DEATH ≠ GOOD WRITING
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2020
- Happy Halloween Everyone.
WARNING! as this is a video talking about death, there will be spoilers for a lot of media, if you're sensitive to that, I suggest you not watch this video.
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I've been saying this for ages, ever since I finished Hunter x Hunter. Just because a character dies doesn't mean the writing is good. It all depends on execution. Gon for example didn't die, but he received consequences for his transformation. And imo that was a more interesting and satisfying conclusion than death, especially since the transformation wasn't meant to be satisfying or victorious.
Yeah I think the first time I experienced this was during the walking dead show where they used death as common as the characters breathing
@@jay7568 It makes sense in The Walking Dead though, because zombie apocalypse. It would be weird if the main characters all just survive. Honestly, I think survival stories are a bit exempt from all this because the point is that anyone could die at any minute, which creates stakes and tension for the consumer. When Glenn was killed in the comics it reminded the audience that even fan favourites aren't save, plus the death had a lot of impact on the following story.
@@JackOfen I'm not say that shouldn't have people die but that they should use so often because it gets repetitive and boring
We're gonna talk about the transformation, but not *SPOILER* Kite's 'death' which led to his transformation in the first place? Cuz there was plenty of death in that regard that served as Gon's main motivation the whole arc. That said, I disagree with the whole 'revival cheapens it' idea. As long as there is impact and there are consequences that are still lasting, it's fine, and in the same way Kite is back doesn't cheapen it in any way.
@@bababobo5067 When did I say Hunter x Hunter made me realize it? I only said I've been particularly vocal about my position because I've see particularly bad takes about consequences in Hunter x Hunter, especially in regards to the Chimera Ant and Election arcs.
As for Gon dying, sure it might have been fine but imo it would have been far less interesting. Gon is a character that would benefit from actually seeing the consequences of his actions, instead of just dying. Because of his transformation he can't go on adventures with Killua anymore, or be a Hunter. Now he has to go back home and go to school. Imo this is a more engaging path for Gon's character than death.
The saddest part, to me, is how people believe that death is THE way to bring tension to a story...
@Darling Vexa Art what about zombie shows, or death games? Death can be good for a plot, it just needs good execution
Which is worse:
D-word for drama
Or
R-VERB for drama?
Wait wait the promised neverland does this well tho-
@Darling Vexa Art Well you might also be certain bloke named William Shakespeare, or someone who worked on Persona 3, so not neccessarily.
bruh, just show them Akame Ga Kill. (It's a shit anime adaptation.)
It's an infamous example of an anime on why death does not necessarily bring tension and good character development to a story.
To summarise, it's an anime about a revolution group made of teenagers and young adults where all of them have a special weapon called a "Teigu" that can only be bonded to one compatible person at a time when at use, it also comes with a special power. (the compatibility varies from each teigu, it's unclear what the compatibility are for each weapon.) They are trying to rebel the Empire as they are making the people in the country suffer. And they have an enemy team that is hired by the Empire to take out the rebel group. Thanks to the current emperor being a naive kid who has a corrupt prime minister who is secretly pulling the strings.
An infamous death in the show would be Chelsea( she appeared mid show and was introduced after one of their teammates died. I believe she only appeared for like 6 eps?), what got most of the fans including me to be pissed off at her death was how utterly bullshit it was and meaningless it was. So what apparently happened was that Chelsea assassinated Kurome(from the empire team) with a poisoned needle that is shown to be very effective against everybody she uses it on. However, they pulled off some bullcrap about how she can only die if someone severs her head entirely and Kurome hunts Chelsea and kills her. ( the only reasoning for how she managed to survive a poisoned needle that was jabbed at the nape of her neck mind you... was hardcore drugs. Should I also add to the fact about how she was tired from battle and was even resting under a tree?)
Honestly for me death is like a cheap way to sympatise with a character in a story, it doesn't matter how sad the moment is if the writting is garbage the "death scene" is gonna be garbage.
Sometimes it can work others don't.
There are good ways to kill characters off too. However, I find that good character death has to do with a) The death has an actual reason in the story, b) The death impacts the dynamic of the other characters, and c) The death is irreversible.
Characters shouldn’t just be killed for shock value. If their death has no overall change for the other characters, it’s pointless in of itself. Also, don’t fucking revive your characters unless they become different people.
@Darling Vexa Art Ye, that’s true, but I only appreciate shock value kills when they show the main cast isn’t invincible. For example, Abbacchio and Narancia’s death in Part 5 were filled with shock value, but Abbacchio showed us the boss is a truly terrifying threat, and Narancia’s showed us that the boss isn’t going down without a fight
@@mreverything7056 death being irreversible isn’t necessarily the correct choice, take a look at the original God of war games “spoilers but it’s been a minimum of 7 years so hurry up and play them already!”
In them Kratos gets killed one way or another in each of them main 3 installments, impalement by pillar in God of war and he fights his way out of hades, Impalement by sword in God of War 2 and gets resurrected by Gaia before climbing his way out and in God of war 3 he falls of mount Olympus which I’m gonna guess is as tall as Olympus mons on mars and he fights his way out hades again.
