Bojack Horseman - Did Hollyhock Make the Right Choice?
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- čas přidán 7. 03. 2020
- One of the biggest things that stuck out to me in the final season was Hollyhock's decision to separate herself from Bojack.
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Thanks for still doing videos on this show, I wish more people had content related to it.
it seems we're missing one piece of the puzzle here: the 7 dads that really don't like Bojack. While it's very likely Hollyhock did not tell them of the Maddie story, they definitely saw the interviews and i bet we can all guess what their reaction was. I would not be surprised if they forbid Hollyhock from having contact with her brother, and since she was already unsure of her feelings, she wouldn't have put up much of a fight. I know this is "technically" headcanon, but with all the talk about minors and responsibility, it seems reasonable to take Hollyhocks family into consideration
What were your references for the four questions about crime and punishment?
So now that you have had some time to reflect have you changed your opinion about HollyHocks decision?
Steven Dhondt ll
She wasn't trying to punish him she was uncomfortable with him
Yeah but she was his brother they shared blood
@@jakez5599 that doesn't matter at all and that logic allows abusers to continue abusing family members because the abuser assumes the victim will never leave "because they're family"
@@samw9003 yeah but that’s A completely different situation hollyhock knew bojack was changing but still left like everyone else
@@jakez5599 she didn’t know that, the show goes out of its way to show bojack “getting better” before nose diving again, I really don’t think she has much reason other than his word to believe he’s changing for the better. She doesn’t have any obligation to him other than an explanation of why she doesn’t want to continue their relationship which we can assume she gave in her letter. He was an actively toxic person for her to be around and she doesn’t owe him explanation nor can she really help him. We only see bojack ever get better when a professional is helping him. Just because bojack doesn’t try to be abusive doesn’t mean he isn’t. It’s totally fine for ppl to stop talking to someone if that person makes them uncomfortable.
She had enough to know that he could harm her.
Never forget the 17 minutes for Sarah Lynn. We cannot trust bojack no matter what his intentions might have been. He didn't even know he could go to those lengths. We can't accuse Hollyhock of being uninformed in her decision because that's all she needed to know, and she already knew him. It's also unfair for us to expect her to love him unconditionally. Hollyhock, being raised by 8 loving dads, and having healthy relationships with her friends, is more well adjusted than bojack, she knew her worth and the importance of cutting toxic people put of her life.
If you think hollyhock was in the wrong, you have never had to cut out a toxic loved one. Hollyhock doesn’t owe Bojack anything at that age.
Idc don’t leave bojack at his lowest
i hollyhock did the right thing and i love her but i am a person who has been cut off from a loved one’s life for being “toxic” so this thing made me so mad even tho I hollyhock did the right and i don’t know why, it’s probably because i can somewhat understand how bojack feels
@@notyouraverage1saiah660 if you know someone who’s at their lowest BUT they are the literal definition of poison (manipulative, abusive, selfish), you must leave immediately
doesn’t matter how they got there, it’s their consequences of their actions finally catching up and you can choose to go down with them or do the healthiest thing and leave
Either you are toxic yourself like Bojack, really stupid and missed the point or a literal kid who hasn’t lived yet if you think “you shouldn’t leave a person at their lowest despite how toxic they are”
@@notyouraverage1saiah660 Yea no. Bojack basically killed Sarahlynn, took advantage of her, almost took advantage of another child, ect. She has every right to not want any type of relationship with him especially since they didn’t have one for most of her life.
@@notyouraverage1saiah660 thats not her responsibility its bojacks to get better
she’s 17 and he’s 54. To even imply that they have equal responsibility in this is laughable. Hollyhock is within her right to do whatever she wants in the relationship.
Think 20
I believe she was like 21 then
@@bgos4727 When she cut out ties with Bojack.
But when she met him for First time, she was 17
I love the show and I sympathize with Bojack's upbringing but he did a lot of bad things and Biscuits Braxby was right he never took into account how much power he had over the women in his life, or he did and didn't care about the ramifications. Hollyhock may love Bojack because he is her brother but she has every right to have boundaries and cut him off if need be. I wish we knew what she said in her letter but I hope being in prison helps him change for the better and take responsibility for his actions.
If they were portrayed as humans rather than as animals, the reactions would be much, much different.
Can you imagine how Hollyhock felt after learning about Sara Lynn's overdose? Realizing that he didn't call the ambulance for 17 minutes with Sara Lynn was probably *terrifying* considering her history of overdosing at Bojack's house. To learn your brother let someone in your situation die must be incredibly haunting. In my opinion, she's justified in cutting him off for that alone.
Add on abandoning Maddie at the hospital with alcohol poisoning, she's probably wondering why she's still alive at this point
Yes, but he was high too, no one can act right in that state of mind. She was just a kid of course she can't handle so much darkness, she was a simple girl, not like his brother.
@@pitaariel1920like the 2nd interview said he consciously chose to wait, even on drugs he had the clarity to plan his own defence and put himself and his image first instead of being a good person. Nah the 17 minutes for me is inexcusable
Everyone seems to forget that at the point when Holy threw out Bojacks pills he put her in a horrible stressful situation, caused by ptsd. After that he put her in more of that while looking for drugs. He straight up showed her how to get that stuff on the street with no regard to her wellbeing. He even said - " no one needs drugs "when she asked him should they return Gina's medication. It's not that she distanced herself based on only rumors. If he treated her right she would have stayed, despite the interview. She saved herself.
Imma just leave my one cent here:
Cutting toxic people out of your life is not cowardice.
That is all
it's selfishness. I somewhat did that too, but I'm not gonna say "I HAD to!1!1 so tOxIc!1 HAD TO cAnCel" ... you feel guilty if you're not a heartless human being ... I'm not saying she did something bad (nor something good): she putted herself first, and only, that's all. Relationships, of all kinds, need work ... love too, and that work includes caring also for the toxic aspects of a person, a concept most people are completely loosing. PC put up with much more horrible things by BJ (I despised how he was with her) than Holly, and while keeping distances, she still decided to find a way to support and care for him. Hollyhock did the best, for her ... being, however selfish, and showing she really didn't care ... NOTHING wrong with that, you're free to be around who you want, expecially people like her brother, but still
@@XMarx-it1yj wtf dude how is it selfish to cut out a relationship with a toxic and dangerous person
hollyhock doesn't owe anything
no one owes no one to stay in a relantionship they don't want, especially with a toxic person, especially someone as toxic as bojack
your victim shaming is so bad dude
@@soliturraldevera1944 I'll ask you one question: if you happen to be a toxic person, and someone cut ties with you when you need them the most, will you take the it and blame yourself entirely?
Also, Sarah, Princess, the girls he ghosted are victims, not Hollyhock. By saying she's sellfish, I'm not saying she's bad and mean, I'm just saying she putted herself first, and that's selfishness (something every human being does, us included, as I said)
@@XMarx-it1yj they are in their right, it sucks for me? probably, but people don't owe fucking anything and my actions have consecuences
yeah sarah, diane and PC, one of them is death and the other teo wasted their best years in him
also hollyhock is a victim she got fucking drogged
also now that I'm thinking about it you say Hollyhock left at the first oportunity instead of staying as the other people but that's not true, Hollyhock got drogged and traumatized and then saw bojack becoming and addict and she got hurt for it and she stayed, she hit the limit, just like todd, PC, Diane and everyone else
your commentary in her being selfish is unfair because she doesn't owe bojack anything and thinking in your health isn't selfish, is what you should do
@@XMarx-it1yj It is a little selfish, but the most healthy selfish thing you can do. Sorta like feeding yourself before you feed a homeless person...
I'm really glad you pointed out that it's selfish, because feeling selfish, cruel, mean, cowardly and etc are all reasons why a lot of people continuously *fail* to cut toxic and abusive people out of their lives. "I'm sure they can change... but if I abandon them, they might get worse!"
Seeing that Hollyhock had the sense and courage to do this to Bojack is uplifting, because I know she won't become a Sarah Lynn in the future.
Hollyhock is the most emotionally healthy character on the show. Her choosing to let go of a person who has consistently shown toxic behaviors, whether viewed "objectively" (not possible) or subjectively, is the response of a person who is used to healthy relationships.
Hollyhock is the lifeguard in Ana Spanakopita's story. Bojack had the potential to drown Hollyhock as well and she chose to not save him. That is a HEALTHY response.
Maybe it is harder to see what that looks like when EVERYONE in the show was an enabler.
She drugged Todd 🙄
@@Ajspecial1000 what?
@@CA-pr2gp if you can’t understand English shut up
@@Ajspecial1000 what ?
@@Ajspecial1000 your not making any sense
It’s just interesting how you presented Hollyhock’s perspective without mentioning how she had a drug overdose at his place, even if he wasn’t technically responsible. Imagine hearing that someone close to you basically killed someone who was in a situation that you were once with them in
it was his place but he didnt want the mom there, it was hollyhocks decision to bring her in. I dont see how its bojacks fault that she got poisoned. it would be good if you mention how is bojack responsible
@@FunnyMannager She literally said that he wasn't responsible.
@@FunnyMannager
I would say that him basically ignoring/being ignorant of the obvious signs of her being drugged with SOMETHING makes him somewhat culpable as an adult who was taking care of a minor for a prolonged period of time.
@@nyabis8044 So, you as a viewer instantly picked up that she must have been drugged when she portrayed eccentric behavior? You weren't at all surprised when it was revealed her coffee had been laced with amphetamines?
@@FunnyMannager But he was responsible when he brought her back, saw that she had a panic attack over drugs and then went on a wild chase around town to find drugs he DIDN'T need. This should've been his turning point to stop taking them, to admit he had a problem when he saw it was affecting his sister but instead turned his promise to her into a loophole and then went on to break it (along with being emotionally distant about it).
Hollyhock is not a jury or justice system- she’s a person. She doesn’t owes him a “fair trial”, she doesn’t owe him “cutting him off in person”, it’s her life, and if she doesn’t want him in her life, that’s her right. Whatever her reasoning is, it’s hers to call.
factual
No she doesn't owe it to him but any decent person who truly cared about someone would do it face to face and that trancends age its a matter of respect and its awful to leave someone without closure and the fact bojack tried so hard to hangout with her before this happened and how much time and effort he put into the relationship it is cowardly and insensitive she didn't owe it to him but it would have been a decent sighn he can be better even without her
@@joelbetancourt4804 yea she's shitty for doing that
@@joelbetancourt4804 Except, if she had tried to do it in person he would have probably made her feel responsible of his pain, making It really difficult to actually leave even if it's the right choice for her.
He would convince her to stay even when she wouldn't want to, and that never ends well
What annoys me about this is that the same is never applied to Bojack. Bojack is not responsible for other people, yet it keeps being presented as him having some magic "power" of responsibility just because he's famous.
The fact that Sarah Lynn, who wasn't that much older then her DIED hanging out with Bojack also because of drug use and that he waited on calling for medical help probably really frightened her as she'd experienced an overdoes at his place too.
This!! Also anyone else find it interesting how Hollyhock wanted to go out to a party to get "peer pressure into drinking by people.
Maybe she was afraid of Bojack enabling her and being a gateway for badness. Just like how Bojack was the gateway for Sara Lynn's ways.
well Sarah Lynn was a bit older than her (Sarah Lynn died at 31, and around that time Hollyhock was about 17), But I get what you mean
@Mexican Joker either way, Bojack was the one who first exposed her to alcohol. 🤷🏻♀️
This was exactly my point
@@AikoSilver In the same vein, Beatrice Horseman was the one who first ruined Bojack. If Sarah Lynn is blameless and without responsibility, Bojack should be, too
She still has some pretty bad history with him. His mom drugged her, they ran from the cops, broke into a house, ect. I think those roots along with external stories that are similar if not worse drove her away completely.
Didn't Hollyhock debut when she chloroformed Todd though? Or am I remembering wrong?
He also had sex in front of her when they first met
It's worth noting that Bojack would have rather her rot in a dumpster than try to take care of her. Hollyhock blew into his life, made half of a year about her, and essentially emotionally manipulated him into making amends with his mother who she INSISTS is not as bad as he thinks;
Then immediately gets drugged by her and goes to the hospital.
