Let's face it, if CZcams and the internet were available in 1978, Jacob would be speaking against men of color being allowed into the priesthood. Jacob's video is a dog whistle to those like-minded to try to put the genie back into the bottle.
In my former Mormon life as a Bishopric counselor, we had a transgender individual that attended our ward. She went to RS and participated. As a member of the bishopric, I heard a LOT of complaints about this person from ward members, and I know of one who stopped attending RS as a result of this woman attending. Their hate contributed to my shelf breaking.
I think it is important to point out that the "women only spaces in the church" are not spaces only for women if a man needs to sign off and agree to everything that they do.
What will happen the day this woman wants to be sealed in the temple? Having been a good and faithful member after her transition, when she meets a faithful priesthood holder who wants to marry her for time and eternity? Are they going to deny that to them, just like they denied it to black people once upon a time?
@@ciskavergozgorodey8197 on condition of her baptism they said she can't go to the temple (so already a tiered system, per usual). No eternal marriage it seems
My fa ily came to the new world w most of the ship leaving the old country for religious freedom. No surprise I have several prominent mormons. The stories are not happy in the least.
My ‘Lauren’, after years of suffering with dysphoria. Depression and days of being so lost in this very cruel life. Lauren took her life 4 days before Christmas. I miss my child who was my greatest teacher. Love anyway.
As a gay ex Mormon, the thought of the church being more accepting for LGBTQ people actually angers me. I would prefer if they stayed conservative. It would make my life easier. It would make it easier for me when people confront me about why I left. I would feel gaslit about how my feelings and views towards this issue against the church’s “old” or “original” view basically don’t matter anymore. It would feel like all my hard work putting up boundaries with the church and my own family would have been all for nothing bc now everyone is going to be “friendly” and “accepting” towards me? Not to mention all those queer Mormons who took their own lives back in 2015/2016 when the church made their position on homosexuality and marriage. The only good thing I see coming out of this is that it just keep solidifying for me that their “prophets” are not real. If they were 1 they wouldn’t have an anti LGBTQ stance and 2 they wouldn’t have to keep changing their “gospel” doctrine everyone 2-3 years bc people are leaving.
Fellow gay ex-mo. I agree. I wish the church would stop playing both sides of issues. People pay attention to the side that fits them and conveniently forget the side that does not.
Just as no one can prove or disprove the existence of a divine power, no one can rule out the possibility for a divine connection through prophets. That said, even as a kid I noticed the few-and-far-between frequency pattern of prophetic revelation in the scriptures and wondered how that harmonized with the 24-7 setup that is implied in the modern church. As an adult who is aware of many of the colossal mistakes of modern prophets, it’s pretty easy to see that the 24-7 idea is bogus. It’s also antithetical to the church’s scriptural pattern of seeking revelation by first seeking understanding. I can give space to a prophetic structure that seeks to take the will of the people to God for confirmation in the absence of a lightning bolt directive, and I hope that’s where we end up. If our leaders had the humility to listen to the plight of queer members and those who can reconcile queer lifestyles with scripture, your pain and that of countless others could have been avoided. I’m sorry.
@Maddi Don’t worry, they aren’t actually more accepting. Their motivations for what they are doing is empty, fake, and hollow. The Lord taught that the “heart” is what matters. This means the motivation for why individuals (or a church) matter a LOT! The lds churches apparent acceptance of “lgbt people” is an attempt to make the outward cup to appear clean, because their PR people and the data indicates that if the church can make the cup appear clean this way and to these people, that the membership bleed with slow. Thats all. Thats the only motivation. The heart of these old dudes and the “heart” of the lds church if you can define that hasn’t actually changed on the inside. Christ said make the inner cup clean. The inner cup of the lds church is precisely as filthy as it’s ever been since it was founded by Brigham young. They may have changed the paint job and shined up the outside of the cup a time or two, but it’s never been the case that a person drinking from the cup won’t die. Death is still the result of drinking from the lds cup. In a related note, my motivation for this comment was only to help bring some comfort to you.
Yes, but here on the video is John, seething with hatred and extremely unkind to Jacob. I wanted to hear ideas, analysis, and discussion. But this isn't disagreement, it's mostly vicious personal attack. His hate far exceeds what we see from Jacob. Do better guys!
I personally didn't feel hate from John. Anger, yes. But I think more people NEED to be a little bit angry about all the crap that's going on and stop being so ignorant. Even in the church we were taught about righteous anger and that is what I felt from John.
@shaycollier2090 I disagree. He really attacked him as a person, beyond his behaviors. Would he have confronted him that way in person? If it was really righteous anger, he totally over-did it! But really, it felt hateful to me. Would a really kind kind person talk to or about another person that way? Especially when they're obviously confused and on a difficult journey? John of all people should show more understanding and grace. It's like his experiences have made him more bitter instead of kinder.
Its always amazing how often the question of "why don't we still believe this" is asked within the membership, but never "why did we believe that in the first place?"
I’m only 40 minutes in, but it’s clear to me that Jacob’s complaint about this transgendered woman has far less to do with maligning trans people than it is a cry for help and understanding about how the Church seems to be doing about-faces on supposedly eternal doctrines. What I hear from Jacob here is that he desperately needs the Brethren to justify their two opposing positions. Jacob’s faith in prophets and the institution of the Church hangs in the balance. This is a sign for a large rift opening up in the Church, with all sides feeling disillusioned.
this strikes a chord in me, because with many neurodivergent people we're told "if you follow the rules you'll be a good person, get good things, " then one day you're told that it's okay to break one of the rules and suddenly you're like, wait, that rule didn't matter all this time? so other people can break the rule but not me? so have I been a bad person all this time for following the rule that no longer matters? For many of us it's already hard enough navigating society. Changing the rules throws us into chaos.
@@mormonstories You have forgotten what it is like to have your shelf begin to break. It wasn't that long ago that trans people were seen very differently than today and many things move slowly in the LDS world. He is clearly in pain and clinging to the traditional past and wondering what the heck happened to the "restored gospel". This is an opportunity to help people like him to transition. Our moral indignation doesn't help them with their moral indignation.
Hearing progressive Mormons be supported and the growth of language /dialogue makes me so happy. Growing up hearing such harmful rhetoric kept me closeted for many years and was one of my biggest issues with the gospel. Thank you Mormon stories ! ❤
To a degree I can verify that the brethren live in a bubble. Working for the church for the time that I did, I was surrounded by super intelligent individuals who had much more knowledge and understanding of modern concerns and challenges the membership was facing. I watched them hire (and fire) people who thought outside the box. My primary experience working at the church office building was an exercise in duplicitous messaging and everyone was always trying to serve two masters (religious and secular). It felt impossible at times and I shed more than a few tears as I tried to dial in the messaging while being sandwiched between individuals with dramatically different thinking and perspectives. It was chaotic then and seems to only have magnified since I left. This is a fascinating episode. We’re witnessing the church breaking apart. 😮 What were seeing is bright, young, intelligent church employees trying to put out fires consistently set ablaze by old, out-of-touch “prophets.” 😊
I kinda feel bad for Jacob in many ways. He seems careless and pretty cruel but he has been taught to think that way his whole life in the church. I thought likr that in many ways too as a member (live in a bubble and told what to think by parents and others who are naive) even despite loving and adoring and deeply trying to understand LGBTQ people. He's a product of the institution and I think we need to leave him space for changing. This is his unraveling and deconstructing. It's a shame he's doing it publicly, but I do see someone who MAY become an ally in the future as I now am. It's the church that needs to STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE and talking out both sides their asses which I agree with Jacob on. MAKE IT STOP SCCOJCOLDS.
Excellent point. Jacob has learned by MAGA and other xenophobic bigots that they can now be Loud & Proud with their Hate Mongering. Whilst, Church historically keeps bigotry on the down low.
I think perhaps the fear in Jacob’s eyes comes from the risk of losing his power as a man in a patriarchal power structure. His own self importance and control is being challenged.
in addition, i think the fear is he doesn’t want to be proven wrong, since he wants to be the Jordan Peterson of mormonism. his ego is too large for him to take an L.
Not quite that. It's more a vulnerability feeling where they go from believing that the Brehthren are unchanging as God is unchanging to things now being confusing because they see that they are not unchanging. Where that leads a person is unpredictable. In the meantime it's an item put up on his shelf.
