A321NEO vs 757 - Delta's Boeing 757 Retirement
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- Delta will keep its Boeing 757s operational till the 2030s as it looks to obtain as much life as possible from them. Interestingly, the airline has orders for the Airbus A321neo but notes that it struggles to source the perfect replacement for the 757 nearly two decades after production concluded. But, just why is the airline not looking to retire the aircraft?
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I bet there's a few Boeing people that wish they still had the 757 production line. With newer engines it would still be competitive today.
No it would not.
Boeing really had tunnel vision with the 787 development that it completely lost sight of replacing the 737 NGs and 757s. The MAX was rushed and I think Boeing thought it would get to an NMA in the late 2010s but circumstances prevented it due to overall financial problems. The A321 didn’t take off in sales until the mid 2010s and did not sell well in the early 2000s. Boeing probably believed it had time to develop something in the next decade and underestimated the 321s later appeal (especially with the neos). Strategic mismanagement IMO when it came to forecasting the next 25 years. This is the same company that pushed the 767-400 as an A330 equivalent in the late 90s and early 2000s. A little overconfident.
@@ryanthomas887 It's still amazing to me that Boeing have stuck with an aircraft that predates turbofans. Every iteration after the 100/200 has been a compromised design and with every successive stretch and re-engine, that compromise has just got worse. Poor strategy- as you say- and corporate greed have led to this. The FAA not doing their job properly in the first place with Max certification just made for the perfect storm.
@@alunjones2550 unfortunately that was exactly what happened. The leadership only thought a couple years out in advance when it required decades. Short term profitability in a capital intensive and high development cost industry is a doomed strategy. For a business like Boeing you have to make smart long term investments in your research, capital, and personnel. When engineering, manufacturing, and accounting are all siloed from each other you run into quality, production, and supply chain issues. It really undermines collaboration and buy-in.
@@ryanthomas887 Boeing didn't have financial problems - they CHOSE to blow years worth of free cash flow on stock buy-backs and dividend payouts instead of pouring more into the company itself, training, and airplane programs.
Brit here, to be fair, the 757 was a sports car of a Airliner and built when Boeing knew what it was doing, safety being paramount. Keeping the 757, thats a airline decision, which means, they still think its a great aircraft. I would agree. So long as they keep it away from modern day Boeing- A 757 replacement? dont even go there! . As to the A321Neo very similar, less capacity but better returns on fuel usage. So its a bit like horses for courses. Of the Old Boeing range, these aircraft still today, show their original strengths and if proof were needed, shows that engineering led and safety foremost how aircraft should be built.!
I love Airbus and all its achievements in a world market originally owned by Boeing, surging forward. Boeing of today is run by Greed and Wall st. so sad. Just think, given the chance what they could build-not the MAX crap thats for sure.
Yo idgaf😂
Built before the bean counters at McDonnell Douglas took over.
I retired from a top 3 airline a couple of years ago. The 757 that I flew had a passenger capacity of 174. The A321CEOs & NEOs that I retired from had a capacity of 199.
The fact that the 757 still competes range wise and performance wise with an aircraft 30 years newer than it shows how great of a design it is. Sure it’s not as fuel efficient but its take off performance is still crazy. If they coulda gotten new engines for it it likely coulda been around for decades to come
The 757 is one of the best planes out there. What they should do is come up with a 757neo.
757 is by far what i think the best Boeing plane built. A sportscar that feels just safe!
As a 6 year old in 1968 the 727 was my first and my favorite. The 757 was next. The 737 never did anything for me. The 757, to me, made you feel like what riding in a badass commercial airplane was like. Even my wife who is skittish about flying recognized when she took her first 757 flight last year. All that being said being older now I really like the A321 neo. Quiet and roomy.
I found the 321 cramped compared to the 757. Interesting
That purely depends on seat layout and internal design.
A few of the routes I used to ride 757s on with them are now 320/321 routes. Ran into a 757 for the first time in awhile back in December between ATL and RIC
They still fly the 757 between JAX and ATL also. With the only replacements from Boeing being either the now maligned 737 or the 787 (probably too big for that role) it looks to me like the A320 series will be it for Delta and others.
@@necroslair They have a lot of Boeing narrow bodies aside from 757. Large relatively new fleet 737-900ERs, 737-800s, and 100 Max 10's on order.
Ummmm does any one else have a secret crush on the 757 😂😂😂😂
I once flew on a 757 transatlantic. The most uncomfortable flight I have ever endured - and I have been on many in over 60 years of flying. I have also flown the A321neo transatlantic, and it was a very comfortable flight, quiet and smooth. The A321 simply is a far better passenger experience.
From an era when Boeing could build safe aircraft and profit wasnt the main priority.
Every business wants profit but Boeing’s problem is it focused on short term financial gain rather than long term sustainable profit. I blame the slavish devotion to catering to Southwest and Alaska’s single aisle preferences as the downfall. It lost focus on the future by being too loyal to old airframes. The 737 is from the 60s with a 707 and 727 style nose. It band-aided new technology on top of old designs so it didn’t have to go through new type certification. The MAX was the perfect example. The 737 frame limits the height of the landing gear which meant the MAX engines had to be mounted higher. That resulted in a higher pitch which was supposed to be constantly corrected by the MCAS software. See the problem? It is making the same mistakes with the 777-X.
I still think Delta may look at increasing the A321neo and A321LR order to replace the 757-200, possibly as many as 175 planes total. It has a similar carrying capacity to the 757-200 and almost identical range if you're talking the A321LR model, but at much lower fuel cost. Since Delta does service of the engines of the planes in-house, reliability of the engines is a less critical issue, too.
I am nor sure the 321LR has the same power capacity as the 757. So access into many airports, especially high/hot ones will likely be unmet and operational considerations may take precedence to retaining the 757
This isn't quite true. The LR and XLR can fit the same amount of seats as the 757, but they sacrifice range to do so.
To match the range they lose seats and overall payload capacity.
Both the LR and XLR cannot seat as many passengers, fill their bellies with luggage and cargo, then get airborne in with the same performance and fly the same distance the 757 can.
