Sonic Forces: The Problems We Are Ignoring
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- čas přidán 20. 03. 2017
- As good as Sonic Forces is looking right now, it's continuing a trend that is bad and possibly even a series killer for Sonic if it continues much longer.
Sorry for the multitude of mispronunciations and misspeaks. Long-form recording is new territory for me.
Gameplay footage in the video comes from:
The Great Clement
/ clementj642
cobanermani456
/ cobanermani456
Paraxade0:
/ paraxade0
speakofthed3ad
/ @speakofthed3ad
This video is not monetized by me. - Hry
To quote Modern Sonic from MugiMikey's Green Hill Zone 2017 Animation
"It's not nostalgia, if it's now the norm."
The reason boost games always come with an added gimmick is because the formula itself is flawed from a development standpoint. Modern Sonic moves incredibly fast, and has a very unique style of gameplay. Both of these factors make level design much more time consuming. Faster character = larger levels to accommodate that speed, so that you don't just finish every level in a few seconds. Larger levels = more development time needed to create levels. To compensate, they add in gimmicks to add to game time. It could also be a lack of confidence in the boost formula, but I think this is the bigger reason behind it. I would much rather Sonic Team scrap the boost in favor of something else, as I feel the boost has a few other issues tied to it, but that's just me.
This !!! I've been trying to say this for months ! That's why the Boost would fit better a spin-off racing game, not a main title.
Make sonic a little slower, you can still make him feel fast, that's why people like the adventure formula.
RednekGamurz Sonic Rush shows otherwise. Even Black Knight.
Sonic Rush was a game that used sprites and simple 3D models. You can't properly compare that to a modern-day 3D game. Rush could get away with the boost because of it's graphical limitations. Black Knight isn't a good back-up point either. It's not a boost game, for one thing, Sonic doesn't move all that fast, the level design is super simplistic, and even with all that said, Black Knight reused a ton of assets and had a lot of extra missions in existing levels to make the game seem bigger than it actually was. Black Knight (not counting cutscenes) is about as long as Generations (maybe a tad longer, but I can't imagine by much).
I say they could still use the boost to full Effect, just handle it like Colors, where you aren't given boost every second, it is only something earned through killing the right enemies or a bit of boost through a power-up box. That makes it so only the Truly Skilled and Dedicated fans can blow through levels in mere seconds or very few minutes through Strategic usage, and this in turn makes it so Sonic is slower naturally more often, so they can scale down the levels to make it work and still feel fast. As another CZcamsr stated 'Speed is nice, but that is all I'm doing, I'd rather be playing a racing game.' and personally I would rather feel that adreiline I get from the Boost formula from Sonic's Natural Speed and the Boost is a quick shot of that to keep it going, but like adreiline, it burns quickly, leaving me hungry for me. That's just me though.
I actually don't like the design of classic sonic at all, at least in modern games. He looks much too childish and doesn't have an ounce of the personality and sass that the actual classic sonic did.
Classic Sonic always looked "childish", whatever that means. Have you seen the old official art?
He's just lacking that 90's 'tude personality that he originally had. They need to give that back to him.
If I could choose, I would have Sega abandon anything but classic Sonic. Meaning keep anything from the original games pre-Dreamcast, and keep the classic Sonic from Generations as well.
Codrian Drasil, have fun with Sonic Boom little child.
gamephreak5
Compare the design he has in Generations and this to the Japanese Artwork for Sonic 1, 2, CD and 3&K. And especially the Toei cutscenes of Sonic CD. You can see just looking at both how overly cutesy his animations and design are in Gens compared to the actual Classics.
Thinks about my first sonic game (sonic advance 3) and cries
Allen Smilden
Oh boy. Watching this two years later, and I feel bad for you, how positive you felt about Forces.
Another good example of using nostalgia that uses more often than Metal Gear would be the Kirby franchise. Games like RTTD, triple deluxe and planet robobot have tons of callbacks and references to older games, but because they are mixed with new concepts, they never get tiring. Plus, those games have established a formula that allows players to know where nostalgia will be. I know that the extra levels in each world will use old songs so I'm not expecting something new so I'm not disappointed, but I'm still excited to find out exactly what song they'll use. I know the final boss of extra mode will be a boss from an old game, but I don't know who it'll be and how they will change now that they are in a newer game so it's exciting
Belle Murray Personally, I don't because he doesn't show up in every game (Triple Deluxe, Amazing Mirror, etc.) and even if he does, he's either different in design and/or attacks (Clanky Woods, Wispy's Revenge, etc.)
Whispy Woods is more like the tutorial to beat a boss, take in mind that Kirby games are suppose to be easy, the only other reused bosses are Cracko and in some cases Dedede and Meta Knight, everything else is new.
However, even Kirby keep them unique, Triple Deluxe give Whispy Woods a completly new moveset that use the 2D.5 level design of the games and Planet Robobot turned Whispy Woods into some crazy robots with even more new movesets.
Belle Murray
I disliked the constant use of Whispy Woods, even flowery woods or Wispy's revenge. But, when they turned him into some killer robot out for your blood, that interested me!
Conor Faught I agree
Shakespeare's Apple. Exactly. Clanky Woods makes the normal Wispy Woods look like a sapling. I've never had the tree chase me through stages or shoot rockets at me. Not to mention that its 'leaves' are *literally bombs.*
Well thought out video, tried to sum a lot of these points in my Too Much Classic Sonic vid (which got hate lol). Enjoyed this quite a bit man.
StephenKnux sup Stephen really like your videos and I agree with this video as well sonic is just too many things at once and has no clear focus on what it wants to be.
the video is bad . they do the classic and modern sonic team up so they don't forget that there was a time before the boost and other characters that was squares into characters i feel like he says this cause he hates the sonic franchise
+charles peters You didn't see the end of the video did you?(he says he thinks sonic forces will be good) And wouldn't what you just said mean that they're cashing in on nostalgia? Please watch the whole video before making a conclusion about what he said.
StephenKnux hi I watch u
+charles peters *cough* Sonic Mania *cough* without boost *cough*
Seriously though, we already have Mania for Classic Sonic, why is he in Forces?
A lot of great points you made here! I'm still really excited for Sonic Forces, but a focus on the modern gameplay without any crutches would make for a very refreshing entry.
That comparison you made to MGS4 was surprisingly effective, great job on that one!
"why are they not confident with one style of gameplay?" because the sonic fanbase is NEVER satisfied. A game considered bad can become good in 1 year and a game considered good can become bad in 1 year. they are trying to please everyone and trying to have diversity so that people wont say it is garbage when the opinions change
Christian Deslauriers exactly you can't please people
Nothing is wrong with some creative criticism but Jesus
It's just bitch!bitch!bitch!
Give the people a break before they straight up yell fuck us and quit
He said it in the video.. "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you had the option to dine in 2 different restaurants, but you only could pick one. Would you pick the one with the 10/10 chef or the one with the 6/10 chef who is also a 7/10 car mechanic (he doesn't have time to be a master of 1, because he puts his energy into 2 jobs). This is basic stuff kid, you should be more demanding of your games. And please don't say Sonic fanbase. I dislike the Sonic games, but I really wish one would actually appeal to me, so I can jump right in. That Classic Sonic definitely doesn't attract me. The werehog didn't either. It feels like I get 2 games crushed into 1.
Wowie. Such ignorance. Its not our fault sega fractured the fanbase
i hate it when people use "our" and "us", you are not a whole body, you are not all innocent.
Yeah.
Sonic Adventure 1 and especially 2 are mediocre at best, trash (those Knux stages) at worst. But these games used to get unreal praise and fanfare.
