There are a lot of comments saying "name and shame" and I want to clarify something: We all signed NDAs and there's a chance for massive career fallout. Most of us working in this industry have spent a good decade or more honing our craft and at least another decade to build a sustainable career. To say we should "name and shame", to put that on our shoulders, implying we're cowards or part of the problem if we don't, is incredibly shortsighted. You're basically asking us to potentially destroy our careers and everything we've worked for, and make ourselves liable to aggressive lawsuits that could financially ruin us forever. It's a little insulting to expect all these people to just risk everything. It's easy to say if you yourself have nothing to lose and no skin in the game. The impact on those employing ghosts would be minor if non-existent but the impact on the current or former ghosts would be devastating. There's a power imbalance that doesn't get solved over night.
That's just internet bloodthirsty trolls... you can't name shame if you want to have your place in this industry. You can shame them in the act, but not publicly. It's always a question of "acceptance"... if you agree to go along, you have to go along all the way. My issue is that people should not agree. And if you're tricked into it, fight it. See my other comments down there about payment upfront, recording all your conversations for leverage, etc...
About 15 years ago I formed a plan to move from software engineering into media scoring. As I executed the first several years of this plan, my extended family inevitably heard me discussing it and it turns out that one of the most successful, most well-known orchestrators in the industry - who is also a stellar composer in their own right - is a close personal friend and creative partner of a cousin of mine. At first this was wildly encouraging, but then I started hearing first-hand accounts of the horror stories that abound in this area. Given the stature of this individual, and the nature of the injustices I was hearing about that apparently go on even at THAT level, it slowly became clear that what I was shooting for was either not going to be feasible at mid-life, or that minimally it would be even more stressful than what I was already doing. I ended up dropping the whole idea. Recently, now having retired, I've renewed interest in this area, but pursue it purely for my own personal enjoyment and enrichment (and by the way, Anne, your channel has been a great resource in that regard!). Sadly, these situations appear to be prevalent in every industry - certainly in high tech (which was part of my motivation for moving on). I suppose if our academic institutions keep churning out one generation after another containing a critical mass of narcissistic sociopaths, this problem is only going to get worse.
I have a lot of things I want to say but I'll condense them all down: We need more people like you, you're a good one. Not just in the arts, but EVERYWHERE. Pease continue your series of talking about all of the things no one is supposed to talk about. The only way our generation wins is if we do away with all of the taboos that were only put in place to take advantage of people.
I am so sorry that you had to deal with so many insecure individuals, and I appreciate you being so courageous, kind, and generous with your expertise. You are admirable.
After watching this video, I just don't ever want to work in Film Scoring, and just work in my own projects. Thanks for sharing with us your personal experience, Anne. Fuerte abrazo desde México.
Ann, as usual you make valid points and say things EXACTLY as they are. My career the last 4-5 years has been more or less what you describe in your video. I pretty much do all the variations of co writing, ghosting, writing for no credit with cue sheet...without...you name it. My cues too were sometimes chosen over the lead composer's...bringing me joy and sadness at the same time. You know what really amazes me? a few of these A list composers (who have big teams on their payroll) are going around social media saying that composers should form a union. They say things like 'it's about time we unionized' and 'composers have rights too'...ALL fine and dandy in principle but in reality those composers are the reason why a union for composers will never happen. They can't be employers and employees at the same time. A union exists to safeguard employees' rights NOT the employers. Here the irony is even bigger because these composers are actually shitty employers (as you so eloquently describe) and yet they parade around waving the 'let's form a union' flag. A union of what...millionaires?!! Who is going to protect the ghosts and the invisible ones? who is going to give credit where credit is due? who is going to share an award at the ceremony?
It's such a mindboggling concept to me. I talk about this a lot with other colleagues and no one can really make sense of some of these people. I wonder if they can see their own hypocrisy or if they just simply lack self-awareness. The mystery continues...
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I'd say that it's hypocrisy for the most part. They KNOW that what they do is unethical and trust me if they could pay people even less AND treat them they shittier they would. It's typical greedy employer mentality...same as having minimum wage in other jobs...if minimum wage wasn't the law, the employers would pay less than that for sure. As you saw from the discussion at Perspective, even composers have wildly different opinions about it... see you in November !
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Indeed, that is a problem of self-awareness, because people who are so hypocritical can't tell the truth from lies, fact from fiction, right from wrong. Living a lie like this blinds them to the moral evil they are guilty of. And that is the problem with such hypocritical bastards. Much as grandiloquent this may sound, the truth sets us free also in the sense that it allows us to see what wrongs we really do. It all starts with lying to yourself - such people first need to convince themselves that what they are doing is just ok, and in so they blind themselves to what they are in fact doing. Then they just ensnare you, and if you agree to play along, that just consolidates their "lie." Sadly for the trade, you can be a musically gifted, artistically sensitive, but mendacious and mean-spirited human being. A painful bubble burst to me!
I took a ghost writting gig a few months ago and it was some of the most humilliating times of my life. a composer got hired for a project, couldn't do half of what he promissed and got me to do it for him. He came up to me with a deal and then changed it in the middle of our time working together, gave me confusing, messed up deadlines, kept all the credits and passive income, and eventually got verbally abusive, not to mention giving me a hard time to get the paid. It really sucks to see my music being credited to someone else. Hope I never have to do it again. The company that hired him paid a lot and I got extremely underpaid. We both got screwed up pretty bad. I have saved all our conversations, including where he mentions "ghostwriting" by name and where he talks trash about the company. I wonder if I could do something about it without getting in trouble.
I just created this account to comment on the video. There is no way I'm talking about this stuff on my real account. Tough to say how much he got. I estimate at least a few thousand dollars for the whole deal. Maybe tens, plus a bunch of great exposure by the company. I got a few houndreds.
@@richalves3965 The whole point of Ghostwriting is your supposed to be a ghost, I can’t say for sure but it’s more than likely a breach of confidentially contract if you whistle blow, also there’s a chance you could get in shit for defamation as the guy you ghost wrote for ain’t gonna be happy when people find out he’s not as good as people think he is
@@richalves3965 there is also the danger of reputational damage. If people see you as being awkward to work with (which might in reality simply you standing up for your rights, being assertive) then you won't get hired because of that reputation
I feel your pain =( In the end, after studying arrangement and orchestration through UCLA Ext, I decided to pursue a different career because the contacts I made with the professionals who taught the classes, expected their students to ghostwrite without pay or credit to "gain experience". It may be different now, but I have a successful career in tech that pays much better, and enabled me to write what I want and retain full ownership! I'm glad you made it to a place where you don't have to accept those jobs anymore. 🙂
I don't know how you were able to put up with all of this, I wouldn't, I would had come back to my homecountry, I am however very happy that there're still people like you that decide to not perpetuate and actually be fair with the team, you truly are a gem Anne.
Wow so this is real. When I was at CALARTS for music composition, a fellow composer told me this has happened before with a famous film Composer. I am ashamed to even say his name because the Composer is a LEGEND. I have no proof so I will NOT say his name, however he is a great legendary film composer. This was in 1983 when I was a student composer. I was shocked, now I hear this was probably true. I am still writing my music and now along with screenwriting. I will continue to enjoy your videos. I am now a 29 time Award winning screenwriter, a guy I know wanted me to develop a TV Character without paying me. So I stated how about 4k, "Oh now I will not hire you" He wanted a character, and I am one who must write the script to develop the work, the character so I just accepted that "he most likely" would not hire me as a writer anyway.