I really think it is the pattern Bojack showed. She was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt with the Maddie story. Afterall, when she got drugged, he had helped her, right? He showed concern like a good brother does. But suddenly the truth comes out about Sarah Lynn, and she learns he waited 17 minutes to call the ambulance that may or may not have been able to save her because he wanted his story to be believable. Suddenly there is a pattern of Bojack prioritizing his reputation over helping someone in a health crisis. Sarah Lynn has no one who cared enough to ask questions, Pete and Maddie were too young to know what to do and were trusting the only adult they had. Hollyhock probably couldn’t help but wonder, if she had been worse off and Bojack knew, what would he have done?
Exactly. Cut out that episode in season 5 and she probably would have stayed.
i think the problem with this take is that you're seeing her decision as a punishment. her choice to cute him off is not for him or to spite him, it's for her mental (and physical) health.
Don't seem a "Mental Health" decision to me, but a moral one. She was clearly disgusted for his actions, and didn't wanted to maintain a relation with him,
The letter:
_I've heard some terrible things about you and I don't think they are false_
_This is so fucked up, I'm leaving_
Thank you!
That’s BS. Based on what? “I heard a story about you from some stranger. Don’t bother telling me your side. I’m so distressed.” 🙄
@@stevenrogers2684 she had seen by herself when he was toxic and irresponsible, it was not hard to believe that
And there's a high chance they teens kept hanging out and being friends and hearing more and more about his actions, that actually happened
Of course he got better when he was looking out for her but she is not entitled to make her fifty years old brother get better, that's on him
I disagree with your analysis. You don't have to be "physically" in danger to remove yourself from a relationship. You can also remove yourself to prevent emotional or spiritual harm. Those are real dangers too, and we have a right to protect ourselves from them. Hollyhock wasn't being cowardly by writing a letter. It was two pages long, she probably labored over it, and she probably brought up the real reasons that she was uncomfortable with him. Even if some of the reasons were based on slightly flawed second-hand knowledge, some of the reasons were based on her own experience, and she correctly deduced that he was toxic to people in the past. She is a young college student and doesn't owe a "better" explanation to a grown man known to be a danger to young women. Bojack's actions have consequences, losing his sister is one of them, and Hollyhock doesn't owe him anything. She is allowed to protect herself.
Agreed. So many characters in this series were doomed because they chose to stay with toxic people, and the only thing it did was destroying them. Toxic people doesn’t get fixed from others loyalty. All it does is destroy the people who choose to stay. Toxic people need to fix themselves.
I agree, so many people forget that Hollyhock is a kid.
She also saw how he treated Beatrice, no wonder she didn’t want to meet him in person to say that
This video is just tell me you've been cut from peoples' lives without working it out in therapy without telling me you've been cut from peoples' lives without working it out in therapy
@@rawr1131 she's 21, that's not a kid, she's an adult woman.
And btw, being young doesn't give you the right to do bad things, it just a little more excusable.
I personally disagree with this video. Cutting someone out of your life is incredibly difficult, especially if it's someone you believe is potentially dangerous. Hollyhock is young, and continuing to associate with someone that she has such baggage attached to is something that she has absolutely no obligation to do. Bojack is an adult, and Hollyhock has no obligation to bend over backwards to keep him feeling comfortable.
I don't agree with most of the video either, but I think you misunderstood it.
@@adamdavis1648 I may have! But I think the implication of even suggesting that cutting Bojack out of her life was the 'wrong' thing to do implies that she was in a way responsible for Bojack's happiness. I may have misunderstood, but that was just my reading given my real life experiences. In my opinion, if Hollyhock was uncomfortable around Bojack, she had no obligation to keep in contact with him.
@@nia2602 He doesn't say that she was wrong to cut him out of her life, though. He actually concedes near the end that he can't judge that. What he says is that she should have heard his version of the story before deciding whether to cut him out of her life or not. I still don't think that makes sense because I'm not sure how she could determine whether Bojack's or Pete's version of the story is more accurate, but it's still not the same as suggesting that she was obligated to stay in his life.
I would agree with you if he had done anything to hurt holly in any way. She didnt get hurt. Period.
@@whitecreamymilk8436 I mean, in all honesty, he did make her break into a house and run away from the cops. Plus, his mother had been drugging her so I do think she did get hurt to some extent.
She did the best thing she could to keep herself safe. Full stop. I love her character because she is a realistic teen with a great head on her shoulders.
I agree, Bojack has straight up, out loud, said that he thinks that he is gonna do something and it will ruin Hollyhock MULTIPLE TIMES. And yet, he still hangs out with Hollyhock. She needed to get rid of him. I realized that she is practically Bojack's only friend who wasn't using him for something, so she was the only one brave enough to cut him off
Also something a lot of people keep forgetting: Bojack is basically a stranger to Hollyhock. Yeah, they are family, but he has never told her anything about his past life, his mother, father ect. ect.
Though I agree she did the right thing.....
Do a lot of normal teenagers break into someone house and try to chloroform people? Did I miss that part when I was 18?
@@TheKingOfSpooks exactly people don’t ever listen to two sides of a story
I like more the american fandom of Bojack, in the latinoamerican always say shit of Hollyhock
as someone who's been in a toxic relationship it makes me so giddy and happy that I can now see through the bullshit of such a take. Hollyhock doesn't owe BoJack, a grown man, anything, nor is she punishing him by going no contract, she is simply protecting herself from him emotionally and mentally. had i been more like Hollyhock, ready to protect myself from the drama and garbage that is some individuals I'd be floating right now.
I mean she ran away. Not once did she ask about anything that happened in New Mexico or LA. Not saying she made a wrong decision but she chose not to learn more about the situation and made an uninformed decision. She was only brave enough to run away. If her life was in danger that would be different
@@deandremarshall5130 hollyhock had no obligation to “learn more” she decided not to be in bojacks life anymore and let him know. she owed bojack NOTHING. even leaving a letter was kind, most ppl wouldve turned and ran
Yes, she does owe him, we all deserve closure
@@comparsa1no she doesn't, she's 17, he's a full grown man (...horse)
@@comparsa1nobody is ever entitled to anything. Especially the feeling of closure or forgiveness. Bojack learned this lesson already
I'm glad you'd stay with a world-famous family member with predatory behavior and a history of substance abuse, but for the rest of us, we don't want that kind of negativity and bullshit in our lives.
Omd I totally agree
Someone like bojack with that much money I would stay with for the money alone
Get them drunk enough to give you everything in a will wait like a year or so at least so the will thing doesnt seem very shady them help them overdose
If they overdose on their own before that well god really thought you deserved the wealth
Ayo I agree with the points made but it's still not fair to call Bojack a predator
@@justsomeregret7993 but he is
@@joon9205 No he's not? Everything done was legal it's an arguement of morals, but legally he did not exhibit predatory bdhavior
Even though it sucks that Hollyhock cut Bojack out of her life, maybe it was for the best, i mean Hollyhock did find out enough about his past to know of his self destructive nature, so she cut him off before something really bad happened between him and her, but who knows maybe someday Bojack and Hollyhock will reconnect.
The Commenter Dragon I agree
@Captain Capitalistic Coconut True. But I feel that shouldn't be held against him.
gaaraxnaru Sure, the act itself shouldn’t be held against him, but it still happened under Bojack’s roof and under his watch. Hollyhock was still a teenager then, so Bojack had the responsibility to watch over her and protect her. I’m sure Hollyhock didn’t hold that against him, but it IS still enough of a blight in their history for Hollyhock to realize that Bojack is unreliable, at best.
@@gothicMCRgirl That is a good point. Though I do feel that it's still held too much over him.
But was it fair to do so without confronting Bojack and communicating what the problem was before abandoning him?
'You shouldn't cut out a loved one if they're family' is very reminiscent of what familial abusers and people who just don't get it often say to victims. "But it's faaaaaamily" isn't a valid reason. Hollyhock didn't ghost Bojack, she gave him some form of explanation. If it was teally just the Pete Repeat story, she would have cut contact with him right away. Hollyhock doesn't have to have a relationship with him, even though he's changed. She doesn't owe him anything.
I agree. This video sends all the wrong messages.
Arwen Yoon more like you didn’t get it but whatever.
Neal Miles that was a really thoughtful and eloquent response. Thank you for your input in this conversation. Now go cry about strangers on the internet not agreeing with you.
If a family member of mine is toxic, or is hurting others I'm going to cut them off and never speak of them. Just because they're family doesn't mean you need to keep them in their life. Nobody owes anyone anything. Their relationship was toxic, he dragged her along to all sorts of things and caused problems for her.
Daisia Padilla I agree I barely speak to one of my family members Bc of his toxicness it doesn’t matter if we’re related I don’t want negativity and toxicness in my life🤷🏽♀️
bojack may be related to hollyhock by blood, but he’s barely ‘family’. hollyhock’s real family is the 8 great dads who raised her for 17 years. bojack is a man she lived with for a year with a dangerous history, who dragged her around california to get drugs he didn’t _really_ need, and then proceeded to stalk her at school. anyone in her shoes would’ve made her choice for their own safety.
8 dads
ummm he never harassed her, there are many horrible things he did but he didn't do anything to hollyjock
@@comparsa1whoops i screwed up on the number of dads thing but regardless, i’d call it harassment. bojack had good intentions but he followed her everywhere. he tried going to her parties, he went to all her sports games, he got pissed at her when she didn’t go to his show. all of it got very cringeworthy. like, she’s a college kid trying to live her life and bojack was a professor in his 50’s… even though he was just trying to connect with his sister he was basically stalking her. plus, at that point even though bojack was sober hollyhock now knew of his dangerous past. pete told her about the shady experience he had in high school with him and she was clearly trying to distance himself from him but bojack couldn’t take the hint. it was uncomfortable to watch. id call it harassment. also, not long after that bojack went on biscuit’s show and revealed his part in sarah lynn’s passing. hollyhock was right to try to get away from him.
He didn’t harass her tho. Communication is key. If she just told him why she didn’t want him around I’m pretty sure he would distance himself too he clearly didn’t understand why this is why he just kept showing up every time she “tried to distance herself”
@@lightspotatochip7530 it’s easier said than done. confrontation isn’t easy, especially when she knew bojack was a dangerous person. but she gave subtle hints she knew he was a creep: “i don’t think you should come to the party with me, there are gonna be a lot of young women there.” then bojack, a *professor* straight up knocked on her dorm door and yelled about how he was pissed she didn’t go to his shitty play and she was forced to open up about how weird he’s been being. then the biscuits show came on and that was it. she was done with him. id call it harassment, even if she didn’t say anything she was visibly uncomfortable with bojack following her everywhere but he kept pushing and pushing until she had no choice but to open up. that’s harassment.
As a 20 something with older siblings in there late 40s, those relationships are sooo fragile because of the distance and age gap. That distance prevents the rose colored glass, that usually form when you have a childhood bond with someone, to affect how you see the toxic sibling. Hollyhock is the most relatable animated character I've ever known. She completes the series for me.
I agree though I'm 23 I had to cut out my own father from my life as he was a Toxic person and I even as a child at the age of 7 freaking 7! I had more common sense than my own mother.... I'm just glad he's gone.
@@yanderedeku2902 May I ask what your father did to be considered a toxic person? Asking for refference.
There’s also the fact hollyhock met bojack when she was 17
Ever consider Hollyhock sent a letter s Bojack wouldn’t try to gaslight her into accepting him into her life again? The letter wasn’t cowardly or courageous; it was simply the decision she felt she needed to make.
I think it hit home to him that this was "please respect my wishes " letter.
And his refusal to read that letter while demanding that she talk to him probably made things much clearer than any of the rationales Bojack could have given her.
What is this term gaslighting I keep hearing, is it about setting off a bomb like lighting gas? Doesn't seem like it
@red cherry thanks
@@bojarckhoosemanschnarf5851 It's from old-ass film called Gaslight. Wiki it.
I think you are forgetting that Hollyhocks own experience with drugs and Bojack.
