Do Not Use MLV When Soundproofing
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- FREE Soundproofing Workshop: www.soundproofyourstudio.com/...
Yup, you read that right. Don't do it! I am trying to stir up the internet on purpose. MLV is not as good at stopping sound as Green Glue with two layers of 5/8" drywall. I also am going to argue in the article that your soundproof room is only as strong as its weakest link, which in all rooms will most likely be the door.
1) You Are Only As Strong As Your Weakest Link
It is so important to understand that a soundproof wall with an STC rating of 63 and a soundproof door with an STC rating of 57 means that your room will have an overall STC of 57. Your wall will block a lot of sound, but those same sounds will come in your door that were blocked by your wall.
With this in mind it is extremely important to build your door so that it matches the STC of your wall.
So what does this have to do with MLV.
Let me explain.
2) MLV and Green Glue Increase Your Walls STC
That is a good thing right? Well, not so fast. If you build a doublle wall with just two layers of 5/8" drywall on both sides and achieve an STC of 63 then your door must also equal an STC of 63. To do this you must by a $5,000 plus door from a soundproof door supplier or build your own. To build your own you must match the mass of your two walls.
So, two walls with an a combined STC of 63 means you have 4.4lb/sqft on one side and 4.4lb/sqft on the other side. If you build a single door it must equal 8.8lb/sqft. Lets say your door is 36" x 80" or 20 sqft. Then your door must weight 176lb at least. This is the minimum and more is better.
Now, if you add Green Glue to your walls then we know that is the equivalent of adding 2 more layers of drywall to your wall. The reason we know this is from lab testing and this information is also in Rod Gervais's book: Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros.
This would double our mass needed on our door to 352lb's. Yes, that is a very heavy door.
If you add MLV you will need to figure out how the added weight and damping effect of MLV will increase your soundproofing and adjust the door mass accordingly. Since Green Glue performs better than MLV my guess is you could build a slightly lighter door.
My point is that you may get enough soundproofing from just the two layers of drywall on each wall. This would mean you are wasting money on Green Glue or MLV. Or if you do use the damping products you must increase the mass of your doors and windows accordingly. This will increase cost overall and may, again not be needed.
3) Green Glue performs better than MLV
According to Lab Tests done by the Green Glue company with a private third party lab, Green Glue simply performs better than MLV. Look at this graph from the Green Glue company below.
You can see that Green Glue outperforms MLV except at 125hz. It performs better than MLV in general over the entire frequency spectrum. So, my question to you is why would you use MLV over Green Glue? Why would you use MLV over just two layers of 5/8" drywall?
Is it because MLV is advertised well all over the internet? That is true and most searches for soundproofing will lead you to MLV. That is called great SEO and it makes MLV suppliers a lot of money. The bummer is that you are the one losing out, not them.
Conclusion
My point is that adding damping in the form of MLV or Green Glue will improve the STC and Transmission Loss of your walls, but do you have the means to also increase the STC and TL of your door as well? If not, then do not bother with either MLV or Green Glue. Next, we know from lab tests that Green Glue performs better so if you are going to add a damping layer to your soundproof design please use Green Glue and not MLV.
0:00 - Only As Strong As Your Weakest Link
2:09 - STC
3:11 - The Problem with MLV and GG
4:37 - The Problem with STC Ratings
4:53 - The Benefit of GG
5:57 - Doors and Mass
8:24 - Conclusion
FREE Soundproofing Workshop: www.soundproofyourstudio.com/workshop
I swear researching how to soundproof my room is going to convert me into a conspiracy theorist.
Hahaha, I feel ya
Apparently, american part of the internet is not only full of BS about soundproofing, but lacks actually working solutions.
Best way to soundproofing wall is to build another wall on metal/wooden frame close to it, which is not conected to existing wall and connects adjacent 2 walls+ceil+floor only loosely, no rigid connections. Ibelieve MLV strip on metal frame here is actually the best use of it.
rockwool inside of metal frame, and 2 layers of densest drywall you can have - and thats it.
For floor and ceiling its the same but some additional things needed to cope with gravity..
It’s called decoupling a wall and you can do it far more effectively with spans clips and specialized furring or hat channel than the method you suggested because the hat channel contains tons of small perforations that deaden sound combined with being decoupled from the wall with clips.
American here and I guess we know more than you and your local populace about soundproofing.
You’re welcome for the free education.
MLV is not intended to completely soundproof a Recording Studio.
It is intended for regular applications, such as soundproofing your house against outside noise. Or in between rooms within a home or business.
MLV is great for STUDIOS if you use it sparingly. Apply to doors, or ceilings if there is a story above your studio. Also great for placing on the wall between the Sound Booth and your Control desk.
Thanks for the insight
Exactly. This is suspect at best. Another CZcams channel chalked full of experts... Does this guy even actually have a studio? I mean I see all the pics on the videos but then all of them are in his living room. Passion doesn't equal experience good sir. Got a degree in acoustical engineering? Anything?
@@thehighend4545 Nah this guy is a typical youtuber, google a few things and then claims to be an expert.
That's not true. I know a company that designs wall construction that's used in studio environment or critical listening rooms and they have a goal of reaching 30dB ambient noise floor or LOWER. They use MLV in their designs and they design rooms (if necessary) down to whatever frequency is required as per the customer's requirements. They've built rooms that go down to 30hz or lower, if necessary. But it all depends on the customer's requirements.
The first thing they have done is a noise study, so they know the amplitude and frequencies of the noise they are trying to build a barrier for and they need to know how much they need to attenuate. If you don't do any sort of noise study, then you are then wasting your time/money because you can't guess amplitudes and frequencies.
