Red vs Brown WALL PLUGS
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- Welcome back to Test Tuesday! Today I'm putting the humble red wall plug or wall anchor against the bigger brown wall plug. These are Fischer anchors - 6mm red and 8mm brown. The red is designed for 4-5mm screws and the brown for 4.5-6mm screws. Let's see which can handle the most weight in a concrete block!
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#Woodworking #Joinery #TestTuesday - Jak na to + styl
I think the only way you could of made these 2 test comparable is to use the max screws in both.
love the new arduino load sampling!! i'm super impressed by the performance of those mighty little red plugs! i was thinking the same thing regarding the 10 gauge screws in the two different plugs. Cheers!
Thanks for doing this, are you going to do the 6mm test on the brown raw plug? Cheers
Cheers! It would be more than what my test rig can handle. 👍
Superb videos, very interesting and informative.
Best place for these type of plugs is the dumpster, unless you're fastening into plaster or concrete. Good video and test!
Interesting results. Im very impressed with your new testing setup.
Cheers Matt! Hope I can get the motorised thing working... not sure I'll have enough torque though. 👍
Nice test jig. I'm a big fan of the Arduino and HX711 combo.
That’s very useful test, surprised the red was so efficient. Thanks for doing these tests Andy very useful data. The manufacturers should do these tests.
Nice to have unbiased opinions 👍😄
Cheers Gary! You can get manufacturer specs for some fittings - Fischer are pretty good, although they don't release specs on the full range - e.g. for red and brown plugs, which are probably the most popular! 👍😀
already seen a lot of comments but I normally use 7mm for brown that it states on the box (different make not fisher) The test on the red plug is unbelievable to think it would take that much pressure. Good to watch keep them coming
Cheers - yeah, there's some 7mm brown plugs and some 8mm... just to confuse matters. 👍😂
Great video, thanks. It would be great if you could try bigger screws in the brown plugs even if you have to stop before it goes off the scale.
great vid andy we all want to see the max on the brown plug but we must realise that its about using the correct fixing for the job. in this case a red plug is holding 10 times what anyone should be putting on one plug. an interesting test would be red plu and diferent sized screws to show the diference
Thanks Andy great video shocked how strong the red plugs are!
But have you ever noticed that when you have a really important item that needs fixing and only has one fixing point the wall is as strong as Victoria sponge!
Brilliant test Andy. Would love to know if there is any difference between the 6mm red and the 6mm grey (nylon) Fischer plugs that are 3 times the price.
The upgrade to the instrumentation is really good and well appreciated. I am looking forward to the video on how the upgrade was implemented and especially the addition of a motor to drive the tightening mechanism. When the force reduces after holding the pull constant it is due to plastic deformation somewhere in the system which will continue until the forces equalise, which may not happen until failure of the joint or may stabalise. In any case he joint has already lost its integrity and failed. At the beginning of the presentation it appeared that you were suggesting that using the same size screw in different size plugs was a fair test. At the end you correctly identified that the ratio of screw diameter to plug diameter is more significant as is the length of screw in the plug. I have used plugs of various makes/colours and always return to the RawlPlug brown type having found them the best in my applications in various substrates. Of course the wall plug is usually used in a situation where the load is applying a sheer force to the screw rather than an axial (pull) force.
Yes defo, fair test as in it's what the manufacturer recommends... I'm not so sure. I certainly won't be using 10ga in a brown plug from now on. 👍😀
Wow. That's my 7mm drill bit going in the bin 😉 I'm sure everyone is gonna chip in with suggestions, but would love to see the maximum you could get from the brown plug. Perhaps a 6x60mm screw in a 6.5mm hole. Can be done and bound to be a much higher reading.
It would be well past what my test rig can handle. 👍
Thanks again for this useful video. Here in Greece, these wall plugs are mainly gray coloured and is the most common way to hang or fasten things on brick or concrete.
I think Fischer's standard 'S type' plugs a grey - think they're the same, these are just colour coded. I think! 👍
I quite simply never use red or brown plugs or indeed blue ones. I only ever use Fischer plugs, they just work. I have never had good results really with red and brown ones. I have also started using Fischer Duo plugs, with no problems so far.
I've been been using them in plaster board for ever, but I know just enough to get into trouble. What would you use to hang something heavier than a picture like a mirror?