Meanwhile, Unleashed got mixed reviews and pretty harsh criticism, but now it's basically praised for the solid day stages, creation of the Boost formula, and many have changed their mind about the werehog gameplay -- that's it's not bad, just different.
It's like how Super Mario 64 gets haters now about how poorly it's aged and complain about its mechanics when it was one of the tightest platformers to have ever existed. And how some now raise up old classics like Luigi's Mansion despite their more muted releases.
Same can be said of the "controversial" Wind Waker which is now beloved, and the "hyped" Twilight Princess which is now fairly disregarded.
Completely agree about Classic Sonic. I'm excited for Sonic Forces, Classic Sonic feels unnecessary to me and I'd like it to just be 3D Sonic but that won't stop me from buying or enjoying the game.
Same, I would maybe be ok with him if it wasn't for Mania and Modern Sonic was completely 3D.
Soraalam1 true I agree hopefully next 3d sonic game modern and classic sonic stay in their own games 2d sonic with 2d designs and 3d sonic with 3d designs
Soraalam1 OMG HI
Soraalam1 same
Soraalam1 if there is some classic gameplay i will still buy it. i wil just go through the classic stages as fast,as i can so i can,play the modern stages
I absolutely loved this, and agree with almost everything you articulated. The only thing I could take issue with is that I don't think you really justified your argument that continuing down this road would eventually cause the brand to collapse. Dilute it, certainly, but it's a bit too much of a leap to say that playing on nostalgia would cause it to run out of steam, at least anytime soon. Other than that, seriously, this was fantastic. You've got a new sub, and I'll be happy to help if you have any questions when it comes to the CZcamsz. :)
The Geek Critique Thanks so much man, long-time fan!!
I think I presented the arguments I wanted to, but my verbage I used ended up being stronger than the real intent. Thanks so much for the feedback!! I'll try to balance it out in the future :)
+TheKazeblade I mostly agree with you while I was expecting sonic forces to be something new,fresh,different and ambitous I don't mind the boost gameplay returning but I do think there's just way too much classic sonic he has his own spotlight in mania so there's almost no reason for him to be in forces(he's there for story purposes yes) but has sonic team really lost that much confidence in this brand that he'll be in every future game from now on if that happens I just might have to give up on this franchise while sonic is not my favorite series i would hate to see it become nothing but a series of nostalgia pandering, nostalgia can only go so far before it gets annoying and eventually tired while I like and appreciate the classic games as well I don't want classic sonic shove in my face constantly.
Edi Matos im sorry what?
excuse no reason . .. . people enjoy 2D game play thats a reason oh heres another people are a fan of the classics DON'T SHOVE WORDS INTO OUR MOUTH ABOUT HIM BEING WORTHLESS!
+charles peters He isn't worthless in something like mania, but forces? he shouldn't be in 3d sonic games.
Personally, I'm giving them the Classic Sonic pass on Forces. If they bring him into anymore modern Sonic games after this, not matter how far into the future, I'll be pretty sick of it.
But what about anniversary games tho?
That's what I said after Generations: You can only pull this card once, so make it count. As this is the second time their pulling it(fourth/fifth if you count Sonic 4 and Mania) and the last Boost title was Generations… can you see why I'm not quite as lenient?
Classic Sonic should have been replaced by Tails and Knuckles for Forces. Classic Sonic was fine for Generations, but I have no real interest in seeing him as a main character in the modern games again. Except perhaps as an unlockable skin for beating the game or something. I'm also not the biggest fan of having all the 2D gameplay in 3D Sonic games. It's not that I don't like 2D Sonic, (I pre-ordered Mania, please don't hurt me) I just prefer it to stay in the 2D games. In my opinion, the closest thing I've seen to the perfect form of a modern Sonic game was actually Sonic 06. (Again, please don't hurt me!) That game used both the adventure style momentum based speed, and the high-speed sections ala boost gameplay. Combining those 2 styles properly (not Sonic 06) would make for a truly great 3D Sonic game. (Again, just my opinion. Good day people! :)
I agree with you, it feels like Tails and Knuckles aren't even characters anymore in the modern series. Sega has also completely forgotten about shadow. And Sonic Boom doesn't count
FireGazer R. Agreed! Despite the overall bad quality of the Sonic '06 due to it being rushed, I enjoyed the Adventure formula. I would love to see it back, but perfecting the boost formula also sounds great to me. just leave Classic Sonic out of the 3D games!
completely in agreement on what you said, sonic 06 was a game
just only by having that story, that set of characters and 1 hour , 30/40 minutes of cutscenes made it great
one other example for me is also sonic heroes
there is potential but they have to rely on the serious and mature side of the sonic branch, not spamming fanservice's content as if it's a mod asking for money
just a good story and a 3d game with less boost (not 0, but at least less), more weapons and possibly a difficoult mode given by the AI instead of stats should be fine
Thanks. :) And I loved Heroes as well. Of course part of that will be nostalgia talking because it was my first Sonic game, but honestly I can pick it up anytime and have fun. Aside from cream and big, the voice acting doesn't bother me either.
You're welcome and you know Sonic heroes was my first sonic game as well and I enjoyed it a lot playing with my older brother :)
Seeing how people enjoyed insulting indiscriminately each sonic game except sa1/2 made me salty, but it's a relief that at leat 19 persons have good tastes
Let's hope forces will be a good game and that in future games other sonic characters will be playable (i want to play with many of them: silver, shadow, vector, knuckles, blaze, amy and there are more in my list)
My favorite part is the mention of precedent. I don't mind classic sonic but I agree that they shouldn't rely on him for every game. If they expand or actually use him together with Modern Sonic in a more interesting way then I'm all for it but just slapping his gameplay in doesn't do either Sonic justice, especially with Mania on the way. They have plenty of tools to make the franchise great, relying on nostalgia just makes it harder to look to the future.
But here's hoping for the best! Still beyond hyped for the game and can't wait to see the updates to the Hedgehog Engine.
I always felt that classic Sonic controlled better in Generations than the 2D segments in modern Sonic's levels, if they can do just that I think at least the 2D segments would be fun.
Afrohawk couldn't have said it better myself :)
And yet he still controlled worse than in in the ACTUAL classic games, which sucked
+munky cheez
It's like sonic team is unable to find balance, Classic sonic is too slow, sluggish and "heavy"while modern sonic is too fast, easy, bland and uninteresting.
munky cheez what?
The problem with the Boost gameplay standing on its own is that the levels need to be so huge to accommodate it that it would be an extremely short game, because making enough levels with their own assets and setpieces to get at least 10 hours out of the boost gameplay alone is simply not feasible. They try to wave this with padding like Classic Sonic and act like this improves the pacing, which it does in a way, but I think you can do that without tacking on a different playstyle.
The boost gameplay is flawed by default, and it's something I've been saying for years. They don't want to stray from what's been tried and true for success, but they don't want boosting to get stale either. There's only so many loops and quick-step sections I can run through before it starts to feel like I'm going through the motions, and this wouldn't be a problem if the levels gave you more control instead of the constant speed boosters and scripted sequences with virtually non-existent difficulty.
To add to this, while I think you bring up some solid points, I think you are grossly overestimating how strong the boost gameplay is on its own.
Think about how many people feel like the boost games play themselves, how they're "boost to win" or "Straight Line Generations". They NEED to supplement the boost gameplay, because otherwise it's just "GO GO GO. Ok now do some light platforming, now GO GO GO." There's a mindset that goes into the boost gameplay that would absolutely burn me out, and I think that goes for most people as well. It simply can't survive for a full game on its own. You NEED something to break up the action.
They only have two options right now. Either boost gameplay needs an accompanying gimmick (Classic Sonic) or they need to change entirely how the boost gameplay is set up. Because an entire game of Modern Sonic would not only feel short as hell, but feel incredibly shallow and undiverse.
