Dominions 5 Strategy: Building Thugs and Supercombatants
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- čas přidán 14. 09. 2018
- Thugs and SCs aren't really a necessary part of Dominions; you can play whole games without ever once kitting somebody out to raid, or building an army-killer. In fact many nations can't make true supercombatants at all! But they are one of the parts of the game that I personally find most enjoyable, and it is a little bit tricky to design them - so here's a brief video about the subject!
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I kinda wish you and Lucid had done your videos in different order. It'd have been really funny to have Lucid's video on how to kill supercombatants come out after your video on how to make them.
The thing that I think most new players struggle with, I know I did, is realizing that you can't create an invincible destroyer of worlds.
While true, against AI you can pretty much pull it off. Against players you can alleviate most weaknesses by blending SCs into your armies, too. But yeah, anything can die. But even things like jarls won't die until specifically countered. And those counters do have path requirements. Even if you're countered, you forced your opponent to stop what he's doing in order to counter you, potentially throwing off his plans or setting him behind against another foe, generally weakening him. It may not be the thing that conquers the enemy, but it may just be the thing that causes him to lose.
I would have liked to see the Laestrygonian slaughter an army in the end. Otherwise very good and informative video! I like this strategic stuff.
Great vid, thanks!
One thing.. the Nordic/German pronunciation of the letter "J", as in Jarl or Vanjarl or fjord, is pronounced as an English "Y" (as in yard). So those words sound like 'Yarl', 'Vanyarl', and 'fyord'. Thanks again!
That's how I pronounced it! Well, the first time anyway.
It can kinda depend though, at least here in Sweden a J is sometimes a toned sh-sound.
I mean, its close to correct. Not quite tough.
It's probably a very good idea to have your laestrigonians cast twiceborn before being sent into combat, since 10 death gems is absolutely a bargain for the kind of upkeep free caster that'd give you once they die.
Absolutely. And on an expensive chassis like that if you're throwing this many gems on them you might as well get a twiceborn effect on them. Unless you're super pressed by an invader. Even then it might still be important to delay a turn to get twiceborn on, or at least some other way to bring them back from a fight.
Also seriously worth considering transformation spell if you took reasonable luck scales to go with it. Even just some cheap indie with a thistle mace becoming a hydra or something is worth pushing them into a thug role if the circumstances are right.
In the event you don't get the right chassis they can often luck into increasing their magic paths (even new ones I think) and as an additional benefit 90% of the time you're going to get a cheaper chassis.
In particular casting it on an aquatic mage underwater has a higher chance on average of getting a higher magic path.
Also yes comboing twiceborn and then transformation is another good trick, just to offset any potential deaths that may occur.
I think attica has a good video detailing what results you can get with transformation. There are of course a few bad results aside from the chance of death ( death chance specifically reduced by luck scales), if you roll a foulspawn or get feebleminded it can be well...kinda bad. But if you're rolling the dice on transformation you're probably already taking that into account.
On average you will get a better chassis even with neutral luck scales.
So I think that's worthy of consideration if you have a couple of nature gems available. or nature/death crosspath for twiceborn and transformation.
I don't know if it's worth doing en masse, because it's quite gem intensive when you get over like 10 mages casting it. I'm sure most people have better things to use nature gems on.
But sometimes as a nation you just need a stronger mage to support your armies and you might have some nature gems and the research unlocked.
Worth a spin at the roullette table in my opinion.
Thugs and SCs are almost all I do vs AI. It's so much fun!
Thanks for clarifying thugs and SCs, I think I understand them better! great vid as always~
Thanks for this guide, it helps a lot! I'm still learning the ins and outs of this game but I definitely got a good taste of units that can solo armies while playing a game as EA Rus. Perkulus are wonderful.
Thanks, very enjoyable video.
SCs, Thugs and Mages are what I enjoy the most in what is an all-around great game. So next up a vid on mages who flatten armies with battlefield wide spells, preferably with showcases? :)
I am thinking of Liches with "bone-grinding", "wind of death" or "earthquake" spammers and the like. Or showing off the insane number of ways a queen of elemental air can ruin enemy armies?
