Angela Merkel Is Destroying Europe
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 12. 2013
- Want to join the debate? Check out the Intelligence Squared website to hear about future live events and podcasts: www.intelligencesquared.com
__________________________
www.intelligencesquared.com/ev...
Filmed at Cadogan Hall on 26th November 2013.
They're calling her the devil. Inflammatory words, no doubt, but Europe has every reason to be livid with the German Chancellor. Angela Merkel is causing needless pain and hardship across Europe, its southern states in particular. The austerity measures she insists that nations like Greece and Portugal adopt are strangling their economies, creating huge unemployment and making it impossible for them to pay off their debts -- the very reason for introducing these measures in the first place. Worse still, even though the IMF and the US are beseeching her to give Europe a desperately needed boost by opening up Germany's economy, she refuses to do so: the plan in Germany now is to run a budget surplus. It's madness. And it's wrong.
That line is becoming the increasingly orthodox take on the crisis in Europe. But is it fair? Is it true? Isn't this just another case of scapegoating Germany for being Europe's largest and best run economy? If Germany now enjoys an unemployment rate of only 5.4% compared to Europe's average of 12%, that's because for the past 15 years it kept real wages down and experienced low rates of growth while in the other nations of the eurozone wages soared and their economies boomed. They recklessly disregarded the rules on fiscal discipline to which they'd signed up on joining the euro. They cocked two fingers at Berlin when it warned them what would happen. And now that it has happened is it all Germany's fault? Angela Merkel isn't destroying Europe: she's one of the few elements that is keeping it together.
![Eminem - Houdini [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/22tVWwmTie8/mqdefault.jpg)
a lot of my friends criticized me in 2015 for calling Merkel the second worst chancellor of Germany; I stand by my assessment in Dec 2022.
we should redo this debate today lets see them defend merkel today
true
1.3 mln people protesting in Berlin.
Impossible!!
Germany was destroyed by merkle 5 years ago
33⁴⁴⁴
Now, a couple of years after, we can clearly say: Yes she did!
you are so stupid loll look at Germans now 2022
How
@@Alanalan12297 : Blackouts to start.
Terrible debate, no-one answered to anyone's points.
shocco Four clowns ?
Hassan's presentation said things that most needed saying - but he destroys the credibility of his beliefs by his ridiculous theatrical and self-absorbed style. Emphasizing every three syllables does NOT place emphasis on important points - it irritates the thinking person, while conveying nothing but his style.
I love that isquared thing. i wish we would have such a thing in german tv! :) all we have is lousy talk masters and a bunch of ever same guests debating in snorr fests.
oh and yes, she IS destroying europe. german wages are too low and our internal market is not consuming enough. i say, give greece a second chace, we also got one. and made the best out of it. i want the EU to succeed.
Germany had lost the war and had to pay a lot of reparations. Greece didnt have to pay reparations so it should be in a better economic position than Germany. Whats going on?
Mehdi Hasan may make some occasional valid points, but the fact that his Islamist ideology is well known and that he campaigns vigorously for the islamisation of the UK and against any and every dissenting voices. He's also an insufferable prick who bases most of his arguments around emotion i might add
This is seriously depressing to watch. People seriously believe that they are bailing out Greece. They should ask themselves... who lent all the money to Greece in the first place.
...or more like....why was such a financially poorly-governed country ever allowed to join the eurozone in the first place?
You can hardly believe the head EU honchos in the EU parliament, did not even have an inkling about how the Greek's Books were being cooked before-hand?
elizabeth sheffield
There's no problem with them being in the EU. The problem is that many northern banks decided to irresponsibly lend a lot of money to the Greek state. And thanks to the euro, they could flood Greece with cheap loans without worrying about any exchange rate problems. The bankers got millions bonuses every time they made a loan, and they really didn't care if they turned out to be bad loans. And who are we bailing out now? The banks of course.
Greece did not have had the finances to support all those loans, so they should never have been lent all that money in the first place. I would not lend money to Greece. So then why the hell did my bank?
...exactly so.....the greedy but canny Bankers saw their chance to make a profit out of a poor country that couldn't even run "a piss up in a brewery".
If you're running a country like a home, your home has a border in the form of walls, with an entrance you control, you don't let strangers in your home. I guess the millions of migrants that poured into Europe is best not to mention. I find it strange that if natives complain it's always called racism or xenophobia...were the American Indians and the aborigines racist too...the natives of all countries must be respected and counted or you're storing up social unrest.
Don't worry, when it all goes so wrong and everyone is scratching each others eyes out, there won't be a political figure in sight.
Heh, heh! Here's one prediction that hasn't panned out!