Thank you !!! The Boost is a shallow formula. That's why it would work better on a racing spin off than a main title.
Ben - Definitive Dubs have you ever tried going out for those ranks? going after them requires you just think smarter about how your move. Like using the ramp mechanics or wall jumps more often to get your destination faster and smoother.
the very solution to your problem is staring at you right in the face at the end of every level. if you're not taking up that opportunity then that's more on you than the game
Cybernik The Hedgehog
Yo.
There's a reason detractors like me will insult it by calling it an "auto-game" or "temple run"
+Samir Malik
No offense, dude, but your arguments are basically the same type that I see in other communities where shallow gameplay is common (SC2 for example) people will argue that the shallow gameplay isn't so bad when you go after achievements or get bonus objectives etc.
But for one, that's usually not true, it's still shallow gameplay, (and it's almost always slightly faster rather than smarter) and it doesn't excuse a casual or average run of the game being shallow and uninteresting.
honestly amazing, everyone should watch this and not just if they like sonic but games in general
I should note that Forces started development BEFORE Mania, so perhaps Classic Sonic was too far into development of Forces by the time Mania was decided to work on to be safely removed from Forces without messing up the project majorly and wasting a ton of time.
But this video has opened my eyes to the topic.
Maybe we should wait until we have more than a ten second teaser to make claims about this being a "series killer". I agree that Classic Sonic isn't really needed, but we don't know anything other than that he's in the game. We don't know that he'll have less or more time on screen than Modern Sonic. He don't know in what way he's being integrated so we can't really claim that they're overly reliant on nostalgia. Not saying any of your points might not be issues, but there's no point to be pointing out flaws about a game that we don't know anything about.
Real fans don't play the waiting game when the quality of said "thing that your a fan of" has unconsistent quality. We'll read into every clue to make sure we're not getting screwed over like in the past. NOONE is saying Forces is gonna be a bad game...we're just tired of getting "crap" good games. We have the right to speak our mind and say we have higher standards now!
TL;DR don't overthink this stuff, a simple comparison to how other creators advertise their crap will give you a good idea on why people are hesitent about this game.
@Alienrun, "No one is saying that Forces is going to be a bad game" - The funny thing, is that there are people who say it's going to be a bad game, and over the ten second footage. And Classic Sonic is there? So what? The devs already said this will not be Generations 2.0
Great video. I agree with most of what you said. I'm personally not excited for Forces due to more boost, more classic Sonic, and more wisps. I'd rather have Sonic control more like how he did in Adventure 1 and 2, at the very least. That said, you mentioned having 3 pillars for Sonic (Classic 2D, Modern/Boost, and Experimental stuff for Boom) for different gameplay styles. I think Sonic needs 4 or maybe even 5 pillars like Mario does: Classic for 2D games, Modern 3D/2.5D Boost games, Adventure-ish games (Boost isn't good enough, we need a true, full 3D game with some slower platforming), and Spin-offs/Boom for Experimental stuff.
Basically the Mario/Megaman route is the best way to keep the fanbase happy. Different types of games to appeal to different types of fans, that way, everyone gets something.
gamelordabd Thanks for watching! Absolutely, Sonic shouldn't be limited to 3 pillars, just so long as the directions they go don't impede their other fronts :)
dude why the hate on sonic forces don't jump to conclusion that it is gonna fail jesus .. . oh btw you suck not trying to be a hater here but you are kinda hurting me child hood waiting for this game
Oh boo hoo, someone has an opinion on the internet you disagree with! Grow up. I've probably been playing Sonic games longer than you have, kid. What are you, 12 years old? Maybe younger? lol. This is a discussion for the grown ups. I don't like Colors, I don't like Generations, why should I care about this one? The answer is: I simply don't. I'd rather have something else. I'll keep an eye on it a little longer to see what this 3rd gameplay style is, but I doubt it'll change my opinion on the game.
I'm super disappointed about Classic Sonic in the game. It was cool for them to bring him in Generations when that game was trying to celebrate Sonic's legacy and all and the game was a blast from the past, but putting him in another anniversary title again? And using him instead of Sonic's friends? That's just dumb.
gamelordabd it doesn't matter the fanbase will still complain
I think that they should take time off after these games to rethink how implement modern Sonic better. I love the boost formula too because it gives you the sense of how fast he is, just like the anime movie and other media.
I think that Sonic Team should approach Sonic's gameplay like how the developers of LoZ: BotW. Focus completely on creating a world that's interconnected and massive. Then focus on a great story that can take place there. After that figure out what characters to include who are relevant. Then scale Sonic to fit the world so it wouldn't feel like he's gonna explore everything within 30 mins. Even if they had to change his model again to fit the new world I'm sure people wouldn't mind as long as it was an awesome game.
They could have modern Sonic be the only playable character and it wouldn't feel like your on a roller coaster the whole time. Change up his current skills or include some new one for him to use that will allow him to explore each area differently.
The Sonic the Hedgehog movie that came out in the 90s showed him as a tough, adventurous type who was fast as hell. He went against Hyper Metal Sonic. I'm sure they could do something along the lines of a Sonic RPG or a true adventure game. Can you imagine if they world create a world that was enormous and have Sonic explore different climates and environments that all connect in someway. You know how Angel Island looked at the end of Sonic & Knuckles from far away? You could see several different zones from the two games. If they could recreate that I would buy it.
I think perhaps that a full modern sonic game could work with adventure style gameplay, but with specific sections where you can boost like the ones in 06 but more refined
Instead of adding Classic Sonic again they should just take characters that would work in 3D like Tails, Shadow or Blaze and give them a gameplay that's similiar to Adventure or even '06 (just working). But not to many characters 3-5 at most.
Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde They could even use those characters with their classic gameplay styles.
Dude, those characters are never going to be playable again, just accept it.
O Pequeno Link That's because people made them afraid to use them
Check your spelling.
"doo", "endgy".
Yup, totally not wrong.
my theory on why the boost has never (apart from colours) has been on its own is that a lot of fans that you consider "fans that like to hate on everything" will argue that the boost gameplay is too linear and boring. though I say the boost formula is my favourite, there are a lot more people who think otherwise. so to conclude on why there are different gameplay styles is the deer of people not having fun with the boost all the time. at first we got the werehog focused on people who like beatemups and newcomers who don't like going fast, colours had wisps to give a small amount of variety for the game and generations for fans of the classics. watch bluerush1992's video on why the boost is bad and see what I mean on people not liking it.
I agree with what you said. I mean, it would be really boring if the whole game was just holding down boost and doing certain actions from time to time.
Jera Norton Maybe if they make work like Sonic Paradise?
The boost wasn't even on its own in Colors. There were wisps in that game.
I think the way Colours handled the Boost was pretty much spot on. It was there as a nice injection of speed at the player's control, but your use of it was pretty limited since you had to rely on white wisp capsules and certain enemies to build the meter. On top of that, there was a lot of legitimate platforming and reaction-based gameplay that meant it definitely wasn't just "boost to win
somasora7 I agree so much. I like Unleashed and love Generarions but Colors is still my favorite game despite its flaws because I love how they handled the gameplay. Boosting may be exhilarating but I love the exploration and hopefully they take the right pages from Colors to make a good game in either Forces or in the near future.
personally, I don't understand why people would want an entire boost formula sonic game. As fun and eye pleasing it can be, it would get incredibly boring without anything else in between, as it would just feel like the same level over and over, or just a level that never ends. Classic sonic creates something just as enjoyable and visually pleasing as the boost-formula.
max moore He didn't say there wouldn't anything between. He only said about having two MAIN gameplay styles, taking half of the game each. If there were some side games, it could fill that void, and keep things fresh.
max moore plus there are full boost sonic games. They're just in 2D
I love how the example bit about the band fits in exactly with what's going on in the gameplay clip with Sonic Colors. It's almost like it brought a much deeper meaning to what you're saying.
