I have of course used the booster rocket pressure when I was a kid first flying estes rockets, the combination of both engines firing was usually enough to separate with the booster stage simply falling back to the ground. That also was pretty hard on fins simply glued by white glue. But every thing was so light that damage was repairable. My budget was much limited so my efforts were spaced apart. Now I am in my 73rd year and I am more limited by travel to a suitable launch and recovery site. Still I get a bit of enjoyment every time I launch something, over the years I have introduced many to this rather expensive pass time.
It’s not expensive right? You can make the rockets and launchpad and parachute and other accessories all youself, so then only the motors are a problem and they are not cheap I agree. But I have seen people make their own with potassium nitrate and that’s cheap. The cost of the hobby really depends on how much effort you want to put in, at least that’s my opinion.
@@bas5070 Low power can be done on the cheap but once you start to get big, things start to get expensive. To make your own motors you need to be at least level 2 certified and a level 2 rocket can be very pricey.
@@Nick21012 You can do that by adding a chute and a shock cord to the first stage and wrapping it in fireproof wadding. Once the First Stage falls off, the parachute will auto deploy (in theory, I have never built a two stage design)
@@inventorsyndrome8894 or you use rear-eject with a spool and after the sustainer drag separates the booster motor's ejection charge fires and pushes the motor mount and parachute out the back of the rocket
The old Estes model rocket instructions recommended that the motors for the separate stages be taped together with clear tape so that they wouldn't come apart too soon after the booster propellant blow- through such that the upper stage motor wouldn't ignite. That limited the length of the booster stage(s) and a lot of their vintage kits have large booster fins to compensate for the concentration of weight at the rear of the rocket.
Hey, Tim. I just wondered, when using drag separation, you could also use an electronic circuit in the second stage with a switch that activates the second stage motor when the two parts separate. That could be done by a short string coming from the first stage that then pulls out a seperator (maybe a piece of paper or so) that is separating the two parts of the switch so that the circuit is closed when the paper gets pulled out. I've never seen that before, but it would certainly be interesting to see. Like that, you'd just need a power source (battery) in your second stage and no other electronic components. Maybe the acceleration G's might be a problem for the seperating piece of paper (it might get pulled out by those forces, idk) but it might be worth testing something like this. Cheers, Jan
I was thinking the exact same thing. I have a rudimentary trigger for a warning buzzer that alerts me when someone, or something approaches my camp, or a specific area around my house. A $10 portable set up. Thin piece of plastic or cardboard between a spring contact (clothespin in my case), and string stretched across an inviting pathway. I guess you'd probably want a "remove before flight" trigger of some type, just to keep from an accidental ignition but that's simple enough as well.
I was with grandkids a couple of days ago and we built and launched a bunch of Estes Bandits. We had a couple left over so we cobbled them into a two-stage rocket. We didn't have any booster motors, so we used two single/upper stage motors and crossed our fingers. Of course it didn't work. I'm guessing the spacing between the two motors was too great, and the plug at the top of the first engine prevented the second engine from firing. (I couldn't remember the finer details of building two-stage rockets from the 60s, I should have known better..) We did hear a loud bang when the first engine burned through but I assume that was just the ejection charge, we just hadn't heard it so close to the ground on any other launches.
Anything is possible. But not everything is wise... The National Association of Rocketry has a limit of 3 stages for a reason. The longer the rocket burns, the more weathercocking it will experience. So the rocket will be going horizontal, instead of vertical. That is unsafe. Always consider safety when launching a model rocket.
It sounds like you ended up with 5 different methods, or do you count the method where the electronics are in the booster as being the same as method 3?
@@Nick21012 I have never attempted a complex multi-stage rocket before, so I don't know how people do it, but yes, most high-power multi-stage rockets have parachutes in both stages
@@coastermania17 They probably do it by separating both stages and having a parachute attached to the first stage. Then the second engine is ignited through electronics. That's probably how it works.
Good morning Tim! Thanks for the video, I always learn something from you. On the two low power methods, how loose of a fit should the booster have to the upper stage? It sounds like there is quite a lot of pressure, so I won't need it so loose that when inverted (on the ground) the upper stage falls off, clearly not so snug that I have to really pull them apart... any tips there?
@@Nick21012 sure there is. In the terrain kit for example you have a conic plastic section that joins upper stage and lower stage. In it you have to fit your electronic, with one pyro that ignites the upper stage, then a second one with proper delay that ejects itself out pulling the chute. Be careful to protect well your chute. It’s a kind of two stages.
