Comparing internal vs. external Dolby Atmos Renderer output with Nuendo 11
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- čas přidán 12. 10. 2021
- UPDATE: The issue that I am encountering in this video at 29:30 is the result of a bug in Nuendo's ADM export (Nuendo version 11.0.40). A workaround is posted here: • Problem solved: They d...
In this video I take a look at the sonic differences between stereo and binaural rendering outputs of the internal and external Dolby Atmos Renderer with Nuendo 11. The video also demonstrates a Parsec-based workflow that allows the use of the external renderer in standalone mode from within a Windows based production system.
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Links:
Getting started with Dolby Atmos Music in Nuendo 11: • Getting Started with D...
How to use Parsec for hosting Logic Pro in Windows: • How to use Parsec for ...
Parsec: parsec.app/
Halo Upmix by Nugen Audio: nugenaudio.com/haloupmix/ - Hudba
You don't look like the Michael Wagener I know :D Excellent video! Thanks for doing it and sharing!
Thanks for comparing dearVR Monitor and Binauralizer Studio. Got both - the advantage of Binauralizer Studio - is a VST2 plugin - the salvation for DaVinci Resolve 🙏 I liked the Nuendo internal renderer better and for the binaural output I swear by the two plugins shown 👍Great tutorial - thanks
Thanks!
Hey Micheal, Thx for all of the great information!
Can you use the the Dolby Atmos music panner as a plugin in Nuendo without using the External Dolby renderer instead of or with Nuendo's internal panner?
The panner is just the regular panner. If you connect it to the internal or external Atmos renderer it switches into Atmos mode. So it does work with the inteenal renderer.
the differences in binaural mode are due to different HRTF profiles used in different applications and the math of the engine. In term of quality Dolby Atmos Suite beats them all. Others sound like good toys, but not as perfect.
Hi Michael, first of all, thank you very much for taking the time to share all these videos, they are immensely helpful. With Logic's new support for ATMOS and Spatial Audio, do you know whether we're able to work with Ambisonics file formats in logic now or is that still not possible.
Also, I was wondering whether you can walk us through a workflow to work with Ambisonics Recorded files in Cubase 11 pro but then exporting to Binaural Render?
Scenario being recording a bunch of field recordings using Ambisonics [Sound Devices MixPre 10 ii], then adding a few other tracks of dialog that are binauralized [recorded mono but processed as binaural audio with added panning automation etc] in Cubase, then wanting to rendering final output for binaural.
Finally, wondering whether you know what compressed file formats support
1- Multi Channel audio [traditional surround]
2- Binaural Audio formats
3- Ambisonics
Thank you very much and apologies for the numerous questions.
Thanks! Great suggestions!
18:42 you could crate 3 BUsses. On each bus a plugin. Send from the track to the bus, and solo the bust (with the track) commuting in real time so that you could avoid to remove the one was not bypassed. Just a small suggestion :-)
I know, but that seemed a bit overkill only for this comparison purpose. ;) You can actually switch between DearVR Monitor and Binaurlizer Studio if you have DearVR Monitor first in the plugin chain. When DearVR Monitor is on, it only passes stereo anyway and if it is off all 12 channels reach Binauralizer Studio. It is really only when you want to switch back to the Nuendo MixControl that you have to remove Binauralizer.
Thank you for your videos which are very useful. Is it possible to render an MP4 including Atmos or 5.1 audio using Resolve and Dolby's "Music Production Suite" rather than an online service?
Yes, you can use the external renderer included in the production suite to convert a masterfile to mp4.
@@michaelgwagner Thank you for your response. I've now hit the problem that I'm Windows based and Dolby insist on Mac for the Production Suite... hey ho.
You could use the Dolby Mastering Suite which includes a Windows version of the external renderer. But that is expensive. It’s actually cheaper to get a Mac.
Dou you have an idea of the latency of these binaural downmixers? I am investigating if it is a viable workflow for surround live sound presented to the audience in headphones...
On my system (2019 Razor Blade Stealth 13 gaming laptop) Nuendo shows 22ms for the Dolby Atmos Renderer, 10.7ms for Dear VR Monitor and 10.7ms for Binauralizer Studio. In VR we usually consider everything below 60ms acceptable for real time. You should be fine for your purpose.
Hey Michael what headphones do you prefer for dolby atmos mixing mastering? Because I bought a Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohms and the headphones distorted in 20-100 hz range and 7K-8K. I checked everything, changed machine and interface but yet the headphones distorts. And also a quick Q&A what headphones you're using?
I’m currently using the Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro 250 Ohm. The Beyerdynamic are know to be a bit bright in the 7-8K area but I have not yet heard of issues in the low frequency area. Headphones are a personal choice, in principle any good studio headphone should work.
@@michaelgwagner is dt 990 250 Ohms good for this work?