Was just on a Delta 321 - great overhead yet awful seats and that was 1st class. Too hard and felt cramped with legroom and closeness of seat rows. 757 on similar cross country route was more comfortable even in comfort plus.
They already have more than enough on order to replace the 757 between the 321NEO and Max 10. They have yet to show interest in the XLR. The use the 757 as a domestic work horse, not on transatlantic,
@@johniii8147 However, Delta was using the 757-200 on "thinner" transatlantic routes. The A321XLR would be perfectly suited for flying to less popular cities from both Atlanta and New York City, Delta's two main US East Coast hubs.
757 has a big thrust to weight ratio advantage. Airbus could do a slightly longer stretch and add engines with 7-10k lbs of additional thrust and they would have a winner. 757 still has an advantage in certain circumstances such as hot and high.
No such engine. High bypass engines on narrow body are in the 35,000 lb thrust . The high bypass engines in wide body planes start at about 60,000 lb thrust. Nothing in the 40,000 range that the 757 has. Boeing has been trying to get a manufacture to produce an engine but you are talking billions of dollars in design work. How many planes in this size will be sold (they sold about 2000 757s) That is only a few thousand engines. The engines on the 757 also were on early 747s and other 4 engines planes.
Good point and this is where I was going PW, GE, RR or CFM have an opportunity to make something to fill a need. If Boeing or Airbus asked for it the engine manufacturers could produce something in short order. The A220 has a better thrust to weight ratio versus the A321neo
@mrcommonsense5650 Apparently, the RR ultrafan is scalable to this range (and for the rest of the A320 family)
How soon it could be developed if there was sufficient demand, I do not know.
Actually turned out to be a disadvantage on most routes.
7-10k pounds of what. The engines are maxed out. The a321 neo is maxed out. The 757 isn’t going anywhere. Do uses old footage he took from LAX 7 years ago. HE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT AVIATION. The 757 is. Midlife right now 70-90k hours 20-50k cycles the LOV is 75k 150k hours. The A321 would not work in Central America or Europe or The west Coast the freight they carry is huge. Stop your STUPID
DL has done an amazing job keeping these birds looking young. Even more greatness in their ability to remain agile and flex them around the demand on usual 737/a320/321 routes.
The 757 has always been a favorite of mine since its introduction. Wherever I flew and depending on the airline I would always book a 757 flight.
Since DL is my hometown airline, I’m finding they’ve placed the A321 on many of the routes I usually fly out of ATL on the 757. A few times I was to be on the 757-300 to find it had been swapped for a -200 either at the last minute or due to scheduling. That’s always been a disappointment.
I look at it this way, if it’s not broken, why fix it? At first, I thought it was odd that DL hasn’t begun to replace the 757 and then I realized it’s a true workhorse for them and gets the job done. For years I had wished Boeing would reopen a production line for the 757. She will truly be missed when and if she is sent out to pasture.
One last thing, DL seems to be holding onto their 767-300s and 767-400s as well. Two other personal favorites I don’t get to fly on as much anymore.
The decision to drop the B757 without any real replacement plane was the first big mistake from the Boeing management. Then they decided to develop the dangerous and, yes somehow lethal B737 Max. In a panic move in reaction to the launch of the Airbus A320/321 Neo...not to mention the termination of merger talks with Embraer. And today Boeing is struggling to keep in the race in the single aisle market with poor quality B737 Max planes...mistakes after mistakes lead the present situation....
The 757 went out of production a decade before the MAX launched. Boeing shutting down the 757 line made perfect sense at the time because they didn't have any orders coming or any on the horizon. It was impossible to predict that a decade later, more airlines were flying point to point and started serving smaller markets with overseas routes. In 2002 all overseas routes were served with widebody aircraft. Hindsight being 20/20, Boeing would have kept the 757s going if they knew the market would shift towards the 75s unique capabilities. So, in this regard, I don't blame Boeing for their decision back in 2002.
@@toms1348 then they should prepare the next generation of single aisle, not mess up with the horrific B737 Max in a panic move to the launch of the A320/321 Neo....
But A321CEO easily outsold 757 by 80% despite not even close to 757's capability. For Boeing, their sold half as many 739 but without the cost to keep a separate line, while MAX10 already outsell 757 even before its EIS.
757's capabilities. What the market actually need is a people mover with good unit cost, not an expensive almighty aircraft.
Having flown as a pilot on both aircraft, the 757 is clearly a superior aircraft in every way except fuel burn.. Delta even says they cannot get rid of it due to there is no replacement for it.period. Incontrovertible .
Now, the reason they just cannot re-engineering the 757 is the cost. The 757 and C17 are the only 2 planes who use the PW2037…. Engine manufactures will make a GTF but due to limited production, (airlines won’t commit) the cost would be prohibitive. Airlines will not spend the extra money when a plane that does 85% of the same job is available and is way cheaper. All production tooling exists. At Boeing. They could make a 707 if they want to today.
The 321 is a great plane, it’s just not as good as a 757. Sad the 757 is getting old…. Boeing really missed this and mostly due to SW not letting Boeing produce the 737 NG with the 757 cockpit. This really killed Boeing…AWST did a great article on this subject.
Very accurate presentation.
I suspect that if engines of a suitable power became available to replace those on the 757, Airbus could fit them to their lighter A321 and presumable then out‐perform the heavier 757 in all areas.
@@neilpickup237 Nope.
You still have the limitations of the wings. They CANNOT carry the same weight as those on the 757
@@bmused55 Apparently, the RR Ultrafan is designed to be lighter than existing engines.
In which case, the A320 series wings may require no more than minimal strengthening to cope.
There are also rumours that Airbus is working on new wings for the A321. Presumably loading requirements for future engines will have been taken into account.
@@neilpickup237 The engine weight is not the problem. The issues (primarly) are wing volume and center fuel tank volume.
