The Biggest Misconception HEMA Critics Have?
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2021
- According to some people HEMA is apparently invalid because fighters are not actively trying to bludgeon each other into a coma in sparring...
Concerns about sword blows that would be ineffective in real fights in history are quite real and frequently discussed. How do you score points in a way that discourages light tippy-taps? Different practitioners of historical martial arts have different opinions on this.
Either way, the most frequent complaint I've seen is that it's unrealistic because of armor. A rather strange objection, considering that the majority of medieval and renaissance manuscripts deal with unarmored dueling, not battlefield combat. The ones that do cover armored fighting show very different techniques for bypassing armor, instead of going "KNIGHT SMASH!!!", trying to batter it with a sword as if it was a steel club.
I also address some other points in this video, for example how defense and tactically sound maneuvers are more important in a historical duel than brute force damage.
More about how to defeat knightly armor:
• Why Armor Did Not Make...
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** Music **
Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
theslantedroom.github.io/stev... - Zábava
"Trying really hard to not go on a rant here"
*Video Cut*
You went on a rant, didn't you?
Yeah...
@@Skallagrim But why cut it, we like your rants, that's the reason we're here!
@@sephirothbahamut245 Rants can be fun but if you're trying to make a good response then a rant is inherently bad for it. The points will not be as well fortified and wording may be off, rants are basically a hindrance if you want to make a proper response to criticism.
@@Skallagrim 😂 love you man
@@Skallagrim Never change Skal
Saying that HEMA doesn’t work because of armor is like saying mele-infantry doesn’t work because of archers.
Or that hand to hand combat training is worthless because of guns.
@@VioletDeathRei or that cars are worthless because of planes
@@VioletDeathRei or guns don't work because missiles
@@thepunishersequence291 or your AK-47 doesnt work because of bombs.
@@sebastianriz4703 or spelling capabilities because there is auto correct
So when the military does combat drills, they're in fact LARPing because they don't actually shoot each other?
Military is full of LARPers confirmed
Airsoft is larping of the combat drills
@@dankkkboiowo416 airsoft is larping the larp
@@dankkkboiowo416 and cosplay, but it's fun as hell until some rich entitled bastard shoots someone else point blank with an illegaly trimmed AEG with too heavy BBs causing actual injuries because the "Kevin" got shot repeatedly by better players for not calling his hits...
@@SonsOfLorgar Said it so i didnt have to.
king Henry the 8th was once a gentle and well-spoken young man, what changed? he went to tournaments a ton and got his brain bashed in a couple times. He completely changed personalities and we now know him for killing all his wives. So it's pretty understandable that casual HEMA enthusiasts wouldn't want that.
Yeah I keep trying to tell people that when they talk about it
It's a theory, but it could also just be power corrupting him or revealing his true nature.
Ive never heard that but it could be true like football player Dave Megget turned into a complete psycho after traumatic brain injuries
I mean, head trauma can and has proven to fuck up the mind a lot, look at all the studies on football players
@@101Mant Many (I know not all) modern serial killers are also gentle and well spoken. While it's possible that traumatic brain injuries led to a personality change, it's also possible that he had the self control to behave himself, but didn't bother doing so when he felt secure enough in his position of power to confident to get away with doing whatever he wanted. It is also possible that he never _wanted_ to kill his wives but felt pressured into doing so by the social expectation to sire a male heir.
This just in, Fencing no longer an Olympic sport because "they're wearing armour" and "the swords aren't even made to kill you" lmao
Also the javelin throw, since it never kills anyone.
And archery, shooting, discus, javelin, boxing…..
Apparently, these people come to a shooting range only to immediately shoot the person standing right next to them. Cause, you know, targets aren't real combat practice.
Olympic fencing sucks though. Because their swords and techniques strayed waaaay too far from originals. Especially weapons, which twice or thrice lighter than actual steel blades and so bendy that you can't even protect yourself with it. Not even mentioning devolved rules making in some disciplines athletes to just go 100% aggression absolutely ignoring defence.
@@poilboiler I get what you're saying, but there have been a couple accidents where people ended up being hit by a stray javelin in sports. Including one killing the victim.
It's a truth to all martial arts that you can't practice deadly moves properly. (even in MMA there is a huge list of things you are not allowed to do)
And in armored fighting this would be even worse, since there is only moves that would harm or kill your partner. (Aside from grappling, having the partner fall down)
HEMA is a very legitimate martial art within the confines of what's possible.
Until somebody invents a full body protective suit that registers all hits with intensity/penetrative value while also protecting the fleshsack inside. (Damn I'd love to have such a thing)
Also, a large part of fighting in the past wasn't done in full metal armor, since that not something you can wear all day or quickly equip.
Yeah it was always tricky with grappling and throw moves because those are about mechanical restrictions and weight attacks that you do to break and to do injury and you can’t regular and obviously cant often do that in sparring
I've been begging and dreaming for that type of suit for many, maaaany years...
Well, to be fair, we have stuff like jousting with sharp lances pretty widely attested.
As well as ancient Pankration with pretty much everything going.
So you can actually practice deadly moves somehow properly, as long as opponents are roughly well matched and know when to stop.
Stuff banned in MMA is mostly what would make "broken" or/and ugly fight, or easy injuries, like groin shots, hair pulling, eye gouging.
"Deadly stuff" would generally be any legal technique applied when opponents not resisting anymore.
Or just had cracked due to knockdown/throw and slam, but it can practiced thanks to soft floors.
Actually there are a lot of movements you can do in well made , fitted armor that will not kill your opponent. Though the most effective strikes against armor do have a chance of killing your partner. Or at a minimum injuring them.
Which is why even knights where careful in training even with armor on.
A properly fitted suit of armor is a custom suit that is tailored to a specific knight and is somewhat like a second skin once your use to the weight. Because of the articulated joints that move like you do.
The ideal that knights where these slow clunky armored tanks that wore 100 pounds of armor and had to have help from a crane to get on a horse is a Hollywood induced myth.
The entire suit of a knight including padding and all the plates combined was no more than 60 pounds. And that was distributed across the entire body. The average US soldier carries more than that on his or her back during a ruck march.
@@John2r1 60lbs was generally for cavalry configurations as well. Garnitures set up for foot use tended to be a bit lighter.
You’d think that the existence of armor would make techniques more important since armor would make wild, random swings less effective.
On the other hand, you could throw your weight around with some amount of abandon in heavy armor.
While when any decently stiff poke of a spear can skewer you trough, you're going to be very, very careful.
A lot of people are under the impression that any amount of armor means you're invulnerable. As someone who's into military vehicles, I see this quite a bit, people who think tanks suck if they can't absorb a nuke to the upper front plate and carry on as normal. They don't understand that whenever armor gets better, armor penetration gets better by a much greater degree. After all, thick plates will always become outdated, but a powerful gun or powerful round will always be effective, same as a thick suit of armor will be countered, but a sharp, well balanced blade will always be useful
Armour is basically licence to fail. You should still go out of your way not be hit, but armour gives you peace of mind if you slip up.
@@filmandfirearms yeah something people have forgotten is that humanities capicity for destruction constantly outstrips its capicity for defence. Defence helps but, we are constantly finding ways around it. it just so happens the gap in the last hundred years has become so vast there isn't a whole lot that can be done to even close to bridge it.
@@filmandfirearms basically any technique that uses an oponents weight against that oponet is highly effective agenst humans in armor. It's not like the metal shell magically gives you stronger joints ;-)
"HEMA Meta of light touches." Look kid. We're not trying to kill each other. It might look like we're trying to kill each other, but we're actually friends. I kinda wanna to have a couple beers with these guys after practice, and that's kinda hard to do if I cave in his skull with a Federschwert. Okay? If we didn't have the "Meta" of "Light Touches," we'd quickly run out of HEMA practitioners that aren't in the hospital, to spar with. What about the USPSA "Meta" of shooting steel targets, instead of each other? Wouldn't that be more realistic? Well yes, but it wouldn't be Practical. The Marines don't even kill each other in training. The SEALs don't do that.