People love the god of war games despite the fact that Kratos basically gets revived in each title cause the story is great and gameplay phenomenal.
It can be also a cheap way to get rid of cast / characters.
Really hope i did mone right then-
Prologue EVERYONE *D I E S*
except the main character who fled like a coward
Actually i don't have to worry about that since thay event will tack on
- Survivors guilt
- anxiety
- not able to trust people
- compensarion for cowardice
Actually yeah-
"death doesn't mean good writing"
danganronpa fans: *nervous sweating*
With danganronpa though they at least have reasons or "motivation" for said killing like the tapes and their biggest secret exposed in the first game?
I mean I still agree. Some cases where the death of a character doesn't really impact anyone can be apparent. Doesn't mean some of them can't have their moments, just that others were executed pretty bad.
Yes but danganronpa is literally a game about killing, you should at least expect ONE of your favorite character to die there
@@saturnx8147 honestly, you go into the game expecting your favorites to die. It’s a surprise if they don’t
To be honest.
I think V3 handled it the best really.
Bruno is aware that he's a walking corpse, he admitted it to Giorno during the car ride. I don't know if you forgot it or misinterpret that scene, Kamen.
To be fair "CESAAAAAAARR!!!" was telegraphed from a mile away, but no one in Golden Wind was. They shook things up by at random intervals telling the back story of literally every main character except Trish kind of. You knew someone was going to die, but tbh you didn't know who. And even when death came around for Bucciarati and he came back you didn't initially know what was left of his existence was going to be Hell essentially living on in a walking corpse. They foreshadowed something was wrong with him after he was revived, but you didn't know he was slowly rotting away until a piece of his arm fell off and he didn't even notice and they outright said he was undead. The only other real indication before hand was him not noticing a pin prick and for all we know that could have just been a byproduct of Bucciarati being revived and he wasn't slowly decomposing.
Araki really improved his handle on death after part 2. I think it was handled super well in part 5.
Yeah, you're initially led to believe that Bucciarati's safe at first, but then the reality slowly seeps in. Still, this at least gives you time to cope with the fact that he's a goner. Narancia's death hits MUCH harder since it came so suddenly and completely out of nowhere (and just for a touch of irony, he was actually in the main character's body when it happened..... granted, Jonathon already proved that main characters aren't immune to death, but that was literal seconds before part 1 ended). Abaccio's, likewise, wasn't really telegraphed near as much as Bucciarati, though unlike Narancia, you are given a few brief moments to cope with the fact that he's probably not gonna survive (Diavolo, someone who only recently showed he could pretty well curbstomp the entire party at that point, made it apparent that Abaccio was his immediate target, and there was nobody left to protect him after everyone else got lured away by a distraction).
@@YamatoFukkatsu To be fair in Abaccio's case I'd argue its a bit more of a shock considering the state Metallica left Doppio in. .-.
Cesar’s death still hurt, dammit
@@AFarmerCalledChicken Yeah
There are "writing tips" that I see a lot where someone's just -- "If you're stuck in your story, then kill off a character!" And I can't tell you how much I disagree with that. Death should not be an easy out imo.
This is basically the devil ex machina opposed to a deus ex machina. Both tropes are usually there to find makeshift solutions for your plot. Some plots can run with that like the plot of fairy tails. Sometimes the tropes can even be executed in an interesting and meaningful way: Gandalf's resurrection and the eagles in LotR for example. However, they are never good writing, when you implement them to get out of being stuck, and I don't think the tip is meant as that. It's an amateur tip at best and it quite literally only helps those, who do not plan their story to the end. You should always plan your story to the end.
Sounds like some M night kind of advice
Ironically I actually got out of a case of writers block for a story I was working on by bringing a character back to life, ironically. I fridged her in the first draft of the prologue, but then I was stuck on what to write next. So I curiously changed her fate to having survived and I had a bunch of ideas for what to write next.
Do you have ANY IDEA how painful it feels to look at Stories done by Me where Many Characters died!?
If anyone should feel Hurt, it's The Creator Himself, and if he Doesn't, then that's the mark of a Heartless Villain!
How to piss off your readers and damage your platform in this one easy step :)
Man, I have so much to say about this...the amount of times I quit a story because a decently bearable character died for plot progression is too high. Death =/= mature, if you kill a character and theres no aftermath then the death holds no weight.
@Darling Vexa Art so you mean all of Abby's friends
... OK, wroting tropes that are seen as good are not good because they are.
It's based on how you manipulate it. A master writer can convert a cliche into something great.
Another example would be wendigos.
EDIT: Yes, this means "power of friendship" can be good if utlized perfectly.