Despite so much going wrong, politicians are still very much in evidence ----busily pointing fingers at each other as they try to deflect blame from themselves.
I'd have taken a Merkel over Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and probably the next clown to reside at No.10 too.
It's good that so many young people are for the motion. It's shows wisdom beyond their years.
Pretty English girl at the end, when you say "we" at the end, its including Greece. Back then when we bailed out Germany. And we did not kill anybody.
I'm not an admirer of Merkel or anything, but to cast her as the sole Big Bad of the crisis is just childish. She's duty-bound to act in a way that is best for her people, and she's doing what she thinks is best. Ockrent and Bevoor were on point.
Euclid Tsakalotos was arguing desperately in favor of what he thinks will benefit his country the most. Unfortunately the position of the bailout-seeker is difficult to take while still maintaining any sort of pride or righteousness. His case wasn't helped by Mehdi Hassan making a complete ass of himself...yet again. Emotionally charged and over-decorated arguments full of empty rhetoric and completely lacking in seriousness. How is this disingenuous halfwit even considered employable?
Horton heard The Doctor
She has been doing things only good for refugeesci or illegal immigrants.
She is the reason britain left. Forcing mass migration and hundred million refugees invading european nations.
I don't think so. I thought many British people, specifically the Brexiters, actually prefer the blue passports (= Take Back Control!)!. :)
The Greek guy is such an abrasive individual. He's like a one trick pony just repeating "Marshall plan Marshall plan!" The ONLY likeness between Germany and Greece is that both countries had large debt, there is NOT other similarity between the 2 situations. Also how about he stop and think what he's saying, every time a country gets into massive debt others should just wipe that debt/bail them out then carry on as before. What if everyone in the world did that? Who would do the bailing out then?
Why the hell was Islamic immigration not brought up? No wonder the notion lost.
It was filmed before her even more insane outburst of the migration acceptance was made, that's why. Were the debate be held today, or even in the last 11 months...
28:52, no it didn’t. Real wages decreased, quality of life decreased, and the upward mobility has been crapped on because capitalism, not just in it’s neo liberal form requires exploitation, poverty, and rigid unemployment
Medhi Hassan is revealing how radical he has become and now he is not different than the most radical preachers.
*****
That's a a bit to harsh, but he is wrong at one point. Germans do work more than greek people. Where does he get his figures from?
Betty Swallox Lol nice prejudice there. You're funny.
Aori Hanazari nice prejudice from you too. but you are not funny
Tell me how I am prejudice. Have I called her and her "people" borderline or actual lunatics?
***** Tell me how I am prejudiced. Have I called her and her "people" borderline or actual lunatics?
If nobody likes what Germany wants, then why all do what Germany wants? This is totally crazy.
My friend and his family come from Greece, and what he and they have told me is that many civil servants in Greece work less hours, and retire quite young. This has been a big problem with the country's financial woes.I am wondering how Merkel would be received by any of the panel today? Personally, I think she is destroying the Germany and the EU.
Yes she is
the world should take heed that Germany has been a target of racial hatred by a hidden hand. As the world blames Germany consistently for wars they did not start. We all know Germany was taken over by wealthy oligarchs who hate Christians, and Germany was a devote Christian nation. Merkel is apart of that oligarchal control system. @@sabejreid2072
Relative to the starting poll "For" the motion had a greater increase than "Against" had. 27,8% (23/18) increase vs 26,4% (67/53).
Just noting the percentage points gain doesn't give an accurate representation.
Spending only results in growth if the spender is wise enough to save in times of plenty. This where so many politicians go wrong. They end up getting in trouble by not understanding Keynesian economic principles. they forget the saving and just want to spend. This usually always ends up with extreme debt.
just because the Marshallplan was mentioned several times towards the end and one woman said something which was just wrong. At 42:42 she says that '''we'' ( I guess she was referring to the UK) granted money to Germany. That is wrong, in fact the UK got the most money out from the Marshall plan.
As a german liberal, I do not agree with everything Ms. Merkel does in her position as german chancellor, especially in the domestic policy. But I think in regards to the European policy and the Euro-crisis she is doing important and right decisions.
Some facts. Greece was granted debt cuts already twice. In May 2010 with 110bn Euro paid to bail Greece out and in October 2011 where the debts where cut about 50% converting existing bonds into new loans by the debitors. The whole debate between Greece and their debitors is NOT about cutting debts. It is about Greece looking to change the agreements that they made to get a bail out in the first place.
Greeces problem is not that they cant pay back the loans, they cant pay the interest rate after the crisis hit the globe. They were loaning money and paying europes interest rate, not greeces, thats why they got away with deficit. So the whole "spending is good - austerity is bad" approach was already proven wrong during the last decades where Greece indeed was spending more than they earned. And the economists answer to that is to spend more? I dont get it.
