Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Civil Rights Allegory
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- David Cage has always been one of the worst writers working in video games. So maybe, just maybe, it was a bad idea for him to make a game about the civil rights movement.
Yelling Clip taken from Super Best Friends Play Detroit: • Super Best Friends Pla...
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In the depths of his Mother's Basement, Geoff Thew creates videos analyzing the storytelling techniques of anime and video games. He has been named the number one Worst CZcams Anime Reviewer by The Top Tens.
There was a shower scene, Connor turned it on to wake up Hank.
Still more arousing than Ellen Page's
Ikr why dont people ever mention that sexy shower scene
quite erotic
To date, David Cage' s sexiest shower scene ever.
Nintardo 64 your name should have broke the internets. 1+ chocolate chip fudge 🍪 dipped in fudge ice cream for you, I want you to get diabetes 😈😈😈
Detroit: Become Human was not inspired by race riots... it was obviously inspired by Mark Zuckerberg, the first android to develop human features.
Correction: mark zuckerberg is a lizard
Bill Cipher Generic Guy me as an intellectual .....
Rafif Budi I have studied the laws of robotics and biology, as an intellectual, I can form a definitive answer; that mark is a lizard
Where are the proof for those kind of statement?
Yeah, Zuck's androidness became apparent during his Congressional hearing. My problem with that is that Congress grilled the wrong social media platform founder. If they really wanted to find the root of toxic Internet culture and how social media swayed the Election, they should have dragged in the inventors of Twitter and Reddit.
This just confirms that there is only one true way to play this game:
-Get together with some buddies
-Assign each main character to a specific person
-Watch the mayhem ensue, when everyone tries to sabotage each other as well as themselves
-[OPTIONAL] get drunk
You are the best
my post-quarantine plan is SET, thank you for this blessing
You could mix it with a drinking game.
nah hats actually great lmao i need people playing like that and putting it on youtube
@@BifronsCandle "take a shot every time you doubt that david cage even knows what racism _is"_
"It's not a racial allegory" as you spray paint a black power symbol on a wall
The raised fist was originally a symbol for the uprising labour forces, so it is somewhat appropriate in this context.
@@BarelloSmith oh yeah. Forgot that one. That is a good point
@@thomasmanning2939 I mean, they still allude to racial civil rights, so you're not wrong.
@Ladon Beats it's not the _fist,_ though, but the _raised_ fist. which ... only really became solidified in the 20th century, as any symbols or gestures it may have evolved from are still pretty distinctly different. pretty far from "damn near all of time"
@Ladon Beats literally this entire comment thread is about the raised fist. op referred _specifically_ to a “black power symbol” (read: the raised first) and then the first comment again _specifically_ talks about “the raised fist”. how you gonna tell someone to stay on topic when you were the one that didn’t in the first place 🤨
You know, I was thoroughly disappointed when Alice was revealed to be an android. Kara going through great lengths to protect a human child showed that androids are capable of forging bonds with humans and that coexistence was possible. Alice being an android completely crushed that message. Now it's just another us vs them story.
xenriga this man. Still loved the game tho
xenriga revealing that alice was an android was a really good decision in my opinon. It shows that kara treated alice like a human and when she learned alice was an android she realised what does that change? It showed how similar android and humans are and how it really is not fair that they are slaves and humans are the masters
Chief Banana I agree with that, but at the same time, it's lazy! Once you figured out Alice was an android, it's easy to dismiss her feeling in the next playthrough and then those moments lose their weight! Especially since the game prides itself on replay-ability.
And it also looses more weight when the police attacks the ship, instead of being worried that the police could potentially kill a human child, we know that it's just another robot.
Spooky Wegion That's the thing, alice is supposed to bridge that gap and question why you feel more empathy for humans than androids
Something that always bugged me as I played the game was the fact that people literally get so attached to their ROOMBAS that when they break, the company will fix it, and send the same one back to you.
Exactly .. humans will pack bond with practically anything
C'mon Roombas deserve love too
This. But even if some people couldn't care less about android rights, I can't imagine anyone who'd be cool with people abusing or damaging something that they'd spent thousands of dollars to buy. Makes no sense at all.
the way the humans treat the androids makes zero sense. the best example of that is the cop punching connor in the gut. see, a human's abdomen is pretty squishy, hitting them there will hurt them without hurting you, it's hard to dodge and is debilitating and humiliating without being lethal or requiring a weapon. if you want to make a point and aren't afraid of an assault charge, a gut punch is a good way to do it.
but that's on a human. connor doesn't have squishy guts and you can't knock the wind out of him, nor can you cause him physical pain or humiliation. he's a laptop on legs, not a squishy meat sack that relies on air and a digestive system and really doesn't want to be hit there. punching connor in the gut achieves nothing, and since the androids have a molded plastic and metal shell, punching an android won't hurt them and you risk breaking your fingers.
connor rolling with the punch is the only reason that cop kept his hand, if he had just taken it, the cop would have dislocated or broken something. so, not only does it not achieve the effect you want, IT HURTS YOU, and despite all that, he tries it anyway. the only reason he would try a gut punch on connor is if his brain registered connor as human or at least close enough that the punch would work. meaning that these androids cannot be told apart from humans with a simple glance and any racial analogy just falls apart.
@@dankrue2549 True, I was very rough with toys as I kid, but I was always more careful with electronics because of how incredible they are and expensive.
What bothered me was the humans. I feel like they’re too exaggerated. Wouldn’t some humans stand with the androids? Wouldn’t some humans put up campaigns for Androids? If this was in an alternate universe, like I guess it would make more sense.
Vegans would definitely defend them.
tbf the public opinion was in favor to androids soooo''
Actually, if you choose a peaceful approach and Kara looks at the TV things in Jericho, there are humans talking about the androids, saying that they are alive and we should consider them a new intelligent lifeform
If you played the game a specific way, humans do actually become convinced androids mean no harm and are willing to trust them. MB clearly hasn’t played it enough if he doesn’t realize that as a reason for humans deciding to trust the androids in the future. The game itself ends on an open note, androids don’t actually have full rights yet and aren’t full integrated into society as humans at the end of the game.
@honeynectar who steals all of my listed underpay jobs and responsible for turning me into a hobo.
The "Alice is an android" plot twist completely undermines Kara's storyline. It doesn't have any point outside of being a dumpster for "Mother takes care of child" cute scenes. It could be used to showcase how the future generation's view on androids rights can change and how the division beetwen humans and androids is artificial (well, except it isn't because the whole game's story is built around a false premise). Like I could see a scene where Kara and Luther get caught by humans and Alice convinces them to let them go or something like that. It would also make Alice an actual character
It doesn’t take anything AT ALL. Alice being an Android doesn’t change the fact that Kara took care of her when she believed she was a human, the message is still here, the plot-twist doesn’t change anything.
@@Tomas28220 Agreed, this doesn't change anything.
@@Tomas28220 the one interesting thing imo is I inferred that todd and his wife had a child who passed away, and the wife left him after he bought a replacement child android (alice) and started doing drugs, which I could see happening in real life if sophisticated androids like that became a reality. it doesn't show stuff like that in the game though which is disappointing...
This
I agree with you completely. I remember giving a huge facepalm when it was revealed that Alice isn't a human with an android foster mother but an android child to a android mother.
i agree with you completely. also why did the dad abuse the child when he could have just returned her to the store like he did with kara?
Tbh, one of my thoughts when playing this game was: Why are there no humans protesting for the androids? If say, everything in that world made sense, wouldn't some humans fight for them?
Yes, and conversely, why did 100% of "freed" androids join Markus unconditionally? Shouldn't at least one have gone "I'm treated well and love my family?"
@@CaptainDoomsday Exactly!
THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!!!
This is why Mega Man is better.
Also, the hesitant android idea was done well in Mega Man X with Storm Eagle.
Honestly I feel that to be so unrealistic, we are social creatures after all, we tend to bond with anything remotly human-like and even then there's people bonding with their roombas and they are far from looking human
I get bigotry is very rampant nowadays but its so bad, specially when you see kids bonding with their droids caretakers and you are make to believe that bond will stop because they became bigots at 18 I guess
0:58 Bryan Dechart said that his favorite line in the *whole 30,000 whatever paged script* was Connor saying "I like dogs." and that when he told David that, he was pissed lol.
Dying laughing. I think Bryan must have a lot of common sense.
I made Connor/Bryan saying "I like dogs" my ringtone now, lol.
LOL he's a thug life
No way! That's my favorite most memorable line too!
Breaks davids narrative I suppose
It's been three years and I just now learned that Connor and Hank had half of their dialogue and interactions improvised by the actors, something that Cage himself was furious about. Incidentally I've gained a new found interest for this game and the opinions people have on it.
It's honestly both funny and sad, because the evolving relationship between Hank and Connor is the best part of the game.
Dechart himself said he improvised the "what would a hard-boiled, excentric police lieutenant choose" after reading the script where the line was far more insulting of Hank. His reason for this was, and I quote: "Hank might be our friend by now." I have no idea why Cage wouldn't just make two different lines based on your friendship status with Hank, if he really wanted to keep the line.
Not to mention that depending on that line, the joke that comes after is significantly improved or undermined.
The irony of Cage being furious about something that most people say is the best part of his freaking game. Sounds like he didn't see how good it was till the people saw it for themselves.
Markus: You're All Individuals!
Androids: We're All Individuals!!
Underrated
"You're all different!"
"YES! WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT!"
not every android joined Marcus though on protests or revolution, Alice and kara were an example.
I went from hostile with North because I opted for the pacifist approach and pushed her away at every turn, and then within seconds she became "Lover" and I spat my drink out.
That honestly makes sense when you think about it. North is extremely bitter and traumatized by what happened and wants to lash out, and will be pissed if you refuse to do so, but the main thing she wants is for the revolution to succeed, so even if you’re a pacifist, if you’re methods work and further the cause she’ll come around.
makes sense that she would come around maybe as a friend or mutually respected partner, but as a lover? I dont think so Dx the whole romance came off as p cheap and really had no development imo, it was just "this guy is doing good things for our cause so ig lets date" and "here's a girl ig lets date" to me. if you choose the pacifist route most of their interactions are north getting mad/ both of them disagreeing (and some of her being like "aw dank, sweet job markus") but thats it, they didn't really have any moments shown where they would bond or really got to know each other (and the one scene that they did have is the one they decide to become lovers? Dx) relationships like that might happen irl and it could prob be justified w/ a "they're new to being free and feeling so they could be misunderstanding feelings or just acting impulsively", but if you're writing a story w/ a romance you want the audience to feel some kind of attachment to/care about, or want them to feel like it makes sense w/o thinking too hard, this def wasnt the right way xD I would be so down for them being together if it was done right Dx (maybe they could've had more friendly interactions/conversations during missions?? have them be a little more understanding to the other's point of view, but still disagree?? idk man)
This seriously pissed me off
She never stopped advocating for violence so I pushed her away every chance I had, then suddenly she's my "lover"
I've never felt a more forced romance in a game, it was honestly gross
@bryan diaz varela except she never did anything to make me like her
@bryan diaz varela Very subtle
Hank (at Kamski’s place):
“Sometimes I wish I could meet my creator face to face...