She was drugged in Bojacks House and is still traumatised by it.
She heard that Bojack waited 17minutes before calling the ambulance for Sarah Lynn.
And now hearing another young girl had drug trouble around him is certainly a good reason to at least distance herself.
But maybe she could have said she wanted only contact by letter or something instead of forbidding him from ever contacting her again.
But Hollyhock didn't hear about BoJack waiting 17 minutes for Sarah Lynn before the last conversation they have.
If the letter had said to only write her, I doubt that bojack's reaction wouldn't be as negative as it was when he read the letter
@@genarotrevisiolmontiel8919 It was on TV though. Hollyhock would have seen it.
@@InvaderGIR98 Yes, that's true. But at the time, she didn't. And that's a huge thing to have in mind.
@@roadkill5727 What if the letter said "if you keep calling me I'm done."? Then by not reading the letter and continuing to call he was digging himself deeper. Very good reason for that reaction.
Imagine being Hollyhock and learning from Peter that your brother gave another teenager alcohol poisoning when he was in his 50s. Then imagine learning a few months later that your brother gave someone heroin that killed them and waited 17 minutes to call an ambulance. Then take into account that Hollyhock was drugged to the point of hospitalization while living with Bojack. Hollyhock cutting off her relationship with Bojack was the best thing she could've did, and not something that should be given a second thought. If I was in Hollyhocks shoes, I would be terrified of Bojack.
I think a lot of people forget that. I wonder if a part of her thinks about the possibility of something like her overdose happening again and Bojack refusing to take responsibility/potentially endangering her life.
While her overdose wasn’t necessarily his fault, he was also ignorant to the fact it was happening and causing her to behave radically different. He pointed it out to Diane when they went to check her birth certificate but brushed it off as “you know how teens are.” That by itself was troubling and if he knew she was overdosing, there could be a possibility that he could have waited to call for an ambulance. That possibility is terrifying for someone who nearly died to grapple with, especially after learning about the troubling pattern.
Even though Hollyhock's overdose wasn't his fault, knowing that he didn't call the ambulance while someone was overdosing must have been *terrifying* considering her history of overdosing at Bojack's house (hell, he probably called the ambulance for her). It probably brings up awful memories. In my opinion, she's justified in cutting him off for that alone.
It was Beatriz who poisoned Hollyhock and she doesn't excuse her not confronting him.
@@ellag3265it was his fault
From blaming kids for not objecting to Bojack's choices, to calling HH a coward for protecting her peace (while still being considerate enough to provide Bojack some closure) by sending a letter, to implying gender studies makes one a 'social justice warrior'... this video aint it. Bojack is not entitled to everyone bending over backwards to see him in the best light.
"protecting her peace"
You can dress it up any way you want, its still cowardice.
yea shady was mad wrong on thid
@@np8252 Hollyhock knows Bojack's a mess. She bent over backwards for him thinking she could help, but hearing how he hurts other people finally gave her the push she probably felt was coming for a while. She believed he'd ultimately hurt her, and for justifiable reasons. She's not a coward, she finally found her common sense to avoid someone toxic in her life.
@@CreditR01 There's literally nothing in the show to suggest her leaving Bojack was coming, or that she needed a push, before she found out about New Mexico. Likewise, Bojack wasn't actually toxic to Hollyhock's life, that's what makes her a coward. All of his awful behaviour was to other people. She's not Gina or Penny, there was no reason not to talk to him in person. It was purely a cowardly act.
@@CreditR01 Hell, Bojack did way more to hurt PC and she at least told him in person that she wouldn't be his representative.
“yeah, but i still love her” “are we in a fight?” “yeah, but...yeah”
that line broke me
nothing special that line broke my straight face out of pity because it reeks of displaced anger.
When wa stoat line made, I really don’t remember
I literally pretended not to understand what that line meant because I knew shit was over at that moment
I actually ended up hating her for that. She didn't try to understand what happened, she just accepted a strangers story as fact.
Loot Cat He has shown clear signs that he would do something like that, she probably did some research in her own time, he did do it and she cut him out of her life because he was dangerous.
I felt from Hollyhocks perspective, Bojack was too toxic for her current life and he would do nothing but drag her down. She was blind to this at first because she is so loving and caring and Bojack is an extension of her true biological family. After having the conversation at the party with Pete Repeat and what happened with Penny she cuts him off and that’s the right thing to do. Even though it’s probably very hard considering the connection and genuine love between them. It’s detrimental to Bojack to keep this relationship, but to Hollyhock it’s the smartest thing she could’ve done to cut him off.
Still doesn't negate the point that she was a coward by not directly addressing him and ask him about it instead of just running away.
Levi Matthews I agree with the coward way she cut him off. Nevertheless I believe it was the right choice by her, she definitely could’ve given him a face to face conversation like Diane but I think this is another example of Hollyhocks maturity level in comparison to the other characters in the show. She’s at a much younger age and is still going to make mistakes. Maybe cutting off Bojack is one of them, and in the future she’ll rekindle what she thought she’d be better without.
Casey Nicholas It also takes into account that Hollyhock is a part of the demograpic that she believe Bojack has a tendency to harm - young women.
Even viewing it from her perspective I don't feel like he was toxic at his present state in life which is a man trying to better himself while being there for his sister. Like all of the news she received was from past events which he said were a past self he doesn't want to be anymore.
but we didn't get to see her perspective, all people are talking are just headcanons
I think you miss the fact we the show is letting us see Bojack's view, and when that boy tells Hollyhock the story it's from his point of view. The truth is hard to find when people see things differently. But one thing that is true, everyone in that story knows what Bojack did was wrong.
I'm not surprised that you called her "cowardly" for making such a difficult decision after hearing you refer to gender studies courses as conditioning a "typical social justice warrior mentality" that could make her hate Bojack more.. you write her decision off as one "fueled by negativity", as if Bojack himself was objectively not a negative and toxic influence to everybody around him.
That's Shady for you. He's always been kinda questionable regarding his views towards women.
Ya because gender studies is dumb waste of money and trying to get laid type of class. And y’all are dumb fucks who really do this and cherry on top you turn your back on family your far worst than the one who did you wrong.
@@emilioprado5513 Nah mate.
If your family is a gaslighting, teenager fornicating, woman choking, manipulative drug addict with narcissistic personality issued and severe depression, then you're well within your rights to cut them out of your life when they don't deserve to be there.
The people who aren't able to cut toxic people out of their lives are the weak ones, and shows that blind loyalty comes above their intelligence, mental well-being, and physical health.
If they aren't able to cut people out who are hurting them, who don't want to get better, they aren't strong at all.
He’s wrong about Hollyhock’s decision. She made a healthy choice. He’s right about his views on gender studies. It is actually garbage.
@@tristanearhart6040 how was Hollyhock’s decision right? She abandoned a family member who was actively trying to change for the better. Bojack was not abusive to Hollyhock enough to warrant abandoning a person trying to change for the better.
There are a lot of points here that are one sided. Lets look at things from Hollyhocks perspective: she meets the man she thinks is her dad and when he tries to help her find her mom she sees the number of women he was with over just a couple months and he even sleeps with the presedent of his fanclub in front of her. She gets drugged by Beatrice while she stays with him, and Bojack avoids spending time with her enough that he doesnt notice her massive weight loss or change in behaviour. (She also witnesses Bojack be cruel to a confused old lady - the only reason we as the audience rationalize it is because we've seen how she was in the past and mind less that she gets punished for that now - see what the writers did there?). They get past all that but when she comes to visit him he takes her on a drug finding mission - drugs he clearly doesnt need anymore as hes able to climb a fence etc, and at the end of that night he cant say I love you back. Then she hears the story from pete repeat. Yes he puts all the blame on bojack, but even this version is better than the version we the audience know, because its unlikely that pete is aware that later that night bojack almost slept with penny. Hollyhock also knows that bojack constantly makes excuses for his behavior, so it would make sense that she would want to work things out on her own before giving him a chance to downplay the events she heard about, and looking at what she knows about him, this behavior is consistent with what shes seen. Then he shows up at her school without talking to her. Even if she wasnt feeling weird about him at this point, well would you want your dad showing up at all your college games? I know hes not her dad but hes that age and shes a teenager. The video also makes the gender studies class and reading material seem like negative and biased influencers - which is unfair. Most womens studies classes look at statistics, politics, the history of movements and beleif systems, power dynamics etc. Its information, and the video frames her attempting to inform herself and put everything she has seen into context as a negative bias. Then there is the interview, and while this interview tries to create a certain narritive - emphasising bojacks behavior to women when the real issue is his selfish and destructive behavior to everyone - nothing that gets out in that interview is actually wrong; every fact that she states, every incident she describes is something we the audience have seen for ourselves. Bojack has done much worse things than what pete tells hollyhock, and getting better and then falling farther has been a pattern for Bojack and the show. We the audience thought he hit rock bottom when he tried to sleep with penny, then sarah lynn died, and after that he choked gina, so bojack doing better now is no guarantee that he wont do worse later and hollyhock wont eventually be on the receiving end. We the audience wanted hollyhock to stick it out for bojacks sake because she was a good influence on him and this is literally his story, but he was NOT a good influence on her and while it would have been satisfying to have that face to face, she didnt owe him that. Plus realisticly her dads would have likely forbade all contact with him after that interview regardless.
This comment is exactly what I was thinking!
Yes, this.
Yeah while watching the video it was a bit one sided. I mean i get it i watched Bojack and felt similar but i knew it was because he's the main character and i would be more likely to side with him.
Omg thank you!!!!!!! This vid really irritates me bc it's looked at from the male gaze and not how a young woman really would feel
this totally voices everything I was thinking, especially the part about the women't studies class. not only do colleges have you pick your classes months in advance of the start of the semester (so hollyhock would've been enrolled in the class already and she didn't just take it because she was feeling conflicted about bojack while he was at her school) but it disregards the field of gender studies as "just some sjw bs" (which btw, since when is advocating for social justice a bad thing? social justice literally means striving for justice in society. what's wrong with that?)
She made the most mature decision bc she out of everyone else in BJs life she had be given the right type of love and support in order to be able to know thar BJ was not healthy and would not a positive influence in her life so she was not willing to enable his behavior in to be in his life.
Abigail Slaughter She already knew about how he had sex with Sarah Lynn (a persona who he knew sense she was 5?) and then when she overdosed he waited 17 minutes to call the police just to save his own ass then she learned about him abandoning a minor with alcohol poisoning at a hospital with another minor to save his ass again. Who’s to say he wouldn’t do the same thing to her if he thought she was too far gone when she had overdosed. And would hearing the full story really make anything better? That would just show that he was going to sleep with another girl her age after abandoning another young girl m. That would just make his story 1000X worse. She made the right decision.
@@dopdrop8998 I thought she didn't know about the 17 minute wait after Sarah Lynn overdosed until after she left him.
As Diane said: "You're hurting me and I would like you to let go now."
Cutting toxic people out of your life is one of the healthiest things you can do.
and as Diane you must face them :) don't run away like a fucking coward
If there’s one thing Hollyhock isn’t, it’s cowardly.
The letter and number disconnection is an emphasis on her fear of confrontation and cowardice, sadly
@@Darshe0 It's not cowardice. She doesn't owe Bojack an explanation.
@@EclecticallyEccentric
She sent him a letter tho? She explained she doesn’t want anything to do with him anymore after the shit she learned, she gave an explanation anyway despite not owing him. I don’t see how that’s relevant to her avoiding confrontation
@@Darshe0 so i’m seeing a lot of ppl deny the fact that she was scared but honestly even if she was scared (which i think bojack did scare her) she was rightfully so because bojack is literally awful and there is no excuse anyone can make for him so her protecting herself was the right thing to do
@@Darshe0 she doesn’t need to confront him? she’s still a teen and bojack is in his 50’s its crazy to think a teen owes a grown adult explanation or needs to confront anyone
Bojack could've given her space
Bojack could've seen a therapist
Bojack could've hung out in the teachers lounge rather than try to hang with young college girls
Bojack is more accountable than Hollyhock
She didn't tell Bojack she needed space. Before now, she didn't want space. Once she told him she needed space, he was perfectly willing to give it to her.