The only thing that I dont like about this argument, is that it appears to assume that classic sonic is going to be used in the exact same fashion that he was in generations. Sega already said this was not generations 2.0. Furthermore, we don't even know what role classic sonic plays in the game. We just know that he's there, and that's it.
ParkerLad88 Storywise there will be a justification for Classic Sonic, but from a purely gameplay standpoint, having a character that is only 2D is redundant when both Modern Sonic and the OC have any 2D sections.
Anthony Smith Green Hill?
Oh stop lying to yourself. This isn't generations 2 from a story point of view, but gameplaywise it looks identical. Plus from what I've seen the level design is really dull and enemies are there for the sole porpuse of being destroyed. Especially in the stages with the OC, look at the flamethrower. Line of enemies just stand there waiting fro you to use that, they aren't even a threat. At least Mania is here to save the day.
I also had similar thoughts that Classic Sonic is getting stale and that they are relying too much on him. But what I don't understand is why Sega isn't utilizing all of the other characters that are in the series. They are part of a resistance so clearly most of the characters are going to be doing something. So why bring back Classic Sonic when we could have different play styles in the form of Knuckles, Tails, Silver, or Blaze?
Spoiler Forces sucks
Poor Sega....they have a horrible fanbase they don't know what to do anymore 😢😢😢
To me having Classic Sonic in this game seems kind of redundant considering Sonic Mania.
they probably had this idea before mania existed. I can only imagine how awkward that must have been.
Sonic Mania came in development after Sonic Forces. SEGA wanted to make another 2D classic Sonic game to please Classic Fans because they felt Classic Sonic's Generations gameplay would never be the same as the originals (which is clearly visible).
They should have dropped Classic Sonic in Farces when Mania became a thing. Even the director said that Classic Sonic didn't work very well with Havoc.
Give Classic Sonic His Own Game And Take Him Back To His 90's Roots
That's exactly what Sonic Mania is.
gimmicks won't breath life into Sonic, they need something in game play that compliments his main game play factor: Speed. Let's use Mario Odyssey as an example. They have a new mechanic that let's you take control of other creatures that let's you explore the world in different ways, and 3D mario games are about exploration (Mario 64, Sunshine), and not only that but it can be used to create an additional platform anywhere in the world which plays off of his platforming component. Fludd allowed you to hover in the air which assisted with platforming. What did the Werehog do? It slowed down gameplay for mediocre beat-em-up sections. The boost mechanic however, allowed you to run through enemies and gather a ton more speed. Sure, some mechanics seem gimmicky like Mario being able to possess enemies, but since it's used to enhance the exploration game play it feels like a fine inclusion.
PurpleFaceMcgee I had an idea where when Sonic Drifts he gains a higher jump height for alittle while. It has 3 levels, and instantly upgrades from level 1 to 2 if you kill an enemy with it. But if you just drift regularly it upgrades overtime but much slower. Also he can only do this during the drift, he can't walk around with the power up.
One of the best videos ive seen about sonic in a while! You've basically summed up exactly what I feel about the modern sonic series. I hope the boost formula gets a fully fledged game soon before it gets stale.
Boost to win Sonic is casual and is killing the series.
There is just one thing you completely forgot: Sonic started out as a PLATFORMING GAME. People loved the platforming in sonic games and loved the speed formula in future sonic games. Also during the speed segment of levels, they are not challenging at all, almost to the point where you are practically invincible. The only times where you are not are when you are being chased by something/chasing down an enemy. It just would not make any sense to make a level with only the speed formula, hence why they go back to their roots with the 2d platforming. That's not the only reason either. Another reason is to extend gameplay. Blowing through a game with next to no consequences is not fun, at least to me and that is why they go back to the platforming.
I love the 2d sonic games but they tend to be very frustrating. Far to often I run into a whole and then die by falling to my death because I was moving way to fast for me to even be able to react. Lolol.
This problem only exists in Sonic 1 and 2, and there only in the non-speed levels. But I never had problems with it.
+Queron81 sadly, those were the ones I played. :(
You should get Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles - both great games and in combination even better. The best Sonic games this far.
+Queron81 after this channels video on the best sonic games, its definetly on my list to get. as is sonic mania.
(IM writing this comment as I watch the video so sorry if I write in something that you explain after the point I pause it at.)
first point I have to make is that I almost whole heartedly disagree with the idea that they are bringing in the classic sonic to distract from the effort put forth into the game and to not try as hard in coming up with originality. its a gimmick yes, but it doesn't mean its tearing the video games down in anyway by going back to the old stuff. (this is now an argument against your point): they have tried coming up with ideas like the games like sonic and the black night or that ring one and even the wahose were all new and fresh ideas but the execution of such things were done poorly and those ideas are what ended up making the franchise seem broken like they had no clue what to do with the series. not only lack in skill of execution of the development of such as mentioned games but gameplay was poor because they didn't ever really properly use the "boost formula " well enough.
I believe the games they had developed like sonic generations did a good job of implementing boost formula with a mix of the normal and good games were used to playing and seeing around on the market. thus by me saying that I believe its better that the old formula of games and gameplay are good as they stand and more would be welcomed by the fandom. (ast point then I'm posting the comment) sounds like within the first three minutes of your video that you want almost a more fully and primary "boost formula" type game. now you see in games that are good there usually needs to be a secondary figure or point of interest. an only or even mostly boost formula type of sonic game would be boring tedious and get old almost as fast
as sonic can run. so they purposely put parts like boss fights (which would really get old in a boost formula like if every boss fight with all different bosses but the way of defeating it was all the same) or even just simple navigation and over all enjoyment of the World sonic games have made for us. there's good design to games and with sonic games in general its really hard to come up with fresh ideas with a series like this given the mechanics behind it and the world presented to us. history is good to know what works and if the new stuff sonic is making isn't working either in terms of sales then its history needs to be looked at to see what works with sales, gameplay, mechanics of the gameplay, the gimmicks, and the customer feedback and it seems like they are finally starting to listen... SORRY FOR THE FUCKIN ESSAY IN THE COMMENTS IF YOU READ THIS THANK YOUUUU
If they always used the boost formula, it would get old fast
Same could be said about the adventure formula. Maybe they should take turns or something.
Same with relying on Classic Sonic nostalgia
"Mania and its inevitable sequels" Well thats just sadness right there. This guy really under estimated Saga's ability to trash sonic by assuming Mania would get sequals.
it dosen't need one. Sonic superstars is here.
They seriously need to stop relying on nostalgia to play it safe. Sega and Sonic Team are RUNNING out of ideas. Heh, running, Sonic runs. Anyways...why not bring back other franchises Sega?
We need an adventure style game even if it takes place 67 years later where an older wiser Sonic (who knows how to put the beans on it) fights a new generations of villains with the help of his old and new friends.
YEAH PUT THE BEANS ON IT, YEAH
Sonic_171 000x what about Ristar, SPARKSTERS, Knuckles Chaotix,Street oF Rage
I know I want Ristar to return.
Sonic_171 000x RISTAR combines more with the Sonic mania art style then mania itself
I don't get it. lol
I'll have to disagree with you on the first point The "boost formula" (or just Modern Mode because that just sounds weird) was to give something new in Unleashed, but because they obviously had no idea what fans wanted in Sonic games they decided to experiment with the Werehog. When they realized no one liked the Werehog they moved on to Colors which was purely Modern Mode, BUT they fucked it up the ass with 2x's the 2d sections than Unleashed, making the part of the Modern Mode that was attractive to players pointless in comparison.