Bad example of character deaths: Akame ga Kill. They try to show it as an "everybody can die" type of situation, but characters die melodramatically, characters cry alittle, it rains a little, and the status quo hasnt changed. It wastes character potential and nothing has weight
Good example: Chainsaw Man. The series does the previous scenario correctly because while deaths arent overly dramtic, characters are strongly affected by it. Of course I would have added some more emphasis on the deaths, but you still feel that weight in the end, and its almost scare how some [spoiler] characters quickly glaze over it, so it makes up for it.
Bad example: JoJo part 1
Good example: JoJo part 5
@@makotoyuki345 Let's gooooo! I love how death was handled in Vento Aureo.
@@stonefree7973 One of the most heartbreaking JoJodeaths happens in part 7 even
@@Laura-zc6rm I still haven't read parts 6-8.
One issue is that they always go for the CLOSEST one, when in reality the death of someone you only interacted with once can destroy you. You still have to connect them, but then it's dealing more with guilt. A 'they are dead because of me' even if in reality there was nothing you could have done, or you didn't even cause anything. Speaking from personal experience, I have(or at least had) survivor's guilt over something I couldn't have done anything to change, but because statistics point towards me should have dying like they did I feel guilt that I survived but they didn't.
*I know, don’t get me started on like half of the Disney movies where they always kill a family member off* 💀
Very true, it's like they assume real people are emotional vacuums who only ever react to death when it's someone a person is very close with. I can think of quite a few people who I haven't spoken or hung out with for several years, and yet I know it would hit me like a sack of bricks to learn one of them passed away. On that note, I'm kind of feeling like making a couple phone calls right now tbh.
Not really they tend to kill of the side characters then established characters plus viewers won't really care if a side or new character is killed they'll be disappointed with the
Wasted potential
I think in Penny's case,what would've made her revival a lot less cheap is if she got revived,BUT had no memories of Ruby or their time together. It makes it so that there's an actual cost to the revival. It makes sense for the character since she's a robot and her original body got shredded so there would be damage to vital components(and maybe there wasn't time to make a backup of her memories),and it would've made for interesting character development with Ruby as she tries to reconcile her own memories of Penny,with this person that only looks like her.
@Martin Toledo Honestly, considering their track record with the White Fang, I have to at least applaud them for understanding that doing an idea like that justice is outside of their ability and time constraints.
I still hate that Penny is back though.
There was a "cost" if you can call it that, she can only be brought back like one more time because her creator uses his own aura to give it to her or something like, it's still not a big cost, they are pretty much saying she'll die again and they'll have her creator have to decide between him living and penny staying dead or him dying to bring penny back. I can already see that happening and I'm not sure how i feel about it, that would add more weight to it but it's still not great.
Tldr I agree that its shitty writing
I think it would have been better and more sensible for Penny to have those memories but not have the feelings or understand the feelings behind them. It'd be a sort of reverse of the trope where a person has amnesia but still feels certain ways towards people.
But then they didn’t do that and instead it rendered her death entirely pointless(same for Pyrrha’s), which begs the question: why didn’t Penny survive season 3? You could’ve taken her out of the show for a while just by having her suffer extreme damage to her systems that forces her to retreat and return to Atlas for repairs.
And seriously, fuck the writers for killing Pyrrha too, that was just beyond lazy and pretentious in how they executed it. Nothing but shock value. They could’ve done the same thing to Pyrrha. Permanently incapacitate her with an arrow to the ankle that forces her to return home to Argus and take her out of the fight while also highlighting how powerful Cinder is that she could overpower a star athlete freshman, and Pyrrha could’ve left Jaune her weapons to use (“they’re wasted on a cripple,” to take a page from GoT) and even give him her sash. So again, complete waste of a potentially good character just for shock value, and people wonder why Miles and Kerry are so hated as writers (not to mention Miles is a male feminist asshole).
@@CharlemagneGuy127 Originally, Pyrrha's death was supposed to be caused by Jaune's lack of skill, forcing Pyrrha to save him (since they were supposed to fight Cinder together), and I think that's much better written than what we got.
The issue with death in media nowadays is that the character move on all too quickly. A book that really handled it well is The Fantasy of Ash And Grimger. To give an example, a character dies in volume 3, however the effect of said characters death last the whole of volume 4, and sometimes even after that. Highly recommended the novel series
@Darling Vexa Art Exactly. Or at the very least it takes time for the memories of the deceased to fade away. Don't just forget the deceased character in a span of few pages.
I still pray that one day we get a season 2 of Grimgar. I mean Log horizon is getting a season 3 so it's not impossible that Grimgar gets a season 2.
@@Bogglemanify After reading the novels, I doubt it. They left out some characters and details which later on become key to the story.
People die when they are killed.
Jesus: "I beg to differ"
@JUSTadICE J Anos Voldigodo, second best OP character.
Dragon Ball: (sweats nervously)
"that how things should be"
They’ll continue to live till they die
If you kill a main character you *HAVE* to do it with *FEELING* and not for "heehoo lookit the sad scene."
-unless the whole thing has that heehoo feel then it's valid.-
@Darling Vexa Art I'm unsure which Death you could be referring to but from what I can recall (atleast the manga) they're pretty valid.