And it seems logical that that would be as true for Medieval fighters as it is for modern day ones
@@madnessguy010101 A lot of things "Seem Logical" unless you actually tested it. Skallagrim is one of the guys that actually tests this stuff. I suggest we listen to him, until we've actually tested this shit. That's why it's called "Peer Review."
That’s right, your training is not complete until you survive a few real battles. What we like to call training is better called warm up. 👍👍
And not just that. Overcommiting can easily backfire. And there is no much point to it. Why give it 100% if just 20% is enough to make a cut? Also i think it is obvious that people fight less "seriously" when practicing new moves or sparring in their own club, and harder when they do tournaments.
@@madnessguy010101 Indeed. Even morr so in a time when even light cuts can be fatal if proper treatment was not readily available (or nonexistent, or based on superstitious nonsense) and the wound happens to get infected, there is a chance you are screwed. Blood poisoning can be merciless.
What many people often seem to forget with this kind of criticism is that often, the amount of armour on two opponents was not always equal.
I would even go as far as to say, in history it was almost never an equal amount/quality/sort of armour on either side (outside of official tournaments of course).
@@galdramann2478 depends
@@galdramann2478 your right pretty much except certain civil wars
As a Buhurt practitioner (Battle of the nations sport name) and HEMA practitioner, let me point out some differences between this styles.
First of all, in Buhurt we do some historically accurate fighting tecniques, in order to fight more efficiently. But keep in mind, that this is a sport, not a martial art, and here comes the diferences between this two "styles".
In HEMA, most of the combat is treated like unarmored combat, for the reason (and this is my opinion), that is mostly based on duels. And in those times, with the exception of combat trials and such, most of the times you will be challenged to a duel, you will have only your sword, and just that. Also, and this is just a thougth of mine, if you practice not depending on having an armor, when you have one, you will not be hitted that much (and armor can be damaged, and you can be killed with one. Not being hit, is a much better defense than having an armor).
In buhurt, also, thrusting is not permited. That is because is the most efective way to kill someone in heavy armor, and we don't want anyone to be killed. Even thouth we don't use sharpened blades, a thrust to the eyes... Is not pleasant, to say the least. That changes a lot of the combat styles in buhurt. A lot of guards, a lot of stances and a lot of movements, when you have in mind that nobody will pierce you.
The way to see this sport, is like that. Is a sport. It has rules, it has specific sets, and leagues and all of that. Please, do NOT take it as a proper representation of actual combat. Because actual combat in medieval times, whould be a mix of both buhurt and HEMA. Thrusting, punching, kicking, grabbing, pushing... In resume, using every single skill and ability you have at your disposal to survive the battle.
If you read untill here, thank you and have a nice day :)
Thanks for the info about Buhurt. I do agree that real historical battlefield combat might be somewhere in between Buhurt and HEMA.
@@Skallagrim Glad to be of service :)
Well said. Peaky things like not actually trying to hurt someone always gets in the way of historical accuracy. Here's hoping we get full dive VR soon or sparring robots so we can go all out.
Meanwhile mine and other Hema schools in Italy during historical reenactements of battles apply the techniques on the battlefied... Thanks god I use a shield :|
well what you say about hema being mostly based on duels is kinda wrong but not wrong altogether. there are different kind of duels, armored and unarmored. mock combat and to the death. BLOSSFECHTEN, which is what most hema schools do is supposed to be unarmored combat to the death. all this becomes apparent if you read the manuscripts and not just look at the pictures.
“HEMA doesn’t work because armor” even though there were armored based systems. I’m not sure if the commenter knows just how vast HEMA is in terms of scope.
Armor isn't just plate... Why don't they get that mail exists too
@@demonking86420 exactly, it’s a diverse art and more of an umbrella term for a wide range of history.
He almost seems to dismiss the idea of a trained soldier or fighter being a thing in medieval Europe. Which I think would have made the establishment of the Roman Empire quite difficult.
Saying hema doesn’t work because armor is like saying Asian martial arts like kongfu don’t work because of swords and hammers
@@Outside85 “when you wanted to make an Empire but your soldiers were inept combatants” that’s what it sounds like.
But Skall, bashing people with blunted weapons is an awful lot of fun.
People do that all the time in HEMA
People do that at the voting stations 🤣😂🤣
i know youre joking but that is exactly what bothers me about battle of the nations. I dont understand where the fun is in mindlessly bashing. Why cant people appreciate the beauty, skill, and "chess game" that goes into effective disciplines like HEMA.
@@habibishapur simple, untrained people can't find the beauty in things they don't understand. Take grappling martial art for example, the average guy can't understand what's going on, all he see is 2 guys hugging each other on the ground. Which is why MMA and Grappling competitions are not as popular as boxing, because the average guy can understand 40% of what's going on when there's just 2 guys restricted to punching each other in the face
Same as HEMA, every untrained person think they could handle a weapon by swinging it wildly with just arm muscles, which is why they found battle of the nations more looks "better" than HEMA competitions, because it has alot of wildly swings with just arm muscles
@@jaketheasianguy3307 right. but isnt someone with enough interest in historical combat to participate in something as niche as battle of the nations, also interested in, well, historical combat? My issue is with the fact that the only people who BoN would appeal to, have to be both history buffs, and not care about history at the same time.
I would not want to be hit with a sword (blunt or otherwise) in my hand even if it was protected. A couple of years ago I participated in a HEMA seminar, the last day was dedicated to sparring. In one of the matches, one of the practitioners was wearing metal gauntlets. He had such bad luck that the tip of the sword of his opponent slipped right under the metal plates, and hit his unprotected finger. If I recall correctly, the tip of his finger was broken.
I mean, it was just a matter of awful luck, and hits like this one are uncommon to say the least, but goddamn.
Yes, I've taken some extremely painful hits on fingers at unfortunate angles. Even with good gauntlets the hands are somewhat vulnerable.
Gauntlet failure is a rather common cause of injury in reenactment combat.. I once mutilated someones hands with a glauve because his gauntlets failed and fingers were exposed. I stuck with mittens
@@Skallagrim People often don't understand that armor isn't this magical barrier that protects you from all harm. You have to know how to use it, which can take as much or more training and practice than your weapons. One of the major things is you have to learn what bits need to be actively protected and how to do that, because the armor doesn't protect everything equally well. Even the most sophisticated plate suits always had areas like the armpit and the inside of the elbow that were extremely hard to protect and you needed to actively guard.
Was once a very minor background character in a play (30 years ago now?) and was backstage with a close friend, we were sparring very gently with wooden prop swords to pass the time (This was before the internet really being widely adopted and stuff like the HEMA community of today was very hard to connect with, but we had the manuscripts :D). Anyway, the male lead was watching apparantly and came over and was pointing out how unrealistic our "style" was (I mean, we were both doing messer drills with these wooden falchion things) and was basically showing off for the girls there, he was VERY COOL, he could fight much better etc etc. Yes mate probably, yes yes. Anyway he kept it up so long I eventually agree he can try and hit me, he grabs the thing with both hands, fingers meshed like he's going to pray with it and swings it at me about 20cm out of measure. I stepped in low, and I gave him the lightest of taps on the shin straight away to wake him up to reality without really hurting him in front of our friends, and the way he reacted, you'd have thought I busted his leg with a sledgehammer, actual tears flowed. Well, actors, what can you expect I guess.... Anyway he never spoke to me again and acted like I'd led him to an ally and beat him up or something.....
@@guypierson5754 you did far worse, you impaled and shredded his hindenburg sized ego bubble like an exploding target at a Texas gun range festival, right there in front of the girls he was trying to impress... XD
And I applaud you for it!
Even in unarmed martial arts, most of the time you spar with just slow light touches, tagging each other with your hands and feet instead of punching and kicking each other, except when you're grappling, to avoid concussions. So why do we have to crank up the force when weapons are involved ?