The thing about Colors is that even though they fixed the Werehog "issue" (because I never cared, I didn't mind it) Players were still complaining about Sonic being in 3d, period. There was no, "Oh this game's alright, but I prefer Classic Sonic more" There was just "Ugh, he was better in 2d only" or "What is this edgy sonic garbage". Literally the fans were so diverse that they had no clue what to do till some genius guy said " I got it! *slaps two Sonic images together and has Classic and modern Sonic". Generations worked, and it quenched both parties, BUT they don't know what to do now. If they're isn't a classic Sonic, people will most likely bitch, if they're isn't a Modern Mode, people will likely bitch. Sonic Lost Worlds was debatebly good (I thought it was fine, not a fan of the style) but it seemed to me that they were trying to mix both modern and classic together which I suppose failed. So now SEGA is stuck.
Forces said "Well shit, don't fix it if it ain't broken..." and I don't blame them, and not that I personally care since its a taste of both worlds again, but SEGA made a smart choice. Sonic fans are fucking nostalgia brats and it utterly pisses me off, that if one thing doesn't go they're way in a Sonic game, its instantly shit. Sonic Unleashed is shit, because HALF the game is Werehog stages (*facepalm*). If someone never knew who Sonic was and played that game, I bet you they'd enjoy it as much as I did. Now with Forces, it was a good call. Yeah I'm tired of seeing Green Hill Zone too, but if they change enough to make me feel like they're trying to build a convincing universe, like Sonic's main world is getting butchered so you go through an old world to save it, I won't mind. Its one thing to rely solely on Nostalgia and another to keep a personality. That said, we're probably gonna see alot of Classic Sonic in the future, but still wishing for that good Modern Mode only game, and I'm always open for more twists in gameplay style.
Amazingly well-written video essay!
I think splitting Sonic between "Classic" and "Modern" was a mistake. It really opened a couple cans of worms; the admittance that they're banking on nostalgia, muddying up the creative space, and so on.
Excellent discussion, fully agreed.
I disagree. 2D sonic stages in Sonic Generations wasnt a gimick. It was fully fleshed out unlike in colors.
Anime Oz And on top of that, they are making brand new levels and putting a ton of work into it. Not a gimmick
And someone else could argue the Werehog was "fully fleshed out" as well...
The Werehog was barebones as hell though and broke the pacing of the game, not to mention those levels dragged on far longer than the normal day time levels.
The boost gameplay results in incredibly fast gameplay which in turn means levels have to be really long to accommodate that. Unleashed's levels felt like long hallways as a result but when Generations was out we had multiple routes which resulted in even more time to create a single level. In order for a game to not end after an hour they needed to add more content and the best way was for the comparatively simply (yet still very well designed) 2D Sonic levels. If they didn't relegate to a different character people would have just complained about modern Sonic having an overabundance of 2D like they did with Colors.
Honestly my biggest problem with Classic Sonic is the nostalgic presence he gives off. If he was a new character with the same gameplay it'd be easier to swallow. In terms of actual gameplay and level design Classic Sonic in Generations is the best "gimmick" Sonic has ever had. It's way more fun than the bad parts of the Adventure games, way more fun than the werehog, it's less disappointing than Colors over-reliance on 2D and it's not as samey as replaying S3&K or even the Advance games with different characters. I'd gladly take a game like Generations with 9 3D stages (and 9 2D ones) than one with only 3D stages but there are like 12 or 13 of them.
I disagree that it was barebones, there were actually a lot of different combos you could pull off once you leveled up the werehog enough. Though I would never say the werehog gameplay is "better", it was certainly more fleshed out than something like God of War tbh.
That doesnt make it not a gimmick tho.
I remember back back in the days of Sonic 4 EP 1, Sonic Team and Sega seemed ADAMANT about never letting classic Sonic into a new game. They basically said in interviews "We don't believe a game that focuses on classic Sonic would click well with today's kids. They want someone taller, more Bugs Bunny-like." They seemed so sure that if they let him into their games they'd tank. My, how things have changed since that time. It feels like stepping into some weird alternate timeline where history played out differently.
NickonAquaMagna You can thank Generations for that
Oh, don't we know it.
how is CLASSIC sonic a gimmick seeing how it was the original
Edgelord Darker He's kinda right tho
No, he's not right. Just because classic sonic is the original doesn't mean it cannot be used as a gimmick.. what the hell is wrong with you?
Yoshi Plays this^
This is actually really good quality, I'm not sure why you aren't more popular.
Great vid man. I share your opinions in absolutely everything you have said. You've stated everything I've been trying to show people for a while now. That Classic no matter how much of a fan base he has. Is being used as a gimmick. He is the equivalent as the werehog as the color power wisps, and eventually the more they rely on him to sell sonic not only does it confuse the fan base on what sonic is but also which sonic is the sonic SEGA wants to advertise? Modern or Classic. Loved the video essay style to this video gonna stay subbed for more content down the road man. Cheers
What you say and what you think your saying are going in 2 different directions, maybe you should try writing down your main points and read them to a friend or family member and see if they can understand where you're coming from, if not go back and rewrite it until it does make sense...
GBgamer I don't know what you are talking about. Most people understand what I'm trying to say. It's all interpretation.
are these the same people who quote you?
Actually I think wisps have immense potential as Mario style powerups like the way they were used in Colors. They don't feel like gimmicks, instead they feel like gameplay opportunities.
I'd agree with you on this as well, but unfortunately, I don't think Vic shares the same "interpretation"...
Nostalgia doesn't mean anything anymore and this is solely SEGA/Sonic Team's fault. Not many people actually managed do do that but those who did cherish that moment when they unlocked Green Hill Zone in SA2 after collecting all those fucking emblems for the first time. I remember how my mind was absolutely blown when i clicked on that Question mark on a map and Green Hill Zone text appeared.This was nostalgia done right. Not only was it actually nostalgic due to not visiting Green Hill Zone pretty much since Sonic 1, but also rewarding as you did had to pretty much 100% the game first. Nowadays Sonic Team slaps Green Hill Zone(Or at least Zone that looks almost identical to it like for example Splash Hill or Sand Hill Zone) in every single game like it's no big deal.
Great video, but I do have something to add; If I'm not mistaken, the 3D Boost formula was also toyed with in the "Storybook" games: Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic and the Black Knight. I could be wrong, though; I didn't play either of those games, and I know for a fact that Rings suffered from the fact that it relied on tilt controls.
I agree in all points. Why the Sonic Team can't do a Sonic game, where only modern Sonic levels are ingame, without any "Specials" and not to much 2D sections?
Just only modern Sonic, boost, homing attack and grinding!
Because boost, homing attack and grinding are the most unnecessary and annoying gameplay elements ever. The more you use them, the more the game sucks. Sonic has always been a "Jump 'N' Run", so you should do two things: jump and run (by yourself, not automatically). It shouldn't be a speedrun simulator anymore. They should restart from Sonic Adventure and take some parts from Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes and do it technically/graphically like the 3D levels of Sonic Generations.
You do know both the Homing Attack and grinding came from Adventure, right? Hell, the Homing Attack was made SPECIFICALLY as quality of life for 3D.
Queron81 You are kinda dumb...
It would just get boring if it was all boost.
No cause maybe you have to dodge something??????
TheMaxer Games You run for hours, thats it. Sure, you have an enemg, but it gets boring after repetition.
