Debunking 3 Geothermal Myths
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 10. 2020
- Matt got the chance to meet up with Wade, a fellow builder in Rhode Island, who is in the process of installing a geothermal heating system at one of his projects. Geothermal heating systems have been around for much longer than you may think, and in theory are quite environmentally friendly and efficient. But due to a lack of consumer knowledge and the assumed complexity, geothermal still makes up a small fraction of HVAC systems used in America. But, as Wade and Lou (Wade’s HVAC installer) will tell us, these systems are more affordable than you think, and an excellent way to go about heating your house. There are a couple different types of geothermal heating systems, but essentially pipes in the ground circulate a water solution and extract heat energy and transfer it into buildings. If you are interested in learning more about this system, check out the video and listen to what Lou and Wade have to say!
Huge thanks to Lou from www.aandlmechanical.com/ for taking us to school!
Follow along with Wade at buildshownetwork.com/go/wadep...
Follow Wade on Instagram - / wkp_construction
Follow Matt on Instagram! / risingerbuild
or Twitter / mattrisinger
For more great video content check out Matts new site! buildshownetwork.com/
Sign-Up for the Newsletter buildshownetwork.com/newsletter
Build Show Network on Instagram / thebuildshow
Huge thanks to our Show sponsors Polywall, Huber, Dorken Delta, Prosoco, Rockwool & Viewrail for helping to make these videos possible! These are all trusted companies that Matt has worked with for years and trusts their products in the homes he builds. We would highly encourage you to check out their websites for more info.
www.Poly-Wall.com
www.Dorken.com
www.Huberwood.com
www.Prosoco.com
www.Viewrail.com
www.Rockwool.com
I’ve had two GSHP systems over the last 7 years. The first was a retrofit on a conventional AC and gas heat system. Installer did horizontal boring to get the pipes into the house. Hit the pre dug hole perfectly! In my system the manifold for three wells was outside, only the supply and return pipes came into the house.
When I built a new home 4 years ago, did the same system. 3 ton system with three wells. Used the same WaterFurnace System 7. 12 stage variable speed pump, compressor and fan. Also, takes off the waste heat and preheats my hot water which is stored in a separate tank.
Absolutely awesome system! I pay less than a dollar a day all year to heat and cool a 4,000 square foot home. Eastern Nebraska. Last year total cost was $210.
Couldn’t be happier. I advocate for it when ever I can.
When you did your retro fit protect did you get quotes to put in gas and conventional ac again? I was wondering what a price difference you saw between that and a geothermal install.
Nicholas McKellip , I did quote it both ways. Admittedly, the geothermal was more expensive, but I was able to use the federal tax rebate (which was huge) as well as a much smaller rebate from the local electric utility. It was still more, by about 8%. At that time I was not really planning on moving, so looking for the long term play.
Using payback calculations for the two systems, I was looking at 3 ish years for my system. I was comfortable with that.
The system worked wonderfully and I saw significant savings in electricity. I actually had 10 years of previous electric bills to compare to and keep a spread sheet going forward with month by month comparisons between old conventional and new GSHP. It was playing out as I had hoped for.
I will say that without the fed tax rebate it would have been a much tougher sell on price alone.
We ended up moving, so in reality, I didn’t make it to complete payback time, but it was a great selling point for the house.
Nicholas McKellip , one more comment. If you go with a GSHP system, make sure the company has experience and really believes in their product. Not just a “yeah, sure, we can do that...”
A friend of mine had a contractor that was like that. Let’s just say their experience was waaaay different from mine. They eventually got it right, but it was a struggle.
@@ericwilliams4465 thanks for the info. Hopefully I can find a company that believes in it in our area. Plus, hopefully I can find one that gets me to a similar payoff period. I would be pretty happy with 3 years.
What was the cost of the system for your new home?
Here’s another advantage. It doesn’t matter if outside air is 130 degrees or -40 degrees. The geothermal well will never know it. Amazing technology.
I don’t understand what you mean.
@@DylanBegazo the groundtemperature stays constant, basically it takes so long for the ground to heat up/cool down, that the seasons don't meaningfully affect the temperature a few meters down.
Freek Hoekstra ohhh wow. Now I get it. Thanks 😊
You're mostly right. There are several strategies for ground source systems. I assume that you're referring to vertical loops.
The conductivity of the native formation, and the system's contact with it determine the energy transfer.
Designing for the most prevalent usage (heat or cooling cycles) is the starting point. Southern, desert, and basically most of the US south of the northern tier of states are designed for cooling cycles.
Loop placement. Thermal conductivity will determine distancing between loops. The addition or removal of thermal energy by each loop remains efficient as long as there is no influence by the others. The gradient, or flow direction of the water table and any aquifers which are confined below should be considered.
The driller's experience is important. Knowledge of the local geology determines drilling strategies to both advance the borehole and keep the length of it open for loop placement.
Most important is grouting the annular space of the borehole between the loop and the native formations. Voids affect performance and efficiency.
Always entertaining watching this guy that always appears to be clueless. (On purpose, I hope.)
We've been on GSHP for 10 years now in MN. 3200sq ft 4 level split and I have 4 closed loop vertical wells 200' deep. Gives us 4 tons of cooling. Electrical utility gave us an all-electric discounted rate so $0.05/KWHr. Dual stage compressor w/10KW 3rd stage electric strip. Avg monthly heating/cooling/hot water costs is $149. House is MUCH more comfortable and ZERO CO risk.
We were quoted $12k for a 80% efficient natural gas furnace and new outdoor air coil vs. $24k for the GSHP including wells. With 30% tax credits we were looking @ $17k vs. $12k. Best decision we've made.
@Steve Scott .. Congratulations. .. Your math is reminiscent of a '70s TV advertisement. .. " You can pay me now. .. Or you can pay me later. .. But you will pay me". .. Our 1999 Vail house renovation included an NG fired Hydronic In-Floor heating system replacing an electric hot H2O heater plus entire house electric convection baseboard heaters. .. The house sips $ NG and is sooooo comfortable.
It’s great to see actual numbers from a house in a similar climate to mine. That sounds like an excellent deal.
Wait for another year or 2 until you have a major component failur3 (compressors)... That will add approx. $60/month to your monthly costs to date
@@soving that goes for any type of heat pump, so what is your point?
@@jeremyanderson7741 well my point is, they all talk 20-25 year potential lifespan...those would be anomalies. One should factor in a catastrophic failure somewhere just outside warranty when doing their homework. Fact is, none of these residential units are designed to run 24/7 heating and cooling. They are in no way industrial equipment... So my point is, insulation and better building practices would be a far better investment than a complicated gshp and all of its bells and whistles
Thank you from Ireland I have geothermal heating 14 years now. Done it when no one believed it would work. It's been working great even though the installation contractor and the supplier left a lot to be desired. Thank you for the excellent video wish I had you guys doing the job.
Hi Liam, also in Ireland. How much does it cost to run the pumps etc
Mech Engr. Here: I have this installed in my own home on the coast of SC. One benefit they do not tell you is that your air temp. will be colder with GSHP and heating air heating greater with GSHP than conventional heat pump. Having done several geothermal systems I see a temperature rise in water temperatures when the units run for a long time such as either really cold days or really hot days. Transferring heat from pipe to earth or earth to pipe is a slow process even with the best improved grouts. Consequently, adding additional wells during construction is not a significant cost, particularly with Fed/State credits, and will improve the long term satisfaction of the owners. I would never, never, never, do one of these systems without an engineer involved. My interest is a system done right, and not profit for well guy or contractor. In the video, they tell you about the valves they put in. Where are the supply and return temp. gauges. Where are the pressure gauges?