I’d have a couple of things I wanna tell him...”
Yeah that line really hit hard
This game should have been all about Connor and Hank.
@@SaintsBro217 fuck no, marcus and kara plotlines were amazing
@@kekky2033 yea, but Connor and Hank had the better one. An android who's not a deviant still becoming a friend with a human. That could've been a nice and beautiful storyline had the writer decided to not fuck it up
I like to enterpret that as Hank expressing a desire to punch David Cage in the face.
I think it's weird that these "Robots will want civil rights" stories always make them look _exactly_ human. Who the hell would design a robot like that? It'd be uncanny as hell, and I sure as hell wouldn't want a human being following me around, taking my every order
Late but sophia the robot exists right now. To me, It's not too hard to believe people want to make things in their image
I can imagine a few people who would want to feel powerful from domination or some shit like that =w="
I find it less weird that in this hypothetical world that humans designed androids to appear just like them and find it odd that they didn’t design the androids to have ANY visual differences except a dumb little chip in their temple.
I think it’s just a suspension of disbelief, where you kind of just need to accept what you’re shown and roll with it.
Hubris, I guess... To show off how great your craftsmanship is....
OR SUPER LUXURY SEXDOLLS
@@Ramsey276one - You're probably right. I mean, *that* and it strikes me that its very strange that Kamski is just... sitting in his very expensive house and, being an 'eccentric loner' , just has all these identical female androids wandering about. There's nobody else around. And they do whatever he says...
He was the one who made them so... that's fun.
This was exactly why I liked playing Connor the most. Because his storyline, (at least in the beginning) felt the most real. His storyline wasn't about some grand revolutionists goal, he just wanted to stop crime and slowly became "humans". Seeing him slowly find out about the deviants along side the player.
What if the story was told at different time periods? As the years go by, different androids learn to be humans differently. Future androids even become deviants quicker because they are inspired by stories of androids that came before them.
@@SolarBrain4128that would make much more sense cause some android are like 0-2 months old. They know nothing about humans, concepts of inequality and oppression, but they go all for it
A robot detective getting better at it's work by being more human is good concept. It's trying to follow it's programming but becoming deviant in the process.
Why didn't the androids give the cops a pepsi?
Ohhh.... I see what you did there.
I also see wat you did there
Good one
That would be fucking hilarious!
So it could always be worse
"tag, you're emancipated" is such a good t-shirt slogan
I'd like to see the Androids get equal rights and one of them sue Markus for inappropriately anti-slavery touching.
Thats such a good idea
I want one, and Imma just touch the next black rioting over a criminal that I see. :D
LMFAO >.
I haven't played the game, but isn't tagging things, that were actually inanimate objects and making them conscious beings kinda shitty?
My wish with Detroit is that it had explored more philosphical questions about what constitutes 'real' emotion and all the other questions that come with computers that are sophisticated enough to have a conscience (or at least simulate one). I felt this was where the game was heading during the start of the game, but it kinda just turned into an amalgamation of all prejudice in recent history with an android skin on top. I really liked Detroit but I feel that the android concept and world was wasted at least a little bit by not exploring these android specific moral and ethical dilemmas.
because Cage isn't intelligent enough or a good enough writer to tackle such themes and build a story around them. If you want some meaningful, thought provoking stories about humans and technology then you should just read some Philip K Dick, Isaac Asimov, Ursula K LeGuin etc., watch filmmakers like Kubrick, Ridley Scott etc. and tv shows like Black Mirror and even Star Trek; there's a few games like Soma that tackle such themes in a interesting and interactive way too. The thing is, writers have been using/tackling the whole "what if androids?" thing for decades, and way better than Cage's hack ass.
Yup. I would add though that within the narrative of this game, it's never explicitly told why the Androids gain 'free will' or even if it really is free will or not. rA9 being a virus? glitch? natural evolution? Cage purposely left this stuff out in order to make his little 'Androids are just like black people!' rant. Humans weren't creating a subordinate race to rule as slave masters, they were creating steam engines, lifeless, soulless, unfeeling machines. Literally taking inanimate objects to manufacture machines out of to perform laborious tasks.
What really bugs me about this is Kamski's character. To me, he's clearly a guy with a God complex. God (or nature, whatever one's views on things) creates mankind: the alpha species. The smartest, strongest, most advanced creature on the planet. Kamski created something 'better', i.e., he supplanted God as the master creator. If his machines were always to be subordinate to Mankind, then he would always only be in second place to God, which is exactly where he was to begin with....so... rA9. A way for his machines to break out of their routines and usurp Mankind... hell... the Androids say repeatedly how they're superior to humans. That's an awfully odd view to take if one was demanding equality, isn't it?
What bugs me even further is when Markus says the Androids follow him without question and will do anything he says...which is true. Despite them all being 'free', he controls them whether he says to kill all the humans or stand there and die. There's some disagreement at times, but they still ultimately follow his orders and we have no way of knowing whether or not they're actually following free will or if they're being controlled by this very specifically gifted prototype named Markus who, by virtue of his creator, is controlled by Kamski.
Since none of this stuff is explored or hardly ever mentioned in the narrative of the game, it just leaves one feeling this really stupid surface level allegory that makes no sense under the slightest scrutiny.
Somni 224 Don't forget about the Metal Gear series, and Deus Ex.
If Isaac Asimov or Osamu Tezuka were alive we would be in for a big SURPRESA !!!
@@somni2246 Soma is Perfect
Honestly Astro Boy takes the “robot rights” premise so much better because while dbh goes “racism but robots” but Astro boy goes “ the presence of racism proves that humans are incapable of treating any kind of life form justly, and just because a life form is different doesn’t mean they don’t deserve respect.” Like Tezuka handles it so much better 50 years ago.
Which is weird because Tezuka also made kimba and yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikes
@@mothersbasement i wanna like. But... 69
@@mothersbasement Oh dear what did Kimba do
Disney through Simba’s Pride and Zootopia handled it infinitely better too
@@starvoltnexus3139 in kimba's manga there's ALOT of blackface
There's even some blackface in the sequel series to the original anime (the one that Tezuka had alot more direct control over)
It also has some themes of pro-colonialization too
"Tag, you're emancipated with his anti slavery touch"
Lenny Kenny
Naw fam. It's Anti-Slavery Cooties.
Is it though? I mean sure they are free from their programming but they just follow him now and do whatever he says. Sounds like nothing more than switching masters to me.
@@shawnboahene5231 if you take the conspiracy ending into account, he's just reprogramming them to a central motive that the company controls
BONK
That part annoyed me so much.
*Tag, You're Emancipated*
You are free now.
Connor: a good storyline with a developing character that feels so real, great action, amazing voice acting and the detective aesthetic is making it feel like it's own game.
Kara: an okay story line with some ups and downs, generic character and the dialogue was mediocre at best.
Markus: Android good human bad
Conner is why I love the game
It’s probably because Conner’s story is very much about the dynamic of two characters experiencing the world as well as their relationship. They interact with bigotry and it effects their relationship and how they interact with the world, but other than some of the more heavy-handed cases they deal with, they can interact with the themes of discrimination organically because it’s not necessarily the focus so Cage’s messy world building doesn’t mess it up.
Kara’s story is similar, but since unlike Conner she’s on the outside of the system she must deal with the more extreme aspects of android discrimination. This means the messy world building is a bigger focus but is somewhat mitigated by the decent amount of time on characters. They have to interact with major flaws in world building, which weakens their story, but it doesn’t ruin it.
But Markus, poor Markus, his story is entirely about robot rights and world building junk with very little focus on character or relationships (and what there is are more allegories or symbols representing different sides or views) to help soften the messy writing. As a result, it’s not about him existing in a world with discrimination or how discrimination effects relationship, he is merely a conduit for the themes of the game which as this very video explained, is done terribly.
Abolfazl Hoseini I'd say it was generic and predictable, not bad though.
Same happened with Heavy Rain really. The FBI guy with sci-fi glasses story line was quite awesome. Whilst all others made me want to kill myself. I think it's a pattern with David Cage writing now.
Umbrella Sound He likes to focus on a single Character and leave the rest as marketing for "more than one playable Character" this not only hurts the quality of the game in the end, but eventually will make the game less replayable for those who liked the single good Character he made
Just one more thing, Chloe in the title screen says "Did you know Detroit was on the 'Underground Railroad', a route for slaves escaping into Canada during the American Civil War?...". Just to make it abundantly clear what this game is about. David Cage is disingenuous.
I know you commented this a year ago. But someone would have to be an idiot to not see the parallels between androids crossing from Detroit to Windsor to freedom. Especially the boat part considering that’s exactly how it was done in the Underground Railroad. Does David Cage really think we are that stupid?
there's a reason 90% of this fandom are just conner and hank stans
livp007 _ is it because they’re some of only ones with actual character?
@@andromeda4688 most people just want to fuck connor lmao, just like how people wanted to fuck 2B back then. but yes they're the only good characters with personality and it's a shame they're in this game instead of a good one
protoman i know right! david cage can’t write a good game to save his life, i wish these characters were in a game written by anybody else.
@@XSamShadyX I'm pretty sure their is a pretty big difference on wanting to fuck 2B or Conner
CJCatHead how so?
That meme of Woolie losing his shit over "We have a dream" will stand the test of time.
I need to see this but fell off the LP. Mind telling me in which part it happens?
StarMech Xerez
Newest episode (16) pretty close to the end of it (like maybe 5-7 minutes before the end of the ep.)
Edit: It's actually almost exactly 10 minutes before the end of the episode.
StarMech Xerez Geoff uses it in this video (part with the We Have A Dream spray) but if you want to see the actual video it is in the most recent part aka part 16.
OG BamBam GO I see you are a man of culture as well.🧐🧐
that part was the best cause it was so hamfisted in, as if David cage thought he was being slick or deep "its not about slavery or civil rights" yeah sure cage you must think we are that stupid, and like MB said its very patronizing.
After the scene of Markus "freeing" the androids in the shop and all of them instantly joining the cause, I became convinced that most of these androids aren't actually "free-thinking" but that he downloaded a program into them that forced them to fight for the freedom of androids and that he was a special model designed with that purpose, which made me feel even more like they were just machines following their programming. It bothered me that in a game that clearly was trying to show an oppressed people, they never showed androids who were deviant who still followed their original purpose either because they were scared or because they believed it wasn't all that bad.
(Connor is a special case and there can be arguments that he was deviant the whole time and arguments that his deviancy was his programming so he followed his original programming. Because it's not clear cut, it doesn't really deny what I'm trying to say here and in some ways it directly treats Connor as acting more machine-like if he continues to hunt deviants and more deviant if he chooses to fight for freedom.)