Germany and by the way all european countries including the Greeks themselves already paid to keep the greek household afloat. The austerity measures are not there to satisfy german taxpayers but the debitors who raised interest rates for new loans to Greece in the first place. People tend to forget that Greece does not owe money to Germany. The international banks on the money markets are the ones getting the money. The Deutsche Bank is one of them but people tend to believe somehow they are ran by german taxpayers which is ridiculous. The Deutsche Bank despite its name is not a german federal bank. Its a private bank with international shareholders.
And now: Germany is dead, the EU is dying!
Which reality are you living in?
@@coalhunt planet earth, the EU belongs back in the 1950s
@@coalhunt it is dying are you living in reality?
i hear "Marshal Plan " "Marshal Plan" .... WHAT "Marshal Plan" ? there was no "Marshal Plan" for Germany. the whole "Marshal Plan" was 1.Propaganda 2. Tobacco and cotton (heavely overpriced US-overproduction) 3. the War in Korea 4. the London Conference. not 1 single dollar went from the US to Germany. but many Dollars from Germany to the US. the "Marshal Plan" was no help it was a burden for Germany. it was Reparation in a special manner
Always remember this: when at war with a culture that is subnormal to your own superior one, then invite that enemy into your midst and into your country. Then make sure you have no control over your open borders, so that you allow your enemy to come in their millions. In this way you appease your enemy and eventually will become like them. Given enough time your enemy will take over your once great nation. Does this Make sense? No! So why is Europe doing exactly this?
+Paul Manning Secret deals, probably. It is frightening to know that our leaders crave our demise for whatever their personal financial gain.
Correct You would think the Germans would be sick of genetically engineering by now 😮 but merkles doing it again
Haha, interesting to see this in January 2015 after a Syriza win. I'd like to see the debate take place again now, see if people have reconsidered their positions.
I appear to have woken up in an alternate universe, where I find myself agreeing with Mehdi Hasan.
Politicians need to pull the RAG OUT OF THEIR ASS and quit doing what "THEY THINK" and start representing
THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE!
Dear god there is no end to people’s stupidity - I don’t recall hearing how this audience was chosen even though the chairman said he would disclose that information!
...and this debate pre-dates Merkel's open invitation to people of an alien religion and culture...
"Alien" how funny, your low level of intelligence seems quite alien to me if I be honest.
First person asking a question hits the nail right on the head. Why can’t some countries tax their rich? Btw the Greeks are still paying of the loan they got from the UK under force. But the greek prof works in England so can’t attack the hand that feeds him.
Ironically SHE is most hated now in Europe and in Germany. She has to step down soon as Chancellor or risk a crisis in Germany unparalleled since the Weimar Republic!
It's so annoying to hear intellectual brits talking about the European Union. On the surface they say things like "give up the euro" and "the E. U. has failed" but what they're really thinking is "haha we didn't get the euro and that's the right decision, right?" and "we're part of the E. U. but not really you see, we're on an island, we're not like those stupid continentals".
M akis
how could Germany not have been the strongest nation in Europe? it has consistently been the keystone of Europe's industry and economy in one form or another for more than a hundred years. Had Germany won WWI we would have seen the Eurozone happen in the early 1900s but with obvious Imperial overtones. One cannot subtract Germany from Europe, it is simply an unrealistic proposition.
Paul Spittle
...Never thought I'd ever say........thank God for Brown!
Paul Spittle
...to be very honest Paul, I didn't pay much attention to politics until the Bliar Government "got in" - that's when the scales very quickly fell from my eyes, realising just where those appeasing apologist-champagne-socialist- politicians were leading us - in particular the illegal Iraq war that that evil creature lied us into. Now we, as a nation, are now even more hated all over the world. Poor old "Joe Public " taken on one enormous self-serving- trip by an evil Bliar government who couldn't believe their luck at getting in and going on to appease the most hated dictators/leaders to gain so-called kudos around the world and being truthful to no-one. - absolutely disgraceful.
I should read up about the Major years but I do remember him being castigated for signing the Mastricht Agreement (whatever that was). Please do enlighten me :>
Paul Spittle
Thanks for that .now you got me wondering. who Nigel Farage's spin doctor is? do you think he has one?
Paul Spittle
thank you Paul - will do
It mostly shocks me that this discussion is more than two years ago !
You've really got to how those who consider themselves well to do, intellectual and educated manage to vote against the future.
Part of we wants to cry when it comes to the voting for most Int^2 debates, but another part is just smug.
