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Do Older Lifters Need Less Training Volume? Do You Need More? Why Harder Isn't Always Better!
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2022
- A new Q/A is here from our March 2022 seminar in Philadelphia, PA at Warhorse Barbell Club.
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Hey guys , thanks for putting this together for us listeners . My only contention is that older people will not recuperate in the same time frame as younger ones . This is why the opposing view says less volume as you age .
If I (49) attempt to do what I did in my 20’s , it takes about 3 days longer to recover than back then . For many reasons , the body cannot repair itself like it did before .
Never been a volume trainer but whenever I decide to follow some of these training programs , the result is looking flat , weaker performances in the gym , feeling fatigued and sore and all desire for self improvement disappears .
I personally can only do 1-2 all out sets with 2 different exercises (after warmups ) , 1-2 times a week !
Maybe the fact that I’m in construction as a profession has something to do with it . All I know is that I’ve been training since 15 years old and I only grow muscle when workouts are short instead of useless junk sets that offer no stimulation .
I think this age old argument has everything to do with peoples innate recuperative abilities which may be determined by genetics .
Thats just my 2 cents . Take care !
Started lifting in early 50's, that was 10 years ago. For first few years kept going for more intensity, pushing for higher weight and lifting to limit. Kept getting nagging injuries that either kept me in pain or prevented me from training. Changed to higher volume, full body and lower intensity by gauging how the weight felt or how I felt and always leaving a rep or two in reserve. When I start a set I don't usually know how many reps I will do, I go for a feel that signals me that's enough. I have maintained my strength and muscle without any single injury for about 7-8 years so it seems to work well for me and I don't think I will ever change it.
this is the type of content that made me become a barbell medicine fan.
i watched one of their older podcasts on programming a couple years ago (with the similar message of harder is not better) and it just made complete sense why i felt so run down all the time and why i wasn't making any progress (not to mention the frequent overuse injuries). thank god for barbell medicine!
Every session! PR or ER!
Hi Guys.... I'm a 5ft 6 53-year-old NATTY Powerlifter.
Training since I was 17yrs old. My Best lifts are 462lbs- 320lbs -485lbs single ply @148lbs I know these aren't very impressive numbers , but I enjoy competing with myself. The more time passes the more I realise that this is NOT an exact science ! There are so many ascending and descending factors that Influence my performance..
I can only tell you what is currently working for me. As recovery and inflammation are always an issue for me, I do the following ...... Sunday - Deadlift (rep range 1-5) ...ONLY bi Weekly! Alternating with a light varied Back & bicep workout in the weeks in between. Tuesday - Heavy Bench press (rep range 1-5) Thursday- Heavyish' squats (rep range 1-5) & Light Bench press 3 sets 10 reps...VERY LIGHT ! 30- 40 kg (just to keep the bench groove greased) The only thing that really changes is that if I get any grief from squats , I will dial it back for a week and of super light (EG: 20-40kg super strict for 3 x 5reps)
What I have learned , is DON'T feel you have to stick to the program exactly - to listen to your body & don't be too proud to switch to the occasional light easy workout , If your CNS tells you to
Good luck ...... Remember some times Less IS More!
This 69 yr old agrees… not fragile! Good content! Thx
Thanks for this. I grew up following Joe Weider and Arthur Jones and his training of Casey Viator. Weider principles were all about going way past failure and Jones would have people do what he called 1 set (which was usually three or four exercises squished together) to positive, negative, static and lowering failure.
I've always said that I have terrible recovery ability, but that's probably not so. Coming back into the gym after over a year off (54 yrs old) I did one set of 5 exercises and I was down for over a week because I went to failure (RPE 10). Before watching this I'd already started to cut way back on intensity and now do five circuits three days a week with very little fatigue. So more workouts, longer workouts, energy for some easy cardio 5-6 days a week, better sleep, better mood and my appetite doesn't go through the roof.
This also reminded me of my younger days watching competitive bodybuilders in the gym and being baffled by them. They were twice my size, but did half the weights I did. I was dying, forced reps, drop sets, whatever I could do to increase intensity, while they stopped each set before they started straining at all. I should have learned then, but I just thought they had great genetics and I had crap ones. Maybe not.