Thank you for bringing this up! This is a topic that needs to be addressed and like nobody talks about it (maybe too scared?). So thanks a lot for speaking up because honestly Hollywood is a very toxic environment. When I heard your personal experiences I truly felt so sorry you had to go through this... Hope now you're receiving all the credits and merits you deserve because I genuinely think that you're an amazing composer and orchestrator!
That was almost painful to watch, it's disgusting how such practices are so commonplace. You touch on it briefly but, how much of this problem you think ties into the oversaturation of the market problem? People willing to do whatever it takes to get a foot in the door or be in someone's good books. Cause by the looks of it it looks like it doesn't only affect entry level people (with entry level skills) but fully fledged professionals as well (I mean if someone's capable of scoring successfully a whole show or film back to back they are professional level). Beyond the cheating you mentioned, would you say the particularities that applied to you are the norm (such as immigration status, economic problems etc)? Or has it more to do with an inbalance between supply and demmand of workforce (oversaturation)? At any rate huge thanks for bringing up topics like these. The world definitely needs to hear about them.
@@superblondeDotOrg wow that's insane! But I guess it 'makes sense' for those people to say that if they're willing to put up with all that in the first place. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure none of them liked that situation in the least, but chances are if they had spoken up against it they might have got balcklisted in some way. It's so sad, I remember starting to 'work' many years ago for one of my former teachers, who was a ghostwritter himself (which I guess made me the ultimate ghostwriter) and thinking what the hell is this? I dropped it after a couple of weeks. The number of people out there must be truly insane. A video editor I know told me that after posting on one of those filmcomposer Facebook groups that he was looking for a composer for his zero budget first short film, he had around 100 people message him in the first 24h. Bonkers!
At 20 minutes: that is true under the US Copyright Act as well! Unless you sign a written release or work for hire agreement or copyright assignment, you are still the copyright owner.
Yes! I wasn't even aware at the time until I was contacted by a European production that had gotten wind of me and other people having been ghosts on one of their productions. So they had to track down everyone and get release forms signed. In the process of doing that they explained the legal situation to us and I was like "Oh so... I still own all of that music then?"
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer LOL, oopsie. Did you ask to get at least get imdb credit if the movie wasn't released yet? Stuff like this probably don't help the career of the composer-in-charge (he's essentially creating a legal timebomb for the whole production - what if anyone had refused to sign?)
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” Hunter S Thompson Thank You very brave for doing this congrats !
oh my dear Anne, I enjoyed your rant and the stories a lot about shame, hilarious moments and exploitation. The problem usually starts with young composers who agree on bad deals but as you also mention, sometimes it's the only way in and this is also how the business works. Keep it up and where is that platform of ghostwriters educating each other?
A-KD spilling the tea! I admire your bravery and your honesty in bringing this “little dirty secret” out into the open. You didn’t name names, but you really didn’t have to. We have all heard the rumors. You are a star and your recognition will come!
This happened to me with a guy from Brazil living in L.A., he is used to hire "Arrangers" to do his work and credited those people as Arrangers when they have done the majority of the music really, he wanted to give me some very bad mock ups he have done for the different scenes and not tell me anything about the movie, the scene, the characters, nothing, I asked him several times what was that he wanted for the scene, how he wanted it to sound, anything, he just ignored my messages and the other guy that was like the music supervisor or something and also he was a friend of this "composer" (both of them where from Brazil) was the one answering the emails and telling me "oh when you hear the tracks all the answers to your questions will be clear", I mean, what? He wanted me to make a mock up (Arrange) a cue per day and he expected it to be absolutely perfect and in harmony with what he was expecting but he basically refused to tell me anything about anything, on the first cue he was like "well...that was not what I was expecting", like he was my boss or something, I basically told him to fck off, that has been one of the most stupid and ridiculous experiences on my 18 years composing music and a totally waste of my time, he is used to win awards on Brazil and being credited as the only composer when he really is not and one thing that really pissed me off was that he spoke in a tone like he was a very important person (I dont know in Brazil, but in L.A. he is clearly not, I mean, the movie looked like something for the Sci Fi channel) my last email ended on "my time is as valuable as yours",........idiot.
I might be overly optimistic but I do believe that things will have to change. People talk. Cheaters can’t hide forever. Thanks for having the courage to clearly explain the very thin lines that seem to separate the grey areas of your profession.
Thanks for not naming and shaming. Too often people do it without fully understanding or from third party hearsay - and unaware of rammifications ..to themselves including career or even deformation cases. At 66 and having worked in a number of industries as well as music, so many people generally dont realise the potential negative impact of 'naming & shaming'. I really enjoy your videos (mainly here for the composition/orchestration ones but enjoy these others) Thanks
Wow. Just wow. I might be naive and an idealist, but honestly, I was laboring under the delusion that our profession is at least a little bit better... because music is supposed to make us better (at least according to good ole Papa Haydn). But it doesn't, ant it's not better. Not since the words "show" and "business" got stuck together and the ethics (or lack thereof) of business became the moral standard. You say that some of these practices are morally questionable. I think you're being too nice, because some of what you mentioned (the fake document case for instance) are downright felonies. Thank you for this eye opener!
I knew this kind of behavior happened but did not know it was this common. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Truly shameful behavior to take credit for someone else's work.
Your content is always so helpful. Thank you for passing it on! I did a lot of ghostwriting in a different industry for about ten years as a side gig before jumping in full-time creating content. But the kinds of projects in my industry seldom generate much residual income anyway, so it wasn't a great loss other than helping establish a reputation. But I always had some form of a written agreement (which included NDAs), all of which I still honor, even after some of my clients have left the industry or died. For me, it was a good opportunity to learn my chops while getting paid and paved the way to a fulfilling career.
There’s so many accuracies in this video, and if it wasn’t for TEAMMATES community, I would not have understood my situation. I thoroughly recommend joining TEAMMATES, there are lots of us that know something is wrong, but are too green to fully understand it. Thank you for making this video.
I haven't had the same prolific experience you've had in scoring media and have luckily run into very good composers who gave credit where and when it was due if I helped. I cannot say the same for journalistic projects but that's another story altogether.
They showed you a FAKE cue sheet?? Like, even if their intentions were to include you, but things somehow changed, they didn't even bother communicating that to you. Some people are really out here building their careers on fragile foundations. Thanks so much for sharing all this! It's helpful to know how someone with your experience feels about additional music, ghostwriting, etc. It helps those of us collaborating with composers to figure out how to create better deals for and with each other!
It happens to everyone, unfortunately. At the same time, it is regrettable that we, as relatively no big names film composers, are being abused by well-known names in Hollywood and outside of it who take all the credits and even dare to put the Awards to their name. The problem in Hollywood is also the sheer number of composers who live there. I recently heard from a Los Angeles TV CEO that there are more composers than actors. The latter is also the reason that we are treated rudely and exploitatively. Because I couldn't handle this well, I started doing more songwriting and electronic music, which also brought me a lot of success next to my film scoring.
It's amazing, the parallels between all the immigrant stories, like mine. I confronted many of these situations in the music for brands space when I got to New York twenty years ago. Thank you for such a candid view of the industry. Your videos illuminate a path to many, myself included.
So appreciate you making videos like this relating your experience for us to benefit from. I’m sorry you were taken advantage of and I hope you never find yourself in such a situation again. I admire how strongly you feel about it, how it has shaped your perspective and that you have chosen to not repeat such behavior but be the composer you wish you had as a benefactor to the people who put their trust in you and join your team.