You want to look for headphones with a good soundstage and good imaging. The DT 1990 work, but if you don’t like the DT 770, the DT 1990 might not be the right choice.
@@michaelgwagner what headphones do you prefer for dolby atmos mixing other than beyerdynamic?
Are u going to make a video on how to do Dolby Atmos in Logic pro now that apple fully support the workflow.
Logic on a pc would be great
I will, but I will probably get myself a new Mac first. :)
One thing to add on top of all: Binaural encoding. Nuendo has a different ay than Dolby Renderer. The last one considers all the 128 objects (the IR for each object) while Nuendo: not. Nuendo stays on the bed (like a cat :-D) this makes it not so heavy (it's reasonable choice). Dolby Renderer *preferably* should run on a separate and made-for machine, if ever you decide to heavily use objects. Dolby Labs tells in which way that machine must work. AND in that case, MADI/DANTE is mandatory. USB cannot transfer 128 objects.
Having said that: Apple Music, uses a totally different algorithm for Binaural Encoding. It sound even different from the Dolby one.
HENCE: drop any hope to mix in Binaural. That concept serves only for marketing. ATMOS *must* be used with the minimum of 7.1.2 (Dolby Bed Recommendations).
Yes: hardware talking and speaker displacement talking, is way more expensive.
Ok if you want a Ferrari, you can have it ... when you have the money to get it :-)
Good points!
Yeah these are very good points. I love Atmos and how it's becoming more available for producer and consumer but monitoring and translation is still quite an issue.
34:20 the only option is to setup 7.1.4 speakers ☺
Hi Michael am i correct in saying that Nuendo 12 can use the dolby external render but cubase 12 pro can not ?Best wishes
That is correct. Second main difference is that Nuendo can read and write ADM, Cubase can only write ADM.
@@michaelgwagner Thanks for your reply Michael :-) I suppose it looks like i may have to move over to Nuendo if i want to do this Atmos mixing for real in the studio i have :-(
Thanks a lot for these amazing insights . A lot of difference was found "even within" the Dolby Atmos ecosystem when it comes to internal vs external . Think Dolby is implementing it's secret sauce of "automatic spatial object compression and spatial audio coding emulation " only for the DAPS . Apart from "de-correlation" , a lot of difference was found when it comes to positional info and spatial coding itself .
I have also noticed a Big major problem with your exports . Why did not the "object size" Metadata did not traslate correctly to the DAPS from Nuendo ?. If it has trasferrred successfully without any file corruption , it should show up those big halos around the objects inside DAPS also just like in Nuendo right ? It's not that GUI of DAPS dosent represent Object sizes ...It does represent ....( We can observe many YT tutorials on mixing for Dolby Atmos where they deal with object sizes ) Why did not that happen ? I am now afraid that Nuendo is not exporting things correctly . OMG so many limitations for windows 10 users ....this is very frustating ....
The DAPS version is allowing us to hear "multiple things clearly and distinctively without anything getting lost " all at a time ..that is the reason the bass stem is back to life in the stereo downmix version of DAPS vs very hazy sounding mix in Internal renderer mode of Nuendo . It's the fact that "automatic spatial object compression" that allows us to hear many objects despite the mix gets soo dense and busy this by allowing us to place objects "anywhere in between" not just restricted to the placement only on walls ....
Now it's proven , the secret sauce of its hybrid LBAP panner when it comes to both the de-correlation and automatic object audio compression with respect to its nearest neighbours of spatial coding algorithms inside Dolby Atmos explaining very clear with the help of your video demonstration ....thanks a lot again of your efforts 🌟
But unfortunately I have noticed that , even though you set the headphone mode to binaural inside DAPS , you forgot one important step to .....you did not actually turn on Headphone only mode . In both cases we just herd your mix in Downmix stereo only . That's why they sounded same ...
Okay no issues ....But The .MP4 encode that you just exported is the DD+JOC version of your mix . It's a speaker based format . It's usually meant for 7.1.4 QC . That's not the binaural emulation again . DAPS has seperate binaural re-render mode inside it . You need to go thru that way if yiu want to QC bin version of your mix .