To match or go beyond 757 performance to have an answer to the remaining 15% cases A321(X)LR cannot take over, you need much more fuel *instead of waisting the lower deck cargo for additional fuel tanks.* Current A321 wings and center tanks aren't enough to have both range, *payload* and decent takeoff/climb capabilities (we note 757 fuel capacity is way above A321 without cargo mounted tanks, thanks to wings volume and aft center tank). Since you'll add fuel weight, you inevitably require wing strengthening, which further eats on wing volume : *that's the current A321 design limit, you can't proceed.* Therefore, you need an *entirely new wing,* with more volume, more surface for lift, cleaner for sustained cruise, and strong enough (more volume used by dead materials) for all the extra weight, most likely a twin bogey main landing gear as well.
You nailed it in the end, new wings, Airbus was ready for such a step long ago, right from the early stages of the NEO design. The only reason why Airbus is waiting is whether or not Boeing actually attempts to propose something slightly bigger than a 737Max10 or a true 757 successor. In the first case, Airbus won't do anything since a 737 based design without new wings will inevitably face the same dead end as the A321Neo, that would kill Boeing narrow body program (and since the 737 is so cursed today...) In the second case, with an all new Boeing narrow body design, or eventually 737/757 based fuselage (they're the same) with new wings, it will *entirely depend on airlines demand.* While Boeing will struggle to stage an entire new production line, Airbus will focus on just new wings/undercarriage and fuselage strengthening, introducing both the A321Next, the A322 and possibly the A323.. In any case, it's Airbus's win, at that point, A321 type commonality will be long out of the question where Boeing will invest in an entirely new type rating.....
That's why there will be NO 757 successor. What about airlines like Delta? Well, they'll have to adapt, use A321/Max10, or 767/787 trading fuel and/or payload for performance and vice versa, or add a technical stop wherever applies (most likely). They'll have to adapt because not having a 757 successor for the 15% edge cases of current 757 fleet *is not a valid reason to doom Boeing narrow body program to bankruptcy* then fire 30000 employees...
Talking about the 767, that's the only program Boeing has NO competitor whatsoever... If I were Boeing, 767Max new wings and engines, that should be the way to go... Similarly to the 737 classics to NG upgrade, Boeing wouldn't have to setup an entirely new line assembly, could work hard to reduce 767 classics to 767Max type qualification with standardized cockpit/systems between 767/787/777, propose a shorter version like the 767-200 as a more efficient answer (financially) to the need of a 220 two class airliner able to fly 6000nm from high altitude airports with short runways while carrying full cargo, parking spots/wingspan is a very minor issue. This would cause more harm to Airbus than insisting on further upgrades on 737/757.
@StephenKarl_Integral
I agree with everything you have written.
However, I think that you may have misunderstood me, possibly because my comment was part of a conversation and split into two parts, or that I could have been a little clearer.
When referring to performance, I was only referring to the fact that there are no current engines available to give the required 'thrust to weight ratio' required to match that single aspect of the 757s performance.
Whether Airbus, or anyone else needs to, or even should try to match this aspect of the 757's performance, is another question altogether.
I suspect that there may be insufficient demand to make it worthwhile. Especially if even more of those airports with short runways where the 757 is needed extend them to keep those connections.
Also, weight reductions and (if technology allows), wings capable of producing more lift at take-off without adversely affecting cruise performance may narrow any shortfall and thus demand for a true 757 replacement even further.
As you stated, there are workarounds, and airlines need to adapt to what is available when the manufacturers can not or will not produce something matching their wishes at a price they are prepared to pay.
You mentioned a twin bogie undercarriage. This shouldn't be a problem (apart from the additional fuselage space taken up). Airbus produced a twin bogie version of the A320 to allow an Indian airline to operate from rather weak runways.
They also had an option for front airstairs like those on the 737, but examples of those are very rare.
As for the 767, if Boeing were to 'MAX' it with new wings and engines, etc., I just wonder how cost-effective and profitable it would be for Airbus to 'MIN' (for example) the A330neo including optimised wings down to the size of the A300/A310?
Presumably, now that they are now an established manufacturer with a track record, Airbus would expect a much higher market share than they previously had.
I also suspect that not having to do the firefighting Boeing have, Airbus have been working on (and updating) plans to respond to anything Boeing may do to harm their market position.
I know that opinion is divided over the MAX, but sometimes, admittedly controversially, I wonder if the 'big mistake' might actually have been the NG?
The 321neo is the perfect replacement for US domestic 757 routes because its capacity and range are the same as many of the 757s used by Delta. The A321 LRs and ULRs probably can fill the passenger and range needs of the longer range 757s Delta uses (inherited from TWA) but the problem with replacing the 757s is more than just capacity and range. The 757 has an incredible payload capacity that the 321s can’t touch. The 321neo perfectly meets the passenger and range needs but falls short in the all important cargo business side of it. The 757 can haul up to 50% more cargo than the 321 and that is significant revenue. Don’t be surprised if Airbus rolls out a A322 variant that addresses that issue.
The 737-900 and later the MAX 10 have also served as replacements.
@@johniii8147 in capacity yes, but the 737-900 and Max 9 has even more limited payload capacity than the A321. The Max 10 is a capacity replacement for the 757 and Delta’s 737-900s are really replacing the aging 800s. Delta has bought the 321 CEO and 737-900 at bargain low prices and got exclusive engine maintenance rights in the US on the Max 10 and 321 Neo. However, there is still a missing opportunity cost with the decrease payload abilities.
@@ryanthomas887 No they are not to replace the 800s. they have not retired a singe on despite having 163 900's. They also just kicked off cabin refurbishment for the entire fleet of 800's so they will be around for years.
@@johniii8147 just like the 777s stuck around forever after refurbishing? The 737-800s are 20-25 years old. A lot of their routes are being replaced by the 737-900 as Delta upgages aircraft.
i think delta will conclude retiring the 757 in 2034, the last 757 unit would have 30 years
In this industry you cant predict that far in the future.
Exactly@@johniii8147. Five years ago the same was said about md-88 and md-90 - stick around until 2025-2027. They went out quickly when demand dropped. Even AA with the a330, b757/67 fleet. Granted I'm sure AA at times kicks themselves giving up 757 and a332 versatility even as a smaller charter/flex fleet for demand shifts.
