I agree! A lot of memorable moments in RPGs only repeat once just to be remembered. Other genres tend to overuse and have ideas and characters overstay their welcome
Well, more like 20 hours of content, of which 10 hours is required to reach the end of the game and the other 10 hours is optional (which is the case for most good RPG's, rarely does an RPG that requires 100% consumption of content equal good). Where the other is making 4 hour of content, but have previously played content that can be replayed simultaneously.
League of legends where they've been reusing more or less the same core map every season with minimal tweaks for years with users playing well over 20,000 half hour matches...
The storyline director for Alpha Protocol had this happen, they had to arrange over 30 hours of cutscenes with alternating dialogue, branches, decisions, consequences that player would only see maybe 12 minutes of. Also the game was just mid and had very little replay value.
I dont know man i can build an RPG in my machine shop garage in a few hours. Honestly the longest part would be the rocket itself but you can buy off the shelf parts for that from your local hobby store
in the grand scheme of things those would probably be considered cutscenes - they are one shot "consumable" story elements - the assets and way to trigger them will be reused but the stuff being said will all be unique and cannot be re-used
@@JoelLikesPigs It takes far less work to just do dialogue than to do dialogue, voice acting, animation, camera work, music, sound effects, cinematic direction, etc.
@@m8rs558He gave a bad example of what he's trying to say. It's not so much about cutscenes specifically, but rather about the scope of the experience. RPGs have to account for player choice, so they have a ton of tiny details in them that may only be relevant one time or a handful of times, or may not even be seen at all if the player never finds or interacts with them. Most other genres, though, such as FPSs, are much more guided experiences and so have a smaller pool of things that need to be created. And because the devs can guarantee so much of what you'll be doing, they can reuse individual details over and over again as needed.
Making an RPG is more like writing a novel than making most genres of game. And if you're trying to make an open world RPG with lots of arrive content and freedom of choice, it's more like writing an entire franchise worth of shared universe TV shows for a single project.
You hit the Nail on the head with my current personal projects problem and what makes it even worse is that I'm not just writing a game but I've got at least 1-2 movie series and 2 book series in mind due to the story having multiple Protagonists (6 total active protagonists which are each interwoven characters with their own goals and motivations each brought together by 1 thing their Shared trauma at the hands of the order of the rose) (In an earlier draft of the full story the main games protagonist, Iris Blackrose was going to be a serial killer but my best friend convinced me to cut that trait out and To be Entirely honest I've been Stuck in Rewriting Hell for almost a year because that singular change Domino's so much that it risks Completely Changing the Story (and I can't just hand wave it away because even to me it screams plot hole) so I've had to add a new Character to be the serial killer that pushes Crimson (one of the two the planned movie protagonists the other focusing on Akane the Red) to directly meet Iris using his eye powers to see she's connected to the case, whilst Lucius (Books protagonists a pure Private Investigator) gets involved with Akane (an Escaped Test Subject and part of the 2nd generation of experiments that iris, Crimson, Lucius and ash were made for but ended in catastrophic failure so they wipped their memories and them under the captivity of 4 people within the same neighbourhood and drugged those 4 to give them 1 goal Make sure they Never Exit The properties Bounds but don't kill them(it took almost 15 years from this initial imprisonment and that influence poisoned the will of the 4 captors transforming them into horrific abusers (iris's backstory has overt Hints to Child(because she's been here in this house her Entire life as far back as she remembers) $exual abuse as a subject matter based on the dialogue of the "farther" and the player is actually in control of this backstory In a telltale style so must make reactive choices (she points out that she hid a screwdriver underneath the stairs to the basement so plans to kick her "Farther" full force and then run grab the screwdriver and if the back doors locked Pry It open with the Screwdriver as her "farther friends" are waiting for her towards the front door in the living room (soon to be dead room if you miss the Screwdriver (because that unlocks the option to Grab the knife 🔪), And in the present which is 10 years after iris's escape she is still dealing with Frequent Flashbacks along with anxiety and C-PTSD (which in the current rewrite she handles through having 1 close friend but is frequently liable to breakdown, and I plan to reintegrate the original serial Killer Plotline via a specific chain of events in the backstory that lead to iris not having a full support network
it's beyond just the cutscenes, though; in an FPS you build the gun, the bullets, the enemies, and their interaction. In an RPG you build a quest and that quest is never used again - at best its framework will be. RPGs in general are just more consistent development needs than something like an FPS or platformer.
@@c.f.bellairs1055 This is why I am 100% OK with game frameworks that rely on text narrative to present the quest. It's a lot easier/cheaper/faster to hire a good scriptwriter/new novelist (and some staff/ghost writer assistants) to pump out a lot of fairly unique individual quests/events. Next step up as allowed by budget, hire a couple of artists to do sketches/illustrations to accompany the text. Just some images to highlight key NPCs or key moments in the narrative action, to convey the game world's vibe or emotions of the moment. Same for voice acting and voiced narration. It seems like more people respond positively to voice-acting (well, good voice acting) Though I think illustrations can get more bang for the buck, budget-wise. Consistently good voice acting seems pretty expensive. I'm not a super imaginative guy, but this format in some games has been enough to keep me engaged and fondly remembering some stories long after I finish the game. Fully rendered, voice, animated in-engine cutscenes just seem to take so much more in resources and time, thus budget. I remember I was constantly in awe at how many one-time use in-game voice lines and cut scenes were made for GTA V. The GTA Online missions got repetive recycled framework, assets and animations like crazy, but even they had a ton of unique character model rigging, mocap, etc done when considered in aggregate. Lots of Shark card revenue and lots of players over a decade. :P
same with R6, only like 12 maps and 30 characters and yet all the data is stored as high-res texture packs for EVERY WEAPON and CHARACTER. 4K fully fledged, or 8K high res possibility that comes at the cost of a whopping 80GB lmfao
@@shyguy85 And then you realize the hardware take 4 frame to read your input, 2 for the game engine to render the picture, 1 for VSynch, 1 for the game code, and 5 because they use a outdated online system. Meanwhile a non esport game on PC is about 36ms (or 2 frame) and a esport one is under 1ms. + 30ms of ping for online
True, though what should be kept in mind is that FNV had almost all of its technical work completed already, what with it using the FO3 framework. That saved a HUGE amount of time, that the team could use to tell stories instead of building a program around them.
Let's not undersell the difficulty of making FPS cutscenes either. I can only imagine how hard it was for the devs to give us the timeless cutscene that allowed us to press F to pay respects.
@@Pokemaster-wg9gxThat would be -CoD: Ghosts- Advanced Warfare. Now as for Metal Gear and what I think the commenter below yours confusing this with Gears of War. They are both mostly third person shooters like Fortnite (Which in addition to being third person shooter is also a battle Royale) Semantics are fun aren't they? :3
I think what he means for FPS the basic format is the same and you reuse alot of assets and animations. I mean unless you're making a stealth shooter there isn't much variation in the animation.
He isn’t saying that cutscenes are harder in RPG games than FPS games. The main draw of RPGs are the cutscenes and story, the gameplay is secondary to a lot of them. In an FPS game the gameplay is the primary draw, with the story being secondary. You can have an FPS game without any real story, cutscenes, or even scenarios. You can’t have an RPG without a story, scenario, or cutscenes in one way or another.
Doesn't sound like that's so much an RPG issue, as it is a "game with a plot" issue. If I put a cutscene in an FPS, it's also going to get thrown away in the same way.
Yeah I don't get it, he may be right but the points weren't great. I've known of platformers, and honestly probably more than rpgs, that are in development hell for so long, over 3 years. I know of platformers that will take longer than deltarune to come out (assuming we follow deltarune development). It's all about the amount of detail and effort and RPGs that lack it are usually seen as very lame because of reused assets so the standard is higher, I feel, and that they just tend to be longer. Doesn't really have to do with the one time experience or reusability, imo, that's something rpgs can go for too if they want to, which makes me feel I'm missing conext about the kins of rpgs he's talking about.