The answer to the motion can quite aptly be summed up when the French lady responds that it would be an utter disaster for the German economy to leave the Euro, or visa versa, due to the fact the change in interest rates would break the German economy. This is, an admission that German's economic success has been produced on the back on favorable interest rates which Germany alone benefits from, but the Euro zone collectively makes up. If this is the case, then its clear that Germany is at fault in its handling of the collective currency which other countries are bound by.
Then 2 years later, Merkel forgot that borders exist at the boundary of Europe. Why she thought that the world should just be the Schengen zone is beyond me.
You forgot to mention the Euro was forced onto Germany by Britain, France etc for unification.
Which is funny how people then twist that to blame Germany.
Mehdi Hassan is a devious talking tool. Why is he on this panel?
Slightly random question, but does anyone know the title of the intro track/song played at the beginning of the video? I have a feeling it's from a classical piece, but Shazam couldn't recognize it :(
Thanks! I got that from Shazam as well, but I searched for it on youtube and google to listen to a full piece, but couldn't find anything....
Thank you!
The For side increased it's support by a greater percentage than the Against side, and this before the migrant crisis that has a greater chance of breaking up the EU in its present form than the still failing Euro.
Anno 2015 one can add that Merkel not only is too hard on Greece, but also too soft on Russia.
Medhi Hassan would have changed his mind on Merkel if this debate was held now, after she let 1 million of his fellow Muslims into Germany.
Germany wasn't punished? What about loosing half the country?
Germany has been chief beneficiary of the Euro, at the expense of the Med. The Euro is undervalued for Germany, boosting its exports. It is overvalued for the Med, stifling their exports. The alleged profligacy if the Med prior to 2008 was enabled by German and French banks making massive loans. The current "bailouts" for Greece are only to help German banks.
Edited too heavily perhaps. The whole thing is full of 3 second soundbites that go unresolved. And the motion is poor, pushing for more clicks I suppose.
Mehdi Hasan cannot speak publicly for toffee, awful debating style, unwatchable
Fatima Merkel has a lot to answer for Portugal is the next to fall
As a german I am digusted and enraged by the racist notion, that germans are somehow more hard working than greek people and I wonder why no one asked the very revealing question of why higher taxes for the rich was not at all one of the demands from the Troika. All their austerity demands were sole aimed at the poor.
Like Yanis Varoufakis once said: "There are poeple trying to convince you that all the ants live in the north and all the grasshoppers live in the south." and this racist thinking was very obvious in this whole debate about greece, wich is why it pissed me off so much! I hate, that there was not one german in the audience of this particular debate, that argued for the notion. And germans wonder why they are still percieved as nazis.
The number one defensive argument of a loser. "Nobody's perfect!"
everyone just likes to blame the germans because they are in fact more superior in many areas of technology, political policies, and just general quality of life. merkel is not responsible for europe, merkel is responsible for germany, and shes doing a hell of a good job.
He says Greece was punished! Is it punishment to be asked to pay your debts and make good on your promises? It's also worthwhile to point out that Germany was rebuilding from a devastating war while Greece is dealing with the consequences of an idiotic spending spree!
Rebuilding from a defastating war where your leaders have gassed so many people is more understandable, the citisens were more innocent victims than when you had had a government that spend to much , better we should have gassed a lot of people, than we would have been worthy to get help to rebuild our country?
Dimitris Damilos
Yes this i find the most astonishing of all human life is not worth nothing to most of the Europeans. That they are able to buy a product is more important to them, I am not saying that the Greeks are any better here, they are just in the situation that they are the ones who are going to die, for me this shows that more than anything we have a spiritual problem, a problem of egoism, where a human life is reduced to being a marketable product or not, this is not an understanding of what has value, this is a lack of having values.
olga de weger Their leaders have not gassed anyone, those responsible for war crimes and those who voted for them are dead, so the German people bear no guilt.
The Greeks, however, voted for the corrupt parties, knowing full well that they overspent and wasted tons of money. And many Greeks benefited, not just elites, by not paying in their taxes. So don't blame everything on the rich and on foreigners!
Dimitris Damilos If the Greeks had paid their taxes they would have run very much smaller deficits and not needed to borrow from those countries whose citizens do pay their taxes.
In 60 years the Greeks should not be punished for what this generation has done, but this generation has to accepts responsibility for its actions here and now.
Dimitris Damilos
Yes i want you to explain in detail, for everybody here.
this video is edited.. what were the editors political persuasions ?
Europe, even Greece still seems to be here 🤣
I really appreciate this discussion, and also the smart of the contributors from the audience. I am actually surprised at the level of information and intelligence of several if not all people from the audience who were asking questions to the panel. I am truly in favor of Europe as I studied 'European Integration' on top of my law studies and I believe in Europe as an idea.