Wondering here. For larger, high power two stage separation, what would be your method of choice? My last rocket was a two-stage (I class motor on booster, H on sustainer), using onboard avionics for sustainer ignition, and while it flew successfully and recovery went well, the staging itself was pretty rocky, launching the sustainer into a corkscrew until it stabilized itself and reached apogee. My bet was that the fit at the interstage was too tight. Part of the coupler got burnt pretty badly and that asymmetric separation might have created some unwanted rotation. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.
@@apogeerockets Thank you. I'll definitely experiment more to figure out how to make the best staging. It just feels so good to see the second engine ignite in-flight, I won't be going back to single stage design soon.
Either use the booster motor or electronics like the perfectflite mini timer 4. How big is your two stage? For some of my smaller ones, I Just tape the booster motor to the sustainer and friction fit. For my current level two build, I'm going to use a minitimer4 in the interstage coupler to ignite the sustainer motor with sheer pins to prevent drag separation or maybe just friction fit will be enough.
I've been building cluster stages/w recovery using black powder motors. So one or two to stage and a delay motor to shoot the chute out. I've built a 3 motor cluster first stage and a 2 motor cluster first stage. They require elaborate transitional pieces between the upper and lower stages, I've figured a way to incorporate a recovery method for those too!
The way I've been doing it is with a cluster first stage, with one motor being a short delay, and the others regual booster motors. The delay motor has a separate tube to hold the parachute. You need to add a fairly long gap, at least the length of the chute. It's possible, and I have proof on my youtube page =)
Awesome as always! From one of your regular crew! Now your going to get me in trouble with the wife again lol...You can Never have enough rockets lol...Good launches...
What is the furthest distance you can separate black powder motors for staging? I would say what distance does the reliability for second stage ignition really drop off? Wondering if I could stage the new Estes Black Brant kit. Thoughts? Think they call it pass port staging instead of direct staging when we gently tape the motors together.
I don't have a number for you. I've done more than 8 inches reliably with a small mini motor. I don't know a maximum. I encourage you to try and test it out. I'd be interested in knowing your results.
@@apogeerockets Thanks Tim. Sounds like a fun little project. I will test it out. BTW: that large two stage rocket you were holding at the beginning of your video is BEAUTIFUL! I am assuming you sell it. Will check it out too. Thanks for your input. Andrew
My question is like on the long rocket with like Saturn v the 18" one for the first stage . My question is how do you get it to fly because after the first stage gets separated then the second stage , well the CP??
I don't know what language that was... But I think you are asking about how to make a rocket with no fins stable. This requires pop-out fins that are hidden in the rocket.
Considering a-c cases can fit inside of a c-d case I kinda wonder if I can press the smaller motor on top of the larger motor so it’s a overall shorter length, I do worry about ignition and separation though even though it’s a friction fit.
I give you permission to experiment. I don't know what you're talking about. But whatever it is, you'll need to experiment. I don't have any suggestions for you.
Are the booster motors different from the normal ones, do I have to buy different motors for my first and second stage rocket or can I use the same c6-7 for both stages
hi, i very like your project, and i think i want make diy for my learn and knowledge,but i don't know how to do. 🥺.Teach how to make engine rocket like real rocket.Can u teach me?😢
I encountered this one time when thinking of plans for a 2 stage rocket, I just thought of blowing up the first stage with firecrackers to separate it lol
Hi Tim, my brother Perry, who made a submission to your magazine made a 2 stage rocket with @ 10" separation between stages (czcams.com/video/_p0fG_KFZmg/video.html). He wanted to see if the 2nd stage would still fire with a gap in between, which it did! The problem though was with the 1st stage chute deployment. Because he was using a black powder motor with no delay the rocket was moving too fast for the shroud lines to stay connected so they shredded. My brother said for Estes motors you can't use a motor with a delay because they have clay caps inside them that could prevent the 2nd stage from firing. My brother doesn't want to us electronics for this. Any suggestions on how to get the 2nd stage to airstart off a 1st stage motor with some sort of delay in it? Could he use say a D12-3 and still have the 2nd stage ignite or would the clay cap on top of that not allow for an air start?
Why doesn't he want to use electronics for this? We have a similar size rocket called the TTV that uses electronics to ignite the upper stage, and it works great. czcams.com/video/1p30MqW8xVo/video.html. It opens up so many more motor choices and if the upper stage fails to ignite, there is a redundancy that will still kick out the parachute. And the booster stage can have a conventional arrangement for the parachute too, so you don't have to worry about stripped lines. I'd try that first.
Smaller model rockets in general have very little surface area for glue or epoxy to adhere to, so it is pretty normal they break off easily. I'd be concerned if a bigger rocket's fin came off.