The point isn't that those game genres don't have cutscenes or anything it's that they do not require it to be released as a game of that genre. Story is integral to RPGs because that is part and parcel what the genre was birthed from. RPGs are always trying to emulate a tabletop experience similar to Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder. A key part to those games is a Dungeon Master or Game Master leading the plot for the players meaning there is somebody who is creating the environment and reasons for your character to go through. Even in the most story devoid campaigns there is still going to be a description of the scenery and a reason for the player to be going through the game whereas something like a platformer can just drop you in a world and say go right/left and start jumping. Would it be fun and engaging? Maybe. Would it be a platformer? Yes.
in concept yes. but cutscenes/story and actual gameplay are totally different things. the meat of an RPG's gameplay is pretty much just the scenes you build. other genres can rely a lot more on their core gameplay concepts so that everything is reusable and recyclable... can't really do the same with RPGs where the moment to moment gameplay heavily requires you build totally unique scenes. even a battle system isn't enough to subside that
That's why Final Fantasy XIV is so wild. they actually allow you to relive the entire story and the game is actually designed around you building new jobs to go back and help out less experienced players. with one option checked you can actually watch all the cutscenes again with the new players and experience the story over and over again. The reusing of the story is built into veteran players helping out new players in a mmo. It's brilliant
RPG’s (mainly JRPGs) are some of my favorite games. It’s insane how much effort it takes to make one, and that effort shows. I’ve put over 100 hours into both Persona 5 Royal, and Octopath Traveler 2, and those games blew me away with details. Both games are amazing, and I can only imagine how long they took to make.
I remember a long time ago someone told me "when you start seeing the RPGs on consoles, that's when you know you are reaching the end of the consoles life. Shooters are the easiest things to make they are simple point and click, that's why they are always the 1st games to come out and always flood the market. RPGs on the other hand take so long that by the time devs figure out how to optimize the hardware enough it's time for the next gen"
I’ve been seeing these shorts for about a week now.. I’m not a dev but you really make me think about trying to pick it up and give it a go.. you sir. Deserve all the subs.
This is so true. Back in the day when RPG Maker was all the rage, and they introduced the possibility to hand paint a map instead of using a tile set. I remember arguing with people how even using the tile-set mapping takes so much time then roughly estimated it would take weeks to just create a basic dungeon from FF6. But history proved me right, I can count the number of released RPG-Maker games that were actually any good on one hand (And one of those, One Shot, used a modified open-source version of the engine).
Hire better writers then instead of the industry standard of dogshit writers straight out of college with their fresh creative writing degree that taught them nothing.
@@cattysplatspeed runners at least have seen the content often several times. Story skippers are really weird though why buy a story driven game just to not interact with the story and if the individual has brain damage on top might even say the game has no story.
Adventure games (or action-adventures) tend to have a lot of cutscenes, too. And FPS tend to be a lot like action-adventures these days Cutscenes aren't usually the primary gameplay loop of RPGs, it's mostly still combat and dialogues - the video isn't being entirely honest. One could argue that dialogues are effectively like cutscenes in presentation in triple-A RPGs nowadays, but modern games have automated solutions for non-major conversations. No one hand-crafts a conversation with generic NPC#874
I 110% agree, before working on my tower defense, I was making an RPG. The first part of my game was very cutscene focused and it took me a few months just to get that done. Switching to a tower defense, once your turrets and enemies are done and you made sure everything can be dropped into another level without breaking, only a few days. At least to get the basics working
Not just that, but a full-featured RPG is a crossover of a ton of different little mechanics. It's the final boss for aspiring game devs. In the gamedev circle I come from, it's recommended that you take each piece of your dream RPG and make a small game around one piece at a time. Only once you've mastered all the elements are you recommended to put them together and make your dream RPG. Cutscenes are totally right though, it's a bunch of work for something that gets used a single time. Although, it also cuts down on bugtesting, since the cutscene isn't going to have much variance in the contexts it'll play.
This is why I applaud Falcom for being able to make such consistently good rpgs every 1 or 2 years. They have found a way to reuse as much as possible without the games feeling too repetitive for many players.
A player experiencing something once is also what makes it beautiful. Once in a moon that one shot consumable is so good we consume it 20 times over the next decade.
He’s mostly stating things confidently. A lot of the shorts I’ve seen he makes absolute statements about some subject without much or any nuance. RPGs can definitely reuse content and ideas. You just have to be smart about how you do it. Statements like ”All of it is a one shot consumable. All of it” sound smart but it’s not true
I think he means that conversations/dialog or events can't be repeated (or at least shouldn't be, with the exception of anything time related). Arcade games as an example are mostly variations of the same idea with increasing complexity or novelty, anything with narrative woven into it will likely be lengthier to make.
But to your point, it's not absolute but a general majority. Your FPS could have every enemy be unique, but that's overkill and content reuse is acceptable in that genre. Repeating a quest? Less acceptable, it's done sometimes but when it is, it's typically critized.
It is notable that you can avoid these issues by being economic with your time. In-game cutscenes are hard, but if you make a Visual Novel style framework they become easy even if they look less impressive. Prerender cutscenes from an animation program, etc. if youre worried about any individual features there may be crafty wats to achieve the same goal
"economic with your time" also known as "cutting corners" :'> at least if it is about lowering cut scene quality to save time, if you originally wanted a certain style and are now compromising for time. But even then, the games he brought up aren't exactly cinematic masterpieces, Undertale "cutscenes" are either slideshows of still images or sprites moving across the screen, it does not get more "economical". It still takes many years to make a game like that, due to the sheer amount of writing, branching paths and dialog options, insane amounts of npc-s and content variety. Versus if it was some sort of roguelike dungeon crawler with the same assets and style, where rooms were random generated, with very little dialog or story, and it is all about the bullet hell mini game. It could have been a 1 month pet project. Of course, it would probably not see the success it did, but it would have been quick to make.
@@aki-senkinn I think from this it's pretty clear you don't have much experience programming and that's fine, I just feel like this response comes from a place of not having the requisite experience. Every single game released has made dozens if not hundreds of compromises, doesn't matter if it has 1 or 1000 developers, compromising and "cutting corners" is not inherently a bad thing. Its most important to be able to recognize where you can cut corners and what is scope-creep. Look at a cutscene in undertale and compare it to a visual novel. A visual novel is just a few systems, you have some basic input, a dialogue system (which can be quite complex), and some sort of basic animation system that can apply animations to a sprite (plus swap them out). Now compare that to undertale where you entirely rewrite character controllers, build a basic custom scripting system to script movements and animations, animate every single action scene, time dialogue and have actions progress based on that, and so on. If you want to make an RPG, the visual novel style might be more practical. it's less work, easily scales with the available art budget, and avoids a lot of complex programming problems you may run into but obviously it's just a different way of accomplishing a similar goal. It's important as a developer to be able to recognize how key this feature is to your game, the specific impacts of it, and determine if it fits into the scope of your project. People incapable of doing this are often incapable of releasing games, code complexity is exponential and scope creep is terminal.
@@christophernoneya4635 I am a programmer, and while it's not my career anymore I have some smaller released hobby projects with small to moderate success. I understand the importance of compromises to be able to actually release something in less than a human lifetime. In my experience, while scope creep is a frequent issue, sanding a project down until barely anything is left is just as bad; either out of impatience, loss of drive, deadlines, lack of resources, or plain laziness just giving up on once cool features. I used to work in an environment with strict deadlines and having to cut the project to size, and back then I used to agree to your sentiments; but then it was also where i always got burnt out from every project very fast and i was mentally checked out by the end every time; and I just couldn't take any pride in anything ever that got released. I personally just think by now, if I cannot do a project properly and to it's fullest, then I will do a smaller project, that was always designed to be smaller in scope; instead of just cutting a bigger idea down until it is a bundle of wasted potential. Cutting small corners is one thing; lots of small things can add up to save tons of time; but if I'm at the point of changing genres then it's not that, at that point it's an entirely different game. In case of Undertale, turning it into a visual novel would completely miss the core idea of it being a subversion on classical RPG combat, and giving the option to befriend monsters; it would not be the same game, and probably not worth the time to make it at all.