To comment more on the subject as a whole, as an evangelical Christian, the mormon church always does this. They’ve been doing it since its inception. (And John just said it as I was typing 42:04). Because it’s not a church and its doctrine isn’t and hasn’t ever been sound. ”And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:26-27 ESV Whenever it has been forced to move socially, it always chooses to. The Protestant church has in some respects but without a central authority and hierarchical structure, splitting over issues or finding another church isn’t a problem. Hierarchical religion does not work. There is no intermediary between you and God. Not Joseph’s Myth, not a pope, not a priest, not a bishop, not Mary mother of Jesus.
As bigoted as Hansen is… he is correct in that members are confused. By moving the direction of being LGBTQ friendly, it theoretically destroys any thought of these leaders being prophets. This can cause a divide, create 2 religions, or people will leave in droves. The church is in a lose-lose situation, and I’m all for it.
So you really hate the Mormon church huh ? The church has problems, but they’ve done a lot of good too… I don’t know, I don’t think the collapse is a good thing … maybe I’m not getting your comment ?
Splitting of churches to more liberal and conservative churches has happend elsewhere as well. Usually the conservative churches in Europe end up being much smaller than liberal ones and they often shrink over time.
@@emppulinaIt is much more challenging for the LDS Church which has a line of prophets. Protestant churches can simply split based on doctrine, because there is no necessary lineage, as they are "Sola scriptura", based on the Bible alone. But for the LDS Church, you would need to have a person with some kind of credibility to become an alternative prophet. E.g. Nelson and Oaks splitting up might work, Uchtorf splitting off might work, but Jacob Hansen trying to found his own church will certainly not work. Alternatives would be liberal members converting to the community of Christ. Conservative members usually have no haven, as most of these havens involve polygamy. The only current alternative is Denver Snuffer, but even his influence is limited.
I agree Mormons are confused and I believe, as a former believing and confused Mormon😄 , they have ALWAYS been confused. Most of the time it's smaller potatoes type stuff but every now and then it is something central to their doctrine. This LGBTQ confusion has been brewing for a long time and it is largely due to Mormon leadership having no idea what they've been talking about for decades. One thing I personally am not confused about one bit, I don't feel bad for Jacob Hansen at all 😂
How is he bigoted? I don't understand that criticism. He was just explaining doctrine vs. practice. I don't think you can judge someone like that from one video anyway. Jeez!
I love it when John gets all upset and shouts. It shows true sincere passion. ❤ Why is this church (sect) all in everyone’s life? The Gospel is simple, love God, love your neighbor. It’s not regulate your neighbor.
@@sammiller4321 Because you can hear the sincerity and passion in his voice, so you know he is sincere. As to the second, Jesus said you will know this by the works that he does, so how you treat others and your neighbor shows your love.
It seems the church is treating trans folks the way they used to treat black folks. Deny them the priesthood, deny them access to the temple. I wonder if the church still expects them pay tithing?
I had a friend tell me years ago that the Church would need to change their stance on LGBTQ people.I recall telling her they never would.But now they are changing,I stepped away some 4 years ago,now Iwillremove my membership. The Lord does not make mistakes.!
My first thought when you asked, was also clearly DISGUST. BTW, this never-Mormon would never watch if not for your anger, John. It proves your integrity. ❤ (Then again, the first time dude's face flashed on-screen, my immediate thought was "latent homosexual". Sadly, they are often the biggest haters.)
I feel conflicted on this. Part of me feels so much happiness for positive changes in the church. However, there is also part of me that feels so gaslit. Feeling gaslit is really upsetting to me.
The church has hurt so many people over the years. When they come around 30 years late it feels phony and they don’t ever try to repair the damage they’ve done in the past.
Love caffeinated John! This dichotomy may split the church in two. MAGA Mormons will not stand for such progressive changes. Oh, Mormon Church, you in trouble, girl.
@@boysrus61I’m one of them. I’m a conservative exmo, but since leaving, I have become liberal on social issues. Yeah, grouping into MAGA Mormons is not the right way to go about this. Would I vote trump over biden? Hell yeah. Am I for gay and trans rights? Hell yeah. We can coexist without the labels.
@@kristivaldez5815By now I've heard several Exmos state that a large majority of Mormons are politically conservative. The church doomsday stuff is like Play-Doh for the MAGA manipulative fearmongers. It can all be bundled into one big world of fear. Just like the church leaders keep changing policy to keep members (and the tithe money) from leaving, the GOP keeps changing what they're feeding the base. It's really stark in the abortion area-- just a few years back it was "women can have any career they want!", now they are up there at the young conservatives conference telling young women that the best thing they can do for the cause is be good wives and "have babies!" That's damage control due to Trump killing Roe v Wade, trying to convince women it's the divine plan to put all of the rights in the hands of people with different body parts.
Wow!!! I loved the rant at the end. Even if it was a bit uncontrolled, it was still AWESOME TO WATCH AND HEAR IT!!! Thank you John. You paid dearly for the work you did and continue to do. Thank you for COURAGEOUSLY CREATING CONTENT AND CONTRIBUTING TO THE STORY OF HUMANITY!!! I loved this response to Jacob. He really should NOT have posted his ignorant remarks online as he said in his own words.
When John points out that Jacob doesn’t think he’s engaging in “activism” simply because he says he’s not… I mean doesn’t that tell you everything about his epistemology?
Isn't Jacob doing what many of us exmos have done? Found information thats contrary to what we have been taught and now he's confused and is starting to perhaps doubt?
Yes, we understand the process of cognitive dissonance that Jacob is going through. For many people, it's their empathy that is behind their cognitive dissonance, whereas for Jacob, it's bigotry.
@@mormonstories I see your point but also fall to wonder about nature vs nurture. That's where I fall to have empathy and even sadly some sympathy for him.
As someone who just left the church last year it’s confusing for ME. It makes me feel gaslit and crazy that they’re being so duplicitous. Just have to focus on myself and my growth and healing and put on the blinders in a way. 😮💨
I’ll be honest the best thing you can do when you first leave the church is, sadly not even listen to podcasts on Mormonism, not listen to or read anything about what the church is doing and do your best to separate yourself from it for a while and decompress. I didn’t even know what the church was doing for several years. After I left I ignored everything that had to do with the church because it was too difficult and triggering. I hate to use that word, but it was. I’ve been out of the church for 13 years and now I can listen to this stuff and it doesn’t affect me anymore. I have no reaction to it, except to find it quite funny.
ummm.. make no mistake the Mormon church is, first and foremost, a business proposition (or so it appears)… and the ‘apostles’ never forget that the first principle of church business is… business. Businesses (and churches) respond to social and cultural demands… not the other way around.
But the issue is that their business is inherently unable to "glocalize". The optimal business solution is glocalization, i.e. serving different products for different audiences. To be concrete, they would need to serve conservative Mormonism to conservative members, and liberal Mormonism to liberal members. This works if the messaging is not centralized, but always passed through each layer in the hierarchy and then diversified. Thus, you could have conservative stakes and liberal stakes or similar. But with central messaging by broadcasting one general conference to everyone, you cannot possibly diversify your message. You send the same message to Africa, Asia, America, Europe, etc. Now the leadership has to decide which members to please and which to offend, they cannot possibly please everyone.
It's funny that a member of a church born of polygamy and polyandry is so confused and distressed by the idea of "redefining marriage ". Wasn't that Joseph Smith's main motivation for a large part of his doctrine?
Plus, Jacob is questioning the fact that church leaders are randomly changing doctrine. This is exactly what happened with polygamy. Joseph reintroduced it in the 1830s after it was a social thing in Old testament times, and then the church out of political pressure abandoned it in 1890. There is nothing more random than these changes. If the LDS Church was true, then Nelson can change whatever he likes, including gay marriage, trans rights, pronouns, female priesthood, painting temples in rainbow colors. It is a core Mormon doctrine that the prophet can arbitrarily change any doctrine. And Jacob Hansen has no authority to stop this from happening.
@@orisonorchards4251 The point is that Joseph Smith certainly was not the poster boy for a faithful monogamous marriage. Emma suffered from his secret affairs / marriages behind her back.
