The Shocking Truth about Christian Orthodoxy - John Behr
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2012
- Fr. John Behr takes on those who dismiss Jesus Christ on "historical grounds," by explaining how historicism itself is problematic and, indeed, heretical. The alternative to historicism as our mode of interpretation, he explains, is Christ on the cross as the foundation of all our knowledge and interpretation.
The Very Rev. Dr. John Behr is the Dean of St. Vladimir's Seminary in Crestwood, N.Y., where he is also Professor of Patristics, teaching courses in patristics, dogmatics, and Scriptural exegesis. He also teaches at Fordham University, where he is the Distinguished Lecturer in Patristics.
This lecture was delivered as part of the annual Augustine College Weston Lecture series on March 23rd, 2012.
www.augustinecollege.org/westo...
Converted to Orthodoxy from Reformed Protestantism in 2014. We found the True Faith!
Glory to God!
i want to be an orthodox too
I also converted from Reformed Baptist to Russian Orthodoxy in 2004. There was and is no other way. May God save you, brother.
That was me also. I had to finally purge my thinking (in 2010) of nearly everything the was associated with Reformed/Protestant doctrine, because it was drenched in Age of Enlightement/Age of Reason theology. I have no regrets!!!
Roger McIntyre Exactly.
I was raised and baptized at 12 years old in the Church of Christ. I had heard about the Orthodox Church, but it was not till last December 2015, when I saw an documentary about Jerusalem, that I heard a statement which struck me hard. The Orthodox Church was said the be the church that Christ established. I pondered as how could this be when the Church of Christ was said to be the first church. Nonetheless, lead by the Holy Spirit, I researched my history and compared to discover that while I received a strong foundation from the Church of Christ, that foundation came from the Orthodox faith. With that said, I found an Orthodox Church and now converting to the faith.
God bless you
Bless you; you are an inspiration, and you are beautiful, body and soul... I have the same feeling that Orthodoxy is indeed "correct worship". I sincerely hope to join you in worship someday, God willing.
Having glanced at your channel, I'm curious; what does "arcturian" mean? (I could "Google" it, but I'd rather read a first-hand definition from a real person, does that make sense?)
Blessings to you Yarnell.
+cedonullidude To you as well
I converted to Orthodoxy in 2019, at first it seemed foreing, but then, paradoxicaly. I realized I had come back home. All Glory to Jesus Christ!
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Jesus wasn't a vegetarian he was Jewish so he would eat the passover lamb luke 22:7-8.
I’m Catholic and I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters!
appreciate this, from an indian orthodox.
I saw father John today for real in Durham, England, he radiates a lot of grace. God bless him.
Wonderful and powerful Orthodox Christian teaching here! A great video to watch during Holy Week.
*two weeks before the Holy week:)
Unless you experience it and LIVE it, you can't understand why the orthodox Church is simply the Church, the only one. God is an experience, not a theory.
Well said.
so so true, christianity is experiential as orthodox church understands it; is the passed on experiences/practices of the apostles, and it is a way of thinking, an attiitude, a perspective. It has a specific phronema.
@@SignalsOfVirtueEphesians 2:9 ***not of works, lest anyone should boast****
1John 1:8 ***if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.vs 10 If we say that we have not sinnned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us***
Thank you so much for this! I discovered orthodoxy whilst doing a course on the parallels and differences between it and Buddhism. The same wish to give real love and the desire to overcome hate - within our hearts and in the world- are present in both. Orthodox belief shows me how to be me in Christ and how to allow Christ to be Christ in me . 🙏
Just left the Catholic Church now joining the Orthodox church
I am very interested in the Orthodox Church. My wife, not so much. Prayers are welcomed. Thank you all.
Wonderful Lecture. We need to hear more of this kind of Christian Scholarship.
+Randy Churchill We do indeed ....