Untrained people have this very naive idea about martial arts in general is that you beat your partner up every training session and come back home full of injuries. They see smart and light sparring as "ineffective" method
Exactly. Regular sparring in MMA or boxing can't be done full force due to the risk of cumulative brain damage from all the hard hits to the head. According to "Dim Man" I guess that means it's not a valid martial art...
I think the commentator thinks sparring/training should be the equivalent of Warhammer 40k training where in like the worst cases 90% of aspirants die during training.
Please, only 90%? Those are rookie numbers. You keep training until you’re the only one standing and all your sparring partners are dead.
@@didierpelupessy You of course are right and I was trying not to shock and horrify any potential readers.
I think most of these misunderstandings might come from the fact that when people imagine historical European melee combat, the first thing that comes to mind is heavily armored knights on a crowded battlefield, not two unarmored guys trying to gut each other on back alley.
To be fair he tried to gut me first, I just insinuated his mother was a sow.
@@VioletDeathRei Perhaps it would have ended better had you merely insinuated that his mother was a hamster?
Actually I think its because people like shad openly say that HEMA is a 1 to 1 substitute for medieval warfare. When a number of the practitioners say this is equivalent to real combat, that's where the issues arise.
I appreciate the correct pronunciation of the ch in Lichtenauer
Yeah People in the anglo-sphere have trouble pronouncing the ‘ch’. I am always amused by the way American gun owners pronounce Mannlicher as Man-licker.
Isn't skallagrim German?
@@gerudo849 Nope, I thought so as well the first time I heard him but he's canadian.
@@ChristianThePagan true
@@AnimeFan9833 I believe he's born in scandinavia though. Iceland I think.
Being against HEMA is like being against martial arts in general... most people don't do it to actually fight. HEMA is simply people exploring martial arts of the time that were part of European history. Also, as has been pointed out, not everybody wore armour, and even those who did didn't wear it all the time. This isn't an RPG where you can walk around all day every day in full armour and it's totally fine.
I disagree. I love HEMA for being a window into history started by curious historians wanting to breathe life into a lost part of our history. A history that is actively being tried to erase. Most traditional martial arts are ineffective fantasy BS made up by con artists to part mall ninjas of their money throughout the times.
@@habibishapur I practiced traditional Goju-Ryu Karate from the age of six to twelve. It's the basis for all my later marital arts, I've trained in kickboxing, Mauy Thai, Sabre and kenjitsu along with basic wrestling. You can't flatly discount all traditional martial arts just because it's been mythologized. That would be like saying all Culinary Schools are bullshit just because some of them only teach basic techniques and give you a diploma.
@@habibishapur never seen a comment that cries I grew up in the suburbs like this one.
@@habibishapur The guy didn’t explicitly state traditional martial arts just martial arts in general. And with the growing availability of Kickboxing, Boxing, Muay Thai, and even MMA to an extent, these full contact sports are becoming more and more standardized. So I don’t understand the relevance of your comment. Especially considering that there are definitely a decent amount of traditional styles with real viability. This sounds like its coming from a guy whi has never been in an actual martial arts gym let alone a fight, though this is of course speculation.
since you all seem to know so much about me ill let you know i didnt grow in the suburbs. I grew up in the south american ghetto where you, wanna be tough guys wouldnt last a day. seriously ive seen american ghettos. they look like malibu next to south america.
I also grew up practicing karate and kung fu and always thought the movements seemed very odd and ceremonious and whenever there was sparring, everyone would just revert to kickboxing. I never questioned it because martial arts are conveniently sorrounded by mysticism and respect (not questioning) your master because of tradition. Huge red flag.
As an adult I practiced MMA and BJJ for 2 years and boxed for fun on and off for about four. Thats how i learned the difference between an effective martial art and flashy nonsense made up to take money from impressionable fools before the existence of the internet as a fact checker.
Also, had an interesting encounter with HEMA person that talked about how they would get other knights to the ground and then stab or smash them due to the sturdy ground cancelling kinetic recoil that reduces damage. They promoted grabbing people in armour who you would stab because the flexibility of kinetic energy recoil was prevented by hard ground, wall or strong grip so blow would penetrate or do more damage.
Isn't that just sort of common sense though?
This is like the chopping block point Skall made in the video, just scaled up for things larger than fingers.
@@dweebs4489 Common sense is a depleted commodity among keyboard warriors. I've long since out of touch with martial arts and focus on hunting with rifles, but I know that any people who do proper light sparing for years and years would fuck me up in close quarter. Proper training and guidance matters.
His misconceptions about armor isn't just a HEMA issue, Europe isn't the only part of the world that had swords and armor fighting. Plus you need to learn how to fight unarmored and armored opponents. Not everyone on the battlefield is going to be covered from head to toe in plate, some may just have a helmet because peasant conscripts were a thing and when you have to buy your own armor and your a peasant...
Exactly. Also knights are overrepresented in medieval art in fiction, which I think makes a lot of people thing that the all of the combatants in medieval Europe were knights with the best possible armor. Not to say peasants didn’t have armor. Some of them can and did own plate armor, but many didn’t. And the types of armor a peasant might have will generally be less protective then a knight. If you look at medieval illustrations the few times peaseant fighters show up they tend to have at best a helmet and a gambeson. Maybe jack chains if their lucky but that’s about it. It’s silly to think that there’s no purpose learning combat against lesser armored opponents given that historically it was often the case the majority of fighters were less well of them knights.
This part is just speculation And also a bit morbid but a lot of the killing a knight might do i assume is against you know.... civilians who took up arms during a raid or siege. I mean the constant chavuchee of the Hundred Years’ War for example, of corse French peasants sometimes fought back, and generally speaking they would have little to no armor at all. Not to mention there were several major peasant rebellions in medieval Europe so that’s also a thing.
On the battlefield you fight in a formation thoughm often with walls of spears or pikes.
@@robertharris6092 Generally speaking yes. Of course skirmishes were also extremely common in medieval combat. Formations were alot looser then they were in antiquity as well, but still very dense. As for pikes and spear walls that depends on the period. That's more early middle ages then the plate armored knight. Although pikemen saw a resurgence in the late middle ages
In a related story... I knew a guy years back who was really good at talking the talk of knowing how to handle a sword. He convinced me - and several friends who'd been doing HEMA longer than I had - that he knew what he was doing and had experience in spite of being younger. We were told that he was a member of a HEMA club in his home city when he'd been younger, but left when he moved away. We didn't have any contacts (we do now) with the club he claimed to be part of (he'd actually been banned from it), but he spoke intelligently enough that we trusted him.
I took him to a local store where he bought a wooden training sword, which was noted to only be suitable for light sparring. I had a couple of wooden swords, one European style and 2 Japanese bokuto, but mine had thicker blades and were a bit heavier duty. The European style sword I primarily used for form work rather than sparring, but I was willing to train with this guy because as mentioned, I thought he knew what he was doing.
He came at me not only full force, btu full force after we'd agreed to light sparring, while we were both wearing minimal protective gear because I didn't think we'd need to armour up for light sparring, and with his wild flailing swings frequently aiming at head-height (me being taller than him) in spite of having agreed for safety reasons to not aim above shoulders. When I tried to call time out he said that "you don't call time out in a real fight" and when I explained he wasn't sticking to light sparring, he insisted that "it's not proper training if you don't go all out" and kept going until he managed to snap the blade of his sword against mine. Which happened in large part due to incompetent edge alignmen which resulted in several blows including the one which finally broke it being landed more with the flat of his thin wooden blade than with the edge.
He gave a terrible non-apology while blaming the sword for breaking and making it sound like that was what he was sorry about not his behaviour in the sparring session. He said he was going to go to the shop for a refund the following morning, so I accepted his apology with as much sincerity as it deserved (which he didn't notice), and agreed to go with him. He was initially offered a replacemen sword, and rejected the offer before I could speak up, demanding that the manager comes to answer his complaint if the guy at the counter can't give his money back. The manager happened to be a friend of mine, and was the person who had sold him the sword and advised him that it was only for light sparring, so when he came out and asked what's going on, I stepped in.
