How to descend really fast, safely
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
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Join me in part one of a three-part series on mastering downhill cycling. Discover how I'm tackling my own fears to improve confidence and speed. Learn how the latest science of descending can transform your approach to corners, even the tricky ones. This journey is filled with unexpected insights and tools that could be your game-changer in safe and fast descending.
Watch Part 2 of this 3 part series here: • Increase your cycling ... - Sport
because accelerating is so much harder on a bike than with a motored vehicle, you most often tend to sacrifice distance for the highest exit speeds. i learned this through fixed gear racing, where even braking cost you energy ...
Sacrifice Distance ? Can you explain? What does that mean?
On a bike, you're happy to take the slightly longer way around a turn, if it means you can maintain a higher speed out of the turn. Of course, this very much applies to motor vehicles at high speeds such as in F1, but less so if you're in a car going at normal commuter speeds@@ExplorinDoranRBrown
With motor vehicles you often delay your breaking and turn into the curve later and tighter to have your wheels pointed toward the exit point sooner. You get into the slower, bit you can use the engine power to accelerate out.
With a bike that acceleration must come from your legs (fatigue) and/or from gravity when you are descending. This means that it's often better to not delay the breaking, and therefore breaking softer, and carry as much speed as possible into the curve.
Decreasing radius turns have caught me off guard a few times. Knowing your descent is pivotal before pushing any descent. Until then, lower the risk and break early and take the best line you can see. You can always start pedaling if you ended up playing it too safe. Banking in smoothly is another big lesson to learn. Smooth is fast.
Great clip! As a descend enthusiast i can agree 100%. Visability is key to aproaching the turn. Awarness of the road ahead is also very important.
When I learned to ride a motorbike I was taught the moniker “outside-inside-outside” to keep track of where you need to be in the turn. It still helps me.
Excellent coaching - very clearly explained - thank you!
Love the thought of clipping the apex with the shopping trolly, then deploying DRS to get to the reductions first. Great video!
Yes. I exaggerate the straightening of my outside elbox. I never thought of the shopping trolly/cart metaphor.
🎉🎉🎉 a very informative video
What software did you use to get the roll angle and g-force? That's pretty cool . I need that in my life. Do you need a gopro / wahoo/ garmin?
This is the software: goprotelemetryextractor.com/telemetry-overlay-gps-video-sensors. You can use your normal bike computer, but it won't be as accurate as using something that samples GPS data at a higher rate.
Great Video. Just discovered your channel after listening to your podcasts way back..
Great production value
Thank you!
I had a crash recently, fortunately my body got only a few scratches, but my self confidence got totally broken. I find myself now breaking before all the turns. It‘s time to go to basics and renew the skill.
I am a good descender. I had a front tire blowout at 40mph on a downhill a few years ago... *horrible road rash*. I'm lucky i'm not dead. Do yourself a favor and just slow down significantly... skill can not overcome bad luck. Amateurs bombing descents (which I used to do) look stupid anyway. Just go slow!
All the techniqe stuff is easy. The hard part is to know where the limit is, how fast you can enter the turn, without exceeding it.
Nice! Doing this in a group adds additional complexity as well. (Part 2?)
When entering a bend, my focus is not so much "where is the end of the bend" but rather "where does this bend's radius reach it's minimum". After that I can plan my speed/leaning/breaking. The bend's point minimum radius will will never appear later than the end of the bend.
I find descending more difficult than ascents. I'm fine with up to 10% gradient uphill, but even 5% downhill gives you lot's of speed, and I don't yet have skills to tackle the corners at high speed efficiently.
Securing the visibility of the exit, aiming for the late apex, unless the turn is clearly visible, doing all the braking before the turn help, but it's still scary af.
Nice video with good explanations. Concerning "seeing the exit": With modern bike computers in navigation mode you can anticipate every turn with a short look on your screen. That helps me a lot. And I am not even trying to corner or descent as fast as possible (I am not racing but touring) - I just try not to die, ride without fear and have at least some fun while descending :-)
But Pidcock does something eles that allows him to descend with extra speed: watch his upper body. He leans the other direction to reduce the pressure/physical force on the tire.
