Audiophile Power Cable Rant - Where's the Science?
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- In this video 'Audiophile Power Cable Rant - Where's the Science?', I'll give my opinions and views on Audiophile Cables - especially the Power Cable. I'll attempt to explain why the power cable has absolutely nothing to do with improving Audio - except for the Placeable affect. #Audiophile power cable, #hifi power cable, #audiophile power cord
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Well put! Im in the "cables matter" camp, though DONT believe in multi thousand dollar cables. You simply want a nicely made cable with enough gauge to handle the power of whatever component your using it on. Ive heard one rule of thumb that goes "dont spend more on a cable than you would a bottle of wine" . Makes sense to me!
Thanks for the great feedback! Great advice - and remember - a great bottle of wine does not need to cost a lot;)
@@TechStuff365 We are talking strictly the audio and not the alcoholic aspect friend ; )
Maybe the rule should be to drink marketing claims responsibly. Have a glass of science water if you're actually thirsty.
They work... because it is people with 3000W of class A amps running off a 120V 20ampere outlet. They are bandaiding the problem by reducing voltage loss at the connections. Having gold plated will help, brass connections are a no no (oxidization), and chrome plated will be better then brass. It still isn't the proper fix for the underlying issue though, improper power feed.
@@WXSTANG Well that's crap.
Worked for NSA via a Naval attachment. After going to design school and Metrology ( high precision measurements, using various ultra-high levels standards) I learned a lot about wire and connections. This is a vital part of keeping a ship afloat and things working over time. There is a hierarchy of concerns for any closed system to be accurate and precise.
1. Wire insulation: can't be cracked, stiff etc. The idea is to not let the wire beneath the covering start to oxidize and corrode. That definitely creates a non-linear conductor, worse at high current pulse extremes; but also capable of destroying microvolt level signals via nonlinear (diode-like) effects.
2. Terminations: Any metal-to-metal contact is subject to degradation at a much higher rate than, "direct contact" connections.
3. Observations and curiosities: I asked myself, what would be the absolute best connection, let's say, to a high-end audio system (Realizing that in the wall is 16-14 ga romex.) I surmised that it would be if EVERY piece of equipment were somehow magically direct-wired to the subpanel, romex all the way; as many runs as needed. . That to me, was the best you could do, the "gold standard" of my assessment. Also, there may be 4 or 5 duplex outlets and their connections between your equipment and the panel. Those need to be made as sound as possible. The use of Hospital-grade outlets and plugs are good ideas( the very reason equipment in hospitals uses these more robust devices.... Stability. )
4. How to approach the gold standard? Realize that you are plugging into an outlet with many facets, separate pieces stamped and screwed together all over the place. So the best would be to hardwire as many pieces of equipment as practical using wire ( at least) one gauge higher than the feed. That gives you plenty of copper to cinch down in the male plug. Strip the wire, clean it, clean the male plug clamping surfaces and tighten down. ( For the sake of argument; To help combat eventual oxidation there are many products to try if you want. ) The same logic applies to all A.C. connectors and connections.
5. SO...really it is not so much about the wire ( however, use new wire with silicon insulation if possible) but about all the terminations, connections etc... One bad connection in a series of connections sets the performance level.
Thanks Victor, you made some great points here. I agree with you and hope to talk more about this in future videos;)
Wire insulation breakage can cause stray losses to other grounds, and even via corona effect because of high moisture / salt in the air (naval). Not a problem with home theater, but you should have cables that are insulated. That goes without saying. Homes have exposed connections to atmosphere everywhere, and is why we got rid of aluminum house wiring. Oxidization is real, and can effect connection points. Copper for the most part has resolved the issue in modern homes.
In so far as much as home audio goes, lets face it, people with a lot of money don't have the engineering background to understand why they have problems. One guy on youtube has 3000 watts of class A amplifier, at 25% efficiency that is 12000 watts, and he is using standard plugs at 120V and 20ampere circuit breakers. Enough for 2400watts. Swapping a cable, and an outlet with gold terminals will reduce voltage losses, and that will cause an audible difference in a class A amplifier as your HV rails will have more energy. If these people solved the problem properly, the cables would have made zero difference.
For us Pleebs out there happy with 1000 watts from a 50% efficient class AB, there is no need to upgrade the cables, outlets, and there would be no audible difference.
My two cents... take it to the bank.
PTFE covered OCC OFC mains cables with 2.5mm2 min conductors is 10 times better than standard thin PVC copper plated aluminium etc mains cables... OFC oxidizes a lot slower, better quality than PVC covered OFC though slightly higher price due to higher quality covering with Teflon, best for OCC OFC cable...the quality of copper (best metal conductor next to silver which oxidise's/tarnish's very fast) & topology gives you better sound quality....you cannot measure sound quality..lol
So all metals sound the same...lol...quality of copper ,shielding, topology, equipment being used, so many parameters to take into account etc.....electricity coming into houses goes through several step-down tranformers anything less is not safe, or legal....speaker sheilding stops RFI..or your speaker cables would buzz when they touch or cross over each other or are close to mains cables behind your hifi....not snake oil but fact bud...my ears tell me my Supra Lo-Rad Silver Plated OCC OFC mains cables with 2.5mm2 OCC OFC conductors sounds miles better & no noise when used near other delicate digital cables...some peoples ears cannot hear any difference which would be great then a $5 hifi mains cable would sound as good as a $50 mains cable....i wish....plus no EMF from Supra mains cable to fry my brain..& no RFI gets in to degrade signal...Kimber Kable is high quality speaker cable which if you cannot hear the difference you have hearing problems...they use both high quality silver plated OFC copper as well as unplated OFC in some of their speaker cables...it may not make sense but sounds better than most speaker cables...silver is the No.1 conductor ,fact but oxidizes quickly so OFC is used as is a close second best quality metal conductor, before gold, third best conductor...wears off to fast with cleaning....just my opinion
Thanks for your feedback. I am specifically talking power cables here - but I'll get to the interconnects and speaker cables later. I met Ray Kimber many years ago and I do like their product, but it doesn't have to cost much.
Speaker cables do not need to shield RFI by the way - you can not hear RFI, and it does not get into your speaker drivers anyway. The speaker drivers can not even respond to RFI. You obviously don't get behind many peoples sound systems and have seen all the cables jumbled together, and somehow it doesn't come out the speakers. If power cables were that important - then the expensive amps would come with expensive cables. I have had some espensive amps and they come with cheap power cables. It is funny that Audiophile trust the engineers to design their amps, but then disagree on the choice of power cables. We engineers can design - but somehow we are missing something when it comes to power cables.
Power cables do not need OFC - just does not make a difference. When have you seen oxidation on the power cables? Oh, you mean the connectors? Inexpensive treatment can take care of that.
@@KissAnalog ...as much as i agree with you Copper after Silver is the best cable for sending signals but as you state it is down to the connectors...or chop 15mm of your speaker cable every couple of month to get fresh clean cable...i use solid OCC OFC 4mm BNC banana plugs, pure copper with no metal screw on jackets just some heatshrink so as little metal as possible...not perfect but beats 98% of big (expensive) lumps of poor quality metal banana plugs...the speaker connectors that GS Audio use are very high quality OFC push in tube connectors...little metal in them ,just a small amount of high quality thin walled OFC...nothing is perfect , whatever works best for you i guess...& good point i have wondered why esoteric hifi rarely give you big fat fancy mains cables with their equipment....
Another compliment to the placebo effect is the Ikea effect. Something is always better and more valuable if you build it or put it together.
See it all the time in ham radio. Guys love building their own antennas (as do I), and as soon as a guy gets the antenna up, they’ll tell you how great it is.
Thanks Chris! That’s a great fact - I believe there is an IKEA affect;)
Absolutely 100%. Ego & pride.
This has been going on for decades. I worked at a high end audio company. We had lots of customers who wanted to put their linestage 20-30 feet from the power amps (They already owned our power amps). They would call and ask which cable to buy and they were usually looking at $5k-10k for the cable run between linestage and power amp. Their linestages were not balanced. On several occasions we convinced them to just try our entry level preamplifier which at the time cost $4k. We sent some standard pro audio microphone cables(~$100) with the liestage/preamp. Since the run was now a 600 Ohm balanced line, the cables were not nearly as critical. Every time they ended up buying our linestage/preamp with cheap mic cables instead of the expensive cales they borrowed on loan. SCIENCE!
...and they ended up with a world class phono preamp to boot.
Wow - great feedback Leif! Thank you!
That was doing them justice Leif! Nice job!
The cables alone don't make a balanced line - the output and input stages do. Usual consumer audio has unbalanced RCA I/O, putting a microphone cable between them doesn't do a thing. Cable impedance doesn't play a big role here, by design the output stage pretty much determines the whole line and the input of the next stage is a minimum of 10 times higher in Impedance to avoid downloading. And as long as you have it that way and keep it low impedance and well screened there's not much more you can do. If you want to make use of "balanced" mic cable you need to transform your signal into a differential one at the source and (to get it into the next stage) you need to revert this. Passive transformer-DIs usually work both ways, so put one on both ends and Bob's your uncle and you can run your cable easily 50 metres.