"This asshole wants a refund for the sword he broke while refusing to stop attacking me even after several attempts at explaining that attacking someone with full force isn't what light sparring means. I specifically stated that I wasn't willing to keep sparing with him prior to the strike that broke the weapon, so he's lucky I'm not also pressing charges against him for armed assault."
Strangely enough, he never did get his money back...
Glad you came out of that prediciment okay and that he broke the sword before he broke you. The dude sounds like a douche. Anyone can be as chill and fun to talk to but as soon as someone gets the idea that it is okay to potentionally hurt their friend during agreed sparing is completely unacceptable. Hell even when light sparing me and my friend absolutely hate it when we actually hurt each other and try to mitigate harm done im several ways. One by using loosly tied kendo swords so they absorb more energy or hopefully break if a hit is too rough. We never aim shoulder high, and as Skall says. We end each strike at the point of impact (and most of the time we keep each other as far away as possible. Just barely out of range so if one of us can see that an incoming cut it stronger than need be, we can dodge it easier.)
Glad he didnt get his money back and you got to keep your head.
@@sebastianriz4703 I'm glad too - it was a scary moment and I'm lucky I learned the lesson without any real damage.
Yikes dude, consent is a thing. I mean that's true in any situation, but /especially/ in a situation where injury is a distinct possibility.
If someone says "stop", then you immediately stop whatever you're doing to them.
@@a-blivvy-yus to be fair, as soon as you called for stopping and he pressed on, you had been fully justified to go all in to try to incapacitate him in self defence and make a citizens arrest.
@@patheddles4004 If I had felt like I could do so safely, I might have. As much as he lacked technique, he was bigger than me and had more physical strength. I wouldn't have trusted myself doing more than the defensive actions I took in the situation though. I have gotten more skilled and a bit stronger since then (still smaller than the guy though) so if something similar happened again I might be able to handle it differently, but I consider it to have been a lesson in how not to get into that predicament to begin with.
I have never heard of any sparring where you go all in. The purpose of sparring is to practice techniques against an opponent. First you practice alone to learn the techniques, then you practice against someone to learn how to use them effectively... as in learn when to use them. If all your practice is solo then you will die on a battlefield or get knocked out in a boxing ring because you do not have the proper skills to go against another person. It is practice, that's what sparring is and only what it is no matter if it's boxing, wrestling, or sword fighting.
Tell that to Mike Tyson. Guy used to pay people by the round to beat the hell out of them in sparring. Same with Ali, Mayweather and another of other greats.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he Thats different, they were at the top of their game and with many years of experience in their field they basically knew inside out about what they were doing and could benefit from that sort of training. For the rest of us that sort of training has no real benefit and people get much better results from bouting, sparring at a more sedate pace in order to practice and perfect their timing, distance and overall technique. Thats very hard to accomplish in training if someone is trying to hurt you.
@@shaundouglas2057 While I do certainly understand the safety concerns involved my two cents is you react the way you practice.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he Everytime i have seen people constantly sparring at full force their skills are lacking when compared to those who take the time with their intensity and concentrate on their technique instead of trying to hurt their opponant. Yes as your approaching a fight you can up the intensity level and spar more intensily but still not at full intent. Leave that at the fight (I'm talking about non weapons martial arts here, no one in hema should bout even in tournaments at full force for obvious reasons)
I have seen it time and time again those that only spar with the intent to knock each other out become way to timid, as in concerned about not getting hurt and that they never learn the techniques properly and when the time comes to actually fight in the ring their skills are severly lacking. Even the Mike Tysons and Mayweathers of this world would only do that sort of sparring when getting ready for a fight, the rest of the time they would be going more lightly.
@@shaundouglas2057 I'd say that depends greatly on the person. I've boxed with some guys (local toughman level stuff) who the second they get hit hard their first reaction is to just cover up, look away, or literally try to walk away. That's not a good reaction to have. You need to have experience with full contact to learn how to react to force with force. Also I just don't don't think it's very realistic when you have one opponent who is half again the size of the other sparring to both being doing just light touch. Those two shouldn't be sparring to begin with. It's one thig to work with kids and build up their confidence, it's another if you are claiming it's representative of combat.
Bit of a disclaimed here I grew up doing the typical thing a kid whose dad was into karate did in the early 90's. I went to Karate at a local McDojo. Typical childhood fighting that meant nothing in school. Wrestled in highschool, continued with the karate thing into college. At 25 ended up getting arrested for beating my then fiancee's ex husband half to death with a bat after he hit her in the parking lot. Was my first reaction to to restrain the guy? Hell no, I wanted him to hurt. Ended up serving 4 years in prison for it. My first "real" fight of my adult life came in the form of a guy trying to steal some shit off me, me trying to stop him and getting clocked. Do I try to use anything I'd learned in half a lifetime of dappling in karate or wrestling? Nope.. I flailed around like an idiot while trying to not get hit again.
So yeah this is long winded as hell but there are reason I stick by sparring requiring force involved to be effective. As Mike Tyson famously said "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."
The problem is your not using a double headed axe. KNIGHT SMASH!
Did you just watch Shad's video?
Ha! I also watched this video fro Shad right before this one! :D
@@robinrehlinghaus1944 yep he did
In my utmost humble opinion.
What I truly appreciate about the channels that discuss topics akin to these, is the insurmountable respect it teaches you for edged weapons/ and or weaponry in general.
When studying and observing the manuals and the depictions they contain, truly gives one the comprehension of the overall brutality melee/hand to hand combat contains. I myself an avid martial artist for over twenty years, as well with an background in security, comprehend and acknowledge the unpleasant fact far too well, how an situation can turn detrimentally for the worse in an heartbeat, and even minor punches/ falls/ strikes/ throws/ worse; blunt/ edged weapon impact( multiple opponents) can cause irreparable and irreversible damage in milliseconds, can’t even imagine being on the receiving end in an all out sword fight to the death, as well as the aftermath of such an incident.
Truly appreciate the detail and practical contemplation, as well as giving us all the opportunity to learn and grow, especially for us laymen who never trained in armed systems like HEMA, etc, truly fascinating indeed. :)
Sincere regards.
Fellow martial artist.
Tom Framnes.
Norway.
Even before I learned anything about HEMA the whole, "Knights just bash each other," commentary never made sense to me. There are many reasons for why such comments aren't valid, but basic logic would tell you that Knights wouldn't be elite combatants who are a part of their society due to their lineage and training as skilled warriors if they couldn't fight.
When it comes to my own experiences with HEMA so far (such as it is since I still train on my own given there are no clubs where or near where I live) I really enjoy the use of two-handed swords (especially longswords) and grappling techniques. To say that HEMA is just ineffective bashing is like saying Kendo is just people whacking each other with sword-esque pieces of gathered and bound together bamboo a time or two in that it would offend practitioners of Kendo and understandably so.
Such a statement about something like Kendo would be insulting regardless of intent because it generalizes and devalues the art as well as the skill and effort put into it by its practitioners. The same can be said for HEMA. To state that HEMA is little more than ineffective bashing is just patently false and historically incorrect on top of that.
Sometimes knights did bash each other; bashing can be an effective attack, especially in full armor. Knights valued strength very highly, & for good reason.
Same here! I've long wondered at the popular concept that only the Japanese and Chinese knew how to fight when the whole of Europe was constantly at war for centuries, surely it makes sense that any country that has a lot of fighting is going to develop ways to be good at it. I had come to the conclusion that we used to but this was lost when we invented guns, and then I found out it wasn't as lost as I'd thought but still existed in some form, and was slowly becoming a thing again.
That opinion also baffles me because I can’t help but wonder what they think knights trained for? Like if the training wasn’t important they wouldn’t spend this much time training them, it would also kind of be a waste of money. I mean if knights weren’t better fighters then the average joe then why invest this much money into their arms and armor?
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 You make a valid point, and perhaps in my statement I generalized a bit, but overall I think it's fair to say that Knights even when bashing did it with more than just reckless abandon. When bashing was done I imagine it was strategic in nature. You are right in your statement though. :)
It's always ridiculous when I hear that. What do they think knights did with their time? I'd assume the average knight would be a top athlete and a master combatant just based on how much training they did.