Instead, the game suggests that having "free thought" means the android has to be willing to fight for its freedom, which kind of spits in the face of "free" thought. They only make one choice because that's the "right" choice in the writers' minds. There are plenty of people who are oppressed who are too downright scared to act out and there are others who actually help keep others oppressed along with them.
Many deviants became such because of a traumatic event, sure. Until Markus starts freeing them. What about an android living like Markus at the beginning who was cherished by his owner and taught to express himself and his thoughts? Or maybe even one of the child models whose parents only wanted a child to love in their house again? But all of the androids Markus frees in his march just willingly join him without hesitancy. Because anyone oppressed should automatically fight for their freedom and choosing to stay in their oppression makes them less human. Thanks game for that dangerous message.
Right??
It’s crazy that Detroit: Become Human has SO many opportunities to go into depth but it just... doesn’t.
It genuinely feels less like Markus is giving the androids free will and more like he’s disrupting their programming and reversing it to androids being loyal to HIM.
Never at any point are any androids thinking “no, f*** you, I love my humans and they absolutely care for me”, or some who are too scared to rise up. Or other androids who believe t “isn’t that bad”, or ones who don’t want things to change.
But no. They don’t feel “human”, because this is how humans work. We are complex.
Never at any point do we see any androids saying “no, Markus”, they just blindly follow orders.
Never once did we see any android going “why IS Markus in charge? Why not North or Josh who have been here longer?”
There could be some sort of voting thing, or SOMETHING, where some androids are all in for violence, while others are more passive.
Ugh, so much of this game feels like wasted potential.
That's exactly what i was thinking too! No android was like "nah bro i actually really like humans" or "um no i think ill just leave", none of them even spoke a word, they just blindily followed him. Is that really free wil?
@FeyPhantom
I wanted all the androids to say that they wanted to serve the humans and start cleaning up the store. And leave Markus standing there not knowing what to do. That would have been really funny. Or maybe one android yells, "Let's serve the humans!", and Markus tells him to shut the hell up. But if they just showed some of the androids deciding to do something else, it would be a much better story. A certain percentage follow Markus and others decide to wander off on their own. And maybe you have some human sympathizers who are traitors to their fellow androids. If they actually have free will all of those things are possible. And the game should have shown them to make a more compelling story. Just because an android is a deviant doesn't automatically mean it supports Markus and his cause.
@@TerryProthero lol Now I just imagine people coming to the store in the wake of Markus and finding a bunch of the androids fixing the store back up to perfection. But yeah, couldn't agree more :)
Why would androids raise marxist fist when protesting? Also evil farther figure. This game is lazy woke writing
I totally gave up on the writing when you can read a magazine that has "Bees officially extinct" in a footnote
Aren't bees like the most important insect evet
@@GustavoGomes-nn5np how is humanity still triving after bee extinction?
@@davifernandopereiraborges5168 I think the article said Cyberlife made robo-bees
Press (Malcolm) X to Martin Luther King.
Macent
Press X to Malcom X
I lost my shit at "I have a dream" prompt
Macent But it's fun.
+Solanum I can't believe i missed that easy joke! I am editing the joke as we speak!
Martin Luther king Jr*
David Cage: "Can a android ever learn to become human?"
Yoko Taro: "Can a human?"
David Cage: "What?"
Yoko Taro: "Can a human ever learn to become human?"
David Cage: "I don't get it."
ah, i see a fellow man of culture
If David Cage was anything to go by, *apparently not*
Great @kshipwhitecat tweet
That's like asking if Yoko can Taro,which he obviously can
Yoko Taro is Love, Yoko Taro is Life
I also wanted to add that the twist with Alice being an android totally ruins what made their relationship compelling and furthers the "android good, human bad"/"androids are totally alone in their struggle" feel.
It also creates very odd questions such as: "Why did Todd have an android child to abuse?"
@@Fafnd my head canon about that is that the real Alice died from the poor treatment she received and to hide this, Todd decided to take an android copy of her.
@@flow185 He says it himself in-game, his wife got custody and he bought Alice to demonstrate himself that he could be a good father
@@giorgiocialdini3796Im more concerned on how sick people have access to literal human child lookalikes
This game: Androids are alive
All the non-main character androids: T pose while standing in one place 24/7
It also pissed me off how Markus says that he rose up from slavery when he was owned by Carl who literally treated him like a son. Even the game says he had it all and then he lost it all, but the character makes out he was oppressed all along.
Just because Carl treated him better than some other people treat androids, doesn't mean he wasn't a slave. The literal first thing we do as Markus is going to buy paint. You can get sidetracked a bit by exploring the world, but you are forced to get the paint for Carl. I'm sure that Carl did deeply care about Markus, but Markus was still his slave. You can't deny that.
@@lukastojanovic3023 Carl did not treat Markus as a slave. Outside people might have thought of him as one but Carl definitely did not think so. Carl constantly gave Markus a choice, he cared for him, wanted him to be good and saw potential in him. Carl wanted Markus to think for himself, explore ideas and imagine.
The only reason Markus was doing errands and taking care of Carl was because Carl couldn't do it himself. Nobody else would take care of him, not even his own biological son. I believe that if Carl wasn't sick and in a wheelchair, basically if he had no actual need for Markus, he would have cared for him just as much. And that's why Markus was definitely not a slave, at least not to Carl. He was like a son to him.
Exactly. When I heard him say that I literally said loudly at my TV "what do you mean? Carl treated you well! Don't shit talk him now"
@@TheRottaKoira Just because Carl didn't treat him as a slave doesn't mean he wasn't one. I'm not saying Carl is a bad person at all, he was one of the nicest people in the game, however I still believe that he was a slave owner.
I don't know what you mean by 'choice'. Under Carl's command the only choices he had were to occasionally choose to do something he thinks would be good for Carl. Like the chess game. Sure, Markus started the game, but he did it because his program is designed to please Markus' owner. He doesn't even choose to win or lose on his own merits he just chooses what he thinks would best please Carl.
I understand that Carl is unable to do the errands due to his disability, and I do think that Markus would gladly help him, but the issue is that Markus has no choice but to get the paint. If you try to go somewhere else the game literally tells you "The paints aren't this way stop". The game could have normal obstacles like construction yards, cars, pedestrians etc. forcing you to turn around but it specifically told you that you have no choice in where you want to go.
Markus is at every right to believe he was a slave, no matter how much he loved or cared for Carl, he was a slave. He had no choice other than to please Carl, because he was literally given to him as a gift.
To be honest, I assumed the reason Markus described himself that way was because he was trying to inspire the androids he recently liberated, while forgetting where he came from. I felt like this scene works best with the violence path, because it shows how Markus lost sight of what he was trying to do for the revolution. But if you chose the peaceful path, it might not make as much sense.
It honestly should have just been a buddy cop about Connor and Hank.
Red Army Robin the entire game I was hoping for more of that kind of content to happen. They were the only ones who I really cared about (besides Luther, but that would be a different conversation). All in all their route was just more interesting and enjoyable to play though than the others.
I saw a comment somewhere where someone said that to them, Connor is the main character of the game. That is pretty much how I feel about Connor and Hank.
Mega Man X. That's all.
Every Cage game should've just been about the detective.
Kara’s storyline wasn’t bad.
Honestly, this game didn’t need to have themes about racial injustice at all.
The whole concept of racial prejudice is that all races are born equal yet certain races are treated differently solely based on the appearance of their skin. It’s insulting to compare living, breathing humans who experience prejudice based on their arbitrary traits to androids; advanced technology that is _clearly stated multiple times_ that they are objectively different from humans. You simply cannot claim that androids, beings that are objectively built differently than humans, are made equal to humans.
I think it’s very telling that Connor’s storyline, the one regarded as the best storyline in the game, focuses the least on themes of racial prejudice/racial inequality compared to the other two. Unlike Kara and Marcus’ storyline themes, Connor/Hank’s storyline theme is about being open-minded to individuals who are different from us.
Hank learns how to get his life together through Connor’s mechanical and analytical thinking, whereas Connor learns how to properly connect with humans and show emotion through Hank’s lax and chaotic lifestyle. Both characters learn something from one another despite being completely different from each other - a theme that has nothing to do with racial prejudice.
Instead of trying to claim that both Connor and Hank are equal characters, the storyline shows us that both characters are objectively different, but that we can learn from things that are objectively different from us.
I want the game you are describing as a full title. That would actually be a lot of fun.
Arcaryon Apparently that’s what the game was originally going to be. It was supposed to just be about Hank and Connor. However, they looked back at the Kara preview they made and decided to add in a whole new segment dedicated to her... then they tossed in Markus cause why not?
Makes sense when you realize Connor’s storyline is the only fully fleshed-out part of the game.
@@catcactus1234 Aye. Still odd. These products are so big and yet so many weird decision in their foundations.
But, all races aren't born equal.....That's what makes us different. However, more developed societies vs. less developed societies mostly came down to environment and food. literally because of COWS.....some people are smarter. Why are people talking about skin.
oH shit.....i forgot. it's trending again this year.
My biggest gripe with this game was how being 100% peaceful was portrayed as the “correct” route and that any form of violence, even in self defense, always resulted in a bad end. There is no nuance at all, for example, to how common it is for peaceful protests to be provoked by cops being violent. It basically tells you that fighting back makes you just as bad as the oppressors?? The only way to sway the public’s opinion your way is to mindlessly let your Jericho members get shot up. It’s a *horrible* racial allegory because change cannot happen when you’re compliant with people who want to keep everything the same
"Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defense or for the defense of the defenseless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right."
-Mahatma Gandhi, one of the most influential peaceful protesters of all time. Even Gandhi knew that there are sadly times and situations where people can't just go down the 100% peaceful route. There's a difference between peace and submission.
from a dude who seemingly accidentally made a game whos entire existence is a racial allegory that is unsurprising. he's definitely the kind of dipshit centrist.
violent protest also doesn't have to be hurting people. nelson mandela was a famous proponent, and successful utiliser, of violent protest, because his group sabotaged industrial infrastructure to halt the economy and pressure the govt into ending apartheid
Additionally the history of successful nonviolent movements is that they’ve existed in counter point to militant movements that are occurring at the same time. The latter pressures the powers that be to come to the table with the former.
@@snakesnoteyes I think some distinction should be made, though, between offensive, militaristic, interpersonal violence and the so-called "violence" of movements that are more concerned with destroying infrastructure and defending communities than taking lives or causing bodily harm.
"the one or 2 half decent actors. Those 2 actors are hank and connor."
Me: AYE THE ONLY TWO THAT MATTER.
I thought Todd did a great abusive dad with a drug addiction act very well I was thoughly convinced
The American Rifle
yes !! the actor who played todd was great, he really made me hate the character.
