Three Phase Commercial Electric Vehicle Charging Installation
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- čas přidán 7. 10. 2020
- Three Phase Commercial Electric Vehicle Charging Installation
Join me as I install a Two Zappi 22kW Electric Vehicle Charging Points for a commercial client under the workplace charging scheme.
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#EVCharging #ArtisanElectrics #ElectricianLife - Věda a technologie
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Adaptable box inside the building with the armoureds glanded off and cables brought straight through to the back of the chargers 👍
Agreed
Great Job Dual Zappi installed. You made it! BIG BIG THUMB UP! Cheer!
This looks like such a fun job. Really inspiring. Hopefully i can be as skilled as you one day!
Enjoyed your video, I’ve got a three phase ICS 22kw charger to install this week, & was planning to fit a adaptable box on the inside to terminate the SWA & take the cables through the back of the charger
Lovely job Jorden.
Wow almost 30k mate, good effort!!!!
Thanks!
Great vid as always Jordan, I bet they can kick out some power.
Yeah they can! Thanks
Nice job and video
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Hi Jordan I wish we could have had the opportunity to isolate the dis/board . Very seldom was it the case , regularly had to work on 3 phase live boards . Shutting off part of a say a police station was never an opinion . 🤣 Nice neat job , I bet you were glad the mains was so close . Cary on like this and we’ll have to start calling you the zapey man 🤗 Best wishes and kind regards Mike in the U.K.
When I was an apprentice ( many moons ago ) working on banks/ schools etc one electrician I spent 2 yrs with put his arm up the back of the bus bar chamber to get cables 🧐 he was the best sparky I worked for new everything and could do everything but that wouldn’t happen today lol
what about glanding off in a box inside and passing the main core through the wall into the back of the zappis?
morenormal yeah that could have worked
Or just drilling through the back and using twin+earth instead of SWA?
@CryptoArnie Excuse my naivety, what's the difference between Steel Wired Armoured and SWA?
another interesting video! great to see these EV chargers being installed! Jordan - sorting out the electrical world - one installation at a time! what a hero! looking forward to your next video buddy!
Henley block as DNO earth terminal is usual for modern PME supply. Insulated DNO earth terminal required by some DNOs if not by ESQCR as PME MET is effectively a live conductor under fault conditions as is the neutral of the supply and therefore could rise to a hazardous potential under fault.
good thought, hadn't considered that but you're right
Nice job,hope everything to normalize soon,i want to give a try E engineering, it's fun,I do Diy solar installs in rural parts mostly in Kenya but I have decided to further my studies... 0 restrictions on Diy installs here
Dennis Kipngeno cool
Nice bro,,,,
good video Jordan, can you do a video of risk assessment and things to take into account when installing EV chargers please, i.e. other earth potentials and rodding etc.
Great video mate
Great suggestion!
Ultimate channel ?
Isolating the full board you should come into my world man. Very seldom possible
Same here maybe he's scared 😂
@@ashbashbaby2 It's not about being scared, but being safe.
Hey Artisan you’re awesome I have watching your videos on CZcams now then they’re very helpful as electrician even do I don’t work as electrician now because when I finished NVQ 3 in 2002 I try to work but unfortunately they keep asking me experience which I don’t have and give up but since I start watching your video I am starting thinking to work as electrician doing my 18 edition, inspection and test I want work for volunteers maybe two days a week let’s me know thanks
I'm subbed
Nice to see! Thanks for the video.
Those phase colours are just bizarre by the way. We still use red yellow blue here
Thanks! Which country are you in?
@@artisanelectrics South Africa. Good old British colours from the past.
We still use the old round three pin sockets too.
It wasn’t clear how one zappy controlled the other. Nice vid
Great video again Jorden. Just one thing Myenergi are so strict on keeping the IP65 rating of there Zappi’s intact, I think if you have a problem with water ingress in the master they won’t repair or replace it because you haven’t used a gland on the flexible conduit.
Good tip thanks
Why dont you use the brother label marker to make labels for the cabin, instead of the handwritten "zappi 1"?
Happened to us the other day. Temp label with a sharpie... came back at the end of the job to do it with the brother.