Ty dj!!
The airbus can do most of the 75s mission as far as the bean counters go in all but two areas.....additional cargo capacity and hot/high/short field performance. As an Aeronautical engineering minor (Mechanical engineer major) i did a technical paper highlighting what the A321 can and can't do like the 757 for a Aerodynamics In Real World Operations course. In short, the A321s wing is its "Achilles" heel when using it as a 75 replacement. It doesn't provide near the lift nor fuel carrying capacity as the supercritical wing used on the 75. The later which explains why aux tanks and extended center tanks which impeed into the cargo areas on the LR and XLR are used. Basicallly as it is based on the a320 wing the a321 is about as long as you can stretch the fuselage before major gear modifications would be needed for rotation issues. (Just like the 737-900ER) Why does this matter? Because arguably the most important 757 and certainly most profitable ( AND longest) version the -300 series (due to its unbelievable CASM) has no NB replacement from Airbus or Boeing currently.
Here's the catch, Airbus has been a head of Boeing nearly every step of the way with the 21. The A321 was once one of Airbuses poorest performing NBs in sales, only the A318 being worse. But unlike Boeing (who closed the 75 line), Airbus kept the A321 in production as they bet that it not the 737-900ER or any other Boeing product would be the successor to the 75 (even if the earlier non sharklet models performance were far below the 75s)
They introduced sharklets which gave the wing less drag and better fuel economy and then the Neos arrived and it was game over for Boeing......but even in XLR form the A321 Neo is still not a true 75 replacement and Airbus knows it. It can do 95 or maybe more percent of the 75 mission which will be good enough for most airlines. But what about those like Delta.....? Should they just accept what the market has available as DJ hinted at here?
Airbus says "no" as they realized what the Achilles of the 321 is and they've already started addressing it. Airbus has started r&d on an all new extended span wing which could even employ the use of folding wing tips similar to those on the 777x. Supposedly it not only produces the lift of the 75 with similar fuel carrying capacity but it does it with a significant efficiency boost in fuel economy due to its lower drag coefficients. In short the aircraft that this wing shows up on will be a game changer. Combine it with slighltly more powerfu yet efficient Leap and GTF powerplants and this folks could be the true 75 replacement Delta wants. I predict the 757s true replacement will not be a Boeing NB (though a NB 787 produced with the 787-8 circa 767/757 would have been perfect) and it will not be an Airbus A321. I predict its replacement will be what some are calling the Airbus A322...... And heres something that should really scare Boeing....what if that wing found its way onto the A320 and/or larger A220 aircraft......bye bye 737.
I think another reason why Delta has no plans on retiring the jet compared to United is maybe based on the engine type. The RB211 which was the most popular option for the 757 is a heavy fuel burner compared to the PW2000. The RB211 is also much older since it was used since 1969, compared to the PW being introduced in 1981. According to Pratts website their engine is 6% more efficient which barely seems like anything but it’s a bigger topic today. The PW has the fuel burn ratio around the same as the CFM56 so it’s technically still not an intense fuel burner.
jet2 airline in the uk, got 36 years out of its boeing 757, still get the job done,
The rocket ship is my favorite plane.
For years I flew from TPA to MPS and returned weekly on Northwest airlines.
Then they merged with Delta bringing 61 757's to the party.
Now the route is served by 737's and 321:s. You can keep them.
Send the 737’s and A321’s to the desert, buy and restore all the desert 757’s possible.
Definitely the right decision until they can get more A321 Neos. I fly on both often and I can now say the 321neo can be the replacement not the CEO
Big chunk of them will be replaced by MAX 10
If that’s what works for them then go for it. It’s reliable and fits their needs.
Yh airline I worked had at one time a large fleet of 75,s. They were brilliant, fast and reasonably frugal they rarely went out of trim and where very reliable that’s before you factor in their performance which was outstanding. The reason my airline got rid of them? Because they where loose bags loading as aircraft and management wanted an aircraft which could be pallet loaded, management do not always make the right decisions for the right reasons. I have flown on 75,s many dozens of times
Airbus should seriously develop the A322 stretch.
I think an A322 stretch is unlikely to happen, it would have to have a longer landing gear and completely different wings, basically a different aircraft in the mid section. The A321 required a few changes to the wing design and it neared the max fuselage length it could safely have.
The A320 series wing is maxed out. If they stretch the fuselage any more, they need new wings. And if you're doing that, might as well start a new clean sheet design.
Add tandom gear just like the 757.
@@Perich29, a double bogey landing gear would probably be required with a further stretched A320. That would change the wing and wing box entirely. It'd be a completely new aircraft
Not likely to happen. The A320 series is at its limit. Frankly, I think the XLR is pushing it. Given how long it's taking to certify, I'm wondering of Aibus is having design issues.
I woudn't call 39 years "about half a century" :-)
the ideal solution would be an a322 with a new wing, & more range than an xlr.
Definitely!
The ideal solution would be a 757X, but Boeing got rid of all those expensive old guys that could design it. They should have done that instead of the horrendously awful 737MAX series.
IMHO it would NOT be an ideal solution for Airbus, at least not yet.
The current neo backlog is about 10 years.
@@chiad25
Airbus should hire engineers & build two & three more production lines for A321 line & possible persuade a third engine supplier to come say RR so that if there is a problem with one or two engine suppliers then it doesn’t affect their production & deliveries
Or Boeing 737 max 11.
I got to be on board Delta Airlines B757 last year
I was hoping you’d talk more about the reason why the 757 is hard to replace. But I guess one conclusion is airlines will just have to accept that the NEO can do most of the things that the 757 can. And for the things it can’t do… they will have to find a different airplane
Delta is only replacing a portion of its 757 fleet with the A321 neo, with the remaining 757 to not be retired at this time. If delta orders more a321 neo then the 757 could be reduced to transatlantic routes until they are fully retired.