I don’t think Jacob is afraid of losing his power as a man or anything else like that. I bet that most of us understand his struggle with this. He either has to believe that the family proclamation to the world is true and right, or that the current actions of the leaders are right and true… and either of those options leads one to have to at least partially recognize that the so called prophets are not prophets at all. And as probably most of us know, that realization is a hard one to have.
It’s fascinating how much their doctrine keeps changing and how devout members totally justify this behavior RATHER than seeing how malicious and deceiving “moving the goal post” is to people’s mental and emotional health. That’s what cults do, that’s what narcissists do. When you’re calling out a narcissist on something they did wrong, they will NEVER own any fault/take responsibility, and they are always moving the goal posts… it is so exhausting and manipulative. It blows my mind how seemingly intelligent people don’t see it or believe it. When I left the Mormon church 8 years ago I felt the biggest weight off my shoulders. I love the nondenominational church I attend… it’s all focused on Christ, His grace and love for us and non of this “working for your salvation” crap. Ironically, the more I learn about him and become okay with owning my sins and asking for forgiveness every day, the more chilled out I’ve become. Wild. I get so worked up sometimes over the Mormon church and all their lies, behaving as if God doesn’t know what they’re doing… and then I remind myself… the Mormon church wasn’t the first and won’t be the last corporation/group of people to deceive people… God knows what they’re doing… He’s got things under control. Okay, off my soapbox now. 🫣😉💕
While i don't agree with most of Jacob's opinions, his main message is that he and most members are confused at the double speak coming from prophets. Which is valid, because there is double speak. And no matter how insensitive or harsh Jacob's opinions are, being insensitive or harsh back won't help him see a better way (backfire effect). Outside of that, I appreciated the video ❤
My thoughts exactly. I wish John would have spent less time judging Jacob, and more time realizing that Jacob's main issue wasn't hating gays - it is trying to figure out what the heck the LDS church expects him and all the members to do?? The mixed messages FROM THE TOP is the issue - homosexuality is secondary. Simply spending an hour laughing at Jacob and poking fun at him does nothing to help anyone.
@@learnenglishwithstories3571 The Brethren constantly talk out of both sides of their mouths and that hasn't seemed to bother Hansen. It's his obvious hate for members of the LGBTQ+ community and the idea that the Mormon Church may be softening its stance against them that has him, and many other members of the church, angered. The parallels between this issue and the Blacks can't be denied.
I understand why John doesnt like caffeinated John to make often appearances, but man is it therapeutic to listen to him say all the things i wish i could spew at family. This topic also fires me up as i listen to my mother deadname my niblings.
Always learning more about the Mormon Church thanks to these episodes. Just when you think it can't get any worse....Thank you to all who work to make this happen!
yeah, i highly doubt lesbian/trans girls are constantly asking her to dance. that letter made it sound like "the gays" were invading her community, when they only make up maybe 3-5% of any given population.
I watched Jacob’s video yesterday. I will have to say Jacob makes me angry anyway, but I tried to get through it. I didn’t finish it. It just brought back memories of those church members that were so backward and conditioned to believe hateful things. Like Amy’s letter-that is what my children were being conditioned to believe so I left. I wonder what he thinks about the Mormon scientist coming out with the data about trans gender and sexual orientation and being born with it.
Never Mormon and this makes me so happy. I didn't know there had been this much progress within the church on queer issues. We are all here for your righteous anger, John. You single-handedly renew my faith in boomers often.
To your point of liberal running away because of people like Jacob there will also be a running away of conservatives if the church continues to support a more liberal viewpoint ... the divide is all around, and you can not make both sides happy...
WOW, Look at all these comments... Thank you Geraldo for bringing this to our attention and Thank you MS for providing a forum for us to display our thoughts and feelings! It looks like the Church may be moving in the right direction, Jacob and Greg are just stirring up more Hate!
John’s remarks at the end are spot on. Jacob wants the LDS church to continue to be a club for straight white guys who all hate the same people… calling him out was important.
Anger is an okay emotion. If someone tells me I sound angry, I don’t take that as a criticism any more than if I sound sad or happy or worried or excited. I can be angry and still be kind, non-shaming, and professional
When I listened to it I hear someone struggling with their own sexual identity and upset that he’s doing everything that he was told to do and it’s not fair that other people are getting away with it when he’s still repressing it. I’m not saying this as a joke or anything in a negative tone….it honestly feels like this.
Apostasy, like treason, is simply a matter of dates. Also, I think you guys are being too hard on Jacob Hansen. I don’t think he’s trying to hurt anybody. He’s just trying to deal with his cognitive dissonance and disappointment that official doctrines do in fact change. I mean, he more than likely has gay and transgender friends and cares about their feelings. We all do.
THANK YOU John for putting into words what I was thinking this whole video at 1:46:00, He's attempting to hide the fact that he's being a horrible person under the guise of being "so confused". Listening to him was a serious struggle. There are a lot of good, genuine people in the church and he is absolutely not one of them. I am here for Angry John calling for justice! 😄
Damn….. the internet gonna break the Mormon church. I bet media gets banned within. The scary part is how sincere Jake is. He is deeply concerned. Unfortunately, he really does speak for the hardcore. I mean think about that for a minute.
1:44:31 Damn, John Dehlin going OFFFFF!!! 👏👏👏👏 The last minutes were so powerful. I appreciate the anger. It’s justified. And appreciated coming from an ally. 1:46:10 “If you weren’t such a bigoted jerk in the way you treat people, I would want to be kind and compassionate with you, but you’re so offensive and heinous in your level of discourse that it’s really hard to have compassion for you.” 👏👏👏 That was beautiful. So powerful.
John and Gerardo, thank you for scrambling and addressing this heinous CZcams video so quickly. I watched it this morning and was stricken by the bigotry. On the other hand, it is amusing to see people scrambling over the mixed messages coming from the nonagenarian elite.
I predict Jacob will have an opportunity in his future to experience a different perspective; such as, nieces, nephews, children or grand children. I had strong views until my perspective changed. My son is a wonderful gay man. I'm so thankful Heavenly Father opened my eyes to the LBGTQ+ community. I was so ignorant when I was young and mainly because I was indoctrinated. Gospel of Christ is Love.
John, I appreciate the honest tone and answers you are giving. You showing your hurt feelings and opinions you have are not unprofessional. Give yourself grace, someone interviewed during a Mormon stories episode wouldn’t get doxed for being emotionally. This situation, topic, and person makes you sad. The church and its double standards make me so angry. It’s because of it, some are allowed to be baptized and I was not. It makes me angry and sad that I couldn’t have it and still even wants it… You’re doing a fantastic job John always as always.
Thanks for this video I don’t pay much attention to the church since I left it! I had a hard time with finding out that the truth claims aren’t quite what I thought they were, And then I came out. Even if they change policy in the church I can’t see myself going back I have so much faith trauma from the old teachings
When investigated both sides of the church. I sometimes get burned by how the midnight Mormon scoff and trash other people so much. I love the love this channel has for people normally. John is scoffing hard today.
Thank you above all other things I said. I Love, the help you have given to all of us that struggle with our faith. You have been more helpful to me than anyone on this platform.
John, the church did approve people living together to get baptized in Chile for decades before 2004. All the rules can be bent in order to baptize more people. 31:33
40:30 I think he looks terrified with a splash of sad. His internal “requirement” and belief is that the gospel cannot change. His Mormon vail is becoming transparent and he doesn’t have the tools to deal with that. As an Utah raised Mormon I was raised to believe that foundation wouldn’t change. The church was supposed to be the steady rock in a world of chaos. Haha…it’s so great believing in myself and no longing putting my strength in the church.
Jacob showing Fear or sadness? How about betrayal? The church teaches that the church doctrine doesn’t change. Hard core prophetic teaching guys. So if you are all in, then you don’t acknowledge doctrinal changes in the past. To wake up today and all of a sudden see it, then it is a sense of betrayal. I think he is very sincere in his fear of betrayal.