Very sorry this happened to you. It has happened to me also in scientific research and I know how it feels. Even had the same experience as you with nominations, awards and public events where I watched someone else go on stage and take credit for everything I had built and then use the publicity to boost their career while leaving me in the dark.
Soooo vile… (sigh) like every industry, Hollywood has its share of toxic scum. But you are absolutely right, it's a very "small town" where few secrets can remain hidden for long. Stay strong, Anne :)
Thanks for doing this video, ma'am. Most people are afraid to admit or expose such deeds that aren't really fair and sometimes people are used to accepting or just tolerable with such actions, but it's not supposed to be like that. People have to given what they deserve to be given and that's the right act. An invaluable video that voices out the voice for the voiceless. Thanks again ma'am. Much appreciated. ☺️👏🏽
Kudos to you for releasing this video. It's absolutely incredible that there are people out there that behave like this. I wonder how they sleep at night. Probably very well in their very large beds in their very large houses. But hopefully there's at least some inkling in the back of their mind that they've done the wrong thing
Mensch Anne, da hast du mal wieder ein richtig interessantes Video rausgehauen. Das Gefühl hintergangen oder nicht gewürdigt zu werden ist mir nicht fremd und ich finde es auch blöd, wenn andere die Lorbeeren kassieren und dann nicht den Mumm haben, Klartext zu sprechen oder wenigstens das Lob zu teilen. Ein sehr gutes Video mit interessanten Einsichten. Grüße aus der Heimat.
Superb, engaging and informative video. Your calm restraint is admirable. The world is full of greedy, slippery a**holes and my own experiences in a long and varied career covering pro audio, information technology and insurance confirms that, regrettably, your profession is far from alone in being peppered with such people.
Ego is a poison in music world! In my opinion and my experience I only choose musicians who put their Ego in the music and the actual work instead of themselves. It always end badly when musicians put Ego on themselves. You seem to be a person with an ethic code for work. Never change that! You are very talented and a very clever woman!
I have soooooooo many composer friends (some of whom I'm sure you know) who've had to endure this same journey and it never gets easy to hear these experiences, especially since I've gone through similar things on my chosen career path.
Anne, the Universe Laws are on your side. May you prosper even more in creativity, wisdom, humility, meaningful relationship and inner peace! Your words give me hope! Thank you!!! 🙏🏻
I always enjoy the scenics used to start your videos. Are they where you go to renew your inspiration? Also notice what appears to be Adler's Orchestration consistently on your keyboard. Since you are doubtless an accomplished at orchestration and likely have other books as well, I wonder how you use it when you use it. I acquired my copy of Adler long after I had studied orchestration and find I usually consult another book when I have a question; so I'd love to know what sort of orchestration questions Adler answers best. In addition, a very informative discussion of the ghostwriting issue. Hope the producers and PRO's can do something about it soon.
Wow, thanks for sharing all this. As an outsider I had no idea this kind of thing happened. I keep hearing bad stuff about the entertainment industry; movie studios, game studios, etc. Sounds like a bunch of terrible people in charge. I think this kind of thing happens in academia and in tech, but I've been lucky to have decent, ethical people I've worked for/with and haven't run into this kind of credit-stealing. In fact we'd had training videos at work where they emphasize the importance of crediting others whenever they've contributed etc. Too bad this ethos isn't more prevalent.
wow what a sad state of affairs in bloody Hollywood. Maybe you guys should start naming names. Full credit to you and other new composers making the big move to LA and having the guts to live the dream. I'm sure that one day it will all pay off if it hasn't started to already. Thank you for your honesty. All the best and great channel!
Found your "Composition 102" video lurking in my main page and decided to check a new creator. This... was interesting find. Thanks YT! Recommending me interesting people for a change!
I experienced a number of these things, though not this egregious, with older composers and I figured this kind of crap would die with the old guard. I'm sad to hear this is still going on. Like you I always wondered how these people got that way - why someone capable of that level of sociopathic behavior goes into a creative field in the first place.
Really appreciate the honesty and thanks for sharing your stories. I'm really sorry to hear this, but yeah unfortunately this is how the industry (and many other industries) work. It's the old "grind and work yourself up the ladder"-case that hopefully will fade away one day. It's people like you and the rest of our new younger generation who hopefully can break these old cycles. The right people deserves the true credit.
Wow, Anne-Kathrin, it's terrible that you (and others) have had to endure that kind of treatment! As you say for yourself, I couldn't do that to people if I was in their position. I certainly hope that it will turn out that you have helped to start a movement to end that practice of ghostwriting in the industry!
It is really unfortunate what is occurring in Hollywood with ghostwriters; you do not see actors letting other people play for them certainly. I am also aware of several elite composers, whose identities I will not disclose, who get compensation from the projects of others, often because they are twice or triple booked.
Your anology is dumb are you comparing actors with composers? You don't see session musicans letting others play for them too. There are many ghost writers for writing screenplay for film. There are many ghost editors for editing films. And in every process of film making there are many people involved. Film making is about collaboration.
@@madworker1927 my analogy is to how ridiculous it is to not give credit where credit is due, there is nothing wrong with getting help, as long as you do the right thing and give them credit.
Wow thanks a lot for these kind of videos Anne, it´s fascinating watching this from an experienced composer such as yourself. On the other hand, it´s pretty sad to see that corruption and stupid egos are in pretty much everything nowadays.
I had a short film that was Oscar Nominated, I was sitting across the table (at the Oscar Luncheon) from one of the most famous Hollywood composers in history, somebodies work that I have enjoyed deeply. I told my agent how happy I was to be there......the agent texted me back and said "Ask them for a job" I fired the agent. The desperation that drives the composer also fuels the ghostwriting business...it's a vicious circle.......Don't give in....find your own clients, and compose your own scores. It can be useful and informative to work for another composer but in the end, nearly everyone I've met who's been ghostwriting has ended up very very bitter..........It might sound strange, but your mental health is worth more to you than some film job.....really it is.
the only solution to this problem that I see is a "me too" movement for ghost writers and composers with lawyers, publicity, halting of the distribution of the pertinent properties and significant legal implications for the industry, just like it happened with sexual assault (which is also rampant). I see 1-1 parallels: coercion, people in need of a job, exploitation etc.
Man while listening I could actually feel how you must have felt in those situations. what a scummy business the music industry had become full of people who don't live for the art but only for the fame. Its a shame. Thank you for sharing.
Bravo! I’ve been fortunate so far but I feel like if I encounter these kinds of situations it will be with a greater clarity of mind and more of an ability to spot problems before they happen, thanks to you!
Amazing honesty, great subject and very true. Happened to all of us. I stopped working for others and careless if i get known or not. This happens when composers sell themselves cheaply. It's sad to see what is happening to the music industry and to the true musicians.
What a mess! 😅 Thank you for bravely exposing this. 🙏 The good definitely comes your way as you're sticking to more sustainable values and principles than some. 👍
There is something to be said for "house names" (e.g., Ellery Queen in fiction, N. Bourbaki in mathematics) that provide a brand but are not linked to the ego of one particular contributor.
I'm thinking... knowing all that, if I found myself in this situation with a composer who wants to exploit me as a ghostwriter, I would do the job, but not provide him with anything until the deadline, and then demand a fair contract, or I would keep the music for myself. I would let him explain to the producers why he doesn't have anything to present to them.