Oh I got another perfect example of a dumb death. Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean 5. The dude literally sacrifices himself for his daughter, which he has a small amount of screentime with in the film, and he manages to kill the film's villain. After watching it a second time when it was released in theaters, Barbossa didn't need to die. It felt cheap
Or at the very least, his death could have been executed better.
Barbossa and Carina didn't spend all that much time together to make their bond believable.
To add insult to injury, Salazar was a sad knockoff of Davy Jones with a generic revenge plot as his motivation.
Also, Barbossa already died in first film...so bringing him back was pretty pointless.
@@Kingdom850 He was already brought back in the third film for reasons that I still don’t understand to this day, and then reappears in the fourth and fifth film.
@@amirgarcia547 even though we never saw his piece of Eight, Barbossa was a pirate Lord. (Yes, it's speculation, but it's easy to accept that he would be a pirate Lord since he was cursed for ten years before Will Turner lifted the curse in the first film) And as it was stated in the film, the pieces of Eight would free Calypso from her human form to her God mode.
@@dawnwayfinder originally, the reason why Salazar wanted revenge against Captain Jack Sparrow because his brother died. And Salazar wasn't supposed to be a Spanish villain. Christoph Waltz was originally suppose to be the villain for the fifth film
Learn the rules like a student, so cou can break them like an artist.
Fully agree
Danganronpa in a nutshell
“Death ≠ Good Writing”
*Shows Bubsy 3D Death Animation in the opening*
I clearly see nothing wrong with this. Bubsy dying is good writing. The less puns the better.
*looks at Phoenix Wright and what it did with Mia*
You did good, kid.
I really think T&T carried hard Mia's character, as before she was just the dead sister with some relevance and now she's essential to the main plot.
Oh, building upon older games to develop a character? What a revolutionary idea. You would think that later entries in the series would do that, right? I swear, AA5 and AA6 really screwed up some of the characters
JOJO SPOILERS. I think the bigger example of what you’re talking about in Jojo would be Kakyoin rather than Bruno cause at least his backstory happened a while before his death, While Kakyoin the person that has traveled with the group since the start gets his AS HES DYING. We literally here nothing about him other than he likes wrestling and eats cherries like a sexual deviant but the impactful character stuff happens right as he’s dying. Or with the revival thing Avdol who dies comes back and dies again. I love the show but it’s use of death is very flimsy at times.
Well, the reason for Kakyoin’s backstory at death isn’t because he’s dying, but it’s because his backstory is what leads him to figure out how he can learn The World’s ability. No one could understand him because Hierophant Green is invisible. So, to figure out what that power is, he has to make Hierophant invisible to even other stand users. This is the only time we see the Twenty Meter Radius Emerald Splash.
As for how they handled Avdol, that never sat right with me. You killed him off once and it had meaning and impact to character, so when he actually dies you just do it abruptly and it’s so incredibly jarring that it feels wrong.
I disagree, the point of Kakyoin's character is that he is ashamed of his past and doesn't want to reveal it, but in the moment of truth he gets over his past mistakes and accepts it
Kakyion’s death isn’t even a spoiler, because the show spoiled it well enough by giving him an un related backstory in the final fight.
I could end up being in the minority here, but I believe that Iggy’s death was handled better than both Kakyoin and Avdol, as it served as a much more satisfying end to his character arc, as well as brought new light to his relationship with Polnareff. It wasn’t a death purely meant for shock value, rather it was a sacrifice that pushed Polnareff forward and it encapsulates the change of his character throughout the second half of SC.
@@mr.sister1272 I don't think you are in the minority. I think most people agree with you.
I actually wished that when the brought Penny back, she would still have the same voice and powers, but when she saw Ruby she would say "who are you?" She was resurrected so to speak but none of the old Penny's memories.
@@SunlitSonata14272 Got to do that election arc and focus on the true main character.....Hillary Clinton....I mean Robyn Hill.
Really, the deaths of Pyrrha and Penny could have worked but they failed in different ways.
For Penny, the death worked pretty well. It served the plot as way for Cinder to incite mass panic among the audience as well as sow the seeds of mistrust against Atlas. It clearly affect Pyrrha and Ruby in the moment. The problem is that her death had no real impact beyond that singular moment. In Volume 4, the closest thing we see to Ruby dealing with grief and trauma is her having a bad dream, and that dream was a bout Pyrrha's death, not Penny's. I dunno about Ruby, but even if she's a robot, seeing a good friend sliced into four chunks should be traumatizing as fuck.
For Pyrrha, it was how contrived her death was. Cinder has powers torn straight out of a fairy tale, and Ozpin has just told Pyrrha and Jaune to run while he takes on Cinder. But Pyrrha ends up going back to take her on anyway? Why? There's having a hero complex and then there's throwing your life away. The after-effects are definitely felt with her death driving Jaune's development forward, but it's undercut by the fact that her death came across as the writers forcing her death in a ham-fisted way and not because her decisions stayed true to her character. It's the same problem with Clover's death. Any rational person would prioritize taking out the crazed serial murderer, but not Clover.