We need Europe as a balancing factor against the opposition USA-RUSSIA which is dangerous for world peace. This is a strategic point of view, but there are humanitarian factors, too. Think only of Ukraine and Palestine, if not the problem of Syrian refugees.
While the United States are favoring conflictual views and strategies, Europe and especially Germany and France serve as leader nations to bring about more conflict-solution, more cooperation and less ideological trash.
I really want to emphasize that we cannot achieve a political union of the EU as it was achieved in the foundation of the United States if we continue our endless and unwholesome infighting in Europe. We are responsible as Europeans to look beyond our national borders and serve a cause much greater than our national identities. This cause is not Europe, not even … it is the cause of World Peace after all.
I don’t think Germany is owed money at all. I would think it is the other way around. Germany owes us.
Hi Medhi Hasan Are you already on the moral high ground of islam ?
Check out youtube " Non muslims live like animals "
Considering how well she’s been doing since .. and how shitty pathetic Little Britain’s been, this hasn’t aged well.
As a german I say that the first speaker is right. I really disagree with the cold track our government is on concerning financial politics in Europe.
I agree with the historian, that the European Union caused the crisis, I think their goal to become a worldpower to be reckoned with like the US, Russia, and China was their main goal, and that there would be no war inbetween the states a mere way of confincing countries to join, since only with a big group of countries you become this powerfull force, not just with a few. Greece had the threat of a Turkisch invasion so had every reason of wanting to feel safe in a EU. Greece had made an industry for itself called tourism, this included building a lot, importing a lot. Greeks got used to foreign products even to bottled water. When the Euro came the touristindustry collapsed, with that also the building industry, and Greece was left with a big import, hardly any export and with a message that is comparable with a wallstreetbubble, take a loan, it is ok we are growing now. The Greed for power of the EU did promote this message (and it still does, even when we see the opposite happening,you benefit from becoming a EU member, it is a great opportunity bla bla) it did not look at the Greek books with care, and thanks to Goldman Sachs the European Union grew a country bigger.
Now Greece has to many civil servants, parties put their own voters in well payed civil jobs, but also this is a religious country and priests are civil servants too.
For Greece to become an industrialised country it needs to be competible with other European countries, most of the money was invested in the tourist industry, not in machines and massproduction of artikles and food. With the falling of the touristindustry the remaining Greek industry collapsed too. That Greece was mismanaged is absolutely true, but so was the EU, and a humanitarian crisis around the corner now ,this will mean no debt will ever get payed, deaths will fall, hunger will spread, people flee, and there will be no jobs at all for anybody. Greece needs to get less civil servants, therefore less need for so many rules and money payed on papers to start a bisness,and it needs an investment, instead of selling everything off that still has some profit in it. It is ludacrous to say to Greece they have to become competitive to Germany, and why did Greece need a loan to bail out foreign banks like German banks, can they not bail out their own bank and loan us less, these loans are with interest you know! Instead aquaponics could be promoted, solar energy (not taxed), there should be rules for how big a shop is allowed to be, bigger than a certain m2 should be a wholesale. This will create neighbourhood-shops, work for a lot of people, who become taxpayers. Greece and all the other countries in big problems should be allowed to print their own money to pay their civil servants with and keep the Euro for their in and export, like China has the dollar. This will safe human lives, and the need for further loans which burdens the porer people in countries like Germany most, and the Euro's not payed can be used to pay off the loans, the amount of money that would be printed should be enough to give everybody in Greece a decent life. The rich should be forced to pay their fair share of taxes all over Europe, because this needs to be tackled sooner or later, I would actually like a maximum income in Europe, also for politicians for every country in the EU and the EU politicians. And getting rid of all these astronomical benefits and extra's. Instead of becoming more compeitive we should become more selfsufficient. Because a belief in consuming not only ruines the planets recources, but also when it makes people poorer and poorer who are you going to sell your products to, it ends somewhere. Even when i only look at the comments here below i see so much racism, once a nazi always a nazi, the muslims, the jews, the zionists, lazy Greeks. The opposite of a Union, what i see is that people will send you 10 euro when you have a big belly from undernourishment and they see a child that does not even have the strength to stand up, but they feel no bad at all to take from you what they can untill you are in that position. What are we cousing here to happen i want to ask. Why do we not look for different answers that can safe life. Is money more important, what have we become. So is Merkel destroying Europe, well no only part of Europe, since she is as stubburn as the European Union. She could promote Greek products in Germany, lowering with this the German productivity a bit, helping this Greek competitiveness she says Greece has to become along a bit, she could promote tourism to Greece, that would be help. Picking the last feather of a chicken and than not giving it food means you do not care if the chicken dies.