Jacob is 100% correct about the hypocrisy and mixed messaging the church is sending. He’s just on the wrong side of the issue. Jacob (and all the members) are experiencing exactly what the membership experienced on race and the priesthood during the 1950’s and 1960’s. If social media existed back then, I’m certain we would be able to pull up videos reflecting the exact same feelings as the church slowly culturally changed, then finally the pressure built up enough in the membership that the “prophet” finally had a “revelation” that the change needed to be made in 1978. Make no mistake, gay temple marriage will be doctrine in the next 30 years. I was saying it 5 years ago and people thought I was insane. I say it today, just 5 years later, and many more people believe it’s a possibility. This is a pattern. Doctrine in the church changes over time to reflect culture, not the other way around. Why? Because this church isn’t led by a prophet of God, just a man doing the best he can. My question for Jacob is: When the church inevitably caves to the majority membership and allows gay marriage, will you leave the church? If so, you may as well deconstruct the entire thing now while you’re still middle aged. It’s more and more painful to deconstruct your religion the more years you’ve spent dedicating your life and money to it. Moreover, Jacob, once you do deconstruct your religion, you will discard your bigoted self-righteous worldview in the process, you discover the true meaning of empathy, and you will feel a lot of regret for the filthy public hatred you’ve displayed toward LGBTQ+ in your past.
Very well said, indeed! I’ll add, not only did members not have transparency into each other’s beliefs via social media, but historical transparency was worse by magnitudes, making prophetic infallibility a more rational paradigm. Also, queer children are generally born to straight parents whereas white couples wouldn’t just randomly birth a black child, so the queer issue touches members in a different way. It’s getting harder and harder to be ignorant. BTW, if you haven’t watched Jacob’s content before, he has stated on numerous occasions that if the Church ever accepts gay marriage he will leave. It’s a ludicrous position to take, as he simultaneously condemns people who disagree with the church now.
Wow! Dehlin is spitting angry (literally spitting and f-ing mad)! I always like to be transparent in my positions politically, religiously, socially... So, here goes nothing. I'm a 15 yr-plus Dehlin fanboy. From back in his earlier apologetic period, until now, with his current anti-LDS public persona. I guess I'm a fan of both. I've always been impressed that John has maintained all of his MS podcasts available, whether pro-LDS (early yrs) or anti-LDS (obviously latter yrs). It's all there, which is commendable. All that said, I'm still very active, and very much a believer in the LDS faith. I don't claim to "know" anything, but I do claim to believe and try to act congruently with my faith. So, this is one of the ten best MS podcasts ever in my opinion. I think both John and Gerardo knocked it out of the park on this one... Confusing? Members receiving very mixed messages from "the Lord's chosen" leaders? Yes and yes. As much or more than I can ever remember, ever. I don't pretend to have any answers, but I am waiting to see where all of this leads. I hopefully have no self-deluded notions that there must be some great, heavenly-inspired revelation about to make it all make sense and jive with nearly 200 yrs of LDS official doctrine. It's confusing. Period. And for the MANY anti-LDS, never-LDS, etc, it is possible to hold and consider two conflicting ideologies at the same time, while considering the merits (or lack thereof) of each. I've done it for decades - maybe not very well and maybe at the expense of true rigor and/or honest analysis. But this issue that's "confusing" members and very likely church leaders, feels very different to me. To some extent, I feel like I understand the critics, the faithful, and the multitude of nuanced positions at all points in between. I've historicallyl been somewhat liberal (from an LDS perspective at least) on LGBTQ issues, but this time as far as the official church stance and direction, or lack of direction, it feels like new, unchartered territory for the traditional LDS faithful. Again, saying it's confusing is the understatement of the century from a "thoughtful faith" perspective. (Apologies for the long-winded post. 5 min you'll never get back... And finally - because you're likely thinking it - is this my moment of dissonance? Probably not, but even that remains to be seen.)
I watched most of this Thoughtful Faith episode and he got the main point wrong. The trans-woman that was baptized as a woman was not just socially transitioned but had totally physically transitioned to be a woman before she investigated the church and she was up front with the church that she was a trans woman. And they let her get baptized as a woman. At that point she was a woman.
I'm having a hard time understanding the phrase "women-only spaces". Other than the mother's lounge, where is that space? Even in RS, the "priesthood" leaders in the ward are free to lecture us at any time, control our activities, etc. The Sunday lessons are just regurgitations of conference talks mostly by men. What am I missing here?
That verbal lashing at the end was stunning. Honestly it was what we all wanted to say. And amen to having Jacob on the show. The best friendships are the unlikely ones that start with a verbal lashing. Maybe. Lol. Also, the kindness shown from the bishop and the young women’s president was inspiring. 😢 it made me miss being a Latter Day Saint because it felt saintly to leave the confines of one’s restrictive beliefs to choose love and compassion.
Poor poor Jacob. Full-time gatekeeping is an exhausting job.
I never once as a TBM woman heard "women only spaces" in the LDS church. They hardly mention women at all. Period.
Probably the mother’s lounge…..crazy
Don’t forget the ward kitchens. We are welcomed and usually have no brethren in attendance!!
Let's face it, if CZcams and the internet were available in 1978, Jacob would be speaking against men of color being allowed into the priesthood. Jacob's video is a dog whistle to those like-minded to try to put the genie back into the bottle.
Agree 💯
In my former Mormon life as a Bishopric counselor, we had a transgender individual that attended our ward. She went to RS and participated. As a member of the bishopric, I heard a LOT of complaints about this person from ward members, and I know of one who stopped attending RS as a result of this woman attending. Their hate contributed to my shelf breaking.
Mormons can have a lot of hate for what goes against their beliefs.
The arrogance and pride of Mormons was definitely something on my shelf since I was a teenager.
I think it is important to point out that the "women only spaces in the church" are not spaces only for women if a man needs to sign off and agree to everything that they do.
I agree. I saw men watching over us at girls camp and in relief society. I saw men watching over us as sister missionaries.
You nailed it.
What will happen the day this woman wants to be sealed in the temple? Having been a good and faithful member after her transition, when she meets a faithful priesthood holder who wants to marry her for time and eternity? Are they going to deny that to them, just like they denied it to black people once upon a time?
@@ciskavergozgorodey8197 on condition of her baptism they said she can't go to the temple (so already a tiered system, per usual). No eternal marriage it seems
My fa ily came to the new world w most of the ship leaving the old country for religious freedom. No surprise I have several prominent mormons. The stories are not happy in the least.
My ‘Lauren’, after years of suffering with dysphoria. Depression and days of being so lost in this very cruel life. Lauren took her life 4 days before Christmas. I miss my child who was my greatest teacher. Love anyway.
😢🙏❤️
So very very sorry. This is what gets us so riled up. I embrace you from South Africa. 🌹
What a beautiful thing to spread the message of love in her name ♥
I’m so sorry. An incomprehensible tragedy.
I'm so sorry.
As a gay ex Mormon, the thought of the church being more accepting for LGBTQ people actually angers me. I would prefer if they stayed conservative. It would make my life easier. It would make it easier for me when people confront me about why I left. I would feel gaslit about how my feelings and views towards this issue against the church’s “old” or “original” view basically don’t matter anymore. It would feel like all my hard work putting up boundaries with the church and my own family would have been all for nothing bc now everyone is going to be “friendly” and “accepting” towards me? Not to mention all those queer Mormons who took their own lives back in 2015/2016 when the church made their position on homosexuality and marriage.
The only good thing I see coming out of this is that it just keep solidifying for me that their “prophets” are not real. If they were 1 they wouldn’t have an anti LGBTQ stance and 2 they wouldn’t have to keep changing their “gospel” doctrine everyone 2-3 years bc people are leaving.
Fellow gay ex-mo. I agree. I wish the church would stop playing both sides of issues. People pay attention to the side that fits them and conveniently forget the side that does not.
Just as no one can prove or disprove the existence of a divine power, no one can rule out the possibility for a divine connection through prophets.
That said, even as a kid I noticed the few-and-far-between frequency pattern of prophetic revelation in the scriptures and wondered how that harmonized with the 24-7 setup that is implied in the modern church.
As an adult who is aware of many of the colossal mistakes of modern prophets, it’s pretty easy to see that the 24-7 idea is bogus. It’s also antithetical to the church’s scriptural pattern of seeking revelation by first seeking understanding.
I can give space to a prophetic structure that seeks to take the will of the people to God for confirmation in the absence of a lightning bolt directive, and I hope that’s where we end up.