I wish it had been that way for Penny. But no, needed that 2016 election allegory.
@@riotkitty In four more years, we'll get a 2020 election allegory.
@@Birthday888 I think if Pyrrha spent more time with Ruby and perhaps Penny wasnt obviously a robot it would have worked much better. Like Penny could have the same naievety and mannerisms but they shouldnt have outright shown she was a robot. As for Pyrrha they could have better developed her newfound feeling of needing to be a hero by having her interact more with Ruby who has that same sorta complex but didnt have great fighting skills and a seemingly OP semblance.
I do think survival stories like Battle Royale, Attack on Titan or The Walking Dead (comics) are a bit exempt from this, because the entire point is that death could hit anyone at any time. But this is only true when even the main characters or fan favourites aren't save. With these stories, death has a very different meaning and doesn't alway need to be glorious or have impact, because that makes the story often seem more realistic, since irl death often comes quickly and the only impact it has are mourning friends and family.
An ensemble cast is the way to go with those kinds of stories, so there's no protagonist immunity. I think that's something the Hunger Games screwed up on.
Fully agree, starter
Battle Royale is a great example, because the characters are designed to be expendable. It's made to be hard to attach yourself to someone, because they'll die any second. I think that's interesting. Makes the longer surviving characters more interesting to follow
Also Aliens, Predator and The Raid: Redemption.
@Darling Vexa Art are you saying Attack on Titan doesn't handle death well?
I remember instances where a lot of characters died.
When Ian Flynn first started writing for the main Archie Sonic comics, he spent a year untangling the Kudzu plot that writers Ken Penders and Karl Bollers left.
It ended up leading to the deaths of Tommy Turtle, Kage von Stryker, Locke the Echidna (Knuckles’ dad), Uma Arachnid, A. D. A. M, and the Ancient Walkers
There’s also how many characters died in Transformers the Movie most famously Optimus Prime which I think would’ve been better done by having him leave to repair Cybertron and having Hot Rod become a Prime as to help lead the Autobots on Earth.
*coughs at Akame Ga Kill*
Speaking of pointless deaths, Justice League: Apokalips War was notorious for cramming a lot of characters into the meat grinder without proper development.
To be fair, the last plot point was just to sell toys. So they didn't really bother much with the overall plot.
(but the fakeout with Ultra Magnus not being the new Prime like everyone thought was pretty okay-ish)
@@TornaitSuperBird Personally I would’ve rather have the Transformers movie simply do something like have the Autobots fully reclaim Cybertron, and all the Autobots that would be killed off simply stay behind on Cybertron to help rebuild.
@@TornaitSuperBird still better and had a lot more effort than marvel comics' take on it
If I was to write a death scene we’re later they revive I would probably do something like God of War where death is just another realm and those particularly strong who didn’t die of natural causes could potentially fight their way out, giving both the dead and the living a chance to help them come back and showing how far they would be willing to go to succeeded in that goal.
That actually sounds like pretty good idea. In my stories I don’t really like killing off my characters (especially those who are friends and family) so instead I might temporarily resurrect them. I think that this could help provide some closure both for the audience and the characters- if done right, of course.
@@CammyFrostbite14 in writing something has to be done right, but resurrecting them temporarily isn’t how I would deal with one coming back to life, if I did that I would simply have the soul temporarily summoned into the living world and maybe possess a body but when I mean Realm I mean physical body of the human gets dragged there and in its current state you have to get out through challenges and ordeals so difficult you wouldn’t believe a normal person could do it.
@@AtelierGod oh. I didn’t realise that, but then again I’m still learning.
@@CammyFrostbite14 we all are constantly learning
Also check out asura's wrath.
“Death doesn’t equal good writing.”
Kingdom Hearts proving him right:
It’s mostly because KH follows the DBZ version of death, where pretty much every important character is brought back to life in future games. Including all the villains, Axel/Lea, Roxas, Xion and Ansem the Wise.
@@amirgarcia547 not to mention, all of organization 13, every possible Ansem/Xemnas/Xehanort clone there is or was, and every and any main character ever. The only one they killed and kept dead was Tron.
@@luckyslob3359 I would count master eraqus too. But in general yeah these there the only ones that where never revived.
Constantly reviving characters only to not have them contribute to the story in a meaningful way doesn't equal good writing either.
Man don't even remind me (no pun intended), I was really enjoying KH's story too up until 3D went and rammed the plot into a wall like a train that collides with a mountain side. In a way it's probably a good thing though because it meant that when KH3 came out I already didn't care about the plot anymore and I was just apathetic to it whereas everybody else was severely disappointed.
I think one of the best examples of a character getting killed for development would be (Spoiler Warning)
Maes Hughes for FMA. He was never forgotten, his death had weight and consequences for the characters and eluded to just the magnitude of exactly who and what they were up against. This was more true in the manga and the 2003 version than the rushed beginning of Brotherhood, but you get the gist.