Then still: Every moment in every game consists partially out of 'core-mechanic/engine'-stuff and 'customized for the moment'-stuff. Yes you can make the 'core' part more efficient by choosing a different style: 'comic'-style requiring an 0.5 fps (movie) over 'movie'-style 24fps (movie) would lower the amount of time the 'animate the thing' step. (assuming one creates something where such a stylistic choice matches the rest of the material. I wouldn't use a wind-waker artstyle with twilight princess 'take on realism' or 'dark material' for example, similar to how the 'real time point and click'-mechanic known as fps would require a certain minimal framerate, ) But while the 'can this part be optimized?' and 'stylistic impacts of doing so', are mitigating factors. The core point of: The 'average' fps is a 10-minute movie (6 of which are recycled actions-scenes. stretched out over 4 hours). Where the 'average' rpg is a 4(to 10)-hour movie (padded with 20 to 90 hours of 'menu based combat'). Yes you can optimize the animation-process (and probably several others) but you will have substantially more story to write for the latter. remains.
I agree with him, but the reasonings he gave was very, very odd. Like FPS games can have cutscenes too and they would function the exact same as they would in an RPG. Nothing about the framework in an RPG makes cutscenes operate in an exclusive way compared to other games
@@andrewgreeb916 I do understand to a degree where he was going since he mentioned how a lot of things had to be thrown away immediately. He just used cutscenes as an example. My point was how that’s a really bad example. It doesn’t properly illustrate the difference between an RPG and an FPS. Now additionally, I also think the main point he was trying to make is similarly a poor point. For example he says an FPS needs a framework to shoot things, and that never needs to change. Yet he says the framework for an RPG would always need to change, but I just think that’s blatantly false. Try playing FF14 and the framework stays the same for the entire game. The only thing that truly changes is the margin for error you have within that framework, but that works for damn near 1000 hours because it’s a really well laid framework
@@gypsyofthebardthat’s an on rails campaign, not an open world RPG or even on rails RPG, you can’t take stuff back with you or have any different choices
There's also the part where it was announced Prior to the entire world having to change in order to deal and handle Basically everything that has been happening since then That's also caused a huge shift in things and altered time frames
@@NoName...... To be fair, it might be for the better they're trying not to build too much hype, especially when they're trying to basically make something better than hollow knight, as No Man's Sky can attest took them Years to finally deliver on the hype and promises made
I mean Hollow knight took three years to develop even more if you consider the fact that concept started further bacm. So it's pretty much in line with it's development time so far.
The cutscenes point is rock solid, but you are also effectively making a world, even if you make a point of keeping conversations down to a paragraph for your first rpg meant for practice, you still are generally wanting to put sooo many details to make the world feel alive.
@@trash-heap3989yep! In a shooter game you can just say it takes place during the Cold War and then boom. Decades of interesting stuff to use! But an RPG? Man, even a boring “typical” high fantasy RPG still needs all this new information to make its game world unique
Yeah its basicly like creating story, world, and so on, but other type of games tend to be creating just addictive gameplay that basicly repeats itself, and has high replay. Playing through rpg is like watching movie or reading book you are less likely to pickup those medias immediately again, but you have to create them in way the media is encaging that whole time during that experience. Basicly like his example of cutscenes in rpg everything is one time consumable even though takes longer to create like cutscenes you watch usually that one time then just dont care about seen that scene anymore
I hear you, and was immediately reminded of Final Fantasy 7, how they had the arcade at the end that you could go to so you could replay all the minigames. THAT is a way to reuse content in an RPG. Edit : 3 words at the end.
gives me a different perspective to rpgs. Makes me appreciate when RPGs do creative things like in persona when they have the cut scene of just the portrait pop up and talk for a sec cause they can reuse that portrait for other scenes.
I would venture to say that RPG's are not the most difficult thing to make, for example a fps needs all kinds of systems in place for things like hit registration, and require a 3d environment, even if it's like Doom, and platformers need physics systems. RPGs don't require any of that, just a text system, sprites and button mapping at minimum, the real programming challenge of RPGs is just how MUCH you have to make
So you're saying that Witcher 3, rdr2, bg3, and Many more open world rpg games don't need hit reg( when they slash their sword or shoot guns or arrow), 3d environment (are you saying these open world games are 2d?), and physics where u literally ride horses and get dragged when you fall due to inertia?
@@bhandos9062 You missed the point completely and ended up just strawmmaning the OP entirely. Picking RPG's that have components the OP said aren't nessecary doesn't make them nessecary for RPG's. Its nessecary for those games in particular but not for RPG's as a whole. You can make an rpg in 2d, with turn based combat using no physics at all. (Early JRPG's do this or even stuff like Fallout 1/2 do most of these). So no these are not nessecary components to make an RPG they are optional and their inclusion depends on the game.
So, as someone who regularly plays around with old-school style text-based/turn-based RPGs and modding things: You are either not knowing enough about the subject, or not being honest in your assessments. RPGs aren't 'just a text system, sprites, and button mapping'. To make that claim overlooks basically any and all interaction mechanics and the balancing thereof. Which takes a LOT of time to do, and a lot of pre-planning to have a hope of not having to go back to the drawing board on something every few weeks. You also vastly overrate how hard it is to set up a 3D environment while actively pretending sprites aren't far more dfficult/time-consuming to work with. A 3d model can, once made, be animated to do just about anything. You can get away with using a single person model for DOZENS of unique entities by slapping different heads or prefab clothes on it while re-using extant animations. Sprites on the other hand, require not only an extra level of artistic coherency, but also CAN'T really be reused in the same way 3d models can, especially in animation. You are limited to palette-swapping for that, at best. A cutscene in a 3d game might be made with pre-existing models, simply animated and framed in different ways by the camera. A cutscene for a sprite-based game that doesn't involve characters 'wiggling' at each other, involves redrawing the entire sprite from the idle pose through every frame of animation, for EACH AND EVERY new movement you want them to do. The higher you go in resolution, the more WORK involved in that, assuming you aren't 'faking' the sprites by using 3D models and some filters to create the sprites. There is, to my knowledge, no IK or procgen for sprites, with even motion tweening requiring a lot more work to make it look okay than what modern 3D requires.
I think you're all underestimating each others genre and a lot of cherry picking. Like wtf rpg game are you playing in 2024 that it's all text based and it's sprite???? Rpg maker games??? Or games dedicated to bring back old school rpgs like say octopath traveler? And even then there's a lot of effort still involve in that.
This relies on the assumption that every RPG requires cutscenes. Every traditional RL completely defecates on the idea that nothing is reusable. Sure, if FNAF Security Breach is an RPG and Daggerfall isn't, then this works. My man, you've been in games long enough to know that RPG is the worst "genre" to generalise because three's pretty much no other term that means more different things depending on who you ask.
I believe he is talking about just a completely different mindset of what kind of game you are making. Most RPGs are designed story first and gameplay second, with most stories being completely linear experiences with no replay value, so you have to be happy that cutscenes will features lots of hard work that will never be used in gameplay. Indie genres like roguelikes function more like arcade games, where almost everything will be seen and used more than once intentionally, often using it as much as possible to avoid having to add more assets and work to the project.
@@cattysplat Nah, this is untrue. Designing a game story first, gameplay second just doesn't work. In practice, you're constantly making concessions to the systems for the game to not just be fun, but even **playable**. Most RPGs are designed *with narrative systems* in mind, this is true, but the story itself, aside from maybe a high-concept outline, is usually a pretty late addition. Heck, even the high-concept outline often gets chucked in the trash. Being a videogame writer is a super tough job because of this -- they're usually brought in too late, with too few tools, and expected to work miracles in the first draft. There's a game called "The Writer Will Do Something" that is very famous within gamedev circles that I recommend playing. Every games writer I know swears by it.