Actually if you have been a Protestant all your life everything about Orthodoxy is shocking. I was a Protestant all my life and I started reading books on the Orthodox faith and within a year I found myself converting more and more to the east. Most Protestants don't have a high enough level of curiosity to make the transition. It is not easy to make the journey to the Orthodox Church largely because Orthodox Christians are not that good at communicating their faith to the west. I think that is improving though. I see more and more on the Internet. The first time you go to an Orthodox Church it's like going to the planet Mars. As you begin to understand what the worship is all about you begin to experience the spiritual power and meaning of it. I am no longer a Protestant. But to say that with conviction will take some time and study. If your still trying to figure it out keep digging. It's worth the effort.. .
Randy Churchill Orthodoxy is difficult for the people to take a taste because today's people like the taste of coka cola of porn, quick cars ,different women, and generally of living at this life.When jesus want from us the sacrifice for him and the others,and to stop living for the material world.Ortodoxy teaches to give your blood in order to gain spirit
Argiris Milonas I understand.
Wonderful summation. Not until Christ announced on the cross "It is finished" did God finish Man. Christ is what it means to be human.
John Behr absolutely is a good historian. No use bashing a real scholar.
divine inspiration still exists, not all is written, listen to the inner voice of God. The light of Jesus Christ only begotten son of God is within us all. Let is shine through humility and love of each other.
***** God is love. See with the heart, and do with the mind, and you will be doing God's work.
yes.
+Evgnevius
We must give up our own pride, we must deny ourselves, in order to let GOD clean up our hearts of all the passions which are the roots of death !!!
your absolutely correct amigo! Read the scriptures they are our map!
+Evgnevius One could fairly say that their conscience, if they live a holy life, becomes the method of God's communication. I agree with you, but I do believe there can be hints of revelation through that.
I have met Fr John around 2002. He is a truly extraordinary scholar and a very gentle man.
very true my god be with you all orthodox God bless you ⛪💒
fantastic love this. Would love to become orthodox
Simon Shields
Why not become a Christian by receiving Christ?
Simon Shields The find your nearest Orthodox Church and come. All are welcome.
what do you suppose Holy Baptism is?
William Gill_Esq. Because Jesus left one church. And to feel the full grace of God that can only happen through Orthodoxy.
@@williamgill_esq.6487 Christ established a Church. When He becomes Orthodox, he recieves Christ as a member of His Body.
This is one of the most insightful talks I've ever heard.
Completely in accord with Catholic theology by the way.
The first half of the talk is absolutely devastating to Sola Scriptura.
The second half discusses how John calling Jesus the Logos of God means that Jesus is the very *definition* of what it means to be divine. It also makes clear that our purpose in being on earth is to learn to be a fully divinized human through obedient self-sacrifice. Scripture concurs. Heb 5:8 says of Jesus "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he *learned obedience* by the things which he suffered." (DRV) If Jesus needed to learn obedience, then how much more do we need to learn the same lesson?
"Orthodox" isn't for those that want a personal relationship with Jesus. It's more for those that like rituals to make them feel religious. And way too Catholic... most of their doctrines are false and so many contradict the Bible.
@@ytmember1 ""Orthodox" isn't for those that want a personal relationship with Jesus. ...." Where did you get this from, this could not be further from the truth???
@@SignalsOfVirtue so you dont know anything about it...
@@SignalsOfVirtue no you are stating what you think is obvious, but could not be further from reality.
@@SignalsOfVirtue well yes, I agree that facts dont care about emotions, but facts are that not a sigle Orthodox or any person that knows most basic things about Orthodoxy would agree with you.
The man is highly intelligent and very highly qualified. He is a man worth listening too.
We know Jesus lives and we belong to the family of God by the Spirit of Christ in us.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand".
Mon Dieu, Il est Magnifique!...Illuminé!
Marry me!
@@Mika-El- If you be driven by thoughts of romance, make haste
to recognize THAT what might please you, would not
my Lover Henri (Husband), two children & God...
who own my love and affection, as I do theirs.
And think of the others. All those who wait in line for
my hand. Imagine the bitchin' & consternation, spittin'
& stompin' that would issue !?
Gosh Darn Man ! They might even start-up cussin' !
i.imgur.com/rgu4D0X.png
Listening to this I feel as though I never really heard the Gospel before!
Is there a transcript of this talk somewhere?
What a brilliant man, and a great theologian!