Admittedly, I didn't fully appreciate the 757 back in its heyday. It has, though, proven to be a reliable workhorse for decades, and pilots seem to love it. Delta has certainly gotten its money's worth out of the 757. It represents a time when Boeing was at its height regarding quality, reliability, and safety. With those days seemingly past, I hope that Delta will leverage their size to encourage Airbus to produce a more perfect replacement for the 757.
Make a 757 max with the Dreamliner engines
Reminds me of the Bakerloo line 72TS stock!
Are you talking dirty?
The only way to truly replace the Boeing 757 is with ANOTHER Boeing 757. Sadly, Boeing made that decision to axe the production line and destroy the tooling for this venerable (and quite attractive) airliner. With a nod to the 727's versatility, the 757 only did the same job better. I am sure that Boeing had surprised themselves with the success of the airliner once they had studied the numbers that came back from the airlines that operated them, and knowing that their solid engineering had put themselves far ahead of the competition sadly had put them in a position of resting on their laurels when in fact they could have done more to offer airlines newer options over time. As it is known in the industry, these classic Boeing jets were massively overbuilt, and gave everyone a sense that anything coming up against it in competition will fall flat on its face. Kudos to Airbus for marketing and selling the A321NEO, but let's be real: their planes can NEVER outperform the Boeing 757. What makes the Flying Pencil such a huge success by its own right is still a well-kept secret, and Russia's reverse-engineering the plane to make their TU-214s only proved that they could not match the Boeing.
Yes they should still keep the 757s and the 767s as well they both are great planes and they could even takeoff on short runways and great performance 💯
We all know that Delta are good in keeping older planes safely flying, so I have no doubt they could be doing this with the 757.
But one factor that is key there is the price for fuel. Compared to an A21 neo, the 757s are gas guzzlers. So with increasing fuel prices, operating them will be even more and more costly, and at some point replacing them will just be the more economic option.
The operational efficiencies over & above those 727s in the 80s when the757 was introduced was quite incredible. However, A better seat/mile performance than an A321neo-- I find that very hard to believe.
That's because it's not true. The 321Neo has a 20-25% operating cost advantage.
@@johniii8147difference being the 75’s are owned outright versus financed/leased 321s giving the financial edge to the 75.
I’m not a big fan of Boeing but I love the 757 it’s an irreplaceable aircraft.
Nonsense! (no insult intended)
ALL remaining significant 757 (PAX!) users have placed orders in the meantime to replace their 757s, and ALL have ordered the A321neo.
DELTA, UNITED (XLR), AMERICAN (XLR), CONDOR, ICELANDAIR (XLR), JET2.
Many 757s will survive though for several years as medium sized cargo aircraft.
Like your said, the A321 is not a good replacement for the 757. It might be more economic to operate, but it falls short on almost every numbers the 757 offers.
The only close competitor from Airbus would be the A330-800, but I doubt the bigger engines of the heavier A330 could made it a competitive proposition.
Guess both Boeing and Airbus must work on a new bigger narrow body or smaller wide body. I also think this might be a golden opportunity for Boeing to design a new versatile aircraft that would replace both the 737 and 757. Boeing desperately needs something there. The 757 is old and the 737 should have been replaced 30 years ago or so.
A321 has a wider cabin than the very narrow 757
i think the way to view the current situation with this is to compare it to a car. lets say youve got a honda civic and live in london. it needs a new clutch but its ULEZ compliant. is it better to go out and buy a new civic which will be better on fuel but the cost to buy or lease is a lot, or is it better to spend a much smaller amount and put the new clutch in and keep the old one on the road? i think for delta atm, since it's a workhorse not a personal car, are thinking about what is cheaper. Their 757s most likely will have too many pressurisation cycles now to go into cargo service so will most likely be scrapped at the end of their life, like Jet2's, so there isn't really much value to be lost
A321 NEO or any A321 would not attend a chance if Boeing had clever decision makers.
It would as it would have been cheaper
That's the entire problem. They should have given their workhorses a complete overhaul ages ago, just like Airbus did. But they became complacent and then kneejerked when Aibus came out with the A320 neo family. Boeing's solution: slap new engines on old planes, fix any issues with software and voila! And we all know how that one ended... Boeing used to be the golden standard of aviation and now it's become a mere shadow of its former self :(
Corporate and executive greed plus Wall Street have been Boeing's major problem. Boeing's decision makers are accountants.
@@thehighlander959 Ed Bastian (CEO of DELTA Air Lines) is an accountant too. "The company speaks to me by its numbers" is his mantra.
But DELTA under his leadership is highly successful.
Boeing is not.
I wish they still had the 757. If they did, the 737 Max 9 would not be needed
Delta has a solid maintenance base and support for the 757. The destinations I've flown to on 757s have issues with A321 operations. They can land easily but taking off fully laden presents problems the 757 just doesn't have due to the larger wing and higher power to weight vs the a321 which is just a little smaller but has tiny stubby wings and underpowered engines.
It doesn’t matter, there is a number of compression cycles a airliner can support
@@Raul-ll3yk no it doesn't. The only reason cycles begin to matter is when it becomes to too costly to inspect and repair. Costs vs value. Any aircraft can fly indefinitely with the right amount of maintenance and deep pockets. Cycles are just a way of measuring wear and tear.
@@Raul-ll3yk Inexpensive inHouse maintenance at Delta makes these aircraft still a valued asset in Delta's arsenal. I guarantee you if Delta did not have that, they would have retired the 757 years ago.
@@antonyh37 learn about metal fatigue. Also, there is a point when repairing is just too expensive ….
@@Raul-ll3yk oh I know all too well about metal fatigue. I took a few courses in college for that for my engineering degree. You didn't read my other response. Money is the main deal. Deep pockets and the right tools can fix pretty much anything. Delta had a 757 that bent the fuselage on a hard landing a few years ago. The damage was extensive. It was repaired and returned to service. That same aircraft at another airline would have likely been scrapped. So with the right maintenance support and tools anything is possible. It just depends on how much your willing to spend.