He's incorrect on this one. It takes longer because the math is harder and there's more of it, that and dialogue amount. RPG's reuse assets a lot, and most game genres have cut scenes. Leveling systems, items, armor, magic. You need to work all of this out on a spread sheets first and integrate them all, it's tedious scribe work and there is a lot of it and hard to automate.
It may take a long time, but the people who play it will remember those one-time consumables for years to come~ It's like a fine steak vs a cheap steak.
No, it's not because you're not arguing about making a game, you're arguing about making a story. If you have a bad cutscene or dialogue for your non-gameplay cutscene, it happens once then it's gone and not used. In order to make a quality shooter, you have to nail the core mechanics perfectly because it will be used a million times during actual gameplay. And even if you nail it perfectly, now you have to have a level where that finely tuned mechanic is actually fun. Need anymore proof? There's a million RPGs from tiny developers and they all have their fans because the bar is so low for making an RPG. Making a shooter is only done legitimately by about a dozen developers, not publishers, but a handful of developers that are deemed any good whatsoever. And those are the biggest companies on the planet.
To be fair RPGs don't go around making headlines saying "X game is the new Final Fantasy killer" in the same way newbie devs name their FPS the "CoD Killer" FPS games are so hit and miss and so are RPGs, but the difference is you can like a shit RPG for its story but you can't like an FPS with a shitty campaign or worse, NO campaign and is purely a shooter bonanza.
@@Valigarmanda I think in part because gaming media coverage more than the devs, but yep, you nailed it; it's shown time and time again you can make an RPG that someone can enjoy even with huge flaws. Meanwhile, there are otherwise excellent shooters that people aren't playing because the matchmaking algorithm is too rough. These are such fine minutia that can break a shooter that doesn't even exist in RPGs.
I never consider those stories and cutscenes to be throwaways. Those stories, especially the good ones, they stick with me. Story is the best part of gaming that has been sidelined by big publishers. You are doing beautiful work by telling stories.
I still distinctly remember how I felt when the War Pig ran over a car right in front of me the first time I played CoD4. You can do one-off content in FPS games too, and it’s dope.
and yet thats why RPGs are so long remembered. Each moment in a GOOD rpg is truly unique and can't be replicated. You make a shooter, your shooter game is only treasured as long as there's not a better shooting game that does it all better. Arena FPS died for the Team Comp FPS for example. But even IF more streamlined RPGS after FF6 come out, players will ALWAYS remember those unique moments with Terra or the Opera scene even if 100 games come out later and do "RPG systems" better. Its a more difficult but irreplaceable asset that will stand the test of time if done well.
eating an entire pie by yourself is tough. We are not so different
Wut
I have never struggled eating an entire pie to my self! Pick a better pie next time! Lol
Update: it's not hard
Also update: help
Not eating an entire pie by yourself is tough
We are slices of the same 355/113
I agree! A lot of memorable moments in RPGs only repeat once just to be remembered. Other genres tend to overuse and have ideas and characters overstay their welcome
looking at fire emblem.
@@PButler199414 what do you mean by that specifically
@@juicyjuustar121 used "cutscenes" flashbacks a lot. FF also did it a lot. also the loss of a character was complete game changer.
That is... neither what he said nor the point he was making.
@@shilohmagic7173 so what does he mean by that specifically?
Not to mention all the content you create that the player might NOT see, Its actually insane
"Everytime you use a cutscene you throw it away and never experience it again"
Starfield has entered the chat.
Skyrim has been lurking in the chat
It's basically like making 6 hours of content or 20 min of content that can be replayed for 6 hours
Well, more like 20 hours of content, of which 10 hours is required to reach the end of the game and the other 10 hours is optional (which is the case for most good RPG's, rarely does an RPG that requires 100% consumption of content equal good). Where the other is making 4 hour of content, but have previously played content that can be replayed simultaneously.
@@Predated2no
Well said
League of legends where they've been reusing more or less the same core map every season with minimal tweaks for years with users playing well over 20,000 half hour matches...
The storyline director for Alpha Protocol had this happen, they had to arrange over 30 hours of cutscenes with alternating dialogue, branches, decisions, consequences that player would only see maybe 12 minutes of. Also the game was just mid and had very little replay value.
I dont know man i can build an RPG in my machine shop garage in a few hours. Honestly the longest part would be the rocket itself but you can buy off the shelf parts for that from your local hobby store
yeah but like he said, you only get one use 😂
I like this guy.
(Off-camera) _"Put him on the list"_
😂
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
I love it that we had the same idea lol, having some good mashines is key
This is why games like Disgaea and Tale of Symphonia used portraits for dialogue instead of cutscenes.
in the grand scheme of things those would probably be considered cutscenes - they are one shot "consumable" story elements - the assets and way to trigger them will be reused but the stuff being said will all be unique and cannot be re-used
@@JoelLikesPigs It takes far less work to just do dialogue than to do dialogue, voice acting, animation, camera work, music, sound effects, cinematic direction, etc.
every story-driven game is like that
depends, one way to forgo it is to just not use cutscenes and just play audio in the background.
Ikr this guy just talking out of his ass like he has som great big knowledge
I was about to say. I don't get it, tons of games have one-shot cutscenes?
Yeah, but story-driven games generally don't go on for 100 hours. Most are done within 20.
@@m8rs558He gave a bad example of what he's trying to say. It's not so much about cutscenes specifically, but rather about the scope of the experience.
RPGs have to account for player choice, so they have a ton of tiny details in them that may only be relevant one time or a handful of times, or may not even be seen at all if the player never finds or interacts with them.
Most other genres, though, such as FPSs, are much more guided experiences and so have a smaller pool of things that need to be created. And because the devs can guarantee so much of what you'll be doing, they can reuse individual details over and over again as needed.
Making an RPG is more like writing a novel than making most genres of game. And if you're trying to make an open world RPG with lots of arrive content and freedom of choice, it's more like writing an entire franchise worth of shared universe TV shows for a single project.
It's like writing 2 branching novels and then writing a book of small stories
More like writing a novel and also 3d animating a movie to go with it
It's like writing a novel, creating a movie, and making a game all at once.
the point is be prepared to push your own boundaries if you want to make an open world RPG
You hit the Nail on the head with my current personal projects problem and what makes it even worse is that I'm not just writing a game but I've got at least 1-2 movie series and 2 book series in mind due to the story having multiple Protagonists (6 total active protagonists which are each interwoven characters with their own goals and motivations each brought together by 1 thing their Shared trauma at the hands of the order of the rose)
(In an earlier draft of the full story the main games protagonist, Iris Blackrose was going to be a serial killer but my best friend convinced me to cut that trait out and To be Entirely honest I've been Stuck in Rewriting Hell for almost a year because that singular change Domino's so much that it risks Completely Changing the Story (and I can't just hand wave it away because even to me it screams plot hole) so I've had to add a new Character to be the serial killer that pushes Crimson (one of the two the planned movie protagonists the other focusing on Akane the Red) to directly meet Iris using his eye powers to see she's connected to the case, whilst Lucius (Books protagonists a pure Private Investigator) gets involved with Akane (an Escaped Test Subject and part of the 2nd generation of experiments that iris, Crimson, Lucius and ash were made for but ended in catastrophic failure so they wipped their memories and them under the captivity of 4 people within the same neighbourhood and drugged those 4 to give them 1 goal Make sure they Never Exit The properties Bounds but don't kill them(it took almost 15 years from this initial imprisonment and that influence poisoned the will of the 4 captors transforming them into horrific abusers (iris's backstory has overt Hints to Child(because she's been here in this house her Entire life as far back as she remembers) $exual abuse as a subject matter based on the dialogue of the "farther" and the player is actually in control of this backstory In a telltale style so must make reactive choices (she points out that she hid a screwdriver underneath the stairs to the basement so plans to kick her "Farther" full force and then run grab the screwdriver and if the back doors locked Pry It open with the Screwdriver as her "farther friends" are waiting for her towards the front door in the living room (soon to be dead room if you miss the Screwdriver (because that unlocks the option to Grab the knife 🔪),
And in the present which is 10 years after iris's escape she is still dealing with Frequent Flashbacks along with anxiety and C-PTSD (which in the current rewrite she handles through having 1 close friend but is frequently liable to breakdown, and I plan to reintegrate the original serial Killer Plotline via a specific chain of events in the backstory that lead to iris not having a full support network
To be fair, thats true of all cut scenes, its just that RPGs tend to have a LOT of them
it's beyond just the cutscenes, though; in an FPS you build the gun, the bullets, the enemies, and their interaction. In an RPG you build a quest and that quest is never used again - at best its framework will be. RPGs in general are just more consistent development needs than something like an FPS or platformer.