It doesn't work that way. Every one says "I would do this and that..." but you are almost never in a position to do either this or that. Do not presume those poor mofos that do it already are dumb, they're just poor, anonymous and young in the industry and easy to be exploited by the big names.
@@dirtyharry1881 Oh, I know! It's so easy to say "I would do this or that" from the comfort of my couch. It's just that... it angers me so much that some people just keep on abusing others and take advantage of their work. I'm only playing this movie in my head, knowing I'm not in their shoes. But also, I know me... there's a pretty good chance I would expose the liar, even though the consequences would be very dire for me. I'm actually pretty shy, but once in a while, I open my mouth and tell the truth. It's put me in some difficult situations on several occasions so... who knows? I do feel for all these poor struggling musicians who can't risk putting their career in jeopardy.
Why not go to the produces yourself, drop them in it, after all you’ve got all the audio on your computer just drop them in it? Perhaps in someway the producers may receive anonymously a copy of the audio? After all I don’t expect that you would like to work with this particular composer again.
One day others will acknowledge how brilliant you really are and come knocking at your door. It starts when you accept that you are outstanding and they need you more than you need them. You actually have a creative gift which is extremely rare. There are a lot of people who compose but cannot create. Your unique creativity can never be taken from you and puts you in another class of being a composer. Others may attempt to 'steal' your creations, but they cannot steal your creativity. That is pure gold that they covet. Not only are you gifted, you are tech savvy and doing an amazing job utilising social media. Believe in yourself. Sell yourself and take no more crap. Don't sell yourself short. My son has travelled a similar journey and is now one of the world's leading photographers by trusting in his creative instincts. He is freelance. Sets his own terms and always in demand. There is no stopping him now. Don't let anyone hold you back. You will never run out of ideas. The music flows out of you. Be patient. Be persistent and be smart. It is all there. I stand in awe of you and look forward to hear your work in the future.
Carry on wayward daughter!! Unfortunately this business of ours is full of these narcissistic gaslighting low-lifes who dangle the proverbial carrot in front of our faces while claiming all the glory. Thank you for sharing and bringing this painful reality to light. By the way, great podcast!
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Happy to see that your channel is growing, well done!
« This is better than anything you’ve ever done! »… Priceless… 😂 Well, congrats Anne-Kathrin! You’re raising the level of writing! How do you do to take it like that? You have a solid mindset for sure.
ngl I'd love to work on big box office movies in Hollywood, but at the same time it does feel like you basically would need to be a ghost-writer for someone like Zimmer first before being able to break away. Like it's a big mandatory step. And I mean I do get it, cause the production companies trust Zimmer and other big names, and Zimmer trusted you enough to allow you in, but still it feels as if you somehow need to get a line right behind em. I mean either way I'm currently still an EDM producer and WOW is composing at least different insight into music and I'm likely still a decade away if I'm VERY lucky
There are BIG songs/records out there in the world made 20+ yrs ago that if you were to go by the liner notes-were produced/recorded/mixed by 1 person…by one big name… someone who actually literally couldn’t make a pot of coffee…but were good at smoking it.
I'm so glad I don't write music for movies or TV-shows. I write when and what I want to do, choosing my own style and content. Of course being a composer writing like this isn't always rewarding as to live performances. You're depending on some luck to be picked up by an ensemble or orchestra. But I don't have to live off my compositions. That's why I started to make mock-ups to present the works to the outside world.
1st-Thank you for this. 2nd- I hate how you were treated. 3rd-I can't stop thinking how horrible the 'elite' become, until they have to live up to your quality. The fake document is infuriating, cheating...this is extremely eye opening. Thank you.
A hero indeed you are, I am proud to here someone standing up to the rotten industry of the music world, the truth about the whole world is every institution is corrupt in some dept, its not any institutions per say it those rotten humans that control and create unfair play and worse. You are a hero we need more brave humans to stand up, we all need to support this fine lady.
Such an interesting post. All big business is at least somewhat dirty and dishonest, but complexity is not an adequate reason for what is unfair practice. It’s easy to understand how some of these situations can come about. I would think it’s on the production company to insist on an accurate list of everybody involved. As was said here, it’s in their best interest ethically and legally. Very good post!
I would love to hear an example of ethical ghostwriting. Like, under what circumstances is not crediting someone for their work justified? I can't think of a single one.
Thanks for speaking out about this. Hope to see more composers pledge not to use ghostwriters and to give proper credit to everyone they work with. Of course, the best would be for the industry itself to crack down on such shady practices.
Great episode, thanks 👍 Such practices should not happen anymore. I hope some people will have enough courage to give names of those “great composers” who cheat others in the industry like it was with “me too” with actresses and producers/directors.
Wow, I knew Hollywood was full of nonsense, posers and BS artists but I didn't think it was to the degree you describe Ann. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I guess I should consider myself lucky that this is not the norm in the theatre sound and composition world. Although I'm sure there are some who do or would work this way in my part of the industry as well. But theatre has far less money involved, so you'll never get wealthy (let's be real you're lucky if you can earn a modest living in theatre sound) but there are far fewer sharks and cheats. Anyway thank you once again for your well thought out and insightful videos and most importantly for not perpetuating the wrongs of the industry with your own teams. Hopefully there are more trustworthy and compassionate folks, like yourself, in the pipeline for future work than there are folks like you have described here.
Really good video, its hard to admit past issues, even to yourself. Its a shame these theives do not face justice. Probably been going on forever, and will keep going.
Wow I almost feel like crying and feeling angry at the same time when I hear your story about gostwriting and not to be appreciated at all. I'm very inspired about your video's in general, so at least thank you for that. Cheers from Belgium.
I've been around the film and TV composers since the 70's and seems like nothing has changed except now with modern computers and music software and libraries it's easier for the ghosts and staff are carrying more and more of the load than before. A couple old friends were "orchesters" for probably the biggest name in Hollywood and what I've heard the big name only writes the themes. The big name has a few hand picked "orchesters" who know his writing and style so well you really can't tell the difference. So interesting that 50 years later nothing has changed except the technology has made being a ghost easier.
There are a lot of comments saying "name and shame" and I want to clarify something: We all signed NDAs and there's a chance for massive career fallout. Most of us working in this industry have spent a good decade or more honing our craft and at least another decade to build a sustainable career. To say we should "name and shame", to put that on our shoulders, implying we're cowards or part of the problem if we don't, is incredibly shortsighted. You're basically asking us to potentially destroy our careers and everything we've worked for, and make ourselves liable to aggressive lawsuits that could financially ruin us forever. It's a little insulting to expect all these people to just risk everything. It's easy to say if you yourself have nothing to lose and no skin in the game. The impact on those employing ghosts would be minor if non-existent but the impact on the current or former ghosts would be devastating. There's a power imbalance that doesn't get solved over night.
Such a good head on your shoulders. Thanks for this video by the way! It was most enlightening.
That's just internet bloodthirsty trolls... you can't name shame if you want to have your place in this industry. You can shame them in the act, but not publicly. It's always a question of "acceptance"... if you agree to go along, you have to go along all the way. My issue is that people should not agree. And if you're tricked into it, fight it. See my other comments down there about payment upfront, recording all your conversations for leverage, etc...