But to say that MLV isn't used in high end audio applications like a studio or a critical listening environment is nonsense.
It's used to decouple one material from another. it's used in contained layer wall construction design.. MLV is more of a barrier than an adhesive. Adhesives rarely have 100% coverage and aren't even really a barrier between to sounds. It's more for decoupling. MLV can also be purchased in different thicknesses.
Flawed logic here, basically around two issues:
1. The Perfect is the enemy of the Good:
So, c'mon man. If your door doesn't live up to the soundproofing that's in your walls, that doesn't mean that your room drops to zero STC; it just means that the room won't be as quiet as it could be. And yeah, yeah, I've heard the argument that a small crack in the shielding from not sealing your plugbox cutouts will let HALF the sound back in. B.S.
Most of the rooms your advising for have already been built, so some of your recommendations will be off the table anyway. Why NOT use 'add on' improvements? Unless you're involved in new construction of a recording studio, there's no point in chasing absolutes.
2. My Way or the Highway
You don't say so explicitly, but it seems your focus IS on music spaces, listening rooms, etc. But there are MANY other applications where extra sheetrock (added sheets or 5/8th"), MLV, Greenglue, or Carpet glue will yield fantastic results! Say you've got a wall closet with bathroom drainpipes behind the wall. There's no windows or doors, and using any or a combination of the aforementioned options can easily protect the silence of a lower apartment unit. Yet you're attempting to shotgun a technology just because it may not be a panacea for YOUR particular (and rather specialized) circumstances.
If you can get passed your bias, I'm sure your free workshop will be improved. (or maybe you're working for the Sheetrock Cartel? LOL!)
Def working for the Sheetrock cartel;)
I've found that dry baked sand can drastically improve isolation. Inside doors, floors, monitor stands, even flush-mount loudspeaker walls.
Good point!
You are the only person I’ve seen say don’t use mlv…so I’m guessing you are wrong
Well, there is a thing called group think. Be wary of following a crowd over a cliff.
Yea hes wrong
Different materials address different frequencies, combinations make for improvement. The point is if your not addressing your weakest link, then buying rolls of mlv isn't the best use of your money. You can make your own window and door covers, using some of your mlv combined with other materials to cover these areas to work to bring your entire room up to a consistent level. Very good points, some places mention the need to address windows and doors, also thinking beyond a simple sound proof room to isolating two rooms with a shared wall, no doorway.
There is absolutely no such thing as "group thing", anywhere in the world, nor has there ever been.
@doca9357 let's say I live in a town house or a home with separate sides that don't have a way to walk though( each side has it's own entrance etc.
If I just want to soundproof the wall that connects my side of the house from the other,and my entrance to my home is not on the connecting wall , something like mlv would definitely work. My goal is to stop noise from my side going to there's (because the adjacent room is a bedroom.
You are correct about the weakest link being an area of focus. Removing MLV makes walls equally as bad as doors and windows. Doubling up doors and windows is the best way to go. That makes them as soundproof as your MLV sandwiched or green glued walls.
Thanks for watching
I would agree with your assessment , what are your thoughts on sand ? I'm building my room and need pocket doors.I am building the door with 1 inch tube steel covered with baltic birch 1/4 inch and filling door cavity with dry packed sand but the door can't be sealed with a tight weather stripping like "normal doors
A sand filled door is a good option. Here is a video on it: czcams.com/video/3Czf99YoUcI/video.html
I would agree that doors and windows tend to be the weakest link, unless you somehow happen to live in a place with very thin walls but super soundproof doors and windows already. But this relates to airborne noise. Some noise however comes from walls, ceiling or floor directly, and then it's a different topic.
For example, in case of the flat where I live, most of the noise does indeed come through the door and windows - street noise comes through the window as evident from the fact that closing the window greatly reduces the noise. Noise from my flatmates comes mostly through the door, as evident from the fact that closing the door makes a huge difference. I've good reasons to believe that walls around my bedroom block noise really well, as they are thick reinforced concrete walls.
However, as far as I can tell, when I hear footsteps from the floor above my bedroom, these are mostly coming through the ceiling - not through the window or the door. This doesn't mean that ceiling is the weakest link. It just means it is the closest to the source of the noise, and the fact the noise only has to travel through solids before reaching my room. I don't, for instance, hear any other sounds from above. Only footsteps (and dropped objects etc.).
Also, the loudest noise I've ever experienced in my bedroom was when the housing association hired some workers to do some work in the basement (2 floors below my flat) and they were drilling through concrete and rebar walls... for hours upon hours, roughly 3 days a week for about a month. That was awful. But anyway, I presume the sound was traveling mostly through the walls rather than through the air, so again, in that case I doubt soundproofing the doors and windows would do much. So the 'weakest link' theory seems to have some flaws.
(granted - trying to soundproof the room against that noise would not be effective if the doors were left as a weak point, since the noise would still go from the walls to the air in the corridor for example, and then could come from the corridor through the door, to the bedroom. Thus I would have to either soundproof the door - or the corridor - to address that, and so on)
But still, the path to my room through the corridor would be less direct than the path through my bedroom wall, thus - given no soundproofing - it would be louder from the wall than from the corridor, and thus the wall would need to be more soundproof than the door (though not by much).
Also, another source of noise, but that's mostly in the kitchen and bathroom areas, is from ventilation pipes since those are shared vertically between flats.
Thanks for watching and sharing
What are your thoughts on staggered stud walls with 2 layers of drywall on wach side using green glue between layers? Will that also give an STC of 63?
It won’t, but it is a viable option if space and funds are limited.
So are you suggesting constency throughout? I have asded 5/8 drywall to the livingroom ceiling and hall and was going to add additional mass onto the ceiling of my bedroom with either mlv or green glue. Would the room not be more quiet ? Note: I live in a single story condo with an upstairs neighbor problem.