@@c.f.bellairs1055 This is why I am 100% OK with game frameworks that rely on text narrative to present the quest. It's a lot easier/cheaper/faster to hire a good scriptwriter/new novelist (and some staff/ghost writer assistants) to pump out a lot of fairly unique individual quests/events.
Next step up as allowed by budget, hire a couple of artists to do sketches/illustrations to accompany the text. Just some images to highlight key NPCs or key moments in the narrative action, to convey the game world's vibe or emotions of the moment.
Same for voice acting and voiced narration. It seems like more people respond positively to voice-acting (well, good voice acting) Though I think illustrations can get more bang for the buck, budget-wise. Consistently good voice acting seems pretty expensive.
I'm not a super imaginative guy, but this format in some games has been enough to keep me engaged and fondly remembering some stories long after I finish the game. Fully rendered, voice, animated in-engine cutscenes just seem to take so much more in resources and time, thus budget.
I remember I was constantly in awe at how many one-time use in-game voice lines and cut scenes were made for GTA V. The GTA Online missions got repetive recycled framework, assets and animations like crazy, but even they had a ton of unique character model rigging, mocap, etc done when considered in aggregate. Lots of Shark card revenue and lots of players over a decade. :P
*cod at 135GBs* “a million bullets”
same with R6, only like 12 maps and 30 characters and yet all the data is stored as high-res texture packs for EVERY WEAPON and CHARACTER. 4K fully fledged, or 8K high res possibility that comes at the cost of a whopping 80GB lmfao
@@Vifnismeanwhile elden ring with a map the size of a small country is 50gb
One thing good about the switches horrible specs is that we get to see how much better Nintendo is at optimizing their games
@@shyguy85 And then you realize the hardware take 4 frame to read your input, 2 for the game engine to render the picture, 1 for VSynch, 1 for the game code, and 5 because they use a outdated online system.
Meanwhile a non esport game on PC is about 36ms (or 2 frame) and a esport one is under 1ms. + 30ms of ping for online
@@shyguy85 the heart of that system was released in 1999. I’m sorry but there is no good side to that
Makes New Vegas absolutely astonishing after being made in just 18 months
True, though what should be kept in mind is that FNV had almost all of its technical work completed already, what with it using the FO3 framework. That saved a HUGE amount of time, that the team could use to tell stories instead of building a program around them.
One Shot consumable, you say?
Skyrim enters the room: "Allow me to introduce myself."
Thats what I said :D
Skyrim: Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste. I've been around for a long, long years, stole arch mages soul gems.
Yeah Skyrim is just like this lol
I would think that the hardest part would be creating the story and background, dialogues and that kind of stuff.
"Oh, You are finally awake..." XD XD XD
This is exactly why I look for and appreciate secrets/bonus content in games
Let's not undersell the difficulty of making FPS cutscenes either. I can only imagine how hard it was for the devs to give us the timeless cutscene that allowed us to press F to pay respects.
Pretty sure he meant stuff like Valorant by FPS not Metal Gear stuff because Metal Gear isn't *just* an FPS lel
@@Pokemaster-wg9gx metal gear??
@@Pokemaster-wg9gxThat would be -CoD: Ghosts- Advanced Warfare. Now as for Metal Gear and what I think the commenter below yours confusing this with Gears of War. They are both mostly third person shooters like Fortnite (Which in addition to being third person shooter is also a battle Royale)
Semantics are fun aren't they? :3
I think what he means for FPS the basic format is the same and you reuse alot of assets and animations. I mean unless you're making a stealth shooter there isn't much variation in the animation.
He isn’t saying that cutscenes are harder in RPG games than FPS games. The main draw of RPGs are the cutscenes and story, the gameplay is secondary to a lot of them. In an FPS game the gameplay is the primary draw, with the story being secondary. You can have an FPS game without any real story, cutscenes, or even scenarios. You can’t have an RPG without a story, scenario, or cutscenes in one way or another.
As an RPG developer with a background in writing - it cannot go overstated just how much this resonated with me. Hits the nail on the head.
Doesn't sound like that's so much an RPG issue, as it is a "game with a plot" issue. If I put a cutscene in an FPS, it's also going to get thrown away in the same way.
These days "RPG" seems to stand for "game with a branching plot", smh.
Yeah I don't get it, he may be right but the points weren't great. I've known of platformers, and honestly probably more than rpgs, that are in development hell for so long, over 3 years. I know of platformers that will take longer than deltarune to come out (assuming we follow deltarune development). It's all about the amount of detail and effort and RPGs that lack it are usually seen as very lame because of reused assets so the standard is higher, I feel, and that they just tend to be longer. Doesn't really have to do with the one time experience or reusability, imo, that's something rpgs can go for too if they want to, which makes me feel I'm missing conext about the kins of rpgs he's talking about.
The point isn't that those game genres don't have cutscenes or anything it's that they do not require it to be released as a game of that genre.
Story is integral to RPGs because that is part and parcel what the genre was birthed from. RPGs are always trying to emulate a tabletop experience similar to Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder. A key part to those games is a Dungeon Master or Game Master leading the plot for the players meaning there is somebody who is creating the environment and reasons for your character to go through.
Even in the most story devoid campaigns there is still going to be a description of the scenery and a reason for the player to be going through the game whereas something like a platformer can just drop you in a world and say go right/left and start jumping. Would it be fun and engaging? Maybe. Would it be a platformer? Yes.
In theory sure, but you'd be hard pressed to find any genre that uses cutscenes as heavily as RPGs do.
in concept yes. but cutscenes/story and actual gameplay are totally different things.
the meat of an RPG's gameplay is pretty much just the scenes you build.
other genres can rely a lot more on their core gameplay concepts so that everything is reusable and recyclable... can't really do the same with RPGs where the moment to moment gameplay heavily requires you build totally unique scenes. even a battle system isn't enough to subside that
That's why Final Fantasy XIV is so wild. they actually allow you to relive the entire story and the game is actually designed around you building new jobs to go back and help out less experienced players. with one option checked you can actually watch all the cutscenes again with the new players and experience the story over and over again. The reusing of the story is built into veteran players helping out new players in a mmo. It's brilliant
It makes me appreciate all the RPGs I play even more now
this is why Baldur's Gate 3 is exceptional too. The depth of detail and hard work the team put in.
BG3 is fun, but the closer you look, the more you realize it actually isn't that deep or good.
Fun yes.
E
I literally played for half an hour and uninstalled it. Turn based combat is absolute garbage
@@Wabbajock_Dugatti there's an option to switch between turn based and real time combat. You'd most likely get destroyed in real time.
@@Wabbajock_Dugatti nah, just say you're not smart enough to plan decent strategies. You're brainrotted.
nah man all you have to do in put "make rpg" into the console of the engine your working in and boom, rpg done :)
It all makes sense now.