The guys in the comments you're responding to are talking about HEBA.
HEBA - hysterical european bludgeoning arts.
HEBA is to HEMA what Engrish is to English =D
It is the preffered style of Angry Marines from 40k
Historical euroBean Martial Arts
sword techiques dont work because or armor, thats why i sleep , eat, shit, and shower in full plate armor all the time, so i can be imortal 24/7
The trick is to poop well you shower.
"We Reinvented REAL Swordfighting, HEMA DEBUNKED!!!"
Let's apply that logic to driving and see what happens.
?
i taught myself how to drive, i brake on green and go on RED it pisses people off especially Green Lanterns lolz
@asdrubale bisanzio ... Are they ?
@asdrubale bisanzio They use to be optional lol, my grandfather would say he got "swindled" out of a hundreds of dollars to add "worthless" seat belts to his car that the kids didn't wear anyway because they weren't made for them.
Riding in the back of a pickup or side of a tractor wasn't odd, actually same grandfather was apparently dropped by his mother and ran over with the tractor by his father but luckily he was an infant and small enough to go between the track spaces.
@asdrubale bisanzio I was actually asking how does he know that.
Got a buddy who participates in something similar to a HEMA group in southern Illinois. Got to try on his full armor before and I can see why he had been working out so much. He had a full set with all the layers. Then again i’m out of shape, but am more of a pack mule.
I'm talking with my friend about starting up. Shits expensive lol but yeah my problem isn't gonna be the weight but my eye sight. Hopefully I can find a helmet that will give me enough space to see out of because bad eyesight with small field of vision is gonna be something.
@@righttohavebeararms.4300 I'd suggest going for a sallet with a full visor and gorget then, as that's one of the helmet types that has the most forgiving vision slits afaik.
@@SonsOfLorgar I'll have to look into it. Thanks
What do you mean Skall?? Armor Wasn't ubiquitous in the past?? Humans DIDN'T just have steel exoskeletons in the medieval times??! incomprehensible. All hail the nunchuck. Amen
@asdrubale bisanzio Damn, if that's the case my GM must be a hardass. 75% of my Polearm fighters kills during "rest ambushes" are from tying the various bandits, agressive wildlife and squirrels into pretzels, because my GM makes me run across camp to grab my halberd.
@@johannaldbrecht1594 Running to get your weapon is pretty hard-assing, yeah. He must really not like your fighter. Having to Don and Doff your armor though? That's just how armor goes. This is why Barbarians and Monks are the better fighters!
Signed, A Filthy Sorcerer
@asdrubale bisanzio 'this is my halberd this is my hose'... :)
Nunchucks are pretty lethal to ones opponents though
@@biggreenangryman1904 not if your opponent have literally any other weapon
I’ve always considered it to be like golf. Sure you can step up and just swing for the fences, which might get you a good result or it might not. Technique is what gives you consistency and finesse because not all situations require brute force.
Literally this is how it is with any sports, martial art, or learned and trained skill.
To say that HEMA wouldn't work because of armor is kinda like saying handguns are obsolete because of Kevlar.
I'd like to also add that as weapons and techniques improved, so did suits of armor. Which is why as you see two-handed swords, maces, polearms, etc. appear, suits of armor become thicker and cover more of the body. Later suits of armor also had "Voiders of plate" which would cover the articulation gaps like your elbows, knees, armpits, with solid articulating plates instead of maille or padding alone.
Well, that is also why BOTN has a rule that when you are on the ground you are considered dead (cause you would be in a very bad situation in a real battle), you can grapple or hit the opponent into submission which realistically could happen by using a poleaxe or any other hard hitting instrument on armor. Obviously they will not try to replicate stabbing weak spots and contorting limbs to dislocate them as this is just a game / sport not a REAL battle.
"Contorting limbs to dislocate them" is just submissions. Learn how to do the techniques safely and how/when to tap and tap will be fine. Thousands upon thousands of people do it everyday, and that isn't even a hyperbole
@@kaiceecrane3884 You have some good points but unfortunately in these tournaments it is not possible to tap out because the oponent does not really hear you well and do not see if you are tapping out or not, so it's just best practise not to do it.
The fuck, why does CZcams keep deleting my post
you don't need to strike like a rhino or a truck to break a nose. Just like underestimating the jab in boxing, thinking that every cut needs to be a huge, savage cleaving chop is a sign that the martial art part of HEMA is not understood. If every punch you throw in a fight is a haymaker intended to land a knockout, the things you'll accomplish are: getting tired faster, telegraphing your moves, compromise your momentum and leave openings. If light touches, even empty handed can be VERY effective its logical to assume that light touches with proper structure with a weapon are not only effective, but also dangerous.
Try a simple love tap with a sword against a man at arms or a knight, and then tell me how that goes. Armor is meant to make you near invulnerable, if you want to have any hope against it, you have to use grappling, wrestling, wrenching, and when you strike, you have to make it count. Because if you all you throw are lightweight cuts or thrusts, you're just gonna make your opponent pissed at you, nothing more. "Light touches" against armor are little more than a flick on the nose. I've done "full wack" sparring in plate armor, and "light touches" do absolutely jack shit. Even big "haymakers" do little. The real place you're gonna do some damage is in wrestling and wrenching, and using a dagger to reach the weak spots. Or if you have a tuck or estock, you can strike from afar. But buy in large, theres a reason all knights carried daggers with them.
@@backyardbiologist6468 Yeah, it is almost impossible to hit anyone wearing proper armor so that it makes difference at least in 1vs1 scenario. I wish Skallagrim and other youtubers would go try buhurt and know what they are speaking about.
@@Tuikkari exactly, in real armored combat, a sword slash is just a paper ball thrown at you. But a half swording thrust to the armpit, groin, or neck is something you have to worry about.
@@backyardbiologist6468 I don't have experience of halfswording, but I of course know what it means. In buhurt even maces are not used that often, because they are not very effective. Helmets are so good with modern steel that getting hit with mace is not a big deal. At least if it is 1h mace. Axes are best in buhurt, in my opinion. Buhurt match is usually 5vs5 and goal is to get 5vs4 advantage to start taking the opponent team down. Then in 2vs1 situation one tries to make gaps for the other to hit or bring one down by wrestling. With armor being so good, wrestling is still often the best option. In buhurt fighter is out when 3 parts of his body connect to the ground. Even then it is not about one round or one match. There can be 20 rounds in a day and if your heart rate is at max for several minutes 20 times a day, it comes to endurance or even more tactics because there are 3 days of competition and if team fights like that in the first day, it can't recover to the next day or day after that.
That's why out boxers tend to wreak havoc on sluggers isn't it.
Putting HEMA in one single category is like amassing all asian martial arts in Kung Fu. In modern times we would have a whole franchise of schools dedicated to every type of sword that was used, and then another school focusing on armored fighting with that type of sword
Technically anything, trained to a degree of absolute mastery, is gongfu.
The mid point of this video is something I have had to deal with a lot. There are a lot of people who think wearing armor means you can attack full force. I constantly used to stop match ups because trained "professionals" literally did not understand the concept of controlling their blows. It's crazy. x_x
Well, you need to have a gambeson under to lessen the energy of a blunt strike.... With it i'd say you can bash each other.. but only with some kind of under-armor cloth its going to hurt.
@@olgagaming5544 yeah. Should've specified that it was full armor. Even so, dropping a heavy object on top of someone's head will still completely wreck their neck and bitch slapping someone in the elbow with a longsword will still destroy that joint. Armor is not a catch all and it's frustrating to watch seasoned martial artists act like it is. -_-
In response to the comment you showed, "Fencing" just means sword fighting, and is not exclusive to sword fighting with blunted weapons, so trying to label HEMA as fencing instead of a martial art isn't mutually exclusive. Olympic fencing by all accounts is more sport than martial art, but actual historical soldiers or duelists fighting with sharp swords in combat is also fencing. That being said something like Ringen or dagger fighting isn't usually fencing(although it can be integrated into sword combat) but is a marital art and is also part of HEMA.