Bojack saw Doctor Champ for 6 months who in the end, gave him therapy. What more could an actual therapist do to help him?
Bojack did other things, we see him helping his students and going to AA meetings. The only time he tried to hang out with Hollyhock was at rugby because it was something she liked and he wanted to support her. He didn't want to hang out with young girls, he wanted to hang out with Hollyhock in one specific activity. He was willing to do it in another activity, hence the "we can find a new thing" line.
Nobody said Hollyhock was more accountable than Bojack.
She was just written off the show tbh.
I completely agree, i mean, Is going to sound bad, but even if there is no bad intentions it can be bad seen that a grown man spends time with really young people, especially in a bar. As a personal story, my dad is teacher in a high school, and he is a good man, but he usually avoids his students messages if those have nothing to do with school, he have not bad intentions, but even the minor mistake can fuck your life
@@w00r_m52 The thing is that it's not a grown man hanging out with young girls, it's a man wanting to spend time with his sister
@@diegomujica4910 i agree but maybe he could have invited only hollyhock to go somewhere or idk
WOW. It was the part where you called Hollyhock 'cowardly' that I had to PAUSE the video. I wish I had HALF the bravery (and strength!) when I was her age to cut off toxic older men (family members included). She did her best to build a relationship with him but was smart enough to recognize his toxic traits and how including him in her life was dangerous to her and her future. I mean you could literally see Bojack's presence taking a toll on her mental health. I also think the majority of information she learned about him was truthful and genuinely scared her- therefore writing a letter (and changing her number) wasn't cowardly but the SAFEST and 'fairest' way to cut off a seasoned manipulator. The video insinuated Bojack made redeemable 'changes'- making him somewhat worthy of being Hollyhock's life -BUT we've seen this pattern multiple times throughout the series and his narcissist and self-destructive ways always return (or are just well hidden). In fact most of those toxic traits he was trying to suppress poured out right after she cut him off. In other words, she dodged a bullet and I stan this young Queen. On another note, the claim he 'went out of his way' to support her interests/hobbies kinda rubbed me the wrong way... when you break down his actions it in many ways looks like he was using her as a crutch and/or distraction during this period of sobriety/need to escape LA (similar to how he used Charlotte and her family). That's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on a young girl who should be enjoying her freshman year in a new environment and focusing on her own self-discovery. Instead, Bojack invading her school environment on a whim (which was inappropriate) for his own selfish needs, forced her to spend way too much time worrying about her adult brother and his problematic tendencies.
Hey genius. After rehab, was being toxic, to her?
@@godzillaprime what?
The entire video is such an egregiously male take, imo. I spent too long looking for a comment like this, thank you for saying this. The immense turmoil of cutting someone off is so taxing, especially is they're trying to change but can't stop being toxic. And the way that gender studies is instantly dismissed as "sjw" rhetoric that further pushed Hollyhock away from Bojack was so misguided, when it was most probably a tool that helped her in realizing that she didn't owe this grown man anything.
Yeah, the part where "he was supporting her interests and making an effort" - yeah okay, thats really sweet but it doesnt mean she OWES him, its not a transaction. It also doesnt erase the morally questionable things that hes done.
@@asiawojcicka9909 YES THATS WHAT I WAS THINKING. And just because he's a good brother doesn't mean he can't be an abuser. There are probably thousands of stories of abusive people who've had completely different personas when theyre with people they love
i knew this was gonna be a bad take when he said “feminism and other social justice warrior rhetoric”
It's a red flag. Or at least a deep yellow one
@@BonnerDoemling id go deep red. caused me to unsubscribe just now. Absolute scumbag take from him.
Me too lol. I was like, What???💀
oh HELL NO u did NOT just call hollyhock cowardly,, cutting off a toxic person is unbelievably difficult even if its by way of letter or text
Ya she is a coward you don’t have the guts to go and confront someone a problem and wanna Know what happen, then listen to some stranger then your just as bad as him
@@emilioprado5513 hollyhock never almost raped a child, gave alcohol to high schoolers and then ran away when things got bad, avoided calling medical professionals who could have saved a girl’s life, choked out her girlfriend and nearly killed her… do i need to go on? this is such a stupid take lmao
@@Riley-ek8xs While I do agree with your intention and why you say it, Don be skewing things to be worse than they are mate Bojack is horrible but he ain't what you making him out to be
@@justsomeregret7993 But he literally did all of those things?
@@justsomeregret7993 lol, no worries
It's important to keep in mind that Hollyhock is 17, while Diane is 40. Teenagers and young adults have less life experience and less training in how to deal with difficult situations and tricky boundaries, so they're more likely to resort to "all-or-nothing" reactions that would strike a more mature and seasoned adult as cowardly, naive, harmful/hurtful, self-sabotaging, or short-sighted. Also, teenagers and young adults generally have less social power than most full-grown adults, so they have to draw boundaries differently, and sometimes, more firmly, in order to protect themselves.
@onion boi she’s around 19-20 at the end of the series. When we meet her with bojack, she’s only 17. She’s still a teenager.
Yeah, that’s true. Although the point still stands. She’s kind of a kid still.
I usually really like your video analyses, but this ain't it bro.
1) You're acting as though everything that happened between Hollyhock and Bojack before season 6 doesn't apply here. She was drugged while living in his house and spiraled out of control, and she watched him struggle with pills and get into some crazy shit when she came to visit him. Just because she forgave him and moved on from it doesn't mean she didn't pay attention to those events. It's true he wasn't specifically at fault for ALL of those things (Beatrice drugging her), but it's important to note what happens in his house is his responsibility, regardless. Also, she watched him treat his mother like absolute shit, and you can argue that Beatrice deserved his vitriol, but from Hollyhock's perspective she was watching a man berate and emotionally abuse his helpless, senile mother. That's not okay, by any stretch.
2) You point to Pete's "responsibility" to the drinking situation as though Bojack -wasn't the literal adult- in that situation. Regardless of his reasoning for giving them bourbon cut with water, he supplied high schoolers with alcohol and encouraged their drinking, which is full-stop illegal regardless if they chose to drink or not by themselves. Not only that, he dropped them off at the hospital and left Pete in charge of managing his incredibly sick girlfriend instead of stepping up and handling the situation *like an adult is supposed to*. He coerced a kid into lying just to save his own neck. Bojack is absolutely in the wrong for that situation, and implying Pete told the story wrong does not change that fact.
3) Bojack has a problem with boundaries, which is why him badgering Hollyhock almost non-stop also might have added to her disconnecting with him. We saw some of this in season 5 when he calls her at 2-3 am (I forget the exact time but it's stupid late) and wakes her up due to his anxieties, and she calmly talks to him and assures him she will talk to him that Sunday. Maybe this seems like a heartwarming moment between brother and sister, but again, Bojack is a grown man and this level of emotional dependency and disregard for her wellbeing and boundaries (he didn't think "it's late, maybe I should let her sleep") can get exhausting, especially when he moves to her campus and literally DEMANDS her attention, inserting himself in her life to a degree that she was uncomfortable with. Bojack and Hollyhock are still strangers to a degree, so a grown man suddenly demanding enormous amounts of emotional support while you're a young adult in COLLEGE can be alarming and overwhelming.
4) Hollyhock herself overdosed on amphetamines on Bojack's watch. Then she learns someone else got alcohol poisoning in his company. THEN she learns the famous actor, Sarah Lynn, not only overdosed in his care but DIED, and he waited 17 minutes before calling the authorities just so that he could cover his own ass. This is absolutely a pattern, whether or not you choose to try and fault Bojack specifically for these specific incidences. Not only that, but his history of being with girls with less power is absolutely alarming to learn, especially when Bojack himself constantly called her, demanding her presence, demanding her company, demanding her emotional labor. Expecting HER to act "logically and rationally" in this situation, while Bojack absolutely fails to do either of those things time and time again, is just unfair, dude.
5) Hollyhock does not owe Bojack a chance to explain himself. She does not owe him her time and energy. She reached out to him because she thought he was her dad, which was not the case. Being his half-sister doesn't mean she owes him a connection, and considering there is not a single experience between Bojack and Hollyhock that ended positively (please tell me if I'm wrong), I believe she is in the absolute right to enforce her boundaries and remove Bojack from her life.
Completely agree!
Yes! And the thing about the 17 minutes probably re-traumatized her. He did the something similar to maddy, leaving pete to deal with it to avoid responsibility. If he had thought hollyhock was already dead in the bathroom, what would he have done, how long would he have waited, all to make sure he didnt get blamed? Sarah Lynns fate could have been her own, and thats terrifying
I'm really glad you brought up the fact that he's a habitual boundary crosser. As much as I love BJ as a character, this rings true if you really look back on the series. I didn't even notice it at first.
Agree. Well written
👏👏👏👏
Bad take. Hollyhock was closing herself off from manipulation by writing the letter. She was protecting herself and by extension any friends she made.
she was a coward
I think so too. Bojack has a habit of shifting the blame onto others and guilt-tripping them into staying by his side. Hollyhock did what she considered the best solution to cut him off, giving an explanation while also leaving Bojack no room for manipulating her.
this is a god awful take and could be extremely damaging to people in toxic or abusive relationships. everyone has the right to do what will make them feel safe, and it’s ridiculous to expect HH to act as impartially as a justice system. why is a teenage girl being held to a higher standard than a 50+ year old grown man? i’ve loved all your other analyses but this ain’t it, chief.
she is an adult the way you infatilized women when its doesnt go to your own agenda disgust me
@@unviewerrandom4792 she was 17 in her first appearance, its not infantilizing her, its understanding shes barely out of her teenage years when bojack was 50+. hes a toxic person, thats the whole point, and she, as someone who has sufferend indirectly bc of his toxicity, decided to do what was best for her.
he is the only one who said the obvious, people should do like Diane and speak honestly and hollyjock is not a victim of bojack
@@oliverbeluga6609I'm starting to realize that a lot of people like you just didn't pay attention to the show. She was 17 when they met. She was in her early twenties when she left. Did you forget she was in college? You know, a school for people that are not teenagers. And already passed high School where teenagers usually go. Did you even watch the show?
The take was officially bad when you referred to Bojack as being "cancelled". He's done a staggering amount of damage to everyone that crossed his path. Did the news reporter treat him unfairly? Oh well. It's his past finally catching up with him. Hollyhock was smart to make the choice she did with the information she had.
Cancelling exists in both fair and unfair ways
That’s what I’ve always thought. Honestly, I don’t even think the news reported treated him unfairly. It was his past actions finally having consequences. It’s a shame that happened after he’d changed, but honestly... I think he deserved it. He never had to pay for the people he hurt.
@@SF-TDW in this case it’s fair. And Bojack literally doesn’t care either. He knows he’s okay with paying for his actions. He is in jail and he says jail has been good for him. It’s a harsh reform system but it’s what worked for him in the end.
Yhea, lol. At first when the trump supporting comment came out of nowhere I was like "the a it's a bit weird, but I kind I see the analogy he's making." But then when he dismissed gender studies as just "typical social justice warrior mentality" without even attempting to explaining what it is, to immediately after trying to say she got a bad image of Bojack just out of the "eEeeEevviiilllL agenda college was feeding her" instead of, you know, all the reprehensible stuff he has done over and over again, made me realized that whatever cultural analysis this guy had was not worth my time.
@@vicbaez Seriously. And whether Bojack realizes it or not, he DOES have a history of going for women he has power over. The reporter wasn’t wrong. I know we’ve watched Bojack through his ups and downs, and it’s tough to see him wake up and get better only to finally have to face consequences but he 100% deserved it, and anyone who can’t see that missed the point of the last few episodes. Hollyhock may have gotten a slightly biased perspective of the Prom situation, but it wasn’t entirely inaccurate. Bojack still purchased alcohol for minors, didn’t stop one of them from drinking excessively, and tried to cover it up. Hollyhock shunning him for that isn’t “college libs poisoning her” or whatever, it’s completely reasonable. If I found out MY brother did that, I’d probably distance myself from him too.