Also wanted to say a big thank you to the barbell medicine crew for every piece of content both free and paid for. Rewind about 4-6 months ago and my untrained 66 year old dad has an A1C of 10 (type 2 diabetic), pain in his knee from arthritis, shoulder tendinitis, and could barely squat the bar to depth because of the above mentioned. Fast forward to today and his most recent squat e1rm is just under 225, he’s pulling 225 for multiple sets of 4@8, and benching 135. His A1C has fallen to 7 in this time span and his doctor is strongly considering pulling him off of his blood pressure medicine because he thinks he really doesn’t need it anymore. He also has greatly reduced (nearly non existent) pain in his knee, no shoulder issues, and has made training a strong habit. I don’t have to tell him to go train or hold his hand, he does it entirely independent of myself. I cannot thank you guys enough.
Awesome story, man. Glad to think you'll have your dad for longer and a better version of him for that duration. Good on you for sharing this with him.
Cap. Your 66 year old dad got to 225lb squat in 6 months? Even 20 year olds don't make progress that quick. I took 1 year to get to 225lb squat at 19 years of age. Sure I didn't train specifically for strength but still your story looks sus.
@@RishabhSharma10225 I’m sorry you feel that way but your training progression is not an indicator of how anyone else’s progression will go. To be perfectly honest, most people who train would say taking a year to hit 225 is pretty slow progress.
@@RishabhSharma10225 Full offense intended, if it took you 1 WHOLE year to get to 225lbs squat then you are just EXTREMELY weak and I don't mean that lightly. The dude above me is right, most people who actually train would consider that very slow progression. There is nothing "sus" about the guy's dads story. You are the problem here, you either don't train properly and screw around or you have horrible genetics.
Hey! I’m trying to get my dad (same age group, untrained) to start resistance training, what kind of content exactly or programs were useful in training your dad?
I am 52... and not old...and not fragile... I have been lifting for 3 years and feeling fantastic!!
3:58 "...I had to put the right song on, I had to hyperventilate..." I feel personally attacked here.
I've noticed I can handle more volume by leaving a couple reps in the tank on sets and I feel much better overall. It can be difficult to overcome the mindset of taking every set to failure though. Sometimes it feels like I'm not pushing hard enough. But it's great to not hurt all the time lol.
Bro this was my lived experience too
Same
@Andre Leite da Silva Totally agree! It really would have cut down on my injuries and helped my overall progress over the years.
@Andre Leite da Silva yeah, it's hard to explain RIR or RPE to someone who's never truly taken sets to failure before. Training to failure definitely has it's place, especially for newer lifters.
100% agree with this
Thank you, 52 years old and suffering from the exact symptoms Dr. Baraki described while doing "seniors Texas" style programming. Always tired, sore, bad sleep, no progression, developed into depression because I thought it was just me (had other stuff going on as well but this was definitely a contributing factor (PTSD)), didn't look forward to training anymore, was just doing because I "had" to and was failing. You guys rock, thanks for all you are trying to do in a pretty dirty business.
52 here as well. Luckily got fed up with SS before I hit Texas method. Been doing BBM templates for 3 years now with great success. Keep on pushing friend!
@@grimtrigg3r I tried the BB Med program/template for back pain but didn't make much progress. I seem to do well with LP (linear progression) programs to a point but eventually I stall out and can't increase the weight. I'm still learning how to use the RPE style lifting that BB Med recommends so maybe 3 months wasn't enough to see progress. Not sure but I found it frustrating!
We all respond differently, but at age 77, it seems that 3 to 5 hard sets after warmups seems to work better than one max one for me.
Intensity is inversely proportional to duration.
Higher reps from 15 to 20, also seem to work better for us older folks.
AAAAAA that post mortem joke was soo deep... Loved it!
I needed to hear this, thank you!
Yes just turned 61, early in the year I was making great gains by leaving reps in tank, lots of consistency and volume. Like always I got PR greedy, started overshooting RPE, ended up doing back and shoulder rehab but coming back. Not unlike decades earlier aside from my total lack of knowledge back then. Make better gains generally now than then because of what I learned from BBM, Alan Thrall
How many sets her body part, per week are you doing? I’m 61 as well and have always been high intensity, going to failure and beyond, but not much to show for it. High volume, higher frequency, with reps in reserve is intriguing.
Pavel Tsatsouline talks about this on Joe Rogan. The Russians routinely did sets of say 3 with a weight they could go to failure with at say 5 to 8 reps.
Heavy weight for singles or doubles. Listen to grey steel.