Skal : "let's talk" *readies a giant sword*
I'm glad you kept the outro, it was perfect and a nice light ending to the video
For those who argue about very little contact in HEMA. Here's a good point some may forget, by the time contact is made it may even be all over depending on the circumstances. Because you are fighting with a force multiplier (a blade). Even without it being sharp it will not take too much effort for you to put someone out of commission maybe even permanently depending on the severity of the injury). Maybe you should tell that to that guy and see what he responds with. Should be interesting.
I'm sure the person either doesn't practice contact sports or does so in a very undisciplined fashion, used to have a guy where I prácticed MMA that always over swung and would occasionally hurt their sparring partners because his philosophy was that any fight, even a spar, must be with everything you got as if your life was in the line.
A very destructive way if thinking IMHO.
The only thing that makes it a bad way of thinking is the sparring part that’s just dumb
Yet you get guys like Mike Tyson who would kill you on the street if your touched on of his pigeons.
Yeah, what that guy needed was to really get hurt one good time in a sparring session. Having to recover from a torn muscle or something would probably clue him in that hurting your sparring partners isn't making either partner better, because it will cost weeks if not months of downtime and recovery for the injured party.
sorry for the detour here, but can we all recognize that saying IMHO is a bit silly? maybe we need to just go with IMO and drop the “Humble” portion from the abbreviation. just always seemed a bit silly to me to try and declare ones own opinion as humble, as someone who truly was humble wouldn’t be going out of their way to point it out. it honestly seems rather conceited in fact
sorry, i’m sure nothing was intended by it; it is just a saying after all. it’s just a silly saying to me is all and has just become somewhat of pet peeve for me. feel free to ignore i guess, but i do hope people in general do just consider my point, pedantic as it is.
It is easy to proove him wrong though. Just put him in sparring with someone more experienced and tell him to go all out. Knock out the guy to show him why he should really not go full strength each sparring.
You show a clip of buhurt, which is a Slavic way to beat on your friends without killing them. And you win by knocking them off their feet. Their armor is a lot heavier than historic armor, the battles are much shorter and the weapons are heavier and blunted. So, a hit that would disable a historic set of armor bounces off the modern stuff.
Based on an account of Flodden Field 1513, parts of historical battles looked kind of like HMB. It states that armored Scottish pikers were tough enough to remain standing even when four or five English bills strike one of them at once. But the English did end up winning the day. Infantry fights could involve beating the other side into submission with polearms.
By "a lot heavier" what are your numbers ? Because I'm about to close around 30kg personnaly and might go even under after reworking some bits.
We indeed can suggest there is a higher chances the modern stuff can sustain more damages dues to better steel and more precise tempering process.
0:32 "...and I'm trying really hard to not go on a rant here... *cut* ...I'm admittedly biased..." He did go on a rant there and cut it out, didn't he?
I think the issue is a lot of people think hema is how people would fight on a battlefield. Which hema is nothing like.
I haven't done any sparring since the plauge came. I miss it so much
I know the video is old and you have other videos doing cutting tests, but just wanted to point that your cutting mechanics are lovely to see :)
Thanks for the help! All your input has helped me thus far.
Old skall screams and shakes skinny fist at clouds
I've been in a knife fight, as in, some guy who didn't like my clothes had a knife, and I had a knife, and I ran. I strongly recommend this technique.
Correct strategy.
@@patheddles4004 yup, as long as you are faster than the attacker, has better stamina, you don't have any friend or family around that needs protecting and luck out on not tripping up until the attacker has ceased chasing, then yes, running away is absolutely the nr1 easiest and best strategy.
And I'm not even sarcastic.
Any fight that can be avoided completely is a victory of life.
@@SonsOfLorgar Absolutely.
I knew a guy with a black belt in taekwondo, and his advice for a knife mugging was to slowly and carefully hand over your wallet.
@@patheddles4004 life over property, every single time.
"While you spend your time studying the blade, I... ran away."
Tactical retreat, baby!
It’s hilarious that you do this video right now which is literally perfect for me at the moment who is about to start a project trying to get a line in a action fantasy project I joined between realism and champion battles.
02:00 the #1 issue is that people don't know that HEMA exists.
I remember going through that phase when I was much younger. The concept of "Historical EUROPEAN MARTIAL ARTS" was silly because martial arts is exclusively to Asia. When I was signed up for my first class, I was doing it for my homeschooling weekly physical activity. At first when I was told I was signed up to do "sword fighting", I wondered if I was learning to use the Japanese Katana or Chinese Jian. When I walked in and saw European swords and my instructor in European period armor, I said, "Oh great, my grandmother signed me up for brute force strength training." I wanted to laugh when I was told this was a "martial art".
In fact, I asked the instructor, "Martial arts? As in, like, skilled combat fighting?"
"Yes."
"There's actually techniques?"
"Yes."
My life completely changed in so many ways after the first 2 sessions. And I've come to learn the greater population is likewise stuck in ignorance. But CZcams video channels like this one seemed to have helped alleviate a little of it.
Could you make a video on what manuscripts and basic armor a beginner should start with when trying to practice HEMA without access to a club? I've looked as much as I can and the only thing I can find similar to HEMA in my city is a lightsaber fighting dojo, which is obviously just a waste of time.
Have you had a look at HEMA Alliance? It's a website where clubs are listed.
Aside from that check out the subreddit r/wma
It's a subreddit dedicated to HEMA.
Maybe check out the youtube channel "superior HEMA". He founded his own club and learned by himself.
I heard that so many times. Swords dont work agenst armor. Dude you can gave the best 15 century armor. But if your back turned and you give me a big rock. Ya blunt force gets throught stuff and breaks bones. I'm sure many knights died cuz the peasant got lucky and got a good hit with a big stick or rock while the knight back was turned. Knights are not invincible. They are just harder to defeated. I mean you be amazed if someone's back was turned. You can take out anyone easily in reality
Yes? That's why you use macos or hammer's against them, not swords, a sword is pretty inefficient at transferring blunt impact
Swords work incredibly well against armor if you flip the sword around and use the crossguard as a hammer head (a very valid and popular technique).
@@Florkl or if you half sword with a proper grip and charge just right you can pierce the armor and possibly push the knight down and then just cut his throat.
@@Florklthen why not just use a bec?
You have a very nice channel! You cover interesting and intellectual subjects and obviously put a lot of effort into your videos. Thanks!
The thumbnail’s so good!
Ah yes, ''creeky door'', my favorite anime outro.
The fact that people usually leave hema lessons with bruises from blunt swords through protective gear can give the idea that without gear and with sharp swords it would be quite deadly.
People who say this have never been hit with feders
Creaking door ending was great. Thanks Skall.
Saber Fencer here! 🤺 Competitive fencing gets a lot of the same criticism that HEMA does, and I definitely relate to this video. I think you can definitely make an argument that Saber fencing is even farther removed from “actual combat” than HEMA, but I think you made really great points for both sports. Fencers still learn multiple combat forms in classical European style from Italian, French, German, and Polish experts and yes, a lot of fencing is not geared toward armored opponents. Why does that make it an invalid combat art? People often forget how uncommon armored opponents were in historical times; the majority of people you would see in a medieval or renaissance battlefield would be wearing a heavy cotton coat at BEST. Additionally, you look at the reasons historically that people are fighting and learning these combat arts in the first place, and they were often studied for duels and individual combat. In these scenarios, plate mail and armor was seen as very dishonorable and cowardly. Light stikes with weapons like rapiers and sabers can still cause extreme amounts of damage with even subtle movements due to the speed at which the blades travel in comparison to blunt weapons. The tip of an épée or foil can easily reach 120mph. Even a flexible thin blade rapier, can have very quick tip speeds. And at the end of the day, fencers and HEMA combatants are friendly good people and we don’t want to hurt our opponents in bouts. It’s all about the love of the sport, the love of the forms, and testing our ability. If a fencer or HEMA combat wanted to engage in a scarier looking battle to the death they could, but part of the skill of the art and the mastery of combat, is learning CONTROL.