Will Benton The world is stupid because King James with the story of Jesus hid philosophy and what is philosophy but knowing our culture...No one died and saved us from the perversions of our culture CAPITALISM
re-examine that Rx (prescription) friend... u r either way above or well below the recommended dose.
This is a wonderful lecture. Thank you for posting this.
if you want to reach the lost, must you dress like you yourself are?
Remarkable talk. Some beautiful insights I had not heard before.
Pity the audio wasn't the best... Thanks.
WONDERFUL! Thank you for posting this video!
"What made the Church catholic was that it embraced diversity." A statement for the ages.
Thank you for these videos! I'm a new inquirer into EO from Catholic SSPX.
read the saints and the church Fathers; they will show you with their lives what it means to be orthodox christian. the orthodox church is about the way of being.we are to acquire the mind of christ so we can be in a love relationship with God the father, son and holy spirit, as we were created to be, until humans decided they wanted to be in charge and be the powerful ones, became prideful.
Western Rite is an option!
I pray constantly for Christian unity. That´s what our Lord wanted when he prayed "that they all be ONE." It´s the only way the world will believe. I think the Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic church should lead the way.
only one true original christianity that is orthodoxy
Sadly people celebrate Luther and the reformation - the result which was over 12,000,000 deaths due to religious wars and now there are over 41,000 protestant denominations today. So sad
Christian unity can be achieved if we love one another in Christ in spite of our differences. We all agree on 90% of the doctrines anyway. I see myself as a Believer first, a Baptist second and Ecumenical third. If we all put the point of being a Believer first the secondary division can be overlooked. Jesus said that where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in their midst. Also, when the disciples rebuked a man for teaching in Jesus' name because he was not a member of their group Jesus replied that those who are not against us are for us and to let the man continue to teach in his name.
NIck Doe, how can you say that. Luther's movement was from God, and he led true believers out of the great harlot, which is the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that murdered all those saints... millions of them. I fear you have learned propaganda. Also, Jesus said he has come to bring division, not unity.
Nakis Peninta -- "correct faith" as in correct doctrine is not going to save you, or anyone. This is a deception. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ can save you... wash away your sins!
I am Roman Catholic of Russian descent. I fully enjoyed this lecture!
This is revelatory! Several salient points that make excellent connections and conclusions that expound the foundational truths of Christianity. This is worthy of seminary quality. Thank you!
Considering the quality of seminary education these days, I would hope it is considerably better than seminary quality.
The real Jesus, "before Abraham was born I AM"
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I have believed and prayed to Jesus a far back as my memory goes. My access to Christ wasn't by understanding theology but by the faith of a child. Jesus answered back.
hurray!!! so beautiful for your share
I will give you a fact that will move you. Did you know that the holly lights in the tomb of Christ ONLY appears to the Christian Orthodox? that says everything.
Beautiful! God bless you!
The amount of trouble i got in for asking these questions, only to be seeing teachers treat them so seriously is WILD
Aaahhh...I see now. It seems my interpretation "historicism" was off basis, I apologize. Thank You for
clearing that up, as Well as posting this very commending video! Praise Augustine College!
Welcome Yarnell McGee my sister in Christ! With conversion, there is a great responsibility that comes with it. Remember it is a way of life, Holy Apocalypse and not a religion (man made). It is the Church of many martyrs. God bless!
Yes, my brother in Christ, so very true. Our lives are full of much suffering as we resist the passions to perfect ourselves worthy enough to earn the crown of eternal life and enter the Kingdom of God! I read daily, "The Lives of the Saints", which gives me strength and encouragement through my struggles. God Bless.
Thank you so much. Is there a transcript available?
Thank you!
If Mr. Sudarevic, is truly Orthodox . . . he/we should tell all we know about our faith, and have all join us. In the true faith of Jesus Christ.
I was really liking this piece until I read the comments; this is not an apologetics video for Eastern Orthodoxy. It's not. He begins, and throughout, makes reference to Kostenberger and Kruger's "Heresy of Orthodoxy" for a reason, and it's not simply because of a provocative title. What he says, the Patristic sources, the Church Councils he appeals to, are in no way exclusive or particular to Eastern Orthodoxy - nor *excluded by*, say, the two dozen Catholic Churches and many-thousand-odd Protestant denominations - it's common to Classical Christianity, and even most Protestant denominations (of which the authors of the book are members). I'm confident the authors would appreciate this piece, and not think themselves less Christian for not being Eastern Orthodox or Catholic (whether they should or not).