Gilbert was following the line the Moto was taking...moto took a narrow line and Gilbert followed, obviously the braking and traction the moto has is better than that of a road bike. One of the rules of racing bikes at club level is that when your at the front of a bunch, make sure you chose safe lines as the safety of the riders behind you depends on you. Meaning if you come off the road due to under steer, everyone else behind you is likely to follow. Gilbert figured out too late that the same line as the moto wasn't going to work out well for him.
Rule 1, go as wide as you can (within road and traffic limits) until you see the exit. This gives best visibility and fastest exit speed. Poor riders always pull in too early.
can you link the videos you recommended at the end? thanks and good video btw
Sorry man I am still finishing them off. I will link them as soon as I publish them.
@@semiprocycling A suggestion: until you get those videos done, put a text overlay, something like "videos coming soon" in your video at the end, rather than you just pointing to empty space.
I appreciate the suggestion. The pain is that the CZcams editor can only add videos, playlists, or channels as 'Cards', and you cannot change the video once it's uploaded, which is another option I've tried. Lesson learned though and although the same thing will happen in the next video (sorry in advance), I'll publish all at the same time if I do another series.
@@semiprocycling no problem man, I'm really looking forward to the next videos
Hi @ruftytufty11, the next video is up now. I took your suggestion and figured out I can add some "coming soon" text and then cover it later with the link to the next video.
For Gilbert: also, don't supertuck on winding roads... the time required getting back up to the saddle definitely didn't help preparing for this corner @10:30.
Well presented, however, a few flaws in the science.
I suggest researching “early apex” as that is the safest and usually fastest line selection outside of a purpose built racetrack as it delivers the exit closer to the inside of the turn, leaving more options.
Keep in mind that the apex is in the line, not the corner, so you move it where you need it. The confusing bit comes from multi apex terminology- a double apex turn can often only have a single apex in the line, but it sums the situation best so that is the term.
And just to point an obvious piece of the gilbert vid, the motorcycle was actually on the correct line, at the apex, when you stopped motion.
Source: former motorcycle roadracer, car racer, shifter cart racer, cyclist.
Again, well presented! (but follow up with one explaining late apex)
i use my garmin 1030 to show me how tights are the turns.
a super nasty, and prolonged, speed wobble where I barely kept it upright literally fkn' shattered my descending confidence, my mental game, long term.
the only thing that saved me that day from getting bucked off the bike was a leg up against the top tube that sufficiently damped the worsening oscillations.
A speed wobble (bifurcation between oscillating frame and fork) is terrifying on a fast downhill. I use BOTH knees squeezing the top tube to cancel it. A firm connection of the knees to the top tube changes the resonant frequency of the frame/fork so the wobble will stop quickly. I also do this when encountering gravel or ice in a downhill turn because there is a similar bifurcation effect on the steering when one or the other tire loses traction. This is (yet another!) reason i do not like new bikes because the currently fashionable sloping top tube (or top tubes with sharp stylish edges) make it to where my knees are not able to grab the top tube (tube too low) or it hurts the knees to squeeze (tube too sharp).
Also useful is to balance your bike wheels, which you can do easily yourself.
@@charlesz5607 it was on a compact/sloping top tube frame, and one leg up against the top tube (which was lower than ideal) was enough.
speed wobble is nastier than 'conventional' crashes, imo.
I am a skilled descender, but I rarely (almost never) use the drops while descending. This could be because that's how I learned it, bike fit issues, or flexibility in my back. I would likely benefit from a bike fit. What can information can you give us on riding in the drops vs. on the bar tops?
Being in the drops lowers you center of gravity, and I also find that it's a much better hand position to brake hard. Overall I find it much more confidence inspiring, and the only reason I would have not to be in the drops when descending is if I wanted a less aero position (which you sometimes want, in order to avoid picking up too much speed).
Look at motoGP and countersteering. It will help you increase your lean with practice.
Gilbert's problem was that there was a right hand bend before the tight left so his position coming out of the righthander put him in exactly the wrong position for the lefthander.
If you want to learn the racing line go play some driving games. You can usually even get it to show you the racing line for braking and position all from the safety of your home.