My house was built in 1982 with an open loop geothermal system. It finally malfunctioned in 2013 when the pump malfunctioned because the return well clogged up. I was quoted 5 grand for drilling a new open loop return well and new pump, but I still would be using a 31 year old system. I opted for a new closed loop system with 5 wells drilled in my yard. Around 18 thousand for the wells and system combined, and 7 years later I have a 2000 sq ft all electric home that costs about $175.00 / month year round to heat or cool. Best investment ever. The old system lasted 31 years, let's see if the new one does too!
Have you considered solar to offset the 175? I want to build a House with geo heating and cooling but with solar to offset grid costs...
@@sundeeptalwar My wife and I sat down with a salesperson just last fall about solar and we decided not to do it at that moment because of our son finishing HS and prepping for college and we were setting aside for that. It's not out of the question but just not right now.
I'm curious on the value engineering life cycle cost savings on this system. Lou gives an estimate that the overall system costs 35% more than a traditional system, but he does not discuss the potential cost savings( if any) of electricity. It seems you've saved some money on your electricity bills. Are their any specifics on your return on investment of this system as far as savings in electricity per month?
@@michaelshettig7805 my open loop system was efficient also. I was paying between 185/195 per month year round as opposed to the 175+/- now. The entire system installed with 5 wells as opposed to the 4 the system called for was 19k. I went with an additional loop for easier heat dissipation and it made it more efficient. I am in SE Virginia with a soft sandy dirt so no big rocks to drill through. They drilled 5 holes 200 feet down and installed a loop to the bottom of each and back up and tied them all in through a manifold. The old system used a big noisy irrigation pump in my garage that died, but the new pump is a small little thing that is encased in the unit itself. A 13 deer air to air heat pump would have run me 8 to 10 k installed depending on brand, so the additional 9k I paid will take some time to recoup at 20 or so bucks a month, but as I stated, the old unit lasted 31 years so I think I have time to let it pay me back.
@@mikedixon8741 Thanks for the reply. I'm interested as I provide design build services for the commercial sector north of Houston. I don't see this system much down here, but I will continue to study this as a value option for my potential clients. Thanks again.
Enjoyed this video. Great content. I did chuckle that the two builders are in jeans, long sleeve tees and vests... and the HVAC guy is in shorts and a short sleeve shirt.
The content on this channel mirrors areas of interest and helps answer questions by having experts explain in plain English the systems and why they designed or completed the project the way they did. Always interesting - keep up the good work.
Great video as always Matt but I would love to see the heat and circulation pumps too.
It's so important to debunk the myths. Thank you for sharing!
2:00 PRICE
4:00 RELIABILITY
5:55 LONGEVITY
Wrong! We need to listen to the oil funded think tanks that once said that smoking is beneficial for pregnant women and burn their sugar daddies products in the most wasteful and inefficient way possible to go about our lives. That is how freedom works!
I just built a 2000sq ft single story house with a full basement in northeast Pa. I had a 4 ton groundbed geo system put in for 25k. I did the excavation for the groundbed to save money. I got a 30% tax credit.
There's the average loop installation.
Has the government maintained that tax incentive?
@@richavic4520 I believe it was going to drop to 27% for 2020
What does the $7500 tax credit equal ?
My 2000 sq ft single story home , a 5 Ton condenser was $2700 w 10 yr warranty .
@@donjohnson9893 5 ton unit in a 2000 square foot house? That's a BIG unit for that house....
Jeremy Anderson they factor in high ceiling volume ect . Plus it gets 110° here .
Thanks for this video - I've always wanted to know more about geothermal workings.
I love my geothermal system!! very reliable for nearly 14 years so far.
@chris shick: New construction or retrofit? Im looking into the latter now...
I had to replace my single 6 ton unit after ten years at the cost of $18k. I have since wisened up and now think ground sourced heat pumps are a waste of money. Better off sticking the extra cost into air sealing and insulation and use mini-splits.
@@etekberg my house leaks like a sieve...
@@bikesqump mm Cc g
how cold does it get where you live?
I’d say that one of the biggest misconceptions is that it’s too complicated for regular HVAC guys to maintain. Apart from the ground loop itself, the components are the same. The only major difference, electrically and mechanically speaking, is that the condenser fan is replaced by a water pump, but it serves the exact same purpose.
@Jeff Webb you are correct. Then again it is difficult to find a competent HVAC repair person for a conventional system also. Oddly enough, there are thousands of really great HVAC folks out there. Sadly, the great ones are out numbered 10 to 1 by lousy service people.
Jeremy Anderson - Sadly, I’ve found this sentiment applies across the majority of industries.
@@RobVespa true
I had nothing but problems trying to find people to work on my waterfurnace unit. Unfortunately when you get out of the normal, you have difficulties.
Exactly. How hard could it be. The only hard part I can think of if something goes horribly wrong 100 feet beneath your house.
great video - some more on geo thermal would be appreciated
This may be in the works, but for a video like this, a very brief overview at the beginning on how these systems work (and perhaps why you'd want one) would be helpful.
Google can be your friend.
Basically, the energy transfer happens underground, within 200 feet of the surface, which holds a constant temperature. 55 degrees F is the rule of thumb. The liquid circulating between the house unit and ground transfers the energy. Heat is extracted from the liquid in wintertime by the indoor unit, added to it in the summer.
Ric Havic - Yes, it not only can be, but is. Thank you for the information. That typed, I wasn’t asking for it (although I appreciate your taking the time to provide it, even with the quip).
To repeat my suggestion, presenting an overview and listing reasons for choosing a geothermal option at the beginning of the video would make it better.
Anti corrosion properties and clean fluid are very important to note, not pumping fine sand will definitely make any pumps and stuff last much longer. Good video guys, thanks
Good contact between the native formation and the loops is most important.
Have been reading about geo source for 20 years. Used to sell florida heat pump. I would never consider an open system.
@@stevepailet8258, yes, I had a house with Florida Heat Pump and open wells and one day I came home and my whole backyard was flooded and it wasn’t raining for days. Turns out sand from the supply well filled up the pipe in the return well. I was able to add some pipe and valves and pump from the return well and let it drain into the storm drains and then realign the system for normal operation. Then every few months I’d back flush the return well with a turn of a few valves, let it run till clear, then realign for normal operation.
I have four ground source systems, three open loop GSHP’s on two wells, pump and dump at my shop (two buildings and office). Heating is in the floor with conventional air conditioning.
The fourth closed loop with 2,000 ft of plastic tubing in a pond nearby for my 3,000 sq ft house.
I buy the GSHP’s direct from the factory and subcontract the installation to the appropriate trades. My HVAC guy had never seen a GSHP before we started. Today he takes care of everything in the unit, my shop guys maintain the water pumps.
Did my house first for half the price our local GSHP guru quoted.
Fixin to make an addition to the shop, will add another unit to the one well.
I will admit, Mother Nature gives up her water easier than what she takes it back. The first try was 75 ft of perforated 4 inch drain pipe which plugged up after a couple of years. Now I use a 125 ft trench 10 ft deep covered with 3 ft of pea gravel.