I mean it could be balsa. I guessmyou could still paper or fiberglass the fins but still doesnt take too much to snap a papered balsa fin. But it didn't look like his fins were reinforced at all. I dont reinforce my balsa fins on most low power fins except for ones I find extra exceptional. HPR is where it's at with me but I still mess around with low power as well
I have of course used the booster rocket pressure when I was a kid first flying estes rockets, the combination of both engines firing was usually enough to separate with the booster stage simply falling back to the ground. That also was pretty hard on fins simply glued by white glue. But every thing was so light that damage was repairable. My budget was much limited so my efforts were spaced apart. Now I am in my 73rd year and I am more limited by travel to a suitable launch and recovery site. Still I get a bit of enjoyment every time I launch something, over the years I have introduced many to this rather expensive pass time.
It’s not expensive right? You can make the rockets and launchpad and parachute and other accessories all youself, so then only the motors are a problem and they are not cheap I agree. But I have seen people make their own with potassium nitrate and that’s cheap. The cost of the hobby really depends on how much effort you want to put in, at least that’s my opinion.
@@bas5070 Low power can be done on the cheap but once you start to get big, things start to get expensive. To make your own motors you need to be at least level 2 certified and a level 2 rocket can be very pricey.
Don’t feel bad, Tim. I’ve barely touched some of my rockets and knocked fins off, too. Makes you wonder how they can survive flight after flight.
Rick Sorber Yeah.
Agreed. I sometimes just get near to objects and they break...😊
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
@@Nick21012 You can do that by adding a chute and a shock cord to the first stage and wrapping it in fireproof wadding. Once the First Stage falls off, the parachute will auto deploy (in theory, I have never built a two stage design)
@@inventorsyndrome8894 or you use rear-eject with a spool and after the sustainer drag separates the booster motor's ejection charge fires and pushes the motor mount and parachute out the back of the rocket
I use a self sealing stem bolt for my separations.
The old Estes model rocket instructions recommended that the motors for the separate stages be taped together with clear tape so that they wouldn't come apart too soon after the booster propellant blow- through such that the upper stage motor wouldn't ignite. That limited the length of the booster stage(s) and a lot of their vintage kits have large booster fins to compensate for the concentration of weight at the rear of the rocket.
I wish I read this before it happened to me 😂
Thank you, now in working on my own two stage rocket and your video helped my so mutch. I hpe There isnt any mistakes because im from europe
Hey man, m new to rocket world.. could you suggest me a good fuel??
@@4nirmit i think you can buy some estest Black powder motors.
Its well for starting
@@hugotoscher4734 thanks man!
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
Yes it is, but you have to yuse electronics to fire second stage. Than you simply put there engine with short enjection charge.
Hey, Tim. I just wondered, when using drag separation, you could also use an electronic circuit in the second stage with a switch that activates the second stage motor when the two parts separate. That could be done by a short string coming from the first stage that then pulls out a seperator (maybe a piece of paper or so) that is separating the two parts of the switch so that the circuit is closed when the paper gets pulled out.
I've never seen that before, but it would certainly be interesting to see. Like that, you'd just need a power source (battery) in your second stage and no other electronic components. Maybe the acceleration G's might be a problem for the seperating piece of paper (it might get pulled out by those forces, idk) but it might be worth testing something like this.
Cheers, Jan
Yea there could be nonconductive material between the ignitors that gets pulled out when the first stage falls off.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I have a rudimentary trigger for a warning buzzer that alerts me when someone, or something approaches my camp, or a specific area around my house. A $10 portable set up. Thin piece of plastic or cardboard between a spring contact (clothespin in my case), and string stretched across an inviting pathway.
I guess you'd probably want a "remove before flight" trigger of some type, just to keep from an accidental ignition but that's simple enough as well.
Ok im gonna build my 1st 2 stage rocket i bought the loc booster with the bbx rocket.. love your channel thanks u so much ive learned alot
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
Thanks sir for this type of good explanation 👍
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
0:00 This is my new favorite sound
I was with grandkids a couple of days ago and we built and launched a bunch of Estes Bandits. We had a couple left over so we cobbled them into a two-stage rocket. We didn't have any booster motors, so we used two single/upper stage motors and crossed our fingers. Of course it didn't work. I'm guessing the spacing between the two motors was too great, and the plug at the top of the first engine prevented the second engine from firing. (I couldn't remember the finer details of building two-stage rockets from the 60s, I should have known better..) We did hear a loud bang when the first engine burned through but I assume that was just the ejection charge, we just hadn't heard it so close to the ground on any other launches.
Is it possible to stack like 5 engines together for a higher flight? Would custom build rocket from scratch if it can be done might try over summer.