When people say debt should be payed, they seem not to understand that they will not get their money back with interest and that is that, they will have to pay endless loans, loans to pay the interest even. We in Greece are in a hole, we want to stop digging.
The EU could focus on getting rid of corruption in Europe, instead of their powerpolitics.
I want everybody to know, lives can be safed, and that that should be the topic of how we can do that, maybe a little more humanity is needed.
8:43 I don't think that Germans appreciate her leadership. She is just always very polite and friendly trying to integrate several different political opinions which actually contradict themselves. With this strategy she deactivates all kind of different political enemies because she adopts all kind of different positions of political parties but never really follows those ideas cordially. So, her statements are always very foggy and uncertain and most people think she is okay and there doesn't seem to be an alternative. But hardly no one says: OMG she is so charismatic and she has great visions, ideas and projects for the future. She is just the chancellor for years and people got used to her.
I was very surprised by the results. I went from against to for during the course of the debate.
I would like to safe the world, i would like to end suffering, but only if it does not cost me any money.
Shows how dumb they are that they think she is doing any good for Europe or even Germany! She was the worst chancellor ever! You know same stereotype we brainwashed to choose women even if she is evil!
Chancellor Merkel is one of the best World Leaders and she’s has most certainly not destroyed Europe.
"Hi, name's Nick" *Hello Nick*. "I live in London, but I was born in Australia". Two questions: 1) How is that, in the slightest way, relevant? 2) Who gives a shit?
maybe it's important to note that the wealth of Northern Europe isn't just financial, or not just contemporary financial wealth.
A thousand years of prosperity in the north combined with hi-tech infrastructure hundreds of years of literacy and education are the primary source of wealth.
The whole reason Europe let the struggling Spain and Greece into the EU is to prevent them from having generations of poverty and to help them with our wealth as equals instead of subservients. Now it is time for the wealthier north to deliver on their promise even if their money is largely planned to be invested in middle-class and big-business subsidies (without interest or possible yield at the end of these investments) Merkel is not a Nazi but we aren't living in those days anymore either.
The EU was founded to prevent war and suffering through sharing wealth and resources Northern Europeans should remember that and stop getting fat and complacent.
PS. The war has been over for 60 years. Move on!
A difficult proposition to defend - language like 'destroying'. I think both sides made valid points - not so much Okrent, but the other three.
Hindsight has shown it true but not for the reason given. The intellectuals are wrong so often it is amazing.
Not that hypocrite mehdi.
Today there would be a very much different outcome.
Euclid might be the most insane person I've ever had the displeasure of listening to. Germany and Japan were ravaged by fighting a war they lost and wracked with debt afterwards. Within a 30-40 year span the economies recovered and had become dominant in terms of design and production. Just look at the automotive world they both took it by storm less than 1/2 a generation after losing the most damaging and expensive war to that point in history.
It's a pretty simple storyline here Euclid you muppet. Greece took massive loans it didn't need and had no hope of paying back and couldn't manipulate their currency to get out of it. They couldn't grow their economy and modernize for a variety of reasons and now they are in deep shit! It was mismanaged by politicians and bankers within Greece who were either incompetent or corrupt. Portugal and Ireland were also given tough austerity programmes. But their economies suffered mild depression, while the Greek economy collapsed. Your countrymen took money they couldn't pay back to grow an economy that didn't exist. Now you want to whine about it and say you shouldn't have to pay it back. Sorry Euclid next window please.
I'm German and I'd consider myself left wing-ish and euroskeptic.
I think the crisis was caused by the misconstruction of the Euro (one currency for several sovereign countries), the financial crisis of 2008 which in turn was caused by earlier neoliberal deregulation policies all over the western world, and by widespread tax evasion in some European countries. Merkel is obviously not to blame for any of these.
BUT she is to blame for handling them wrongly, for all the reasons that Mr. Hasan stated in his speech very eloquently. She fails to address any of the actual causes of the crisis, instead she is caught in neoliberal reflexes, just the same as - as was pointed out - the rest of the German political elite are. Housewives savings logic must not be applied to national economics (Thatcher comitted the same error in her days). The primary goal of any politics should be the well-being of the people, not the adherence to some abstract set of rules, at least not when that goes at the cost of general welfare. And the crisis should be handled with tact and sensitivity towards national feelings and historical biases, which Merkel completely lacks.
Strangely, I appreciate two people from the both sides: Tzakalotos and Beevor! I would vote in favor of the motion!
Weird debate. Taking bundles of questions at a time and leaving the bulk of them unanswered, and then there's the tally at the end where Against wins. I wonder about the demographic breakdown of that vote...