Very useful content.
Would also like to see more videos on nation specific super thugs and the more general mini thugs.
I know some nations just don't have the right chassis available while others like giant nations are well suited to churning out thugs.
I've also seen people use "fluffers" or mages who accompany powerful thugs to help them chew through small armies. So that could help nations that have a decent chassis for a thug but their magic paths aren't quite there.
I did not know that multiple regeneration items stacked! thanks for showing that to me!
Would be cool if you started making some more dominions 5 strategy videos again.
I gave the gift of reason to a forest giant then I gave h a shit load of the highest tier equipment. I gave him 2 extra arms so he can use more weapons. I didn't realize those items were unique, so when he walked up and 1 shot the enemies late game titan then promptly died to the massive army (while setting my own army on fire mind you) I was up shots creek
great video im still not that familiar with all the top tier items, especially uniques. Cant you do a video on your optimal outfit for a grigori or maybe seraph - even if its totally unrealistic in MP
It would greatly add to their cost but it could be pretty clutch to empower their air so they could also cloud trapeze. Talk about mayhem, that'll turn armies around quickly or make it easy to snipe a throne
If you get an Air random? Definitely. A Cloud Trapezing Laestragonian would be devastating.
I just wish there was a list of good chasisses, its not like there is that many of them, and a cheatsheet like that would be nice
Do you have a view on which role(s) golems are suited for, and how to equip them for those roles?
i tried them in sp as ea ulm but the main problem with them is that they aren't regenerating from the ring so swarm can kill them pretty reliably even through astral shield...only reliable one i was able to build had the artefact shield that turns everybody around him into stone
Btw, Phaecian captains can use a shroud for regen (Phaecia almost always wants a regen Drakon). That tanks their prot, but it doesn't really matter under mistform, and ofc PD can't really kill a regenerating mistformed thug.*
(3HP regen with a brand, 4 HP if you use a coral blade instead)
*(With a few exceptions, of course. I actually lost an storm captain againt 1 point of MA Xib PD, because their PD commander has a magical weapon).
Prot actually *does* matter under Mistform, because of the change to Mistform a few months back; Mistform can only block 25 damage per hit, and if you go over that level you get hit with whatever's left and then Mistform pops. But the trick is that it only counts *net* damage, meaning damage after prot - so if you have 25 prot and Mistform, you can take a 50-damage critical hit and Mistform will stay up.
Are there special uses for other items you can forge like bane blades? I know crossbows and bows can be good on normal commanders so I'm just curious.
Yeah, a number of weapons have uses in specific circumstances. Wraith Swords, Swords of Quickness, Main Gauches of Parrying, and Holy Scourge can all be useful - Bane Blades less so, unfortunately.
Maybe bane blades will find a niche someday.
the ethereal crossbow together with a bottle of water can make an assassin consireably scary for 15 gems.
The feeblemind bow is a classic anti-SC weapon because it can massively reduce the lifespan of that SC and turns him into a bit of dead weight.
@@vagrant2863 the two-handed variant is an okay tool to make Lemurian Centurions/Consuls a lot stronger both offensively and defensively. Especially with DE where they cost 3 gems (1 with a hammer).
Pretty much all I do when I play single player Dominions is playing around with various concepts for supercombatants, hehe, it's just so fun. Though it does tend to lead to excessive favoring of giant nations. And pretty much always rainbow mage pretenders :p
You mention stealth, but one additional benefit of stealthy thugs is that you can set them to sneak or hide after a successful strike, which stops teleporters, assassins/assassin rituals and you get out even if they move intercepting forces to all possible destinations.
Yep, that's definitely a very nice benny!
Is this definitely the case? A stealthy thug hides before the magic phase? And mind hunt won't work against stealthy units?
How do you actually handle the logistic of changing items though? Do you keep several scouts with items following your SC? After all, while you can counter air elemental spam, if the enemy wait to see you don't have the require item equipped and then cloud trapeze you, your SC will likely die.
First off, if you know the enemy has cloud trapeze air elemental spam you probably need to gear for it anyway.