The numbers I use are 1 gal per min per ton on the open loop system, 500 ft of 3/4” plastic tubing per ton at my house and circulate with 1/6 hp.
Informative as always! Thank you
I have a closed-open hydrid geothermal system in North Texas. It's been running since 2011. It's been super reliable. Nowadays I might not do it. But I'm so happy with my system so far. It's saved a LOT of money. I'm far enough south that I don't need any glycol or methanol for anti-freeze. I just run straight water with anti-rust inhibitor. I don't have issues with water fouling on the open loop part. I only run the open loop hybrid part in the summer and when I do I can cool my 3000 sq foot house for 100 a month in Texas. And my home was built in 95 and is very leaky.
My Trane closed loop system is 18 years old and still going. Worried about getting parts now if I have issues since they no longer make this system. My loop is horizontal, and my hot water is heated from it in the summer. 3200 sq ft in North east Ohio.
Costs have come down from 20 years past. I was involved with two installations and the cost were about 2 1/2 times over typical systems. I must though, the systems worked great. The wells were the extending cost. Glad to see this video.
What was the cost?
John Marquardt : About 2 1/2 times that of the common system.
Superb presentation. This IS the answer. I have been advocating it for years. Both on small scale domestic statems, and large scale commercial systems.
A couple of points. Less of the tech speak. The system is very simple, it is almost water mill conceptually. It is easy to explain in simple language. The more tech speak, the more complicated the perception becomes.
System longevity. In a closed loop, it is only the pump which is vulnerable. One small part in the system. Your brief came across that the system will last for 25 years. In a more conventional sense it is the equivalent of "your gas central heating system will last for 25 years." Nope, just the boiler, the rest of the system could easily last for a hundred.
I think you could have put emphasis on the point that if a turbine is installed it will provide free electricity, with hot water as a by-product, for the life of the turbine pump (25 years), which more than offsets the cost of the well drilling.
I believe that as geothermal drilling becomes more common, it will drive the price down of the drilling operation. This could be advertised, not just as a way of generating home electricity and heating, but as a way of generating electricity and selling it, from your own back yard. An investment opportunity. I strongly believe that it is then that geothermal will really take off.
Overall a great job guys. I will definitely be using your presentation as a reference.
Lou is awesome!!! Knows his stuff
We have a geothermal system and love it. Typical electric bill in Iowa winter is only $120-150 (total bill, everything in house is electric). It came with the house so not sure what the previous owner paid. The only downside is that its very slow to make any temperature change.
The units are only efficient maintaining a temperature. It’s set and forget. No more lowering the thermostat when you go to bed or leave for work. Ramping up and down will kill any savings.
That's not really Geothermal related actually. Most heat pump, hydronic radiant heat, systems are slower to head because of it's lower BTU. A conventional gas furnace heats your house quick because it's usually way oversized, operating at 80-110k BTU. So it fires up and heats your house right away then shut off. Heat Pump (conventional or geothermal) run at a much lower BTU, usually 42k-60k BTU so around half that of a conventional gas unit, it's not designed to be an on and off kinda system. Especially today with variable refrigerant flow units, they're designed to be left always on. Heat Pumps take a while to get your temps to a desired temperature, but it's most efficient at maintaining temperature.
One of the worst things I've see people do is install a Nest to control a heat pump. A conventional thermostat that's set and forget is probably the way to go with these system. If you want a smart thermostat for looks, you have to turn off all the smart features and program it yourself to a specific schedule
@@519VXComanche I have to disagree. I've experimented a lot with it using a "Sense" energy monitor and it is FAR less expensive to set 55F during the day (winter) when we are at work and then bring it up to 64-66 when we get home. Vice versa in the summer we set it at 83F when we go to work and then bring it down to 71-74F when we get home.
@@Matt-dc8lp You must have a very efficient heat pump bc there is no way mine could overcome a 10 degree rise in 8 hours without kicking in the 30k worth of heat strips.
Open wells are indeed dirtier, but do however offer a higher capacity and the option to have a hot and a cold well. (on different depths) That is to say, hot and cold storage. Which means that the temperatures are more consistent. A cold well stays almost all year on 5 degr. Celcius. A hot wel will stay on 25. (Only if your heating and cooling is balanced.) If one of them does run out, you'll get 12 degr. Celcius (or whatever the average soil temperature is).
A closed well, is more like a open buffer where the temperature gets mixed, so at the end of the hot season your well is at 20 degr. celcius and you can't use passive cooling anymore. At the end of the cold season you can even get your closed well to freeze over, and you can't heat at all.
Stoked you decided to do a current geothermal install.
4800 sq foot ICF house in central TX, using a synergy Waterfurnace system to generate warm air, cold air, and hot water for domestic use (heating up water in a stainless steel tank with heat exchangers rather than a traditional water heater). The 5 ton synergy does all this relatively easy using 5 closed loop wells 250 feet deep per manifolded together. Also have a desuperheater function installed that preheats water in a dead tank prior to my stainless tank, and a 30 tube solar system that augments (but mainly allows a nice discussion with my property tax folks). System running 10 years now. I’ve had to replace the 3 junky original tanks with 3 new (and much better) tanks. One new coil, and a little issue with a coolant leak. Otherwise system does well. Here is what I would recommend if you are thinking geo....
1. The tax takeaway is a good one, basically the government bought my wells and loops and I bought the rest. The loops last forever usually.
2. In a predominantly warm climate, your loops tend to warm up over time unless they are generously sized. The fact I have a desuperheater and also use my system to produce domestic hot water help out a lot in this regard.
3. My system struggles if I turn the set point on domestic water production past 118 degrees F. The wife wants a hotter shower but struggles to figure out the handle goes further left. What I’m saying here is that she wants the handle to be in the middle and the shower to be hot, but making 125 degree water then tempering it down to110 makes no sense. The efficiency of the system goes way down in that scenario, and will cause the system to pressure trip and require a reset. Over time she has started to understand how this all works. I’m poking on her but typical users and customers have these same thinking trends. There is some risk in heating water less than 120 degrees because of bacteria, mine is at 118. Do your research before you heat water for domestic use, but in my case it balances out the system annually esteem heating and cooling seasons. Additionally, the life of my components is linked to the frequency of hot water generation, so every time somebody runs the hot I wonder if that is costing me life on the unit.
4. I have 1 guy that I use to service and check my system. A typical a/c system can be serviced by almost any HVAC company.
5. In my case I have no backup system for making cold air. But I have a propane fireplace that can run without electrical amd at 36000 btu can heat a few rooms when Texas turns off the power. (We were lucky though and they didn’t at our house)
6. Now the system is 10 years old and things break. Pricing a new unit seems stupid when every component inside the case can be replaced or serviced. So how long parts are available will become a factor. Pick a reputable name brand company if this is a concern for you.
7. My system sits in an equipment room at ground level in a 1 story house. It’s pretty quiet at low compressor speeds and fan speeds. Not really noticeable. I could have probably used a 3 ton on a 5 well system, but my installer wanted the bigger fan in the 5 ton to move air. I think it was a good call.
8 with the outside air temp down near zero,my unit struggled in low mode to keep up, occasionally shifting into high, but I have no emergency heat strips in my system.