As practitioner of Karate, and Tai Chi who has practiced with BO and Jo I absolutely concur with every point you made about the HEMA sparring and all it's problems and nuances. It is really difficult to spar with weapons safely and some deference has to be made to safety even at the cost of authenticity otherwise you quickly run out of sparring partners.
Love your show Skall!!
I think some people are severely underestimating why weapons are called force multiplier. Unless the weapon fighting is very choreographed it is very hard to make protective gear that would be in a price range readily available to your average practitioner
Anime *really* likes to play up the idea that knights where athropoid tanks with steel clubs rather than dexterous swordsmen because it fuels it's companion stereotype of samurai being more agile and quick-witted.
European sword discipline in general are only given credit for it's adroitness with respect to the rapier. Mostly.
There are other occasions where characters will wield European style swords in more or less the same fashion as they would treat a katana: blindingly fast, high cutting force, moving so quickly targets often have enough time to talk some final words of smack before collapsing in showers of gore, cool finishing moves etc. but this is often the exception.
Sometimes the reverse happens, an example being Ichigo's zanpakuto, but this was done to show his lack of experience and understanding of some of the nuances of being a soul reaper.
You *could* not control your power at all and walk around with a cartoonishly large sword that's taller than you are, but as a refined warrior, why would you want to?
Visually, the katana's minimalistic profile can sometimes lend itself to this perception, being wire-thin in comparison to some other wider blades with more ornate guards, but I'm getting off track.
I'm not trying to say Japanese media is more at fault for this than anyone else -- it's just something I've noticed.
An example of romanticisation and fascism in Japan
Everything you said here is really good stuff, except for Ichigo’s sword. It was huge because he COULDNT control his power.
Pietro Monte was both: a masterful all-around martial artist respected by Leonardo da Vinci who also really liked walloping horses & humans with a three-foot warhammer held in both hands from the saddle.
For a momente there in the end, I thought someone would barge in and challenge Skal to real sword combat xD
As always, excellent video!!!
Always appreciate your thoughtfulness and manners when you argue points. You do a credit to sword-nerds everywhere
The "not hitting hard enough" argument is so whack. Even gently pressing your finger into a sharp blade will make a large cut. A sword doesn't need to be swung like a baseball bat to cause damage. Even dropping it from a table height with the weight of the sword by itself can be enough to cut someone seriously if the edge hits them in an exposed area. You've shown in the video how big the cuts will be with proper technique and "limited" amounts of force. There's no denying it
Yeah. In media that has paper-plate that's easily defeated by swords, the people using those swords stab with the force of a locomotive or swing like they're hitting a 500 ft home run. Perhaps that's where the misconception of "THIS IS HOW TO BEAT ARMOR (with a sword): BRUTE FORCE!" comes from. No... the characters do that for visual clarity and more dramatic fight choreography!
"When people are fighting in armor, you don't see cuts! Because what's the point?"
heh
As much as I enjoy the detailed over-explanation, I think it's much simpler.
People associate sword fighting with fully (plate) armored knights - this is the classic depiction in films etc.. HEMA Body armour replicates that look and so it looks much more like armored combact that unarmored dueling. Which causes confusion when the rules then start assigning points for tippy-tap contact to areas such as hands.
Yes an unarmored hand in an unarmored duel would easily lose a finger to a sword blow, but the damage to someone wearing plate gauntlets would be much lower. Hence the scoring system doesn't align with the expectations of the observer - and the observer gets upset.
I would love to see tournaments/sparring with the score based on different sets of armor, like thrust to the face at maximum points but less points for cut to the head because of helmets.
Reminds me of people reaction when I tell them that I like rock music, they go like: "hooo you listen to that loud screaming music", you know that is just a small gender within rock right? is more diverse than that...
I... huh. I can't imagine that the people you're responding to in this video watched more than the single specific video under which they wrote the comments you are responding to. Otherwise... they wouldn't have needed this response, since you're just repeating things that you already talked about many times in many different videos and contexts.
I want a video of you just swinging that sword. The sound is intoxicating.
Video idea? Fav sword swishes/different sounds etc
I just had a discussion on a discord server with a person about medieval mma and that people who prever historical sparring, hema and technique in general over brute force.
"sounds like you are afraid to hurt yourself." "broken bones are a daily occurrence." "we fight like they did hundreds of years ago."
My answer... "I dont think so." Destroying your sword on plate armow is not medieval fighting, it's expansive and stupid. What I saw on CZcams showed little actual foot work, lots of kicking, little shield play.
I blame hollywood for all the misconceptions about everything western.
And eastern too . Samurais are super romanticized .
@@gerihuginn2143 that too but I cant say it now without someone callimg me racist or biggot and showing a video of a katana cutting fruits saying im wrong.
@@xzenitramx666 screw what other people call you. As long as you make a valid point then you shouldn't let people's narrow minded opinions limit what you sat
@@Alithel I know but I dont like to fight, that shiate get me stress sky high.
@@Alithel doesn't really work when thick headed samurai fanboy ignore every factual aspect of it, just because their favourite anime shows a tank being cut in half by a samurai
their tactic seems to be being so edgy so that they can cut even metal armor with pure bashing
Man you looking great today
*thumbnail*
Knight Hulk looks badass.
Uh do i spot a Landsknecht Emporium Messer here? Noice!
HEMA is similar to Shaolin kung fu with a similar level of practicality. People dislike it because modern representations are so terrible and unlike us HEMA nerds most people actually believe what they see in movies and video games.
That Fiore play, 3rd wide play, that cuts to the hand, then follows up with a thrust to the torso is the hardest one for myself and my group to figure out.
I love your videos! I rediscovered this channel and because of you, I'm going to start fencing! I know its not HEMA, but I do find fencing cool as well!
A lot of the issues that guy levies against HEMA can also be applied to Buhurt:
-Why would you ever use a blunt falchion in Buhurt when any real blunt weapon would be more effective?
-You can't stab in the gaps or in the face, so it's not "real fighting" either. Meanwhile, you can absolutely stab in HEMA.
-Rushing to hug and grapple your opponent for 2 minutes straight would be extremely dangerous on a real battlefield as it would expose you to stabbings of all kinds. Buhurt fighters can only do this thanks to the aforementioned rule.
Buhurt does replicate aspects of real fighting, but it's not as real as full-contact fans want to make it out to be. At the end of the day, people have to walk away from it alive and hopefully not end up inside an ambulance so steps are taken to make things safer for everyone.
However, I will say that the falchion thing is dumb. Some guys have two-handed axes and then you have those guys armed with their pathetic swords slapping uselessly while the rest of the team does the real work. Come on.
First! Love hearing this kind of stuff, glad to hear that medieval European warfare is finally getting more attention
In HEMA, do you have any fighting or tournament style that simulates or scores for *bypassing* armor, e.g. any of the techniques you mentioned, considering that those would also bypass your actual protective equipment with something that's probably not blunted or soft enough to be safe to hit skin (or whatever you have under the outer layer of armor)? E.g. something equivalent to the "find the gaps and put a dagger in them" or "put a stiletto through the light armor" strategies?
Battle of Nations disallows most thrusts and other techniques actually threatening to an armored foe. They encourage via rules the types of attacks armor is most protective against and as a result tends to be a showcase of the value of armor more then anything else.
Also on hand injuries I had a broken Sabre blade in a high school tournament go into my palm through my glove and serve a nerve and tendon. It was a very light wound that rendered me unable to close my fist until I had surgery. Sharp blades can do a lot of damage even sometimes when you think the blow looks like nothing. I'm glad you mentioned that Skal
We know from period sources that folks did wallop the hell out of each other with polearms. A single strike from a halberd might not incapacitate a person, as it usually doesn't in Battle of Nations, but neither is a single thrust likely to find a gap. According to Sir John Smythe, halberdiers combined blow at the head with thrust at the face. Powerful strikes do threaten a soldier in complete armor, but it helps to mix in thrusts as well.