I strongly agree to this
Well said
About 15 years ago I formed a plan to move from software engineering into media scoring. As I executed the first several years of this plan, my extended family inevitably heard me discussing it and it turns out that one of the most successful, most well-known orchestrators in the industry - who is also a stellar composer in their own right - is a close personal friend and creative partner of a cousin of mine. At first this was wildly encouraging, but then I started hearing first-hand accounts of the horror stories that abound in this area. Given the stature of this individual, and the nature of the injustices I was hearing about that apparently go on even at THAT level, it slowly became clear that what I was shooting for was either not going to be feasible at mid-life, or that minimally it would be even more stressful than what I was already doing. I ended up dropping the whole idea. Recently, now having retired, I've renewed interest in this area, but pursue it purely for my own personal enjoyment and enrichment (and by the way, Anne, your channel has been a great resource in that regard!).
Sadly, these situations appear to be prevalent in every industry - certainly in high tech (which was part of my motivation for moving on). I suppose if our academic institutions keep churning out one generation after another containing a critical mass of narcissistic sociopaths, this problem is only going to get worse.
I have a lot of things I want to say but I'll condense them all down: We need more people like you, you're a good one. Not just in the arts, but EVERYWHERE.
Pease continue your series of talking about all of the things no one is supposed to talk about. The only way our generation wins is if we do away with all of the taboos that were only put in place to take advantage of people.
I am so sorry that you had to deal with so many insecure individuals, and I appreciate you being so courageous, kind, and generous with your expertise. You are admirable.
After watching this video, I just don't ever want to work in Film Scoring, and just work in my own projects. Thanks for sharing with us your personal experience, Anne.
Fuerte abrazo desde México.
Ann, as usual you make valid points and say things EXACTLY as they are. My career the last 4-5 years has been more or less what you describe in your video. I pretty much do all the variations of co writing, ghosting, writing for no credit with cue sheet...without...you name it. My cues too were sometimes chosen over the lead composer's...bringing me joy and sadness at the same time.
You know what really amazes me? a few of these A list composers (who have big teams on their payroll) are going around social media saying that composers should form a union. They say things like 'it's about time we unionized' and 'composers have rights too'...ALL fine and dandy in principle but in reality those composers are the reason why a union for composers will never happen. They can't be employers and employees at the same time.
A union exists to safeguard employees' rights NOT the employers. Here the irony is even bigger because these composers are actually shitty employers (as you so eloquently describe) and yet they parade around waving the 'let's form a union' flag. A union of what...millionaires?!!
Who is going to protect the ghosts and the invisible ones? who is going to give credit where credit is due? who is going to share an award at the ceremony?
It's such a mindboggling concept to me. I talk about this a lot with other colleagues and no one can really make sense of some of these people. I wonder if they can see their own hypocrisy or if they just simply lack self-awareness. The mystery continues...
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I'd say that it's hypocrisy for the most part. They KNOW that what they do is unethical and trust me if they could pay people even less AND treat them they shittier they would. It's typical greedy employer mentality...same as having minimum wage in other jobs...if minimum wage wasn't the law, the employers would pay less than that for sure.
As you saw from the discussion at Perspective, even composers have wildly different opinions about it...
see you in November !
As a film music fan and collector for over 15 years, I'm dying to know what names are the most hypocrites.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Indeed, that is a problem of self-awareness, because people who are so hypocritical can't tell the truth from lies, fact from fiction, right from wrong. Living a lie like this blinds them to the moral evil they are guilty of. And that is the problem with such hypocritical bastards. Much as grandiloquent this may sound, the truth sets us free also in the sense that it allows us to see what wrongs we really do. It all starts with lying to yourself - such people first need to convince themselves that what they are doing is just ok, and in so they blind themselves to what they are in fact doing. Then they just ensnare you, and if you agree to play along, that just consolidates their "lie." Sadly for the trade, you can be a musically gifted, artistically sensitive, but mendacious and mean-spirited human being. A painful bubble burst to me!
I took a ghost writting gig a few months ago and it was some of the most humilliating times of my life. a composer got hired for a project, couldn't do half of what he promissed and got me to do it for him. He came up to me with a deal and then changed it in the middle of our time working together, gave me confusing, messed up deadlines, kept all the credits and passive income, and eventually got verbally abusive, not to mention giving me a hard time to get the paid. It really sucks to see my music being credited to someone else. Hope I never have to do it again.
The company that hired him paid a lot and I got extremely underpaid. We both got screwed up pretty bad. I have saved all our conversations, including where he mentions "ghostwriting" by name and where he talks trash about the company. I wonder if I could do something about it without getting in trouble.
I just created this account to comment on the video. There is no way I'm talking about this stuff on my real account.
Tough to say how much he got. I estimate at least a few thousand dollars for the whole deal. Maybe tens, plus a bunch of great exposure by the company. I got a few houndreds.
Curious why you’d get in trouble ?
@@richalves3965 The whole point of Ghostwriting is your supposed to be a ghost, I can’t say for sure but it’s more than likely a breach of confidentially contract if you whistle blow, also there’s a chance you could get in shit for defamation as the guy you ghost wrote for ain’t gonna be happy when people find out he’s not as good as people think he is
@@richalves3965 there is also the danger of reputational damage. If people see you as being awkward to work with (which might in reality simply you standing up for your rights, being assertive) then you won't get hired because of that reputation
@@richalves3965 Well, that's what I was wondering, and the reason I decided to post this.
I feel your pain =(
In the end, after studying arrangement and orchestration through UCLA Ext, I decided to pursue a different career because the contacts I made with the professionals who taught the classes, expected their students to ghostwrite without pay or credit to "gain experience". It may be different now, but I have a successful career in tech that pays much better, and enabled me to write what I want and retain full ownership! I'm glad you made it to a place where you don't have to accept those jobs anymore. 🙂
I don't know how you were able to put up with all of this, I wouldn't, I would had come back to my homecountry, I am however very happy that there're still people like you that decide to not perpetuate and actually be fair with the team, you truly are a gem Anne.
Wow so this is real. When I was at CALARTS for music composition, a fellow composer told me this has happened before with a famous film Composer. I am ashamed to even say his name because the Composer is a LEGEND. I have no proof so I will NOT say his name, however he is a great legendary film composer. This was in 1983 when I was a student composer. I was shocked, now I hear this was probably true. I am still writing my music and now along with screenwriting. I will continue to enjoy your videos.
I am now a 29 time Award winning screenwriter, a guy I know wanted me to develop a TV Character without paying me. So I stated how about 4k, "Oh now I will not hire you" He wanted a character, and I am one who must write the script to develop the work, the character so I just accepted that "he most likely" would not hire me as a writer anyway.
Thank you for bringing this up! This is a topic that needs to be addressed and like nobody talks about it (maybe too scared?). So thanks a lot for speaking up because honestly Hollywood is a very toxic environment. When I heard your personal experiences I truly felt so sorry you had to go through this... Hope now you're receiving all the credits and merits you deserve because I genuinely think that you're an amazing composer and orchestrator!
Been waiting on the complex breakdown on this topic for a while. Thanks for this gem.
Damns sounds like that industry is even more toxic than the electronic music scene ….
I guess every big industry has their own toxicity
Music industry as a whole is a fucking joke.
Equal parts funny & sad is so true. This is an incredibly insightful video and you are a class act.
Very powerful and touching video! I am so sorry you had to go through those toxic stages. Thank you so much for sharing your experience!
Wow! You definitely doesn't find such information in courses, books or wherever! 👏🏻
Next hot topic should be Cronyism in Film Music
That was almost painful to watch, it's disgusting how such practices are so commonplace.