And, as usual, most of the discussion is about Greece, which is a complete outlier and has nothing to do with the other crisis countries.
So what people think now in 2015 about Merkel and the Germans?Especially with the refugee situation and many German feel not happy with Merkel open door policy?
Germany was never "The Sick Man of Europe". That name was given to Turkey over 100 years ago.
The Greeks have got money at least the greek shipping companies do. For every 10 ships the dockyards build 3 go to the greeks. Tussipratzi should be looking there, but he´s afraid to.
It isn't her. It's Schaubler.
Looking back at that topic, these were the times long before the "refugee crisis" in Europe and Germany. The "Euro Crisis" was claimed to be solved, as was the "Financial Crisis" before. Ideas to "tax the rich" and tax transactions on the financial market seem to have fallen under the table, while Europe -- or more precisely: European Politicians -- want to bring in the US-Economy by establishing TTIP and CETA, which lead to a secondary justice system for the economy itself.
This motion hasn't been debated well, as the claims against Merkel were based on her political course of actions in the crisis, while the opposing side just try to debunk her responsibility -- in that very crisis! -- as the fault of having the EURO in the first place. That does not help at all!
The problem stands and solutions have to be found. But this debate had no space for it, even though both sides had offered a ground for it.
As for today, Merkel's course of actions in terms of "All refugees are welcome here" again splits the country, enabled right wing extremists to grow and gain strength, and there is no real argument on about how to handle the roots of the problems.
Anyone on Facebook must be blind not to see the "Cause: Bombing, weapons exports, etc. -> Reaction: Refugees" postings.
To be clear: No one would want to stay in a place that has been in war or a warlike state for so long. Anyone would save themselves and their beloved.
Nevertheless: An accusation does not help, if it does not come with a solution. And I'm not promoting reactionary action to simply stop what you are doing or do the exact opposite. Anyone with a right mind should look at the country, look at the world, and try to find the deeper connections and look ahead in the future.
Anyone with the right mind should see, you should not bite more than you can chew. You should not spend more money than you can repay. But in the past, that has been the foundation of any western country, to produce wealth out of loan. Loan to banks! And governments DO argue with banks about their conditions to strengthen their currency, to get the best of it NOW -- not necessarily for the future.
There come in the claims like "We need another war to start from zero", because what we've learned after the "Financial Crisis" was: We know of the problems, but we (a) don't know what to do about it, gain independence from that privatized financial market, and / or (b) we just do not care....
It seems like you have thought this through pretty well, I came to a similiar conclusion, well I wouldn't really call it much of a conclusion but it is quite a good summary, while we all will have our biases as humans, there is evidently little bias in what you've wrote and I happen to agree with most of them.
It is quite rare to find people who actually take the time to understand most thing properly.
Merkel is not the problem, Schauble is.
It's funny to hear the French journalist calling "Centre Parties", "Extreme Right". I wonder if that indicates how far "Left" she really is.
That one did not age well. :D
Lmao this aged quite bad
["Okay the new result is in, now what?"]
I perfectly agree, I have nothing against her personally, politically has been a tornado for the European Community.
Someone who opens her speech with an excuse (the US and British post WW2 forced her to do it) also she goes from one negative to another and gives no benefits to Europe of Germanys actions, a total apologist for the EUs failure at every level.
Unbelieveable. Greece now is in no way compareable to post-war Germany. Germany had the knowledege, the productivity and an efficient administrative system. They were only lacking capital. Now it does not take an economic expert to see that every cent put into that system would result in multiple times the original investment. Greece has average knowledge, low productivity, a deeply currupt administrative system and a welfare state that is way to big for the country's actual income. Furthermore hardly anybody pays the amount of taxes they should pay after their tax code. Not too long ago a Greek citizen that got interviewed said that from his income 1/3 goes to taxes, 1/3 to bribes and 1/3 is for living. When you go to a doctor in Greece you first have to put some money on the table or he won't even consider to accept you as a patient. That's the system they are talking about.
Dokters do take you as a patient, some people give dokters money under the table in hospitals, so they will be looked after better, there is a new government now, who have a big job in changing the country ahead of them, when all their time will be taken up by the discussion of the loans they will not get the time to do the other jobs like fighting corruption, i myself never payed a bribe here in Greece, and nobody ever refused me or asked for a bribe, it does happen i know, also Germany had this well organised system during the second world war we can see at the mountains of teeth we found afterwards, all nicely organised in a pile, we did not like their abillity to organise that well then, Not to rub Germans past in their noses, I am saying this here for another reason, in the second world war Germany had a lot wrong with them, their disrespect for human life, but with that which i find the biggest flaw of all, if they did not know already than Hitler had drilled them in being well organised, therefore true a more safe investment, you get your loans back, but wait even though they did well and were well organised they did not pay their loans back, how come? You are right that Greece needs to fight the corruption, new ways of income need to be found for Greece, we could legalise mariuana, since we have the best climate here in Europe for that stuff, and it would be a great export product, with all those stones in the ground we are not a country for mass- production, but we could focus on high quality ecological produce, and solar-energy, hydroponics etc. But like always we are dependent on what the government thinks we need to do, that there is a new government now, gives us some hope, their first task though is to talk to Europe, to make sure nobody will die here.