9. Having no outdoor unit is nice, and the wear and tear is way less inside out of the weather.
10. People think I’m weird. And if you put in a geo unit you will have to contend with explaining all this to people forever. But you can then look down your nose quietly at people that don’t “get it” and never had a thermodynamics class. My average electric bill in 4800 sq foot home for the first 12 months was less than 85 dollars a month. My neighbors in similar sized homes are 3 to 4 times that. While there are legit reasons to question geo, at the end of the day for a long term investment it’s way worth it, and again, the government bought me the difference anyway. It was a no brainer. Since then my entire family has all invested in them and nobody has uttered a complaint.
11. One more point. When you hire a geo installer, by definition they probably are better contractors and HVAC folk than you might otherwise come across. Not true in all cases but as a general rule these guys are pretty damn smart. That’s a big help.
That's Ricks brother from Pawn Stars... 🤣
Are you sure it’s not his twin brother ?
Does Rick even know he’s got a doppelgänger?
Best I can do is distant cousin
8:00 lou's face as matt over pronunciates his exit catch phrase. we feel you lou..
I went back to look at that and I didn’t see Lou’s expression change?
That's some low testosterone. He could be in a K-pop boy band.
Good stuff as always Matt...builder almost finished with my basement home... been a year now.....Basement is leaking and looks like I may have to get a lawyer...so it may be another year...or two...
Very knowledgeable guys! Good video
I replaced my closed loop geothermal with natural gas furnace last year. My unit was a lemon and the 10 year warranty was ending. It needed major repairs every year. The problem is there is not many hvac techs willing to work on geos so they charge a lot more per hour and not many options if you don't like them. Also, do homework on the price of electricity vs natural gas in your area. By me, the cost per btu of electricity is 4 times the cost per btu of natural gas. Even though my geo unit was 400% efficient, it still cost me almost the same as my 98% furnace. To top it off, my power company charges 50% more on the geo meter during the summer (a/c) vs the regular meter. All in all, it wasn't worth it to me.
Thanks for this perspective. Very interesting.
I am a retired drilling contractor, we sold our company to our employees. We are up on the knowledge for Geothermal and also have a registered trade for drilling and installing geothermal loops. We have not done one system install because of the low cost bids for drilling and installing and there is only one way to do it cheap, go fast and spend little or nothing on grout sealing the bore once the loop is in. Proper drilling and preparation of the bore hole plus high thermal conductive grout to transfer the heat and cold exchange as well as correct layout distance between the bore holes is paramount and all costs money. Improper installation leads to inefficiency right from the start and a lifetime of problems. Just like anything else, it needs to be designed, sized and installed correctly. We would not do the job if the customer would not spend the money to have it done properly and that is how we still operate.
Jason, I had the same experience... Electric rate was good when installed then they flipped the winter summer cost and compressor on water furnace kept going bad...
nice to hear the differences in the new closed loop as opposed to the old pump and dump systems, Lou looks like he could drive a well casing by hand.....LOL
Pump and dump? You make it sound like it's not the way to do it.....ground water IS BY FAR the most efficient, and easiest way to have a system that will live forever.
"DUMP"..??? means that you've extracted or added the energy you need......warm in the winter, and cool in the summer.
Interesting, thanks. I am wondering if one can use glycol in closed loop with air heat pumps into a geyser / heat tank that has heat exchanger elements
Sweet, this is going to be a big one for geothermal
An advantage that wasn’t discussed is it’s much quieter than air-to-air heat pumps.
Nice!
Not a factor anymore with air to air units less than 55db that equates to somewhere between a refrigerator hum and normal conversatio
My Air heat compresor unit makes no noise. You can be standing next to it & not realize it running. The issue with geotheremal is the cost of the wells, which can be price if you ground has a lot of rock that makes drilling difficult & expensive.
Its the same stuff, compressor evaporator plus water pumps. No technical reason for noise to be more or less that I can think of.
@@etekberg The fans on air-to-air heat pumps are noisy. Walk through any new neighborhood in Florida and you hear those heat pumps cranking. On the other hand, geothermal units are quiet enough to put *inside* the house.
most of risinger's videos have a more or less "infomercial" character, with some having more information value than others. this is toward the low end on the information scale and toward the high end on the commercial scale. the only significant "myth" discussed in this video is cost. open well versus closed well is an option that you still have. the reason why you might go with an open well is to save money on the installation. the cost estimates given in this video are not reliable. i'm not accusing the people on this video of outright lying, but they aren't really giving you good information. for example, i considered a geothermal heat pump a few years ago, and i got a quote. the quote that i got was $45,000 (for an average sized house). one of the reasons why my cost was so high was that i don't have acres of yard space to lay geothermal subsurface loops. in my case, i had to drill wells several hundred feet down into the ground. my cost would have admittedly been less if i did have a big yard in which i could lay out a 100-150 meter long geothermal loop field.
in general, air source heat pumps have improved so much (with innovations like enhanced vapor injection) that they are rendering geothermal systems obsolete, as a practical matter. that's why some companies are abandoning selling of geothermal systems. these days, you mainly see them deployed in "cost no object" projects where people are willing to pay twice as much to realize only slight improvements in COP values over air source systems.
They are way off on the costs of that geothermal system being cheap. Are they worth the money in the northeast? Yes. Are they very expensive? Yes.
There is nothing more efficient than geo-thermal. To suggest otherwise is just ignorant. The entire earth works off of geo-thermal heating and cooling. It has outlasted everything and continues on strong. The real problem is idiots do not understand the science behind how this principle works so they insert that which was never necessary and artificially drive up the costs. The real issue is they want everyone paying for electricity no matter what. It was never necessary to have a comfortable home in any climate.
What is clear is those you dealt with were only interested in making a quick buck off of you and up-selling you on your installation costs. Depending where you live which affects the depth you need to be below for geo-thermal, this is the only real factor that is necessary to know. You can dig out a large pit say 10' x 10' and then to a suitable depth. Then you lay your lines in a spiral layer by layer inserting more soil in between for insulation. It does not need to take up much space at all. Then couple that with good insulation to be a passive home for example and your house pays for itself over time and reduces your bills. No liquid in the lines is even necessary. Just use the air that is already passing through it. All you need to do so is a fan or a few fans to pull air from below and assist the cycling process. That removes the large and needlessly expensive "heat pump" for a geo-thermal system. Just think of how stupid that even sounds. It is like claiming an eco-friendly V8. ha
@@discodench I’m considering a high efficiency propane system instead. I want a whole house generator and gas for fireplace, grill and stovetop besides heating. I can a bury a 1,000 gallon propane tank and be done with it
@@curiousfellow9341 where i am with rebates it still makes more sense to go with geothermal on new builds. That said people need to be honest about it. Matt acts like its no big deal, easy, cheap. Its none of those things.
I think it depends on where you live. If, for example, you live in Florida where you only have to dig about 20 ft before hitting groundwater, the well costs won't be that much. Also people do use geothermal for more than just heating. Again, in Florida where trying to keep a space cool using standard AC triples your energy bill, relying on the earth's constant 60F temps to help cool a space might be worth it. I might be wrong, since I don't know much about the technology, but that's just a thought that occurred to me.
I asked and you delivered. THANK YOU!
I've worked with exactly one and the biggest nuisance about it is it had a generator load shedding option - except it worked exactly backwards. it took about an hour working directly with the manufacturer to find out which wires I could cut and divert through the load shedding relay to make it drop out when it needed to.