Just to clarify, Some Fischer brown plugs are 8mm... and some are 7mm for some reason... Rawlplug brown plugs are 7mm. I'm using Fischer 8mm ones. 👍👍
It'll be off the scale! 😂
Any person who does this for a living knows you fit the plug to the substrate. A Fischer 8mm plug will happily hammer into a 7mm hole or even sometimes a 6mm hole in bad walls or into brick frog spaces or bad cement. A diy'er who goes by the instructions will often experience a plug that spins in the hole!!! A bit of real world experience will tell you a range of plugs and screws are needed to get a decent fixing. What happens if your manufacturer stated hole doesnt fit your plug and screw????? It happens too often to mention. What then? How will a diy'er get over this issue? After all they drilled the correct size hole for the plug.....it SHOULD work right?????
I would hazard a guess that the red plug is similar to a stiletto heel on a floor the force ie the friction is concentrated in a smaller area so the effect is greater.
Holy Moly! That was surprising. Like most diy'ers I think bigger is always better.... until now. Andy you're playing with the rules of the universe here!😂
Im loving how scientifically rigorous your getting with these tests - you're generating genuinely useful data. The data for the brown screws is very tight - as in the three experiments you did all showed very similar results. You can demonstrate this by calculating the 'standard error of the mean' which is related to the standard deviation. Just for fun I already did it, scientists and other nerds write the result like this;
Mean of brown plugs with 10g screw ± standard error of the mean = 106.2 ± 3.18 kg
What this means is that if you did the experiment over and over you would expect 70% of the time the result to be wishing 3.18kg of the average. 95 % of the time it would be within 2 x 3.18 = 6.36kg of the average and 99% of the time it would be within 3 x 3.18 = 9.54 kg of the average. Looking back at your three readings this is the case - so kudos, great data. Im pretty amazed that they were so close!
I haven't done this for your red plugs because like you said - they never actually failed, so all you can reasonable say is that they consistently support >295 kg.
For me, I think the interesting thing here is the effect of screw size. I know you were trying to be fair to both plugs by using the same screw but you probably wouldn't use a 10g screw in a brown plug. Its ok to compare them with different sized screws because your comparing the whole system rather than just the plug. Like you said, chances are you will get a much higher weight tolerance from the brown screws if you use a wider screw because you'll be increasing the frictional force and the pressure inside the screw hole. I think, given the experiments, the lesson will be that you should always use the appropriate screw for the size of hole/plug that your using!
Thanks for the videos, they're awesome!
Cheers bud - really interesting! I think brown with a 12ga would just go off the scale, so not a lot to test... I might do it off-line on the off-chance it's still lower than the red but I reckon could easily by 500kg. 10ga is very common in brown plugs though and within recommended specs. If anything I think manufacturers shouldn't suggest using 5mm screws in brown plugs. 👍😀
The size of the screw vs the size, thickness, diameter of the plugs, was my thoughts too.
Great Tuesday Torture, I mean Test, mate👍
Hi there liked the video!!. I wonder if you can shed some light on my method of something I have tried to do please. I wanted to attach a piece of wood (18mm) on to a brick wall. I used red plugs and 4mm screws. I have seen people drill through the wood with a wood bit then change to the masonary bit of the same size (6mm) , then put the plug into the wood , add the end of the screw then tap in with a hammer, the plug goes through the wood piece and so on. the bit I struggle with is trying to get the plug through the wood into the wall - basically the scews expands it a little and hence does not go through. I cannot make the hole any bigger in the wood of course the screw wont hold and i would go out of line overall. Any clues what it is i am doing wrong? thanks in advance
I moved over to red plugs after your previous video and this just confirms that choice. On an unrelated subject. i would really love to see your video on how you made your portable router table. I can't quite see why said 'if you need to know how it's built you should not be using a router table' or words to that effect! I look forward to your videos and podcasts and your clear and helpful information. Many thanks.
Cheers Clint! Anything specific you want to know about the router table? 👍
So many variables and options it is always hard to pick the best single fixing type. I personally have been only using red plugs in a 5.5mm hole and generally with an 8Ga screw. 10Ga when I really need to make sure it doesn't move or if I hit a mortar line / soft brick. I totally expected the results you got and I am sure the brown plugs could do equally well with a screw that is close to their max size like you used in the red.
I love the testing and the fact that you have had the soldering iron out to do some electronics work.