I flew on the Delta 757 a couple of times in 2019, and it was a really comfortable flight each time. Not to mention, the 757 is legendary in the narrow body community. Above all, it's proven to be a reliable, and safe airframe for decades. the A321 NEO is a great aircraft, but just won't quite be able to fill the shoes left behind by the 757 in my humble opinion.
You simply need to do the research before you post. That would made your opinion much less humble and more prepared.
If you use e.g. flightradar24 or radarbox, you will find that DELTA use 757-200s on quite short domestic and some Caribean routes. DELTA has ordered plenty of A321neos (with 70 remaining options), but NOT ONE XLR, since they do not need it for the 757 replacement.
Boeing fans are heated 😂. Whats wrong?😅
They are silly brand fanboys, that's what's wrong. Obviously the same applies to Airbus fanboys.
Yours in the only infantile fanboy comment so far. So, yeah
Back in the late 70s Delta upgraded its fleet of DC8-61s to DC8-71s to fly them longer. I wonder if that would be a feasable option to extend the life of the 757.
Good question
Unfortunately, not at the moment.
There are no current engines of sufficient power to replace those on the 757.
Should suitable engines become available, presumably Airbus could fit them to the lighter A321, which could then not just match the 757, but if required, outperform it.
No and no intention to.
Keep it! It is almost as good as the B-52.
Grandpa Buff gonna outlive the heat death of the Universe.
I don't see A321 is B757 competitor unless A321 extended 2-3 meters as A322
What a out the fuel consumption???
The A321 is the replacement of the 757(-200).
It was a competitor until 2004 (when Boeing management pulled the plug and scrapped the 757 manufacturing line)
While not a perfect replacement… a combination of A321 Neos and maybe… MAYBE the A330-800 could make a good job filling the gap of the 757-200s, 300s and 767-300s. While retaining a good level of fleet commonality
First of all, Boeing was wrong in shutting down the 757 in favor of the 737. I loved the 757!
Looking at today's options, DL needs to replace the A321LR or XLR. These 2 aircrafts will be the most logical replacement for the 757. Longer range more passengers, and more fuel efficient. This would enable DL to fly more international routes (with the XLR) that do not justify a wide body aircraft
Great reporting love the 757
Delta didn't retire the 727 until 2000 so that was a long replacement horizon!
Delta = one of the best airlines around. Boeing 757 has no equal. They work well for the airlines and the passengers like them.
I think keeping the 757 makes sense if they like it so much.
In what aspect besides performance in hot and high airports does the 757-200 (-300 has higher capacity as well but is pretty rare) have an advantage over the A321 LR/XLR? I can‘t think of anything other than that but I‘m genuinely curious. Is the performance issue the only thing that prevents that A321 LR/XLR from being the „perfect“ replacement for the 757? It‘s not like Delta is a complete Boeing loyalist either and it‘s destroying Delta‘s fleet commonality or sth (which is maybe an argument for other airlines?).
The LR and XLR sacrifice range for seats, or seats for range. Neither can seat as many passengers, fill their bellies with luggage and cargo, then get airborne with the same performance and fly the same distance the 757 can.
So if you need the seats but not the range or the range but not the seats, the LR and XLR will work.
Need both? 757 is your plane.
@@bmused55Delta has only 168 seats on their transatlantic 757’s, same as the 321xlr
@@bmused55 But 757 is also 10t heavier while burns 30% more fuel, which means even if it has higher MTOW, much is for carrying the extra weight and fuel. In practise A321LR's range is no shorter than 757, while A321XLR should be longer.
I can tell you one route that the 321 might struggle with that Delta typically used the 757-200 on: ATL-SNA. The 321 wouldn't be able to do that route fully loaded, with that extremely short runway.
@@LoneWolfSparty The question is whether it justifies the extra cost of operating the 757. Especially when A321NEO burns 30% less while the performance gap is much narrower than A321CEO.
757>A321Neo imo.
The flying pencil is a horrible experience long haul. I will go out of my way to avoid it. The A321 is about 10” wider than the 757 and certainly more comfortable on the flights I have done…
@KensoranAV May I ask why?
I was less than impressed by Delta's 757 on a few transatlantic flights I did with it. Can't see how the A321 would be worse than that. I used to love the 757 on short high frequency routes like what Iberia was doing with their Barcelona-Malaga flights end of the 90's. They took off like rockets on those short flights where they were so light. On a long heavy flight, their performance at take-off is the same as the A321 and the Airbus wins on noise and the slightly roomier cabin.
@@chiad25 Just my opinion, it was incredible for its time and still more iconic.
Why does the screen keep turning black lol
I think Delta will hold on to them until they reach their max cycles. They could replace their whole -200 fleet today with A321NEOs on domestic routes, ordering the XLR for those transatlantic routes. Although they could replace the 200s, nobody has a -300 replacement yet.
Within the DELTA context, the natural replacement for the 757-300 would be the A330-800 (which they have not ordered yet)
DELTA has a hodgepodge of medium sized airliners that could be replaced by this very type: 767-300ER, 767-400ER, the sait 757-300, aging A330-200 and -300. Replacing them all 1:1 would allow an order of no less than 120 A330neo frames.
I think Delta will eventually come around too ordering some A321XLR's sooner or later too replace the 757s because pretty soon their not gonna have a choice because the 757 tho is a Great aeroplane but they are getting up there in age so yea Delta isn't gonna be able to keep them around forever 🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️💯💯💯💯💯
DELTA today use the 757s mostly for shorter domestic flights and to the Caribean. DALTAs' A321neo are mostly dispatched on longer routes compared to the venerable B jets. A321neos are sent to Hawaii frequently, 757s are not (not any more, as it looks). 757s are no longer sent to Europe.
It's the sunset years of the PAX 757. Even an aged A321ceo can do what DELTA today use them for.
I fly the 757 for Delta. The 321NEO and really nothing else comes close to the mighty 757. We take off from SNA totally full with loads of cargo and fly trans con to ATL. Try that Airbus. We also depart LAS in the summer nearly full when the Airbus is payload optimized to 50 pax. The 757 also has twice the amount of brakes and main tires as it’s competitors and approach’s the runway nearly 25kts slower than the 737-900ER. Nothing can do what the 757 does and I look forward to operating it for years to come.