If our leaders had the humility to listen to the plight of queer members and those who can reconcile queer lifestyles with scripture, your pain and that of countless others could have been avoided. I’m sorry.
Amen 💯
This is my feelings on it as well. The future gaslighting will be astronomical just like it is with race and the priesthood.
@Maddi
Don’t worry, they aren’t actually more accepting. Their motivations for what they are doing is empty, fake, and hollow. The Lord taught that the “heart” is what matters. This means the motivation for why individuals (or a church) matter a LOT! The lds churches apparent acceptance of “lgbt people” is an attempt to make the outward cup to appear clean, because their PR people and the data indicates that if the church can make the cup appear clean this way and to these people, that the membership bleed with slow. Thats all. Thats the only motivation. The heart of these old dudes and the “heart” of the lds church if you can define that hasn’t actually changed on the inside. Christ said make the inner cup clean. The inner cup of the lds church is precisely as filthy as it’s ever been since it was founded by Brigham young. They may have changed the paint job and shined up the outside of the cup a time or two, but it’s never been the case that a person drinking from the cup won’t die. Death is still the result of drinking from the lds cup.
In a related note, my motivation for this comment was only to
help bring some comfort to you.
Caffeinated John for the win at the end!! 🎉 John- no apologies, some things are worth getting spicy over and human decency is one of those things! 🙌🏻
John, I loved to see your real and raw emotion. Don’t apologize for showing true emotions on such difficult topics
"Why is unkindness or cruelty NOT grounds for excommunication? " This question is EVERYTHING.
💯💪
Yes, but here on the video is John, seething with hatred and extremely unkind to Jacob. I wanted to hear ideas, analysis, and discussion. But this isn't disagreement, it's mostly vicious personal attack. His hate far exceeds what we see from Jacob. Do better guys!
I personally didn't feel hate from John. Anger, yes. But I think more people NEED to be a little bit angry about all the crap that's going on and stop being so ignorant. Even in the church we were taught about righteous anger and that is what I felt from John.
@shaycollier2090 I disagree. He really attacked him as a person, beyond his behaviors. Would he have confronted him that way in person? If it was really righteous anger, he totally over-did it! But really, it felt hateful to me. Would a really kind kind person talk to or about another person that way? Especially when they're obviously confused and on a difficult journey? John of all people should show more understanding and grace. It's like his experiences have made him more bitter instead of kinder.
Its always amazing how often the question of "why don't we still believe this" is asked within the membership, but never "why did we believe that in the first place?"
Such a good thought!
100%
Great point. And it's true of all religions.
🤯
Because it is God's law. That is why. Defying God's law has major consequences.
The way this Jacob guy talks is like a Mormon Tucker Carlson
I’m only 40 minutes in, but it’s clear to me that Jacob’s complaint about this transgendered woman has far less to do with maligning trans people than it is a cry for help and understanding about how the Church seems to be doing about-faces on supposedly eternal doctrines. What I hear from Jacob here is that he desperately needs the Brethren to justify their two opposing positions. Jacob’s faith in prophets and the institution of the Church hangs in the balance. This is a sign for a large rift opening up in the Church, with all sides feeling disillusioned.
I think it's equally about his confusion and maligning trans people.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️💪
this strikes a chord in me, because with many neurodivergent people we're told "if you follow the rules you'll be a good person, get good things, " then one day you're told that it's okay to break one of the rules and suddenly you're like, wait, that rule didn't matter all this time? so other people can break the rule but not me? so have I been a bad person all this time for following the rule that no longer matters?
For many of us it's already hard enough navigating society. Changing the rules throws us into chaos.
@@mormonstories You have forgotten what it is like to have your shelf begin to break. It wasn't that long ago that trans people were seen very differently than today and many things move slowly in the LDS world. He is clearly in pain and clinging to the traditional past and wondering what the heck happened to the "restored gospel". This is an opportunity to help people like him to transition. Our moral indignation doesn't help them with their moral indignation.
Hearing progressive Mormons be supported and the growth of language /dialogue makes me so happy. Growing up hearing such harmful rhetoric kept me closeted for many years and was one of my biggest issues with the gospel. Thank you Mormon stories ! ❤
Absolutely. I love Bishop Ostler, making a difference!
To a degree I can verify that the brethren live in a bubble. Working for the church for the time that I did, I was surrounded by super intelligent individuals who had much more knowledge and understanding of modern concerns and challenges the membership was facing. I watched them hire (and fire) people who thought outside the box. My primary experience working at the church office building was an exercise in duplicitous messaging and everyone was always trying to serve two masters (religious and secular). It felt impossible at times and I shed more than a few tears as I tried to dial in the messaging while being sandwiched between individuals with dramatically different thinking and perspectives. It was chaotic then and seems to only have magnified since I left. This is a fascinating episode. We’re witnessing the church breaking apart. 😮
What were seeing is bright, young, intelligent church employees trying to put out fires consistently set ablaze by old, out-of-touch “prophets.” 😊
Great to see Gerardo again!
I agree!
Love Gerardo, he is such a sweet and caring soul!
I agree! I was so happy to see him!
He is like Rico and Suave all rolled into one!
Gerardo’s podcasts are the best
I kinda feel bad for Jacob in many ways. He seems careless and pretty cruel but he has been taught to think that way his whole life in the church. I thought likr that in many ways too as a member (live in a bubble and told what to think by parents and others who are naive) even despite loving and adoring and deeply trying to understand LGBTQ people. He's a product of the institution and I think we need to leave him space for changing. This is his unraveling and deconstructing. It's a shame he's doing it publicly, but I do see someone who MAY become an ally in the future as I now am. It's the church that needs to STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE and talking out both sides their asses which I agree with Jacob on. MAKE IT STOP SCCOJCOLDS.
I agree. 20 years ago I would have been in almost exactly the same place.
Jacob is simply asking the Church to show its worst face in public so as not to confuse viewers regarding its true purpose.
The church always does the right thing, AFTER IT TRIES EVERYTHING ELSE.
This may be a wake-up call to the Brethren, who will share his anger and follow his lead.
It’s a fake letter. Jacob needs to relax
He’s basically asking the church to be honest about its teachings to the public rather than pretend to be supportive when they really aren’t.
Excellent point. Jacob has learned by MAGA and other xenophobic bigots that they can now be Loud & Proud with their Hate Mongering. Whilst, Church historically keeps bigotry on the down low.
I think perhaps the fear in Jacob’s eyes comes from the risk of losing his power as a man in a patriarchal power structure. His own self importance and control is being challenged.
Absolutely!
Notice this baptism was a WOMAN! The church couldn’t care less about women. No threat to the power structure
in addition, i think the fear is he doesn’t want to be proven wrong, since he wants to be the Jordan Peterson of mormonism.
his ego is too large for him to take an L.
My thoughts exactly.
Not quite that. It's more a vulnerability feeling where they go from believing that the Brehthren are unchanging as God is unchanging to things now being confusing because they see that they are not unchanging. Where that leads a person is unpredictable. In the meantime it's an item put up on his shelf.
You know things are getting way out of control when John exasperatingly starts making comments like...
"what the fetch is going on?"😀
The key word there is "fetch". If he keeps this up, "fetch" WILL happen!
On a lighter note, I am glad that John is single-handedly keeping fetch alive in the 2020s.
@@aBrewster29 Gretchen Weiners would be so proud!
FR! He is p’d off! lol, as he should be though! It does touch him personally
To comment more on the subject as a whole, as an evangelical Christian, the mormon church always does this. They’ve been doing it since its inception. (And John just said it as I was typing 42:04).
Because it’s not a church and its doctrine isn’t and hasn’t ever been sound.
”And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Matthew 7:26-27 ESV
Whenever it has been forced to move socially, it always chooses to. The Protestant church has in some respects but without a central authority and hierarchical structure, splitting over issues or finding another church isn’t a problem. Hierarchical religion does not work. There is no intermediary between you and God. Not Joseph’s Myth, not a pope, not a priest, not a bishop, not Mary mother of Jesus.
As bigoted as Hansen is… he is correct in that members are confused. By moving the direction of being LGBTQ friendly, it theoretically destroys any thought of these leaders being prophets. This can cause a divide, create 2 religions, or people will leave in droves. The church is in a lose-lose situation, and I’m all for it.