The only problem I have with this analysis is that HH is very young. She has many family/trauma issues. If she were a "grown-up", I could understand expecting her to act in a more diplomatic manner. Also, this is not a rational process. The people in BoJack's life basically decide that he is too toxic for them. I do not see it as sooo unlikely that HH may come to the same conclusion. And again, the point of the finale is that some things do change. I can totally see a post-show world in which people just go on living - maybe he does run into Todd, PC or Diane again but not on the same level as before. I think too that, if BoJack really does change, maybe writes to HH, there could be another chance for him there. The finale was so great because it is all about potential - BJ has the chance to reset his life if he chooses to. He can no longer grab PC, Todd, Diane, MPB etc., this will mainly have to be on his own.
Even if she were grown up, she wouldn’t owe him anything. But her age is definitely a factor here. She could have handled it better, yes. But at the same time, she was still a kid.
I think it's interesting how you veiw the teenager to be at fault for cutting out a toxic family member who's old enough to be her father for being a toxic influence on her, and cutting him out for several reasons besides learning about what happened in NM and what their mother did. Their last encounter together with Bojack before she learned more about him and at college was horrible, she was caught in the middle of a drug deal and put through trauma again and all he could respond with is yelling at her for feeling panicked about the situation. This along with many signs of toxicity that a brother nor a father figure should do probably pushed her a lot, but she didn't abandon him until after his final interview, where a lot of his past got noted and she sent him the letter. Imagine from her perspective, you've experience this person you care about being toxic but you want them to change and you want to be a good sister. You then hear a horrible story about said family member illegally giving a bunch of teens alcohol and one getting their stomach pumped at the hospital and family member abandons teens. And on the same night this same family member almost has sex with an underage individual (I dont believe it matters that its legal in NM or not, Bojack is old enough to be her dad or grandad, so it's pretty fucked up especially since he just tried to kids the mother of the underaged girl) and only left when the mom found out- and honestly he might have went through with it if the mom hadn't walked in- hes had sex with Sara Lynn after all, and hes stated he sees himself as a father figure to her, which is all the more fucked up. You combine all this and you have a woman who just started college, is being pestered by the one person she needs time away from to think about, and all this shit goes down. Shes emotionally vulnerable, hasn't seen it from Bojacks point of view (and doesn't need to since shes just living her own life and trying to grow), and is probably so conflicted from the whole situation. Hollyhock is allowed to cut out someone like that. No one has to keep someone toxic in their life. And they definitely shouldnt be blamed for trying to keep their distance.
I've commented this on a comment thread but I dont care, I'm posting it again, you're incredibly unsympathetic to a literal child for not blindly accepting a toxic man's apologies right away. I know Bojack has changed at that point, but Holly never truly got to see that, and you just simply acting like shes a villain in this situation is frankly disgusting.
She's not a teenager, she's 21, it's not bad that she walked away from him, it's bad that she never confront him
@@comparsa1 why is that so bad? She's still very young and maybe she needs time before confronting someone who brought her so much trauma. Why do people want to push blame on her so badly? Bojack did terrible things, she's allowed to not want to be around him.
Haven't finished the video yet but: Yes, she did.
Edit at the end of the video: Yes, she did. Bojack is poisonous, she's very young, she's not a coward for making her feelings clear to someone with more experience, age and power over her, and regret doesn't absolve you.
Agreed. Hollyhock is still kind of a kid.
yes, she is cowardly
Hollyhock is doing what Bojack should have done with his mother.
She did the correct thing, there is no need to set yourself on fire to keep someone warm. Drug addicts don't have reason or rhyme, there's not point in trying to reason with them.
Yeah Bojack's mom may have had a shitty life, but he has every right to avoid her.
Hollyhock is the only person of Horseman lineage who I can say won't lead a life of being a bitter toxic mess, she's doing great.
@@SpyderRyder3600 Agreed! I think when people watch the show they're too used to all the enablers with bad childhoods for a maincast. Hollyhock grew up in a loving and supportive home where she was able to grow into a mentally healthy person/horse and as the audience, we aren't used to characters like that.
This is such a good comparison and makes me appreciate the writing even more. There’s so many themes of generational trauma within the show, and Hollyhock having to cut him off is her ending the cycle. It’s very sad, but realistic.
Most characters were complacent with their behavior and had not intentions to change or self awareness to do so. This is why characters who aren't complacent or make changes are viewed upon unfavorably.
What makes this show so heartbreaking is that we actually get to SEE all perspectives and why certain decisions were made. You really can’t fault Hollyhock for her decision but it still hurts. I personally believe that she and BoJack will patch things up EVENTUALLY but it’ll require some deep introspection and BoJack will need to fix his image.
yes I can fault her for her decision because we didn't get to see it
Will never happen.
Lmfaooo did you see that Unicorn show he was about to do? He's got a lot of work 😭
We didn't see the letter. Imagine if Bojack just read it wrong, seeing only what he feared.
If the show went on, I could imagine something like that happening for comedy while Holyhock was wondering why Bojack is now in jail.
even if that whole alcohol situation didn’t happen , leaving bojack would be the right decision for anyone as he just brings them down
"Of course you did this to me, because I cared about you... and you ruin people who care about you."
@@ShadyDooragswell said bro…shows how stupid Dr.Champ is and also defies the dumb logic that Bojack is just a cancer
Leaving Bojack out of concern for your own well-being is justified. Leaving Bojack under the notion he just brings others down by being associated with them is just plain stupid
I’ve never seen anyone miss the point of a story this badly. When Hollyhock cut off BoJack I couldn’t help but let out a sigh of relief. She is such an important character, she is part of why I can feel the slightest bit at peace with myself for cutting off bullies and terrible people. She helped me realise my guilt for changing my number to cut off a manipulator wasn’t selfish. I wasn’t a coward to want the constant paranoia to stop. She wasn’t either. I’m glad she was able to give herself closure.
Do not romanticize the lack of affective responsibility, that is what causes the ghosting, she should have confronted it, there are no halfway points
@@comparsa1no she shouldn't, for fuck's sake, she's the victim here. She was in her right to cut off someone who didn't do her any good. You're sounding like an enabler with these comments.
@@comparsa1no, she should not have.
@@comparsa1Ghosting toxic people isn't wrong. No one deserves an explanation from you on why being with them is bad for you.
@@LeRouxFilmsin a scenario where u don’t know what went wrong that ended a relationship the “abuser” won’t have any way to fix or work on what went wrong in the relationship. We know what Bojack did with the alcohol but Hollyhock doesn’t, not rly. Bojack not realizing what Hollyhock’s problem is made him more possessive in wanting to get closer to her. Sure she didn’t OWE him. But it woulda been better to talk to him.
After the interview tho, it’s more reasonable. I personally don’t agree with bojack as a womanizer or one who preys on young women but he let someone die, and that’s enough to block someone. If Bojack kept calling her for 3 months, maybe Hollyhock could’ve responded differently but she should’ve been more clear about cutting him off yet again.
Both sides have an argument here. This is my take
It's not really fair to put on a teenage girl to forgive and try to understand her estranged addict half-brother who's partially responsible for someone elses death (who he also slept with despite being a daughter figure).
...this is a terrible take
Hollyhock was told to cut out Bojack by all of her dads.
She was drugged, and had a bad experience with it, but Bojack ruined his one day with her searching for opioids.
Yes, Pete's story was skewed, but considering her experiences, it's not unfair for her to believe the worst in him.
As for the interview, yes there is an agenda, but its important to see that Bojack's bad decisions cause irreparable damage to others. And let's not forget the story was mostly true. He slept with Sarah Lynn, enabled his addictions at the end of that Oscar campaign, have her the heroin and didn't call 911 immediately because he wanted to save his own ass.
You insist for a fair trial, but a fair trial would mean she would know about Penny, about how he slept with Todd's girlfriend, how he choked Gina, etc.
And sure, Bojack has changed, but try putting yourself in his victims' shoes. Is him being better gonna fix Gina's paranoia? Would it fix his relationship with Charlotte? A big thing about the final season is that past actions have consequences, and to truly change, one has to bear the consequences of those past actions.
Also how dare you call Hollyhock cowardly. Cutting of relationships when you see the red flags is a very brave thing to do.
Hollyhock is arguably stronger than many in the main cast. They all managed to get out of the sunking ship just as it was about to sink, but Hollyhock realized it was sinking and abandoned it inmediately rather than waiting to see if it would stay afloat.
Dads or no Dads. She decided to give Bojack the boot. They were already Sour on Bojack so they weren't really so much of a factor this far down the line.
Yes, exactly. Also, what Diane did, confronting Bojack about it, is brave, but this does not mean that not confronting them is cowardly.
Thiiiis
also the fair trial doesn't make sense. A fair trial happens because we owe the people the chance to be seen as inocent but hollyhock isn't a jugde or jury and she doesn't owe anything to bojack
She is a person who saw red flags in a person, decided to educated herself to understand how bad was the thing that this person did, then saw the interview and made a brave decision
it sucks because bojack is the best that he's ever been but hollyhock doesn't owe him anything and isn't her responsability
this video is one of the worts bojack horseman takes i've seen
idk...homeboy was an abuser. doesn't matter if he changed or not. what matters was the choice bojack made. he's an anti hero for a reason
i hate....everything about this video. the abuse apologism, the casual bigotry, the complete lack of awareness of how genuinely terrible bojack's actions have been...it's gunna be a yikes from me, dawg.
Same
Agreed. When I first saw the series, I felt a little bad for BoJack. And I still do. But Hollyhock didn’t owe him anything and he truly was a toxic person. I am so proud of Hollyhock for being able to cut him out of her life. And she even wrote him a letter to give him a little closure. She didn’t have to do that. And she was probably scared. The fact she had the grit and emotional strength to cut a toxic individual out of her life at such a young age makes me appreciate her character more than I already did.
It's terrifying to me that some people don't realize how horrible BoJack is. He's not just a guy who made a few little mistakes. Putting even an ounce of responsibility on the kids is unacceptable. I'm floored.
This whole video is him being a Bojack apologist (and I don’t mean that in a rude way, he really is). He fails to mention many of the things he’s done. He’s ignored her, made her go on a drug hunt, he ignored her when she said love you (it’s something small but even small actions can show how a person is), When she told him that she liked someone he told her that he would probably leave (at least that’s what I remember) and many more that I can’t remember well/don’t feel like typing out
Yes, but remember one of the major themes of the show is change. BoJack had changed. He was a professor, he was sober, he was helping people, he was relatively mentally healthy. In other words, the show rejects the idea that who you are is a fixed entity. If the show believed that a bad person is simply bad and always will be, why is there so much emphasis on choice, change, and improvement? If the show believed BoJack was evil and horrible period, what would be the point of Todd's "you need to be better" speech? And call my naive if you like, but if someone does become better, then I do think there ought to be some forgiveness from those around them.
@@jordancrago5129 because in the end if she dose see a change it’s her decision to forgive someone. You don’t HAVE to forgive a person for what they’ve done. For example if someone that I consider a friend were to say a slur they were not supposed to say and years later says sorry I don’t have to forgive them. Do I see that they’ve changed? Yes, I have. But that doesn’t mean that I HAVE to take their apology
@@Zaneexists but she DID forgive him. That's the biggest issue. Their relationship was great. And then someone told her a story. And she believes it uncritically. And then theres an interview, that she accepts at face value. And then there's media reports, that she takes without question. When it comes to learning about Bojacks dark past, she listened to absolutely everyone except Bojack. Now, if she had spoken to Bojack after learning the things she did, and then decided to cut him out, that would be totally understandable, and indeed the RIGHT choice. But Shady's channel is all about empathy, and about how EVERYONE, no matter how evil, deserves to have their side of the story told. Hollyhock denied Bojack that opportunity, and that's why he takes issue with her in this video. He even says at the end that leaving was not the wrong choice, his issue is that she did it via letter, rather than just talking to him.
@@Zaneexists I don't think a slur is anywhere near the same as being a drug addled person.