@@MadMaxMiller64 Grest feedback! Thank you!
When they came out with exotic speaker cables I thought it was dumb. Then they came out with exotic digital interconnects like USB cables and I thought it was idiotic. But when they came out with exotic power cables I knew we had the start of a cult.
LOL that’s perfect!!
Power cord believers have no clue whatsoever how an audio system works, IE: power supply, signal carrying cables etc. Boggles my mind how people with such a low understanding of how it works would just throw out so much money. If I put this Ferrarri gas line in your VW it will triple your horsepower, and sound like you have 12 cylinders.
LoL guys, usually I'm just reading comments like this and laugh about the A/I, but now I'll tell you just this: You're missing the whole show :D And I guess you deserve it.
@@vladimirharant3128 What does "A/I" stand for? Judging by your "Are media brainwashing us? Decide for yourself... " video, I can already imagine it's nothing good.
It's funny how everyone knew Monster HDMI cables were a scam and they'd upsell them to seniors or people who were new to tvs. Except now the people buying the scam cables aren't the ignorant, they're the enthusiasts who should know better!
As for the audiophile reviewers I wish that they would attend and review an high-end audio show with a blindfold on, to negate their observation bias. Then perhaps their perceptions would be more meaningful.
LOL. That would be impossible as most of these reviewers go to see their friends and advertise for them - IMHO;)
@@KissAnalog It's true. They are an extension of the corporate advertising department.
I have a question when I build my own amplifier(LM3886). Even though I put ecc socket which come with EMI filter, when someone in my family using water heater, or turn on-off switch, it will be pop sound out to my speaker. From what I understand it should filter out by emi socket and transformer right? (I also have zobel network).
I don't know what the cause until now but I put more emi filter and adding volume knob to my amplifier to reduce gain. It helps to reduce but still not understand the problem or permanent solution. (I think electrician may joint these wire together before put to breaker)
Oh I just bough ag solder lol face-turquoise-covering-eyes. It contains only 2% of AG (some are 4%), some says it will give better sound (even the whole pcb using tin solder lol).
I absolutely trust you, I will up the one gauge bigger wire more than some marketing fancy stuff.
Thanks for asking. I'd have to see your design, but the pops and clicks caused by other devices plugged into the power system can be filtered. Many EMI filters are designed for high frequencies, but glitches like this will require something heavier and for lower frequencies.
Hi! Should I use cable elevators with my Headphones?
Thanks for asking. No - they are definitely not useful - just don't run the wires over other cables;)
Great video... Thanks for this. What kind of EMI filtering would you recommend for my simple desktop system. I am using a DROK 48V 10A smps to supply a couple of Aiyima amplifiers. Would I benefit from putting an EMI filter module in my power setup? I built my own no nonsense power cable and my own SMPS enclosure and I'm about to add an isolation module for the USB DAC that I want to power with the same SMPS in my next version. Wanting to eliminate as much line noise that I can. If it's even a thing. Subbed!
Thanks for this feedback!! I'd like to know if you feel that you have improved the sound with these things that you have tried? I do think that having power supplies for each device is a good thing - I don't think the emi can do anything to the audio. However, if the type of power supply results in more EMI, then maybe that power supply might not be the best power supply for clean DC power. There are some plug strips that have emi filtering, but they are expensive, and it is doubtful that they will help provide better sound.
Back in the '80's I was approached several times by guys who told me about solid gold speaker wire - "They make it sound amazing!", they would say. I would tell them, "I don't believe you" and they would get very very upset.
Thanks for that feedback! When people only have belief to hang on to - they can be very fragile;)
I’ve had Christians get upset because I denied Jesus
Do you believe in difference between crossover components? Can you measure a sound signature of a component?
I started out in pro audio where we were taught that cables didn't matter. Later on I found out to my own surprise that they made big differences in my system. Specifically, they improved aspects of sound that better speakers etc could not. Personally, most speakers don't wow me as much as improvements to electronics.
I think the main issue is that companies that make these products are actually being secretive to protect their IP and market share, and have little incentive to reveal what they are doing, and conventional theory is lagging by several decades. Some companies like Shunyata do publish their white papers and explain their designs, but currently it's quite unorthodox to people with old fashioned electrical knowledge. That I can tell, one of the biggest secrets is how they manage of effect the electromagnetic field surrounding the conductor, and not just the wire characteristics. Think about how ferrites effect audio. The situation is such that the people who are discovering new things don't want to share their work for profit reasons, and the people with the previous knowledge base assume its all a scam.
Thanks for your feedback! And thanks for introducing me to Shunyata. I read the patents, and there are no secrets. One thing I can tell you is that the military contractors such as Boeing and Lear to name two, have huge engineering teams and spend huge amounts of money on projects such as the international Space station (which I earned an Engineering Excellence Award for my work). The power supply on Space Station is to work for 20 years with zero failures. The power cables would be the best - if it made a difference. As their patent points out, there are different ways to filter - theirs is just another - no better. Might be better than a simple Ferrite, but that's not saying a lot. IMHO In the US, the top engineers do not work in Audio as it is - basically too simple and doesn't require top engineering. Even this company does not list any engineer other than the owner - which is common in the audio industry. Again - it is no secret what they are doing. I'll do more videos on this subject. Also, the fields that I work in are not old fashioned - like audio - they are ever evolving. Just look at the military equipment today vs 10 years ago - or back when Audiophiles became a thing. Audio is full of old fashioned thinking but that's changing - soon Class D amps will be the common amp and the power supplies will be PFC with resonant converters - which most audio companies can not do today.
@@KissAnalogpower supply on ISS certainly has different RQs than high quality audio. With all due respect, i really doubt your comparison makes sense here.
I did a couple of the GR Research "Speaker Upgrades" with the crossover mods, the very high quality crossover parts, extra cabinet damping, and connectors. They made a big difference and I was very happy with them. There were a lot of changes, so it's hard for me to tell which ones made the most difference, but the overall change was great.
That said I do not plan on getting their power cables. I can kind of see the EMI from the power cables interfering with the speaker cables since they are all stuffed behind my entertainment center. But to fix that issue I think all I would need is shielded cables with good sized wires.
And again, for the interconnects I think just using shielded cables (like coax cables, basically) should do the trick of preserving the signal. But all my stuff is primarily digital at the moment, so I don't really have any analog interconnects at the moment.
I'm a little more intrigued by the idea of braided speaker cables that might filter out some of the EMI that may be running around behind my entertainment center, but not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on them. There are plenty of more effective places I could spend money on in my system that would probably have a much bigger impact.
Very cool! Thanks for the feedback! Yes the speaker mods are very measurable as GR can show. But they can't show any benefit from power cables;)
The speaker cables such as those from Kimber Kable can reduce inductance by the twist but I wonder how much more benefit you get in comparison to a simple twist of two cables. I used Kimber Kable because Ray gave me some, but I wouldn't buy them today. I'll have to do measurement comparisons with regular twisted wires to see. BTW, this is to reduce inductance - the EMI can have no effect to your speakers;)
I’m a believer that materials such as pure silver offers transparent and less distortive sounds than copper.
I finally found a cheap way of buying pure silver cables.
I’m proud that I am that a materials believer. After three weeks when my silver cables mature and break-in, I get beautiful sounds.
So beautiful, it would just be a waste of time to go backwards and A/B test copper.
Why look back or care what I had before.
I feel, people want to A/B test pure silver vs pure copper. Test the whole battery of cables instead of one at a time.
The difference will be absolutely obvious. I won’t do that because I’ve already evolved my cable system to a sound I enjoy.
To those who don’t believe in hi-end cables, I just say, “Stay content”.
You’ll never know. Just enjoy what you got.
If sound is a problem, try hooking up a tv and see how sharp that will look.
I’ve even changed my cable modem cables which has produced a noticeable visual sharpening on my television set.
What do audio engineers want audiophiles to do?
Spend on metering equipment.
What a waste of my money and time for believers of materials, like me.
By the way, I spent $26 for 1/2 meter on pure silver cables on eBay. They’ve raised the price to $42.50.
A true believer;) Thank you for your feedback!
You bring up so many points that have no science or actual benefits - but a true believer will make it true. Another perfect example of the placebo effect.
It is funny how audiophiles don't believe in the audio engineers who actually create the equipment that they love. The audio engineer designs the amplifier but can't be trusted when he says that the power cable cannot make any difference in the signal out to the speakers.
I have seen that 1 meter of 20 AWG bare silver wire is $26 on ebay. This video was about the power cable, but I will do a video soon on the interconnects and speaker cables.