The Riddler
you could say that about the classic mega drive gameplay too. "you just press right".
enjoy both styles, the boost is like the classic gameplay plus a few extra moves and in 3D if you think about it.
i prefer classic in forces, it sounds crazy, but all it means to me is more content. it's been 4 years since the last main 3d sonic game, that being lost world, and if this gap between games reoccurs for every future main series title, i'd like to have some extra content that provides more than one play style. Don't get me wrong, i love the boost gameplay and would like to see a game based entirely on it... but as long as the stages are fun to play, i have no problem with classic being "shoehorned" in the game. also, great video, lol.
Sounds like you should find more games to play then!
I mean...what if Classic sonic WASN'T in the game and we got something...I don't know? NEW in the game instead!? :O
I agree on the core principle of your argument, but there's always a question that pops into my mind when this is brought up: Why don't we get Tails? Or Knuckles? Or a couple other Sonic characters instead of Classic Sonic? I think those guys would have a lot more to add to gameplay variety than Classic.
I agree that variety is a good thing, but them using Classic Sonic rubs me off as a cynical marketing decision, like what the guy making the video was saying. Sonic Mania's already going to be providing us our fix for that style, especially since it's coming out on almost all the same systems. Meanwhile, we haven't been able to play as Tails or Knuckles in 3D since Sonic 06 (and even then, only in limited quantities). So without any disrespect, what you've said is something I can't disagree with in concept, but the execution here is heavily flawed in my eyes.
+UpBforVictory We already knew about the 3rd character MONTHS WAY in advance...my point still stands! (Plus I was also referring to Gens as well...classic + modern was NEVER good idea!)
I'd rather see a new idea fail than to see something uninspired, lazy, and just flat out boring. The term "Sonic is dead" is in the eye of the beholder...it will mean different things to different people.
TL;DR I don't see how Sega making stupid desisions justifies them making _slightly_ less stupid desisions as well! :/
Ah okay, well-said i suppose. I mostly thought you where saying they weren't taking any risks with this game.
I love how much Adabat is in the video. The beginning of the end of my attempt at a platinum on Sonic Unleashed. It was at Adabat that I realised I wasn't good enough to do the rest of the Hotdog trials :'(
My thoughts exactly. It's like you've picked every single thought out of my mind here
Sonic fans are never pleased
Jokester 8 STFU
I was extremely pleased with Sonic Generations. I bet I will also be extremely pleased with Sonic Mania when it comes out as well. I also have high hopes for Sonic Forces.
It's because we have so many different kind of Sonic fans...
I, for example, find that the best Sonic games are those between Adventure and Unleashed (maybe I'll also add Colors... and Generations). And yes, Sonic 06 is one of them. I even think 06 and Shadow The Hedgehog are the best two games.
I'd love to see this kind of open-world 3D games where we can play as more than 1 character (no, Classic Sonic doesn't count), and the most important thing is... the transition between games. How did Eggman escape the White Space from Generations?? Never explained. I'd also love to see more deep stories, where we can know more about the past (like in Shadow The Hedgehog). Even Chronicles was great!!
Is that the fans fault or Sega's? Like it's said in this video "the Sonic games are confused and have no identity". If Sega would actually make a GOOD 3D Sonic game then believe you me, the divide between fans will be MUCH smaller.
If there is one thing more stupid than ungrateful sonic fans its sonic fans who'll defend sega and eat any shit they put out
ok. I'm sorry for saying this if I hurt anyone's feelings by saying this, but do u want to know the real problem we r ignoring in sonic forces? it's that people are already saying that the game isn't as good as SEGA says JUST off of a few bits of gameplay. I'm sorry but... the fact that people are already saying the game has issues is just as stupid as how people think Sonic 06 and Rise of Lyric are stupid, and people really think those games are stupid!!! If no one has managed to catch my drift yet, again don't mean to be rude but sorry if I do, lemme put it this way: Never Judge A Book By Its Cover!!!! sure, the game includes classic sonic, modern sonic still has 2D sections, AND there is a new gameplay style, but so what? There are people who have been loving this gameplay style for years so people who r saying the game already has issues, like boom sonic said, I too say, "Shut Your Piehole!!" let SEGA try and plz their audience before u guys just go out saying SEGA isn't gonna do a good job!! I honestly don't care if people might give their personal opinions, but no one has actual EVIDENCE that the game is going to have what they say until SEGA personally reveals it to us. Everyone just do the exact opposite Sonic does, and what SEGA is now finally understanding, and take it slow and wait until we get solid evidence that can support people who say the game might be bad. Who knows, maybe the third gameplay style might be fully 3D, which is what I'm hoping, or it could end up being some "scavenger hunt" thing or something very generic, however, we don't know any of this until SEGA gives the info to us.
blozzybabe2, at least ik someone agrees XD
True, there's nothing wrong with taking a look at the game as a whole when it comes out and then judging the game for what it is
Joseph Leonard, that's what I'm saying, but instead people are already judging the game according to what they have seen already and not as a whole. then they go off saying it already has problems
blozzybabe2, I honestly don't know XD
BLOZZYBABE2, that's just bull crap. sonic will never be owned by Nintendo cuz if it was all of SEGAs work would be useless, and they have been trying to bring up sonic for years.
Really well thought out video and I can safely say I agree on various points you've made.
The only added thing I would inject is Modern Sonic needs to drop the 2D sections entirely. idk if you had that as part of your point that SEGA hasn't really defined Modern Sonic (since I have shitty memory) but yeah 2D sections for Modern Sonic makes ZERO sense if you're going to be adding Classic Sonic in your game. Hell even in general having Modern Sonic in 2D sections always becomes such a hassle and no fun when you're expecting to use boost in fun ways to go fast.
Loved the video! my only criticism would be that some music would have been nice to have in the video since it felt super silent just hearing your voice, but other than that this is a well done video with great points, nice visuals, and good editing.
Interestingly in the context of your point about Mario's pillars, the messaging of Mario we've been getting with Odyssey indicates they view the 3d games in two seperate lines since their hailing this as a return to 64 and Sunshine - 3d mario as sandboxes - away from Galaxy through 3d World - 3d mario as obstacle courses.
...Though given that Sonic survived the team making it not being given nearly enough time to polish for over a decade, culminating but not ending with 06, it can survive a lack of real brand identity for a long time yet.
Aaaand you were right.
The Boost works better in Sonic Advance 2 and 3 (It's actual first debut, BTW), in which you earn the boost by running for an amount of time, or by grabbing enough rings to shorten that length of time to reach the boost.
Robert Walker that's not a boost.
Well at least it's not as broken as how it was used in Sonic Rush.
You hit the nail on the head. You can only rely on the nostalgia crutch for so long before it no longer holds up. While Sonic is not the only one guilty of using nostalgia to get people invested in their games, I'd say they're one of the biggest offenders of this. Heck, I'd say they're even more guilty of this than Nintendo, and they're one of the most notorious at using nostalgia gimmicks.
To me though, what's SEGA's worst sin though is not overdoing nostalgia, but the absolute refusal to do anything really creative and new. with the blue blur and his universe. Games like Sonic Forces only enhance that argument. While it may have a few new features like the new create a new character, the glaring issues of Sonic Generations are still in this game, if not worse. SEGA AGAIN refuses to get the point fans don't want to see Sonic's friends reduced to just being cheerleaders or talking heads. I know not everyone likes Sonic's friends, but I think most,if not all would agree they most should be playable if they are in the game. Why else are they there? Just to say Sonic can do it and don't get hit by enemy fire? I think that has long overstayed its welcome.
The sad thing is I'd say Sonic Forces only added more problems to the series, not less. First of all, why is Sonic now running through enemies like they're made of tin foil? Is that really supposed to make the game fun just running in a straight line with no input from the player other than steering. And that's not taken into account when you do have a part where you can defeat enemies on a platform, they're defeated without hardly breaking a sweat. Seriously, what gives? That's not fun. That's boring!