You touch on it briefly but, how much of this problem you think ties into the oversaturation of the market problem? People willing to do whatever it takes to get a foot in the door or be in someone's good books. Cause by the looks of it it looks like it doesn't only affect entry level people (with entry level skills) but fully fledged professionals as well (I mean if someone's capable of scoring successfully a whole show or film back to back they are professional level). Beyond the cheating you mentioned, would you say the particularities that applied to you are the norm (such as immigration status, economic problems etc)? Or has it more to do with an inbalance between supply and demmand of workforce (oversaturation)?
At any rate huge thanks for bringing up topics like these. The world definitely needs to hear about them.
@@superblondeDotOrg wow that's insane! But I guess it 'makes sense' for those people to say that if they're willing to put up with all that in the first place. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure none of them liked that situation in the least, but chances are if they had spoken up against it they might have got balcklisted in some way.
It's so sad, I remember starting to 'work' many years ago for one of my former teachers, who was a ghostwritter himself (which I guess made me the ultimate ghostwriter) and thinking what the hell is this? I dropped it after a couple of weeks. The number of people out there must be truly insane. A video editor I know told me that after posting on one of those filmcomposer Facebook groups that he was looking for a composer for his zero budget first short film, he had around 100 people message him in the first 24h. Bonkers!
Don't forget to tickle that YT algorithm so Miss Dern's story goes viral. Thanks Ann-Kathrin! Greetings From Sweden.
At 20 minutes: that is true under the US Copyright Act as well! Unless you sign a written release or work for hire agreement or copyright assignment, you are still the copyright owner.
Yes! I wasn't even aware at the time until I was contacted by a European production that had gotten wind of me and other people having been ghosts on one of their productions. So they had to track down everyone and get release forms signed. In the process of doing that they explained the legal situation to us and I was like "Oh so... I still own all of that music then?"
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer LOL, oopsie. Did you ask to get at least get imdb credit if the movie wasn't released yet? Stuff like this probably don't help the career of the composer-in-charge (he's essentially creating a legal timebomb for the whole production - what if anyone had refused to sign?)
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” Hunter S Thompson
Thank You very brave for doing this congrats !
oh my dear Anne, I enjoyed your rant and the stories a lot about shame, hilarious moments and exploitation. The problem usually starts with young composers who agree on bad deals but as you also mention, sometimes it's the only way in and this is also how the business works. Keep it up and where is that platform of ghostwriters educating each other?
A-KD spilling the tea! I admire your bravery and your honesty in bringing this “little dirty secret” out into the open. You didn’t name names, but you really didn’t have to. We have all heard the rumors. You are a star and your recognition will come!
This happened to me with a guy from Brazil living in L.A., he is used to hire "Arrangers" to do his work and credited those people as Arrangers when they have done the majority of the music really, he wanted to give me some very bad mock ups he have done for the different scenes and not tell me anything about the movie, the scene, the characters, nothing, I asked him several times what was that he wanted for the scene, how he wanted it to sound, anything, he just ignored my messages and the other guy that was like the music supervisor or something and also he was a friend of this "composer" (both of them where from Brazil) was the one answering the emails and telling me "oh when you hear the tracks all the answers to your questions will be clear", I mean, what? He wanted me to make a mock up (Arrange) a cue per day and he expected it to be absolutely perfect and in harmony with what he was expecting but he basically refused to tell me anything about anything, on the first cue he was like "well...that was not what I was expecting", like he was my boss or something, I basically told him to fck off, that has been one of the most stupid and ridiculous experiences on my 18 years composing music and a totally waste of my time, he is used to win awards on Brazil and being credited as the only composer when he really is not and one thing that really pissed me off was that he spoke in a tone like he was a very important person (I dont know in Brazil, but in L.A. he is clearly not, I mean, the movie looked like something for the Sci Fi channel) my last email ended on "my time is as valuable as yours",........idiot.
I might be overly optimistic but I do believe that things will have to change. People talk. Cheaters can’t hide forever. Thanks for having the courage to clearly explain the very thin lines that seem to separate the grey areas of your profession.
Thanks for not naming and shaming. Too often people do it without fully understanding or from third party hearsay - and unaware of rammifications ..to themselves including career or even deformation cases.
At 66 and having worked in a number of industries as well as music, so many people generally dont realise the potential negative impact of 'naming & shaming'.
I really enjoy your videos (mainly here for the composition/orchestration ones but enjoy these others)
Thanks
Wow. Just wow. I might be naive and an idealist, but honestly, I was laboring under the delusion that our profession is at least a little bit better... because music is supposed to make us better (at least according to good ole Papa Haydn). But it doesn't, ant it's not better. Not since the words "show" and "business" got stuck together and the ethics (or lack thereof) of business became the moral standard. You say that some of these practices are morally questionable. I think you're being too nice, because some of what you mentioned (the fake document case for instance) are downright felonies. Thank you for this eye opener!
I knew this kind of behavior happened but did not know it was this common. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Truly shameful behavior to take credit for someone else's work.
Your content is always so helpful. Thank you for passing it on! I did a lot of ghostwriting in a different industry for about ten years as a side gig before jumping in full-time creating content. But the kinds of projects in my industry seldom generate much residual income anyway, so it wasn't a great loss other than helping establish a reputation. But I always had some form of a written agreement (which included NDAs), all of which I still honor, even after some of my clients have left the industry or died. For me, it was a good opportunity to learn my chops while getting paid and paved the way to a fulfilling career.
OMG!!! Incredible, unique testimony!! I have no words...except a huge thank you for your courage!!
I'm SO sorry you've had to go through this yourself, even without naming names, you are BRAVE, thanks for being the rare "Giver" in the industry!
There’s so many accuracies in this video, and if it wasn’t for TEAMMATES community, I would not have understood my situation. I thoroughly recommend joining TEAMMATES, there are lots of us that know something is wrong, but are too green to fully understand it. Thank you for making this video.
I haven't had the same prolific experience you've had in scoring media and have luckily run into very good composers who gave credit where and when it was due if I helped. I cannot say the same for journalistic projects but that's another story altogether.
Oh god, the poetic justice is to die for in that last personal anecdote! You're my new personal hero!!
They showed you a FAKE cue sheet?? Like, even if their intentions were to include you, but things somehow changed, they didn't even bother communicating that to you. Some people are really out here building their careers on fragile foundations. Thanks so much for sharing all this! It's helpful to know how someone with your experience feels about additional music, ghostwriting, etc. It helps those of us collaborating with composers to figure out how to create better deals for and with each other!
It happens to everyone, unfortunately. At the same time, it is regrettable that we, as relatively no big names film composers, are being abused by well-known names in Hollywood and outside of it who take all the credits and even dare to put the Awards to their name. The problem in Hollywood is also the sheer number of composers who live there. I recently heard from a Los Angeles TV CEO that there are more composers than actors. The latter is also the reason that we are treated rudely and exploitatively. Because I couldn't handle this well, I started doing more songwriting and electronic music, which also brought me a lot of success next to my film scoring.
Danny Elfman was in a Band before film scoring. Much continued success.
Just caught this via Facebook; thank you so so much for going in depth about this!
It's amazing, the parallels between all the immigrant stories, like mine. I confronted many of these situations in the music for brands space when I got to New York twenty years ago. Thank you for such a candid view of the industry. Your videos illuminate a path to many, myself included.
So appreciate you making videos like this relating your experience for us to benefit from. I’m sorry you were taken advantage of and I hope you never find yourself in such a situation again. I admire how strongly you feel about it, how it has shaped your perspective and that you have chosen to not repeat such behavior but be the composer you wish you had as a benefactor to the people who put their trust in you and join your team.