@@KissAnalog
I’m talking about a black and braided power cable that’s been increasing in price lately. Lately, that cable costs $42.75.
You want a better power cable?
I’ve seen a copper colored power cable that uses real Furutech NCF terminal ends. ‘5N OCC power cable’.
Will sound better than an Audioquest Dragon or at least compete for $77.66 a .75 meter.
As a Belgian I'm culturally inclined to object to someone drinking a Duvel, or any other Belgian specialty beer, from the bottle. :-)
The mains cables thing is just the beginning, thousands of $ for a net filter, thousands of $ for an "audio grade" NAS with "audio grade" SSDs, even $10000+ for digital audio streamers that even don't have a DAC or storage, there is no end to this audiofoolery.
LOL Kris! I definitely agree that a Duvel deserves a tulip glass! I only did this for the video;) You are right - there is no end to the audiofoolery!
now i want to open a belgian... put it in a mug... with ice LOL
Me too;)
I really like your circuit diagrams and your explanations of the filters. I'm not an expert on electronics, but I took a few courses in college. I'm still very much an amateur in this area, but I really want to understand this stuff from a truly scientific perspective. Have you had a chance to solve Kirchhoff's equations with an example amplifier and situation to definitively prove that there is no possibility that any antenna effects in the power system outside the amp could make it through without being swamped by the filters? I agree that your diagrams make it seem very unlikely. Still, I would really like to plug in some numbers, but I don't have a good intuition or reference for the input values. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you say that the power cords in the highly sensitive example do indeed decrease the interference (when connected to the antenna port of the tuner)? My understanding is that your argument for why it doesn't matter is that the filters swam out those tiny signals before they get to the speakers. First, am I understanding this part correctly? From a purely theoretical standpoint, wouldn't the braiding geometry have the potential to cancel out RF interference, at least a little bit? I agree that it probably doesn't matter in this case, at least for the power cord, but as a scientist I need to quantitatively prove to myself that it doesn't matter at all, just for my OCD and sleeping at night. Also, what about the speaker wires? They are coming out of the receiver, and there are no more EMI or LC filters between the speaker output and the speaker itself, so there would be no filter to filter out any antenna like activity on the speaker wire? I agree with you on the power cord. I am still forming my opinions, and I have no desire to judge anyone for their choices. This is my current understanding and I am always updating it as I get more information. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If I can get a good setup going, maybe I'll take apart an old receiver and hook up some volt meters and test a few cables... This is an interesting topic, and I very much appreciate your take on it.
Thanks for the great feedback and questions! Any EMI cannot be heard - that is first - it is just too high a frequency. Also, the amplifier transistors are not RF ready - they cannot process the high frequencies. EMI/RF can not get from the power cord to the DC side. There are just too much power processing - there is an isolation transformer, and then the commutating diodes which create far bigger noise transitions. Even these get filtered at the DC bulk capacitors. The speaker cables go to the crossover filters before they get to the speaker drives. These are large chokes and capacitors. Also EMI - if it could get thru the crossover - the drivers would not react. EMI does not affect audio - it just doesn't.
What is your take on Power Conditioners
Great question Simon! Power conditioners are absolutely not needed for most anyone in the US or any country that has good power. Remember, the power supply provides DC voltage from the AC input. In a low frequency switcher (rectifier and large bulk capacitor) the voltage is held pretty flat with the large bulk caps. In a switching PS or Linear (where there is actual regulation), then the PS is pretty immune to the input fluctuations - unless they are really terrible.
Remember - companies make their money on accessories, and a power conditioner falls into this category. If you actually needed a power conditioner - then it would not be only your Amplifier that would need this. The TV and about everything else would show the issues with the non-conditioned power. If it isn't obvious - then the PS can take care of it.
"You have to believe us that the world is flat. Just look out your window -- use your senses!"
LOL - love it;)
i appreciate the video Ed. I have some audiophile cables. Not too expensive and i will gladly partake in a double blind test. Using my track, my rig, and my headphone. I can take notes and request a replay on the same piece of gear. Not just cables, dacs, amps, whatever. As long as i am comfortable, with up/down stream gear that i am familiar with. I am down. Set all the traps no problem. I don't even care if i fail or score well. Because to me, gear and track i am familiar with gives me a solid chance for my 42 year old ears, my brain, my hearing sensitivity, a fair swing at it. And also in practical terms, when i purchase any piece of gear its for my existing rig and for my use, my ears, my music anyways. I am the one that needs to be convinced. Btw a ton of people that quote double blind tests, and have never partaken in one, and their bias also creates the exact same placebo that even if there is a difference, their brains will glean over it and not notice it. I will be the laughing stock no problems at all, at least its fair. (think illusion magic, our senses are easy to trick either way).
Placebo and bias work BOTH ways. For the hard core science 1khz tone crowd, my suggestion for ABX is do a free form test and just tell them what category of gear(amp/dac/headphone) thats being tested, and with also their familiar rig, pick the one they like or a difference. The same way that ABX for me, i may surprise myself, that i can score well or badly on things i didn't expect with my bias. The hardcore science crowd may be surprised, that some of them may like a shit measuring amp better( above 120db sinad vs another one measures bad).
Btw golden sound is a lot more honest with reviews and measurements. Golden sound measures, listens, and tracks. ASR only enthusiastically mentions listening when it measures well most of the time, thats just plain bias on the other end of the spectrum.
If the science crowd gets afraid of the traps and say they all sound the same, my responce will be (when gear is revealed): you serious? so a shitty 70db sinad dac, with 2/3/infinity harmonic distortion spikes cost $50/$5k sounds just as good or the same as an excellent measureing dac costing X amount? so why measure?. And remember have to choose one they like better with their track and their up/down stream gear.
The bias of both sides will be plain to see for all, live and let live, both sides need to tone down on the snobbery all the same. To have a hobby or any interest or passion without bias or pacebo is just not humanly possible. For every cable lover you can get to fail on ABX, I can get a measurement nut to unwittingly choose to like a shit measuring piece of gear or to accidentally admit that measurements either don't matter/or their bias causes them to not even choose or pick the difference between two pieces of equipment that measures at polar opposites.
Thanks so much for your great feedback!
There is no question that everyone has their own tastes, but if there's nothing there - then either we should be able to learn how to measure it - and those that sell these things should be able to point to studies showing double blind successful testing.
What I'm specifically talking about here is power cables - and I am totally convinced that there is nothing there - so long the cable is large enough gauge to carry the current.
I think you're mischaracterizing what you label as the "hard core science 1kHz tone crowd." I've never encountered anyone like that (and I'm an engineer for my day job, and have worked with some very short-sighted people over the years that would be most likely to fall into that non-existent camp). I have been consuming information from various sources lately, including ASR, vintage audio enthusiasts, and the typical explicitly "anti-ASR" sources such as GR Research et al. to get a wide gamut of opinions. Here's the thing: the ad-hominem and straw-man strategy is mainly prevalent on one side, the side that has vested interest in selling things at enormous mark-ups and cannot ever explain in terms of physics, measurements, research, etc.
It's so convenient that the aspects that make multi-thousand-dollar gear "better" can never be measured, proven in legitimate and well-controlled double-blind tests, and have no logical/physical explanation or alternative solution to the "problem" at hand. Sounds a lot like religion or demagoguery to me. How long until audiophile companies start selling giant Himalayan pink salt crystals to use as cable risers with some pseudoscience-y explanation about how the resonance affects the alignment of the electrons in the strands of copper, and you just have to listen and you'll instantly be able to tell the difference? After all, quartz has been used for decades as a source for super-precise timing, so salt (also a crystal) MUST make your audio more precise!
If a car company said "we offer a $10k upgrade package that uses some fancy technology to better align the hydrocarbon molecules in the fuel line, and it makes the car much faster!" and then went on to explain that the best way to tell the difference is to get in the car and drive. And insisted that any objective measurement of performance is invalid because suitable measurement methods do not exist. And then attacked, and encouraged their fans to attack, anyone who (rightly) asked for horsepower numbers, drag race results, an explanation of the physics/chemistry involved, etc.
At the end of the chain of all the audio gear is the production of pressure waves in air, which are the only thing that makes it to your ears (I almost said "ears/brain" but then there's the knowledge of the cost and the visual recognition of a different product... i.e. confirmation bias). If those pressure waves are not substantially different enough due to some change in gear, well... there's simply no audible difference. The burden of proof is on the companies asking for 100x more money for a simple 2-conductor cable, or thousands for an AC power conditioner - not on the people simply asking for the proof of why they should spend substantially more money to fix a problem that hasn't even been demonstrated to exist!
The formula to sling audio snake oil is pretty simple:
1) Sound confident. After all, that's where the "con" in "con man" comes from, right?
2) Invent a problem that needs to be solved, but do NOT spend any time explaining the problem - simple treat it as an assumption or a widely-understood fact, and move on.