I guess the thing to mention is shear factor. 90% of installations will be on a vertical surface and so the load will be a shear force. Those screws will stand no chance of reaching those loads I would guess. Nails have the shear strength but none of the pulling load. Would love to see you test the shear of an 8ga screw in a red plug at some point. Just to satisfy my curiosity :)
Again, thanks for the effort you put in to these tests.
Interesting vid - 👍
Can you recommend a fixing for me please? I watched the wall, floor bolt video, I want to attach a metal grinder stand to the floor but if I want to later change it to a different location I don’t want to leave the thread sticking up, I want the threaded female part in the floor to then put the bolts down through the base from the top. Hope that made sense? Any advice appreciated! Cheers
Just the standard wall bolt I showed on my channel the other week should do the job. 👍
Can i use this plugs for plaster boards?
Love the fact you’re fighting the dumb comments with test rig 2.0 this is a slippery slope Andy in 5 years you will be stood outside the large hadron collider with your biscuit jointer 😂 I have used the brown plugs forever for no other reason than habit, love these vids keep them coming👍
Cheers dude! 👍
mainly depends what size SDS bit i have handy tbh.
Ahhh the age old question brown versus red ..... on sites this topic can cause a debate full of banta for hours on end lol great video mate
Ha - folk can get almost evangelical about this! 😂👍
I can’t belive the power of the red plug. That was mad
Crazy isn't it! 👍
You should do a test with the brown plug and a 12 gauge screw for fair comparison
I only use nylon 6 & 7 mm plugs, Fischer (or even Lidl). I find them much better into solid walls.
Just looked at the pack of Fisher brown plugs that we have on the van and they're marked as 7mm. Wonder if theres 2 kinds?
Ha - you're right! 👍 To confuse matters more the Fischer brown plugs from Screwfix are 8mm but the ones from Toolstation are 7mm! Well spotted! 😂
Actually really interesting, never seen anyone actually test rawlplugs (or wallplugs) before!
Cheers bud! 👍
Question:
What's the spec of the screws you are using besides no.10 gauge (4.8mm) ?
Double-Countersunk Head
Carbon Steel
Wax-Coated
Coarse Twin Thread
Thin Shank for Reduced Wood-Split
Thinner Shank for Less Wood-Split
I recon the brown plug would've performed better if it had been tested with the largest acceptable screw size. Test?
Is it possible to test the red one against the fischer combi you showed in the first minutes of this video? (greetings from Holland :-)
Will be testing the Fischer Duo at some point! Big welcome to Holland! 👍😀
Andy, great video, BUT, i am no mathematician but because you are doing a torsion test, the red plus has an advantage because they are nearly at their dia limit ,i am writing this as you say exactly what i am saying.. at 13 mins 😂... oh well can't be bothered to delete it.. keep up the good work, cheers Paul
👍😀
I expected those results, I'd never use that gauge screw in a brown plug, lots of other things come into effect on a real-world fixing though. It's fairly rare when a load is applied that way to a fixing, usually, the back part of the screw is forced against the upper part of the hole and those forces are determined by the depth of the hole and the length of the screw.
What have we learnt, - use the smallest plug possible for your chosen screw size?
Possibly! Also depends a lot on the material too. 👍
Very interesting.
👍👍
If it´s used the ticker screw recomended for each plug the results will be inverted, try and you´ll see.
saludos
Gerardo
Yes, but 300kg is enough for anyone! 😀👍
As others have said, it's not an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps you could use the max screw diameters and weight/scale the results by comparing the results to their manufacturer's recommended max. The larger the void in between the screws and the anchor, the larger the opportunity for failure. Kinda like using a magnum condom when you only got a little willie. 😁
Try a windscreen wiper motor? Low RPM and a lot of torque
Great idea! Don't think it would be enough torque still. I need about 20kg/cm and I think windscreen wiper motors are around 6kg/cm. Hard to find specs though! 👍
@@GosforthHandyman could you use a 4:1 gear between motor and rig?
Gosforth Handyman the old Lucas ones with the worm drive driving a cord over the out put with a weight on the end of the cord would do the job and you could add a heavier weight if you need more torques. 😬😬😬
A loose brown one is always disappointing
Oh dear.... 😂😂😂
Lol
Have I reached the R&D dept at BMW by mistake?
I see v2.1 in the very near future! AvE eat your heart out!👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ha ha - my motor has arrived! 👍😂
Interesting but,what if you used a smaller screw in the red plug? I believe it would give a result similar to the brown one. So really,it is more down to the screw size
Defo, but I'm more intrigued as to the point of brown plugs if the red ones can take such a load?