Anything is possible. But not everything is wise...
The National Association of Rocketry has a limit of 3 stages for a reason. The longer the rocket burns, the more weathercocking it will experience. So the rocket will be going horizontal, instead of vertical. That is unsafe. Always consider safety when launching a model rocket.
Hello, I have a question what electronics do i put in the rocket to launch in the air in 2nd stage?
It sounds like you ended up with 5 different methods, or do you count the method where the electronics are in the booster as being the same as method 3?
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
@@Nick21012 I have never attempted a complex multi-stage rocket before, so I don't know how people do it, but yes, most high-power multi-stage rockets have parachutes in both stages
@@coastermania17 They probably do it by separating both stages and having a parachute attached to the first stage. Then the second engine is ignited through electronics. That's probably how it works.
Good morning Tim! Thanks for the video, I always learn something from you. On the two low power methods, how loose of a fit should the booster have to the upper stage? It sounds like there is quite a lot of pressure, so I won't need it so loose that when inverted (on the ground) the upper stage falls off, clearly not so snug that I have to really pull them apart... any tips there?
I say the same fit you use for model rocket nose cones.
@@apogeerockets Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
@@Nick21012 sure there is. In the terrain kit for example you have a conic plastic section that joins upper stage and lower stage. In it you have to fit your electronic, with one pyro that ignites the upper stage, then a second one with proper delay that ejects itself out pulling the chute. Be careful to protect well your chute. It’s a kind of two stages.
So cool that you worked on the Delta :D
Wondering here. For larger, high power two stage separation, what would be your method of choice? My last rocket was a two-stage (I class motor on booster, H on sustainer), using onboard avionics for sustainer ignition, and while it flew successfully and recovery went well, the staging itself was pretty rocky, launching the sustainer into a corkscrew until it stabilized itself and reached apogee. My bet was that the fit at the interstage was too tight. Part of the coupler got burnt pretty badly and that asymmetric separation might have created some unwanted rotation. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome.
My suggestion is that with enough experimenting, you'll work out the bugs. But use scaled down rockets to do testing, so you save money.
@@apogeerockets Thank you. I'll definitely experiment more to figure out how to make the best staging. It just feels so good to see the second engine ignite in-flight, I won't be going back to single stage design soon.
Sir how to ignite the other stage of rocket after the first stage .. pls tell
Either use the booster motor or electronics like the perfectflite mini timer 4. How big is your two stage? For some of my smaller ones, I Just tape the booster motor to the sustainer and friction fit. For my current level two build, I'm going to use a minitimer4 in the interstage coupler to ignite the sustainer motor with sheer pins to prevent drag separation or maybe just friction fit will be enough.
I've been building cluster stages/w recovery using black powder motors.
So one or two to stage and a delay motor to shoot the chute out.
I've built a 3 motor cluster first stage and a 2 motor cluster first stage. They require elaborate transitional pieces between the upper and lower stages, I've figured a way to incorporate a recovery method for those too!
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
The way I've been doing it is with a cluster first stage, with one motor being a short delay, and the others regual booster motors. The delay motor has a separate tube to hold the parachute. You need to add a fairly long gap, at least the length of the chute. It's possible, and I have proof on my youtube page =)
Awesome as always! From one of your regular crew! Now your going to get me in trouble with the wife again lol...You can Never have enough rockets lol...Good launches...
What is the furthest distance you can separate black powder motors for staging? I would say what distance does the reliability for second stage ignition really drop off? Wondering if I could stage the new Estes Black Brant kit. Thoughts? Think they call it pass port staging instead of direct staging when we gently tape the motors together.
I don't have a number for you. I've done more than 8 inches reliably with a small mini motor. I don't know a maximum. I encourage you to try and test it out. I'd be interested in knowing your results.
@@apogeerockets Thanks Tim. Sounds like a fun little project. I will test it out. BTW: that large two stage rocket you were holding at the beginning of your video is BEAUTIFUL! I am assuming you sell it. Will check it out too. Thanks for your input.
Andrew
Does Apogee components deliver model rocket supplies in India??
We ship non-flammable items. NOT rocket motors or igniters.
What are you looking for altimeters or nose cone ?
We sell all components related to model rocketry
@@ratneshsoni9045 website link plz
My question is like on the long rocket with like Saturn v the 18" one for the first stage . My question is how do you get it to fly because after the first stage gets separated then the second stage , well the CP??
I don't know what language that was... But I think you are asking about how to make a rocket with no fins stable. This requires pop-out fins that are hidden in the rocket.
Considering a-c cases can fit inside of a c-d case I kinda wonder if I can press the smaller motor on top of the larger motor so it’s a overall shorter length, I do worry about ignition and separation though even though it’s a friction fit.