Have also had it where the damn tape runs out halfway through labelling an installation! drives me mad ... so I now have at least 2 spares of each type of tape in the van! (hint in case you didn't realize... unlike some of the earlier labelmakers, the generic tapes work fine with the new Brother labellers... and are way cheap on the bay of E)
Putting the earths into the Henley block is a good idea on a PME system as most people assume there won’t be any voltage present, but there could be in the event of a lost neutral or transient earth voltages from neighbouring properties. Always good practice to stick a clamp meter around the earth to check for any leakage or stray current. #e5 posted on Instagram a while ago with 49A on the earth in one of the installations they were testing😱
A bit off subject but thought you might know. If the mcb that controls a surge device trips, does that mean the installation isn’t protected ?
Video does not show your connections at the distribution board, so is there phase rotation or did you just connect both directly by the phase markings? You should rotate wallbox phases, so when there are multiple 1 phase cars charging, they wont all be on the same phase. Now there might be a situation where two cars with 7 kW chargers go over the main supply limit, their power would be restricted, but L2 and L3 have still 50 amps to go. Someone advised to do phase rotation on the db end, so that if some clueless electrician changes that wallbox, they dont have to mind about it and just connect phases normally. After all, it is way more obvious at the board, where you can usually see all the wallbox wires at once.
That was a great representation of a install of a 3 phase charger.
I dont think customers realise how much goes into installing chargers, I think they just think oh yeah just connect a cable up between the two.
Some lovely decisions there too - drilling on the angle to get a nice sweet on the SWA externally as well as not going direct into the back of the Zappi.
Just out of interest did you consider Hi-Tuf cable from Doncaster? Its not that much cheaper than swa but just nicer to work with and a little more plyable. Give the shortish and out the eay run so to speak thought it would have been an option for ya.
Thumbs up.
Thanks!
Hello Jordan,
Did you notify the DNO before the installation?
Just revisited this video out of interest. As i turns out the supply would have needed a type A RCD upfront as the device within the charger resembling a type A rcd doesn’t comply with the requirements .I guess it was a case of MCB to a 3-phase Type A rcd unit external to the board and then onto the charger per set up. 🤷♂️
I am not a skilled electrician but I always thought you need to have a swan neck on a external cable before diving into a wall i.e. can the rain not run into the wall if its hitting the armoured?
Drill the hole at an angle and silicone it is perfectly fine - drip loops look terrible 🤣😶
By the way, I saw another guy talking about three phase chargers and rotating the phases of you have multiple chargers in case there are cars that only charge at 7kw (i.e. single phase).
He suggested this so that the first phase doesn't become overloaded.
What are your thoughts?
I was wondering because the same could apply in my street with the houses. Many are three phase (only 4 of 23 are single phase on the two incoming feeds).
Am I right in thinking the Zappi is the only charger that currently conforms to Ident 5? Hence no need for an earthing rod on a three phase installation
Is there any kind of consumer units for outbuildings that feature pen fault protection so you don't have to install earth rod
Check out the Matt:E box or the ones by Viridian. They sit after the consumer unit but give isolation and PEN protection. I’ve been looking myself recently and you’re looking about £130 for these boxes.
Not a spark here, if you come directly in the back of the Zappi, do you need to use a SWA cable or could you have used a standard cable?
Could have used NYY cable, but probably didn't know the exact site layout so brought along SWA as a safe bet.
could have easily done a couple of nice printed labels for the DB seeing as you already had your Brother printer out.
Are these 7.2kw chargers? What sort of cost roughly for this for a business installation? Appreciate pricing will be specific to each location but a very rough idea on cost would be great.
Have you got a link for where you buy your consumer units from and do you have a discount code?
In three phase the detection of a broken PEN is actually much easier than it is on a single phase installation. The voltage between every line and the PEN should be 230V (+/-10%) and 400V between the lines. In case of a broken PEN the voltages between the lines won‘t be 400 or 230 between the lines and the neutral anymore. The voltage between a line and a broken neutral/PEN will be free floating between 0 and 400V. In three phase that‘s easier to detect for a safety mechanism.
Thnks
Why would voltage between lines change with a broken PEN conductor do you mean if the line loads are unbalanced?
I've had the misfortune of a stolen neutral at the transformer for my street a few years ago.
So all earthing and neutrals in all feeds were no longer connected to the transformer. Only the phases were.
At one point, the one phase here read 5v and two others were near 415v.
But phase to phase didn't change, stayed at 415v.
The interesting thing is we waited all night for the repair with it like that, and not once did anyone in any house get a shock from any earthed metal even when bathing. It was like a pseudo IT System of sorts.