Give us the truth of the gospel and we can have all the unity you want but without that you can't have any unity. You must be converted. you must repent. you must be born again
sammy strain What makes you think Dr. Behr isn't?
***** i cant even fathom how many people went to hell due to the perverse protestant insta-saved teachings. without trying to come to the likeness of God. sure if they were pure and ignorant, the punishment would be lighter but still its deadly. evagelicalism is one of the most dead and dangerous christian teachings ive seen.
I really enjoyed this talk.
Glad to see that the comment section isn't full of people hating on religion. God bless you all.
@9:27"its a fact that our only access to Christ is through interpretation". I'm perplexed. How about living experience of Christ?
You are able to have a living experience through Christ because someone translated the Greek into English for you and interpreted its context. What is it that you fail to understand about this?!?!?!
Greek is my first language. Are you suggesting that if noone had interpreted the writtings of the Apostoles then noone would have experienced his presence?
GraduadoFigo
No, I am saying that it is impossible for MOST PEOPLE to know anything about the New Testament without trusting someone to translate it for them. Even if the person being taught is being taught using icons, that person was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone who had the original languages translated so that they can understand the teachings (whether it be directly from the New Testament, or even icons).
So the point is, MOST PEOPLE rely on interpretation for their understanding of Christ and the Gospels. I AM DEFINITELY ONE OF THEM AND HAVE NO PROBLEM ADMITTING IT.
***** What language was the New Testament originally written in?
i do not know your religious affiliations, and it is not my business to ask. if you are protestant, however, i would ask you to consider this somewhat funny statement 'protestants believe every single christian is infallible except the pope'.
Any transcription of this? Please.
Unfortunately not, but there is a supplementary reading available on our website (link posted in description above).
"Greeks [don't] have a problem with them," it was two Greek brothers, Sts. Cyrill and Methodios, sent by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, St. Photios the Great, to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ and His Holy Church to the Slavs in Moravia, and they created a written language for them, "Cyrillic," which is the alphabet of the Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, and others in nations of Orthodox Christians, and translated Divine Services of the Church, and one of the Gospels.
Let me shed some light, St. Cyrill and Methodios created the Glagolic alphabet, later on their bulgarian students created the "Cyrillic" alphabet in Bulgaria. The bulgarian czar gave the order for the creation and paid for the job. After it was spread around.
I am Greek and u are right.
Well I understand on the day of Judgement God will not ask which costume party you belonged to but "How well have you loved one another"? Amen.
We can't even start understanding love, if we don't belong to the real Church that the Lord established. Moreover, with your logic we can be hindu and muslim and if we love each other we're good to go.. belonging to the truth Does matter, dear friend. Hope you don't get me wrong, dear. God bless.
bluewren Reilly
Wrong.
The ONLY question will be " did you receive my Son."
God the Father will never ask " what branch or denomination of Christianity did you belong to?"
at 51 mins on are some great points. "There is no surplus of divinity existing someplace else attainable by some other means." Great line.
brilliant, enlightening lecture!
Christ , like Socrates, wrote nothing. People wrote about Christ.
And like Socrates we learned what he taught and did because of people who wrote about him.
Agreed
THAT'S MY FRIEND'S DAD
Nicolas Eccles He is, or was, also the little boy I used to read to. Even then, he showed a remarkable capacity to see the wood despite the trees. This talk is brilliant!
said Peter about God.
BTW, I put the little picture of an Icon of St. Stephen beside my name because he is my favorite saint and my personal hero; NOT because I equate myself with him in any way... is this an acceptable practice? (I am new to internet; I don't the rules yet) 😃
people often put a picture of something important to them. my daughter uses a picture of the st. Catherine icon because she was born on the name day for St. Catherine wno is her patron saint, and coincidently, is a lawyer like St. Catherine.
10:00, the first writer in the 2nd Century who gave a coherent & comprehensive account of Orthodoxy.