My advice is to be careful with the brakes… try to brake before the turn, and not to brake hard while turning or even entering a turn… especially if you’re carrying some speed.
Also, you can sometimes predict the road conditions! An example would be, If you’re passing by a section that has dirt ledges, there can be dirt on the road (especially if it rained)
Lots of helpful info about race line, I thought I understood already, but truth is corners are way more complex and usually multiple together, or hazards making them different to what the maps show.
Would be interested in a video detailing camber. Also when to wash off speed safely, as sometimes I feel like an uncontrollable runaway train on a straight section of downhill.
Braking and traction are coming in the next video. I'll also go into a bit more detail on camber for you.
What cycling computer and software did you use to create the HUD?
This is the software: goprotelemetryextractor.com/telemetry-overlay-gps-video-sensors. I've added some text and the g-force fill in editing. I use a Hammerhead Karoo 2, not sure what Pidcock uses but everything is run off speed or GPS data so any computer should be able to produce the same data.
@@semiprocycling Is this the same tool used to make the satellite maps overlay? I would like to use this to 'play' ride with GPS tracks.
@@chaosharmonix nah the satellite map overlay is done with Google Earth.
Also
Bring some "real" meat. Like 30mm+
I have a long endurance bike with 35mm in the French Alps whislt wheighting a chonky 97kg.
Descent are a breeze and I feel very safe
I’m on mobile and can’t see the video over your shoulder.
Hi @truvc, the video wasn't published so you didn't miss anything :/ The second video is up now, though.
My basic problem is that on the road, you have to stay in your lane to avoid hitting a car coming from the opposite direction. In this case, what cornering technique do i need?
use your lane properly.
If you corner based on the limit of visibility you can use more of the road. Always look at the furthest point you can see on the road. As that point gets closer to you, slow down, as it gets further away, speed up. This then focuses you on being safe and also extending this point of visibility.
I am amazed how many people cut corners when on a winding road. Lane marking are not guidelines. If you can't take a corner staying in your lane, you should not be riding or driving for that matter. The only time you cross a lane is when you are on a closed course. It also helps you corner more smoothly; having to make mid turn corrections is where you get into trouble. Learned that just after I got my drivers license.
Instead of, or in addition to, why not observe MotoGP for their body position on the bike? Lots of leaning the bike but staying over top of the centre of gravity of the bike.
Sa Pilipinas
Good video. It highlights the next-level skills that must be mastered to take a corner as fast as possible. Some notes:
Visual skills: cornering is often presented as a physical skill, but it's more a visual skill as well as one of judgement. As you've highlighted, a whole pile of sensory inputs must be taken into account. Apart from decreasing the arc, and hence, radial acceleration, a wider arc affords a better sight-line deeper into the turn.
Traction circle: this is often discussed in motor sports, but not in cycling. The traction circle, which you did not name but displayed in your video, is the maximum tractive force in any one direction. Forward acceleration is almost never maxed out as a humans never produces enough power to break traction on clean dry pavement, backward acceleration can almost always be exceeded by hard braking (i.e. skid), and maximum lateral acceleration is what the fast rider tries to approach at the apex. It doesn't not take much convincing to show the fastest way around a corner in an ideal situation is one where the rider is on the edge of the traction circle at any point in the turn. The approach into the turn is fast and hard on the brakes with most braking on the front, and as the rider leans deeper into the turn, braking is progressively lessened and balanced to transition into radial acceleration, then after the apex, the rider completes the arc and pounds hard on the pedals as soon the the bike is upright enough. This takes a lot of practice, which leads me to ...
Practice: there's no real shortcut to learning this. You can't learn where the limits are until you go over the limit. This limit is precipitous, and usually results in a crash. Ouch. Actually, there is one shortcut: learn from someone who has already learned it the hard way. By following a skilled rider, a follow rider can learn positioning and lean angles faster than trying to sneak up on it from solo trial and error.
"Counter-steer": you gave the impression that this means steering into the turn, but it's actually the opposite. A cyclist imperceptibly steers away from the apex to initiate a lean into the turn, which then causes the bike to start the turn. However, this term is really just another word for balance for single track vehicles: you never hear terms like "counter-skate" or "counter-ski" even though it's the same phenomenon. Micro "counter-steering" is done continuously while riding a straight line.