Seems how Bethesda has been doing it for the last few games,
This is the ChatGPT future.
RPG’s (mainly JRPGs) are some of my favorite games. It’s insane how much effort it takes to make one, and that effort shows. I’ve put over 100 hours into both Persona 5 Royal, and Octopath Traveler 2, and those games blew me away with details. Both games are amazing, and I can only imagine how long they took to make.
I remember a long time ago someone told me "when you start seeing the RPGs on consoles, that's when you know you are reaching the end of the consoles life. Shooters are the easiest things to make they are simple point and click, that's why they are always the 1st games to come out and always flood the market. RPGs on the other hand take so long that by the time devs figure out how to optimize the hardware enough it's time for the next gen"
I’ve been seeing these shorts for about a week now.. I’m not a dev but you really make me think about trying to pick it up and give it a go.. you sir. Deserve all the subs.
The PS1 era FF games were great for this. Lots of mini-games and situations that appeared only once. Made them really memorable!
Witcher 3: "Hold my mead"
FromSoftware: "Hold my estus"
This is so true. Back in the day when RPG Maker was all the rage, and they introduced the possibility to hand paint a map instead of using a tile set. I remember arguing with people how even using the tile-set mapping takes so much time then roughly estimated it would take weeks to just create a basic dungeon from FF6.
But history proved me right, I can count the number of released RPG-Maker games that were actually any good on one hand (And one of those, One Shot, used a modified open-source version of the engine).
Dev: Makes cutscene
Player: Annoyed they cant skip it
Just recently stumbled upon your channel. Awesome insight into the gaming world
As a terrorist I'm pissed and reported this for misinformation.
@@lost4468ytreally
My dyslexia did my dirty on the name "PirateSoftware" by reading "Pirates Of War" alongside "building an RPG is easy" 💀
It's also why I like rpg better. The work and talent shows, the thought and love that go into them are apparent.
It’s the same thing when you make a choose your own adventure type game, the paths that you make for each option only get used one time.
And then you skip the cutscene lmao, the dev be like:" nice he skipped 3 months of my work in 2sec with pressing esc"
Speedrunners and story skippers make developers scream internally.
Hire better writers then instead of the industry standard of dogshit writers straight out of college with their fresh creative writing degree that taught them nothing.
@@cattysplatspeed runners at least have seen the content often several times. Story skippers are really weird though why buy a story driven game just to not interact with the story and if the individual has brain damage on top might even say the game has no story.
Then you email the dev and say “Where’s the story???”
@@iseechords i mean i payed for a game not a movie :v
Adventure games (or action-adventures) tend to have a lot of cutscenes, too. And FPS tend to be a lot like action-adventures these days
Cutscenes aren't usually the primary gameplay loop of RPGs, it's mostly still combat and dialogues - the video isn't being entirely honest. One could argue that dialogues are effectively like cutscenes in presentation in triple-A RPGs nowadays, but modern games have automated solutions for non-major conversations. No one hand-crafts a conversation with generic NPC#874
I 110% agree, before working on my tower defense, I was making an RPG. The first part of my game was very cutscene focused and it took me a few months just to get that done.
Switching to a tower defense, once your turrets and enemies are done and you made sure everything can be dropped into another level without breaking, only a few days. At least to get the basics working
Not just that, but a full-featured RPG is a crossover of a ton of different little mechanics. It's the final boss for aspiring game devs. In the gamedev circle I come from, it's recommended that you take each piece of your dream RPG and make a small game around one piece at a time. Only once you've mastered all the elements are you recommended to put them together and make your dream RPG.
Cutscenes are totally right though, it's a bunch of work for something that gets used a single time. Although, it also cuts down on bugtesting, since the cutscene isn't going to have much variance in the contexts it'll play.
I genuinely thought he was talking about a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, not the game genre lmao
You are not alone
Make an rpg rpg, rocket propelled grenade role playing game
@@andrewgreeb916we had the same Idea,
My brain blanked so hard when he said that
This is why I applaud Falcom for being able to make such consistently good rpgs every 1 or 2 years. They have found a way to reuse as much as possible without the games feeling too repetitive for many players.
tlsdr......m.i.a.o.u.!!!! grrREAT COMMENT, truly!
A player experiencing something once is also what makes it beautiful. Once in a moon that one shot consumable is so good we consume it 20 times over the next decade.
If Klonoa's scream in the first game was replayable in-game, it would lose it's desperation and sadmess
Learning a lot from this guy
He’s mostly stating things confidently. A lot of the shorts I’ve seen he makes absolute statements about some subject without much or any nuance. RPGs can definitely reuse content and ideas. You just have to be smart about how you do it.
Statements like ”All of it is a one shot consumable. All of it” sound smart but it’s not true
I think he means that conversations/dialog or events can't be repeated (or at least shouldn't be, with the exception of anything time related).
Arcade games as an example are mostly variations of the same idea with increasing complexity or novelty, anything with narrative woven into it will likely be lengthier to make.
But to your point, it's not absolute but a general majority.
Your FPS could have every enemy be unique, but that's overkill and content reuse is acceptable in that genre.
Repeating a quest? Less acceptable, it's done sometimes but when it is, it's typically critized.
You needed this guy to tell you a game with hundereds of cutscenes and thousands of lines of dialogue takes longer time to develop than a shooter?
It is notable that you can avoid these issues by being economic with your time. In-game cutscenes are hard, but if you make a Visual Novel style framework they become easy even if they look less impressive. Prerender cutscenes from an animation program, etc. if youre worried about any individual features there may be crafty wats to achieve the same goal
"economic with your time" also known as "cutting corners" :'> at least if it is about lowering cut scene quality to save time, if you originally wanted a certain style and are now compromising for time. But even then, the games he brought up aren't exactly cinematic masterpieces, Undertale "cutscenes" are either slideshows of still images or sprites moving across the screen, it does not get more "economical". It still takes many years to make a game like that, due to the sheer amount of writing, branching paths and dialog options, insane amounts of npc-s and content variety. Versus if it was some sort of roguelike dungeon crawler with the same assets and style, where rooms were random generated, with very little dialog or story, and it is all about the bullet hell mini game. It could have been a 1 month pet project. Of course, it would probably not see the success it did, but it would have been quick to make.
@@aki-senkinn I think from this it's pretty clear you don't have much experience programming and that's fine, I just feel like this response comes from a place of not having the requisite experience.
Every single game released has made dozens if not hundreds of compromises, doesn't matter if it has 1 or 1000 developers, compromising and "cutting corners" is not inherently a bad thing. Its most important to be able to recognize where you can cut corners and what is scope-creep.
Look at a cutscene in undertale and compare it to a visual novel. A visual novel is just a few systems, you have some basic input, a dialogue system (which can be quite complex), and some sort of basic animation system that can apply animations to a sprite (plus swap them out). Now compare that to undertale where you entirely rewrite character controllers, build a basic custom scripting system to script movements and animations, animate every single action scene, time dialogue and have actions progress based on that, and so on.
If you want to make an RPG, the visual novel style might be more practical. it's less work, easily scales with the available art budget, and avoids a lot of complex programming problems you may run into but obviously it's just a different way of accomplishing a similar goal. It's important as a developer to be able to recognize how key this feature is to your game, the specific impacts of it, and determine if it fits into the scope of your project. People incapable of doing this are often incapable of releasing games, code complexity is exponential and scope creep is terminal.
@@christophernoneya4635 I am a programmer, and while it's not my career anymore I have some smaller released hobby projects with small to moderate success. I understand the importance of compromises to be able to actually release something in less than a human lifetime. In my experience, while scope creep is a frequent issue, sanding a project down until barely anything is left is just as bad; either out of impatience, loss of drive, deadlines, lack of resources, or plain laziness just giving up on once cool features.
I used to work in an environment with strict deadlines and having to cut the project to size, and back then I used to agree to your sentiments; but then it was also where i always got burnt out from every project very fast and i was mentally checked out by the end every time; and I just couldn't take any pride in anything ever that got released.