The choice of closed loop vs open loop isn't as simple as he makes it sound. Yes, there are ongoing maintenance requirements for an open-loop system. However, the upfront cost for an open loop system is typically much lower than a closed loop because you typically only need one well _and_ it only has to reach the level of the groundwater. You also typically have an indoor loop and an outdoor loop, separated by a heat exchanger, so that _only_ the heat exchanger (and not your more expensive AC/heat pump) can fail when fouling occurs.
One of the biggest problems with closed-loop systems is heat saturation. For example, if you live in Houston where you are running Your AC a lot more than you are your heat over the course of the year, You will be dumping _a lot_ more heat into the ground than you are taking out. Eventually the ground temperature rises and your AC can't cool as efficiently. This is much less of a problem with an open loop because the reinjected water flows and can disperse over a much wider area.
In the specific case of this house right on an ocean coast with brackish groundwater, yes, a closed loop is probably a good choice. Open loop systems are also viable, you just have to be a bit judicious in where you put them. For example, Cornell University has an open-loop system to cool its campus buildings and they are looking to expand the system's capability to also heat the campus as well so they can be more "green".
If you want more information on geothermal systems, Jay Egg is the person in the industry that is one of the "smart" people. He runs a geothermal consulting business and has authored a couple of books on the subject. He would be a good resource if you really want a deep dive on the topic.
Interesting information. I've been studying these LEED ( or Green ) building designs and they discuss these systems as the most energy efficient, environmentally clean, and cost effective space conditioning systems available. I've never been involved in a project that uses this system as I build in the Houston area. We'll see in the future. Thanks.
We just completed a new house here in Minnesota and went with a geothermal system. It would be helpful to hear the cost of the system and availability of tax credits from the government. Our system was quite expensive but with the credits and efficiency of the system, payback is advertised at about 4 years. Still find that hard to believe. We have a horizontal system with 11 loops. It was pretty cool watching the boring of the loops.
What was you cost?
What was cost!
Just under $80k but that also included more than just the geo system. It was the duct work, hot water tanks, gas lines etc.
@@gregj2647 Thanks. Now we know why geo-thermal is not used.
Hey guys, I just built a 2000 square ft single story house with a full basement in northeast pa. My system is a 4 ton system. I did a grounded system because I have the room and bought an excavator to do the excavation for the project. My system cost me 25k and had a 30% tax credit. I live in a rural area so no natural gas near me.
I am new to watching your videos but I tried looking through playlists, but I'm looking to start working in construction and want to start buying tools, looking for longevity and good quality but also necessity, any beginner tool guides? Everyday items? Carpenter belt necessities?
Enjoying the show
I think they don't usually calculate the efficiency (eg. seer) to include the pumping etc. that goes along with a geothermal system. I think most of the time it's cheaper and more efficient to go with a Mitsubishi minisplit now that they can run down to really cold temperatures...
We finally received our Mitsubishi mini-split bid when our geothermal was already under way: $37k which was roughly the same as our geothermal, However, a geothermal heat pump sits in a protected basement whereas the mini split fans sit outside: much longer system life for geo. In fact the mini-splits are only warrantied for 10 years.
@@mv80401 Interesting. I guess in your situation I would probably go with the geothermal.
I'm not sure if the tax incentives are still in place, but a 30% deduction used to be available.
By what the gentleman said, it would pretty much cover the difference.
I will stress the importance of hiring a driller/loop installer with local knowledge and experience. The contact between the loops and the native formation is most important. Voids will result in lower performance and efficiency.
Welcome to RI!
I've only experienced one geothermal system in an office in Rhode Island. It was a combined system which integrated solar preheaters and geothermal. The geothermal NEVER made enough heat once the temps dropped below 50 and every hole in the roof from the solar preheaters leaked rain and snow. And, when it was cloudy, the preheaters were ineffective. The propane secondary heat would run non-stop from Nov to Apr. Glad to hear the technology has come along.
That poor Office sounds like it was visited by contractors that needed putting in a gibbet out front as a warning to others.
The roof has one basic but important job and that is to keep the weather out, that one sounds a disaster. Geothermal systems are best in well insulated buildings, one that can't even keep the weather out was never going to work and you have to wonder what the owners and the installers were thinking.
@@helenlawson8426 In this case, the developer gave the building design to his daughter for a graduation present for her architecture degree. She was an environmentalist and an artist, but NOT a building engineer.
@@RIBill Lets hope she learnt something from it. :)
@@helenlawson8426 Highly doubtful. She probably went on to design bigger, leakier buildings at greatly increased costs!
love the idea of geo source heat pump. With the prices of inverter style mini split units, still makes a lot of sense to go that route. There are new units as you know that will operate down into sub zero weather. For a lot of the country that is a better idea. For those areas that do see extended 0degree and below winters, Geo source make huge sense. In essence they can produce 4-5 times the amount of heating or cooling by using the earth as the real energy source to tap from. Deep wells are now able to be drilled at a much lower cost than even 5 years ago. It is a matter of supply and demand. As demand rises entrepreneurs are filling the need
I would love to see Matt do a video on the current crazy overly complex roof designs I see everywhere. How are you supposed to control water off a roof like that? What happened to the simple gable roof which made water management so easy? The gutter guys really have some challenges these days.
fancy roof features are a profitable way to make the house look unique.
It looks chaotic. Not a fan.
ever hear about the book, 'the house with seven gables', now they all do.
What type of job is replacing a pump and how much would it cost ?
Do you do thermal conductivity tests on the ground before you size your systems?
I have a Geothermal system and I kept reading below how many square feet per ton. Here in Zone 5, 3600 sqft takes about 4 ton if reasonable well insulated and sealed.
They talked a bit about the life of those pipes. What is the lifespan of them and the wells? It seems it would be expensive to replace since they are coming in through your foundation. Interesting to hear about the closed loop system and the maintenance benefits of the newer systems.
The life span of these pipes is 50+ yrs.
@@TL-xv9of --that is correct, and may be conservative as the pipes are not exposed to the elements.
So funny I never knew there is an open loop system. Been from Germany I always only used closed Glycol loop systems. But much bigger pipes. We ran 2" from the house as 2 pipes and than 4 - 8 times down into the ground to about 40meter so 120ft deep into the ground. because we used bigger well drilling it was cheaper for us about 50% cheaper because we could use Oil drilling drig Companies to just dill for us instead of the much more expensive Well Water crew costs. Haven't checked the numbers in the USA yet but I would bet here it's going to be also cheaper because from the permit and all process it should be half the costs because oil riggers have a much better Equipment and drill 3x times faster into the ground than well water small Equipment Companies.
Open loop systems are rare.
I got a quote of $78K when I wanted to move from oil to geothermal for my 3000 sqft home. No thanks. I went the propane route for $13K (96% efficiency, constant hot water, 1000g tank) and have been really happy since. 6 years now.
@@vipahman 78K who ever gave you that quote was smoking something. On average you get 4 holes drilled cost per hole about 3-4k max so max 12k there plus digging work outside about 4-5k and than the interior work still would come down to less than 30k in costs....
@@lsellclumanetsolarenergyll5071 12k to drill through granite is not unusual in New England. Some of these wells have to be pretty deep and are going through some hard rock.
@@discodench you mean 12k per hole is a normal price for your area when you only drill less than 200ft deep? @vipahman got a 78K quote which I think is double of the price it should be, which clearly tells me the Company who gave it to him must be using a ton of subcontractors and not owning or having good relationships with their subs. Also geothermal drilling holes are normally only 2" in diameter for some odd reason I see a lot do 4" which mean's more than double the costs too. The pipes going into the ground are only 3/4" pipe's so a 2" hole should be just fine it they use the right speed drill Equipment.