I mainly use 5 and 6 mm plugs of the same colour
Brown plug needed a bigger screw to expand it out fully
Hole too big and screw too small for the brown plug. I always undersize my holes, can always open it up if the plug is a little too tight and I always use the upper size screw or close to it for each plug.
As you point out though, red plugs are plenty sufficient for most work. I think really the only reason I use brown is simply because the item needs a screw that is too big for a red plug.
I tried a 7mm hole but the plug wouldn't fit in! There are 7mm and 8mm brown plugs. 👍
Ahh that's a bugger then lol. I don't think it helps that masonry bits are very inaccurate as it totally depends on the material you are drilling. Glad it's you doing the testing and not me! :)
I drill 7mm for brown plugs. Maybe you could re-do a test with the smaller hole.
There are some brown plugs that need a 7mm hole and some that need 8mm. These are 8mm ones - I tried 7mm but the plug wouldn't fit in the hole at all. 👍
OK thanks for reply. I did hear you say you should use 8mm, thought it strange that Fisher have gone from the norm.
Andy, isn't a 12g screw SMALLER in diameter than a 10g.... ? 🙄
I use the reds to hold up concrete lintels & brownies for RSJs... 😁
Screw sizes go up, nail sizes go down - go figure! 😀👍
@@GosforthHandyman ...
....my education continues... 😅
Think I'd be a little dubious of the fractures from the other plugs in a single block. I'd expect hairlines throughout that block from a single plug - let alone multiple? Just a though.
Not in these blocks - they're very solid and not really prone to cracking. There are other more brittle blocks though. 👍
Red and brown? What? All you need is a grey Fischer plug!
Just a thought guys, the demo here is a vertical, straight out only test. In real life wouldn't the weight of the (say cupboard on the wall) be somewhat downwards due to it's mass and gravity, not sheer outwards? The tests show some really useful and surprising data and I enjoyed watching it. However, I would have liked to see a test at 90 degrees on a wall, in a more real life type scenario maybe.
Axial loads are much more brutal than shear loads - shear loads would go off the scale so not measurable with my kit. 👍
This is not how a plug is loaded though. It's usually more about the quality of the hole than the quality of the plug. I prefer concrete self tappers for hard walls.
Most plugs are subject to a shear load - so this test is a worst-case axial load. 👍
Well, it looks like I'm switching to red plugs!
Same here! Depends on the material too mind. Might be different in lower density blocks. There's another test... 😂
The mistake people make is that they try to fix into the plaster with short screws. I use a punch to push the plugs well below the surface so that they are in the brick or blockwork and use a longer screw. Always use the biggest screw the plug will take, to test the brown plugs properly you need to use fatter screws.
I always prefer one big fixing to several small ones. I was employed to fix reproduction Victorian bookshelves up in an Oxford college, the walls were old and crumbly. I drilled out the fixings to take a much bigger screw and drilled the walls deep. Mine had two crews holding them up. None of mine fell off. Several of the ones fitted by the contractor, with multiple screws, fell off onto students in their beds underneath. Oops.
Totally agree. In most cases the little red plugs can take a massive load with a decent screw if the plug is at a good depth in the wall. 👍
Here in Belgium, most plugs are grey...
I think Fischer's standard 'S type' plugs a grey - think they're the same, these are just colour coded. I think! 👍
I prefer red sauce.
hello from the future.
What's it like in the future?
5.5 on a red plug.
I normally use 5.5 with an SDS and 6 with combi... with 5mm screw. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman Have you tried the blue ones, they're bigger than a brown. I haven't seen them in them in ages but I think they were a size 8.5 SDS,
Test was bias. The outwards compression of the plug: by the screw is what holds it in place. I can guarantee that your screw is the weak point in the system and not equal between the fixings.
Use as tight a screw as possible to the hole and plug as possible. That way it can’t “lose grip” due to the increased pressure and friction and contact area.
The plastic is simply there to me a median boundary for tons of compression to occur without splitting or spalling the block which the teeth would erode simply on insertion..
You’re taking the piss to state the brown plug (with more boundary for compression. More surface are in contact with the screw and plug.)
Is going to be weaker.
Simply by physics it should be 30% stronger in vertical and lateral loading due to more screw mass and plug contact.
That's exactly what I said in the video.