Very sorry this happened to you. It has happened to me also in scientific research and I know how it feels. Even had the same experience as you with nominations, awards and public events where I watched someone else go on stage and take credit for everything I had built and then use the publicity to boost their career while leaving me in the dark.
Soooo vile… (sigh) like every industry, Hollywood has its share of toxic
scum. But you are absolutely right, it's a very "small town" where few
secrets can remain hidden for long. Stay strong, Anne :)
"... And this is why you always see my whole team in my videos"
You seem like a genuinely good person and a delight to work for.
Thanks for doing this video, ma'am. Most people are afraid to admit or expose such deeds that aren't really fair and sometimes people are used to accepting or just tolerable with such actions, but it's not supposed to be like that. People have to given what they deserve to be given and that's the right act. An invaluable video that voices out the voice for the voiceless. Thanks again ma'am. Much appreciated. ☺️👏🏽
this video should have 100 M views, this thing should be known in general
Thank you for putting out this content! So grateful that you share so much on your channel. Thank you!
Kudos to you for releasing this video. It's absolutely incredible that there are people out there that behave like this. I wonder how they sleep at night. Probably very well in their very large beds in their very large houses. But hopefully there's at least some inkling in the back of their mind that they've done the wrong thing
Thanks for sharing, Anne. I hope this gets sorted out in the future...Ghostwriting as a concept is just...icky.
Mensch Anne, da hast du mal wieder ein richtig interessantes Video rausgehauen. Das Gefühl hintergangen oder nicht gewürdigt zu werden ist mir nicht fremd und ich finde es auch blöd, wenn andere die Lorbeeren kassieren und dann nicht den Mumm haben, Klartext zu sprechen oder wenigstens das Lob zu teilen. Ein sehr gutes Video mit interessanten Einsichten. Grüße aus der Heimat.
Superb, engaging and informative video. Your calm restraint is admirable. The world is full of greedy, slippery a**holes and my own experiences in a long and varied career covering pro audio, information technology and insurance confirms that, regrettably, your profession is far from alone in being peppered with such people.
Ego is a poison in music world!
In my opinion and my experience I only choose musicians who put their Ego in the music and the actual work instead of themselves.
It always end badly when musicians put Ego on themselves.
You seem to be a person with an ethic code for work.
Never change that! You are very talented and a very clever woman!
I have soooooooo many composer friends (some of whom I'm sure you know) who've had to endure this same journey and it never gets easy to hear these experiences, especially since I've gone through similar things on my chosen career path.
Anne, the Universe Laws are on your side. May you prosper even more in creativity, wisdom, humility, meaningful relationship and inner peace! Your words give me hope! Thank you!!! 🙏🏻
Really powerful and important video, thank you
I always enjoy the scenics used to start your videos. Are they where you go to renew your inspiration?
Also notice what appears to be Adler's Orchestration consistently on your keyboard. Since you are doubtless an accomplished at orchestration and likely have other books as well, I wonder how you use it when you use it. I acquired my copy of Adler long after I had studied orchestration and find I usually consult another book when I have a question; so I'd love to know what sort of orchestration questions Adler answers best.
In addition, a very informative discussion of the ghostwriting issue. Hope the producers and PRO's can do something about it soon.
Wow, thanks for sharing all this. As an outsider I had no idea this kind of thing happened. I keep hearing bad stuff about the entertainment industry; movie studios, game studios, etc. Sounds like a bunch of terrible people in charge.
I think this kind of thing happens in academia and in tech, but I've been lucky to have decent, ethical people I've worked for/with and haven't run into this kind of credit-stealing. In fact we'd had training videos at work where they emphasize the importance of crediting others whenever they've contributed etc. Too bad this ethos isn't more prevalent.
wow what a sad state of affairs in bloody Hollywood. Maybe you guys should start naming names. Full credit to you and other new composers making the big move to LA and having the guts to live the dream. I'm sure that one day it will all pay off if it hasn't started to already. Thank you for your honesty. All the best and great channel!
Found your "Composition 102" video lurking in my main page and decided to check a new creator. This... was interesting find. Thanks YT! Recommending me interesting people for a change!
I experienced a number of these things, though not this egregious, with older composers and I figured this kind of crap would die with the old guard. I'm sad to hear this is still going on. Like you I always wondered how these people got that way - why someone capable of that level of sociopathic behavior goes into a creative field in the first place.
A lot of respect for saying these things out!
Really appreciate the honesty and thanks for sharing your stories. I'm really sorry to hear this, but yeah unfortunately this is how the industry (and many other industries) work. It's the old "grind and work yourself up the ladder"-case that hopefully will fade away one day. It's people like you and the rest of our new younger generation who hopefully can break these old cycles. The right people deserves the true credit.
Wow, Anne-Kathrin, it's terrible that you (and others) have had to endure that kind of treatment! As you say for yourself, I couldn't do that to people if I was in their position. I certainly hope that it will turn out that you have helped to start a movement to end that practice of ghostwriting in the industry!
It is really unfortunate what is occurring in Hollywood with ghostwriters; you do not see actors letting other people play for them certainly. I am also aware of several elite composers, whose identities I will not disclose, who get compensation from the projects of others, often because they are twice or triple booked.
Your anology is dumb are you comparing actors with composers? You don't see session musicans letting others play for them too. There are many ghost writers for writing screenplay for film. There are many ghost editors for editing films.
And in every process of film making there are many people involved. Film making is about collaboration.
@@madworker1927 my analogy is to how ridiculous it is to not give credit where credit is due, there is nothing wrong with getting help, as long as you do the right thing and give them credit.
Thanks for all of this info. Life can be very messy, especially in the music biz. Wishing you great experiences ahead., Love your channel.
Wow thanks a lot for these kind of videos Anne, it´s fascinating watching this from an experienced composer such as yourself. On the other hand, it´s pretty sad to see that corruption and stupid egos are in pretty much everything nowadays.
I had a short film that was Oscar Nominated, I was sitting across the table (at the Oscar Luncheon) from one of the most famous Hollywood composers in history, somebodies work that I have enjoyed deeply. I told my agent how happy I was to be there......the agent texted me back and said "Ask them for a job" I fired the agent. The desperation that drives the composer also fuels the ghostwriting business...it's a vicious circle.......Don't give in....find your own clients, and compose your own scores. It can be useful and informative to work for another composer but in the end, nearly everyone I've met who's been ghostwriting has ended up very very bitter..........It might sound strange, but your mental health is worth more to you than some film job.....really it is.
the only solution to this problem that I see is a "me too" movement for ghost writers and composers with lawyers, publicity, halting of the distribution of the pertinent properties and significant legal implications for the industry, just like it happened with sexual assault (which is also rampant). I see 1-1 parallels: coercion, people in need of a job, exploitation etc.
By the way, some of these behaviours amount to fraud, they're illegal, I don't think they 're covered (or should be covered) by NDAs.
Bärenstarkes Video. Danke für die Offenheit.
I'm chocked by what you said !
Man while listening I could actually feel how you must have felt in those situations. what a scummy business the music industry had become full of people who don't live for the art but only for the fame. Its a shame. Thank you for sharing.
Bravo! I’ve been fortunate so far but I feel like if I encounter these kinds of situations it will be with a greater clarity of mind and more of an ability to spot problems before they happen, thanks to you!
Amazing honesty, great subject and very true. Happened to all of us.