I give you permission to experiment. I don't know what you're talking about. But whatever it is, you'll need to experiment. I don't have any suggestions for you.
@@apogeerockets he wants to put an 18mm motor on top of a 24 mm booster motor. It's been done before, I saw it on the rocketry forum
Nice animations!
Thank you so much sir 🔥🔥🔥 🔥
Great info. Now I know why my second stage didn't ignite.
SIR CAN U TELL ME HOW TO IGNITE THE 2ND STAGE AND FIT IT INSIDE
See our website at: www.apogeerockets.com/Tech/How_2-Stage_Rockets_Work
Are the booster motors different from the normal ones, do I have to buy different motors for my first and second stage rocket or can I use the same c6-7 for both stages
They are different motors in each state. See: www.apogeerockets.com/Tech/How_2-Stage_Rockets_Work
@@apogeerockets where do you buy the booster motors?
@@carterfilms3.047 If you are in the USA, you can get them from www.ApogeeRockets.com. If you're outside the USA, I don't know.
@@apogeerockets what is the rocket engines full name
@@carterfilms3.047 Estes C6-0
Is there a way to eject a parachute to the first stage so that it doesn't just fall to the ground?
Yes. See the book: "Model Rocket Design and Construction" for different methods.
@@apogeerockets Thank you very much for the fast response, sir. I really like your channel and wish you all the best!
Do you ship to brazil ?
hi, i very like your project, and i think i want make diy for my learn and knowledge,but i don't know how to do. 🥺.Teach how to make engine rocket like real rocket.Can u teach me?😢
Please make a video for second mety please
same SS Frog Rocket splitting process :)
Do you deliver in belgium?
No. We are not a delivery company. We do ship to Belgium though.
Cool
How the Parachute is ejected for the booster stage ?
There isn’t a parachute in 1st stage , it just falls to the ground , that’s how I do it
@@ianjones6838
Thanks
I encountered this one time when thinking of plans for a 2 stage rocket, I just thought of blowing up the first stage with firecrackers to separate it lol
…. I recommend getting a bigger table.
method 5 - train the onboard hamster pilot to release the 1st stage
Are you doing anything new?
Aw poor baby rocket lost his fin 😢
Hi Tim, my brother Perry, who made a submission to your magazine made a 2 stage rocket with @ 10" separation between stages (czcams.com/video/_p0fG_KFZmg/video.html). He wanted to see if the 2nd stage would still fire with a gap in between, which it did!
The problem though was with the 1st stage chute deployment. Because he was using a black powder motor with no delay the rocket was moving too fast for the shroud lines to stay connected so they shredded. My brother said for Estes motors you can't use a motor with a delay because they have clay caps inside them that could prevent the 2nd stage from firing.
My brother doesn't want to us electronics for this. Any suggestions on how to get the 2nd stage to airstart off a 1st stage motor with some sort of delay in it? Could he use say a D12-3 and still have the 2nd stage ignite or would the clay cap on top of that not allow for an air start?
Why doesn't he want to use electronics for this? We have a similar size rocket called the TTV that uses electronics to ignite the upper stage, and it works great. czcams.com/video/1p30MqW8xVo/video.html. It opens up so many more motor choices and if the upper stage fails to ignite, there is a redundancy that will still kick out the parachute. And the booster stage can have a conventional arrangement for the parachute too, so you don't have to worry about stripped lines. I'd try that first.
Great fin attachment on that Loadstar . . . Try using Fillets, even on the "props" you use in your video's . . . LOL !
Smaller model rockets in general have very little surface area for glue or epoxy to adhere to, so it is pretty normal they break off easily. I'd be concerned if a bigger rocket's fin came off.
That’s just mean dude, it happens to everyone, don’t make fun of him
I guarantee he builds his stuff to a higher standard than you.
@@BlueTrane2028 I guarantee you have no clue . . . When a fin snaps off under minor pressure, it's crappy construction, period !
I mean it could be balsa. I guessmyou could still paper or fiberglass the fins but still doesnt take too much to snap a papered balsa fin. But it didn't look like his fins were reinforced at all. I dont reinforce my balsa fins on most low power fins except for ones I find extra exceptional. HPR is where it's at with me but I still mess around with low power as well
This is cool.. But the separation I'm going through, usually begins with "I want a divorce"
Sheesh tuff bro 😒
Oh well, cry somewhere else
Today's launch was 1000ft. 351m. Even Small rockets are very dangerous!!! Be careful!!!
cellophane tape
Hey dude I am from india, I would like to develop some international friends during this quarantine, will you be my friend