It's just struck me how his entire argument concerning the failure of the original disciples to understand and even recognize Christ -- passionate and fascinating as it is -- depends on silently forgetting the three women to whom the resurrected Christ chose to show himself first. They needed neither the book nor the bread to find access to him, i.e. direct experience is more than possible and was so for those Jesus chose to show his resurrected self to first. It's only by accepting the already patriarchally-interpreted and formed official Christian narrative which recognizes only 12 (male) disciples and privileges them even in Behr's lecture here -- he mentions the women only to drop them from the picture -- that Behr can produce a reading which privileges canonical text and ritual over direct experience. I think that, for a variety of reasons, both of the two catholic churches -- the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox church, which also bears the title of catholic, i.e. universal -- have been wise to be wary of claims of direct, unmediated, private experience; yet, and even more than any of the Protestant churches, both do depend for their deepest springs and continued existence on Christian mystics, whose personal spiritual experiences (however much they are mediated by church teachings, as thy indeed are) testify to the ways God transcends both canonical texts (the Bible) and ritual (the bread/communion host). [Paradoxically, it turns out to be Protestantism, so often self-reduced to the idolatry of a text, which has least use and respect for the direct spiritual experience as exemplified by Christian mystics.]
well said.
The feminine facet of Christianity is a jewel yet to be fully revealed. But it will be. And when it is it will be like a sunrise revealing and overcoming a darkness that was not even known as such.
Apparently you haven't seen how much reverence the Catholic Churches have paid and continue to pay towards Mary.
That is not the same thing at all because the Catholic Church has sanitized all the femininity out of Mary. In Catholicism Mary in the Assumption is a being stripped of any feminine associations.
That is such a bizarre statement I can barely fathom it. Motherhood is literally the most feminine thing in the world.
The Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, are Not interpretations, they are eye witness accounts, written by their own hand.......
Where is your evidence that the four gospels are "eye witness accounts"? Do you realise how old these men would have had to be, to have written the gospels when they were written? I know of no scholarship that agrees with you. Please elucidate. Thank you.
There are not written by them.Thats why they called κατά Μάρκον that means what markos said etc.
Weren't written couple centuries later?
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc No, they were all written in living memory, before destruction of the Temple, which is nowhere mentioned. There is no valid reason why the named authors may not have written them personally.
@@itisnow And the Gospels are written in very plain everyday Greek
This claim by the Father that catholicism is toleration and diversity and heresy is intolerance is absolutely bizarre. It's just declaring black is white and white is black. He then has the nerve to marvel at how so many people think white is white and black is black. This guy is introduced as the greatest Orthodox theologian in the western hemisphere, and then he just gives us secular progressivism. This is what we get from the leftists who insist that men can be women and women can be men, that everyone will be better off if we raise taxes, that humans are hairless apes, and other such nonsense while they ridicule people of faith who hold to self evident reality.
The church councils would decide between two sides of an issue, and then declare whoever believed in the other side was condemned. It's beyond twisted to try to claim that they were the tolerant ones and the people they were excommunicating where the intolerant ones. I'm deeply disappointed to hear this trash coming from someone described as a brilliant theologian. This is nothing but secular progressive style gaslighting being shoved on the faithful.
And it's not that I misunderstand him - I get what he's trying to convince us of - that Marcian, in not accepting the consensus of the church, was the one attempting to impose his minority view on the majority, but the view is upside down. It's victim blaming. You can say the rape victim invited being raped by their behavior or dress and that is a logically understandable position while at the same time being wrong and morally reprehensible. That is clearly what is going on here - demonizing people who think for themselves as responsible for the intolerance and persecution that results from them voicing their opinions. Saying Marcian is to blame for separating himself from the church is just ignoring the fact that he separated himself because staying would have required him to stop thinking for himself. Father Behr tries to portray it as the church politely listening to him and then him leaving out of intransigence, which is like blaming someone who was assaulted for being in the position of being assaulted. Marcian left because he was told to change his thoughts, not because he refused to accept others disagreeing with him.
15:19, Arinaus' quote from a letter to Pope Victor.
Fabulous!