Austerity doesn't work. It hasn't & 2.5years later it still isn't. Even the IMF, one of the "Troika" now admits that some of the Greek debt will need to be written off to avoid default. The Eurozone is slowly getting worse, not better.
Of course, Merkel's mishandling of the migration crisis has made it clear that while she's been a blessing for Germany, she's terrible at leading the EU.
The "For" debaters argued their cases poorly but their arguments were sound as we are starting to find out...
Apart from the recession, precariousness in jobs, the migrants crisis, the rise of the right allied with the far-right across all the continent and Brexit, which make strong points for the validity of the motion (as every commentator here supports), we all know that the said mismanagement alluded by the French journalist isn't not only clumsy but fake, as for instance Spanish banks are some of the strongest in a world level up to date, or Portugal left the recession thank to public spending... Greece has been a functional disaster for decades, but curiously corrupted and financed by German and American banks (the same American banks that started the 2008 crisis of the sub-primes that started the chaos of the last decade). Not to say, that Spain rather than faking figures to enter the Euro, was actually in 2000 the only country that fulfilled the conditions set by the European Central Bank (which France for example didn't), apart from having back then an economic growth higher than a 3%. Also, it isn't that Germany can decide by law on the economic affairs of other countries, but that the European Central Bank adopted the monetary policy of the Bundesbank, imposing to all the eurozone the inflation rate that makes German economy stable, as it is a model designed for Germany to be the productive titan of Europe with a possitive balance of payments, in a word, dumping, administered by the unbalanced distribution of decission power at the European Council, an organ superior to the European Parliament, and in turn superseeded by the European Central Bank, also allied with the International Monetary Fund in that thing called "the Troika"... History has proven the Huffington Post's journalist and Anthony Beevor damn right, to the disgrace of our continent and the whole world...
Zooey Historian but Merkel is the one that is forcing country’s to continue using the Euro. Sorry but she is to blame. There is another reason you are against the motion. Markel knows the Euro do not suit all MEMBER State and angler Merkel is calling the tune. She just demanded all EU Members States must use the Euro so how can you blame her. Merkel owes Britain billions of money. No you are wrong why is she demanding all Member States must convert to the Euro.
2013 and whats changed since?
I don't understand the German guilt thing most of you are spewing, I am sure in the annals of history groups, tribes, nationalities have stains in their hands. So lets not act, that we are all pure and clean(morally speaking). In addition, does she look like the type to be guilty over something she doesn't have control over?
Christine Ockrent, who is paying you to say that Spain sconomy is "picking up"? www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/gdp Spain GDP is still lower than it was in 2012!
There's a lot more to politics then just immigration. (I am against mass immigration but people hear stories of a handful of terrible Muslims and sweep all 1 billion of them with the same brush and demand that they should be stopped). It can not be denied that Germany is economically strong because of her leadership
Merkel is an iron lady in europe like Thatcher in the past and so she build up an iron Bismark Germany in europe! Why not? Europe had only success if in the mid of europe is and stands an iron germany that works like a motor to bring motion future and mony to europe - this is what europe needs and what europe makes stronger and stronger againt other powerbolcs like the USA, India, China or Brasil: THe iron Lady behind an iron Bismark Germany!
But what is if germany is weak???? If germany is weak than europe is weak - is this a better future for europe and the europeans??= Is a stronger USA, a stronger China a stronger India better for europe if europe is weak. Today europe can dominate the world if europe united - but what is if each european county is isolated?
NO!
So - better we follow the iron lady and iron Bismark Germany so we have success and strong economy!
لا اسمح لأحد أن يتاجر باسم قائد قطار الأحمر في الاتحاد الأوربي خصوصا ومرورا بجمهوربات السوفياتية السابقة وحلف اورسو السابق وانتهاء بأوروبا الشرقية وفي كل بقعة من بقاع العالم ..
....
Aww she would vote against it. French and German are leading it. A load of bollox. Germany took everything from Britain and continue taking it so do try to make us believe that. We do read our History.
time to quit this EU joke
i found this debate quite infuriating