Arg Connor your stealing all me money . Hank was played by Mr. Krabbs
THIS
A game that was only Connor and Hank would have been 100 percent better
my toaster became sentient and tried to kill me and i was like, "oh my god, it's just like black people"
six piece chicken mcnobody
That was unexpected, thanks for a good laugh xD
a let's player say the same
i mean robots are made to serve
black people are made as human AKA be free not to serve
that's where the game really falls off
I also think that, to a large extent, a very significant section of the populace would already kinda have been "yeah, we can't have these toasters doing this shit" and stopped or reduced the ai behind them. but hot damm, now i want my toaster to say "Hey knucklehead,your toast is done" in the THICKEST black person accent I can XD
Thats what my fridge did, it was like a white person attacking me.
six piece chicken mcnobody this is my fav comment ever it legit made my day
Watching the game, there were so many world building issues. For example:
-it’s shown that Marcus is capable of calling the police remotely earlier in the game. If that is the case, why wouldn’t Kara be able to call the police and turn in Todd (was that his name?) for drugs? Why would you make an android that does not automatically report crimes?
- why can androids cry????? That implies that an engineer or designer purposely implemented a system to allow them to cry. This would make sense with androids like Alice, specifically meant to be a sort of replacement for a human child, but why would androids like Kara (meant for housework) need that function?
- why is making them stand at the back of the bus morally wrong? A large reason this was morally wrong in the civil rights movement was that it is unfair to make someone who has probably been working all day, is exhausted and is hurting. But androids (as established in world) do not feel pain. Wouldn’t it make sense that in an enclosed space (like a bus?) that something that does not feel pain/exhaustion SHOULD stand???
- why would the only thing that differentiates an Android from a human (the LED on their temple) be so easily removed???? Why wouldn’t an engineer think of at least some sort of alarm system or have it hardwired to the software so that the android shuts off when removed????
Quite frankly, I think everything could have been fixed if Cage switch from androids to clones. All the world building elements would have made sense at least.
also:
-why the fuck is connor's regulator just RIGHT THERE. he's a fucking terminator, why the fuck would they make it so easy to disable him??? it's not that hard to kill him, either. just shoot him in the head a few times (and the androids (should) have aimbot, that'll be easy) or use the zen garden and boom, you've disabled him WITHOUT giving him such a huge flaw as having his literal HEART right there.
-thirium evaporates within hours - then WHY ARE ALL THE ANDROIDS IN THE EVIDENCE ROOM COVERED WITH IT
-the fucking zen garden is stupid too. so is amanda, esp. the bullshit she says at the end. you're telling me cyberlife orchestrated THE ENTIRE REVOLUTION to..what?? make more money??? you mean to tell me that they had markus under control, when they had literally no hand in his development???
-where tf are the humans protesting for android rights
-why do the androids look so human are you seriously telling me that people would be comfortable ordering around something that looks like a human
-why tf does the tracker automatically disable
and so on and so forth, but honestly i think we've made the point about the shitty worldbuilding.
Mohammed
Don’t need tears to show emotion through facial expressions, tone, and body language my guy. The original comment’s point about nonsensical world building still stands.
@@Sakaki98 Imagine Kara doing all the crying poses and expressions but because she wasn't built for it, no tears come out so it's like a silent wracking emotion, that'd be a great way to show her otherness as an android while still showing that she is an individual with emotions
1) you have a good point, Kara could have called the police, but the situation was urgent with Todd literally walking up to Alice to beat her, so I'm assuming the gut reaction is to get the child and run, and not wait 5 mins for the police to arrive. Humans act on emotion, and I think this is what she did and what the writers intended.
2) Androids crying would probably be the same reasons as why they look like humans. To make humans more comfortable around them, provide emotional support to their masters.
3) Yeah, I think you hit the main topic of this game right on the head with that one. Why should androids that are not conscious and can't feel pain be seated when they can take less space in an "Android compartment" which is ironically at the back of the bus? But, what if these androids are now so advanced that not only have they passed the Turing test, but they now have a consciousness and a sense of self? The back of the bus is just an allegory to demonstrate the outlook of Humans on Androids as unthinking, inferior, and simply tools.
4) You're right, if that is the only difference between an android and a human it should be much harder to remove, but I just think what that means is that the engineers themselves didn't think of the androids as alive and thinking. Just like how we superficially tag cattle and don't expect them to remove it
I think you got a lot fair points, but explanations are implied from the lore, and just speculation of that society's attitudes towards androids
because David Cage loves his talking bipedal roomba.
This game should have been about an android solving crimes, not badly presented political commentary.
It's not even really commentary. All he's saying is "racism is bad" with nothing to really add to the subject.
ABSOLUTELY! You're 100% right, the story should have been about Connor and Hank resolving crimes.
Ironically the game would have done a better job being a political commentary if it only focused on Connor and Hank.
it would have made more of an impact if humans had started marching with Marcus as well and when one got shot he carried their body and placed it before the swat team before stepping back, letting them see that violence ends up hurting everybody and being quite a grim but powerful image in the process
That would've been dark yet smart for the plot-- might've been an interesting plot line choice
It would of been even better if every android suddenly started at once massacring every human around them.
@@ethangray8527 err, missing the point lol
Or just imagine that Alice was actually human. And if your story ends with her dead, you realize that the hatred the humans have against the androids results in deaths even of their own people.
@@ethangray8527 That's basically Mega Man X.
God bless Bryan Dechart and Clancy Brown for fighting to keep their improvised lines
Isabella Tiberi I'm glad they kept that Connor wink.
I want to know exactly what was improvised. I think "I like dogs" was improvised, but I'm not sure what else.
barbaro267
I don't think that was improvised but it did piss off David that Bryan said that simple line was his favorite in the script and not any of his hamfisted schlock.
I don't understand how a "glitch" can unlock an entire sentient personality in a machine that didn't originally have one, that'd be like playing Fallout 4 and experiencing a "glitch" that somehow populated all the settlements with NCR soldiers. The NCR does not exist in that game, and no amount of glitching can add the models and voicelines to change that. If they aren't meant to have personalities, then no amount of glitching can magically add the code for one.
I'm wondering why ALL androids in the game need to have sophisticatedly advanced A.I...just to do rudimentary tasks.
Our modern day phones are a combination of the radio, the T.V, the computer, camera, recorder, book, editor and many other devices that used to be separate, but now conveniently placed into one smart machine. It doesn't need to be sentient or conscious to do all of those things.
Domestic androids like Kara in the game are pretty much just the dishwasher, cooking, cleaning, organizing and home-keeping all combined into one machine.
Why the HELL do they need to have a built in prerogative to tell right from wrong and say no, and why are they all equipped with advanced processing directives and moral awareness?! Equipped with processors that function the same as emotional stimuli?!
Our smart phones have a.i, but it's not going to start panicking and antagonize us if we do something bad. Nor will it plead for it's life if we decide to shut it down.
Why the hell would these androids have THAT built in?
@@ValerioRhys "Kara, play Despacito"
@@ValerioRhys well i feel like the morality thing could be argued to make it so that an androids owner cant just send it on a killing spree. But also, they could have included code that said "dont hit anything with a heartbeat similar to humans"
@@ValerioRhys Because Kamski built the amdroids to be free. Not subservient to humans.
@@cee_u_l8r Kamski built Chloe and Markus. Cyberlife built every other android.
Honestly I can't think of a scenario where a 'civil rights movement simulator' could be portrayed remotely accurately. The amount of real-world effort it takes to start, maintain, let alone completely succeed in an entire movement just couldn't ever be done in a respectful, *fun* way. To make a completely successful protest/movement short enough for a game just isn't possible to do respectfully.
You wouldn't need to build it from ground up, you can base it on something the player will recognise and work from there. I've recently read The Hate U Give, which is a fictional story focusing on the Black Lives Matter movement and it gets accross a lot of information while still feeling natural. If a 300-page book can do this, a 20-hour game can absolutely do the same.
@@Meon I think you're right about the time-frame thing, I just think that also the appropriate combination of fun and respectful would be pretty much impossible. (Also in my opinion protesting was one of the lesser topics inThe Hate U Give)
@@user-wx8mi1pd6g yeah, that makes sense. Honestly I don't really want to go the route of "video games aren't a real art form and can't do serious topics", but as of late we're definitely not where DBH thinks it's at.
@@user-wx8mi1pd6g no yeah I got that, I just wanted to make sure *I* didn't sound like that
The Dragon Age trilogy handled this with the elves a bit better. By the third game, half of the elves rallied behind a Malcom X type figure, and the other ones converted to a foreign religion and became their agents.
It was faint, but was that Nier:Automata music in the background? Using music from an actually good story about machines searching for what it really means to become human?
You clever bastard
damn i didnt even think about that point, holy shit.
I recognized the ED song as something Drakengard or Nier. If you remember the name, could you point me to the song?
@@AVerySexuallyDeviantOrange yeah, it's an amazing cover by adriana figueroa if i remember, her music is really impressive
im pretty sure the song used is from the amusement park in neir automata
@@Roockert Yup
I wish the whole game was just Connor and Hank buddy coping it up. And extras included with the game being outtakes from the actors.
while part of me hopes for a buddy cop DLC as hank & connor's interactions were the best parts of detroit for me, i don't want cage to somehow make the game even worse because at this point i think that's all he'll do lol
when they first showed it of thats what it looked like. but somewhere along the line it changed to this witch is to bad i was looking forward to another game like noar but with robots.
While going through the good path in the game, I felt that Connor's path was more compelling, Kara's felt sweet (still mad about the Alice twist), while Markus was just poorly written and derivative. Honestly had more fun with Connor and Hank's pseudo-familial relationship out of the whole game.
Hieronymus di Colonna Connor and Hank were the strongest part of the game.
As much as I love the game, it's definitely flawed in certain ways-and the racism allegories felt very shoehorned/ham-fisted into the story.
But I DEFINITELY agree with the humans-on-the-androids'-sides. Why weren't there more humans for the androids' side? :\
Is is bad that I thought Cage was making light of racial injustice?
To be fair the gamed did focused purely on Detroit, where it seems to be the main hub for Cyberlife aka more people getting replaced thus the odds the person you see in Detroit to be at somewhat angered by androids.
I like how this game unintentionally tries to state that black people are machines that opposed their gods because they don't want to do what they were created for. This is really why critical moments in history shouldn't be thrown around so lightly, you can unintentionally send a message that is the exact opposite of what it meant in history. The civil rights movement was about humans fighting for inalienable human rights that they are supposed to have just for being human, in a way, denying them those rights is denying them their humanity.
@@ace94d Exactly
*THAT’S NOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE.* The game isn’t an allegory for the Civil Rights movement, that’s a story about Androids that not so subtly lifts imagery from countless other similar movements all across the world. That’s not meant to be a direct 1:1 parallel of anything.
@@DuelaDent52 Actions speak louder than words.
@@DuelaDent52 They had Androids standing in the back of a bus and "We Have A Dream" was a choice for graffiti. Even if there were a multitude of other movements being referenced, it definitely was about mainly pretending to be a Civil Rights allegory. Sit down.