Can anyone spell the name of the saint he mentions @ the 10 min mark? It sounds like r e nay us? Thank you
irenaeus
I watch lots of these seminars at colleges and universities on all kinds of topics. I'm always amazed how careless and poor the camera work, visuals, the sound. Originally I always thought an attendant used own phone to record event, then at a later time added video to CZcams. Vids I watch are often at rich influential university. Why so poor? Taping done by volunteers on lunch? People doing recording are employees paid minimally, quick set up done, then takes smoke break? What?
How does history and legend interact? I know that Rev. John Behr believes that not everything in the Gospels actually happened, but he speaks as though they did. How is that possible? I would love to hear on that.
To become perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, is to give of yourself selflessly and in the great pleasure and joy the Father showed to the prodigal son.Give of yourself selflessly,in love of mankind and the joy and pleasure of giving gives us the uttermost spiritual satisfaction.I do know how this feels.If it is from your own need,as the widow's mite,as she was exaulted by the Christ, the spiritual reward is exceedingly wonderful.Our Father's Command is Life Eternal,his Good Pleasure
And here is the question: when is ‘not seeing something to be true’ a matter of refusal and ‘intolerance’? And when is it a matter of fidelity (to the Scriptures, the Constitution, etc.) and a thing beyond our control? - The term ‘tolerance’ applies to situations where you have a choice to tolerate, no? But do you have that choice here? And what gives it to you? 2/2
and this astute ascertainment does what exactly to orthodox theology?
This is frankly brilliant, an absolute tour de force.
Perchance, what scriptures brought about by "those" of the Protestant tradition from the Hebrew Scriptures which you refer to as "false"? Would you be so kind to list which ones that you think fall in that category? That is a very broad statement you have made.
I've been migrating toward EO for 42 years. But I'd never wave a flag and call anywhere the one true anything.
I think now I am beginning to catch your drift (looking back to your earlier comment), but please tell me if I am following you.
Could Arius say, ‘Those people speaking for the Church are intolerant?’ Fr. Behr (if I recall, but I am counting on memory) seems to suggest that Arius left the Church of his own free will because it stubbornly would not be persuaded of the truth he saw. Were those bishops intolerant? They were certainly inflexible. 1/2
[cont 1] listen to reason, refuse to reject heresy, and go on to spread said heresy, should and must be excluded, for the good of all, themselves included. They are not excluded out of hatred, but love. We seek to prevent them from leading others astray - which constitutes a grave sin. We also seek to ensure the Truth remains amongst us - not because we see the Truth as fragile, but because we may fall away from it. [cont 2]
Catholic crusader here. Sending squad love to all allied oriental and Greek orthobros ✝️☦️
What exactly conflicts in these two creeds?
Very well put.
What is the orthodox view of what happens to non-Christians after death? Is it the same or similar to Catholic doctrine?
brilliant!
interesting but can't stand how the sound goes in and out ....shame it ruins it
On google you'll find some descriptions...
Lecture begins at @2:16
Well, explain more what you mean by “the intolerance they were up against”.
If the 4th-C bishops said it was truer to Scripture (etc.) to understand Christ as both man and God (pointing to Scriptural evidence and rejecting Arianism as heresy), would that be intolerant? Or take the reading of the Constitution: if Supreme Court justices say it is true to the Constitution to reject some proposed legislation, could that be called intolerance?
Greetings from Orthodox Bulgaria, brothers in Christ +
Greetings back to you! +
Nice.
no sound!
Christ Has Risen. ❤️☦️
Nijjhar, do you know what "Prelest" is?
What about the difference between the Apostles Creed and the Nicean Creed. The Church by 325 ce had departed from the Christ's teaching although claiming to be Orthodox.
no essential difference - the Nicean is more complete and better worked out
I do hope that both the LXX and the Masoretic text calls us to: "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15. May all true believers be diligent to study God's Word, and learn and live His precepts and principles. Key scripture: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." That is both LXX & Masoretic. God bless you!
Both LXX and the Masoretic text are OLD TESTAMENT ONLY. Having said that , they do not differ in essentials: seek God, do good, love your fellow-man.
If I have misunderstood you, please accept my apology. I still stand on God's Word "a new command I give you, that you love one another." May God's love minister to each child of God in the Body of Christ.