But using scouts can be viable. One of the problems is that if you get mind hunted, the scout carrying gear gets killed and you lose the gear.
Another solution is to buy province defence. That will happen before the magic phase, and some strategies doesn't work as well when there are more than 1 target.
Finally, you can deploy the SC over forts. After you patrol or break siege you can simply set him back to defend and any teleporters will instead only fight the PD. (or your counter-counter units which you set to patrol)
DrQuakzalver talked about a few potential solutions. Other ways to do it are to hide SCs - by not engaging with them in combat - until major battles where they join up with an army, and then leaving the army in the province while the SC pulls back to re-gear against anticipated counters. That way, anybody trying to Cloud Trapeze or Teleport in to kill the SC also has to deal with what's left of your troops. But generally speaking, this risk is why it's important to try and make your SCs as broadly defended as possible - and to pay attention to your enemy's capabilities. If the enemy is, say, LA Ulm, you don't need to worry much about Shock Resistance because they don't have much Air at all. . . but you *desperately* need high MR, because they have tons of Astral mages who will try to enslave or paralyze you.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Laesgonian SC
A nice related video on countering Super Combatants with Thugs/ other SCs from Lucid:
czcams.com/video/GTgWX8o5fzA/video.html
But isn't a Seraph the best SC? Awe 7, Unsurroundable 5, Resist fire 22, resist shock 22, Fire shield, Invulnerability 30, all slots and they fly. Also pretty good paths with F4A4S4H4 and they are sacred, so you can make them even better with bless. I know they are more expensive and require more research time, but I think they are the best in terms of pure survivability.
Gets mage dueled to death in exchange for ~6 astral 1 mages, statistically speaking. Beware the turkeys of doom.
A Seraph is a Lv 9 summon that costs 144 pearls (Or possibly one wish+GoR). And honestly? They aren't really a lot better that a Laestrigonian. They are more or less in the same weight class as SC's, and the Seraph has a possible weakness to magic duel. (The Seraph is better as a battlefield caster).
All in all, i would value a Seraph above a Laestrigonian, if only for the superior mobility. But the thing is, they aren't really comparable. Seraphs are super expensive, while a Laes only costs 600 gold (Plus some extra cost in the form of unrest and poploss, but still).
You can amass Laestrigonians in a way you could never amass Seraphs.
Seraphs are extremely good, but they can be cheaply killed with Magic Duel and they don't berserk so they can be routed off the field fairly easily when they're on the offensive. They also can't cast Soul Vortex or Earth buffs like Temper Flesh, so despite having very high effective prot they still actually take more damage from many enemies than Laestrygonian Tyrants. Overall I would rate them as being very similar in combat power - more generally useful because of the flight - but of course they are much, much, *much* more expensive and hard to access.
Thank you all for your answers. Especially that lack of berserk is a great point. I should have realized it myself, because I've had my Seraph lose morale even against a pretty weak army. I'll definately try playing with LA Phlegra soon.
I made a danavas the other night with berserk 6 the fenris pelt, two weapons with partial life drain and a Regen fortitude bless. I use him with my army, but he is hilarious with his 32 prot and 6 attacks
Forester Bob approves.
Video on building thugs & SC's and no mention of the Skratti? (Unless I missed it?) A little disappointed to be honest :/ They're not sacred, stealthy and cloud trapezeing like the Vanjarl, but they a little bit cheaper and with a bit more gear can take on small to mid sized armies unless the have good mage support. I think I've seen some classify them as light SC's, which you didn't talk about, but which I understand as a budget SC thats easier to counter than a full SC.
Yeah, I wasn't going into real detail about specific examples because I didn't want the video to be an hour long. Skratti are definitely one of the higher-quality thug chassis around, though.
There's no R in Lystragonian General. You're gonna trigger people.
sr71silver LystRagonian?
DOH!!!!
But seriously it's "less - tre - go - nian" not "lay - stre - gore - ian".
Still good catch. I hate it when I'm an idiot.
I see what you mean now. It is easy to miss stuff