So you really hate the Mormon church huh ? The church has problems, but they’ve done a lot of good too… I don’t know, I don’t think the collapse is a good thing … maybe I’m not getting your comment ?
Splitting of churches to more liberal and conservative churches has happend elsewhere as well. Usually the conservative churches in Europe end up being much smaller than liberal ones and they often shrink over time.
@@emppulinaIt is much more challenging for the LDS Church which has a line of prophets. Protestant churches can simply split based on doctrine, because there is no necessary lineage, as they are "Sola scriptura", based on the Bible alone. But for the LDS Church, you would need to have a person with some kind of credibility to become an alternative prophet. E.g. Nelson and Oaks splitting up might work, Uchtorf splitting off might work, but Jacob Hansen trying to found his own church will certainly not work. Alternatives would be liberal members converting to the community of Christ. Conservative members usually have no haven, as most of these havens involve polygamy. The only current alternative is Denver Snuffer, but even his influence is limited.
I agree Mormons are confused and I believe, as a former believing and confused Mormon😄 , they have ALWAYS been confused. Most of the time it's smaller potatoes type stuff but every now and then it is something central to their doctrine. This LGBTQ confusion has been brewing for a long time and it is largely due to Mormon leadership having no idea what they've been talking about for decades.
One thing I personally am not confused about one bit, I don't feel bad for Jacob Hansen at all 😂
How is he bigoted? I don't understand that criticism. He was just explaining doctrine vs. practice. I don't think you can judge someone like that from one video anyway. Jeez!
This is fantastic. Jacob is both in full apostacy and in a deep state of cognitive dissonance. Hey Jacob, this is just the continuing restoration.
🤣😂👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I love it when John gets all upset and shouts. It shows true sincere passion. ❤ Why is this church (sect) all in everyone’s life? The Gospel is simple, love God, love your neighbor. It’s not regulate your neighbor.
💯💪
Well said, listening to this, I had no words. Your last sentence is truth. The Gospel IS simple. LOVE!
How doe shouting show true sincere passion? And how would you define love God, and love your neighbor? What does Love look like?
@@sammiller4321 Because you can hear the sincerity and passion in his voice, so you know he is sincere. As to the second, Jesus said you will know this by the works that he does, so how you treat others and your neighbor shows your love.
It seems the church is treating trans folks the way they used to treat black folks. Deny them the priesthood, deny them access to the temple. I wonder if the church still expects them pay tithing?
I had a friend tell me years ago that the Church would need to change their stance on LGBTQ people.I recall telling her they never would.But now they are changing,I stepped away some 4 years ago,now Iwillremove my membership. The Lord does not make mistakes.!
Pretty soon blacks will receive the priesthood!
We’ve been so groomed to not be angry. We don’t need to apologize for anger especially when things are unjust or hurtful.
💯💪
I so appreciate Gerardo's knowledge and perspective.
My first thought when you asked, was also clearly DISGUST.
BTW, this never-Mormon would never watch if not for your anger, John. It proves your integrity. ❤
(Then again, the first time dude's face flashed on-screen, my immediate thought was "latent homosexual". Sadly, they are often the biggest haters.)
Argh! My ❤️ was rescinded! 😭👻
I feel conflicted on this. Part of me feels so much happiness for positive changes in the church. However, there is also part of me that feels so gaslit. Feeling gaslit is really upsetting to me.
The church has hurt so many people over the years. When they come around 30 years late it feels phony and they don’t ever try to repair the damage they’ve done in the past.
It's just jaws flappin' until real changes happen.
Exactly I agree entirely. Soon they will say they always supported LGBTQ marriage etc. uuugh.
@@ecoquilting7077 they are waiting for more of the elderly members to pass away so they don’t have to upset so many of their customer base.
Even if real change does happen I can't help but feel like it's just a numbers game. Everyone knows that the numbers mean $$
Educate yourself! Yes, yes, yes.
Glad to see caffeinated John 😅 stay angry. Bigotry and hate is something to be rightfully angry about.
Jacob’s bigotry is becoming more and more apparent. He was borderline unhinged in this video.
Love caffeinated John! This dichotomy may split the church in two. MAGA Mormons will not stand for such progressive changes. Oh, Mormon Church, you in trouble, girl.
Would it surprise you to know there are Conservative exmo’s?
@@boysrus61I’m one of them. I’m a conservative exmo, but since leaving, I have become liberal on social issues. Yeah, grouping into MAGA Mormons is not the right way to go about this. Would I vote trump over biden? Hell yeah. Am I for gay and trans rights? Hell yeah. We can coexist without the labels.
I am totally here for caffinated John!❤
@@boysrus61I'm aware there are conservative exmos, but I'm talking about those who are 100 percent behind Trump, who is staunchly anti-trans rights.
@@kristivaldez5815By now I've heard several Exmos state that a large majority of Mormons are politically conservative. The church doomsday stuff is like Play-Doh for the MAGA manipulative fearmongers. It can all be bundled into one big world of fear. Just like the church leaders keep changing policy to keep members (and the tithe money) from leaving, the GOP keeps changing what they're feeding the base. It's really stark in the abortion area-- just a few years back it was "women can have any career they want!", now they are up there at the young conservatives conference telling young women that the best thing they can do for the cause is be good wives and "have babies!" That's damage control due to Trump killing Roe v Wade, trying to convince women it's the divine plan to put all of the rights in the hands of people with different body parts.
Wow!!! I loved the rant at the end. Even if it was a bit uncontrolled, it was still AWESOME TO WATCH AND HEAR IT!!!
Thank you John. You paid dearly for the work you did and continue to do. Thank you for COURAGEOUSLY CREATING CONTENT AND CONTRIBUTING TO THE STORY OF HUMANITY!!!
I loved this response to Jacob. He really should NOT have posted his ignorant remarks online as he said in his own words.
What you're witnessing is the first presidency thinking tactically.
When John points out that Jacob doesn’t think he’s engaging in “activism” simply because he says he’s not… I mean doesn’t that tell you everything about his epistemology?
Isn't Jacob doing what many of us exmos have done? Found information thats contrary to what we have been taught and now he's confused and is starting to perhaps doubt?
Yes, we understand the process of cognitive dissonance that Jacob is going through.
For many people, it's their empathy that is behind their cognitive dissonance, whereas for Jacob, it's bigotry.
@@mormonstories I see your point but also fall to wonder about nature vs nurture. That's where I fall to have empathy and even sadly some sympathy for him.
Yep!
Wow John, what an unbelievably powerful message. EVERYONE in the church needs to hear your epilogue. 110% POWERFUL stuff.
Loved seeing John’s passion for this topic 😭
As someone who just left the church last year it’s confusing for ME. It makes me feel gaslit and crazy that they’re being so duplicitous. Just have to focus on myself and my growth and healing and put on the blinders in a way. 😮💨
I’ll be honest the best thing you can do when you first leave the church is, sadly not even listen to podcasts on Mormonism, not listen to or read anything about what the church is doing and do your best to separate yourself from it for a while and decompress. I didn’t even know what the church was doing for several years. After I left I ignored everything that had to do with the church because it was too difficult and triggering. I hate to use that word, but it was. I’ve been out of the church for 13 years and now I can listen to this stuff and it doesn’t affect me anymore. I have no reaction to it, except to find it quite funny.
💯💪
ummm.. make no mistake the Mormon church is, first and foremost, a business proposition (or so it appears)… and the ‘apostles’ never forget that the first principle of church business is… business. Businesses (and churches) respond to social and cultural demands… not the other way around.
But the issue is that their business is inherently unable to "glocalize". The optimal business solution is glocalization, i.e. serving different products for different audiences. To be concrete, they would need to serve conservative Mormonism to conservative members, and liberal Mormonism to liberal members. This works if the messaging is not centralized, but always passed through each layer in the hierarchy and then diversified. Thus, you could have conservative stakes and liberal stakes or similar. But with central messaging by broadcasting one general conference to everyone, you cannot possibly diversify your message. You send the same message to Africa, Asia, America, Europe, etc. Now the leadership has to decide which members to please and which to offend, they cannot possibly please everyone.
💯💪
It's funny that a member of a church born of polygamy and polyandry is so confused and distressed by the idea of "redefining marriage ". Wasn't that Joseph Smith's main motivation for a large part of his doctrine?