This wasnt a legal trial, she isnt the state, people have a right to protect themselves from toxic people even if those people might one day redeem themselves.
She made the right decision based on the information she had and the concerns she rightly had.
You are not obliged to have anyone in your life, and she did what she had to do to protect herself at that time.
Okay, bailer
Agree. You are not obliged to have someone in your life AND you are not obliged to save others. Especially if you are a 20 years old and the other one is your very grown up brother. People judge her only because BoJack is the protagonist of the show and seeing it from his perspective allows us to see all the justifications he gives for himself
@@loiracitr ppl don't judge her because Bojack is the protagonist or some shit.. it's just because hollyhock was the last person he had...and even though he told her what to expect from him and that he is a bad person she still gave up on him without discussing with him what she heard about him...
@@hush7359 You make it sound so simple when its not
@@hush7359 >even though he told her what to expect from him
As if that gives him an excuse for all the things he's done. As if that makes her somehow wrong for not wanting to stay with him once she learned the extend of what he did.
If Hollyhock just left and didn't even give him the letter, she'd still be 100% in the right. I can discuss it with you more if you'd like to.
This video is kind of off putting. Taking a gender studies course is not a reason why hollyhock left bojack.
Cough cough strawman cough cough
The show was trying to say something, every "coincidence" was hand drawn and written. She could have been studying phycology, se could have been studying philosophy, but the show clearly wanted to tell us that the only reason why this young girl took all these good decisions in her life is because now she have the "gender perspective".
Diane is an adult, Hollyhock is still a teen. She was drugged in his home and he didn’t know her well enough to even recognize someone was wrong. He’s actively lied to and manipulated her to her face (drug hunting) and continuously weaseled his way back into her life because he’s a good talker. She knew this and cut him off via letter so she didn’t have to risk him talking circles and ending up back in her life again. Hollyhock made this decision based on her past experiences with this grown man nearly triple her age because she knows what healthy relationships look like from her own life. Nothing about her relationship with BoJack was healthy for her and she was not a coward to cut that off. Everything she learns about BoJack is horrible, every time she sees him there’s something horrible. She saw a pattern and dipped and that’s good! Don’t argue a teen should keep a creepy 50 year old who is basically a stranger in their life because it’s not fair to the 50 year old. It’s not the kids job to wait and see if this grown adult is going to grow out of their horrible toxic behavior and hang on to the idea that they might. This was all BoJacks fault and Hollyhock was right to let him go.
I think HH may have been 20 at the time, but 18-21 is considered late adolescence and that’s barely not a teenager, so this point about Bojack being an adult and HH being a kid is definitely still relevant.
she is 21 years old not a child
Youre forgetting one thing though, diane is more mature and intellectual, hollyhock is like 19 or 20. No one makes right choices during that time because we are still trying to figure things out, hollyhock wasn't cowardly she was being careful.
Agreed. Hollyhock finds out all these awful things and connects them to patterns she's seen in Bojack in the past, and this video claims she's supposed to somehow handle this really well as a late teen/young adult.
I gotta say, I love your stuff shady and I usually agree, but this time I don't. I think Hollyhock WAS scared of Bojack. She got drugged at his house, and that was Bea's fault, but she never had any proof of that so she was just taking Bojack's word for it. Then she got sucked into his drug hunt in season 5. Then she hears about Maddie, then she hears about Sarah Lynn. I bet all that made her say hey, I'm not the only young woman who has been sucked into his drugged up antics and got some harmful substance in my body as a result. Whether or not all those situations were Bojack's fault, it would make her doubt whether she could trust him at all considering how strong a hold his addiction has on his life. And he immediately spirals back into it, so she's right, he hasn't gotten control of it. The basis on which she trusts him, love and his sobriety, is fragile. I think it's just fear that his love for her will never be stronger than his addiction potentially putting her in danger, just like it did in season 5.
Fuck hollyhock
- didn't she straight up chloroform rag Todd twice? seems like she should have a bit of sympathy for someone drugging another person, and at least when Bojacks mom did it she had dimentia and twistedly thought it was for her own good.
@@Babidi111 Lol that's a good point. I forgot about the chloroform but it was played as such a joke, I don't think the writers meant it as a part of her character development
You did not just call a 19-20 year old girl cutting herself off from a 56 year old toxic murdering groomer a COWARD. And you did not just shame a boy the same age who had to watch a 51 year old man pressure him and his friends into drinking leading to the alcohol poisoning of her girlfriend then leaving HIM to deal with it alone who has to go to therapy years after the fact bc he wasn't 'objective'. Neither of them have the audience perspective and neither have the experience to work through these feelings. The only thing that prevented them from being murdered like Sarah Lynn was their support systems. It's wrong of you to put it on Hollyhock to make it work, especially when she tried and especially when she found out the shit he did to young women. Bojack and Mr.PB may be cool characters but irl, they are horror stories for young women. Like dude, you saw what he did to PC and Todd- young people who stuck by him and defended him, you know he was going to screw up somehow. The interview had a purpose but she wasn't wrong. Hollyhock even witnessed on of the things and he admitted to taking advantage of Sarah Lynn. She owed him nothing and cutting him off when she did not only saved her from the phone call but gave her the best chance to a healthy life.
I'm going to be blunt here. You're sexist. You put the lady characters on a pedestal that you don't with the men. You did it with Diane and you're doing it with Hollyhock even though when you really look at everything everyone has done, Bojack and Mr. PB have the worst track records
Bojack hasn't groomed literally anyone you dingdong. That interview was carefully planned to make Bojack look like spawn of satan by erasing the context of everything.
@@tonzennegger7185 all the things in the interview he had done at one point. He just didnt have that same intent that was described. The creators of this show didnt make bojack a character ypu should defend.
Honestly, this video leaves me with a bad taste. Pete and Hollyhock were kids. None of the blame is on them. And they should not be held anywhere remotely close to the same accountability as BoJack or PB.
Yeah I think this is a bad take. Hollyhock is a young woman about to start her life. BoJack is a middle-aged man who actively sabotages his own happiness and the happiness of those around him- especially when they are young women. Their relationship has brought Hollyhock nothing but grief. She doesn't owe him anything, much less her continued presence in his life
yes, it's called affective responsibility, if you're going to break up with someone you should tell them, don't act like a coward
you're really low key faulting a teenage girl for distancing herself from a family member with predatory behavior and a history of substance abuse? even if she communicated with BoJack, i don't think it would have changed a thing. she doesn't owe him a damn thing.
I don't think Bojack had a predatory behaviour. He sought people who were either like him, or felt they could make him better. Mr. Peanutbutter though always went out with someone younger than himself, they showed how he would always get divorced and end up with a younger girl each time. Someone easy, or fresh.
Loot Cat True, but Mr Peanutbutter wasn’t an abusive person. He was an immature person, and by the end of the series, he’s finally growing up and embracing a single life. He changed, and he didn’t have to hit rock bottom or go to jail or get someone killed to do it either.
She's more of a young adult at that point in the story
Agreed. Host just tries to criticize her actions by going on about the legal system of judgement, like people cant make their own decisions.
@@lootcat1230 didn’t bojack go after a 17 year old? And after the fact traumatized her
I gotta disagree, especially about Pete Repeat. The fact is, he was a kid. Bojack should never, ever have brought the alcohol, he should never have let them drink it. But he does. He was a trusted authority figure and he knew it and he let them drink to the point of excess dumping a girl off in a very dangerous way that absolved him of legal guilt.
And it was no different from Sarah Lynn. What Hollyhock doesn't know is that Sarah Lynn was sober for months before Bojack contacted her. Sarah Lynn was surrounded by drugs, but she wasn't using them until Bojack, her friend and father figure, encouraged her to use and use to excess. And then he basically dumps her later.
Bojack is a disgusting person and why should Hollyhock help him? Why is she obligated to have anything to do with him?
THANK YOU
Exactly
I do agree but I also think it's unfair how everyone assigns this "father figure" role onto bojack as if he wasn't an actor in his 20s on a show and coming into his own adulthood and adjusting to Hollywood life himself. Sarah Lynn had an ACTUAL father figure in her life who was abusing her and HER OWN MOTHER exploited her and did her own damage to her based on the last voicemail she left her.
Also her hairdresser knew her stepdad was being weird but the solution was to start doing her hair and makeup in BJ's room? And BJ isn supposed to be at fault bc Sarah Lynn drank his alcohol when she was being left unsupervised in HIS dressing room? Bojack did impart damage on her but it was her parents' responsibility to get to know the people and the environment she was in and protect her from it but didn't for reasons already mentioned.
@@blaccnblu I think the issue I have with this line of thinking is that it's used to absolve Bojack of guilt. Absolutely no one is saying that Sarag Lynn's parents aren't awful bags of shit. No one is saying that plenty of these people didn't make mistakes. You can only be in control of yourself and do your best, which Bojack repeatedly didn't do.
@@carlycrays2831 no one is perfect we all make mistakes
When I heard the word cowardly used to describe Hollyhock, I just about threw my phone out the window. I wish I were able to cut off toxic people out of my life. She's literally a teenager trying to figure out life. She does NOT owe someone who makes her uncomfortable and is a toxic ANY explanation for choosing not to involve herself with them. Confrontation of a toxic person can spiral fast and hard into a domestic situation and, tbh, he crossed lines and pressed when he could see she was uncomfortable. Knowing that someone has, yet again, done something horrible and that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior when it comes to all people, not just toxic ones, why should she hold onto the hope that he'll be better? Why should she have to put herself through that when she's got relatively good fighting chance to be someone that is well adjusted and functional? She doesn't. No one does. People can choose to hold out, but they don't have to just because they're your blood.
she is a coward
I think the second interview is very fair. Bojack did ruin Sarah Lynn and he literally prioritized saving his reputation over saving her life. He also almost had sex with a teenager which I feel like isint talked about enough. I think it was an extremely fair decision to cut him off considering all of the other things he's also done. I stopped feeling bad for Bojack because apology and regret cannot fix everything if u keep making the same choices. At one point he needed to face the repercussions for his actions imo.
This is a bad take. You're putting way too much fault on Hollyhock, and too much blame on Pete, both of which are very young people. Also, I did not interpret her relationship with Bojack as completely sound. Just because she said "I love you" and expressed concern over his addiction doesn't mean the things he put her through that night in an effort to get more pills didnt affect her. I think this was a long time coming.
This take comes off as super victim-blamey and bojack-apologist and while he isn't a real person, I think it's incredibly important to honor and recognize what he represents. And what he represents isn't something anyone is supposed to defend or root for. I think the idea that he wasn't completely to blame for the prom situation is a dangerous idea to put out to the public. Hollyhock is incredibly strong for cutting off BoJack. She owes him nothing.
Well he isn't completely responsible for the situation.
He was an instigator though and did worsen the situation
@@boerepompie8244 he is completely responsible though. He was the adult in the situation. Everyone else with him there was a child. They did not have fully developed brains like Bojack did. It was Bojack's full responsibility to keep those kids safe that night while they were in his care, and instead he chose to try to relive highschool and give one kid alcohol poisoning and attempt to statutory r*pe Penny. It is 100% on him.
@@boerepompie8244 if you give a literal child alcohol they're not gonna refuse, they're too young to understand the dangers of it and want to be seen as an adult, bojack is 100% to blame, he was in his 50s, they were children
@@wolfszerie this is true, except even if you had a rough upbringing it doesn't excuse this kind of behaviour
Bojack could literally tell His wrong doings, he knows right from wrong, but he kept choosing wrong.