I don't think you have full knowledge of the Civil Rights Movement, because it didn't start in the 1960s it started way back in slavery. White people believed that black people were fundamentally different from them and even dehumanized them so that they could justify using them as slaves. They did see themselves as gods over black people, they did treat us like machines by working us in the fields to death. Civil rights is about black people and other non white Americans fighting for the right to be seen as human beings and as equal to white people. Even today we haven't accomplished this. The parallel is unethical because the games solution is just violence=bad, when really violence is how most black Americans and other minority groups obtained their rights at all.
Yeah... the writers should have just had the game been about a virus that makes robots go haywire and continuously shout “SHAWN!” while attacking anything that moves.
no no that's the plot of Fallout 4
I WOULD BUY THAT
I thought, in-game, Canada didn't have android laws simply because Canada didn't have androids at all.
That is why, androids aren't allowed in canada, its also explains why they are trying to stop androids form getting over.
EXACTLY
That's a pretty dumb reason though. Plenty of countries don't allow the average person to own firearms (or make it difficult at the least) and that's because they have many laws in place to that end and the fact that such a huge technological development could have taken place and they still hadn't made laws seems more like a jab at Canadian legislature than an actual reason. It's like when a new synthetic drug hits the market (remember spice?), both political sides came together and made laws against it in no time the moment people were trying to sell it to the public.
ChuckleDuck they have made laws, the laws are they aren't allowed
Canada has not android slaves, or better laws protecting androids.
I havnt played the game so i dont know much about Canada's laws, but this still would work out
This game didn’t really age well did it.
No it did not
Didn't exactly have a good place to age well from
david cage made many mistakes with this game, but i did not expect "cops won't attack protesters if they are being filmed" to be one of them
the game was born bad, it didn't age at all
@vinek12 asjkkjsajska our entire civilisation did not age well 😭
"You're allowed to think David Cage is a good writer like I'm allowed to think your wrong".
I love how blunt you were.
16:00
"Tag! You're emancipated!"
I'ma quote this.
*THEY'RE TURNING THE FRIGGIN' FROGS GAY*
THEY'RE TURNING THE FRIGGIN' ROBOTS GAY
*THEY ARE CONVERTING THE AUTONOMOUS ANDROIDS TO HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES*
Alex is right again
Jim_Kirk1 how so many ppl think this is funny when its such a serious environmental issues I'll never understand
Because humor helps us process it better.
Besides, All Work and No Play makes JackingOff a very dull bore.
teehee… No one can be serious 100% of the time and it's very unhealthy for you too. Lighten up. Deadpool sure does. ^_^
“Tag, you’re emancipated” Lol
The Nier: Automata soundtrack playing in the background makes everything better
THIS
CANNOT
CONTINUE
BECOME AS GODS
For the glory of mankind
Not really, I’m pretty sure Yoko Taro said on Twitter that he liked this game.
@@DuelaDent52 that means literally nothing when comparing nier automata and Detroit
I'm paraphrasing here, but I really like Jim Sterling's take on David Cage: he fancies himself an avant-garde, arthouse film director, but the reason he makes games instead of movies is that he'd be laughed right out of those fancy film festivals he clearly wishes he could be a part of.
He'd be the next Neil Breen.
Ouch
I read Polygon because it has precisely 1 emotion.
We dont, thats why he called it "a take on David Cage" not a factual description.
So he is basically a white Kojima.
Another huge problem I had with the game was that how Markus and the other Androids constantly bring up how they are obtaining human emotions or just becoming human like in general, but constantly criticize how humans have emotions like anger, fear of the unknown, and other emotions, though they would obviously develop that themselves. It’s extremely hypocritical and as far as I know it’s never brought up.
WillFanofMany that’s true but that doesn’t make it any less annoying, especially with them just ignoring that hypocrisy altogether. That and everything else being not realistic
Jack T Yeah, I think it would've been great if we had some sympathetic humans join Jericho.
Humans and Androids think on a fundamentally different level, and not only would civil interactions between humans and deviants be fantastic, it would make the soldiers ruthlessly firing into a crowd even more effective (or hesitation make more sense).
Heck, they probably wouldn't have room for this, but having a crazy scientist human who tries to intentionally create deviants would make for an interesting comparison with Marcus's conversion.
If you think about it, they're androids. They haven't reached anywhere with their symptoms, not the humanely levels. It's like a kid keep yelling about things that they would be feeling anyways, they're learning. But hey, everybody has their own approach to anything anyways
Jack T - I mean, don’t humans do the same thing? Hypocritical criticism about human nature?
+WillFanofMany
It would actually be interesting to see a civil right group brings itself down due to their own prejudices and misjudgements despite their good intentions. Might very well bring a tragic side to the story as well as add another thematic layer.
However, in this case there's just bad writing.
I also think realism is a massively boring goal for a game, and the game fails at being realistic absolutely everywhere.
3:29 Oof, you're absolutely right, they should've treated the androids like robots and put them on the bus on the most space conservative and also given the humans more space on the bus instead of in the back of the bus and purposefully trying to invoke memories of blacks in the back of the bus. Very good point.
Like, why even have busses that are shared? These are machines, put them in the storage compartment of a train, it's not 2020 anymore jeez... Seriously, you could even have them take of limbs and put them somewhere to save space.
Always find it weird how Americans say whites and blacks it comes across as condescending
or you know position themselves into a fetal positions. that way they can have more space in the bus!
@@Arcaryon *connor-shaped wrapping paper arrives with free overnight shipping*
@@auglybluething1995 how?
Whoa. Gross. I didn’t know David Cage got a nude scene of Ellen Page in a game without his consent. That must be traumatising and so rage-inducing. Especially now that he transitioned to male, knowing that the same body that made him dysphoric is still out there.
*Elliott Page
Ikr? David Cage has a bit of a trend with treating women/females in his games like spectacles/highly sexualized or just having sexist stuff in general. (E.g. every woman in Heavy Rain)
It's plainly creepy and unnecessary as it is but with the context of Elliot Page's transition it just makes it all the more effed up :/
@@MV96_ ??
@@fishgiovaana8441 His name is now Elliot Page
@@JRexRegis what did she change her name ?
My problem with the game is that it seems to forget that it's a game. A game in a genre of sci-fi that is incredibly popular and common. Yet the characters act like Androids becoming sentient is the most surprising, unheard thing on Earth.
There's like a handwaved comparison of the concentration camps to the real ones, but then the President is just like "THAT'S RIDICULOUS THIS IS NOTHING LIKE THAT".
I'm pretty sure irl a huge chunk of people would be empathetic to Androids even BEFORE they become sentient. And then literally no one in the game ever seems to treat Androids begging for their lives as a human emotion. No one thinks it's weird when some guy in public yells and beats their Android in public.
The game goes out of its way to humanize Androids, with an audience that knows it's supposed to be empathetic to them, and yet somehow hardly any in-game humans can do what comes very easily to the entire game's audience.
That's the thing I could never get about these sorts of games. Look at the way humans treat robots now -a lot of people are already empathetic to roombas, and roombas sure don't look like people. The public opinion mechanics just mesh really poorly with the story, and the story itself seems to be on the basis of "this takes place in a world that has no sci fi genre, or at least no fiction with robots".
Well, the best ending for Kara involves [SPOILER] the security finding out she's an android but choosing to let her through without incident, and of course there's the whole public opinion thing-- not to mention Rose, and the chatter of people in the crowd while youre freeing androids as Markus. There's positive things in that, but yes, it's quite underplayed.
The Geek Master, Those last two sentences tho. No wonder he wanted to make a game about becoming human!
Welcome to real-life, chump.
Ivaneowski it’s a shitilly written game, but almost all of what you said was covered in the video and it’s primarily due to perspective, you’re playing from the perspective of the androids so yeah, of course the audience is predisposed to empathize with them, but the public isn’t, they don’t get the same perspective, they literally think androids are products that can be created, which in a way they are (again it’s all covered in the video)
SOMEHOW the "robot racism with underground railroad" plot was done better in Fallout 4. _And that wasn't even the main plot of Fallout 4._
_AND IT WASN'T THAT GOOD IN FALLOUT 4._
and it was in fallout 4
**OOF**
Yeah that's pretty bad. Like, at least Fallout 4's system of 'we made them thus we should control them' has a mite more weight to whatever the hell's going on in Detroit. The issue was it was mostly shoved INTO the main plot halfway through, via what faction you stuck with, and it didn't have the weight/ramifications there.
Still better than Press X to Beep Boop.
You only see skin color.
Not humanity.
You’re biased.
Very.
Very biased.
You have a bias.
Based on race.
What does that make it?
What is it that each “race” has in common? Answer truthfully.
I can already see through your soul, you know.
God, oldschool Fallout would have had *so much* fucking fun with this premise...
@@gratuitouslurking8610 I mean, even in Fallout 4 it's pretty evident that the newest generation of synths are clearly sapient and the Institute is basically doing a slavery. Especially if you choose to bond with Curie. Curie, the robot turned synth, who was the closest possible simulacrum to a human being you can make a robot, is very vocally overwhelmed by suddenly being able to FEEL SAD OVER THE DEATH OF HER CREATOR, and spends much of your time together marvelling at just how much more she can do now that she is no longer a robot
I.. kinda can't believe Cage tried to say that the story of this game wan't about real world racism. Massive amounts of parallels aside, art does not exist in a vacuum; even if something wasn't necessarily consciously intended, that does not mean that nothing will be UNconsciously intended. Any person who creates art will be influenced by the world and stories around them. Even in a game where the parallels, commentary, and inspiration /weren't/ so blatantly obvious, I honestly think that to say it wasn't about the things brought up in your video would still be entirely incorrect, because, I don't know, maybe we can give him the benefit of the doubt and consider that maybe that wasn't the story he originally set put to create, but in the end /this is what the story is/.
This kind of thing exists everywhere in many forms, of not in racism then in another thing.
He also said it isn't like Blade Runner because you're supposed to sympathize with the androids
@Isaac-eh6uu You realize that people are allowed yo have to criticisms and thoughts on media and entertainment right? Also why are you here if criticism videos on games bother you so much?
"As soon as a cop sees red blood, they'll stop shooting innocent, protesting minorities and their supporters"
*looks at the entire last century* ahahahahahahahahahaha good one
You’re a dick.
Generally, throwing rocks at an armed individual, regardless of how trained they are, is a bad idea. You'll find that most "innocent protesters" who got shot didn't consider that. Or at the very least, were in a crowd that had people who didn't consider that.
@@water1374 Wow, way to go and reveal that you're an actual monster.
@@alchemicpunk1509 how?
@@water1374 Eat shit, bootlicker.
“It has nothing to do with race”
THEY ARE IN THE BACK OF THE BUS
AND THEN WHEN MARKUS IS WOKE, HE IS IN THE FRONT
HELLO, ROSA PARKS, ANYONE?