Same with Nina and Alexander in FMA.
I agree
Especially when death was used in the story called:"life"
Not only does death not equal good writing, it's not exactly good for character development, at times. Killing off a character doesn't exactly develop that same character, especially when they die in what can be seen as the most avoidable way possible. I tend to not use death as a form of drama, myself, as I can have empathy and mercy towards characters, but I do try to check on the execution of character deaths.
laughs in persona 3 fans
Thinking on the top of my head Akame Ga kill comes to mind when it comes to meaningless deaths. Dragon ball z is another obvious one. A show I think death is used effectively is jojo pt. 5 and Angel Beats.
Well said, since in golden wind and angel beats, the death scenes are used to show importance of a story as well as be part of certain characters development, like with *spoilers*
Abacchio’s, narancia and bruno’s death as well as yurippe and yui’s back story
@Alexander D. It was practically a bingo game when came to Akame Ga Kill’s deaths. If a character was given more focus and talked about their backstory, they were guaranteed to kick the bucket that exact same episode. The only characters that I felt bad for were Esdeath and shocking Seryu since they were they most fledged out characters compared to everyone else.
To be fair, at least DBZ KNOWS their deaths are meaningless.
@@BluntmanEXE That does make it more bearable, I do love DBZ.
@@BluntmanEXE they’re literally waiting to come back.
Oh boyo, just from the thumbnail I can already tell this’ll be good.
Golf of the year.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Allura from Voltron. Her death conflicted with her character arc of learning to accept others help, rather than thinking she had to always sacrifice herself.
I remember Schaffrillas' video on the subject and he bring a good point about how the lions should sacrifice their lives instead to symbolise how the world doesn't need Voltron anymore with all the universal threats being dealt with.
But no. Let's kill off the most tragic character of the show. That works too.
Jojo isn't exactly the best example to use for bad deaths (Caesar in the intro)
Because Caesar's death actually effected Joseph in the long run, making him more cautious,rather than running around like the carefree douch he was at the beginning.
Hell Caesar's headband was used to help Joseph finished off Wamuu, like Joseph was trying to keep Caesar's spirit alive
I do agree with you though one what you did criticize
Using his backstory right before his death was a bad idea . I believe they also did that with characters in ither parts like Weather Report in part 6
@@MourningButterflies Caesar's death wasn't really the issue, it's the fact his whole backstory was shown before his death.
@@knightmarespawn2690 which i agreed was a bad thing if you read my reply
[Weather Report]
Weather report LITERALLY died by flash back. It showed his backstory because he got his memories back, and the reason he was killed was because, well, he got his memories back. So it sort of makes sense.
IMO JJBA handles death very well. araki writes death realistically in that it happens suddenly and without warning and often doesn't give the character who times any last monologues before kicking the bucket. there are some characters who can cheat death a bit but it still catches them. that's why part 3's final arc hits so hard. avdol, iggy and kaky don't get time to have last goodbyes or anything. they are just......gone.
I agree, the crusaders' deaths hit real hard
Eh, I would've liked Avdol's death more if he just died from Hol Horse's bullet. It would have made Polnareff less reckless and try to keep his emotions controlled.
Another death that kinda stuck with me was Shigechi. Poor guy got super unlucky in finding Kira and getting annihilated by Killer Queen. Got his face split open and everything. And when he gets away and finds Josuke and Okayasu, the only friends he ever had, Kira finds him and ends him in the most visceral way possible. Doesn't help that he was in excruciating pain even when his soul departed. But I think the worst part of the whole thing was that he a relatively young kid that was just trying to enjoy a regular day. He wasn't a devoted ally knowing the dangers and willing to risk everything for his companions or for what's right (like Avdol, Bruno, etc.), he was just a poor kid that got the short end of the stick and died for it. Add that with the fact that his parents don't even know what happened to him and assume he's missing, and you get a death that's depressing for the right reasons.
"Cheat death a but" JOSEPHHHHHHHHHHH
The amount of times I’ve left a show because it was “deep and edgy” and killed off literally all of their developed characters for the drama is immeasurable. Like, oh gee, I’m so excited to watch the new episode of this show that doesn’t have any characters I care about anymore and a plot that’s been completely destabilized because of that!
Same here!
"Oh, look! Another interesting character...I wonder how long this one will last before they need another drama moment 😒"
I actualy got a bit mad when Penny "died" in RWBY cause my initial reaction wasn't "OH MY GOD! SHE'S DEAD" it was "She's a robot, just fix the broken parts. I'm asuming her central processing unit and memory bank is in the undameged head, so why are you guys crying?". Overall you'd get a lot more out of her "death" if you'd astablish that she had any vital systems anywhere she was damaged. You can kinda know what can kill a human, but it's not as easy to gague what can cause permanent damage to a computer with legs.
My thoughts were the opposite. It's clearly stated that she generates an Aura, AKA has a soul. The "shutdown" moment where her pupils dilate I think is clearly meant to show that the Penny we knew is dead.