So far I agree. I used to be able to benefit from one warm-up and then a very intense set. Now I need multiple sets. As in eight or more for the same muscle group. However, I don't train to failure.
Thank you gentlemen.
Great point and presentation. Someone else mentioned this is the kind of content that they subscribe for, and I will echo that sentiment
Ah a dampened oscilations synodal wave for the thumbnail. Thanks for kicking in my PTSD from summer physics
We need more content from Jordan and Austin. Or maybe just audio of commonly said phrases that we can play on repeat
But, in this episode, Austin was the one who really brought the passion. He was great.
@@neilpollack3514 yeah that's true. I was outdoors typing but we can use more content from both of them
@@neilpollack3514 Jordan did seem rather frustrated or something. This may be common knowledge to them but it's not to most people. When I was a Powerlifter people are always criticizing me for not lifting heavier all the time. My gut instinct was to only lift heavy once in a while but I was literally teased for "wimping out".
They actually do the "just audio of commonly said phrases we can play on repeat" part on their Instagram. They cut out an important phrase from a video, caption it to explain it further in detail and then post it on their insta.
Love this!!! Im 62, have been following the Baraki approach and making significant strength gains .So very grateful to Barbell Medicine and all I have learnt from them!!!!
When is the app coming to Android?
That remind of the good old pr block/rehab block periodisation model
My brain can't handle this🤯
Older people tend to want to rest less too. If able to stay far from failure, and only resting 30 sec or so, ya I think sets per session can be a lot higher. Thats probably going to be a lot easier on older clients with a lot of joint and tendon issues. I’ve ramped up some of my older clients to 15-20 sets per body part per week.
Now my question then is if I do maximally hard sets then do i get away with doing less stuff?
💪🐸👍 yap i've spondylarthrosis so always afraid about injuries. Is the brain always working bad with that ? if yes for how many pple 70 or 80%.
i was on humia 1 short each 2 weeks, my Bones and muscles are doing okay but whats about the brain injury ? in the future with no Bad médication, i saw glutamine working well for gut, so good point
when are we getting that nutrition book?
Would a decrease in rpe also be beneficial to someone with limited recovery do to life style? For instance I work 70 to 80 hours a week doing manual labor like pick axing trenches all day and hand mixing 60 to 80 bags of 80 lb bags of concrete. Would I be better served in that roe 5 to 6 range?
Personally, just stick to the RPE. 5@8 will always be 5@8, regardless of weight on the bar, or if you poured handled rafters all day, or dug trenches all day. This is coming from someone that was a framer for 4years & still trained. I WAS IN MY EARLY 20s, but this still applies
Great video. Just a suggestion, the music at the intro and outro is too loud. Compared to the rest of the video.
Phase 2 of the Barbell Medicine Beginner Template has sets at RPE9 programmed for every exercise, every workout. Is this still the recommendation, considering what you've been saying lately on the channel about RPE9 not really adding much value?
Would enjoy seeing a debate vs Mark Rippetoe.
I'm 60 and I lift heavy 4 days per week. I have a coach who wrote a great program for me and I am getting stronger using it.
Good stuff Bill, I'm 30 and hope to do the same when I'm 60
@@MrTimdeK I have no doubt you will still be at it at 60. The disturbing part is I will likely no longer be on this planet by then, but if I am, I hope I am still lifting.
How many sets her body part, per week are you doing? I’m 61 and have always been a high intensity guy, going to failure and beyond, but not much to show for it.
Yikes - so I was thinking about looking into Starting Strength certification but a lot of your stuff has been diving into new perspectives. So which direction do I go? Who is keeping up with the data?
Barbell Medicine is far more data based than SS. Their programming also produces superior results. Your call.
Am I actually first?
For the algorithm
Based on your comments, is volume the only driver of strength and hypertrophy? What if i don't want to do high volume training. Wouldn't doing less sets with max effort be better then ? Aka intensity driving growth over volume.
Try it it workx
Then why do BBM templates routinely program sets @9? I found them to be too hard to recover from at times. It was really my only problem with the templates.
Then find a load where you can recover from. You need to listen to your body. If you go max effort at old age where recovery is much slower, do you think you can go hard again the next day? Play the long game. If your goal is to maintain, build or hold on to what you’ve got then you don’t need to train like a pro. Everyone adapts differently. Stimulate not annihilate.
@@PhiyackYuh Which is why I was wondering about the frequency of the @9 sets.