All nice till the end when marker pen used to write on dist board. Get a label printer like bundy10 and label it car charger left.
Andy Kirwan he does usually print labels but I imagine he wrote it on this one as the rest of the DB was hand written.
Maybe zappi manufacturer could make a sunken hole in the back of the case so a flanged connector could be installed from the back .from your videos you seem to have good contact with the zappi people.
Hey guys, I know this is an old video but hey 😂 what cable are you using to extend the CT’s
Standard in Germany, even residentials install ALL have three phase power!
Nice
I think in the future large homes (3 bed room detached and bigger ) in the UK are going to be 3 phase, particularly if we want to phase out Gas heating and more and more people are going to have EVs , solar and batteries.
@@patdbean I can't see that happening, I had my NIC visit today and he said the network does not have the capacity, he attended a meeting with the network, and they said the capacity is not there.
Plus electric heating is too expensive, I pay around 3p a unit for gas and about 16p for electric its a no brainer.
I have 4 vehicles in my house, if they were all electric what happens then, for me electric is not the silver bullet people think it is.
@@acelectricalsecurity how can the grid "not have the capacity "? Demand hit an all-time high of 60.xGW in the winter of 2010. And has never been much over 50GW ever since. And remember flexible tariffs like "agile occtepus " will stop people charging cars between 4-8pm by charging 25p+/kWh and by charging 7p or less between 11pm and 6am. And has even been known to go negative. Download their app to check live pricing for yourself.
@@acelectricalsecurity this video shows how V2G works " today". Between 4 and 8pm they are not drawing from the grid they are sending power to the grid. czcams.com/video/7h9EecmLatY/video.html
Can you configure a 3ph Zappi to function on single phase?
7:59 what drill do you use? Great work as always 👍
He uses the Makuta dhr242 Hammer drill I think.
hi i am a new electrician. Interesting with DNO 13.8 kva requirements. Was the factory more or less than 13.8 kva and how did all go... thankyou i have a job coming up and struggling about MD and kva.of my factory .sorry
Where do you buy your Zappi Chargers? I am interested in buying 2
Strange place to install them. Is there space for two vehicles to park and charge at the same time?
I would have probably used NYY and back entry. But I’m not slating your work because it’s still lovely stuff !
also, it’s easy to say “I would of” while watching a video.
But different in the real world where you probably didn’t know how you were going to run the cable in the first place and bought SWA for it 👌🏼
As always Jordan, nice work
I think we all just automatically select SWA, when really we don't need it all the time, we just get SWA, out of habit.
Love NYY it’s the way forward in the right circumstances
kevin pickett I’ll be using it next week 👌🏼 May even get a video of that 👍🏼
@@Cablesmith yeah, we do a lot of NYY if it's all surface, it's smaller for the same size and easier to handle. For sheds and stuff, NYY in plastic conduit altho odd, can be neat.
TheChipmunk2008 while we are on the subject, do you happen to know the size of P clip I will need for 2.5mm 3 core NYY ? 😄 save me buying 400 sizes to get the right one
What's the rules on having this so close to what looks like a fire escape ?
No rules about that
Yep. Looks tight to get one car between the fire escape and the ramp, let alone two! Presumably the client's responsibility though?
@@richardalderton1047 Yeah, plus trip hazard from the charging cables. Also wondering if it's a bit fiddly for coiling the cables back on to the Zappis with them being so close together, which might encourage the cables to be left on the ground, again trip hazard from the fire exit.... but of course we can't see the whole lay of the land.
Well it's in London, and London fire brigade like to have an input in our regs, so maybe check with them 😂😂
@@richardalderton1047 welp there are 2 parking bays already planned out, I am sure thats not the problem. Then again tripping hazard might be a problem
Have you ever worked in a fission and fusion reactor or mod or airport or oil rig or atc?
No!
@@artisanelectrics then youre not an ultimate electrician 😎
😂
Question. 1) Are these still current models?. 2) Can someone just come up and plug their car in?. How do you know someone is using the charger? How is it activated?. Can someone just pull up on your drive and plug their car in?. We are looking to get these for our business for outside on our forecourt. How does the customer get charged for using the charging point?. How do we know how much they are using & how do we know what to charge them a fee of?...
Do you have surge protection installed on the AC and DC side of the EV chargers? That’s important. Wow and someone put a schedule in for the DB - take note electricians this should be standard.