Every situation is unique. Remember mass, airtight and decouple.
How effective has the 5/8 drywall been in reducing the upstairs noise? Do you have recessed lights?
@annoyingangel611 about 60 percent reduction. It was adequate but not enough. I could still hear bass and footsteps but its more faint. If I had the budget I would have demoed added insulation and decoupled but that would be over double the cost.
I think personally putting MLV under exterior siding seems to be its ultimate use case
Interesting, never really heard that.
Basically this video should be titled "Beef up your windows and doors to the same level as your walls".
Regardless of the STR you aim for or the method you choose to achieve it.
Yes, that is correct.
I need your recommendation, live in a busy street in an older house. How do I minimize the road noise if I don’t want to go back to the studs? Should I put MLV, 5/8 drywall on top of the existing wall
I wouldn't recommend doing any soundproofing if you are not willing to go down to the studs and look at the whole room not just the walls. Wish I could give a better answer.
You can use MLV over existing drywall. It can be painted with Latex paint and it’s easily removed.
I did the exact same thing for my 11th floor condo in downtown Ft Lauderdale, Florida.
@@TargetAcquisition how thick and was it effective?
so if this isnt great, then what even should we use?
i have an open gap that i want to cover and block most of that noise and light coming in, its 118" x 20.25" x 3 5/8", my apartment room is "semi private" aka the divider doesnt reach the tap
how should i fill it/ cover it without using construction or putting holes in
Good ole drywall works well
@@soundproofyourstudio kinda cant do drywall, no construction allowed and such, i ended up doing cardboard and duct tape to create a light barrier, can still hear him unfortunately
I have a window in the room where I record. My thought was to add some never-hardens caulk around it and staple double-thick MLV over the window (airtight). And replace my door with a stout and heavy plywood/fiberglass/plywood sandwich (with gaskets and floor sweeper. And live with the walls as they are. Thoughts?
I did a video on window plugs. I would recommend checking it out.
I don't have a studio, but my mancave must have peace and quiet from neighbors and passing cars blasting music. Cheap as possible... I used 1/2" hard plywood over my interior hollow core basement door and weather stripping and it made a world of difference. The middle barrier sound wall is 5/8" drywall on top of MLV on top of 1/2" drywall, Rockwool behind that and another 5/8" drywall on top of that. Very quiet.
I live off the highway and my windows take up about 30% of my wallspace and with the setup I have now my walls are at 40 STC. However, my triple pane windows are now the weakpoint (rated at 35 STC), so my question is; would it be pointless to add a 2nd layer of 5/8 drywall?
It may help, but yes I would also look at adding inserts to your windows first.
MLV is used to mitigate noise between floors and they work fine. Much cheaper than putting green glue all over your ceiling and adding another layer of sheet rock.
It really depends on what your goals are. In normal residential construction the build is very different from what I recommend. Just adding mass is fine, but are you decoupling the ceiling?
IT cant be sandwiched at all or else it is totally useless. The green glue plus another drywall layer will be far better
i want to block noise such as my neighbours bass/music coming into my room.... would MLV be helpful for that? i hear it coming from one specific area...so i was thinking of using it for that one specific area..
It could be. Do some research on mlv, drywall, green glue and quiet rock
I know this is an older video, but thank you for this. I've been trying watch every sound proofing video I can find, and a lot of opinions are said, but not many of them actually give the facts about it like you do. Thank you so so much. Subscribed and now it's time to binge everything on your channel!
Glad it helped!
Thanks for sharing the video. I'm building a house with a studio for podcasting. I was considering spending $3500 for Acoutiblok and $2000 for labor for a 16'x16'x9' room in addition to the drywall and insulation batts. You are the third resource that has indicated that soundproofing is only as good as its weakest link. It's like a solid titanium boat with a small hole in it, you will still leak water in. I'll spend my money on improving the door and adding an insert to the windows (required by code) adding more mass via double layers of 5/8" drywall. Very good comments from others on this thread.
Glad it helped
I rent at a building with a ton of other musicians and the drummer across the hall makes it impossible to work. I can say with certainly my door is where most of the noise is coming in from - how would you suggest beefing up my door, since I am not allowed to switch it for a new one?
Add as much mass as possible and make sure it is airtight
I recently tried soundproofing my bedroom door, and what worked for me was:
1) a 1/4 inch sheet of MLV attached to the inside of the door with double sided tape (with the side and top edges overlapping the gap between the door and frame)
2) weather stripping all around the frame
3) a sweeper to seal the bottom gap
All in all, about $100 and 3 hours of my time. It was a *massive* improvement.
Speaking of doors, would 3 layers of 5/8 mdf with green glue between them do the trick? I would prefer to make my own rather buy them. What say you?
It’s all about mass with doors. If 5/8 msg gets the door to the weight you need then great. The green glue or even MLV can help with damping.
I’m building a studio in midtown Manhattan as we speak its a huge build out every room has iac doors stc rating of 54 it’s a special way they install the doors nothing is leaking out at all I brought 15 doors the isolation is incredible my wall assembly is 1 layer of gyp 3 layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside air gap then 1 layer of plywood 3 layers on the outside walls everything is decoupled you can’t hear anything I mean nothing and this is in 10 different rooms four have auspurger 15inc with 18inc subs
Post a video tour of your build. Others would be interested to see.
Sounds pretty soundproof
But your door opens to the inside of the house, and for most people it's outside noise they need to block, or upstairs/downstairs noise. You can also put heavy drapes around the door or even some big plywood and acoustic foam popped against it when in use - or a double door system. So it does not need to be as big of an achilles heel as it may first seem.