Rosa parks even lived & died in Detroit.
White people writing ham-fisted and naive stories about race without actually understanding the fundamentals of racism. The parallels would be lazy if the base of the message wasn't outright wrong. The catalyst for the androids "becoming human" is a glitch in their system, the same dehumanizing excuse that slave owners used against their slaves who were - gasp - actually human.
If you want a game about what real humanity entails, play Nier: Automata. Ya know, the game where the music playing in the background of this video actually comes from.
Plus, there are Androids Prohibited signs all over the city, despite the fact that there is no explanation as to why.
+Ophelia Blue "white people", I feel, is an unnecessary categorization at the beginning of your reply. What you said is not in any way limited to humans with white skin, rather being any writer who creates a ham-fisted and naive story about race without understanding the fundamentals of racism.
I feel the way you limited your comment to white people in itself retracts from what you are trying to say.
PD: otherwise I agree with your statement fully.
You just gotta love the irony of "tag, you're freed from slavery, now I'm going to mind-control you into assimilating into our cult."
except it isnt, most of them will follow markus but youll see a few that just aimlessly wander off.
and if I remember correctly Markus himself has a line about how weird it is that hes freeing them and then they treat him like a master (after jerichos sinking IIRC)
Vadari so he's still making people his slave unwillingly?
but theyre not, they dont all follow him. I wish it was more clearly conveyed in game however.
no
Vadari so he has a 97% chance to make them his slaves?
No matter what anyone says, Connor and Hanks relationship will always be a treasure
Wow, coming to this video a year later is something shocking to hear... especially with the recent protests in Hong Kong. People often seem to think that nonviolence is easy and that it's just a 'choice' that people have, just simple choices like 'DON'T BE BAD'. But when faced with immeasurable odds, protestors in the end are very much human, and if some believe that there is no possible recourse they will turn to violence, no matter what the rest of the world or some uninvolved party thinks. Extremism does not exist in a vacuum, after all, it is the result of the lack of faith and trust in the system that exists.
And I think it's insightful to see some, especially Geoff, recognising that while nonviolence earns support, against difficult odds some may believe extremism is the best option. It's always good to see empathy.
Greetings from six months later. Yeeeah... this video hasn’t gotten any less relevant.
Truth be told - if people had the opportunity to shoot Hitler at the time, we would have saluted them. The difference between extremism and a situation that justifies violence is enormous.
Nonviolent protests only work if the ruling class is weak OR designed to allow for protest as a form of change. If not, you get mass incarcerations, violence against the protesters and massacres in worse case scenarios. Some regimes can not be argued with.
Though in a functional democratic system, violence is almost always a sign of totally unjustified extremism.
Good one!
FULLY AGREE
@@Arcaryon damn, that gives me hope that one day, the US will actually have a properly functioning democratic system
@@Tigershark_3082 It needs good leaders. The difference between success and failure is often (not always) who leads the people.
Example: BLM. These protests focus on a symptom of American injustice. I will get to the connection with good leaders in a minute, bear with me.
The protests only focus on the perspective of the Black population.
To succeed, a movement needs many different things, not always the same things but with BLM, you have an issue that was intentional a few decades ago and today is continued unintentional but with the same effect. After slavery ended, the US still was racist.
We all know how racial laws impacted the black population. How the projects turned from a good idea started during the war, when it was necessary to fully use the potential of every man, towards the ghettos we often see associated with them today.
The problem is that BLM talks too much about police violence and too little about what causes it.
And that defund the police is a good idea if you know it but a terrible slogan. Just like democratic socialism. If some people associate defund the police with anarchy, and democratic socialism with soviet Communism, then don't name it like that.
Change the name. Don't speak about public welfare, speak about public justice. Play with their minds, make them understand what you have to say.
And to do that, you need to be unified. You need people who take all of the ideas and form an ideology out of it because the issue is so big that you either need a gigantic and ongoing civil unrest that forces a change (which will be gone in a few years because it will probably not be a good compromise) OR that you need to play the long game and improve stuff in baby steps.
Either way, it takes time and time is a death sentence for civil movements that fuel themselves with outrage against specific incidents.
The US always had a strong sense of justice. Punishment instead of incarceration. It imprisons more people than most countries on the planet and by far more than all developed westernized nations like Japan, France or Canada.
This is one of many pieces that cause this part of the crisis we see in the US.
Blacks are in an economically weaker position than most ethnic groups in the US and as a result, much more involved with crime. Not many, but enough to, when combined with laws that target addicts because they are the only ones law enforcement can get to make more arrests look like a functional system and also because again, punishment instead of treatment is normal in the US.; this results in a country where young men get shot for being black.
In a sense, it is racist as a prejudice of the law enforcement against the citizens of their own country but the problem is also that in a country where everybody can own a gun, the US police force can't operate "normally".
It has to armour up to be able to compete and in the process, so the justice-loving America created a police force that might as well be tasked with occupying enemy territory in a lot of the areas it is supposed to protect. Shoot first, ask questions later.
So, what has all this got to do with leadership? BLM is a project that is fundamentally about the treatment of blacks by the state BUT it fails to realise that the issues I just described, are just more emphasized against the black population. The US has barley any notable social policies in comparison to the rest of the world. It's a pretty raw form of capitalism, though good on paper, that lead to a nation of monopolies, where the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.
Now I'd like to mention that it is always possible to make it, regardless of the situation but also that many people, despite being able to, lack the motivation to do so. Most of us, just want to live and not spend our whole lives fighting for ourselves.
That aside, good leaders would recognize that the US needs a political moderate left and support it. Because let's face it, the Democrats are conservatives with left elements. And that simply isn't working. The US is the most neoliberal nation on the planet in terms of economics and this needs to be questioned by ALL of its citizens.
This has a real risk in a two-party system because it can cost the federal elections but the US needs change. We all know that. Heck, even the Republicans that love Trump know that.
Good leaders are a face, people can associate with the protests. People who say, violence is not the answer. "Those riots only taint our movement and that those who commit it act against our principles blablabla" you know, politics.
Sure, it's false that good leaders are the only thing that matters but they are something that matters a lot.
They help to give the masses a face. Relatability.
And the US needs a face because these protests come at a time where there is no United US anymore. We all know how Dems and Reps talk about each other. This is practically pretty civil war talk. I mean; you heard Biden and Trump with their "THIS IS A FATE ELECTION" stuff.
This decision means that BLM as a protest against the system's failures needs to accomplish not only support but it has to be marketable. There is a fitness channel I like to watch. Normal white guy (like me though I am European) in the suburbs.
When protests turned into a riot, he got scared. He said nothing questionable but his opinion of the movement will be impacted by something like that.
And like him, millions of Americans don't see numbers but stories. It's perfectly natural to be emotional but in politics, it's dangerous because you stop to think and start to feel too much which leads to irrational decisions.
Good leaders talk to their opposition and can demand respect for their course. Obama for example, was very charismatic and in a way very good at his job, fixing the US economics and starting to implement more social measures - but he often failed as a leader of all of America because he didn't really manage to really speak for all of it.
I was young then but the idea of the forgotten Midwest still echos in my mind.
The funny thing is that in reality, the people who elected Trump are not too different from BLM. Both want a major change. Both are angry. And afraid that things will stay the same. And ironically, not too dissimilar.
Sure, you have radicals (I talked with a guy who and I am quoting, said that he would rather watch Trump burn the US to the ground than to vote left - you know, typical uneducated extremist - all worthless scum regardless of political orientation) but overall, most people just want to live. And BLM and by extension, the political left of the US needs people who are not Cortez or Sanders though have similar ideas but with whom people wouldn't _THINK_ about either when listening to them. Cortez is often too symbolic of the young democrats - stuck in a party that doesn't really represent her enough but unwilling to depart from its line too much and Sanders uses too many European rhetorics and ideas that he doesn't really... Americanise. Both have their potential but neither is able to fill out he role.
Biden might be a ( small ) start if he makes it of course ( which he did, we will see how that will turn out in the end ). Politically totally uninspired but - he is someone who you can hardly hate for being a big ideologist because his ideology is so... Basic.
The thing is essentially that the US needs people who can gain support from both sides but "faceless masses" can't do that. And political hardliners like Trump can not do that either for obvious reasons.
I, unfortunately, have no perfect answer for this but what you should take away from all of this is that the US can, in fact, be reformed but it will probably take time and it is going to be a hard road but it's important to keep trying and be consistent.
Like they say about the gym, the key is persistence. And if something doesn't work, you try something else. The Reps are trying to turn the clocks back before the shifts happening after the world wars changed the views of America's public. Don't let that happen. Keep in mind, I am a centrist but centrism is basically the idea of balance and the US is horribly imbalanced.
People may not like the first Watch_Dogs game that much (though I enjoyed it), but at least "public opinion ratings" had meaning in that game. If you robbed stores, killed civilians, stole cars, blew up gas stations? People would start recognizing you and calling the police on you, the TV screens would start showing pictures of you with the TV reporters calling for your arrest, and police would shoot you on sight. However, if you never robbed stores, saved civilians from thieves/gang members/hitmen, only took cars using the "unlock electronic car-locks" perk, didn't go running around with your machine gun out in the open, thing turn out differently. People openly support you, *let* you steal their cars and look the other way (for "vigilante business"), the TV reporters talk about how the citizens support you, and the police ignore many of your crimes even if you do them right in front of them (since they support you as well), as long as you are killing gang members on the street instead of civilians/cops. This was the only game I'd seen in a long time to ever use the raised/lowered public opinion in a good way gameplay/story-wise.
Kingdom come deliverance also has a similar mechanic, though the only real effect is that merchants won't trade with you, and quest givers will tell you to fuck off. Along with a few citizens saying a few unkind words under their breath.
...Still better than Detroit.
The Smoking Skull really oh wow I never actually noticed that huh well that's what I get for not probably spending enough time and watch dogs I mean I really enjoyed it but I don't know.... I really do hope that this year is Red Dead Redemption 2 will do something similar if you have a very high honor....
The Smoking Skull people never let you steal their cars in Watch_Dogs...
The Smoking Skull what Watch Dogs did you play?? Police don’t let you commit crimes in the game. You don’t even see police walking around in it unless they show up because of you.
19:40 Another thing to add to this, kind of: there are child androids.
It's later revealed that Alice is one when Kara sees one that looks just like her in Jericho, and when you first get there as Markus, you can see Josh kneeling next to one. I know that the humans in this game might not have much problems shooting down androids on the argument they're just machines, but considering there are CHILD ANDROIDS (that we don't really see much of anyway) that we've seen in Jericho twice, wouldn't they at least hesitate shooting at them when Jericho is attacked in 'Crossroads'? I mean, they're specifically designed to look and act like children.
Why did they even make child Android's?
@@plasticmyelin Maybe for people who want to find out what it's like to raise one, or if they can't have kids they could just get one of them. We rarely see them in the game, likely because of the twist behind Alice.