3) Get into the nitty-gritty details of some obscure phenomenon to distract from the simple, obvious overarching mechanisms/physics at play. Do NOT put the phenomenon into context.
4) Refer back to #1 and #2 to constantly ensure you're making your audience feel dumb/embarrassed that they *aren't* actually familiar with any of this - they'll be less likely to question you, and in fact, will be more likely to blindly defend you once the con is successful.
5) Explain (ideally with a hint of spiritual/religious overtones) how effective your solution is at solving the unexplained problem from #2.
6) Provide anecdotes and testimonials in support of #5.
7) Before the demo, be sure to explain, using vague adjectives, what the discernable difference will be during the listening test.
8) Be sure NOT to explain that changing your clothes or how much you're slouching will probably make a bigger difference.
9) Run the VERY not-blind test, reinforcing #8 along the way.
10) etc.
Good points in your video.
I trust measurements more than the accuracy of an ear.
It’s like guessing a length vs using a ruler.
Great example!!
We'll have seen first hand how expectation bias works. Kind of the reason why one should always have no expectations going in with a new piece or rather expect it to sound no better or worse. Only then can one hope to actually hear the truth about the price of equipment. Also hearing that a component in a system sound wrong/bad/inappropriate becomes easy and obvious, the only question is if one choses to accept it, or rather go full ego mode(I payed so much so it must be better).
Have had a lot of expensive components that's sounded worse than standard ones, but at the same time certain ones do indeed sound a lot better. Most of the time can not really know how it's gonna be until you put it in. Have had instances where expensive fuses improved things and where they completely ruin everything, where a single capacitor makes the whole system unlistenable ( everyone else trying to tell you it should be amazing), or a pure silver cable bring out more of the detail. In the end there is a lot wrong with this hobby and arrogance and egos are the biggest issue. Find that mostly anything can make a difference, every part is unique and has its own sound to it, just like electrical properties. So stating that there is no difference and everyone who hears one is wrong, is the exact same as those of us who do the same for not hearing a difference. Admittedly a lot of us have bought into a lot of marketing hype, but that would say is the problem of engineering departments not being able to explain their own work to music lovers so they could actually properly explain and understand what it is and why they are hearing all of this.the disconnect is massive.
A lot of this stuff has gone loco thanks to the situation and a lot of people have taken advantage.
Thanks for your video.
Thanks so much for this great feedback! I think if one wants to sell a product that is high-end and brings out a particular quality - they should be able to show the measurements on how much improvement can be made.
Have to agree here big time, wish it was the case in audio industry, not this constant marketing.
@@kautkascitadaks I agree;)
The first time I stumbled onto super expensive power cables was at a big consumer electronics store in Machida Japan. I couldn't stop laughing at the ~$250 1m long power cable.
The sad thing is so many people believe it - and why wouldn't they - if people make something like this - it would have to be true;)
$250.00……….people spend 5k plus on power cables🤣🤣. That was a bargain😂
Im not sure everything can be measured (currently). However, i definitely agree that double blind testing is valid!
Thanks so much!
@Martin Barak I think everything about hifi is subjective, what we all really fear, is having our choices mocked by other members of the community which inevitably narrows our own choices and decisions.
If only we trusted our own ears and followed the eternally honest advice:- If it sounds good, it is good!
Is my hifi any good? I I have my doubts!!!! But it sounds good 👍
@Martin Barak the trouble with hifi as a hobby is we all quickly forget why we bought one in the the first place. The more magazines we buy and upgrades we go through, the further away we get from our original purpose. And once we regard ourselves as audiophiles there may be no hope.
That purpose is MUSIC. Audiophiles DON'T listen to music, they listen to hifi, music is merely a means to determine how fabulous their hifi is. So im a recovering Audiophile, im trying to listen to the music. I'm not sure I'll ever be fully cured.
You're 100% correct. For those of us schooled in engineering and most of the demonstrable sciences, such non-sense as "cables matter" is left to the idealogs produced by advertising agencies that sprinkle a little truth on a heap of BS to attract the ignorant and sell their products. I too am a EE with virtually the same background and time spent in aerospace as you've indicated. As a musician also with lots of recording experience I can demonstrate with a simple spectrum analyser which if any frequencies produced by a microphone or other electronic transducer exist before and after changing out cables from short to long, heavy guage, light guage, different dielectrics, you name it. I can tell you with 100% certainty, at audio frequencies... it is zero in the human range of hearing. There are so many variables that affect the mechanics of hearing, that it's no wonder the advertising types use the subjectivity of hearing quality as marketing tactics. Sorry, guess I'm sort of ranting with you 🙂
Thanks for this great feedback! You make so much sense - and I believe what you say is true! Those that have some electrical background - and then added with some experience - can see thru the BS. It is pretty simple for us. It is also crazy to me that those who buy the tech stuff - don't believe the engineers;)
It's snake oil. The manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank. In-line filtering for $30 will eliminate any noise superimposed on tbe AC waveform, and as you say, the amplifier power supply will include filtering by design. A fool and his money are easily parted.
- Gold plated contacts either on the male or female plug, or better both.
- Proper width for its length.
- Proper shielding for RFI and EMI.
That is all you need really...
Thanks so much for your feedback!
Thank for explain X and Y caps. Since I'm hobbyist I don't have that much measuring equipment back 20 years ago, while I try to blind test or try my best to avoid placebo effect, it's not scientific but fun to compare different cable (not power), for example silver is better sound than copper in general, there may be bias so I try ask friends help to listen without telling them.
Thanks so much Johnson!
How come an amplifier sounds better when you plug it into the wall versus a decent power strip?
@Douglas Blake they almost always do unless it’s a higher end power distribution block
That's a great question - so that we can air this out. It is impossible (IMHO) that this can make a difference. One caveat, if there was a bad power strip that caused a voltage drop, then maybe the voltage at the rails would be a bit lower too - so at high levels there would be some clipping. Otherwise - I'd like to see a measurement or a blind test that showed that even an golden ear could tell the difference.
@@KissAnalog awesome thank you!
About 20 something years ago , I worked with a group of guys that swore the high end amps they had sounded better after they sat them on a slab of granite .
That's awesome;) I suppose if you had ceramic caps in the signal path - and there were vibrations - then you might here something;) But, I'm not sure the granite slab would make that better, a softer surface to soak up the vibrations would be better;) In the military - when they want to be sure there are not emanations from the electronics that a spy could pick up - they place the device on a soft rubber type surface. I guess what I am saying is the placebo affect is real;)
Oh boy, the Audiophile Power Cable Rant, the ongoing discussion for years ... it was quite entertaining Eddie, keep them coming ;-)
Thanks so much Marcel!
Wow this was interested, I also wonder about this, I think it has no sense about the size or the conductivity of the power cord.
I hope someone can make FRA for an amplifier to compare between two power cords.
I forgot to mention that I do have a very nice FRA that I'll use just as another measurement to show whatever we can see;)
@@KissAnalog can't wait watching it
I'm an audiophile also have a degree in electronic. Cables, interconnects are mystery to me. OK you can say I'm dumb. But interconnect does make a difference to the sound. But to research it in electronic engineering books, audio frequency band is don't need concern about impedances matching like radio frequency . However you can tune your system by find cable that gives synergy to the system. If any engineer can brings any light into this subject please comment
Thanks for the great question! Cable design is very important to signal integrity - especially at high frequencies. Audio is not high frequency so the cable design is much simpler. If you place a mic at the speaker - as engineers will to verify their speaker design - and as people here on youtube will do to show an improvement that they can make by modifying the speaker - then you should be able to measure the difference made whey changing out cables. But - can you find any measurements like this?
What audio people fail to understand is that cable design is very important in other fields - but audio frequencies makes audio relatively easy to design and analyze - that's one reason so many people love it as a diy hobby.
Audio frequencies are just barely starting to enter the physics region of skin effect, but it doesn't take much more wire gauge size to account for this. The shielding is important for interconnects to be sure that wires are not inducing fields in wires laying next to them.
Low cost cables are used for todays high def TVs, so the same tech can be used for audio - no problem.
Power cables is something that just simply does not make a difference - unless you have a cable to small for the current and/or voltage rating.
You are absolutely right, but some are easily fooled by marketing policy
Thank you! You are so right;)
Yo thank you so much for this video. SO MANY PEOPLE....including myself....are/were trying to make themselves believe there's a true "sound difference" in expensive power cables (for electronics or speakers). After listening to many folks; who provide "the science", I'm finally onboard with "its nonsense"! I have replaced my interconnects with slightly higher quality cable than the standard little black RCA with the red and black connectors....you know the ones. I'm also using Mogami W3104 (relatively inexpensive - but great) speaker cable. :-) But I'm using the factor provided power cables in all my electronics and speakers. After more than 25 years of investing in good electronics, great speakers, a well treated room, and the right tweaks (based on the science), my experienced ear and listening enjoyment makes sense because I am more knowledgeable on how it suppose to work and sound.