Plus, Jacob is questioning the fact that church leaders are randomly changing doctrine. This is exactly what happened with polygamy. Joseph reintroduced it in the 1830s after it was a social thing in Old testament times, and then the church out of political pressure abandoned it in 1890. There is nothing more random than these changes. If the LDS Church was true, then Nelson can change whatever he likes, including gay marriage, trans rights, pronouns, female priesthood, painting temples in rainbow colors. It is a core Mormon doctrine that the prophet can arbitrarily change any doctrine. And Jacob Hansen has no authority to stop this from happening.
The difference is who occupies the position of power. In polygamy, men reign supreme. Women and children must submit and obey.
@@orisonorchards4251 The point is that Joseph Smith certainly was not the poster boy for a faithful monogamous marriage. Emma suffered from his secret affairs / marriages behind her back.
Guys! The Emperor has no clothes on! He's NAKED!!!
@afwalker1921: What about the Emperor's GARMIES!?
Thanks for being on for this one, Gerardo
I don’t think Jacob is afraid of losing his power as a man or anything else like that.
I bet that most of us understand his struggle with this. He either has to believe that the family proclamation to the world is true and right, or that the current actions of the leaders are right and true… and either of those options leads one to have to at least partially recognize that the so called prophets are not prophets at all. And as probably most of us know, that realization is a hard one to have.
I for one really appreciate John expressing anger at Jacob and bigots like him 👏👏👏
I’ve been waiting for this John to come back, this is what drew me to Mormon stories in the first place.
Wow, I am here for feisty John.
💯
It’s fascinating how much their doctrine keeps changing and how devout members totally justify this behavior RATHER than seeing how malicious and deceiving “moving the goal post” is to people’s mental and emotional health. That’s what cults do, that’s what narcissists do. When you’re calling out a narcissist on something they did wrong, they will NEVER own any fault/take responsibility, and they are always moving the goal posts… it is so exhausting and manipulative. It blows my mind how seemingly intelligent people don’t see it or believe it.
When I left the Mormon church 8 years ago I felt the biggest weight off my shoulders. I love the nondenominational church I attend… it’s all focused on Christ, His grace and love for us and non of this “working for your salvation” crap. Ironically, the more I learn about him and become okay with owning my sins and asking for forgiveness every day, the more chilled out I’ve become. Wild. I get so worked up sometimes over the Mormon church and all their lies, behaving as if God doesn’t know what they’re doing… and then I remind myself… the Mormon church wasn’t the first and won’t be the last corporation/group of people to deceive people… God knows what they’re doing… He’s got things under control.
Okay, off my soapbox now. 🫣😉💕
While i don't agree with most of Jacob's opinions, his main message is that he and most members are confused at the double speak coming from prophets. Which is valid, because there is double speak.
And no matter how insensitive or harsh Jacob's opinions are, being insensitive or harsh back won't help him see a better way (backfire effect).
Outside of that, I appreciated the video ❤
My thoughts exactly. I wish John would have spent less time judging Jacob, and more time realizing that Jacob's main issue wasn't hating gays - it is trying to figure out what the heck the LDS church expects him and all the members to do?? The mixed messages FROM THE TOP is the issue - homosexuality is secondary.
Simply spending an hour laughing at Jacob and poking fun at him does nothing to help anyone.
@@learnenglishwithstories3571 The Brethren constantly talk out of both sides of their mouths and that hasn't seemed to bother Hansen. It's his obvious hate for members of the LGBTQ+ community and the idea that the Mormon Church may be softening its stance against them that has him, and many other members of the church, angered. The parallels between this issue and the Blacks can't be denied.
Your anger is valid, John. Stay angry. Some things deserve that rage.
It's ok to be "confused" Just don't act on it. Mormonism 101
💯
I understand why John doesnt like caffeinated John to make often appearances, but man is it therapeutic to listen to him say all the things i wish i could spew at family.
This topic also fires me up as i listen to my mother deadname my niblings.
Always learning more about the Mormon Church thanks to these episodes. Just when you think it can't get any worse....Thank you to all who work to make this happen!
Thank you for this amazing podcast. I loved John’s speech at the end! Perfect!
I love caffeinated John. "I'm trying to be like Jesus today." -John Dehlin ❤️❤️❤️
My god, that "girl's" letter from Oaks' talk was so Molly Mormon, woe is me, whiny persecutions complex, cringe. Gross.
yeah, i highly doubt lesbian/trans girls are constantly asking her to dance. that letter made it sound like "the gays" were invading her community, when they only make up maybe 3-5% of any given population.
I loved that closing by John. Wow wow.... well said.
I watched Jacob’s video yesterday. I will have to say Jacob makes me angry anyway, but I tried to get through it. I didn’t finish it. It just brought back memories of those church members that were so backward and conditioned to believe hateful things. Like Amy’s letter-that is what my children were being conditioned to believe so I left. I wonder what he thinks about the Mormon scientist coming out with the data about trans gender and sexual orientation and being born with it.
Hi Gerardo. Miss your voice in these topics. Keep on doing your thing.
Never Mormon and this makes me so happy. I didn't know there had been this much progress within the church on queer issues. We are all here for your righteous anger, John. You single-handedly renew my faith in boomers often.
John is about ten years too young to be a boomer
The confusion, mixed messages, and inconsistencies on LGBT will continue for decades until its no longer tenable.
As a queer person of Color (not quite) ex-member I'm glad to see Gerardo back. You bring such good perspectives, brother!
To your point of liberal running away because of people like Jacob there will also be a running away of conservatives if the church continues to support a more liberal viewpoint ... the divide is all around, and you can not make both sides happy...
WOW, Look at all these comments... Thank you Geraldo for bringing this to our attention and Thank you MS for providing a forum for us to display our thoughts and feelings!
It looks like the Church may be moving in the right direction, Jacob and Greg are just stirring up more Hate!
No, TBMs are not aware of all the doctrinal changes that the Church as gone through.
“Confused” = I hate this and am afraid of people who are different than me.
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John’s remarks at the end are spot on. Jacob wants the LDS church to continue to be a club for straight white guys who all hate the same people… calling him out was important.
Anger is an okay emotion. If someone tells me I sound angry, I don’t take that as a criticism any more than if I sound sad or happy or worried or excited. I can be angry and still be kind, non-shaming, and professional
YOU GO JOHN!! ❤️
No apologies necessary!
When I listened to it I hear someone struggling with their own sexual identity and upset that he’s doing everything that he was told to do and it’s not fair that other people are getting away with it when he’s still repressing it. I’m not saying this as a joke or anything in a negative tone….it honestly feels like this.
Exactly!!!!! 100%!! He is gay!
You’ve brought abt a really good point!!!
He very frequently mentions masterbation… in fact I don’t remember an episode. 😮
Apostasy, like treason, is simply a matter of dates. Also, I think you guys are being too hard on Jacob Hansen. I don’t think he’s trying to hurt anybody. He’s just trying to deal with his cognitive dissonance and disappointment that official doctrines do in fact change. I mean, he more than likely has gay and transgender friends and cares about their feelings. We all do.
THANK YOU John for putting into words what I was thinking this whole video at 1:46:00, He's attempting to hide the fact that he's being a horrible person under the guise of being "so confused". Listening to him was a serious struggle. There are a lot of good, genuine people in the church and he is absolutely not one of them. I am here for Angry John calling for justice! 😄
He is confused from all the contradictions and is questioning the churches authenticity, or truthfulness. Thats what i think.
Damn….. the internet gonna break the Mormon church. I bet media gets banned within. The scary part is how sincere Jake is. He is deeply concerned. Unfortunately, he really does speak for the hardcore. I mean think about that for a minute.
John, your final statement was not a rant,it was wonderful.thank you
1:44:31 Damn, John Dehlin going OFFFFF!!! 👏👏👏👏 The last minutes were so powerful. I appreciate the anger. It’s justified. And appreciated coming from an ally.
1:46:10 “If you weren’t such a bigoted jerk in the way you treat people, I would want to be kind and compassionate with you, but you’re so offensive and heinous in your level of discourse that it’s really hard to have compassion for you.” 👏👏👏 That was beautiful. So powerful.