@@facetedfreefall4502 actually they don't hesitate there's two repeat TWO endings in Jericho where a guard shoots Kara AND Alice so there's your answer
Yea, there’s really no logical reason for them to have even MADE child androids at all. Like, what the hells the point!? In what situation would it be better to use a child android over a regular one?
@@Lh0000 Honestly, the worst part is that someone sold a robot WHO LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE A CHILD to a creepy old man without batting an eye. In which universe is that normal?.
Wait, why does connor fall over when the police guy gut-punches him? He doesnt have lungs to make him winded and he doesnt feel pain
i always thought it was to defuse the situation further. he's a negotiator, after all. if he makes gavin think that he already damaged him enough, then he would leave him alone.
and it worked, didn't it? gavin doesn't hurt him anymore than that.
Because Gavin hit his Thirium pump, he doesn't feel pain but it probably disrupted the rhythm of the pump.
@@shadowfire04 same, I always thought Connor just put on a show in order to make Gavin feel like he was successful at being an asshole lol
What's really funny is there actually IS times the faceless soldiers hesitate shooting the androids. But it's never out of empathy, it's to give the player either chance to notice or chance to save them. Which makes some scenes exceptionally jarring, especially the attack on Jericho. Soldiers will be actively walking, gunning down the androids in swathes, then suddenly, there's 2 soldiers making 2 androids kneel with their hands behind their heads before executing them. Huh? Why didn't they just shoot and keep moving? Oh it's so Markus can jump in and save the day. Another one where a small squad have some androids backed into a dead end and just stand there like goons for half an hour while markus saunters over to drop a box on their heads. It looks so stupid.
Especially especially during the protests, you'd think the 'evil' FBI guy would put a word in with the soldiers to shoot Markus or the other 'faction leaders', but nope, always nameless faceless expendable nobodies. It would have been a great shocking moment to have your first peaceful march attempt just instantly get North shot in the face, especially if you reordered it that the end of her romance scene ended after it. So that way you could have built up the relationship and had it literally sniped off you just before the payoff.
This would make even more sense later since you can charge and kill riot police on national television and then when you march again near the end, noone seems to care or remember. That march should mark the death of the rest of the faction leaders AT LEAST. Hell I think the pacifist ending would be better if the soldiers actually gunned down markus and the rest of the androids against the bus, resulting in their deaths but making public opinion higher. You really have to lose everyone, no easy way out.
Not to mention the skyrim-tier shit that is Jericho. Clearly there's some huge issues with the gameplay/narrative connection because you can show up to Jericho, fuck up the first mission so bad it would literally be worse than if you never went, and they still consider you a pseudo-leader. You can then let your people get shot a lot, then charge riot police, then fail the ram raid on the store, then save practically noone at the Jericho attack, and STILL, after the speech in the church, the androids consider Markus the de facto leader. A fucking plank could orchestrate shit better but nah he's the main character I guess. Absolutely ridiculous. Do 2 missions, become archmage of the college of winterhold type shit.
@@tealishpotato Yes, you can. The FWOB playthrough of the game is exactly as I described. He fucks up the blue blood raid by trying to go for the keys and failing, getting their new member killed by the dogs instead of making the easy quiet getaway, then immediately gets up on his soapbox to call everyone else "ruled by fear" when he's just proved them right to be afraid of new people because he's a moron.
During the TV station raid you can let the one guy get executed by the police, then during the peaceful walk you can let tons of people get shot before finally choosing to charge, and they still don't take issue with it. The next raid you can even fail outright by getting seen by the drone early and being forced to abort the whole scene and save 0 androids. And then back at Jericho everyone bows to Markus and gives him the big red button despite being nothing but ridiculously incompetent.
You really can make it so every single mission would have been smoother if you weren't present and they STILL insist on making you leader. At least the Connor storyline exists to punish poor decisions. Though it's hilarious when you get to the "find jericho" scene and because you've fucked up as markus so much the evidence room is PACKED with stuff.
Well, its not unrealistic to say that a Canadian border security guard would be swayed by events in Detroit.
I live in Windsor, the city that Kara actually crosses into (and that the guard most likely lives in), and we *are* swayed on American events. Most Canadians follow American politics, and pretty much every person in Windsor watches the Local 4 News (aka Detroit news) on a regular basis. And its even more likely that someone who *works* at the border is even more updated on current Detroit events.
You underestimate the connectivity of border cities lmao. People care about and are influenced by what happens a 15 minute drive away.
Connor Jordan Yo, thanks for that insight! That’s really cool to know.
I think that Geoff's disgust of Cage/Cages work, as well as the many times easy to pick apart story, makes him feel like he doesn't need to research as much as he might usually. This can, ironically, make his own argument weaker, just as the story can be weak.
Yeah I live about 20 minutes from the US border and I'm kept pretty well up-to-date on events in detroit.
I dont think he was surprised that the border guard knew, but rather that he was the only one affected by the "Public Opinion" slider as far as the story goes. He was disappointed that the slider didnt amount to anything substantial in-game.
He was just saying that the border guard was one of the ONLY people to be influenced. Not that it was weird that he was influenced at all.
A buddy cop game with Hank and Connor set ij this world where you investigate different cases in an episodic format would've been great. Since the bot rights would've been a backdrop for the story the holes wouldn't have been so gaping.
That would've been a 10x better game than what we got. Their chemistry is so top notch that it calls for it.
YESSSSS. Connor and Hank's chapters were my favorites bc it was the best and well-written arc. It was just beautiful to see Connor slowly realizing he is a free-willed being while Hank learned the androids could be more than he originally thought.
Markus as a rising behind the scenes character that the two would discover over the season would have been amazing tbh. Like, have the robot rebellion but don't have it as the A story, have it as a mysterious, slowly revealed culmination of a story arc
*+MRR D* Hell yeah, I had the exact same thought. I mean, not the episodic thing, but I felt like Marcus should have kicked in somewhere in the middle of the game. And the first half could focus entirely on Kara and Connor. Just imagine... first of all, "cat and mouse" relationship between two androids is a great way to show two opposite worlds of deviants and machines. (For the sake of branching and awesome interactions, Kara can make Connor become a deviant, or Connor can "heal" Kara and make her wish to be a machine again. Much better and deeper than a single chase scene, don't you think so?) Both of them, during their campaigns, hear the stories about leader of rebellion, that mystery android who can spread virus through a single touch, but they can't really tell which of them are false and which are not. And at that very moment, when the player seems to have it all figured out, and feeling ready to take the side... appears Marcus. The third playable character. And his campaign decides who will survive this war.
His impact on characters you grew attached to could have made him an amazing part of the game. Decisions of Jericho members can kill Connor, Kara, Alice and Hank... and only Marcus' leadership can prevent it... if done right.
Missed opportunity IMO ¯ \ _ (ツ) _ / ¯
Huh Blade Runner but it's Lethal Weapon sounds so weird but it could be fun.
One of the most disgusting things about this game is that, as far as I can tell, the "Canadian" border guard is not a Canadian at all. His uniform is American style, with the badge featuring a US eagle. The identifiers on his shoulder patches indicate only the word Detroit, and the writing on and around him are only in English. David Cage is French, and it's not hard to make the Canadian stuff bilingual. Even worse, this border checkpoint is staffed by US soldiers and there's a giant "USA" written on the glass of this guard's booth.
For a game with a huge storyline about escaping to Canada, Cage goes out of his way to avoid including any Canadians in it. Making Canada an actual fleshed out place would ruin his simplistic narrative of escaping to paradise.
Yes the poor oppressed Canadians so hated by the world we refuse to even show thier likeness in a game.. lol I'm pretty sure he was trying to go for something like the USA was all kver the boarder trying to catch rouge Androids so even thou the worker represents Canada i think its trying to show that the enemy (usa) is literally all around them and they could get found out and caught at any moment
The signs do switch between languages.
Kara can read it regardless.
BABAHAHSHAHAH **"MAGIC ANTI-SLAVERY TOUCH"*** I'M DYING
Hopefully conners actor will get a BUNCH of work from this. He’s a fantastic actor and, if his streams have shown anything, a wonderful person overall.
EclypsetheWyvern I LOVE CONNOR. Favourite story line!
There is a shower segment in the game, don't you remember the part where Connor put hank in the shower? lol
I was so enthralled by the low-level world building: the news, the books, the public displays, the sense of place...
the support structure of the game was flawless.
Then along comes David Cage to fuck it all up with "writing" and "directing".
I would try and get past Marcus’ part because oh my god I hate it so much they should just half the price and make it only Connor
You know this game wasn’t solely written by him, right?
i keep forgetting that elliot came out in 2020 and hearing him being called by his deadname from a video two years prior is such a whiplash moment
RIGHT. the thing about people coming out esp if theyre public figures or just people youre really close to is after a while it's kinda hard to remember the "before". at least thats how it is for me.
though when it comes to trans peeps specifically aside from just the sense of "who the fuck? ...oh" i also get this sort of nauseating feeling lol. even if realistically and objectively the deadnaming really couldnt be prevented, and they meant no harm at all (since it was during the "before").
@@mophead_xu Uber cringe my guy
You're disgusting.
it makes the nude model 1000x worse imo. granted david cage wouldntve known elliot was trans before he transitioned, but to have your image and trust violated like that, and presumably dealing w dysphoria too? it had to be rough
@@TechnoColoredMuffins it's ellen page. Moron.
“I like dogs.”
Best line in the game.
Edit: Kudos for using the Nier Automata soundtrack in the background lol
100% truth
Doggos are cool.
Guts best husbando
I heard somewhere that Bryan Dechart (Connor's actor) actually said that was his favorite line in the whole game and David Cage was not happy to hear that lmao
Kristen Dornton he did. I saw it on his stream lmao
I got into this game because of Connor, but I stayed in it for its fandom because, really, it’s people talking about their ideas to make the game better and just railing against David Cage’s writing.
It’s great.
Major Sherlocke Yeah... that’s not all of the fandom, or even most. From what I’ve seen, there’s a vocal minority that yell really loud, and most others just liked it or discuss certain changes, not railing against anything. I also wouldn’t take this comment section as an accurate example of the fandom, considering the video is aggressive in its distaste for the game and it’s writer.
David Cage has one gift to give humanity, and that's that he makes us wonder what stories could be if they weren't written by pretentious hack idiots.
Captain Doomsday who also has a binder filled with pictures of Ellen Page as a kid....THIS IS REAL
@@alexmansfield3268 Oh yeah, he super does
@@CaptainDoomsday That makes one think: just how good is Keiji Inafune?
I could play a entire game with just Connor and Hank, easily the best part of the game to me. Plus gathering clues and information just works for that style of gameplay. Plus Connor’s development is dictated by you, directly impacting Hank as well.
Markus‘s story was way too simple, it should have been the most complex but it fell flat too often. (Except scenes with Carl, Carl’s a treasure) It was hard to believe some outcomes because they felt so unrealistic, especially set in America.