I stopped working for others and careless if i get known or not.
This happens when composers sell themselves cheaply.
It's sad to see what is happening to the music industry and to the true musicians.
What a mess! 😅 Thank you for bravely exposing this. 🙏 The good definitely comes your way as you're sticking to more sustainable values and principles than some. 👍
There is something to be said for "house names" (e.g., Ellery Queen in fiction, N. Bourbaki in mathematics) that provide a brand but are not linked to the ego of one particular contributor.
I'm thinking... knowing all that, if I found myself in this situation with a composer who wants to exploit me as a ghostwriter, I would do the job, but not provide him with anything until the deadline, and then demand a fair contract, or I would keep the music for myself. I would let him explain to the producers why he doesn't have anything to present to them.
It doesn't work that way. Every one says "I would do this and that..." but you are almost never in a position to do either this or that. Do not presume those poor mofos that do it already are dumb, they're just poor, anonymous and young in the industry and easy to be exploited by the big names.
@@dirtyharry1881 Oh, I know! It's so easy to say "I would do this or that" from the comfort of my couch. It's just that... it angers me so much that some people just keep on abusing others and take advantage of their work. I'm only playing this movie in my head, knowing I'm not in their shoes. But also, I know me... there's a pretty good chance I would expose the liar, even though the consequences would be very dire for me. I'm actually pretty shy, but once in a while, I open my mouth and tell the truth. It's put me in some difficult situations on several occasions so... who knows?
I do feel for all these poor struggling musicians who can't risk putting their career in jeopardy.
Why not go to the produces yourself, drop them in it, after all you’ve got all the audio on your computer just drop them in it?
Perhaps in someway the producers may receive anonymously a copy of the audio? After all I don’t expect that you would like to work with this particular composer again.
One day others will acknowledge how brilliant you really are and come knocking at your door. It starts when you accept that you are outstanding and they need you more than you need them. You actually have a creative gift which is extremely rare. There are a lot of people who compose but cannot create. Your unique creativity can never be taken from you and puts you in another class of being a composer. Others may attempt to 'steal' your creations, but they cannot steal your creativity. That is pure gold that they covet. Not only are you gifted, you are tech savvy and doing an amazing job utilising social media. Believe in yourself. Sell yourself and take no more crap. Don't sell yourself short. My son has travelled a similar journey and is now one of the world's leading photographers by trusting in his creative instincts. He is freelance. Sets his own terms and always in demand. There is no stopping him now. Don't let anyone hold you back. You will never run out of ideas. The music flows out of you. Be patient. Be persistent and be smart. It is all there. I stand in awe of you and look forward to hear your work in the future.
I love your willingness to step in and talk about sticky issues! Someone has to say something after all!
Carry on wayward daughter!!
Unfortunately this business of ours is full of these narcissistic gaslighting low-lifes who dangle the proverbial carrot in front of our faces while claiming all the glory. Thank you for sharing and bringing this painful reality to light. By the way, great podcast!
Happy to see that your channel is growing, well done!
Thanks for sharing this! Very valuable information!
« This is better than anything you’ve ever done! »… Priceless… 😂 Well, congrats Anne-Kathrin! You’re raising the level of writing! How do you do to take it like that? You have a solid mindset for sure.
ngl I'd love to work on big box office movies in Hollywood, but at the same time it does feel like you basically would need to be a ghost-writer for someone like Zimmer first before being able to break away. Like it's a big mandatory step. And I mean I do get it, cause the production companies trust Zimmer and other big names, and Zimmer trusted you enough to allow you in, but still it feels as if you somehow need to get a line right behind em. I mean either way I'm currently still an EDM producer and WOW is composing at least different insight into music and I'm likely still a decade away if I'm VERY lucky
I think I know the composer she talks about in her anecdotes, and he is famous.
There are BIG songs/records out there in the world made 20+ yrs ago that if you were to go by the liner notes-were produced/recorded/mixed by 1 person…by one big name… someone who actually literally couldn’t make a pot of coffee…but were good at smoking it.
I'm so glad I don't write music for movies or TV-shows. I write when and what I want to do, choosing my own style and content. Of course being a composer writing like this isn't always rewarding as to live performances. You're depending on some luck to be picked up by an ensemble or orchestra. But I don't have to live off my compositions. That's why I started to make mock-ups to present the works to the outside world.
1st-Thank you for this. 2nd- I hate how you were treated. 3rd-I can't stop thinking how horrible the 'elite' become, until they have to live up to your quality. The fake document is infuriating, cheating...this is extremely eye opening. Thank you.
A hero indeed you are, I am proud to here someone standing up to the rotten industry of the music world, the truth about the whole world is every institution is corrupt in some dept, its not any institutions per say it those rotten humans that control and create unfair play and worse. You are a hero we need more brave humans to stand up, we all need to support this fine lady.
Great insider look! - As for those anecdotes, I understand having to "pay your dues" but blatant dishonesty should be called out! I.M.O.
Such an interesting post. All big business is at least somewhat dirty and dishonest, but complexity is not an adequate reason for what is unfair practice. It’s easy to understand how some of these situations can come about.
I would think it’s on the production company to insist on an accurate list of everybody involved. As was said here, it’s in their best interest ethically and legally.
Very good post!
So glad I only write for my own projects.
Sadly, I've seen this in every genre of music. Glad you made this video.
I would love to hear an example of ethical ghostwriting. Like, under what circumstances is not crediting someone for their work justified? I can't think of a single one.
And now you’ve got another ghostwriter….Hollywood orchestrator ! 😜 thanks for your honesty.
Keep smiling and be strong.
Thanks for speaking out about this. Hope to see more composers pledge not to use ghostwriters and to give proper credit to everyone they work with. Of course, the best would be for the industry itself to crack down on such shady practices.
Great episode, thanks 👍 Such practices should not happen anymore. I hope some people will have enough courage to give names of those “great composers” who cheat others in the industry like it was with “me too” with actresses and producers/directors.
So True Anne!!! Thank you for that video.
Wow, I knew Hollywood was full of nonsense, posers and BS artists but I didn't think it was to the degree you describe Ann. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I guess I should consider myself lucky that this is not the norm in the theatre sound and composition world. Although I'm sure there are some who do or would work this way in my part of the industry as well. But theatre has far less money involved, so you'll never get wealthy (let's be real you're lucky if you can earn a modest living in theatre sound) but there are far fewer sharks and cheats.
Anyway thank you once again for your well thought out and insightful videos and most importantly for not perpetuating the wrongs of the industry with your own teams. Hopefully there are more trustworthy and compassionate folks, like yourself, in the pipeline for future work than there are folks like you have described here.
Really good video, its hard to admit past issues, even to yourself. Its a shame these theives do not face justice. Probably been going on forever, and will keep going.
Anne, you are a wonderful and beautiful person.
I admire your courage, Anne. Great video.
Wow I almost feel like crying and feeling angry at the same time when I hear your story about gostwriting and not to be appreciated at all. I'm very inspired about your video's in general, so at least thank you for that. Cheers from Belgium.
I've been around the film and TV composers since the 70's and seems like nothing has changed except now with modern computers and music software and libraries it's easier for the ghosts and staff are carrying more and more of the load than before. A couple old friends were "orchesters" for probably the biggest name in Hollywood and what I've heard the big name only writes the themes. The big name has a few hand picked "orchesters" who know his writing and style so well you really can't tell the difference. So interesting that 50 years later nothing has changed except the technology has made being a ghost easier.