I personally just think by now, if I cannot do a project properly and to it's fullest, then I will do a smaller project, that was always designed to be smaller in scope; instead of just cutting a bigger idea down until it is a bundle of wasted potential. Cutting small corners is one thing; lots of small things can add up to save tons of time; but if I'm at the point of changing genres then it's not that, at that point it's an entirely different game. In case of Undertale, turning it into a visual novel would completely miss the core idea of it being a subversion on classical RPG combat, and giving the option to befriend monsters; it would not be the same game, and probably not worth the time to make it at all.
Then still:
Every moment in every game consists partially out of 'core-mechanic/engine'-stuff and 'customized for the moment'-stuff.
Yes you can make the 'core' part more efficient by choosing a different style:
'comic'-style requiring an 0.5 fps (movie) over 'movie'-style 24fps (movie) would lower the amount of time the 'animate the thing' step.
(assuming one creates something where such a stylistic choice matches the rest of the material. I wouldn't use a wind-waker artstyle with twilight princess 'take on realism' or 'dark material' for example, similar to how the 'real time point and click'-mechanic known as fps would require a certain minimal framerate, )
But while the 'can this part be optimized?' and 'stylistic impacts of doing so', are mitigating factors.
The core point of:
The 'average' fps is a 10-minute movie (6 of which are recycled actions-scenes. stretched out over 4 hours).
Where the 'average' rpg is a 4(to 10)-hour movie (padded with 20 to 90 hours of 'menu based combat').
Yes you can optimize the animation-process
(and probably several others) but you will have substantially more story to write for the latter.
remains.
The green, purple, blue, red, and black slimes in Square Enix games: "I beg to differ"
I love it when you can replay the cutscene and appreciate it
I agree with him, but the reasonings he gave was very, very odd. Like FPS games can have cutscenes too and they would function the exact same as they would in an RPG. Nothing about the framework in an RPG makes cutscenes operate in an exclusive way compared to other games
I think he was trying to get at the level of intentionality you need to make an rpg, it's like writing a book
@@andrewgreeb916 I do understand to a degree where he was going since he mentioned how a lot of things had to be thrown away immediately. He just used cutscenes as an example. My point was how that’s a really bad example. It doesn’t properly illustrate the difference between an RPG and an FPS.
Now additionally, I also think the main point he was trying to make is similarly a poor point. For example he says an FPS needs a framework to shoot things, and that never needs to change. Yet he says the framework for an RPG would always need to change, but I just think that’s blatantly false. Try playing FF14 and the framework stays the same for the entire game. The only thing that truly changes is the margin for error you have within that framework, but that works for damn near 1000 hours because it’s a really well laid framework
At that point, you're making an FPS RPG, which is still... an RPG.
@@Thienthan I’m rather positive Call of Duty is not an RPG with all its numerous cutscenes
@@gypsyofthebardthat’s an on rails campaign, not an open world RPG or even on rails RPG, you can’t take stuff back with you or have any different choices
thanks for helping me understand why Silksong was announced years ago, but we have no idea when it is going to come out.
Nah that's unrelated Team Cherry just hates you
There's also the part where it was announced Prior to the entire world having to change in order to deal and handle Basically everything that has been happening since then
That's also caused a huge shift in things and altered time frames
That's due to bad communication. Team Cherry has basically been radio silent since the silksong announcement
@@NoName...... To be fair, it might be for the better they're trying not to build too much hype, especially when they're trying to basically make something better than hollow knight,
as No Man's Sky can attest took them Years to finally deliver on the hype and promises made
I mean Hollow knight took three years to develop even more if you consider the fact that concept started further bacm. So it's pretty much in line with it's development time so far.
They make those moments count though in the good RPGs, every big fromsoftware game has made some of the most memorable cutscenes i swear
Me, seeing this after deciding to make a monster tamer:
Making an RPG looks tough, never tried to make a game before but the work that goes into RPGs seems crazy
The cutscenes point is rock solid, but you are also effectively making a world, even if you make a point of keeping conversations down to a paragraph for your first rpg meant for practice, you still are generally wanting to put sooo many details to make the world feel alive.
@@trash-heap3989yep! In a shooter game you can just say it takes place during the Cold War and then boom. Decades of interesting stuff to use! But an RPG? Man, even a boring “typical” high fantasy RPG still needs all this new information to make its game world unique
Making an rpg is easy, making a great and memorable rpg is difficult.
Even Bethesda struggles to make rpgs and that's basically their whole thing.
Yeah its basicly like creating story, world, and so on, but other type of games tend to be creating just addictive gameplay that basicly repeats itself, and has high replay. Playing through rpg is like watching movie or reading book you are less likely to pickup those medias immediately again, but you have to create them in way the media is encaging that whole time during that experience. Basicly like his example of cutscenes in rpg everything is one time consumable even though takes longer to create like cutscenes you watch usually that one time then just dont care about seen that scene anymore
I hear you, and was immediately reminded of Final Fantasy 7, how they had the arcade at the end that you could go to so you could replay all the minigames. THAT is a way to reuse content in an RPG.
Edit : 3 words at the end.
Derp face :3
@@galaxysheep444lol
I agree, rpgs are tough to make. Especially when the government says “that’s illegal” and “how tf did u make a rocket launcher in ur basement”
gives me a different perspective to rpgs. Makes me appreciate when RPGs do creative things like in persona when they have the cut scene of just the portrait pop up and talk for a sec cause they can reuse that portrait for other scenes.
I think he's talking about story focused adventure games, not really RPGs. Or like, not what RPGs used to mean anyway.
Any game can let people role-play. Plot driven adventure games just push them more towards it. Still it's a misnomer.
@@AntiCookieMonsterNot every game can let people roleplay.
How am I supposed to feel for an 8-bit alien? Or godforbid a jet that fires lasers?
@@Valigarmandau are roleplaying as the driver of the jet
I didn't know he knew how to make rocket-propelled grenades. What a smart guy.
"Building an RPG I very hard thing"
ATF AND FBI: we got a code red
Can the pirate man recommend me a good RPG cookbook?
I would venture to say that RPG's are not the most difficult thing to make, for example a fps needs all kinds of systems in place for things like hit registration, and require a 3d environment, even if it's like Doom, and platformers need physics systems. RPGs don't require any of that, just a text system, sprites and button mapping at minimum, the real programming challenge of RPGs is just how MUCH you have to make
So you're saying that Witcher 3, rdr2, bg3, and Many more open world rpg games don't need hit reg( when they slash their sword or shoot guns or arrow), 3d environment (are you saying these open world games are 2d?), and physics where u literally ride horses and get dragged when you fall due to inertia?
@@bhandos9062 You missed the point completely and ended up just strawmmaning the OP entirely.
Picking RPG's that have components the OP said aren't nessecary doesn't make them nessecary for RPG's.
Its nessecary for those games in particular but not for RPG's as a whole.
You can make an rpg in 2d, with turn based combat using no physics at all. (Early JRPG's do this or even stuff like Fallout 1/2 do most of these). So no these are not nessecary components to make an RPG they are optional and their inclusion depends on the game.
So, as someone who regularly plays around with old-school style text-based/turn-based RPGs and modding things:
You are either not knowing enough about the subject, or not being honest in your assessments.
RPGs aren't 'just a text system, sprites, and button mapping'. To make that claim overlooks basically any and all interaction mechanics and the balancing thereof. Which takes a LOT of time to do, and a lot of pre-planning to have a hope of not having to go back to the drawing board on something every few weeks.
You also vastly overrate how hard it is to set up a 3D environment while actively pretending sprites aren't far more dfficult/time-consuming to work with. A 3d model can, once made, be animated to do just about anything. You can get away with using a single person model for DOZENS of unique entities by slapping different heads or prefab clothes on it while re-using extant animations. Sprites on the other hand, require not only an extra level of artistic coherency, but also CAN'T really be reused in the same way 3d models can, especially in animation. You are limited to palette-swapping for that, at best.