His upbringing aside he had a choice
@@boerepompie8244 exactly, he's literally 50 he should know better, doesn't matter if he got abused as a child, he still shouldn't have given literal kids alchohol
As a psych student, what she did was exactly what most people need to do in seriously toxic relationships with a narcissist or abuser. Stonewalling is a classic technique needed when they are super manipulative and overpowering. I think her history with Bojack was so short (but of course meaningful) compared to Diane's that maybe their relationship was worth salvaging. Maybe his attempts at reconciliation seemed shallow to her, seeing his public cancelation unfold. She came into his life during the time he really needed to reflect on himself and be better AND he did do that. I don't think Bojack was a full-on narc, he had issues and a huge history of toxic behaviors. The thing is about family--whether blood or chosen, is that you can love someone from afar, stonewalling a narcissist in your family is difficult and hurts you more than most professionals realize. You feel it in the heart chakra. She's young, so you know that there is hope for their future. If this were reality, I would recommend for Hollyhock to keep her boundaries up and speak her feelings whenever she is ready. Bojack will just have to be patient with her, if he really is on the path of healing it will come naturally for them to support and love one another. She is allowed to feel how she feels, and he cannot change that or his past, all they can both do is heal and move forward.
There are so many issues with this video but I couldn’t help but cringe when you used the word canceled to describe what happened to bojack. that was a bit of a cop out.. the things bojack did were either illegal or morally bankrupt, he was hardly being canceled the man almost slept with a 17 year old and waited 17 minutes while the girl he’s known since she was a child overdosed along with all the other disgusting shit he did, him doing better doesn’t make his actions disappear and it doesn’t mean he can pass all blame to his past self that’s him finally being held accountable not canceled.
Bro i think cancelled was a figure of speech…remember in the show when the whale news reporter asked “is bojack cancelled?” In xerox of a xerox (I think?).
Well, it that frame of context, yea he was. Shady was just repeating it to form a context where Bojack got the fallout from the 2nd interview
Your comparison of a young woman's choice to distance herself from a person of Bojack's nature and the Judicial system is fraught. She doesn't owe him a fair trial, she hardly owes him a conversation as to why she is avoiding him. the story told by a victim downplayed aspects of Bojack's involvement, but he still did what he did. It was a lie, it wasn't a falsehood. That's why I found Biscuit's interview so compelling. Because yes, we know Bojack and we know he's trying to change, but she didn't tell one lie iirc.
Its not like Hollyhock is actively punishing Bojack... Why should there be a "fair trial" to justify protecting yourself and your life from someone who has proven to be dangerous and who you barely know? The world doesn't revolve around Bojack it is a completely fair decision to make and she's informed Bojack of her choice.
This video ain't it chief.
I'm with everyone who disagrees, this wasn't a good take, it's easy to side with a character when we see the world from their eyes, but what would have Hollyhock gained from asking BoJack about the horrible stuff that he has done? Nothing because Bojack is manipulative, even without trying, he will find a way to make himself sound like a victim, and how terrible he felt and blah blah blah. Bojack being a good person, was never going to last long, when it looked like his life was on track, it was always going to be for a short moment.
Comparing Hollyhock to Diane makes no sense, Diane is a thirty-something-year adult, so of course, she is going to communicate better than someone like Hollyhock who's what in her late teens to early twenties. You're comparing her to an adult who has had more experience in adult relationships platonically, and romantically.
Hollyhock did what was best for her, she wasn't ashamed of Bojack, she is uncomfortable around him. A young person who is socially shy isn't going to confront things face to face, but Bojack is a grown adult, it's not Hollyhock's job to help him, him getting ghosted is the least worse thing he has experienced. Bojack didn't learn from his many mistakes, Hollyhock confronting him to talk about how she feels, you either naive or haven't been watching the show very well.
I feel like Hollyhock drifted away from Bojack because maybe she was afraid. The victims of Bojack’s crimes always seemed to be young women and Hollyhock could have been afraid she would be the victim of one of these stories. It also might have had something to do with her dads and her realising if her dads knew all this they would want her to leave him. Ahhh that’s enough speculating for me 😅
Bro, you're making all kinds of excuses for BoJack, who is nearly four decades older than his baby sister. First the New Mexico incident isn't his entire fault (uh, it totally was), and then Hollyhock isn't giving BoJack a fair chance (a chance she doesn't owe him at all). Second, to compare Hollyhock's choice to distance herself from BoJack to Diane's choice to confront him is just ignoring the reality of how relationships work for younger adults. Diane is forty years old, with the life experience to prove it. Hollyhock is all of nineteen. What 19-year-old would have the confidence to confront a much older adult about his behavior, especially if it's about his treatment of young women and girls? How confident would you have been in a similar situation at 19?
And for what it's worth, I think Hollyhock was completely justified in cutting BoJack out of her life, at least for now. BoJack isn't fully healed from his demons yet, as his relapse demonstrated. He still needs to work on his unexamined childhood trauma and the adult relationships he has fractured. Until he does that work, no one in his life owes him anything. I fully believe that Hollyhock made the best decision for herself in removing him from her life. Maybe when she's older and he's more fully healed, she could give another chance. But not right now.
Yeah...Hollyhock's age should NOT be overlooked in this, shouldn't be held at the same standards as Diane who is older and has experiences first hand Bojack's toxicity a lot more. Maybe she feels unsafe? Maybe she really isn't strong enough to do it? She doesn't owe him that effort anyway.
I also don't agree that the interview gave her a wrong perspective, I see it less as difamation and more like Bojack being confronted by hard truths he hadn't realized before and Hollyhock surely realized too.
Also I think the premise (that she owes him another chance, an explanation, more time and space in her busy world) underestimates the legitimate harm his behavior has had and potentially would have on hh. He has even become a mentor to her best friend. That might have been a bit of a mindfuck for hh, too. I wonder)
I think it's less about owning him a chance and more about being considerate enough to give him one. If you love someone who has done nothing to harm you and isn't manipulative and abusive, the least you can do is talk to them when there's something wrong. You don't just abandon people that care for you out of the blue without any concern for their emotional state, it's a sign you never truly cared to begin with.
This comment sums up my thoughts.
Yes. Hollyhock made the choice that everyone who knew Bojack wish they had made before it was too late. Bojack is too much, man.
as someone who was actually in a situation very Very similar to hollyhocks, having a much older toxic brother who has awful and sketchy relationships with young women, plus a drug problem. but despite it all Really does love you, but you cant be around him anymore. the hardest thing i ever did was cut him off.
i relate to hollyhock more then i ever have with a cartoon character.
Bojack is quite literally the most toxic and destructive person in the show. He's responsible for the death of a girl not that much older than Holly, not to mention Hollyhock is a CHILD. This was probably the safest and healthiest decision she could ever make in her life. Not to mention he put HER life in danger so he could secure some drugs! That's HORRIBLE.
For someone to paint all of Bojack's actions with the classic excuse of "Oh they're family" is, to the highest degree, inexcusable.
In my personal opinion, she definitely did make the right choice. I know that there are a lot of colors to BoJack, but for her own good I believe it is best for Hollyhock to cut BoJack out of her life. I really wish the best for all of the characters for the show, and I believe the best path forward for Hollyhock is to be on her own. I don’t care if she is taking a gender studies course, I don’t care if Pete Repeat is exaggerating certain elements, and I don’t care that she didn’t address the root problem, she needed BoJack gone, and I am sticking with that, because that is the best path forward in my eyes towards her. Plus she is just been birthed into the world of adults, of course she can’t handle the situation 100% appropriately, she has a lot to learn. Honestly I think she handled the situation the best way she could at the time, even if it’s indirectly, this stuff hurts a lot despite the fact that she says that she doesn’t love him, and I don’t blame her for doing that in a cowardly manner.
Also the fact that BoJack didn’t have a fair trial is pretty much the point, it’s commentary of the unfairness of cancel culture.
"Unfairness" ???? He let Sarah Lynn fucking DIE to cover his own ass. The only thing that was unfair was the fact that he got away with gross negligence for YEARS without any sort of punishment.
@@Zorae42 I don’t think anybody should get the treatment that BoJack did, even if he has done shitty things, including him.
Diane was sitting by herself, and Bojak started a conversation... that doesn't make her brave for only having the conversation because she happened to bump into him. About the fair thing. It was completely fair. He is toxic and foul, and a consistent liar so not wanting him in her life is justified. She didn't even need to send him a letter. If it was me I would just not talk to them again. Toxic people are a burden and don't always deserve an explanation or a chance to explain themselves. Yes they say they have or will change, but you don't have to put yourself in emotional pressure whilst waiting around to see if this time they do change
Bojack should have just not done a bunch of terrible things... It's not on hollyhocks shoulders to give a fair trial someone like Bojack. She owes him nothing. He put himself in every bad situation he experiences. It's his fault hollyhock stopped talking to him, not hers. Bojacks actions are terrifying, ESPECIALLY for a young girl. I still hate that he doesn't get to connect with her again, but she's not being a coward.
Yes, she owed him, we all deserve closure, she is a coward
im so glad the comment section understands that the decision hollyhocks makes with Bojack, even though it sucks for Bojack, our pov character, is the right decision full stop.
I think she definitely made the right choice based on what she knew. If I was her at that age I would have most likely done the same thing. She is very young, and being forced into a difficult position where she has to reconcile with the fact that this man she who she both wants to and feels obligated to love because theyre siblings, is never who she thinks he is and it's scary! She keeps getting new information from different people and it makes her unsure of how safe bojack really is. Along with that theres the fact that though she did love him, even with Bojack's growth, at that point he obviously wasn't equipped to reciprocate her care in quite the same way, and maybe didn't even really know her either? This is seen through his attempts to salvage their relationship. I think even though he was encouraging her and trying to be there for her his efforts still had a selfish motive to them based around his dependence on Hollyhock's support which blinded him to her discomfort and the hints she was giving him.
They've had tons of discussions prior to this, and he doesn't tell her anything about it. Hollyhock doesn't have a moral obligation to be his friend
she didn’t owe bojack any kind of explanation. i think it’s extremely brave to cut someone off without saying anything. bojack consistently hurt young girls (sarah lynn, penny etc) and showed how irresponsible and reckless he could be. it’s sad because yes, he cared about hollyhock, but he tends to hurt those he cares about, and that’s demonstrated throughout the show.
also: did you just call feminism a “social justice warrior mentality”?
fr.. this video sits really weirdly with me. first red flag is when he sorta defended trump? kinda? ig its a good thing im not wearing rose tinted glasses
@@belleanndm i noticed that too!! and why would he use trump as an example, of all people? just because some of the stuff he did was exaggerated by the media doesn’t mean he hasn’t done genuinely disgusting things
Yes, she owed him, we all deserve closure
I thought it was nice of her to write a letter, though she didn't owe him that. She didn't owe him anything.
Yes she did. She made the best decision for herself and her well-being. And I think it worked as the biggest proof for BoJack that his actions had consequences. Real consequences.
EDIT
Even if Pete Repeat is exaggerating the situation, it doesn't change the fact that what BJ did was wrong.
In my opinion Pete Repeat didn't exaggerate anything. Believing Bojack's not fully to blame for this disaster of a prom night, just because the kids didn't say no to the alcohol that HE offered to them is just mind blowingly ignorant. This dude's take is hot garbage.
McDoucheybag So what you're saying is, the statement "this guy bought us bourbon and practically forced us to drink it" was a 100% true, not at all exaggerated statement?
@@ShadyDoorags What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter, because it wouldn't have changed anything. The fact of the matter is that Bojack, a fully grown ass man who should've known better, encouraged some kids to drink bourbon. Do you really think Hollyhock would've changed her mind about him if he had worded that detail differently? It's not only about what had happened in New Mexico after all.
@@mcdoucheybag As I explained in the video, it is very possible that a pbjective version of the story might've changed Hollyhock's perspective as there are real life examples of people hearing something bad about someone, hating that someone because of it, but then finding out later that what they heard was exaggerated and feeling sympathy for the person even though they still did something bad. Finding out you were lied to, even when it's slight exaggerations, can greatly change an opinion. It won't always happen, but it is a possibility.
@@ShadyDoorags bud literally no one in this comment section is agreeing with you. and on concept, changing the structure of the sentence isn't really going to change most people's opinion. end of the day, he's an adult that bought children alcohol, watched them drink it to excess, and then encouraged one of the children to cover for him while the kid's girlfriend was literally hospitalized due to alcohol poisoning. from the most objective standpoint possible, he's still a shit dude.