Something that they probably didnt think of is salt water intrusion on those exposed well runs. Salt water intrusion is a real problem in the northeast for owners who own homes near the ocean while using wells. The well water becomes contaminated by seawater which seeps into the freshwater water table and have to have remediation equipment installed. I wonder if these geothermal runs are rated for saline conditions?
@itsabig Im talking about the well, the well casing, the piping and the glue used at the end of each loop at the bottom of the well. Is all this rated for salt water?
If you try to avoid the costs of drilling and your space is large enough you could also go for a trench collector. It offers the same efficiency but at much lower price.
You need a very long trench, but at what depth ?
Lou knows his stuff and can back it up !!
He sure can 😍
Hahaha
Well compared to replace a natural gas furnace, it is 3x the price just with a air-water heat pump.
If yer lucky ! Some guys tried to set me back for 25000 € . I declined and chose natural gas, even though I don’t like fossil fuel. I hope one day to upgrade to hydrogen. I like the heatpump technology but it’s way way to expensive over here.
So great and cool to see
I've gone to your Build Network website, and unfortunately, the videos there are not captioned. I could not check out the mechanism of the geothermal system there. I don't know who you use to stream your videos there, but do they have something like CZcams's auto caption option? Thanks!
How deep is the wells? In Sweden we usually only have one well or maybe two for a really big house in the northern part of Sweden (I live above the Arctic circle). We usually drill 180-220 meters (590 to 720 feet) sometimes closer to 250 or even 300 meters but that is pretty uncommon.
Tim Augustsson , in my area in the central US, most wells are only 200-300 feet deep. The depth is dependent on exactly where you are geographically. At that depth, the temperature is pretty stable, about 55 degrees F.
Then, it is typically one well per ton.
Youre probably drilling into volcanic magma!!! Haha, also you probably insulate well.
@@bikesqump Sure not hope so, we have to mines nearby that are more 500 meters and 1500 meters deep😂
@@thenorthernhandyman 1 more centimeter deep and BOOM 💥
I'm in Colorado and 300 feet equates to one ton (heat pumps come in 1,2,3,4,5 ton sizes). Industry supplies ready to deploy double pipes at 360 ft length (to allow connecting wells) so that is what drillers use.
#1 Myth - Cost
Doesn’t discuss cost. 50% more than “conventional” equipment. Describe conventional... are we talking 90% gas furnace (cheap and very conventional) or a multi-head VRF air-source heat pump (expensive and not very conventional)?
He said the comparison was to "convention high efficiency systems"...
@@BrendanCBreen High efficiency Gas furnace s can be bought for the cost of one of those wells...I don't feel that fellow was being as transparent as he could have been.
Well at the end of the day he wasn´t talking to some sort of independent expert but to someone that sells the systems. Being to open when it comes to numbers isn´t something they want to do.
Actually pretty much all of his videos have this exact problem. He is pretty much always talking to salesmen and if I know something from visiting conferences and exhibitions... Salesmen often don´t really have a clue :D
Ground source heat pumps have a high up front cost. These installers are salesmen and the +50% cost cited is wishful thinking at best. It's like solar panels; you pay a lot up front and then you save a lot in operating costs. There is a "return on investment".
That having been said, if we would stop treating nuclear energy as a boogeyman, today's energy supply would be so cheap that we could all run electric resistance heat and it wouldn't matter.
I always wondered if it could keep up in the extreme cold. My wife love my house at 78 in the winter.
Should be no problem. We keep our Geo at 73 this time of year. It's 34 degrees (F) outside as I write this and my ground loop temp is a steady 52 degrees. The heating mode is running but it's on the lowest (level 1) speed and the whole system is only drawing 808 watts. We had ours installed in 2016 and reduced our household heating/cooling costs to about 1/3 of what they once were. Getting about 1/3 of the cost back in tax credits and incentives from our energy supplier made the cost only about $1500 more than a comparable air-sourced heat pump. The only problem is that nobody understands this stuff and we're thinking of selling soon. It's a question mark for potential buyers, so an increasing number of videos on CZcams like this are nice to see.
Would it be possible to use geothermal in conjunction with a HRV/ERV? Would this be wise? or would this needlessly cost more for your monthly energy bill?
On year 21 of our Direct Expansion system (Closed loop R220) and loving it. On cost, however... The conversation there in this video is DEFINITELY deceptive. GHP installs are still VERY expensive. Up here in Canada, it is not uncommon for a closed loop glycol setup to go well past $50,000. You can buy a lot of other equipment with that kind of money.
But regardless, long term, I think they are worth it. If you are going to or at least plan to stay in the house for a good long time, go for it. When we did our build, (Owner contracted my build), we were able to get all the costs managed such that our ROI was less than 5 years.
Not sure what well water temps are up there, but the initial install costs are not higher than any system if well water is on site.
Matt, it would seem if you are building to passive house standards, that would negate a ROI on a geo thermal system. Or even take some fraction of the $$ spent on a geothermal and putting that into extra insulation would be a cheaper, less complex system.
Well not exactly. If building a passive home, very little geo-thermal is required in order to fully maintain the building's heat or cooling and it would happen automatically without any need for supervision. This would likely reduce well drilling costs and even total piping and likely size of pump/exchange too. Aside form paying to buy and install it, your house is then operating at net zero. Of course it takes a while to pay it off completely since you are paying for the house for a while, but those savings mean you pay it off sooner and reduce your monthly bills at the same time. This just requires more upfront costs, but better long term investment. In colder climates this would be ideal since the weather can change very quickly, and if you house responds as fast as the weather, is comfortable and saves you money its a win win.
If you cut your peak heat requirements by 75% with a PH, then you cut your ground loop and happen heat pump size by 75% too. The thing that jumped out at me during that video was "you didn't leave enough space to insulate the pipes". A good tip is to use rainwater down-pipe clips to hold the insulation, instead of direct clamping the pipes, and cutting insulation around them.
Put in 8 geothermal wells 10 yrs ago here in western Pa. Cost of the drilling was 2K/well. Then ran them to two forced air furnaces plus a water circulation furnace (using pex in basement and garage floor). Best decision ever. We’re all electric in a 8000 sq ft house. Winter bills about $550/mo. Summer a/c is about $200/mo.
James - We are looking for someone to do Geothermal and can't find anyone in Pittsburgh. Who did you use?
Great content
I still didnt understand what they was talking about..lol..but I love the points they made
quick and dirty explanation--geothermal systems bury long pipes underground. A fluid is pumped into the pipes and back into your house. in the winter, you get energy from the fluid, as the fluid coming out of the ground is warmer than the winter air temperature. In the summer, you pump warm fluid into the ground, it cools down to temperature below the summer air temperature, you pump that back into your house, cooling your house. (it's a big heat exchanger, like the radiator in your car---your car heats up, pumps fluid into the radiator, the air rushing into your car cools down the fluid, the engine gets the cooler fluid back. Instead of air, geothermals use the constant ground temperature to cool the liquid in the summer, or heat the liquid in the winter).
Built one of these systems commercial back in late 80s with my Dad who designed it and I think it was 20, 20ft wells (he owned a well drilling company at the time) without glycol, just water. In the summer building inside was about 65 degrees and you had to go outside to warm up and cost nothing to run. It was closed loop, fused fitting with a heat gun device and redundant pump system.