Great feedback! You are very sensible! I do think that better interconnects and speaker wire is worthwhile (but not that it needs to cost much). The power cable is just not a concern unless it is too small. Placement of cables might be more critical:) I mean you don't want to run or bind your interconnects with the power cable;)
It is funny that it took science for the engineers to design the amps and preamps - but then those engineers can not be trusted when they say that the science also shows that a power cable is not important.
4:20 Duvel, a beer brewed here in Belgium, nice to see that ;-)
Regarding the very expensive cables, with some people it all sits between there ears,a sort like placebo effect, they think the more expensive a cable is, the better it will be.
There are many type of quality levels in cables (power and audio), and at a certain point, you are half way the ladder, a point where you have a cable with enough copper material to handle the amps that the cable is rated, and so the least amount of voltage drop. When you keep climbing that ladder, the resistance doesn't drop anymore, but only the price begins to rise. At that point, you must decide for your own, if you want to spend the extra bucks on something that cannot be proven anymore.
If the difference don't show up on a DMM or scope, then your ears won't hear the difference either.
Thanks for this great feedback Bjorn! Yes this Belgium beer is one of my favorites! I agree with you.
I bought air-tight rubber balloons that don't deflate, filled them with helium and tied them to the power cables with non-vibrating string. The result is incredible, as if the entire audio system has disappeared.
LOL, but did you get the oxygen free copper lined balloons?
Did the make Balloon Farm sound better??
sure, pure audiophile cotton string, about 1000 euro/meter, but it's worth every cent@@KissAnalog
🤔@@matthewtaylor7355
🤔@@matthewtaylor7355
I also laughed a few years ago when all the HD TVs were coming out and a few speaker companies had to join the bandwagon... They advertised that their speakers were "HD". Right there on the box.
LOL or digital ready;)
This will always be a debate. But I think the key is to see if it actually makes a difference on the tail end of your chain.
Does it change your frequency etc.
When it comes to power I'm looking for reliability. To match input and output
Thank you! I agree reliability is very important as is safety. If you look at the wiring from the power coming from the transformer to the house - and then finally to the wall outlet - it is absurd to think that a golden faucet will clean hundreds of feet of dirty water pipe - if it was dirty to begin with;)
I plan to take measurements to show that this is an absurd topic.
I'm in the "It is all in your head" camp, at least with my system. I have around $17,000 invested, mainly Denafrips, KLH Model 5 speakers, a pair of SVS SB3000 subs... I picked up moderately priced cables, about what you would pay for Monster Cables back in the day. Lots of Mogami wire, XLR and speakers, and a few Audioquest, and the inexpensive Pangea 14 power cords. I just did some moving around and working on my system, the Pangea cords would not work due to their stiffness on two pieces, so I broke out the power cords that came with and used them, you know what they look like, consumer cords... Hell, I cannot hear any difference, still sounds damn good to me.
Thanks for your great feedback Michael! You have an awesome system - so obviously you come from the ‘experienced’ camp that the believers say that you need to be from:) I just think it is obvious - the same people that make speakers and crossovers will show their measurements and what they accomplished. But then when they say they also have these super duper cables - they can’t show anything in any type of measurement. Because the before and after are identical;)
@@KissAnalog I just added another piece that required a USB cable, well, all I had was the inexpensive cable that came with the piece. I did a little cable swapping... Again, I heard no audible difference. Imagine that?
LOL digital is digital - not levels of good;)
Agree. It is nice to test but if you are honest about it, hearing will show if it matters. Being an electrical engineer, numbers are one aspect but results are all I care about with me audio system. (Difficult to write with a cell.) I sold my power amps and preamps for DIY when my builds sounded better. I have Klipschorn speakers and built a couple sets -- each has pros and cons. I don't need numbers to tell me that Klipschorns roll off at the low end more than my large DIY optimum size ported speakers, and both sound great. Power cords? The last 6 feet don't matter more than the 50 ft of Romex but using two 120V power isolation transfers in balanced power did improve sound - isolated refrigerator noise for example and by separating the power amps from the low signal side improved dynamics -- probably just helped with ground loops and balanced power may cancel magnetic fields in the cord(?). I tried mu-metal shielded power cord from Less-EMF, and using a Tri-Field meter realized a 50% reduction in stray magnetic field from the cord connected to a 50W Class A amplifier. I also prefer full mono builds to minimize ground loops. Interconnects: I make mine to minimize capacitance - it does matter with subtle music variations. Mine are unshielded as a shield greatly increases capacitance. So, spacing power cords from unshielded interconnects is good to do, though, I don't have a big problem with induced hum. If I cannot hear the difference then I it doesn't matter. Improving the chain of gear is a step by step journey if it matters to you. If not, enjoy your iPod with compressed MP3's. I listened to some, particularly on my phone when I traveled for work, and they are better than I expected. The gear on my stereo sounds better than gear for movies because, movies are really sound effects and I don't care about that as long as the movie audio sounds reasonably good.
Specs: mostly a marketing or engineer thing. When a tube amp with 1% THD sounds better than one with 0.02%, you know something else is in play. Could be TIM or John. I listen and use what sounds good to me. I like the Pass Labs Aleph 1.7 clone preamp I built with a customized front using digital encoders and I like the Lynn Olsen Raven tube preamp (I added a photo stage). My Raven version is the one with Lundahl transformers. I know some people prefer Sowter. And, I can't justify the cost of boutique capacitors, and haven't heard them. Mostly I use reasonably priced polypropylene caps -- power up for 30 minutes as caps under power reduce distortion 50% each hour, Suspect absorption is what I hear when my system opens up after about 45 minutes from power on. I haven't tested this as all I have is REM software, calibrated mic and scopes and QA401. But I don't care, as I have fantastic focus which improves how you hear the instruments - sense of immediacy and realism. Yes, acoustic treatment is essential and electronic proccessing doesn't fix a bad sounding room.
If my turntable sounds fuzzy I don't have to confirm with test equipment that I need to verify alignment and stylus cleanliness.
The whole thing with early days of audio specs was to separate good from bad or marginal equipment. So, 20 - 20KHz was intended to give good phase margin, I believe. Music really goes from 30-60 low end to 10-15K. So, nice these days to have 10 to 50K capability. If it sounds good to you, and it meets the needs for a budget, go for it. Enjoy! Did I ramble on?
Thank you for this fantastic feedback! Yes you are on the great path of building and learning on your own, It is great that today we can all measure these differences. But to say one spec - like THD makes the difference - is wrong. It is just a parameter that is measurable that gets put on the list with the other measurements - and as a whole - I would hope that we can say - this amp sounds this way. Maybe good for you or good for me - but it is measured and sounds - this way. The power cord is meaningless - full stop.
Besides the "regenerator", PS Audio Paul also used to sell (and might still) a wall-wart sized power line "conditioner" that you plug into an empty outlet on the same leg as your audio equipment. I can't remember if they were claiming some beneficial phase adjustment crap too, but the main function was to resistivley dissipate any transients and non-50/60Hz junk on the line with some kinda active snubber or bank of high ESR bulk caps after rectification in attempt to crap the noise out as heat.
It's like, what's this thing ultimately do for you that can't be easily and better accomplished by other means right at the point of load into your supply where you need it? If I remember right, someone tested the gadget and determined that it ultimately added more noise to the power line than it cleaned up. 😅👍 I really do like Paul, he's fun and a lot of his stories and information are good stuff, but even his best electrical theory is sketchy and I'm convinced that he should never, ever, ever attempt to explain how power electronics works to anyone, especially to a lamen audience.
"To lower the noise in our new Octave Records studio, we added a separate earth GND rod right outside the window here, that way our recording equipment grounds are isolated from the power company's dirty electrical box ground." 😮😧 .. brah.. Nooooh. ☹ ☹ ☹ Paul got beat up pretty hard that day in the comments by some hams, EMI gurus, and frowning professional electricians. Equal parts laughable and terrifying, depending on which side you're looking at his comment from.
Thanks for the awesome feedback! I agree with you about Paul - nice guy but some stuff is really cringy;)
I'm actually half stunned at some of the magic that they come up with. When I saw him and his Chief Engineer attempt to show some test on their bench - I could not believe my eyes. These small companies - left on their own will self destruct I think. They start off with a good idea and have enough confidence and business know how to get it off the ground - but then the lack of actual engineering allows them to embarrass themselves with the gadgets - like the wall wort.
I use lamp cord for speaker wire. I'm going to hell, aren't I.
LOL Don’t feel bad David - just because you are wise enough not to fall for the ridiculous;)
In a hand basket !