These do not ouput dc power, it is just normal ac out. The actual charger is in the car
A schedule is standard in commercial installs, no special surge protection needed.
I have also heard that some car manufacturers are limiting charging (car has its own inbuilt ground resistance monitor) because of ground resistance going above a certain level which can happen in warmer, and dryer conditions. Maybe Jordan you have seen this issue come up?
Yes that’s right
Yes that’s right some vehicles like the Renault Zoe won’t charge unless the Zs is lower than say 50 ohms
Hey Jordan, great informative video. I was wondering what's your opinion on using NYY cable instead of armour. When comes to running cable underground obviously SWA is the only solution unless it's otherwise protected, but when comes to surface mounting NYY could be better option??? Let me know please what you think. Thanks.
3 phase to zappy then ?
The place between emergency exit door and that gangway doesn't seem to be the best choice if I Imagine two vehicles parking and charging there.
Came to say the same thing. That second charger is gonna force people to park right outside the exit.
Would tend to agree. Two chargers side by side looks aesthetically pleasing but neglects the fact that two vehicles might not be able to park conveniently in the same place. One of the chargers will necessarily have to have an extra long cable unless they park top and tail.
If that’s what the customer specced though then *shrug*
I’m not an electrician so excuse my ignorance . Why do you need to use armoured for everything ? Can’t you just use metal trunking (or something else suitable) on other side of wall and use regular cable instead?
your right you could use that method. its just the extra cost over armoured cable of installation time and materials. in this situation installing 50x50 metal trunking in that small cupboard would be a ball ache. Its also a decision for the client if Jordan gave that option. As a commercial install i doubt they were bothered.
Yeah that’s right there are many ways to do the same job
Ok, thanks for reply - I wasn’t sure if it was perhaps regulation as I’ve only ever seen them done in armoured cables.
@@artisanelectrics If these Zappis were single phase, is there a rule that would prevent the use of 6mm2 T&E if there is no external cable run?
Ho7rnf cable is an option.
9:48 Oooh flexi-conduit 😆😆😆
🤣
flexy con. Did you get that from Nick Bundy
Very nice, neat install. Love the symmetry. Do we get a free Zappi for subscribing 🤔😀?
Joe Postle haha thanks you wish!
Just a quick thought of interest, what was the board furthest on the right nearest the outside wall (workshop only or some kind of ‘dedicated’ board). Just curious to why you didn’t connect to that?
The manufacturer actually recommends a 4 pole MCB on a 22kw system and 2 pole on a single phase system as per the data sheet.
Hmmm I’ve not seen that version before...
@@artisanelectrics www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/site/assets/files/1344/zappi_datasheet.pdf
Near the bottom under Installation Requirements. Guess the 40A is 400x1.733x40 to give more space but there aren't many vehicles using the full 22. Not sure about the 2pole and 4pole, could be advising that RCBO's are used, as live/lives and neutral disconnected with an rcbo and S type?
What's the charge time on the 3 phase compared with single phase ?
Single phase 11 hours, 3 phase usually around 4 hours (Edit: on average, seen single take longer and 3 phase take less - vehicle dependent).
Depends on the car, a Zoe can take all 22kW on 3-phase, a model 3 will charge at 11kW on 3 phase vs 7.2kW on single phase, however for a commercial site like this its much better to have vehicles charging 3 phase, more efficient too.
Yeah it really depends on the vehicle and battery size
Model X can charge at 22kW as well but not many other vehicles can
A ZE40 Zoe (41kWh battery) takes about 6 hours on single phase and 2 hours on 3 phase so about 3x faster (as you might expect). 22kW charging is rare, only the Renault Zoe, some early Tesla model X’s with an upgrade and Smart cars support it. The earlier “Q” model Zoes also supported 43kW 3-phase charging but that is only available on rapid chargers.
You could just use hi tuff cable and not worry about armour...
I've had to use henley (ok actually niglon) single pole blocks as a MET before... usually when the existing MET block only allows 2x16mm cables. The ones I have now are 6x 35mm2 terminals (min 4mm), so works quite well. Also the lid allows a nice 'safety electrical connection' label :)
You could always use the NYY cable, instead of SWA
SWA is safer outside but here yeah he should have used it since there would be no contact with the outside
Nyy is the way forward
Tuf sheath from Doncaster cables are the way forward
Just for curiosity... I was arguing the other day with another spark about the cross section of the conductor we should use for a 22kW 3ph car charger - clipped direct. I know everyone likes to go exaggerate with safety and be weeeell on the safety side. I even checked into the on-site guide and I believe (know) I’m right but... I’m saying a 4mm 5 core is enough. He is saying 6mm 5 core.