I disagree
how do you disagree, covering the door doesnt work? and that still doesnt solve the problem im not putting gg or any glue in my door either so even if i still just use green glue on everything the door is still just an issue that you have to fix by buying a seperate door which ig is the point of this video?@@soundproofyourstudio
Looking to soundproof my drum room in my home studio. This was helpful info! Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
This is a bit like saying "If it's cold outside, wearing a jacket is useless because you're not wearing a hat". Sure, you should probably wear a hat as well, but that doesn't somehow negate the effectiveness of jackets keeping you warm. In the same way, just because your studio door is poorly insulated does not negate the effectiveness of MLV for wall, ceiling and floor insulation purposes. Flawed logic.
Sorry agree to disagree on this one.
Spot on. He's some type of purist that is completely blind to reality. Maybe he does it just for the activity in the comments, but he's shown me that he's not worth listening to.
@@Tom-fz6pe Just here to rile people up...no I am here to create dialogue and see different perspectives. It's just youtube Tom chill my friend.
I am an audio engineer, and have just launched a company installing sound systems. Right now I’m focusing on cars, and the car audio market is CONVINCED that in order to treat the door, which is basically a speaker enclosure for the woofer, we need to deaden the metal (butyl tape works for this and is VERY cheap compared to the panels that are sold) and then absorb the sound inside the door’s airspace with mlv(but I can’t help but think that there is a better and cheaper option that is also easier to diy).
When it comes to car soundproofing MLV might be your best bet, but I don’t know much about car soundproofing.
@@soundproofyourstudio Hi, MLV isn't widely available in my country.
I am living in a small apartment, the room has an attic, wall are made out of concrete.
- 1 windows, (99% not sound proof) at all. I can easily hear phone sounds, people talking/ laughing when I rest in the attic.
- 1 doors, metal glass door (not very soundproof), but still better than the almost-no-soundproof window. It also not 100% sealed when closed so i'll try to seal it.
The windows has iron frame, I also cannot replace it, like I would buy soundproofing material and put it on top of that iron frame, it would protrude compared to the wall surface of the room. I cannot install it between 2 walls, since I only have 1 concrete wall (thickess is about 100 milimeters).
What budget, good material that you recommend?
@@shoeshd6353 it’s hard to know from just your comment what is really going on in your room. I recommend indow window inserts and replacing your door with a heavier solid core door and sealing it up with zero international door seals.
Couldn't you just use expanding foam?
Does anyone know if an insulated panel would work against engine noise or mass loaded vinyl?? Someone on Reddit recommended me in using it on my window
One product won’t work alone. It is a complete system
@@soundproofyourstudio how so a complete system?
Hey thanks for this information. However I'm a little confused. In previous videos you've recommended using green glue, with a double wall system and then using two fully weather stripped air tight solid core communicating doors. I dont think you mention making the two doors any heavier? Unless im missing something?
I am continually learning and shifting what I think is best. Sometimes things I said in the past may not be my current thoughts right now.
@@soundproofyourstudio Totally fair. Really appreciate your videos and always replying to comments....its been really helpful for my build.
so what to do to reduce transmission between an existing wall without the need for demolition?
Not much. You could add mass and hope for the best.
If the door is on the left and the sound is coming from the right, wont the extra protection from the walls still block it, even if the door has a worse rating
Build it and find out. It is a complete system. You need to think of it as a whole with all assemblies working together to minimize sound. If you don’t like what I’m saying then don’t second guess yourself. You seem like you know what you want to do already.
@soundproofyourstudio well I'm just asking about a different situation since you seem to know about soundproofing. There's a dog outside that barks so the sound isn't coming from my bedroom door, it's coming from the outside thru the walls. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking about a different scenario and wondering if the soundproofing will still help. Thanks for your videos
Nice question ,To answer your question I think beefing walls absolutely improve soundproofing especially if the wall and door are too far
with respect to the owner of this video Imagine the distance between a weak door and wall in this question are 1km can we say the STC of this room is the stc of weak door?!
@@usa5439you need to sound proof the door as well,even a little Crack in the door will let a LOT of sound through. Electrical outlets will let in a lot as well.
Used the GG system as well as the heavy duty soundclips and it did an amazing job of stopping the drum noise going to the upstairs. That said, if the GG company did the testing vs limp hung MLV I would be a bit skeptical of it, We would have to see independent testing done to confirm this.
The other thing is that MLV can only be used if it is hung limply and not sandwiched as that will defeat the purpose of it
I agree. I want to do a video on in depth tests from around the world of green glue. They are out there, but you have to do some digging.
well.. I went with a open spray foam, air gap, MLV, resilient clips with aluminium channels to decouple a wall, dual sheetrock w green glue in between, acoustic caulk in between walls - they don't touch; regular heavy full door, another entrance room with another regular metal door. Perfection. Don't regret any single step and everything works as intended. MVL is great but needs to be limp otherwise it doens't do much. An airgap space on both sides; holes and seams need to be sealed. My space is the quietest space I've ever been at. I don't believe that double sheetrock with a green glue alone would ever do it
. No way imo. The door was an issue, but if you can manage to put another door further away, it is amazing.
Glad it worked. You would be surprised what double walls can do.
I'd just counter that adding a door isn't really helpful in all cases. My studio window and wall faces a highway nearly two streets down, so a door won't do anything to block the highway noise at all. Outside noise mainly comes from that direction, rather than all around.
I don’t recommend only soundproofing single walls, but you could always try it and see if it works. To really ensure isolation you must focus on the room as a whole.
What?? It’s not anything in your mind, MLV still works just cos you didn’t fit it properly doesn’t mean it doesn’t..