As a music enthusiast (not an "audiophile" by any stretch), I appreciate your thorough and easy-to-understand breakdown of the ongoing market for premium audio and power cables. Having been involved in the mid-range to high-end audio/video sales industry in the past, I can't help but feel that the "audiophile" cable market may be more focused on profits than on genuine value to consumers. The significantly higher profit margins in the "premium cable" market often led salespeople to aggressively push these accessories as essential upgrades. In my personal view, these products seem unjustly overpriced and potentially unnecessary.
While I've also encountered claims of significant sound quality improvements with aftermarket "high-end" cables, I remain skeptical. The concept of Pareidolia, which could explain why some believe that a high-priced cable must offer superior performance, is worth investigating. It could be that users convince themselves of a notable sonic improvement, despite the lack of measurable differences from the original equipment cables. This is the primary reason they hear what they perceive to be a sonic improvement in their systems.
I think you hit the target! Thanks for the great feedback!
I have perceived an audible difference with interconnects. Both DIY and factory. But the catch is they are usually more or less expensive and you cannot even guess which will be "best" for your system. So you usually buy blind. So I cannot ever be sure I got the best but I am happy with what I got. And some famous cables are in the bag with my quality made DIY jobs for some day.
Thanks for your feedback Tom! I agree, Interconnects are possibly the most important connections. But, I don’t think you need to spend a lot of money here. Also, wouldn’t it be great if they could show curves so that you could match with speakers and such to know which would sound better?
I always DIY my cables, since I have some scraps, though I make sure that the connectors are good quality. Like the RCA Plugs by Amphenol, or XLRs by Neutrik.
Waiting for Michael Fremer to pop out lol
LOL
Great rant! Like hearing from someone who is practical. Lots of audio snake oil out there...hopefully you can return your cables if they don't work.
Thanks so much!!
Well, power quality is an important thing. If you have a power quality analyzer you can see how dramatically the power waveform can change when you run the AC or switch on your LED lights in the basement.
So do a simple experiment: have someone switch on the LEDs in your basement while you listen to your stereo. If you don’t hear any changes in audio quality, your power cable is just fine.
Thanks Chris! One thing that can cause a blip in your audio when a switch turns on a load is due to a spike caused by the connection. This is usually filtered out in the Power Supply, but it can be possible to make it through a system. The cables can not filter this out unless there is a ferrite core built into the cable.
@@KissAnalog I am firmly NOT a believer in snake-oil cables (especially for digital). That said, I am a "believer" that I have noise coming over my USB cable into my cheap DAC/interface (M-Track Solo) that is making its way to my speakers. I do have a good reason for believing this: I can hear the sparks of my gas boiler's igniter playing over my Klipsch ProMedia desktop speakers every time it starts up 😆 Does the same thing with a Marantz 2220B and bookshelf speakers connected to the same DAC. Pretty sure it's noise on earth ground going through the PC case into the USB ground. Yup, I've got noise coming through my "digital" cable! Clearly I should spend a a few hundred dollars for a better 3-foot USB cable.
Thing is, a cable isn't going to fix it, lol. I am 99% sure the cheap M-Track Solo doesn't have the greatest power filtering (it's powered by USB) so any noise on USB ground is affecting its analog signal. I just got a Focusrite 2i2, and not-so-surprisingly the VERY extensively reviewed, measured, and well-regarded $169 DAC might have better power filtering than the $49 M-Track Solo with similar feature set. So far I haven't heard the boiler sparking through my speakers.
I don’t know anything about electrical engineering but as a musician/audio lover i found this fascinating so thank you! Subscribed! One thing this made me think about is if these audio companies that sell these overpriced peripherals say it makes a big difference, they are engineers like you, right? Like you, they should be able to show the schematics like what you showed and show what is making the difference and why. Musicians also get into this “mojo” thing with gear and people will pay $30,000 for a guitar that probably cost a $100 to make when it was made in 1959 because it’s got “mojo” lol. It’s fun to romanticize but I think we should all know that there is no such thing as fairy dust when it comes to engineering any device and we should just admit that our feelings get entangled into the process and cloud our judgement. It’s ok to admit this, though, there’s nothing wrong that. Feelings make us human after all. Thanks!
Great feedback - thank you!! Actually the engineers selling this - well first some are not actually engineers with a degree in engineering, and others do not make the money that we do in the defense industry. Also they have not operated or worked with the equipment that I have - as there is just so much more money in the defense industry. I don't know any engineer like me that would say that a power cable makes any difference at all. People that work in Pro Audio will back me up - and they set this stuff up on sound stages and work with a lot of money. They know what makes a difference too - and I've been backed up by these guys - and some are engineers while some are experienced technicians. The Audiophile world is full of snake oil.
@@KissAnalog agreed, it's a shame that it's so full of snake oil. I second you as I know a few live sound guys and mixing engineers and though they may use Mogami or Monster cables for some of their interconnects (I use George L's in my studio), not one of them has used a "specialty power cable". I feel that if audiophiles had a better understanding of the recording process, they'd know that it's not some kind of "golden goose laying a golden egg" process. All the cabling, preamps, EQ, compression it all goes through would probably make them feint if they knew the truth lol. Looking forward to your next videos! Happy Friday!
Thank you for the real world feedback!! I hope to help change this - at least in my small circle;)
That HDMI cable you have was bad for me. TV lost signal when inductive load from exhaust fan switched on or off in close proximity. Different cable did not exhibit symptoms. It was not an expensive cable, but was shielded better for sure
Thank you! Great feedback!
Do you remember audiophiles in the in the late 80s/early 90s claiming that using green magic marker on the edges of CDs improved the sound immensly?
That’s a good one;) I do remember that now that you mention it. LOL - some probably still swear by that!
$300 power cable
Going into a $0.25 terminal, soldered to a cheap circuit board...
LOL - there is no end to the craziness that power cable 'believers' will ignore...
The best way to do it is a bunch of the same length cables, blind test and choose what you like (if a difference can be discerned). Then after that, look at the measurements that correspond to all the cables and look at the data correlation preference vs non preferences. This should provide measurement knowledge as to why your ear preferred one over the other:) I swapped out power cables only for the fact that I needed longer ones and my ears, in my own system noticed no difference. Maybe ones infused with silver would be brighter - I have no idea if it works the same way speaker cable tone works etc.
Thanks for the great feedback! No, silver would make no difference in the power cable - as the power cable makes no difference so long as it is sized for the current;)
Yea, an expensive power cable is like consuming tap water through a solid gold drinking straw! Wait, we're on to something here: Bottled Electricity! Pure, unmodulated DC collected from Natural Sources and shipped in recyclable lithium bottles. Only $99.99 per watt hour!
LOL thanks John!
I wonder if these folks use four feet of copper pipe after their plastic water pipes so their water filters will produce better tasting water?
LOL But I think you are right;)
why do you have 10 multimeters?
LOL I actually have more;) As a power supply design engineer I sometimes use 6 or more when testing. But I have all these meters for CZcams comparisons;)
Question please Kiss Analog:
Do you have any experience with silver cables(high quality but affordable) rca etc.??!!
Especially in a turntable application where the rca’s, the tone arm cables & the head shell cables are all silver???
Thanks for your honesty & brains dude👍🇺🇸
He does indeed provide great information in his videos about crossovers. I've learned a lot from him. However, I certainly do take issue with his cable claims.
And don't forget cable risers. He claims that once his speaker cables were lifted off the floor, it made a world of a difference.
Thanks so much for your feedback! I agree with you about his crossovers, and then I cringe when he tries to sell cables;)
I am now in the camp that takes what my old physics teacher said "Keep your wire short and fairly thick!" Thats about it. As long as its safe and up to spec go for it. But yeah I can't tell the difference. I have two Russ Andrews yellow cables that I bought many years ago when I had little sense and too much money. I now use them on my monitor and my PC. Thing is it doesnt make them faster or give me better image quality. What I would be interested in is if ferrtite cores you can slip on cables make any difference to the audio spectrum or actually do reduce any noise at all.
LOL I love it! The ferrite cores could reduce RF noise - but you can't hear that;) I'll see if I can do a video on noise into a power cable and what comes out into the power supply.
I hear n. Utah/s. Idaho in that voice! Great stuff, sir. Thank you.
LOL - yes there is an accent for us or a funny way of saying certain words;)
I agree with the science aspect of it. I recently did a speaker x over upgrade. This was hard for me to do cuz I thought it was bs. I did it anyway and the difference in the sound of my speakers was staggering, well worth the investment. Not only did it relax the highs, it made them very easy to listen too. Science does work.
Thanks for the great feedback! Did you buy a crossover or how did you do the upgrade. I think crossovers are one of the best upgrades - especially on an older speaker.
@@KissAnalog I bought all the parts from an online company, assembled them onto boards and soldered everything together. They were for my klipsch rf 7ii speakers which I love and have had since they came out. They were just too harsh for my taste, especially with two channel audio. The upgrade lowered the sensitivity a bit and made them very neutral speakers that still can play loud as hell. The biggest thing I noticed, was the change in phase and vocals, huge difference.