Something I wondered too. I’m on powerlifting 2 and it’s very very hard but I have been seeing good results so far.
The RPE 9’s are abundant in it
Let's say someone is 64 years old and has moderate hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, but no ischemic heart disease. What should he do?
Does this imply the Bridge program is obsolete? I find many sets @ RPE 8,9 frequently used and it is really HARD!
I was thinking the same thing. The RPE 9s in their programming made me get to the point of anxiety attacks about working out. I am still trying to get my mind right.
I don't think they would say that. You have to do work in the higher RPE ranges to be able to develop the skill to lift maximal weights.
Comment for the algorithm.
Wrapping it up with the dead grandma, absolutely brutal.
The biggest problem with RPE is that it isn't data. It isn't objective. It's based on your feelings. It's based on your perception of what "hard" is and that's not very reliable.
There are plenty of subjective values in numerous settings that qualify as data and RPE would be one of them. The existing research shows that not only is it reliable, it is more important than a number of objective factors for training stress, such as relative intensity. You don't have to use it if you don't like to, but it is always there and has been validated at all levels of training.
Holà! Here’s a diff grandma
isn't this literally the opposite of what barbell medicine espouses? I haven't read the book but literally every video I've seen on masters lifters from this perspective has been on the "lift heavy to get strong" aspect and not "do high volume at RPE 6" side of the coin. Perhaps I've misunderstood what the videos have been saying, but I was certainly under the impression that high intensity but lower volume for adequate recovery is absolutely what the Barbell Medicine type of programming is all about.
That's what I've seen on the videos from rip on older lifters aswell.
Two relatively young guys telling old guys that they need more volume
They will find out
Dr. Baraki, thanks for pointing out my mistake with the obesity medications. The current medications are highly efficacious with a low side effect profile. Semaglutide and tirzepatide are the best I've ever seen. I see why I missed them now. They are produced by mega pharma and I usually focus on small to mid cap with more upside on the stock. These are the best obesity drugs I've ever seen on the market with a 15 to 20 percent reduction in weight with a very tolerable side effect profile. This should be a big step in the right direction for helping people control obesity.
I guess he left Rippetoe's idealogy
7:32 Aside from bad training what about the entire lifestyle? Nutrition, stress levels, sleep, emotional health.. Body would respond by shutting down reproduction hormones, no?
Would an older trainee's form breakdown faster by the end of a 10 rep set than it would a younger trainee ?
!!!!
Russians have been training this way for ages. We in the US have a bust your ass mentality.
The older you get, the more you benefit from training 7 days a week. It may be light, it may be recovery, but there should be resistance training or cardio 7 days a week. Not PRs or HIIT every day, but breaking a sweat, rising heart rate every day. See book “younger next year” for the science.
Nope
yap its make sens, Always good to walk a little so i do the same even its just biceps triceps . The sign is sleeping i think . If Bad sleep so nope better to do nothing maybe for nervous system
they do not know anything. study starting strength
My advice is wait until you yourself are old before offering such advice. Why are those who purport to give advice to older lifters invariably themselves young?
Sooo...you only listen to Doctors who are the same age as you are?
Interesting approach...
I disagree with this 2 men talking without real life experence im 60 year old been training for years tryed it all high volume low volume ect but as ive aged less volume high intensity heavey work mike mentzer style im certainly not fragile just benched 140 for ten reps can deadlift 500 but intensity is key not volume for me now im bigger and stronger than most in my gym peaple who do tons of volume but intensity not there there small and weak they train chest fòr 1 hour i train chest for 15 minutes and bigger and stronger cuss of intensity u can can do loads of volume and make no progress if intensity is not there its not how much u do but how hard u do what u do in my years of experence
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Jordan be looking old
I don’t normally comment buttt I was thinking the exact opposite. Jordan’s looking good.
I am a 72 year old hammer thrower. I have tried many different training schedules with limited success.however I am know using gerdkanter discus weight training.5sets 12reps40lb.11reps45lb.10reps50lb 9reps 55lb.8reps60lb.i do this twice a week.the second week.i reduce reps by1 ie11x45.10x50.9x55.8x60.7x65.week3.10x50.9x55.8x60.7x65.6x70.week4.9x50.8x55.7x60.6x65.5x70.week5 start again week2. Try this for 3or 4months iuse five exercises hi pulls.bench press. Press.step ups.your favourite.i wish I had found this training 30 years ago. All reps should be executed fast.good luck N Hooker