John thanks for the epic rant at 1:45:00 so epic!!
GO JOHN! PREACH! Brilliant Sir!
John and Gerardo, thank you for scrambling and addressing this heinous CZcams video so quickly. I watched it this morning and was stricken by the bigotry. On the other hand, it is amusing to see people scrambling over the mixed messages coming from the nonagenarian elite.
Thanks Rod for pointing this out!!
Yeah, the nonagenarian elite speak and all these "little people" scramble all over the place. 💯
I predict Jacob will have an opportunity in his future to experience a different perspective; such as, nieces, nephews, children or grand children. I had strong views until my perspective changed. My son is a wonderful gay man. I'm so thankful Heavenly Father opened my eyes to the LBGTQ+ community. I was so ignorant when I was young and mainly because I was indoctrinated. Gospel of Christ is Love.
John, I appreciate the honest tone and answers you are giving. You showing your hurt feelings and opinions you have are not unprofessional. Give yourself grace, someone interviewed during a Mormon stories episode wouldn’t get doxed for being emotionally. This situation, topic, and person makes you sad.
The church and its double standards make me so angry. It’s because of it, some are allowed to be baptized and I was not. It makes me angry and sad that I couldn’t have it and still even wants it…
You’re doing a fantastic job John always as always.
Thanks for this video I don’t pay much attention to the church since I left it! I had a hard time with finding out that the truth claims aren’t quite what I thought they were, And then I came out. Even if they change policy in the church I can’t see myself going back I have so much faith trauma from the old teachings
When investigated both sides of the church. I sometimes get burned by how the midnight Mormon scoff and trash other people so much. I love the love this channel has for people normally. John is scoffing hard today.
Sorry
Thank you above all other things I said. I Love, the help you have given to all of us that struggle with our faith. You have been more helpful to me than anyone on this platform.
SOMEONE CLIP THAT RANT NOW
How did a 16 year old find the address to send President Oaks a letter? I can’t find any of the brethren’s addresses to send a letter to.
Richard Osler wow that was a great interview with the Transgender Lady. Surprisingly kind and affirming.
I am a progressive mormon and welcome the church (maybe) coming into the 21st century. Lets go have some coffee.
John, the church did approve people living together to get baptized in Chile for decades before 2004. All the rules can be bent in order to baptize more people. 31:33
I served in Chile in 2012-2013 and heard many stories from that time
40:30 I think he looks terrified with a splash of sad. His internal “requirement” and belief is that the gospel cannot change. His Mormon vail is becoming transparent and he doesn’t have the tools to deal with that. As an Utah raised Mormon I was raised to believe that foundation wouldn’t change. The church was supposed to be the steady rock in a world of chaos.
Haha…it’s so great believing in myself and no longing putting my strength in the church.
Jacob showing Fear or sadness? How about betrayal? The church teaches that the church doctrine doesn’t change. Hard core prophetic teaching guys. So if you are all in, then you don’t acknowledge doctrinal changes in the past. To wake up today and all of a sudden see it, then it is a sense of betrayal. I think he is very sincere in his fear of betrayal.
Good point.
As Jacob Hansen now is, John Dehlin once was. As John Dehlin now is, Jacob Hansen may be. He surely is on his way out.
You'd think John would have more compassion for him.
Jacob is 100% correct about the hypocrisy and mixed messaging the church is sending. He’s just on the wrong side of the issue.
Jacob (and all the members) are experiencing exactly what the membership experienced on race and the priesthood during the 1950’s and 1960’s. If social media existed back then, I’m certain we would be able to pull up videos reflecting the exact same feelings as the church slowly culturally changed, then finally the pressure built up enough in the membership that the “prophet” finally had a “revelation” that the change needed to be made in 1978.
Make no mistake, gay temple marriage will be doctrine in the next 30 years. I was saying it 5 years ago and people thought I was insane. I say it today, just 5 years later, and many more people believe it’s a possibility. This is a pattern. Doctrine in the church changes over time to reflect culture, not the other way around. Why? Because this church isn’t led by a prophet of God, just a man doing the best he can.
My question for Jacob is: When the church inevitably caves to the majority membership and allows gay marriage, will you leave the church? If so, you may as well deconstruct the entire thing now while you’re still middle aged. It’s more and more painful to deconstruct your religion the more years you’ve spent dedicating your life and money to it.
Moreover, Jacob, once you do deconstruct your religion, you will discard your bigoted self-righteous worldview in the process, you discover the true meaning of empathy, and you will feel a lot of regret for the filthy public hatred you’ve displayed toward LGBTQ+ in your past.
👏👏👏
Very well said, indeed! I’ll add, not only did members not have transparency into each other’s beliefs via social media, but historical transparency was worse by magnitudes, making prophetic infallibility a more rational paradigm. Also, queer children are generally born to straight parents whereas white couples wouldn’t just randomly birth a black child, so the queer issue touches members in a different way. It’s getting harder and harder to be ignorant.
BTW, if you haven’t watched Jacob’s content before, he has stated on numerous occasions that if the Church ever accepts gay marriage he will leave. It’s a ludicrous position to take, as he simultaneously condemns people who disagree with the church now.
Wow! Dehlin is spitting angry (literally spitting and f-ing mad)! I always like to be transparent in my positions politically, religiously, socially... So, here goes nothing. I'm a 15 yr-plus Dehlin fanboy. From back in his earlier apologetic period, until now, with his current anti-LDS public persona. I guess I'm a fan of both. I've always been impressed that John has maintained all of his MS podcasts available, whether pro-LDS (early yrs) or anti-LDS (obviously latter yrs). It's all there, which is commendable. All that said, I'm still very active, and very much a believer in the LDS faith. I don't claim to "know" anything, but I do claim to believe and try to act congruently with my faith. So, this is one of the ten best MS podcasts ever in my opinion. I think both John and Gerardo knocked it out of the park on this one... Confusing? Members receiving very mixed messages from "the Lord's chosen" leaders? Yes and yes. As much or more than I can ever remember, ever. I don't pretend to have any answers, but I am waiting to see where all of this leads. I hopefully have no self-deluded notions that there must be some great, heavenly-inspired revelation about to make it all make sense and jive with nearly 200 yrs of LDS official doctrine. It's confusing. Period. And for the MANY anti-LDS, never-LDS, etc, it is possible to hold and consider two conflicting ideologies at the same time, while considering the merits (or lack thereof) of each. I've done it for decades - maybe not very well and maybe at the expense of true rigor and/or honest analysis. But this issue that's "confusing" members and very likely church leaders, feels very different to me. To some extent, I feel like I understand the critics, the faithful, and the multitude of nuanced positions at all points in between. I've historicallyl been somewhat liberal (from an LDS perspective at least) on LGBTQ issues, but this time as far as the official church stance and direction, or lack of direction, it feels like new, unchartered territory for the traditional LDS faithful. Again, saying it's confusing is the understatement of the century from a "thoughtful faith" perspective. (Apologies for the long-winded post. 5 min you'll never get back... And finally - because you're likely thinking it - is this my moment of dissonance? Probably not, but even that remains to be seen.)
🙏❤️
I watched most of this Thoughtful Faith episode and he got the main point wrong. The trans-woman that was baptized as a woman was not just socially transitioned but had totally physically transitioned to be a woman before she investigated the church and she was up front with the church that she was a trans woman. And they let her get baptized as a woman. At that point she was a woman.
I'm having a hard time understanding the phrase "women-only spaces". Other than the mother's lounge, where is that space? Even in RS, the "priesthood" leaders in the ward are free to lecture us at any time, control our activities, etc. The Sunday lessons are just regurgitations of conference talks mostly by men. What am I missing here?
political and religious values are different sides of the same coin
Mic drop John! Thank you for being a force of an ally!
Follow the money
1)The church has be loosing money and students at byu for MANY reasons.
2) tiths totally declining
3) anyone want to list more?
That verbal lashing at the end was stunning. Honestly it was what we all wanted to say. And amen to having Jacob on the show. The best friendships are the unlikely ones that start with a verbal lashing. Maybe. Lol. Also, the kindness shown from the bishop and the young women’s president was inspiring. 😢 it made me miss being a Latter Day Saint because it felt saintly to leave the confines of one’s restrictive beliefs to choose love and compassion.
Yesssss
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