I work with an EMI lab, the power cables never made a damn difference in the response to the frequency sweep... You wont believe the amount of voodoo we try to drop spikes here and there with our setup. This is for a $10,000,000 classified system.
Well said! I have been to a number of EMI labs and if power cables made a difference - at all - we would have loved to have used them. People have no idea what it takes to pass EMI and the lengths we go - and a power cable upgrade would have been a no brainer! Thanks for your feedback!
BTW, have you ever heard of oxygen free copper being necessary? I mean outside of audio?
You had me at EMI filter.
LOL - Perfect! ;)
Speakers are the biggest improvement you can make, if those are not right, nothing else can be
Thanks Mike - I agree!
my thoughts on cable go like this,
1. power cable can make a difference only to the point that one was not able to pass what was needed and the better one could, once beyond that point any more is worthless.
better power cables (MAY) alleviate some noise. not by keeping noise out of the power line (that noise is already there) but by good shielding (maybe) keeping some noise out of low level interconnects especially a phono input.
2. interconnects not much needed but a decent shielded input that can block some outside noise from entering system.
3.speaker cable like power cable once the cable can handle the power requirements any more is a waste. if you want an expensive cable because it looks nice fine, but you won't convince me that it will sound better.
4. cable burn in is nonsense, to burn in you have to physically at a molecular level permanently alter cable properties. any cable I have seen permanently altered needed to be replaced.
you can get decent cables that exceed requirements without braking the bank, sure they may cost a bit more than el-cheapos, but at the same time not thousands
I wonder if someone made some cables that looked great and worked great at a more reasonable cost if they wouldn't just kill the competition?
@@KissAnalog I don't think the nature of the fanatical audiophile will let that happen. you have two groups here. you have the fanatics that that love equipment over the music. and then you have those of us on a budget that love music and just want to get the best sound that we can afford.
there are a few companies that make decent cables that don't cost the price of a small car. those of us on a budget will probably let them succeed. but
this is such a small niche industry and the fanatical audiophile with money to burn will believe snake oil over empirical scientific data so they willingly part with there money on expensive cables that don't or can't possibly deliver what they say they do.
Gene from Audiohaulics did a test on some very expensive I think around 20'000? speaker cables with active noise cancelation, that actually introduced noise.
I spent 6 years in the Marines repairing radios, so I can see when a claim may have some merit but it's generally quite obvious when their claim isn't based on any science what so ever.
when they claim a cable will make your music sound like velvety smooth chocolate. I mean W.T.F. does that even sound like?? if you can't measure it some how then it didn't happen. numbers and measurements please. if it changes the sound in a way that can be heard then you should be able to see it on an o-scope.
Interesting. reputable electronics repair shop. ran out after me to hand me the power cable, he said it was a computer cable and I’ll need a decent power cable for it. He asked how many channels are you running.(all) if you think about it 14/2 is being run appropriately 30’ from the panel and a if I get a 3-4’ cable will it make a difference? I always told myself no…
Smart man! Thanks for this story;)
All my cables are made of Unobtanium, so I'm good...
p.s. Your stereo system looks cool, does the helicopter improve the signal-to-noise ratio?
Great eye! The helicopter is there to rescue me when I’m in trouble:)
Your mention of the input transformer as a galvanic isolator is the best reason for not needing a fancy power AC cord.
I’m willing to except that there may be things we hear that haven’t been described. Yes, measurements are fine, but you have to know what to measure. It’s like making measurements on matter prior to the realization that there was such a thing as radioactive decay.
How about doing a video about why amplifiers sound different when essentially they’re all made up of the same basic. components.
Thanks so much! Yes the power coming thru the cable is so unimportant it is a simple joke. It is so sad that audiophiles are taken so easily. And yes then there is the galvanic isolation that nothing the human ear can detect can get thru. Then there’s the bulk capacitance that makes it DC, so below the human ear frequency. The amp is where the audio is developed and processed so that’s your question - where are the differences…. I’ll talk and show these differences. And yes I think we need to redirect our focus on what can be measured and how it can make a different - vs the marketing specs BS.
Love it! Keep up the great work and putting sunlight to a dark topic.
Thanks so much! I appreciate you!
I never thought about the whole "powerplant to landline to splitter to the house to the plug to Hifi system" thing. But for me it was enough to see what kind of wires they use Inside the speaker cabinets, to realise "yeah right I need 200$ the foot space copper 1inch thick with platinium banana plugs"
Great point! Thank you! It would be nice if the people that do speaker modifications for a business that also sell the expensive cables show that they mean it with the crossover wiring as well;) Plain truth is - power cables do not matter one bit;)
While perusing the audio offerings on Ebay, I happened upon listings for "audiophile" AC LINE CORDS? YES! For SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS! How?....I mean....HOW?...can anyone possibly think that an AC line cord could POSSIBLY affect the fidelity? Sure, the resistance must be low enough, so there isn't a significant drop in voltage. But even that isn't likely to be relevant, because I think by then, the insulation would be bubbling and dripping from the wires.
LOL I think you hit it on the head. Thanks!
They believe copper and silver have their own sound signature :)))
When I got started in Audio when I was still in school I thought that silver was so cool that it and gold could make a difference, but then I became a real engineer and after years I’m afraid that that idea is just like believing in the Easter bunny;)
My best analogy is my car runs better on the gas when the crude oil is shipped by pipeline rather than railroad. or electro diesel locomotive rather than steam locomotive.
LOL I love it!
Some just posted Hifi cable for a q990b sound bar and said theres a difference. Insert anchor man Ron Burgundy meme quote that says, I dont beleive you. lol
LOL - that's awesome!
I agree with you. But I do believe that the quality can make some difference. That's' why I make my own line stage cables and speaker cables with good quality components. But I don't spend a lot of $$$. As far as power cables go,,, well no need,,, EMI filter in the amp I build and that's all you need.
Thank you! I feel the same. Good quality even great quality is nice to use but doesn’t need to cost a lot of money.
Anybody remember peak music power output - PMPO ?
PMPO is a power level system can withstand at least one second before starting smoking...
This is one of the bogus specs that never really meant anything. It should be max power at some time duration into so many Ohms.
Yes this is another bogus spec that never really meant anything because it did not have the right boundaries.
All cable problems are the fing brass connector, iacs is maybe 20-28 percent conductive. Aliexpress copper connector are now affordable 20$. I can hear a difference in 5n purity copper and solid core copper. Even material quality is a argument nowadays but physically the shorter the cable the less noise/distortions it pick up, diy your average cable you can test yourself.
Thanks for your feedback. Connectors are important - as this is the place that can potentially cause noise. A good power supply design should be immune to anything but a really bad connection.
Science Is when you listen and there is a difference ' you buy if reasonable price '
LOL - but I think that has to do with fiscal responsibility vs science;)
Is the hiss on the video's sound track an intentional ironic joke?
LOL - I love it;) I wish I was that smart;)
What a shame! I thought James Hetfield was going to give me his opinion on power
cables! 😂
He did;) LOL Thanks for commenting!
Little science in current offerings but there are power cords that truly are revolutionary that the industry appears to apparently want blocked from release to the public
Thanks for that - but why would they want a power cord blocked?
A power cord literally is a simple line of copper to bring power from the wall to a power a product - there is no magic in a power cord. I just don't know what a power cord could do new - but bring free power from the universe instead of the power liine;)
@@KissAnalog Quite seriously, myPower Cords are not like what is in the market. My advanced technologies cords provide virtually perfect power that can easily improve the metrics performance of any piece of connected audio equipment within the design parameters of the cord. This improves several aspects of the experience.
@@KissAnalog it is simple, my power technologies and power cords show comparatively how deeply inadequate for discerning listeners the performance level most all current market offerings are even at the stratospherically priced levels.
Thanks - I'd like to see what your power cord offers;)
@@KissAnalogjust for the record...no pun intended...there are proven advanced ways to accurately capture and measure beyond what is known by some of the reviewers you note in your video. Actual Advanced Sciences are not voodoo or snake oil for those that understand and can prove differences that matter that others do not know how to detect.
The only place you need a shielded power cable is between a electric motor and a vfd (vfd are RF noisy)
Thanks David!
I’m with you on this man, I don’t understand the polarization at all.
Thanks so much!
HI Eddie, a lot of great information came from your ranting. Thanks 🙏
Thanks so much!
Truly excellent video, beliefs should never replace data and science.
Ones listening requirements depend on one’s hearing, there is no one size fits all.
That’s so true! Thank you!
These guys are for profit only. It is also why that same dude who preaches about crossovers says Paradigms are garbage, but does no measurements and can't admit to himself those speakers sound amazing using engineering in the woofer rather then the crossover. For people who pay 10k for a power cable they have bigger problems. Jays audio runs 3000+ watts of class A amps with a standard home outlet. That needs like 13000 watts from a 120v 20A circuit. So yes, if he can reduce the connection losses there will be a noticeable improvement, but for the average person, not a chance. It is not needed. But he is using the cable as a bandaid not a fix. My 2 cents, take it for what it's worth. Agree with you 100 percent on this.