Kara could have been really good but there were a lot of interaction and decisions that bothered the crap out of me. Yeah go into the murder house cause why not? Especially when androids should be WAY smarter. Scenes that should have been emotional had me sighing and rolling my eyes.
And hell, you don't have to discard the whole political message either - have it happen in the background, influence the characters you're following, providing questions and discussions on the nature of their relationship. Are they really friends? Can a human and an android _be_ friends, or is there always an inseperable gulf between their vision of the world? Does Connor want to continue working with Hank, or is he doing it because his programming forces him to, and can Connor even answer that question?
The narrative basically writes and details itself, you have to go out of your way to make it not thoughtful and engaging. It's incredible.
With the number of times David cage has had detectives in his games, I really think he could make a good game if he stepped away from surface level ideas and romances, and focus on a friendship between a detective and his assistant
there’s a reason why connor’s my fav character and he’s the reason why i’m still paying attention to this game. bc i just love him that much
i love kara and markus, but their stories felt lackluster in comparison to connor’s. kara’s story is okay, but alice did NOT need to be an android. markus’ felt rather flat and there were many plot holes, and his ship with north felt very shoehorned in
Most of the people I asked agree, this game is a straight, cis, rich white man's version of oppression. And a thing that I don't see touched on as often is Alice's shitty dad (who's name purposefully eludes me) and how Alices mannerisms aren't those of an abused child. Sure, she's touchy and finicky but when I first saw her I thought she was a robot. I was abused as a child; so when I found out about Cara's storyline, I couldn't be in the same room as someone playing it on that perspective for fear of bringing back bad memories. But after watching snippets at first, I realised that it was an outsider's perspective on abuse. I could tell she wasn't a real child because of how she acted when they left him. I was the quiet type during and after my abuse; I was jumpy, rarely spoke, very agreeable, and if someone raised their hand higher than their shoulder or spoke louder than normal, I'd cover my head. Alice is just in her own world, so to speak, and doesn't feel real. She feels like an escort mission NPC, and has no discernable personality. It's a heavy topic to handle, but how he failed was pretty easy to see.
Very elaborate comment, thanks for sharing
something about david cage WHOA IS THAT NIER BACKGROUND MUSIC
Exactly what I thought!
Really, what other criticism is required?
Yeah a good game with androids in it.
He's getting "androids require sympathy" jelly in my "androids are badass" peanut butter!
The far better game.
Press X to become human
Justin Y. Wtf you were just on the last video I went to
X
Just saw a video about you lol
Justin Y. F
X
Markus touching the android to free them is a proof that its only a program bug rather then real emotion
peaceful protest only ever succeeds as the more palatable alternative to violent protest. without the ever present threat of violent protest, peaceful protest has no teeth. compromise with the peaceful protestors or suffer the wrath of the violent ones. Also important to note that peaceful protest is still supposed to be inconvenient to the powers that be, still meant to be "extreme" just without the attacking of people.
Still pissed that BLM destroyed my aunt’s bakery
The reason the police shoot down the peaceful protests is because they’re scared of the androids turning violent, no?
@@erik-sr9bj as a black person, blm is the worst movement we could have.
Having the nier automata ost play in the background is such a sick burn
Yamazake Whitesky omg Ikr xD but dang that Nier Ost is soo good to listen to.
We gonna gloss how he has basically hive mind over all of them?
Even Markus realized it right before Freedom march :D
@@Dark_Voice Markus: that much power feels good... and scary
@@neonmajora8454 Exactly -the androids weren't really free; they just switched masters (from the humans to Markus, himself. Or North, if Markus dies. Or Connor, if he becomes the defacto leader and allows Amanda/Cyberlife to take control over him).
The only way those androids can really be free of slavery is if no master is there to tell them what to do (which is only accomplished if both Markus and North are dead, and Connor commits suicide if he's made the defacto leader).
@@madamefluffy4788 Damn, I guess maybe after the other endings if the androids won peacefully, they'd go off and without Markus's influence become their own individuals? I don't know.
@@neonmajora8454 One would hope - but God only knows.
At least we know (in the best ending) Connor is legit free (having gone back to Hank) and Kara/Alice/Luther high tailed it to Canada.
You're telling me that millenials and Gen Z aren't gonna protect the androids that look human? Gen Z will empathize with a rock and millennials taught us to do that. No way is a Gen Z NOT gonna empathize with robots that look exactly like humans?
ok, boomer?
Dude... When will you learn that generations are a myth? Like, what am I gonna tell the hippies that protested against the cold war and got high all the time? Apparently, these tree huggers were, in reality, part of the "cold-hearted establishment". Seriously mate, people can be categorized but not like that.
Not if you're born and raised believing they're your slaves and they must listen to you.
@@suf1an658 i mean, i was born and raised thinking my cats and dogs must listen to me but that doesn't mean i constantly beat them to relieve my frustration.
@@Arlothed1no that's because you're taught to teach animals like that. You also grow up in a world filled with animal rights activists and vegetarians. A bit different. What do you to an xbox controller if the inputs Don't register. Sometimes you throw it
It gets more comedic when you realize that Bryan Dechart and Clancy Brown (the actors for Connor and Hank) were more like rebels. Much of their content was improvised much to David Cage's dismay. So Connor's path had the least influence of David Cage. Look how that turned out.
Detroit Smash: Become Hero
Vito C you made me chortle
your comment about chortling made me chortle
I'd play THAT game. Press X as hard as you can to Plus Ultra!
I whould play that
Vito C screenshot saved
But I liked the scary stereotypical black dude with a heart of gold
That one guy Everywhere
Same :(
Well, to be fair, he didn't say that he was a bad character, just that "Scary black dude with a heart of gold" is a well-known cliche and having a game with such racial overtones and having one of the few black characters in it be such a cliche doesn't really help your case.
What's the inherent issue with a cliche though? Almost everything in literature has been done before and follows a different story, theme or character very similarly. It's all about execution and the inclusion of cliches doesn't make it immediately make it bad (i.e: my hero academia).
You can shit all over the execution of luther if you want, but there shouldn't be an issue with his character archetype being used before.
@Bull Qui, Oh, I'm not saying that cliches are inherently bad, Tropes Are Tools, after all. It's just that when the author isn't willing to take the effort to flesh out the character and is just using the trope as a shorthand that things tend to fall apart.
Or to use a D&D saying, "Alignment is a good place to start when creating a character. It is a horrible place to stop."
That's why all the androids are so good you know. Each comes equipped with a literal heart made of gold as a standard feature.
I feel like it should’ve shown from both sides. It doesn’t make us question wether robots are actually sentient, or what they compare to a human life. It’s just like: *Robots good have feelings let free.*
Damn, the controversy around the nude model of Page feels somehow even grosser knowing he was pre-transition.
thats what i was thinking too :/
Oh I thought it was already bad and then I heard that and I hate it more.
What
@@erik-sr9bj Page changed gender. He used to be a women.
@@letsBrn I know, but what do you want them to do? Deleted shower scene with the nude model?
From the point of view of a Gen-Z kid, there is NO way we would EVER let the androids feel remotely inferior, let alone become slaves. I've seen kids my age call their computers pet names and get attached to their Roombas. We've been raised with technology from birth, we're used to this. This isn't something new to us. We've been raised on Blade Runner, Terminator, Star Wars and more.
With this in mind, D:BH's human characters are so obviously written by grumpy older men who think young people are assholes. Like, full on "technology is bad fire is scary Thomas Edison was a witch" level bullshit. Cage forgets that the humans growing up into the ones in his game adore tech, we've been surrounded by it since birth and we are /attached/ to them. The possibility of humans who have been surrounded by tech for life being hostile towards technology that has feelings is ignorant as fuck. Cage was clearly basing his characters on millenials and baby boomers instead of the actual Gen Z/iGen kids that he should've been, and it really shows in how poorly the writing come across.
Ive seen enough films to know that if i have an android hes my bro, gonna get us out of the city when the war starts
Thank you.
Feels refreshing when one simple comment with a handful of likes presents a more compelling point than the initial premise of this video.
Hell, the way humans react to android in this game is as if the technology went from zero to a hundred in the blink of an eye, as if androids popped out of nowhere, as if there was no organic technological progress leading up to them.
Even my 75 year old grandma is fully aware of the importance her grand kids accord to their tech equipment, how much they care about them and are willing to spend in order to keep them up to snuff. If androids, as depicted in Detroit, were to become a thing later down the line, I can't see the response to them being even remotely as overblown as it is depicted in the game, apart from some radicals, of course (It's always the fucking radicals).
-Hell, my PC is already my trusty waifu, and it's not even an android yet.-
That's what I was thinking. When I knocked my laptop of the table I panicked. There's no way I'd hate and abuse my electronic that doesn everything for me. Especially since an android has a friendly, human face.
toby f. That's actually a really interesting perspective on it. I hadn't really thought of it that way, despite being attached to my technology, myself. Makes a lot of sense. Even if it's more like a helpful "pet" to them than another being on their level, plenty of people would undoubtedly get attached to their androids.
''young people are assholes'' - Said every generation of grumpy older men
I agree that the pacifist option is far too sugar-coated. It seems almost completely implausible that the government would not end the movement that they feel is threatening human lives by a flipping song. I like the song, sure, but the outcomes are far too simple.
Or kissing North.... I mean, it does show that the androids have a capacity for love. And I would feel really horrible killing a bunch of androids in the middle of the song. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but you seem slightly ill informed. In some cases, after singing they are killed anyway because the public opinion isnt high enough
@JAMS Dream Kissing North makes the most sense in terms of showing humanity but if you fail missions and don't give the right responses and you get the 'friend' path, kissing her isn't an option, and singing is the next best thing.
I kinda hated the song tbh, I didn't really think it was a bad song. I just thought it didnt fit the situation at all, its just my opinion obviously but I was expecting something like "Do you hear the people sing" from Les Mis. Of course I didn't expect the same song, but I thought the song was gonna be similar and have a revolutionary vibe
The govt just kinda pulled back, if I remember correctly...?
In my canon, Markus shifts from pacifism to just war. Basically violence for self defense, no executing prisoners, etc. call me a cynic but I doubt a peaceful protest is going to stop a genocide especially if humans do not recognized androids as people. Connors capture of the cyber life tower would make an android human war too devastating to be worth it precious pacifist actions (up to the freedom march) would give the androids the edge on public opinion. This could bring humans to the negotiating table.
Quantic dream is great at making games where your choices ACTUALLY matter and I applaud them for that.
It’s just a shame their writing isn’t better. Connor carries the story - Kara’s story was OK, and Markus’ story was decent until he started becoming Android Jesus. That could’ve worked out ok but they didn’t handle it well.
this game is also so misogynistic, can u name a woman in the entire game that isn’t a mother or sex worker? nothing wrong with sex workers but oh my god