What is this huge curved sword that skall always shows and seems to love? I wish i know more of it
The type of sword is a German kriegsmesser, which literally translates to "war knife". They were used in the 16th-17th century, in response to German governments restricting the ownership of swords among people ("sword" being defined as a long, double-edged blade; any other weapon that is single-edged, regardless of length, is legally classed as a knife.) These swords are mostly associated with musketeers and black powder marksmen, as well as being a sword for conscripted heavy infantry.
As for the specific model here, I can't remember it's name. But just search "Skallagrim kriegsmesser" and you'll find his dedicated videos on them. Hope this helps!
Helps a Lot, thanks friend
@@Anino_Makata Do you have any sort of source on that claim? I’ve heard people say it, but never say where it comes from.
@@idontwanttoputmyname403 he said a few things. What are you looking for a source for?
@@timconway2810 Pretty sure it was about the other guy mentioning sword restrictions in medieval Germany. We do have documents debunking that belief, records of people (bughers) being arrested and fined for NOT wearing swords in Munich for example.
That's a gorgeous kriegsmesser!
I just started fighting in full plate armour and it hard to get use to because of weight a lack of vision . I have still got full control and movement of my body but i still have to defend myself so learning techniques to attack and defend is necessary .
that creaky door was timed very nicely
The worst part about HEMA is all the rules. For example, in two handed combat the strike doesn't count unless both hands are still holding the weapon, which is hilarious and stupid.
This is my take from Viking reenactment fencing and the transitional style of duelling developed by Cornelius Saglado-Nacke (which in turn is taken from the reverse-engineered, archaeology based fighting style developed by Roland "Dimicator" Warzecha). In any form of "points scoring" combat you lose the respect for sharp weapons. Obviously, with longsword and S&B it differs since you don't have an 80+ cm shield to use as your primary weapon however you still should be following the principle that you should never put in an attack if your opponent can hit you. Following this principle, you stay out of range and fight a control bind before striking the opponent with a true time step and secondary attack: primarily the sturzhau or a thrust from the bind. In HEMA and other systems, I have seen many examples of "reflex fighting", trying to be quicker than your opponent with little regard for your own safety, and this has proven very effective for many warriors. However, when given a sharp to experiment with you can see their mind and body change as they realise they are now in actual danger. This leads to a control fight rather than a reflex one. This also removes swings and keeping the momentum in the weapon for, again, a gentle bind. Assuming, as we can never truly know if historical figures primarily fought for dominance of the centre rather than to immediately strike their opponent, then Hema and other systems that are predominantly reflex fighting are not simulations of a fight but, rather, a complicated game of tag. I mean this with no offence, trust me I love fighting, but the authenticity is, and will always be, questionable for any form of historical martial arts.
For those interested:
Dimicator: czcams.com/users/warzechas
Corne: czcams.com/channels/XALzYbu47rKwGYGmoPiW4A.html
Cornelius developed his style partly from Christoffer Cold and his use of shield binds:
czcams.com/channels/ls00b5JsulOWjo791aPvng.html
czcams.com/users/coldravnkilde
If anyone wants to see an example of reenactment syle duelling I shall be uploading some soon.
Stay safe :)
Skal rocks! Love your work Dude! Highly informative, smart, witty and entertaining. And at the same time rsspectful and non offensive which is quite a quality nowadays. Keep it up
I didn't even know HEMA received "critics" like that. Thank you for the enlightenment.
By the way, that ending was super adorbs. :3
Well, in my humble opinion reality would always gravity towards some more chaotic, "knight smesh" type of stuff at least a bit, in event of actual battle with many participants.
More precise technique, footwork, always tends to go get limited to simplest, working stuff.
I kinda suspect that all those more contrived, complicated throws and locks with swords from Fiore would really have trouble working against actual resisting opponent, moving unpredictably. Like Aikido.
Simpler, more 'bread and butter" wrestling would probably happen 99% of times. It doesn't mean such wrestling doesn't require technique or training of course, it's very difficult and technical stuff, hard to master, just looking at modern wrestlers. They're damn effective in combat too.
Plenty of high level boxers, especially at heavier weights, often do some stuff that's quite horrendous technique from the perspective of technical boxing.
But they've trained and sparred so much that they can do those theoretically shoddy techniques efficiently in a split of second and they work for them, for their body, their kinetic chaining etc.
And inborn, rather unattainable athleticism and movements would always be terribly important.
Yes, although muscle memory from lots of training does have a big impact. Considering that knights trained extensively in dueling techniques my guess is they wouldn't resort to brute force flailing on the battlefield either.
@@Skallagrim True of course, though modern MMA fighters, wrestlers, boxers, karatekas , fencers, even tennis players etc. are able to use quite minute techniques effectively because they're training 24/7 for specific one opponents, without worrying about much else. With modern understanding of muscle memory, regeneration, nutrition etc.
In "real life" there's just realistically to many things that can happen to have a response stored for them in muscle memory, unless someone's just athletic genius who sees/does one movement once and can repeat in easily after.
It's hard to say how many combatants on medieval battlefield were actually kinds of guys who could train and joust etc. all the time but I would suspect not that much?
Knights would have their estates or services to their lords if they were of poorer kind... Townfolk their craft, peasants their fields
Anyway, I'm not talking about brute force, just simple techniques being able to be executed with speed, balance, agility, and good deal of strength too. In heavy armor, realistically technique is always going to be even better if you supported with lots of brute force though.
But I do suspect that iron endurance and cardio would a real superpower in full armor fight, not brute force.
Endurance things is largely ignored in pop culture, and it's really probably most important thing.
Full contact sports (especially involving grappling) were always full of people in great shape being done after two minutes, if they weren't prepared to wrestle with same intensity as their opponent could, for example.
With 40 pounds of armor on, the importance of it would be only doubled. Your armor may be even completely proof against anything your opponent throws, if you're dead tired and can be just thrown to the ground, or grabbed easily, you're done, after all.
@@lscibor I doubt it takes a genius to know the value of repeating the same movement/drill and stress-testing it in sparring. It'd in fact be common sense, considering how probable being caught in battle was for certain social classes (Hanseatic Guidsmen, italian Guildsmen, Knights, Men-at-Arms)
Let’s be straight about it. Those who actually thinks you should spar as if your life is on the line. Really don’t know what sparing is. If your intention is to actually hurt or worse to kill your partner. Your a sick sadist and a person who really have no place in any martial arts nor is it practical by any means. Sparring is everything about enhancing your skill as a fighter not to win an actual fight.
I have a feeling you would NOT like Holmgang swordfighting then.
@@notgray88 that is correct.
@@notgray88 Are these the same people who rule most of sword fighting stuff out since it would result in more deaths while saying they are the most historic representation to ever exist?
@@VoresD They're the crazy dudes in the forest that fight with real swords and no protective gear. Basically modern duelling, except they have no professional training at all. The fight doesn't end until someone gets injured.
@@notgray88 Actually they flail their swords because they learned that using actual sword techniques results in people returning in coffins.
It's not really dueling more than "We want to wave these swords and have scars to prove we are something"
They are maximizing the chance of causing small injury which is rather easy to do with a cutting weapon and bare chest
"If you ever find yourself in real-life sword combat, then" ...door creaks to your left
Unsettling
9:46 was that a real sound the swing made or was it a sound effect? Either way just satisfying to hear once in a while c:
At our monthly cutting class a couple months ago my instructor had me do a half cut from coda lunga to porta de ferra as we often see in the Bolognese tradition. Even with my poor form due to inexperience, I still cut halfway through the mat
Skall swinging a sword with it making a sound is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen & heard
From many personal injuries, I will attest that even a blunted tippy tap can be pretty game ending when delivered to an unprotected hand. :)
Openned the skin very effectively when I screwed up. Done with a sharp blade it'd be an absolute horror show.
Btw: what gauntlet would you recomend? The version with fingers or the Mittens?