I like to use it for my acoustic wall designs but not the soundproofing isolation system.
good points, had never considered the Visceoelastic /stretch caulking as an alternative to green glue COMPOUND, but I am considering using Roberts carpet glue. Of course there’s no long-term testing on this, if any audio testing at all…
Carpet glue is just a theory, but people do it. I don’t, but it could work.
Could I not use MLV and/or green glue on the door to get that consistency?
You can add MLV, green glue really anything you want to get that mass consistency. Note that GG and MLV are both damping agents. That is different than the affect mass alone has on soundproofing.
All the more reason to not buy your doors. Make your own. Mine blocked ALL sound from a piano. Room within a room construction. Completely inaudible outside the room.
@ 8:20 you mention that a door will cost thousands and thousands of dollars. Well, not if you make your own. Get 2-3 solid slab doors at home depot and fasten them all together for door #1 and repeat for door #2. Avoid all windows Then you need to fabricate the door jambs and super beefy hinges and the thresholds/rubber seals to keep the sound out . DONE. Cost me way under $1000
Solid! Glad it worked.
Can we use Green Glue or Mass Loaded Vinyl to somehow help soundproof our door?
Sure. Mass is best. Green glue can’t hurt.
I need to build a little soundbooth to block out my singing so I dont piss off the neighboors. Any advice what to use?
It’s complicated so keep watching videos to learn how to soundproof. You will get lots of design ideas.
I think that by soundproofing the ceiling to my basement theater, I'm directing where the sound leaks. I can agree that the door to my basement will leak sound and as such I have no choice but to mitigate as much as I can. That said, If I can reduce how much sound gets to my living room upstairs, MLV and Green glue may be good choices. Sound at the doorway to the basement will be louder but I gotta think that its better than bleeding from the floor upstairs. I feel that your logic in this is to toss the baby with the bath water. I will evaluate your stance going forward but I don't see it now. For my basement ceiling, I'm still looking at MLV and Green Glue along with mineral wool insulation to keep sound going up into my floors. With my door being my weak link, I still think that the rest should be controlled. Until I see this differently. I appreciate the opposing view.
Fair enough. You can use all these products. I take the stance is it the most effective love and cost efficient method. Three to four layers of drywall on the ceiling would most likely work better, but does take up more space.
@@soundproofyourstudioI respect that. I have an added issue of a low(er) ceiling height. While cost is a factor so too is physical space. I'm still considering your advice.
Also you can do what this hotel in nyc did and just framed another high quality soundproof window stacked on the interior side of the old window. So its like 8 panes of glass
8 panes of glass is a lot of mass!
Wouldn't the smart thing to do be to put mass loaded on all the walls including the door along with a good door seal?
You could. MLV costs over $5 per square foot while drywall is $0.53 per square foot. I think it really comes down to cost and value for the money.
And yet I have used MLV in a few different applications and it worked beautifully. Used it on doors and window plugs it dropped the sound level by at least half.
It works but is super expensive compared to 5/8 drywall. My stance these days is use it only as needed and don’t default to it.
@@soundproofyourstudio I agree that it is more expensive than drywall, which is why I used it only on doors and for window plugs. I would not use it to soundproof an entire wall.
The OP is treating STC as an absolute thing. But, surely surface area of each of the surfaces plays a role in this argument. It defies logic that if I halve the area of the door it will transmit the same total amount of sound as a full size door. By this logic, the STC rating of the walls is likely more important in aggregate than that of the door, ie: because there is much more wall area than door area for the sound to escape through. I am not disputing that the door is important. However, I am wondering, in the system as a whole, if it is the STC, or the STC/m^2, Or something else. Whatever, this answer will likely depend of the wavelength relative to the dimensions of the area in question,
Yes, the area of soundproofing will certainly help, but from experience I can assure you if you had super heavy isolated walls and a weak door you would hear sounds all coming from the door. The walls would be mostly irrelevant. For example, let’s say a jet flies by. The walls would not transmit the sound, so you would hear the jet coming from the door nowhere else, but it would still be sound in the room. There is no midway with isolation. It is all or nothing.
Maybe I missed it, but why is it so important to have the outside and inside walls the same weight? If there's green glue on the outside wall, but not the inside wall, what is so detrimental? Obviously more mass is better, got it, but I'm just curious on why you're dug on this particular idea.
I think it comes down to the mass spring mass system. Ideally the system works best with two heavy masses on each side and a very loose spring aka big air gap. If one side is lopsided it is not ideal because sound will more readily pass through one side of your system thus wearing the whole system. Not sure that makes sense.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. The workshop video doesn't have a scroll bar or fast forward option. Is that the way it is .....or am I missing something... Your content is absolutely brilliant backed with scientific explanations by the way !!! Simply awesome 😊😊😊👍
That is the way it is. I may change that at some point, but for now it is meant to keep you focused on following the workshop in real time. Thanks for watching and I am so glad you have found the content helpful.
@@soundproofyourstudio ok ok understood 😊😊😊😊👍 while watching, at a few times I wanted to go back by 2-3 minutes and listen some points again. It didn't allow. Hence the question. Nothing major though.... All your videos are wonderful!!! 😊😊 and without any snake oil 😂😂
@@audfrknaveen2256 glad all the videos help. Yes, I am trying to teach this stuff in a simple practical manner that gets results for DIY musicians.
Another tip i will add,is use a solid wood door that's not hollow,solid wood doors deaden a lot of sound.
Very true
But wouldn't mass loaded vinyl be good for floors and ceilings? since there are no doors in either ^^
Mass loaded vinyl could be good for either, but my real point is you don’t need it. People are putting more emphasis on this product rather than the method of building. Does that make sense?