Odd that it seems that they are just getting to closed loop now and had open loops before, wow that was a bad idea.
They had closed loop systems over 30 years ago. And how did this system you speak of "cost nothing to run" in the summer time?
Matt,
I am starting a design for my new house build in Dallas, TX. Would it make sense to pair geothermal radiant in floor cooling and heating with hempcrete walls? Definitely interested in both options but would it be a smart move to do both?
Insulate your house. Use three pane windows. Maybe use icf. Put a radiant barrier around the house in Dallas. Do not use liquid in floor radiant especially for cooling. It is expensive, can leak in your slab, and the cooling can condense humidity. Put in floor electric wires in the bathrooms if you want warm floors in there. Use air to air heat pumps or standard ac with gas. The passive stuff is where you will really gain efficiency and a comfortable house. The mechanicals are nothing but a pain so keep them as simple and standard as possible.
If I ever did my farm I’d make underground water storage & above ground storage. My geo system would connect to 3 major connectors to my water system…one to the underground storage…an other metal above ground storage exposed to outside temperatures and my solar heated water system. This would allow precise and quicker control of the geothermal system that would do heating as well as cooling.
Yeah. I got an estimate for geothermal for my house. They wanted $60k. My house is 1600 sq ft with less than 40k btu heat loss. It was about $20k for the wells.
I don't know what they are talking about costs only being 50% higher than conventional. Maybe on these large jobs the cost to drill 4 wells vs. two isn't that much.
If price is your concern, it's cheaper to get an air source heat pump. The increased cost of running that system is less than the drilling cost for the ground source heat pump.
Bummer to hear. My guess is it definitely depends on where you are and whether you need to do vertical or horizontal boring. Either way like you mentioned 60k to 20k difference is gonna take a while to pay for itself even after the 60k is brought down by tax credits. So I think the moral of the story really would be check it out and depending on where you live, house size, and a few other conditions it may or may not be worth it for you. In my case it was well worth it.
@@BirdBuster91 Agreed. I was only able to get one quote.
I imagine the drilling cost where the video was filmed, RI, was extremely expensive. I live 15 miles from the RI border and you can’t dig a post hole without hitting rock.
Why are drilling so expensive in us? In Sweden we pay something like $6000 for a 600 feet well.
I've been a geothermal driller before.
25 years WOW (Matt) ** My wife and I have been in the same house since 1998 - I guess it's about time to move or blow up the house LOL
My dad is still in the house he bought in 72. Still running the same natural gas forced air unit that was installed when the house was built in 70.
my thought exactly. if those loops don't last 50 years what a joke
Useful trades professional's experience!
I installed a open loop in 2008, minor issues over the years, but overall I'm 75% satisfied. I was stupid and only had two quotes and went with the flashy salesman (who said they had installed "hundreds") and only later was told that the company had only installed two prior geo's. Our retro fit system, with well and ductwork done prior to the install, cost 28k, with a gas "backup" furnace. The hidden cost is the electricity usage, it tripled and we ended up surprised and angry at the time, but the system was in. The sting has worn off mostly by now, but research and get muliple quotes. And yes we had variable speed motors on our 2,500 sq. ft. house. The other thing--seems minor but isn't--make sure the contractor uses control systems that are compatible with each other. The geo contractor had so many different manufacturers involved in our system that we later (5 yrs), we had all the control boards and valves replaced and since then the system has been reliable. If you live in a hot climate, the air conditioning is by far the best part of the geo benefits.
When I see a video that affirms the preconceived notions I already had, I instantly click Like, lol.
That is a ground source heat pump not Geo Thermal. Two different animals. That said GSHP units are great however the cost issue of the wells varies greatly around the country. Here in North TX drilling 4 wells is cost prohibitive as those 4 holes will cost as much as a nice house.
Said "ground source" heat comes from... get this... GEOTHERMAL. And, a standard 400ft deep hole, for a single house in Texas where your load is AC, is good for about 8ton HVAC unit and not Heating, a single well will suffice and maybe require 2 if you have a REALLY big house. Each hole will cost ~$15k. Housing in Texas costs a hell of a lot more than $30k. True, you have to get off your fat ass and put in the pipes, but even lard boys can buy a 1000ft of tubing and dump it down a well hole, add some sand for more thermal contact if the water table is low and connect a couple of fittings. Oh, and get this: if you aren't stupid, you can use that well as domestic water as well if you ignore the bureaucrats. PS: If you really wanted to save $$$, use solar thermal for your heat source for AC, or better yet, both.
Hey Matt! Love your show, been a subscriber for a while. What are your thoughts on pre-fab construction? I'm a mom&pop real estate investor with several single-family/duplex rental properties but I am considering developing on land using pre-fab to either sell or rent out. I'm hoping pre-fab would cut down on cost and simplify the process, but not sure what the realities are. Are there any pre-fab companies you would recommend that service NorCal and do you think it would offer cost savings for a developer? We built our house and we're not newbies to the process of building but are certainly not pro developers and would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Are you referring to houses that come in sections and assembled onsite? My brother's neighbor had his whole house assembled in 3-4d days pre-fabbed walls. It was quite amazing and there was a small savings of around 15-20% for that particular part of the job.
I have a question, does it take more energy to extract heat from this system over time? I mean, does the ground get chilled from the dumping back of the cold and removal of the heat?
I guess using the system for AC in Summer would restore some heat to the loop area's..
I wonder if fridges and freezers could dump their heat into the system too?
Water well and you're all done....none of this complexity. If you currently are on a water well system, 90% percent of the cost is already done.
The answer to your question is yes: if the amount of heat you extract in the winter is out of balance with the one you inject back to the ground during the summer, you'll see a slow (i.e. over many years) decrease in temperature around the probes. This is a well known issue with geothermal that has attracted quite a bit of academic research and field tests. The implication of this phenomenon is that vertical closed loop systems are much more sustainable in the long term in temperate climates.
Note that this slow cooling does not continue indefinitely: the ground around the probes will eventually reach a new equilibrium with the surrounding rock/sediment.
How much $ will geo save in a hot climate like Austin?
Cooling from 55° VS 110° is probably helpful . I looked into them decades ago . I’d prob just go mini split now .
That depends on how many things you have running on your system. Your potential savings goes up depending on how many things you have running on your loop. Heat/AC is the biggest one but you can add a domestic water heater or even a pool heater. Adding more devices like that that take heat out of the system would be recommended for a climate like Austin where most of the year your AC is running, dumping heat into your loop. You generally want to balance your annual heat flux so the ground doesn't saturate with too much (or too little) heat and your heat pump appliances on the loop can't operate efficiently, negating your energy savings.
Digging a well into rock is more expensive than digging into clay, so it depends what's under your lot.
John Haller Big dirt field, no rock
i worked on a job near Vancouver BC, they just ran the lines in the ocean
Pond geothermal works, yup :)
Does this work with in-floor hydronic heat (no duct work)? Also does it work with horizontal trenches that can be dug with an excavator?
We purchased a geothermal house in Houston that was brand new. The AC repair men were in our community every day for the five years we lived there. I had three Lenox coils replaced in five years as did many of my neighbors. These systems would always break when we went from summer to winter and turned on the heat. It was not a reliable system at this location at all. The beauty of the system was its very quiet and we don’t have that noisy unite outside. But reliability is the biggest concern for this equipment. Also keep in mind these are like a Ferrari. Specialized AC people have to maintain them.