There is NO way to word that that's going to make someone stop and be like huh, he's not so bad. if you genuinely think there is a way to say that in a way that's more sympathetic to bojack then I honestly do really question you, you're showing far more nuance and sympathy for bojack than any other character and it's kinda fuckin' weird, dude.
I feel like you make some really good points; but you forget to point out the age/life experience difference between Diane and hollyhock, it would be easier for Diane to approach bojack on the same level and address her issues with him and make her decision then, especially when you consider the front row seat shes had to his life/actions, whereas hollyhock, as a much younger and more naive person, with much less life experience, has to make her decisions based on the limited life experiences she has had, and her information. It's very easy as an adult to critique children or teen's choices, but we have to remember their perspective; did hollyhock make the right choice? I don't know. But can I relate to how she handled things, as a 21 yr old ? Yes. I'm sure as hell not equipped to deal with an male adult relative with substance abuse issues/history of, and a long track record of, even if not intentioned, essentially abusing young women. Would i cut that relative out of my life completely, to protect my friends and other loved ones? Most likely. You could even say hollyhock is protecting bojack by removing him from an atmosphere she worries could trigger him, what with house parties + the alcohol/drugs in those situations, young women without parental supervision, and being in a position of power over them, all of which have been proven to be things bojack will abuse if he's in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And as we see, Diane actually does still cut Bojack out. She's just able to say goodbye to him, that's really the only difference.
Nice point
Additionally, Diane had a very similar upbringing to Bojack, she also came from a family that constantly neglected her, humiliated her and psychologically abuse her for years. It's one of the reasons why she could always sympathize him to a certain point, and what indirectly made their bond so strong throughout the seasons. Hollyhock came from a very loving family of 8 people that all cared and looked out for her in the same way. To put them both at the same standard is unfair since their experiences are so different that there's no way Hollyhock could've responded to Bojack's fuckery the same way as Diane.
Diane’s perspective was one of a more known perspective on what bojack has done and who he was, and that’s why her handling came from a much more nuanced place, she was also a lot older and more experienced cognitively, and emotionally I think, and that allowed her to listen to both sides and understand certain nuances to bojack that hollyhock doesn’t.
This is the great thing about this show. It has different characters that react in different ways to what bojack did, and they all perceive him differently.
Bruh why do people play devil's advocate for a guy like Bojack. The argument should have ended at "Bojack is the type of guy who is okay with supplying teens alcohol". What a lame take
“social justice warrior mentality”
*record scratch sound*
I’m frankly astonished you expect a young girl to “bravely” confront someone who’s only been in her life for a couple years at the most, who has displayed really dangerous behavior in the past, and is now publicly known as both a predator and a potential cause of someone’s death. Hollyhock made the right choice. Bojack would have dragged her down just like he did to Diane; hell, Diane even says as much in the final scene, that Bojack always made her feel like it was her job to save him. You talk about
giving someone a “fair trial” but I don’t think you understand that individuals are not beholden to such rigid laws outside of the court of law. Where is your empathy for Hollyhock realizing that her half brother has hidden some extremely nasty things about his past from her? Of course, you blame it on the gender studies course, as if her decision wasn’t her own.
IcyBones agreed
Yeah the fact it was chalked up to a gender studies course putting "SJW ideology" in her head entirely ignores her agency as a person. If I reconnected with a long lost relative significantly older than me as a teenager, and he latched onto me really intensely, and then it came out he nearly slept with a teenager and slept with a cast member who was "like a daughter" to him that he watched grow up, I would get the hell out of there! That's not being brainwashed by feminism, that's common fucking sense your parents teach you. How fucking scary would that be. And can you imagine the feeling of disgust and betrayal that your middle aged brother was (based on all of the secondary information you've ever heard about this person that you have no reason to doubt) preying on you? Yes, it could have been talked out and saved Bojack's pain, and the pain of her living potentially the rest of her life thinking he was trying to take advantage of her (or worm his way into her life to take advantage of her peers). But in a situation like that, is it worth the risk of having an in person confrontation with someone with a history of violent and manipulative behavior? Bojack has talked his way out of accountability time and time again, and if she was this worried that she was being groomed, she likely evaluated that it wasn't worth the risk to give him the oppurtunity to manipulate her. You can't fault people for protecting themselves.
Absolutely agree. Hollyhock is in college which believe me is one of the craziest most hectic time of a young person’s life and to mix in all of BoJack’s absolute nonsense with the insanity of college isn’t fair to her and I credit her for having the courage to cut him out completely.
But the weird part about her not confronting Bojack is that she has already done so in the past. Hollyhock is one of the most emotionally mature, understanding and empathetic person in the show. She didn't even give Bojack a platform to speak to her directly, which she has the right to do, but if she truly loved him like she did she would have given him a chance. And she didn't, she's young so she's probably confused, but he's also going through a lot and he didn't even have the ability to talk to one of the closest people in his lives.
agreed, by the way the final song could be like the message from diane to bojack or at least is my interpretation
Bojack has been a toxic and negative experience in hollyhocks life and she she shouldn't be expected to stay by his side. The trauma you have does not justify the trauma you inflict on others and while bojack means well, he should not have been allowed around hollyhock.
I might also mention that it was bojacks fault that that one girl got alcohol poisoning. He was the adult and again he created a very traumatic situation for pete. He wasn't a scapegoat, he was responsible for what happened.
He's not an evil person. He has had a lot of trauma in his life and he doesn't know how to help himself, but that doesn't mean that the people around him are obligated to stay. Even as an adult she is under no obligation to stay in his life especially when he has had such a negative impact on it.
I have to disagree with this one Bojack has said some awful things to her cause he’s just a bit blunt in the way he speaks but Bojack has never done anything to hurt Holly Hock in fact, he spent the most effort when he thought he could have been his dad than he would have spent with anyone else. Bojack has never taken interests in things even his closest friends do. I feel like even though Bojack changed for the better He is very much aware of the reality some things can just not be fixed and this is exactly why it is so hard for people to change. After people have been convinced for years and years that change will occur and it doesn’t anything that happens after that appears as a tall tale
However Bojack had this one characteristic which was completely inappropriate he did in which he brought Hollyhock in his search for drugs after she had got rid of them. Other than that, Bojack has showed support more for Holly hock in his life and although her decision may have been valid I think it is important to acknowledge that Bojack was trying to be a better person not only was he sober when seeing her at the university, but he made an effort to spend time and get to know her
i’ve never disagreed with anything more
I mean she, a teenage girl, found out he preyed on a teenage girl. I wouldn't wanna stay.
all i can bring myself to say on it is that i GET it, but that doesn't mean i have to to LIKE it. life sucks sometimes
I dont really agree with the thesis of this video. Yes, Bojack changed for the healthier and the better. But Hollyhock being uncomfortable with the presence of him is more than enough for her reasoning behind sending the letter. Calling her cowardly for not disregarding her own ease to make room for bojack is lowkey backwards. Why should she drop things that are going well for her to make room for him? I think that's kinda what the point is when diane said sometimes life's a bitch and you keep living. Yes, "objectively speaking" in the name of fairness and equal opportunity, she could have heard him out. But people aren't neutral. We're emotional and we perceive differently than one another. I dont think that it's fair to question her motives. Reasoning? Sure because its important to explore and better understand a person. But to question her on sending a letter? I think using context clues, like her youth for example, we can conclude that she was uneasy around him and we can just accept that.
"Why should she drop things that are going well for her to make room for him?"
She didn't need to drop anything to make room for Bojack. He was already in her life. The reason why she should've at least tried to get a fair perspective is because she cares about Bojack and he cares about her. She's losing loved on over a potential misunderstanding.
@@ShadyDoorags because in the show we are shown that its straining for a person to make room for bojack. Its happened essentially with every character in the series. And it wouldn't be fair to not acknowledge that bojack is healthier person. But also, ya know, to respect each person's wishes. Hollyhock isnt any less valid than bojack is. And I'm not saying that you're saying that. I'm just saying that for her, if that's what she wants than that ok, and if she were to want repair her relationship in the future with him that's also ok. The important thing is that bojack respects and loves her enough to see that emotional and mental strain, and honor it.
@@ccruzrojo8856 The problem of this discussion is that we didn't get to see Hollyhock perspective
@@ccruzrojo8856 Let's look at this from the other end.. you do know she had plenty of chances to tell Bojack what she really felt, but always took the path of least resistance. She never confronted Bojack with her problems with him even though she had many chances.
It's not really about how people distance themselve from bojack... everyone except for Mr Peanutbutter did. And like her brother, she is quite capable of being a horrible person. What she did is understandable, but it's also horrible considering we know the truth on Bojack side. But hey, at least she has the decency to let to him.
It's totally fine for someone to cut a loved one out of their life if their presence makes them uncomfortable
It's also completely justified to say that's bad if those feelings have no legitimate justification in the first place and no attempt is ever made to verify them
“social justice warrior types” right i’m out this video ain’t for me (i watched the whole video btw and holy god bad bad take)
Every minute BoJack waited through Sarah Lynn's death was an entire year of Hollyhock's life.
If BoJack feels as guilty as he claims - as we know he is - then every minute felt like an eternity.
And he still did it.
Hollyhock made the right choice.
I think the two big things for her would've been the Penny thing, and him having sex with Sarah Lynn. If Bojack could do that to someone her age, and to someone he openly considers to be "like a daughter", who's to say he wouldn't do that to his 17 year old sister?
This probably re-contextualised their entire relationship in her mind, and more specifically, why he was so attached to her. Like, maybe someday he'd be saying "I didn't even have sex with her until she was 30" about her.
We know that's not the case, but I don't think Hollyhock has any reason to.
Dude exactly! Like i can see him trying to fuck her and be like “shes only my HALF sister”
@@assyrianprincess3 And considering there's THAT kind of art out there... That's just scary,. However, the whole Bojack has GSA issues would be an interesting twist but he's damaged enough as it is without that on top of it!
@@Hulk2k6 But it wouldn't be out of character tho.
@@assyrianprincess3 Someone will probably write a fanfic about that and it would all depend on the writer...
@@Hulk2k6 What's GSA?
Gotta disagree with this video.
For one Holllyhock is young, she was drugged by his mother and saw Bojack go through a drug addiction. Hollyhock probably couldn't put her feelings into words until she put them on paper.
Diane is older, struggled with mental illness, had a divorce and had to move away to rebuild her life. She has more live experience than Hollyhorse and that fact is clear as day in the show. Their characters can not be compared.
Also when Bojack was in that second interview and it pointed out that he has a history of going after younger women, Princess Carolin looked down in shame. As his agent for many years, she noticed this pattern. All the older people around him know what kind of person he is.
This video is drenched in an apologist tone. Like saying people should automatically forgive people for their past or "listen to their side". In reality, that's not how life works. You don't owe a toxic person an explanation for why you are leaving.
You are really trying to push a "Hollyhock is a cowardly feminist, sjw" narrative when she's just a young person who don't want to deal with bs.
I mean I think it was pretty fair criticism all around. It wasn’t like the evidence didn’t make sense. I mean they made it obviously known she was taking gender studies and even referenced a real book so it’s obvious they wanted it to play a role.
There is something called loyalty I am loyal to my friends I would rather be dragged down then abandoned them alone
@@Canev821 Bojack has given Hollyhock no reason to be loyal to him tho. They weren't friends, they were essentially strangers tied through blood trying to make something work but Bojack was just too toxic to stay in her life
You. I like you.
The fact Beatrice did that pretty much killed what little good will she had in sparring both her and Henrietta from how she did Bojack dirty all his life.
Makes you wonder if Bea ever kept entertaining doing the same to Bojack as a kid or to Butterscotch between his drinks before that point (nevermind his fate via the stupid duel)
I know this is not necessarily about what’s best for the story, but I do want to point out how powerful it is in the story. There are so many themes throughout the show of generational trauma. Bojack, for example, could’ve cut off his mother earlier in his life and maybe avoided a lot of pain. But he couldn’t make that decision. The fact that Hollyhock does make this hard and sad decision, seems to me to be her taking control of her own life and choices. She doesn’t let herself be tied to the trauma that runs through the Sugarman/Horseman family.