A cutscene in a 3d game might be made with pre-existing models, simply animated and framed in different ways by the camera. A cutscene for a sprite-based game that doesn't involve characters 'wiggling' at each other, involves redrawing the entire sprite from the idle pose through every frame of animation, for EACH AND EVERY new movement you want them to do. The higher you go in resolution, the more WORK involved in that, assuming you aren't 'faking' the sprites by using 3D models and some filters to create the sprites. There is, to my knowledge, no IK or procgen for sprites, with even motion tweening requiring a lot more work to make it look okay than what modern 3D requires.
I think you're all underestimating each others genre and a lot of cherry picking. Like wtf rpg game are you playing in 2024 that it's all text based and it's sprite???? Rpg maker games??? Or games dedicated to bring back old school rpgs like say octopath traveler? And even then there's a lot of effort still involve in that.
@@theresnothinghere1745nessecary 💀💀💀
This relies on the assumption that every RPG requires cutscenes.
Every traditional RL completely defecates on the idea that nothing is reusable.
Sure, if FNAF Security Breach is an RPG and Daggerfall isn't, then this works.
My man, you've been in games long enough to know that RPG is the worst "genre" to generalise because three's pretty much no other term that means more different things depending on who you ask.
I believe he is talking about just a completely different mindset of what kind of game you are making. Most RPGs are designed story first and gameplay second, with most stories being completely linear experiences with no replay value, so you have to be happy that cutscenes will features lots of hard work that will never be used in gameplay. Indie genres like roguelikes function more like arcade games, where almost everything will be seen and used more than once intentionally, often using it as much as possible to avoid having to add more assets and work to the project.
@@cattysplat Nah, this is untrue. Designing a game story first, gameplay second just doesn't work. In practice, you're constantly making concessions to the systems for the game to not just be fun, but even **playable**.
Most RPGs are designed *with narrative systems* in mind, this is true, but the story itself, aside from maybe a high-concept outline, is usually a pretty late addition. Heck, even the high-concept outline often gets chucked in the trash.
Being a videogame writer is a super tough job because of this -- they're usually brought in too late, with too few tools, and expected to work miracles in the first draft.
There's a game called "The Writer Will Do Something" that is very famous within gamedev circles that I recommend playing. Every games writer I know swears by it.
FromSoftware: Y'all be doing cutscenes?
Rocket propelled grenades do be complicated!
He's incorrect on this one. It takes longer because the math is harder and there's more of it, that and dialogue amount. RPG's reuse assets a lot, and most game genres have cut scenes. Leveling systems, items, armor, magic. You need to work all of this out on a spread sheets first and integrate them all, it's tedious scribe work and there is a lot of it and hard to automate.
Unless it's the Witcher III, in which case I will replay the game 8 times
When this guy finishes a game i will actually take his thoughts into account.
It may take a long time, but the people who play it will remember those one-time consumables for years to come~
It's like a fine steak vs a cheap steak.
No, it's not because you're not arguing about making a game, you're arguing about making a story. If you have a bad cutscene or dialogue for your non-gameplay cutscene, it happens once then it's gone and not used. In order to make a quality shooter, you have to nail the core mechanics perfectly because it will be used a million times during actual gameplay. And even if you nail it perfectly, now you have to have a level where that finely tuned mechanic is actually fun.
Need anymore proof? There's a million RPGs from tiny developers and they all have their fans because the bar is so low for making an RPG. Making a shooter is only done legitimately by about a dozen developers, not publishers, but a handful of developers that are deemed any good whatsoever. And those are the biggest companies on the planet.
To be fair RPGs don't go around making headlines saying "X game is the new Final Fantasy killer" in the same way newbie devs name their FPS the "CoD Killer"
FPS games are so hit and miss and so are RPGs, but the difference is you can like a shit RPG for its story but you can't like an FPS with a shitty campaign or worse, NO campaign and is purely a shooter bonanza.
@@Valigarmanda I think in part because gaming media coverage more than the devs, but yep, you nailed it; it's shown time and time again you can make an RPG that someone can enjoy even with huge flaws. Meanwhile, there are otherwise excellent shooters that people aren't playing because the matchmaking algorithm is too rough. These are such fine minutia that can break a shooter that doesn't even exist in RPGs.
Roguelikes: "ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?"
now I need to get back into octopath traveler, thanks
that game looks dope as hell
@@Vifnis i can.ne NEVER use again.(((_,))
no.1 believed me
Idk, the scene with Tyrial ripping his wings off was worthy of more than one rewatch.
TIL that only RPG games are allowed to have cutscenes
I suppose this makes me respect both RPG making and movie making that much more as well as seeing how they can be very similar.
I always say "if it's not renewable, it's usable", but I overlooked the story itself.
as a game dev i appreciate you using your following to demystify a bunch of stuff around game dev in a way that’s digestible to the layperson.
This is my fallout takes 20 years ⏳
That's why I love and absolutely respect these kinds of content.
"Everything is a oneshot consumable, all of it."
Me, a chronic rpg hoarder: "DID SOMEONE SAY HOARD THE CONSUMABLES?!"
_"you're never going to use that cutscene every again"_
Gonna make an rpg about time travel 😂
It never stops when your in Dream mode
This in context of Baldur’s Gate 3 just makes their achievement with that game all the more staggering.
Thank goodness someone answered that damn phone.
Got to appreciate all those RPG out there. Any game with good story backbone and storytelling worth more recognition.
I never consider those stories and cutscenes to be throwaways. Those stories, especially the good ones, they stick with me. Story is the best part of gaming that has been sidelined by big publishers. You are doing beautiful work by telling stories.
I really enjoy your shorts/videos, you really give me perspective on trying to become a game designer
I think that love you have for telling the story is why you have such a dedicated fan base
It took me a second to realize Thor wasnt about to tell me about how to build a rocket-propelled grenade 😢
1 guy from finland "I didnt only make 1 RPG, I made 2 RPGS!!"
and now we got fear and hunger 1 and 2 and they are effing amazing.
Also lots of variables in an RPG. So for every scene you gotta create multiple choices. So it’s like triple or quadruple the dev tasks and code etc
I still distinctly remember how I felt when the War Pig ran over a car right in front of me the first time I played CoD4. You can do one-off content in FPS games too, and it’s dope.
That's basically just every videogame that relies on cutscenes to tell the narrative of the game, not just RPG's lol.
and yet thats why RPGs are so long remembered. Each moment in a GOOD rpg is truly unique and can't be replicated.
You make a shooter, your shooter game is only treasured as long as there's not a better shooting game that does it all better.
Arena FPS died for the Team Comp FPS for example.
But even IF more streamlined RPGS after FF6 come out, players will ALWAYS remember those unique moments with Terra or the Opera scene even if 100 games come out later and do "RPG systems" better. Its a more difficult but irreplaceable asset that will stand the test of time if done well.
This is such a beautifully simple way of describing the complexity of RPG design at any level, especially game development ❤
At the start of this video I felt like "Can someone just answer the phone?"😂
Thought we were talking about a different RPG for a second until I remembered who this guy is
Not to mention even writing a compelling and good story. It's like you have to write a book and build a video game at the same time.
Why did my mind instantly think he was talking about a ''Rocket Propelled Grenade'' at first..?
Glad you posted this, adds a greater appreciation to the craft
Cant wait for the new backlogs challenge "consumable only rpg maker runs"
Not me thinking hes talking about an explosive weapon for about a good 10 seconds lmao
This is like the contrast in viewpoint from an "engineer" versus an "artist"
This is also why the longer and more elaborate an RPG is, the harder it is to make player decisions matter
And why rpgs are the true kings of escapism. Blessed is the finely curated content
Some games get around this by making you rewatch the cutscene every time you re-enter the map.