Regarding raw performance and capability, the A321neo XLR is the better plane, but the capacity and passenger ergonomics onboard the 757 are simply not there on the neo; I personally prefer flying on the 757s. With that being said, the 1085 nm gained for 34 passengers lost makes the XLR better from a business standpoint.
I’m sorry- If I’m an airline CEO today I’m not giving Boeing another cent until they toss out every penny-pinching, bean-counting Jack Welch disciple left at Boeing, put the engineers back in charge, and get back to what made them such an innovative and trusted company for so many decades
And then build clean sheet designs for the whole shebang. 21st century airplanes for the 21st century.
Who am I to say keeping the 757 for an extended period is wrong ? But I will say that the story that Delta is keeping their 57's for awhile longer, DOESNT SURPRISE ME at all. Look back at the 1980s. They were still flying the DC8 (reengined to CFM). They didn't start phasing them out until after they acquired Western Airlines
DELTA had kept the number of 757-200s constant at 111 over years, and the 767-300 at 44.
But since early 2024, the 757 numbers are down by 2 and the 767 by 1. In the meantime through end of May, the inventory of A321neos has increased by 12.
It was the beginning of the end.
Great point. It’s the thrust class that is the issue. The 321 uses an engine in a different thrust class than a 757. Way smaller. The 757 has a 250+ takeoff weight depending on the particular model. Also, compared to the 737-8-9, the 757 has a 20kt slower approach speed. Smaller margin with the 321N. Calculated on our LPR (landing performance report) required for all Airbus landings but not the 757, we stop 2-4000 feet shorter without brake fans.
The 320 series cannot take the 10000 extra thrust per engine(ballpark) figure. Don’t get me wrong, the 321 is awesome, just not in the 757 over built category.
I would like to see A321LR/XLR with a better range than the a321neo actually the neo has 4026 LR has 4000, XLR 4700 MILE RANGE SO Delta should order 250 XLR’S for B757 replacement and 200 A330-900’s for B767 replacement
single isle 787 is the new 757X. Boeing would be suicidal to not down size the 787 as they did with the 767 years ago.
the a321 doesnt have the same payload capacity as the 757. Airbus would have to figure that out or make a bigger maybe A322
The freighter conversions of the 757 have indeed a significantly higher payload than their A321 equivalents. However, this higher payload is the result of the more powerful (but also more thursty) engines and the bigger wings, both of which made the venerable Boeing more expensive to operate.
Boeing gave up on it's Golden child too soon. The " Ferrari of the airways" was a near perfect jet but they discontinued it's production. 😢 She will be a reminder to "today's" Boeing of how grand and glorious they once were. Like when an old boyfriend or girlfriend dumps you then they realize years later, that they made a mistake. As much as I'd love for them to re-start the 757 line, I wouldn't want this version of Boeing to be involved lest they turn this beautiful princess of a jet into another "death capsule ". 😮 The old time 737 was a cute and reliable jet for her time but she was stretched to the max. ( Pun intended). The management needs to get their focus back and remember what a great company they used to be.
Another area Boeing has missed the mark. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a die hard Boeing fan, but they should have continued with the 757, rather than trying to cover it with the 737.
Icelandair had the same good fortune as Delta in choosing the 757 for it's fleet for decades. When the 757 started fading (number of cycles & fuel efficiency) Icelandair made a disastrously wrong bet: The 737 MAX!
Boeing is run by idiots! The type they SHOULD have tried to take into a modern efficient-engine future should have been the 757 and the widebody version, the 767, NOT the ancient 737 with it's stubby landing gear that called for disastrous gymnastics in using these large-diameter engines. The 757/767 with their tall landing gear would have had no problem accommodating the newer and larger engines - the same qualities that has allowed Airbus to modernize their A320 series without major problems.
Then again, profit-not-safety-driven Being would probably have mucked up the quality of a re-engineered 757/767 as well!
I suspect the 737 MAX (and 787) quality issues will be the death of Boeing.
Good decision considering the boeing 737 issues
DELTA SHOULD ORDER A321 XLR (100) .
Isn't the A321XLR pretty much a B757 in range and capacity? I actually believe it has a further range.
Not capacity. The difference that Airbus still hadn't figured out (because if their need for aux fuel tanks) is how to bring the passengers their bags AND additional cargo like the 75 can. The wing is the A321s Achilles heal as it does not provide the lift nor the fuel carrying capacity of the 75 (again why you have aux fuel tanks/larger center tanks which are taking valuable cargo compartment real-estate in the NEOLR and XLR).
The 757 is not coming back. The talented engineers who designed it are either long retired or dead. The folks at Boeing now cant even figure out how to install a door properly let alone design something like a new version 757. Delta would be wise to go out and buy the highest grade aircraft tape to keep the 757 together. Perhaps if they had, a wheel would not have recently fell off. That said, it is still light years safer than the Max planes.
Thing is a tank one of the reasons I fly delta
Airbus covering every niche in the market while Boeing is out of options with the 737Max.
The A321XLR can do either the same seating capacity or the same range. It cannot match the 757 on both. And on the range, it has to have extra fuel tanks put in the belly, limiting payload.
At the moment, the only 1 to 1 replacement for the 757 is a 757!
The need for a 757 replacement was obvious some time ago, sadly Boeing's management are incompetent and looking for quick returns on investment to keep the shareholders happy.
AA kept their MD80s around long after most retired them because the costs of maintenance were lower than the payments for new aircraft. The pilot pool was mature and plentiful.
Delta will be in the same boat with the 757. They are bought and paid for with an established parts inventory, maintenance expertise and pilot pool.
Newer is not ALWAYS better.
after flying the mighty and very useful 757 and shifting over to the 321 Neo, I can tell you “A B757 it is not”
Delta's B757's are CASH COWS and I hope the usual updates and upgrades will keep them safe and flying for a decade more, at least.