Secondly, the new character mode REALLY looks half-assed and lazy. While it's nice to see characters having different features and attacks, is SEGA so lazy they can't even give them generic speaking lines, let alone have female characters actually look like female characters? Not just flat chested males with eyelashes? I get the fact they don't want big boobs, but could they make the females one look A LITTLE curvy to stand out compared to the male ones?
Ok, sure, the last bit is a nitpick, but quite frankly, Sonic Forces to me has more problems than it did right, which to me is a shame. I'd love to actually see a Sonic game where you could play numerous Sonic characters together on one map and battle a slew of tough, but not too challenging Eggman robots. THAT is what Sonic Forces should have been about. This is to me is just Sonic Generations 2 without the name. Congrats, SEGA. You still don't get it and I doubt you ever will too. -.-
excellent video. loved the diction, and the main points all backed up well. high quality. keep it up!
And you were wrong. Sonic Forces is a game-representation of clickbait. It has amazing graphics, but plays like shit. You can just hold down one button throughout an entire level (the boost button) and sometimes, you don't even need to push a button!
No matter one you do you can never please a sonic fan
slyark52 "you can never please a sonic fan"
What, just make the game the fan likes,
Once you make it a plural then you can't.
Hibub Games that's the problem.
This is true. The classic Sonic being stretched in Nostalgia so thin might be the biggest problem ever for this.
Maybe they should take everything that feels like recycled & replace it with more future/ modern things.
IDK enough of the series to be 100% sure. But I know once or twice, Fans have spoken better plots.
Came in skeptical, but have left completely on side with everything you said. Well articulated, well reasoned and well structured argument. Could have published this as an essay and it wouldn't have been out of place. Good job man :)
Mania was forced to stand on old zones? I thought it was a celebration of Sonic's past
I agree with you buttttttt
I'll still buy it
Or4ANGEpm so?
...I feel sorry for you...
your part of the problem.
taku uzamaki Not everyone knew Forces would suck. And Sega is trying to avoid '06 entirely nowadays, even some of the good parts, despite the game itself selling well.
"your part of the problem." part of the problem because he wants to buy a game he's interested to?
I'd like us to have a pillar similar to the Adventure games. Not necessarily Adventure 3 (although I wouldn't object to that), but a pillar with fully 3D Sonic games as opposed to the only 3D games being on-rails.
I really enjoyed this discussion. Keep up the good work!
I don't even agree with everything presented here, but the video is of such a high quality that I have subscribed. Great job, look forward to more videos
The stuff you're saying in this video is so true it hurts. Sonic needs direction and quality control. I love the series, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't see any questionable decisions by Sega in regards to the series overall.
The main problem with Sonic today is that they're having trouble finding an identity to him, when they had some ages ago.
*Classic Age =* We're gonna fuck up mario! Lets go with 2d platforming
*Dreamcast Age=* It's time we adapt to the jump. Sonic is gonna be his own fast paced, but exploration adventure series!
*Modern Age =* Eh we got Boost.... but to make sure, lets just keep throwing shit on the wall, and see what sticks.
I just took macroeconomics and as a Sonic fan all of this makes so much sense. Thanks for the vid!
I rather have expansive level design without the boost than a long linear boost to win straight line.
The boost style did have two full games dedicated to it - Sonic and the Black Knight and Sonic and the Secret Rings. Both games basically feel stale when you play them because they had nothing BUT boost.
"Oh look, some robot is going to come in front of me and disable one lane at a time."
"Oh, WOW, now two robots are going to disable lanes in front of me"
It can't carry a game on it's own because there are a finite number of things that they can really throw at you:
- A group of enemies to homing attack across
- Something that closes down one or more of your lanes and causes damage if you're in it
- Something you have to slide under to progress
- A big cinematic jump at the end of a long strip of track
etc
It's a neat style in short bursts, but play either of the two aforementioned games and you'll see it can't carry a full game.
You couldnt boost in those games. There werent even robots, wtf??
“I feel overwhelmingly positive about sonic forces, and I think it’s going to be a great game.”
Well. . . That sentence aged poorly.
Sonic Generations had in my opinion a brilliant formula for level design, rewarding you with higher, faster paths the better you got at the game. Even though half the game was a different gameplay style, they refined the system to make it the best it could be.
Forces on the other hand tried to make it accessible to a fault by not focusing on that kind of level design, instead just automating a lot of things.
You're right but my main issues with Gens was the DLC and the how there are only 9 Modern levels.
Damn! These two Sonic videos you made pretty much nailed down the problems that Sonic is going through. :) Seriously, you have so much potential to be a good content creator and I mean it. Keep up the great work dude.
Why why WHY would you EVER want a PURE boost formula Sonic game? Do you actually want to pay for that as an entire game and play through it!?
BlueAmpharos I mean, Sonic Rush exists so
Yep.
That metal gear solid moment is alot like the scene in Jurassic World where they find the old Jurassic park jeeps and equipment. Beautiful
I can not disagree with you. Infact, i've always kinda hoped sonic team would start branching out and start making different versions of games instead of combining all of them together. Imagine as you said (almost like how it used to be way back when where sonic had his main games, his sports/racing games, his party games, his handheld games(could become stand alone classic sonic games. handheld, phone, etc), sonic had his own stand alone games. There would be something there for every fan. shit maybe they could make a chao garden stand alone game for once.
I didn't mind the nostalgia in generations and even now in forces, but...i dont think its gonna work as well a third time. I'm happy to see them finally stick to something that works (boost type gameplay) and i hope they plan on refining it even more in the future. I hope they decide to make different types of games in the future too.
13:21 unfortunately, we were all duped :( it still baffles me just how far backwards Sonic Team went in every aspect from Generations to Forces. And i dont care that there were mostly newbie staff; at the end of the day, it doesnt excuse a mediocre game
Sonic team:Are you sure we should put it classic sonic again?
Sega : Of course I mean how would you not like classic sonic along with Boost game play and the new ability to make OCs with different game play styles the fans will absolutely love it to death we will finally be able to please everyone.
Fans: Why is classic sonic here, ugh more boost game play, we already have 1 full 2d sonic coming out, why isn't this like adventure 2, the oc seems very limited, make another boom!
Penro How about the people that liked the comment😂
When they showed the trailer for Sonic Forces at one of the conventions, every one was so hyped that Classic Sonic is in it.
The Kid Spot no actual sonic fan wants another boom
Nobody wants another Sonic Boom.
Sonic Adventure 2 was a lot of fun and had great playback value. Aside from unlocking Super Sonic, Colors had the most boring replay outside of Unleashed and Generations.
You got some good points. Hoping the split reception of Mania and Forces teaches Sega and Sonic Team what they've been doing wrong or just overlooking, and lets them move forward in a positive way.
Title:Sonic Forces | The Problems we are Ignoring Me: Wow...He wont give Sonic a chance to get back to his roots...
Classic Sonic is there only because of this shit fanbase. Unfortunately most of sonic fans think classic sonic is the only good gameplay. And the main reason why Colors and Generations wasn't criticized like unleashed, is because they focus a lot on 2d levels. I honestly agree with everything you said, but SEGA can't really do a game only with boost, because they know adding classic sonic will make those fans considering buying the game
So nostalgia pandering. That's gonna run dry soon.
Thiago52192 Issue is... that's the one time Sonic was solid. And instead of working on 3D Sonic because of their idea of never giving an identity to modern era.
it's the other way around. modern sonic fans are the ones that think boost to win is the only way worth playing. this entire video (well, i assumne. i stopped the video around 2:30) is him crying because he wants only one type of gameplay, with one pacing, and one focus. in other words he wants a terrible game, and good thing he's not a dev.
the 2d sections are great pace breakers and classic sonic isn't a fucking gimmick, it's a different playstyle. i love all "three" gameplays, and they mesh well together. there's a reason generations is the highest rated 3d sonic.
except the classic sonic mechanics of Generations and Colours are fucking terrible attempts at emulating the 2d mechanics.
this is something that has to stop.
it's impossible to recreate them without making the controls janky as all hell.