Logically, can she be rebuilt in a sense? Sure. Can her personality and maybe even memories be uploaded again? Maybe. But it won't be the same soul, it'll be a different person, a clone you could say. Frankly I think even going there with rebuilding her was a mistake, if they wanted a Mk. II showing that Ironwood/Atlas hadn't given up on the idea it should have been a totally new girl, albeit one that maybe had some of Penny's knowledge. Her effective resurrection absolutely cheapens her death, even if we take it to be a different individual.
The "damage done" should be conveyed through the storytelling, which in this case is the visual of her being in pieces, her pupils dilating with a power-down sound effect, Ruby crying, combined with previous exposition. All of these things are conveying to the viewer that yes, this is a real death. Only reason to think it's not would be (ultimately seemingly well placed) cynicism. I guess the fake out in this regard is why they had to turn her into flesh before they killed her again, because they basically already fucked the idea of Robot Penny being able to die.
To a larger extent: Shock value ≠ Good writing.
another thing to note on the thing with Veronica.
It actually has more consequences than 'only you remember the original timeline'. The plot DRASTICALLY changes due to you basically breaking time and new, more powerful threats emerge with a team that has NOT had the training to face them that they got in the original timeline.
You know this kind of reminds me about how Bakugan back in the day couldn't stop killing characters and honestly practically none of the deaths had any meaning because everyone was brought back from doom dimension and with characters like Wavern or the six warriors of vestroia they had no meaning like after original series Wavern is never brought up by anyone she only shows up in Mechtanium Surge just because and after New Vestroia nobody mentions the sacrifice of the six warriors
I can tell this is tlou2 if I'm not mistaken
edit: my god this is the most number of likes I've gotten so far from commenting lmao
Not just that train wreck within a train wreck, but yeah it's in there too.
No it's Tiger Woods
@@AmaryInkawult I think that just brought this issue to the forefront. It's far from the only example, but it easily became one of the most infamous.
No no this is the last of ma'am 2
@@Ray-xd9oy that character isn't trans. They're just a butch woman. Also glad to see kamen brings out the transphobia in y'all her lol
Honestly I would be fine with penny coming back but at least have the death have some kind of impact to ruby & penny's friendship. Either wiping penny's memory or ruby finds her in her rebuilding state would cement how important she was to ruby.
The big issue with that is, bring her back not only cheapens the impact it had on Rwby, BUT THE IMPACT her death can on the world. It was part of the catalyst that Cinder used to bring in more confusion and chaos. Just bringing her back and even having it have an important impact on Rwby and Penny's relationship to make it make up for how her revival cheapens the impact of her death, it would still put a big FUCK into impact it had on the world.
@@Nico-zt5jl I mean to be fair the seasons leading up to penny's appearence were depressing so making the follow up season be just as depressing would suck compared to how rwby was before. I think of penny's appearence as a way to lift up the tone of the story. The issue was her appearence and more importantly how it was done retconned what happened in prior seasons making it so penny was ok all this time.
@@Safearcane8817 The latest season was political issues in a shit town which hella depressing and the next season doesn't look any less depressing, so that doesn't make much sense.
@@Nico-zt5jl no like penny would be contrasting against the depressing tone that is set showing that some good things happen. I'm more critical on its execution on how she came to be rather than why she was still alive.
Penny was at least a machine so her being put together is far from the hardest thing to believe and her losing her memory would make little sense since I somehow doubt her core consciousness and data tracks are stored in her abdomen or arms and we don’t see her spark leave her body, wait I think I blended two different franchises there?
I actually feel like death is over rated. I’m going to use Shadow the hedgehog’s death for an example. While I don’t agree with bringing him back to life. I also don’t agree with the fact that Shadow couldn’t have been developed more then he did in sonic adventure 2. And I personally think he should have never died to begin with.
As a fan of the character, I find your comment to be perfectly understandable.
I have similar feelings on the matter as they did a real good job with his character in sonic heroes. But either way I'd rather shadow had stayed dead in a satisfying conclusion rather than slowly degrade into a cheap parody of himself (which seems to be the fate of all sonic characters now).
The last game where shadow was an actual good character was in sonic 06 and that's a shame.
I remember when the red Ryusoulger's friend died and that somehow caused him to earn his battlizer even though no, he didn't earn it. I ragequit that show pretty hard.
Didn't exactly help it happened right after he just freed from the armor's curse and became a good guy. He didn't last long as a member of the team. That's what also really annoyed me.
Lets hope dino fury don't decide to do the same crap.
@@ricardooliveira562 Power Rangers generally doesn't kill off any of it's main cast compared to Super Sentai. If it did, Characters like Tommy Oliver, Trent Mercer and various others would likely be dead.
@@StarlightMagician thats true but lets hope nada counterpart do something more then " NEW TOY OF THE WEAK" bullcrap.
@@ricardooliveira562 I blame Saban for that crap before they lost rights to all Super Sentai related anything.
To be fair. Sailor moon is just as guilty as dragon ball with the resurrection bs.