Good extras to add to the discussion, thank you. I covered the traction circle in the next video, which is up now. Counter-steering is going to be in the third video.
Oh no! I gasped out loud when you said you hadn’t descended much since you haven’t lived near hills for a while.
That’s a shame. I live at the top of a long windy hill which is always a fun way to start a ride, although the thought of coming up on the way back, looms over me on many a ride. If only it were reversed.
Bro, I'm glad you feel my pain! I love hills, but when a carpark is the highest place to ride (sorry, Denmark), there's no chance of finding fun descents. Happy to be back closer to some now.
Rule #64 // Cornering confidence increases with time and experience. This pattern continues until it falls sharply and suddenly (Velominati)
By the way, only way to go downhill safely is going slow, doesn't matter how skill or confident you are, the faster you go the riskier it is, tires may slip, a rock may be there, a hole, you making a mistake etc
Thanks mom
@@clarkebynum4623 take out the trash or you're grounded.
How do you have roll angle data?
Gimmick to look 'professional'. Although the intentions are good most likely, a lot of words are used to say hardly anything at all. Hopefully comes full circle in the video on braking, as this is pivotal to cornering.
I used a separate GPS module paired with my phone, then ran that through the overlay software. For Pidcock, it's generated from GPS data on his bike computer-a bit wonky data-wise, but useful for some specific insights. I am going to cover lean angle and g-force and their relationship to going faster on descents in the next video.
I'd like to have lean angle from my rides as well. Could you give details about this GPS module you're talking about and how to take that data?
@300w3 Try using your bike computer file first as it might be good enough, but this is the unit: Dual XGPS150A Bluetooth GPS Receiver, connected to my phone running Harrys LapTimer to record the file.
counter steering
Problem is not skill, is not knowledge, is not math
Problem is NOT knowing if your tire will slip on the next corner
Chance of that happening is really not big if you've braked before taking the corner and tyre pressure is correct.
@@Gabrielle4870 and what is a correct pressure? Every corner has a different surface, some are neat and smooth, others broken af, others have grava, others have holes
You get my point
informative, but I'm like srsly..if ppl don't know these basics, how the f can you even ride a vehicle?
14:00 i dont see this video - _ -
Sorry man, coming soon...
Hi @DISCOhooch, the second video is up now.
Nice! Thanks friend.@@semiprocycling
Fast and safe are impossible. If it's safe, it's not fast enough. Well, how could you call a speed fast, if you can go faster?
The most important is that for us, mortals, roads are not closed, hence you should never go fast downhill if you want to be safe. It's always risky.
watch the full video, to get to lured to the watch this video Here trick pointing to no video 🤨
guess I won't learn about those two unknown ways nobody knows about...
Hi @kevingregoire1042, the next video is up now. And a pre-warning: the third video is not finished yet.
@@semiprocycling part 2 is great stuff, especially on the G forces, but the angle is exactly like the fear line on motorcycle tyre, it’s not as strictly an indication of skills, knowing when to not go angle and displace the center of gravity is the major skil. Angleling is the minor.
Knowing when to lean forward and modulating the natural reflex of back lean in tight and fast corners is another major skill.
I’ll look at number 3.
Keep up the good job.
You are right nobody talks about those that way.
You are driving on the wrong site
Watch what video where?? Grrr.
Hi @sszibler, the next video is up now. And a pre-warning: the third video is not finished yet.
wanna go fast down hill? Learn to ride a mountain bike.
hmmm maybe watching motogp would have been better?
Watch the next video and find out why MotoGP style cornering doesn't work in cycling.
I stopped watching as soon as there is a pass on a double yellow. Nothing is worth that risk
I stopped watching when you passed dangerously
Dude, "How to descend QUICKLY"!! Fast is an adjective, so incorrect to describe an action. Basic grammar.
Where is the video about the bounderies of grip?
Hi @bucketlist.original, the next video is up now. And a pre-warning: the third video is not finished yet.