@@soundproofyourstudio I have a 100yr old house with basement. Adding MLV onto the basement ceiling with insulation and then drywall made the basement livable, truly changed our lives. There are great applications for MLV.
What I'm getting here is, MLV DOES help reduce sound transmission (that graph was further evidence), but it's not as good as using green glue in the way that was described. But MLV still works. Maybe not as good as advertised, but it still works.
I think MLV does work well it just a costs a ton. I use it for high end acoustic treatment these days, but not for isolation.
How about the vents for HVAC as a weak link?
No the vents in my system actually made my wall even more soundproof.
Great practical information !
Glad you think so!
This is true for soundproofing in a recording studio where you care about sound coming in, it is not true for soundproofing an entertainment room or home theater where your focus is on sound going out.
Isolation both ways is still important in studios and home theaters.
This is an interesting video but quite way too simplistic. Yes, the door is the weakest link but it might not be in the direction of the sound coming. For example your explanation does not work for a party wall where there is no windows and door. Yes you will probably get some flanking noise but it will be nowhere the level of the direct sound so you do not need the same stc between the window and the party wall. You also use data from green glue as a reference but it is bias as for sure green glue is going to promote their own product and there is independant study to show that green glue does very little and can easily replace by carpet glue which will do as well. So yes MLV is useful, especially when trying to stop low frequency from a party wall.
I do not agree with you on any of these points. First, sound travels around a party wall. So you can’t beef up your party wall and not worry about other walls, doors etc. second the lab report was done by a third party lab that is not connected to Green Glue. I could not find any research done by any company showing the lab results of MLV and two layers of drywall except the green glue company. Thanks for watching.
@@soundproofyourstudio I wonder if you read what I said as I explicitly said that you will get flanking noise but not the same level as the direct source of noise. Your all video and analysis is based on the flanking being at the same level which is incorrect. You should do more research as their are many videos and independent study between MLV and green glue. I was not looking for an agreement as your video are commercial orientation in bringing yourself business and as you responded to another comment that I made you are no expert in the matter so I guess we agree to disagree but for the people out there, watch others videos of people who are experts in the matters (and I do not mean company that produce those materials) and make your own opinions
@@fredericguyon1449 if you have any videos to share I am always learning. This community is not for these comments. It is meant to help each other out, not put each other down.
Please tell me how to soundproof the floor of my ADU from bass and mufflers from cars.
Okay, start with my soundproofing workshop. That will help you out a lot.
I have old brick walls that are very conducive to sounds from the other flat, pretty sure MLV and an extra layer of drywall will make a big difference
Are you sound isolating or just trying to treat acoustics or both?
@@soundproofyourstudio sound isolating
In a typically built room remove the door casing and look what is behind it. Air or sprayfoam most likely. Even if you have a solid door I would expect sound is seeping through around its perimeter. Why does no one talk about this?
This is why it is wise to build your door frame from scratch.
@@soundproofyourstudioSo far the recommendations I have found are to fill the gaps between the jamb and side walls with weather stripping, then spray foam, and then accoustical foam. Has anyone seen any better material to use?
I'm not hearing a reason why MLV on both sides of the door wouldn't work or why you wouldn't use Green Glue to mount the MLV
I wouldn’t recommend doing that.
So build an extra wall instead of using MLV to achieve the same effect? So glad you have the space to build at least an extra entire 4” wall inside your room. I don’t suppose you can put your full free course on YT instead of gathering our personal data on your website to get to the “free” video(s)?
Thanks for watching! I don’t offer a free course anymore. I just have a workshop. This is how I make a very meager living and I cannot give everything away for free and still deliver high quality content week after week. Sorry you feel this way.
Great Video Thanks mate!
Glad you liked it!
Well, well ;) First of all, thanks for an interesting video. It clearly makes a compelling case for the importance of a highly-rated door. The argument that "you're only as good as your weakest link," in this instance, has eluded me throughout my years of researching soundproofing. If proven accurate, it could greatly simplify the planning, execution, and budgeting of soundproof rooms for sure, offering a streamlined approach where plans and budgets are tailored based on the available door (or one that fits the budget).
In my case, for example, an Rw 50 dB door (a European unit, which isn't completely comparable to STC) is the most effective door I have found in my country. If there isn't any additional benefit in improving the insulation above Rw 50 for the rest of the construction, I wouldn't even need double studs or any green glue. I could settle for two fiberboards on steel studs. Even two of those 100 kg / 220 pounds steel doors would only add a 3 dB improvement, which is barely noticeable. Unless there are some doors available that I am not aware of (which is very possible, but these are said to be the best on the market), there wouldn't be any need for double studs for improved mass, decoupling, and additional insulation in any sound-dampening room in my country. That sounds peculiar. And upon closer scrutiny, I'm inclined to believe that this argument, at least in my assessment, falls short.
Airborne sound, as we understand it, transforms surfaces into membranes upon impact, effectively turning them into speakers. It logically follows that minimizing areas overall where sound waves can most effectively energize is crucial. While doors, given their size, represent a significant area, it stands to reason that real-world gains in soundproofing can be achieved by enhancing the walls, floor, and roof beyond the door's specifications, considering these surfaces, which constitute a larger area than a normal-sized door, would also play an important role in overall sound transmission. The bigger the room, the bigger the gain.
The principle draws parallels to heat insulation, where the exchange of heat and cold air aligns with the transmission of sound waves (even double stud walls are used similarly, as thermal bridging occurs much the same as in structural noise). Windows emerge as weak points in such scenarios too. Even with three layers, windows fall short of the insulation capacity that basic wall constructions can achieve, a disparity evident even in older buildings. However, if your walls constitute a significant area, it still remains sensible to minimize their thermal leakages above the ratings of your windows.