Geothermal traditionally is paired with a forced air system, how now days they can be used with VRF systems and use the same heads as mini splits. Several manufactures even have means of providing domestic hot water, so in the summer instead of dumping your excess heat outside or in the ground it can heat your bath.
Could you also use the excess heat pulled from the house to heat a pool in the summer?
@@Scootin159 that is a great idea. The exit of the house loop could certainly impact the pool. Exactly how would be interesting to understand.
My cousin in germany uses radiant floor heat in the winter and forced air in summer.
Dang that is one expensive home build!!!!
Matt, is it possible/practical to use geothermal for soil conditions in Dallas and Austin area?
Locate geothermal customers in the Dallas / Austin area and ask them personally ...
I know a woman who has a house with 13,000 heated/cooled square feet. She has a geothermal system and her highest electric bill ever was $600. She said it's usually in the $300-$400 range.
Lew. I wear the exact same thing every day.
We could be twins sir!
We built 11 years ago with credits Geo was about 2k more for 5 wells 150 ft. deep over the price of 95 % gas.it was a no brainer. 2700 sq. ft. ranch , full basement. The best part of Geo was " where is your air conditioner?" Oh, after building the house we did'nt have any money left for air conditioning.......lol
Hi can you hit on the benefits like what kind of energy savings could we see out of a system like this
Massive......and I mean massive.....but not like this. Have a water well installed and you'll have endless heating or cooling for a fraction of gas, oil, or air-source heat-pumps.
Geothermal should be the standard for new home construction.
Completely stupid idea.
@@mooredann69 Why do you you think it's a stupid idea?
@@burtonh1 Telling people what they need to have as a heating source is authoritarian. You don't know what works for them, let people make thier own decisions.
so what did this system cost? 40? 50k? 4 wells?!
When no one wants to say how much it costs then the cost is only affordable to people where money is no object.
Hard to say for sure because its vertical boring. Which is more expensive. Its 4 wells but you can see in video that basically just means 4 loops. Each pair of lines is one loop or well. Depending on how deep they went is how much it costs. By the ocean my guess is they dont have to go far because the soil is going to be very wet down there which is very beneficial for geo wells. All that being said I can tell you I'm building my own home and just had it done here is MN. I need an 8 loop field or 8 well system in this case. All are 300' loops. 7 ton system. Cost 67k for all the equipment and boring. Conventional system was quoted at 42k. So that's a 25k difference before tax credits. After the tax credits of 26% it comes down to 49.58k or an 18% increase. On top of that you actually can wrap as much as you possibly can into that 26% credit. As far as I understand it most the time foam under a foundation can be wrapped into it. Any additional electrical costs can. You basically get 26% off anything that is apart of the "system". Could be wrong on the whole 4 wells == the 4 loops thing but pretty sure they are 1 to 1. If your asking for personal reasons and are interested let me know and I can answer any other questions you might want to know about my system. - Edit just realized I should probably mention I went radiant heat. I'd imagine without that the conventional would of been less making the difference greater. That being said it took them a day to lay all the pipe and if I had to take a conservative guess it maybe costs 3k more.
Should break even when you turn 125.😜
@@BirdBuster91 Wow that's neat to see how far the system has come! My question is how many square feet will your 7 ton system heat? Does it also provide cooling or is it necessary to have an AC unit as well? Thanks!
@@carpentrylover145 😳
Having a basement below ground level is one of the cheapest options for many house owners. If one builds the basement to be used as a separate living area a family can rely upon the basement to be cooler in the summer and more resistant to bitter cold in the winter. So a family can plan to spend more time in the basement in the summer during heat waves instead of relying upon air conditioning. This uses the same concept of a geothermal heat pump system with none of the investment not adding to the homes value. Just my two cents!!!
Can confirm - I have an open loop water source heat pump and it sucks. High maintenance and not that efficient. Planning to replace with an air source heat pump because their efficiency has come a long way recently and the closed loop glycol type is not worth it to retrofit in my opinion.
Geo is the best option for Coastal areas. No condenser to get eroded by the salt air!!! Closed loop isn't new... In fact nothing in this video is new with in the last several years/decades.
geothermal is the best option nowhere. they are so much more expensive than air source systems that you would be better off to spend a few thousand dollars to replace the outdoor unit if it indeed got "eroded (sic) by the salt air".
@@paperwait9611 Not true at all. I had a geothermal system installed last year and with the tax credit, it cost me about the same as the most efficient air-source heat pump. 4 ton unit with four 200' wells.
@@91156 ymmv. i got a quote on a geothermal system for my (average sized) house and the quote was $45,000. i suppose if i worked at it hard enough, i could find a way to spend $30,000 on an air-source system, but it would take me some doing! then again, i guess it all depends on how liberally you define "it cost me about the same..."
In the northern US, I think a “Geo System” would work well. Anyplace that the delta T is sufficient in the winter months compared to the summer months, these types of systems tend to preform better. With that said, these types of systems in the southern US, i.e., Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, etc. do not tend to perform well. There is not a sufficient difference in the winter months compared to the summer months. I say this because when I was a mechanical designer, I worked with an engineer that would push these types of systems, in Oklahoma, and they almost never worked. He would layout the wells, I would size the pipe and route it into the building. We would also use a reverse return system and the wells would be 350ft deep. Closed loop systems. But they never worked right. This was also 25 years ago. I made a comment one time about the well spacing and he showed me on his “program” that he had that after 3 years the wells would be so hot they were basically ineffective. I made a comment about that and was basically told to be quiet. It’s his money to fix it not mine, right. So... up north, I’m sure it’d work well. Just not in the south.
Installed a Waterfurnace 7-series in 2016 into our 1850 sq ft ranch built in ‘88. Single 460’ closed loop well. There are no negatives to this system in my opinion. A friend of mine built a simile size house that same year and told me I was crazy. He put in a dual system, one propane and one coal. He was so happy he only spent $650 in coal the first winter. I heated and cooled for 12 months for only $400 and I guarantee his house has much better insulation.
Dave Cole how much did your system cost? Our house is just a little bigger and I am hoping to do a horizontal closed loop system. Have been reading good things about Waterfurnace too, so good to hear yours is working out still.
Nicholas McKellip $28k installed, $14,500 after tax rebates.
Question
How does one configure the amount of below ground requirement to the amount of square footage of a building, can you related to sizing a conventional boiler? Where is a reference source for this information?
It's based on cubic feet, not square feet using BTU's. For example, a 10 x 10 room with an 8 ft ceiling (800 cu ft) will require less than a 10 x 10 room with a 10 ft ceiling (1,000 cu ft). That's a 20% difference in required BTU's!
I don't know what the water sizing is. I do know that for air sizing in greenhouses we use 3.5 - 4X more cu ft than the greenhouse for the exchange. I sized my greenhouse geothermal to be 5X larger with a variable speed fan using temperature control. The 4" line is buried 8-14 ft below the greenhouse and spaced 18" on center between the run. This allows me to maintain 58 degrees F minimum in the dead of winter with minimal supplemental heating and during the summer to bring in much cooler air. I believe water is very similar since the laws of thermal dynamics are the same, it just requires water to air exchanger.
This is extremely dependent on your local geology and is why you want to make sure you are using a highly competent contractor to design your system.
This Big guy is soo well spoken!