Thanks for the great feedback! It is nice to know that there are reasonable people in Audio still;)
i would like to try one of the exotic power cables here in the uk on my kettle (240v 3kw ) if it boils the water faster than the supplied cable i'm sold if not i'll start selling re-branded kettle leads to the hifi masses.
LOL - that's awesome! Let me know how the hot water test goes;)
Great rant:-)
I think I may be in the middle because I do in fact believe that cables does make a différance, but not for the reason people normally talk about.
Let's imagine a complete system with countless cables crossing and running in parallel, I think this influences the sound, just as you braid test leads for the dmm to lessen errors. So in other words, do I think that shielded power cables can lessen hum and electrical noise.
I do also believe that some engineers have gone too far over in the engineering camp. One told me that if an amplifier is build without obvious flaws is it impossible to hear a difference on a $200 solid state class D and a $50.000 class A. It is even said in that camp that a $1000 complete system sounds exactly as a $200.000 system, that the only thing sounding different is the speakers.
Now to your editing:--)
I think your effects when you cut, to hide jump-cuts, is too visible, maybe a less drastic effect or maybe totally avoid affects and use other techniques?
EDIT: By the way, I have sent you a mail with a link to the former owner of Micro-cap'. :-)
Thanks Fried Mule! It is true that shielded cables can help in the interconnects, but shielded wires can come in the way by very low cost coax. This can be measured and is real science.
When I was watching the final cut I cringed at those cuts too;) But, I was too tired to correct them - it had been a long week.
Thanks I did attempt to make a connection but I’m afraid that he really has retired now. I haven’t heard back, but I’ll try through another connection.
@@KissAnalog Thanks, I do really hope we can get hold of him, it is to important to just been forgotten:-)
Yes coaxial or just some shielding may be what somebody hear in some cables. PS audio makes power cables where a power-on detector can't detect if the power is on or not.
Oh yes I know hoe it feels to being to tired to bother the last details:-)
I'm both surprised and disappointed that PS Audio would put their reputation on this type of snake oil.
@@KissAnalog I think that science review has indicated that PS audio may not be as innocent after all! :-)
If their power cables are shielding the 50-60Hz hum from radiating, could it then not work in at lease a minute way? I have no knowledge about it.
You can build an entire dedicated listening room for the price of some of these cables. People that spend that much cash on cables are in the "more money then brains" camp.
That's so true. Money is definitely better spent on other things like nice speakers.
@@KissAnalog I build all of my own speakers but yea. Amplifiers have gotten so good these days they don't matter as much as the speakers and the room they are in do to the sound quality. But that being said the same mentality that drives the market and ridiculous pricing for wires and interconnects is also present with speakers and amplifiers as well. I know how much work goes into making a nice set of speakers especially if you want them to look like nice furniture that fit into a high end room. So asking a few thousand dollars is more then reasonable. But there are speakers out there that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and I'm sure they sound great but lets not kid ourselves. They don't sound that great. It's funny how expensive "audiophile" gear is.
Recently I needed a new multichannel amplifier to power a set of 3-way floor standing speakers I made and wasn't about to pay the money that most manufacturers of good class D amplifiers where asking. So instead I opted to build my own. I put together six channel class D amp using an Icepower power supply and some of their 4ooA amp modules installed in a nice case and ended up with a amplifier on par with ones sold commercially for twenty to twenty five thousand dollars. All for under fifteen hundred dollars. Couldn't be happier.
the biggest concern to me is that you drank bloody duvel out the bottle that's just sacrilege 😡
LMAO You are so right to be concerned;) Actually I normally do poor it into a tuplip glass, but I wanted people to see the bottle;)
I remember the comparison between Monster audio cables and wire coat hangers. The Monster cables DID beat the coat hangers at MHz frequencies! They're better! Well, not really. Our ears don't quite work in that frequency range. Coat hangers beat Monster hands down at AF. Tests were done on an HP VNA.
Thanks so much Bob! I think I can do some tests similar as well. So isn’t the coat hanger better than - as it filters out the noise we can’t hear anyway?
It's like a guy selling a clock with painted on hands. He will defend the swindle by claiming that the clock does show the correct time twice every 24 hours. Yes, speaker cables will work as an antenna but not when connected between the speaker and amplifier. In my 45 years of experience listening to music by Reel to Reel, Cassettes, Vinyl Records, and CDs, through different systems in different houses. I have never once had problems with noise coming through the power cables or speaker cables. Just make sure the cables have a good gauge and that they are terminated properly at both ends. Cheers and take care.
Great feedback! Thank you!
People say that the type of metal used in inter connects makes a difference to the sound. I know it's not visible in the frequency response but after hearing average audiophiles on forums.. I'm sitting on the fence tbh. But power and digital side of things simply cannot make any difference. I will try to AB test inter connects one day- silver vs copper.
Thanks for your feedback. I'd be happy to hear what you find.
very insightful. Thank you.
Thanks so much!
Love your new merch Eddie :)
Thanks so much!
Something else I noticed, the pro power cord people when trying to defend their nonsense allway's bring in audio and speaker cables, totally diff. application and purpose.
I agree - the interconnects and speaker cables are a different story - still don't need to pay a lot - but they are different.
A note about likes. A lot of us watch on allegedly smart devices and the like button is kinda a pain to get to. I do it when I remember to think about it, but I do let the ads play. Likes might not be such a good metric. Not to mention the fact that many of your videos tend to inspire me to slink into my schloffice (shop, school, lab and office) to experiment.
Thanks so much! You are so right - watching the commercials thru actually is how CZcams pays me;) One video might only bring in a few dollars but now that I have lots of videos out - it does add up - if people are watching the old videos too;)
I don't know... Kiss Kables has a nice ring to it.
That really does - and that would have to be worth a few extra bills right? ;)
Beeing RF test engineer, it make me laught when i see claim from audiofile on some interconect 99% pure copper cable with some "special" prepertiones that impreove audio signal that berrly pass 20KHz, when I am running 26.5 GHz system on coax that use stanless still. For transmission cable the characteristics impedance , inserition loss and return loss are ionportant in RF world among coulple other parameters. Once you drop in low megaherz to DC i
the characteristic imedance becamo les relevent as the loss and reflection become miniscule. At 20 KHz you can use any conductor and it will have almost perfect characteristics.
On power cables that even less relevant.
Thank you! RF engineers can not be fooled by these claims;) Thanks for the great feedback!
Given your qualification, I bet you get an even bigger laugh when you hear these people talk about "skin effect" at audio frequencies.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 Yes lol, skin death at 20K is like 0.5 mm, and at 60Hz like 8-9 mm. Who will care about that on usual 5mm diameter speaker wires that are 5 yard long. The only concern could be passive intermodulation (PIM) when you drive the conductor to their specification limits. That values on RF cables could be 150 to 180 dBc below 20 W at 50 ohms load at 900 MHz (components for cell base station). You probably will need 250 time higher power on that audio cable to get the same effect at 20K. Even at 150 dBc , that signal to intermodulation distortion, or you could say signal to noise of 150 dB and your maximum hearing level is 120dB. That mean with loudest signal, the noise will be 30 dB or 1000 time lower.
That is a point of absurdity that I can easily prove;) I will do that when I do a measurement video;)
Thanks for the great feedback Miroslaw!!
I'm not even going to mention cable burn in...
LOL
I have a TV set which is not one the latest models. It is manufactured in 1962. It has a hot chassis, no mains power transformer at all. Or to be precise, whether the chassis is hot or not depends on which way the mains plug happens to be in the wall socket. There seems to be some room for improvement in sound and picture quality. So I am pretty sure that a HI-FI quality mains cable made of oxygen-free copper corrects the minor sound and picture problems. 🤔
Thanks for the great example. The issue with the TV is completely different than the quality of the cable. It has to do with one conductor being used as a Neutral (connected to the Chassis) and the other as the Hot conductor. With a 2 wire power cord neither should have been used as a Neutral. So the input filtering changes depending on how the plug is inserted. This is a very unsafe condition to have the chassis live.
@@KissAnalog It is quite safe to use if you don't touch any metal parts, and they are in a closed wooden cabinet. The remote however is not wireless, so you must not for example pour any drinks on it. On the other hand if you want to get rid of that nagging mother-in-law...
Goodness.....have a look at interconnect and speaker cables! Wow....when I was in that world, I was pitched cables in the thousands, for speaker, and alot of money for 1 meter interconnects. Crazy money....and yes, I have a burn in CD (never used) These days, I have good quality interconnects, and digital cables, mostly lower priced Cardas. Check out Kimber Kable's upper end!
Wow - thanks for the great feedback!