For the reasons given, I would expect the same principles to be at play in respect to sound insulation.
Very interesting argument. I dig it
what if one uses MLV curtains over a door or a window?
Could help some, but is not ideal.
Yeah. So, because the door is a relatively small aperture, its not going to completely compromise the entire room.
Have you built soundproof rooms before? The door is the weakest link regardless of size.
IS IT possible to soundproof 130db?
Yes, but probably cost prohibitive
i''m guessing this is going to be a lesson that i'm going to have to learn by experimenting
You could try MLV or adding drywall or a layer of drywall with green glue or quietrock. Really it’s not ideal, but mass and acoustic caulk may help. Good luck!
Iac doors are extremely expensive when you start getting into the 50s stc rating they can go from 13k a door to 21k a door but they are worth every penny you will have no leaks from your room threw the doors once they install and drop the seal it’s nothing but air tight in the room if you have the right build
A 20k door! I think that is a bit crazy haha. I
@@soundproofyourstudio for higher rated stc doors from vibration products the doors can cost 20k stc rated 55 and higher it’s a whole different build when you start building world class commercial recording studios
@@t.m.gmusic9771 for the DIY home studio that will never be an option, but good to know about.
There seems to be no agreement on soundproofing whatsoever
Haha, well there isn’t on the internet, but there are methods that continue to work that are tried and true.
@@soundproofyourstudio what would you suggest to soundproof a door, it's not my door so I can't get a heavier one or alter it in anyway, it's an old door that doesn't get opened so I can put something against it, what would you suggest? Is there something I could build to place against the door to block noise from leaving and entering? Thanks
You're forgetting one important thing... impedance. MLV affects impedance much more than GG. Both are effective if used correctly though. You are also not taking into account whats on the other side of each wall. Different walls call for different assemblies.
Yes that makes sense. I’m not sure what you mean by impedance.
Hit the J
today I learned mass loaded vinyl is great! I want to make a sound proof box not a sound proof room.
Yess MLV is used as a resonator in basstraps (with free space between the isofiber and MLV )👍
Go for it!
This is why most studios have double-doors.
Yes
I think a lot of people are less worried about walls, and more worried about floors and ceilings. Doors don't matter here. For example, I am making a finished room in my basement, and I need to isolate foot traffic from above.
Yes impact noise is a different measurement and different from soundproofing an entire room.
Youre basically saying that unless the doors have the same rating then it's a waste of time. But what if its an interior door to the home and all your sound is coming from outside. Having better soundproof walls WOULD help. And you didnt really disprove that MLV works you just said the green glue double method works a little better, according to green glues own data.
Then do what you want my friend. I’m just here to share what I know.
5:10 graph done by green glue company, shows better results for green glue...WOW!....I wonder why....
also you have TWO soundproof doors for a studio. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for watching
I came across this video because I'm trying to figure out how to sound proof my bedroom door. So I'm guessing stick MLV to it with green glue?
You could. I would watch my soundproof Door videos to learn more about how to do that.
I had an arsehole upstair neighbor with thin concrete floor. Any sound came from it was mostly low freq noise. MLV and other high density material worked well in reducing such sound. Green glue didnt work that well though.
Interesting.
You’re right but then you’re wrong. Are you preventing sound getting in or out. Whats on the other side of the door and the walls. Take a square room with 1 door. If you have a noise on the opposite side of the wall which is parallel to the wall with the door, that noice has to travel through that wall system before it has to get to the door. So it will all depend on the layout of the area you are wanting to protect against sound. If it was a busy road, you'd want to put a solid wall with no door on that side, and have. the door on the "quieter" side. Come off a street through a door, to then walk through another doorway with a STC 57 doorway in a STC 72 wall into a corridor that is ST72 round the corner through another ST57 door then your distance between doors will make a considerable difference
Thanks for watching
I did not hear a thing you said because I have soundproofed my ears with MLV. I rest my case! 😉
Haha right on
I agree with your points without disrespecting MLV
Yeah MLV has its uses for sure.
can I just move a mattress in front of the door after closing it
You can, but it might not get the results you are hoping for
I spent a lot of money putting down this stuff in my living area in my apartment and it was a waste of money 😓
Sorry to hear that.
MLV is only good on direct impact like under carpet where someone is stomping but its not practical for walls
It is in fact better for low end acoustic treatment according to Philip Newell
Isnt green glue renown to be shit for sound proofing?
every lab test ive watched shows it to be worse than most commerical fire retardant adhesives whicha re much cheaper.
I would love to see the tests you are looking at. I am recommending it less and less now. I don’t think it makes as big a difference as we are led to believe. Again the lab tests should prove all this one way or another.
Don’t know about green glue man it seemed to perform absolutely rubbish as evidenced in Dennis @ Acoustical field’s videos. I can’t take it seriously anymore.
Yes Dennis is a master salesman. He uses fear and authority to convince you everything you know is wrong and he has all the solutions. The problem, you have to pay Dennis to use his “proprietary” technology. He has a very specific soundproofing system that is unique to him and he would not send me any lab tests. Be wary of everything acoustic fields says. That is my humble opinion.
I used mlv then, r-15 sound proofing mineral wool, then 1/2 quiet rock then green glue with another layer of 5/8 regular board .. thats how you kick the sounds ass
Sounds like a good acoustic panel but I bet two walls would isolate better.
It looks like it is flammable
Could be not sure
ADDING GG= THE MASS OF 4 LAYERS OF DRYWALL
I´m inclined to believe that 4 layers of drywall glued with carpet glue, will perform better than a GG sandwich.
Specially in low frequencies.
Even in materials, it will actually cost less.