4mm 5 core would probably fine on a short run like this
Jordan, Are you an affiliated zappi installer or is this a personal choice of unit? Also Is the zappi overall cheaper than other units when you take into account the extra pen sensing and type A rcd cost?
It’s my personal choice I can fit any unit I like but Zappi is best on the market at the moment and when you factor in safety features it is competitive on price
sorry to be a pedant but that's not the incoming gas, you're pointing to the supply out of the meter that the consumer is responsible for. the flexi on the left side is the incomer.
Now for the important question - what was for lunch?
At the (nominal) 400v 32 Amp would be 22.14 Kw, so no headroom, I would say 40Amp type B curve !
3 × 32A × 240V = 23kW
On European breakers the headroom is above the nominal value, not below like with American ones.
@@djod1751 Incorrect as there is a 120 degree phase shift, the nominal voltage in the UK is 230 V +10% - 6% single Phase and 400V +10% -6% three phase. the way it is calculated on a 3 phase supply is Volts x Amps x 1.73!
@@CrazySparkie63 👍
here in California it will not passed inspection.....
Gland the units first then widen the hole in the wall and fix.
Could of glanded inside and taken cable into back of zappy.
You need a Brother label printer m8
Couldn't you just put on gloves and eye protection and install the breaker on a live circuit?
Lol
9:45 Nick Bundy jizzing his panties
Did you steal the Flexi from "Me and Adam"?
Yeah they had some left over from a job 😂
Do you mean Adam and I? haha
Bundy10!
@@farmersteve129 haha, I placed an order through expert electrical last week then had to cancel and re order due to a shortage of the mini RCBO'S. The problem is, I forgot to put the discount code in second time around! Dammit!
Oops!
I do wish people would stop saying TN-C-S is the same as PME ... they are not the same! ... similar but definitely not the same.
How much is 22kw zappi?
£750 ish
Biggest mistake of the EV charging standard was deciding to connect the supply earth to the chassis of the car, but we are where we are....
I think in this country we try to over complicate things, apparently in some European countries they don't bother if it's a PME supply, they don't use rods.
But realistically what's the chance of the network loosing the neutral, the car plugged in and someone touching the car, those have to be long odds.
Anthony charles both very true comments
@@acelectricalsecurity The main risk is from the building trade where underground cables are inadvertently dug up. That happens quite frequently which is why we earth to water and gas pipes and the latest regs cover this risk.
@@corrigenda70 don't get me started on the IET, they couldn't produce an error free book if their lives depended on it, the only thing they can get right is how to extract around a £100 every few years for a book that has very few changes, robbing gets
Nick bundy has some lovely knee pads 😝
instead of calling it Flexi Conduit maybe we could call it Bundy Ducting?
Bundy tube.
did you really say the ultimate?
Yeah lol 😂
no earth rods this time
Where is your earth rod using supply earth if neutral in supply is broken further down road neutral can become live making earth and car live
The Zappi has built in PEN Fault Detection so no earth rod or external PEN Device needed.
How close is the electrics to the gas I guess you have a flexible tape measure so you think you can get away with it... LOL 🤣 set your standards low enough and your tolerance wide enough and anything goes
No rain loop, they'll leak in...
Shame you can't just pair them with each other and not need the hub
you can do this, you can also pair it with an eddi if needed and no hub (i've done this) - hub is required for the grant though i believe to make it 'smart' (someone will correct me if i'm wrong)
Residential will become problematic as more households will have more than one EV car, then what?
Shaun Ollerton they don’t need to be on charge all the time. We have two Renault Zoes and share a single charger, unless you need a full battery every day it’s unlikely to be a problem. A home charger can supply 7kW an hour which works out to about 30+ miles for most EVs.
@@havocgeneral MMM, I doubt your experience so is going to be the norm, high mileage workers car and say a work van they will need near full charge, you can't keep stopping during the day and find a charge point to make up the lack of charging at home.
oh so it's not acceptable, I'd better stop watching then.
Fix the sound!
What’s wrong with it?
Can we stop calling them chargers please.