Therefore unfortunately again you accidentally made a mistake of previewing your encode in Downmix stereo version only ( unless you enable Dolby Atmos for Headphone in windows 10 audio settings ) . If you do not has Dolby access application then windows 10 will utterly downmix your dd+joc , 5.1 core , 15 dynamic audio objects , 1 LFE bed , 768 kbps Atmos file back to stereo . ( It's now also possible to encode your mix st 1.2 mbps with their recent update but the number of objects always remains the same i.e 15 ) ( use something like mediainfo lite app to review this above told metadata of your file )
Same goes when you play a 5.1 audio file inside windows 10...1) either you have connect your windows to a Homethearte with hdmi to get the Dolby digital Plus 5.1 or Dolby Atmos bitstream in this case else 2) you need Dolby access application inorder to correctly binauralize that to a 2 channel Headphone environment
If you don't have these two settings enabled ...Windows audio settings will always downmix it back to stereo and low output volume
Can you please share me that .MP4 encode of your mix ..... Let me hear it and evaluate the Binaural emulation of it thru the windows 10's spatial audio setting " Dolby Atmos for Headphone" via "Dolby Access" application on my machine which is the only way to experience the exactly same DAPS binaural engine on windows 10 machines in default "mid" mode only ( this os only a small limitation ), licensed by Dolby to correctly draw in the conclusions when it comes to Headphone QCs ...
Thanks for the pointers. I honestly just added the mp4 last second because I remember somobody asking for it. What I might do is share a full set of files. I need to double check your comment re Headphone only mode. It would be weird if that would be the only way to hear binaural, but it is possible that I missed that.
Edit: yes, you are right. For some reason I was under the impression that enabling headphone mode was enough but you actually have to set it into headphone only mode. I will do a follow up video next week.
@@michaelgwagner Yes because Headphone only mode means it's a confirmation that the end point is only headphone which will unlock the binaural option if enabled. If Headphone only mode is not enabled , From the Dolby renderer's perspective ... it could be anything that is connected as a stereo endpoint device . It dosen't know whether you actually connected a headphone or not . Because since there is no such s drop down option at top left corner that says binaural except 2.0/5.1 etc . The renderer will default it stereo 2.0 thinking that the endpoint is stereo loudspeaker device . You connected a headphone successfully but the Renderer dosent know that logic . The only workaround is enabling Headphone only mode . The binaural toggle is just a feature on / off unlocking button.
By the way , in the next video can you also please demonstrate Dolby Atmos Spatial Audio coding , it's auto audio object compression algorithm with it nearest neighbours that makes it possible to hear every audio object despite mix becoming denser and denser and Auto De-correlation by actually bringing in audio objects to the center of the room or in anywhere in between away from the walls. ( This special algorightms will switch on only if you bring tings away from the walls . Even slightly away from the wall is more than enough thus by taking advantage of "hearing everything with great positional accuracies for which the Dolby Atmos is so famous for )
You can instantly check the info on about how much decoration being applied per object , whatever objects are lying anywhere in between by opening DAMS files using Note pad to verify the metadata
Our users are interested to know how Dolby Atmos can excel at placing things anywhere in between and thus giving such a holographic kind of feel that no matter where you roam around inside a theatre , the object pretty stays there because of its de-correlation and has got nothing to do with phantom positioning of Traditional panners . That is one reason why Dolby recommend objects to be always in mono . I mean of we have got a stereo track that has a strong correlation or in this case strong mid content and very less side content . It's better to do a mid side procesing and position the mid part as its own unique object rather than creating that pseudo center effect of traditional panning
You can also instantly test this away with traditional Nuendo panner without sending anything to internal renderer Vs sending . We might hear lot of audio difference within .
For example the same kick placed to the middle of the room with a traditional panner will or can sound comb filtered depending on type of Binaural plugins we use. But the sane kick when placed center inside Dolby Atmos ecosystem will accurate enhances it as if it is beating right inside the centre of our head and also the kick seems to sound even stronger and punchier just like a NearFiled effect . The same is true on Loudspeakers too ...
We have more than 360 space of Palette to be used actually with Dolby Atmos when it comes to filling the box internally with N muner of objects ( reasonably ) and we are simply neglecting this feature . Most of us are afraid of of placing things restricted only to the walls .
So let's revolutionize this myth .
Sir , Unfortunately, I did not find your .MP4 file still anywhere here to QC it ( anyways you can QC it on your own , no issues with the help of this :
www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/dolby-access/9n0866fs04w8?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
It is a Dolby Atmos binaural plugin with default mid settings for windows 10 machines for decoding Dolby Atmos encodes that are speaker based such as DD+JOC content apart from AC4 .IMS which is headphone based )
Does this lack of binaural render with the internal Nuendo 12 still apply?
Binaural is included now.
How do u change the buffer size
That really depends on your system. There is no single answer to that.
@@michaelgwagner pc nuendo doesn't give u the option I saw that u used something else in your Atmos video for nuendo to change it to 512
The Dolby Renderer exists for Windows.I had install it. The Panner is only for Mac. Damn Dolby they don't pay a shit for who has windows :-/ We are all B-Series users
The Windows version of the renderer requires the mastering suite license at which point you are playing a completely different ball game all together. Unfortunately, you cannot run the Windows version of the renderer with a production suite license (tried it).
@@michaelgwagner you mean the one that cists 995 usd?
They all sound different-- some plugin tech, radically so.