Would it not be more realistic to recognize that some "heretics" left because they were intolerant but that other "heretics" left because they saw the intolerance they were up against was unacceptable. What group of people has at all times been properly tolerant and properly divisive?
The canonical bishop in North America were previously under SCOBA, then recently changed the name to the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops. Nothing has changed and the real issue of a unified church is swept aside. There exist no excuses, if the desire is strong. Meanwhile, they have dialogue with the catholics instead of pursuing the unity issue amongst all the Orthodox.
I want to ask about the Supreme Court. ‘The moment an appeal to authority is used to settle a difference of opinion authority is blowing smoke.’ Well, the Supreme Court settles such differences by ‘ruling’ on what’s Constitutional. Why is that ‘blowing smoke’? ‘If anything be true it can stand on its own,’ you said - so who needs the SC? - Are we not able to identify people who know better than us? People who have studied a thing deeper? Must the only supreme authority I recognize always be me?
Yarnell McGee, do you know that the Orthodox Church is a break-away of the present Catholic Church? In year 330 A.D., Emperor Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium, which was changed to Constantinople. With this transfer of the Capital of the Roman Empire, Emperor Constantine declared Christianity (now Catholic Church) as official religion of the Roman Empire and a “branch” of the Christianity, which was based in Rome, was put up in Constantinople. This branch of Christianity in Constantinople, later, considered itself as the head-seat of Christianity. This led to animosities between Rome and Constantinople,
which ended in the “Great Schism” in the year 1054 A.D. Christianity in Rome and in Constantinople excommunicated each other, and since then, the “branch” in Constantinople called itself “Orthodox Church” and the seat of Christianity was called “Catholic Church”. But, in 1965, report says, they have reconciled and the Orthodox Church has recognized the Pope in Rome as successor of the apostle Peter.
I believe you have it the other way around The Catholic church and the Apostolic Church (Orthodoxy) were one. It was not until the Great Schism that the Catholic church broke away from the Orthodox Faith.
Check your history again.
wonderable teaching
Born into a protestant church. Im swaying 90% to orthodox church. Ive read about the virigin mary but it's still something that I'm having trouble with. Still feel like the dead can't hear us because they are "sleeping" since God hasn't returned fornhis church. Can someone please guide me to passages and books anout this subject?
If you haven't already requested this information from John Behr, that may be a good place to start. Another suggestions would be to find an Orthodox Church and inquire your questions with a priest or attend a Bible study or question and answer session if one is offered. In this way you can get your questions answered directly from the source if you follow what I am suggesting. In Jesus name. Hope this helps.
@jessejames5335
Read Rev 5:5 and Rev 7:13-14 and you will see the Elders in heaven are talking with John. From this we can see that, while their bodies are in the earth "sleeping" their spirits are in heaven. They are able to communicate. The dead, or departed's status is often misstaught and misquoted from passages like "the dead know nothing".
Lets look at that passage in the 9th chapter of Ecclesiastes.
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun."
Well, its awkward to build any kind of foundation with this verse. Solomon spoke/wrote this with the divine revelation that had been given so far. We know later with the 1st Coming of Christ that the dead will in fact have a part in anything that happens under the sun. We know that Lazarus was dead, Jesus waited until he died from his sickness before coming to raise him back up.
Where did the dead go before Jesus died?
Jesus affirmed an older Jewish religious tradition that the righteous dead went to a place called "Abraham's bosom" but the unrighteous went to a place called Hades. Since the human has parts such as a body, and a soul or spirit, we should ask what is death? Death is the separation of body from the soul. Bodies decay away leaving bones, and even bones will turn back to dust. A soul or spirit doesn't.
Jesus speaks to the thief on his right, the one who repented. "Today you will be with me in paradise." Orthodox Christianity holds an ancient doctrine called "The harrowing of Hell" or "The harrowing of Hades" After His human soul (which was fully part of the Divine Logos, or second person of the Trinity) was severed from his body at death, He descended into the underworld. He proclaimed liberty to the captive righteous dead, such as Abraham, and Adam and Eve, and took the keys of Hell itself, and led them out.