Thiago52192 Ikr! It's so irritating. Love sonic, hate most of the fan base
You were right! It does suck!
The thing is, the boost gameplay, while fun, runs counter to the actual sonic formula they've had since sonic 1: a platformer. By using the boost formula, it stops really being about platforming and becomes more about just remembering where all the traps are and jumping when you need to to get the best time. That's something you want to add only in doses because it's not fun all throughout. Also, there was one game that did the boost formula all throughout, and did it pretty well. Sonic and the secret rings. Speed Break was more or less the precursor to boost, and it was the main mechanic for the entire game. It got held back by being made alongside sonic 06, but at least it's more playable than sonic 06.
So the Genesis games weren't about memorization? The games built on speed, that fans will rabidly say that speed is a reward for skill, and memorization? Because with an average screen size and high horizontal speed, guess what spikes I'll only have half a second to react to. Guess what death pit only appears for a glimpse. I have to memorize the Genesis levels if I want to have fun.
Man this is crazy educational thx man you earned a sub.
This is such a weird point to bring up as a negative. The idea that games with two different play styles is bad because you fear it won't be refined in either way, is just weird. It's not an immediate problem simply down to the fact that it may actually prove to be a great contrast like it was in generations. This video runs with the narrative that the mechanics in modern sonic aren't fully developed, or that 2d platforming is somehow a negative in colours for varying the use of boost. I'm going to help you out here with a question, what would happen if you ate the same type of pizza for every meal? Quick answer (aside from getting very fat) you would get pretty bored, pretty fast. Variety is the spice of life my friend. eg. sometimes in uncharted I'm climbing things, sometimes in uncharted I'm shooting things, sometimes I'm driving things, and it's all consistent with the theme. Sonic having a classic and modern style is such a cool love letter to fans, and I find it ironic that you mention an constantly unimpressed demographic, yet you ultimately place yourself there for thinking pretty much the same thing. I remember when I used to play sonic games pre-internet, and I didn't have to know this community mindset existed... and I'll stop there before it becomes an old man speech. What I will say is that I withhold negatives and positives before I play something.
jisouserious same thing as what I thought
jisouserious Yeah, I think the lack of boost gameplay is the only thing saving those games. I mean, the 2D level design isn't great, but it FAR exceeds boost level design.
TheChillMethod
Well said! I couldn't disagree more, but well said all the same!
Variety may be the spice of life, but it's also risky as all hell. True, it may keep the experience fresh and interesting, but intricate level design, multiple characters with varying abilities, and power ups that augment said abilities can also do that, and runs a lower risk of turning people off.
As for your Pizza analogy, I think it's a wee bit off base. For one thing, it doesn't factor in the fact that Sonic can take multiple gameplay styles in multiple titles, and for another, YOU DIDN'T SAY WHAT KIND OF PIZZA(if it's bacon+pepperoni I am absolutely on board with eating nothing else, fatty day everyday!). I think it'd be a bit more discerning to say that keeping it strictly to the Boost formula in Forces would be like ordering nothing but cheese Pizza every time you got Pizza. Of course you'd get sick of it, hence why you experiment with different toppings(characters, power ups, etc.) to achieve that sought after variety. But in the event you're not feeling a Pizza, you order the Pineapple Upside-down cake that is Sonic Mania. But what happens when you mix the two? You get Pineapple on a pizza, and nobody wants that.
Or maybe you do, but I DON'T. And FYI, it was that way in Generations as well, I didn't care much for the Classic gameplay, and thus never boot up my copy of that game for anything more than the modern levels. If I want to play Classic Sonic, I'll order that Pineapple Upside-down Cake.
In conclusion, variety is most certainly the spice of life… for a franchise. Because you're right, if I could only order the Pizza that is Modern Sonic, the Cake that is Classic Sonic, The… Chili-dog(?) that is Adventure Sonic, or(shudders) the Dog-shit Taco that is Sonic Boom, I'd quickly find a restaurant with more options. But I feel that crossovers need to be done in HIGHLY controlled capacities, so that even if people shockingly continue wanting different things out of their local Sonic's, they can walk away feeling like they've paid money for exactly what they want, nothing less and nothing more.
Yo man, this was a really good watch! Got nothing else to say because I think you summed up your thoughts great. I gotta see more vids from you man. This one was one of the most well done vids in the community in awhile for me and was straight to the point.
Lol, wasn't expecting Don Draper in this. Great video!
Holy shit the Mad Men quote struck a chord beyond this vid. Smart choice to make your points.
Wow, great video dude. I agree with most if not all of the points you mentioned here. I made a video like this on my channel called "My Problem with Sonic" and it basically goes over majority of the points here. I was extremely disappointed in the reveal trailer when Classic Sonic was shown, meaning that we would once again have to deal with what we got with Generations which wasn't even that long ago. I really hope that they listen to fans and don't milk Classic Sonic and never let Modern Sonic have his own games. By the way, what mic are you using, it has a lot better quality than mine.
blazefan519 Thanks so much, glad you liked it :) I'm using a Blue Yeti mic (standard not pro), they run for around $120.
At least there's Mania. That game is, so going run circles round Sonic Forces...
Except not everyone cares about mania. I didn't grow up with the classics, so mania does absolutely nothing for me.
+Blazefan519 Then why are you not angry at Sonic Team trying to superficially shoehorn 2-D segments that negate the whole point of the Modern Sonic being in 3-D? Seems as if they're doing you a disservice, by trying to force classics formulas that I and many others grew up with into brand new games. Either-way, it's no secret that Mania will wipe the floor with Forces, because Forces doesn't have a vision.
In all honesty I grew up with the classics and I loved them at the time but Mania does absolutely nothing for me, I feel like we passed that era a long time ago and it looks and feels more or less like a fan game that's being sold, I grew to love the Adventure games a lot more (not just because of the Chao garden but I'll gladly take it too), I'm not trying to bitch here and I'm glad SEGA are finally doing it because fans have been asking for it for so long, I'm just not the targeted audience, maybe if it was actually HD with the modern designs, something similar to Sonic Advance only in HD, that'd be a day one purchase for me.
A shame you don't have more subs. Very good and interesting video. Keep it up.
Wow man. That's one clean presentation
I like the idea of having three pillars for Sonic!
Classic,Modern,and Experimental Sonic games would be awesome!
Wait... classic sonic can boost??? 1:40
This video was not only incredibly informative, but also completely understandable.
Thank you.
Sonic Generations' "near perfect" execution of the boost formula? Sonic Generations executed the boost formula perfectly.
Take out the 2D sections and the dash panels, then we'll talk.
I honestly don't see the negativity behind the 2D sections in Gens other than them not needing to be there for Modern
This is actually a good analysis, but you need to add 1 more factor to the equation: the difficulty. They need to make a more challenging Sonic, with new gameplay mechanics. One idea I had it was to add time quests.
Thanks for doing this video.
Sonic Unleashed day stages were pretty brutal on their own.
so your saying that classic sonic is making the game bad? well in sonic generations everyone loved that game mostly because of classic sonic who you say is making the game bad. now with sonic mania that game is all about classic sonic. it isn't that SEGA can't be bothered to make a full 3d game, it's that everyone wanted classic sonic so SEGA gave them what they asked for and how they wanted it.
Mega Lucario that's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that Classic Sonic being used as a gimmick is making the game unfocused, and it being unfocused is the issue.