You need MASS to stop a bass amp and a kick drum. There is not much you can do about it.
I don’t really know much about carpet glue. It is used to glue carpets not stop sound. Jack of all ministries says it works as good as carpet glue, but I think there should be some more research.
@@soundproofyourstudio I don´t mean it has sound proof properties at all. It´s just any glue to evenly bond the 4 layers of drywall, which definitely give you more mass, that works better for low freqs.
I did the MLV thing while living in Texas. Total waste of money I could of spent on my door instead :).
Ahhhh I wish I could share your sentence with all of my students! Everyone is being fed MLV on the internet and they don't know how it works.
@@soundproofyourstudio I had a very persuasive salesman at a 'reputable' supplier for soundproofing oversell it. And the cost... phew...
Thanks for the videos! Learning a ton! Here's a question for anyone to help. I'm building a detached 24x24 garage with an office/studio on the 2nd floor. I'm not trying to sound proof as much reduce noise bleed out of two sides. One side faces my house the the front faces a neighbor's house. The other two sides face large wooded area, so i'm not concerned too much. Not worried about the door either although your point in this video is well taken. I have (3) 3x5 windows that I know will have the largest bleed. I'm planning on making removable "plugs" for those that I think will help dramatically using MDF and wood planking to add density and esthetics. I'm not concerned if a LITTLE noise is heard from outside as this is more of a rehearsal room. Mostly, I'm trying not to disturb my neighbors about 100 yrds away.
With all of that being said, I was considering 1 layer of sheetrock, a laver of MLV and a layer 5/8" wood planking/slat wall. I don't believe the planks are as dense as sheetrock, but they are pretty heavy. Basically sawdust and glue with a laminate. With the window plugs, hoping it would be good enough. Again, if you can't hear much 50ft away from the garage, I would be tickled pink.
You point out that green glue is better than MFV, so now I'm not sure.
Any recommendations for my situation and goal would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
I would definitely recommend singing up for a soundproof clarity call: www.soundproofyourstudio.com/Step1. Your situation may not need much, by why waste good money after bad when you don’t know if you will get the results you want?
@@soundproofyourstudio I think I just might do that. ;-) thanks
I'm thinking perhaps Green Glue company has great advertising tatctics
If the goal of sandwiching green glue between drywall is dampening then can't we use rubber,cloth,carpet and many other dampening materials between drywalls and get the same result?!
Maybe? The problem with this field is you technically should test everything in a verified lab to be able to truly compare results. This is why people doing at home or field tests are okay, but not really something we should base decisions on fully.
@@soundproofyourstudio yeah you're right, I'm searching for two years about soundproofing and have seen lab test are very rare and most of them consider just drywall assemblies and traditional green glue and not many other kind of walls and the worst scenario is I'm out of USA and Europe and can't get MLV or green glue and don't know what exactly I should replace them!
This only applies to people wanting to build a studio not people that want to increase the sound proof between stud walls and MLV if fine its like its all rubish because your walls are more sound proof than your door so MLV is bad
Honestly you can use MLV but it costs $3/square foot. If you want to add 5-10k to you build cost for what is probably not much of a difference go ahead and do it. My main stance these days is the cost vs benefit.
Every sound proofer: use mlv (and other stuff). Zoomie youtuber: DoNt uSe MlV. ok kid. whatever.
Not everyone. It helps, but is very expensive. I have found through Phillip Newell that MLV is much better in your acoustic wall versus the isolation wall.
The party walls I want to soundproof have no windows or doors.
Thanks for watching
100% incorrect. MLV is amazing. Install it prior to drywall or plywood.
After reading Philip Newell MLV is great for low end acoustics. Not sure I would still isolate with it. It’s just costly. Honestly, nothing beats two masonry walls.
awesome. common sense stuff , good call
Thanks for watching
I think we call this click bait. "Don't buy MLV because your door sucks worse than your walls and ceiling." You could just move your studio into a bank vault to fix that problem. Of course the only way to truly soundproof is to create a vacuum, so there's really no reason to even try!
I disagree, yes soundproof is misleading. Sound isolation is more accurate. It is worth it as someone who works in a soundproof room.
This guy has some serious secret discussions going on then. Hmmm.
Not sure what you mean.
@@soundproofyourstudio All that soundproofing, must have plenty secrets unless your just spanking the monkey to g@y porn
I'm always curious why they don't put in a common example of a wall assembly, where you have a party wall. Is it fair to assume, all else being equal, that if you have the STC 57 assembly, but your side is the one with the double 5/8" drywall, that you'll get somewhere between 57 and 63?
Not sure I follow. Ideally all walls are equal STC all the way around. Regardless of party wall.
Perhaps you should have said this was about insulating doors
I think I may make a part two with some other points on cost, installation difficulties and focus a bit more on the test data.
Why can’t you just put MLV on the door?
MLV has some weight, but most suppliers sell 1lb and it maxes out at 2lb. You certainly can use MLV, but if you just need weight there are other options too.
@@soundproofyourstudio I understand mass reduces sound transmission, but not all materials are created equal. So measuring by weight is not linear and doesn’t seem like the correct way of measuring sound transmission.
@@ScottFuckinRitchie yes, the best way to know for sure what TL is for a material is to have it lab tested. However mass law gets us really close to an accurate estimate of transmission loss. It’s also good not to get too lost in the details and build your studio and make music!
@@soundproofyourstudio absolutely. I just don’t buy into the green glue nonsense. Like you stated, for my case, it’s not worth the added cost since most of sound transmission is below 100hz.
@@ScottFuckinRitchie yeah green glue is more of a personal choice. There is some data that it improves low frequency TL, but you can still get good results without it.