You can google and research this term "The harrowing of Hell" to learn more.
So, in John's book of Revelation we see all these people who had been brought from that place, and now they were abiding in the place where angels are, a place where thrones exist, and an altar.
"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 8.3,4)
Now we can ask what the bible verse means when it says: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us".
If you ask protestant bible teacher and scholars, they will reject the ancient Fathers of the earliest church and deny that we are surrounded by Saints, who witness our lives. But the ancient church says something else. The living faith says not only do they witness our lives, they pray to God with us, when we ask them to. Not only that, but God uses these same saints to minister to the living body of Christ. Some times they bear miracles to us, or appear visibly and talk with us, delivering guidance.
They very much are not dead. They live in the place of the Most High, and they work there, and here. This is rejected by rationalism, modernism and Protestantism but is very much held by all forms of Apostolic Christianity.
In the 5th Century Christianity divided over doctrines of who Christ is after the council of Chalcedon in 431AD. This was a very long time before Roman Catholicism separated from the Orthodox.
This 5th century group of churches are the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Arminian, Indian Malankara and the Syriac orthodox. Originally the Georgians of the country Georgia were in this group as well. They are called Oriental Orthodox, and the ones of accepted Chalcedon were called Eastern Orthodox.
From the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman or Latin speaking western Church departed in schism, formally in 1054.
Now, all of these are apostolic churches that go back to the very apostles themselves with unbroken lines of succession. And even though they are in profound disagreement about a lot of things, the doctrines concerning the Departed are the same. The saints who died in right standing with God, in Christ, make their way to heaven to be with Jesus and the Father, and the angels. Rome added a thing called Purgatory where the stains of sin on the soul are bleached away, before being allowed into the presence of God, but it is a recent innovation or invention.
It is remarkable that such a broad and diverse group will keep these things in common and in agreement, but only protestants since Martin Luthor and Jean Calvin and protestants after them teach something else.
Lastly, let us speak about Mary. Or the Blessed Theotokos (Mother and Bearer of God). At the age of about 70, the Holy Mother died. She did not remain dead. But she either was transformed into the resurrected state by Christ at the moment of her passing, or after several days. This was seen by several of the Apostles as she was seen following Christ back up into Heaven. So, she currently is what all saints will become when the Lord returns to rapture the church. The bodily new person. This is called "the Dormation of Mary" or "the Assumption of Mary" doctrine.
The Dormation one is how the Orthodox teach it, and the Assumption is how the Roman Catholics teach it.
St. Paul says "At His coming, we will become as He is" Whatever Jesus is after the resurrection, we will be partakers of that. I do not think we get to join the Holy Trinity, but we become something other than normal humans. Thus, in addition to the special status of having given birth to God, the Son, she is also the first to be truly ressurrected. It is in this place or state we can realize she isn't like us normal humans anymore. More God given abilities, would seem to indicate more responsibilities.
Can she join us in prayer? Try asking her to find out. Bear in mind what Christ said on the Cross "Mother, behold your son" speaking to her and John. "Son, behold your mother" he also said. Now, if we are joined to Christ by Adoption, and are given all things of the house of God, be aware that we now have a Mother who cares about her adopted children, even the ones in ignorance about her. We have someone near and dear to Jesus, who will pray with us! How wonderful God is to grant us all such a blessing.
Pray and ask Jesus Christ our Lord to reveal the truth of these things. I have only put forward my human understanding of the ancient teaching of the Church, and I am not perfect. Christ is. He is without blemish or wrinkle, the very spotless lamb of God. Please forgive the length of this response.
7:19, an important section.
Why does everybody think Christianity has to be "tolerant"? When did Jesus or one of the Apostle even use this word?
I'd like to do a Reply to Alex462047 but God only knows where he/she is. It's impossible when YT cannot take us to the post that replied to our posts because we cannot find those replies at all amongst the thousands..
With the latter taken into account, why does the description seem to say that Father Behr is being critical of historical approach to interpretation when he is criticising the criticism of historicism, and not historicism. Afterall, it is we Orthodox that use history bear witness to its existence since the time of apostles, through its traditions, as presentn in the scripture.
Well said.