I think delta won’t get rid of the 757 because the A321 just doesn’t have the range the 757 does. I think delta should fly the 757 on their longer routes the A321 can’t fly and just fly the A321 on those shorter routes it can fly. What does anyone else think?
Range isn’t the issue. The 321neos Delta has have the same range and capacity as many of the domestic 757s. The problem is the 321 can’t match the 757 payload capacity and engine thrust. The 757 can carry 50% more cargo; it can carry more and use less runway. The cargo capacity of the 757 and its engine thrust make it extremely versatile and profitable.
@@ryanthomas887 I looked into it and realized I made a mistake, you are definitely correct!
@@JD-Films1 well some of Delta’s 757s have a range up to 4,700 nm (the TWA 757s it acquired) so you are correct with regards to those planes.
They should start making thee again
Composite seeing, new engine.
Just do it, the max is dead
From a customer perspective, I prefer the 757 to the A321. I don’t believe I have been on the Delta 321NEO product, but the 757 is a better experience than the 321CEO from a comfort perspective. And the luggage bins are far superior.
Likely the 321neo will allow for cheaper tickets
I wonder how this is possible when a321 hull is wider than of 757
@@CaptainDangeaxbecause it isn’t factually correct? For me, the flying pencil is an utterly horrible experience long haul. I’ve only flown the A321 for a 5-hour flight and it was better, although I haven’t yet done anything longer…..
@@CaptainDangeax The B757 and the B737 shares the same fuselage cross-section.
The A321 is wider than the B757. 3.70 meters (12.1 feet) vs 3.54 meters (11.7 feet).
Of course the A321neo is more comfortable than the B757.
Wait for the A321 XLR....
I know best boeing 757 need new bulid
The bean counters wouldn't allow it. They closed production in 2003 because there were no orders. They didn't consult their crystal call. Now they have nothing for the middle market.
I don't understand why they would stop 757 production but the only rational thought i could come up with is that the 757 by design, threatens the 767, 777 & 787 program. The 757 has the potential to match an A350 if it's maxed out, so probably thats why Boeing dropped the program because they built an aircraft that was way ahead of its time.
Why sell a future proof aircraft that meets all your needs in one package when you can sell sub-par aircraft that require fleet changes every decade when flight trends and demand change 😅🤑
Plenty in the U.S. were pushing for a direct 757 replacement. Instead, Boeing extended the 737 series: Seems to be going really well for them, hey?
🙄
No carriers were not pushing for it.
Delta airline have also place order on 737max 10 beside the Airbus A321xlr to replace the 757. I personally think that Delta should replace the 757 with a fleet of A321XLR.
They do not have the XLR on order. They do not use the 757 on transatlantic routes.
They do use the 75 international just not transatlantic
Unlike 737, 757 could host cost effective engines like leap1a like a321neo
Unfortunately, the LEAP and P&W geared turbofans can not deliver sufficient power for the heavier 757.
@@neilpickup237 that's the meaning of the word "like". Btw, leap1b delivers less power than leap1a because of dwarf legs under the 737. And you should check your numbers before posting to avoid embarrassing yourself. Max take off weight 99800 kgs for b757 and 101000 kgs for a321xlr
I wish Boeing could come up with a B757-200 replacement like a B757 TWIN AISLE with the same range or better like B757neo or B757-500, BOEING needs to cool it with the Boreing 737, wake up Boeing
They did. It's called the767
Both Delta and United are the two last US operators of the Boeing 757. I think Delta is losing out on a superior type of airplane if you ask me and the unfortunate thing is that it is quite old right now. The 757 will be sorely missed because of it's short-take-off and was a "clean" airplane for flight crews to handle. The A321-NEO, despite it being a good seller and Airbus' cash-cow, it still doesn't impress me.
Coming from someone who works with the 757 and the 321-neo the NEO in my opinion is junk honestly really poorly designed as far as weight and balance go and poorly engineered fuel tank placement and lack of sufficient isolation so loading is a hassle. the 757 is old yes but my air line maintains them very well and has retrofitted them to look modern the only thing the 321-neo has on the 757 is fuel economy but it lacks range, speed, and cargo capacity.
That 757 looks like it's about to split in half lol
the 757 seems to be a really good fit for US carriers. maybe with the flaws of the MAX series, boeing will consider an update.
What flaws?
They wont. It is LONG dead. 18 years now
Unfortunately, the time to have given the 757 a refresh has long passed. It's been out of production since 2004 and the production line has been converted over to other products. Boeing really should have either made a refresh of the 757, or perhaps created a scaled down version of the 787 to act as a 757 replacement, but it didn't, so now quite a few airlines who have the 757 don't have a lot of options beyond the bigger members of the A320Neo family, which are good planes, but not an exact replacement.
The 757 is way stronger and better than the airbus. The airbus is built in Europe, and is not as safe as Boeing because they have different safety standards. Also the airbus is controlled by computer screens and the pilots are really not flying it. In airbus everything is all automatic and the pilots do not really know to fly it. In Boeing, the pilots are better because they have yokes. Airbus is like a joystick or video game. My dad says he will never fly airbus because he doesn’t trust planes made overseas.
Why is B757 so important??? Too narrow and a bit longer than A321. What other parameters are we talking about?? A321Neo is much more economic with the new engines and is more modern. Some less seats on A321 and so what?
Boeing is stupid to not have a 757 max or something like it!
The Airbus has more interior room for the "American size" passenger. The Boeing has less room for the "Wide body" passenger. Seems that Boeing best aims its sales to the airlines that keep comfort a lower priority, and Airbus aims its sales to comfortably accommodate the larger passengers. With all that.... I think the A321Neo would be the path to take.
You haven't commented on the cost of another Boeing mess. That is the biggest factor, not cost, not efficiency but the possibility of another door plug, more loose bolts or 350+ deaths.
Wasn't; the topic of the video. He has countless ones on the topic.
No, as much as I like the Boeing 757-200 aircraft it's time for Delta Air Lines needs to retire them between 2028-2030, exercise their firm options orders the Airbus A321neo and convert them into Airbus A321XLR for fuel efficiency to meet better standards for Eco Friendly.