Oof.
@@ChiefMedicPururu Yeah. The Silver Crystal has no downsides to revinving. Closest downside is that i can think off, is that's its supposed to be dangerous to use. And it cost Queen Serenity her life. Another one that doesn't end up mattering is the revived and caster lose their memories. But the cats can bring the memories back.
I have legitimately seen more people complaining that they'll get hate for talking bad about TLOU2, than people actually hating on guys who talk bad about TLOU2
Hating TLOU2 is almost compulsory on the internet nowadays
Look up there, there's one.
Maybe because the game is shit?
Meanwhile I fucking love it
Red dead redemtion,The Walking Dead,Halo Reach and Mafia Spoiler Ahead
Tommy Angelo's Death from Mafia
Arthur Morgan and Jack Marston Death from RDR and RDR2.
Lee's Death from the Walking Dead.
Noble 6 from Halo Reach
These are some of good well written video game protagonist death's out there,Because the game's writting is just top notch and make you feel for all of the characters and let you be part of it.
All of these death didn't ignite the fan base nor infuriated them but instead it actually and genuinely made them emotional and feel for the story and how it's impacted it's sequels and people liked and praise it for that.People are accepted their deaths.
Joel's death on other hand is not,as not only its disrespectful to a beloved protagonist,it's beyond stupid,cheap and badly executed thanks to game's awfully bad writing as the death was purely meant to used as some shock device to motivate the player to be "Angry" and feel "Hate" only to be blueballed by the ending.It just spits on you.People have every right to hate the game for it and ofc there is always those people who will try be all philosophical and defend the game but it's easy to disagree such opinion and move on instead of bitching about it.
It all depends on how good the deaths are written and executed...Especially if they the main protagonist.
If the game is beautifully written well,the impact of the such death is mostly positive and accepting.
but if written poorly and force you sympathize..It's still bad.Regardless if the production quality is AAA...Especially if its story driven.
You are one of the only people I've ever seen who has mentioned Noble 6s death, and I'm happy to see someone else who appreciates how good of a death it was.
Akame ga kill fans need this information
average Akame ga kill fan: ‘YeAh BuT EveRyOnE DiEs sO ItS bEttER ThAn OtHeR aNiMeS’
I figured death-by-flashback is 'life flashes before your eyes' and only in death do you realize this character's side of things, and now it's just... snuffed out.
What baffles me about tlou 2's ending was that it just felt like the characters gave up on revenge even though minutes before they were slaughtering hordes of people...there was no build up so it just did not make any sense to me. I mean what the most we got were a couple of flashbacks and that's it.
And honestly I wouldn't mind this decision at all if there was actual buildup to it but nah it just felt hollow
I would say writing can be good or bad with death. Umineko does it great. Akame ga Kill on the other hand doesn`t use it well.
Fully agree
I actually liked Akame ga Kill
Akame ga Kill was the fucking worse with deaths. HAHAHA CAT GIRL FUCKED OFF AND DIED FOR NO REASON AIN'T THAT A FUN WAY TO HAVE A LOVED CHARACTER DIE!? The main character fucked died, but wasn't aloud to rest because the stupid ass teal haired girl joined him in their deaths. A bunch of characters just randomly kicking the bucket. Fuck the ending especially pissed me off.
@@Nico-zt5jl The ending of Akame ga Kill kinda reminded me of the ending of Mortal Kombat 9 where a bunch of strong characters died withing a minutes against Sindel.
Hey, I, presumably like many people, was drawn into your channel by the Cvit drama. But since then, I’ve binged some of your other videos. I just want to say how much I appreciate your channel. It’s a real diamond in the rough, keep up the great work!
I believe we also should point out when death as a trope is needed as there are times where death is the natural consequence of what the character is doing despite all assumptions to the contrary.
So basically depending on what kind of story you want to tell, mostly a serial story, if you're going to kill off a character and/or bringing them back to life it should be discuss about it and have some form of importance to the story. I say serial stories cause l feel with episodic stories you can get away with killing of and/or bringing back characters since it's not the main focus of the story (ex. Space Dandy where the characters die several time but come back the next episode).
@Darling Vexa Art I feel like with shows that are episodic are supposed to be seen as entertaining/ having a good time so deaths in these shows shouldn't be taking seriously cause that's not the point. Again Space Dandy had the characters die but I don't think we were supposed to feel anything about it more so focus on what kind of adventures they are going through each episode.
Wooo boiiii I can already tell that this is going to be fun...
Can't wait!
Great vid as always, Kamen! I definitely agree with you in a character dying in fiction doesn’t automatically make it good writing, and in fact if poorly handled, can actually end up resulting in a disaster. A series where I definitely think death was handled well was in HunterxHunter, with *major spoilers*
The death of Kite. Being that at first, due to his naive child optimism, Gon believes Kite is still alive, and his main motivation along with defeating the Chimera Ants is to bring him back. However, we eventually learn that Kite is actually dead, and this realization hits like a tom of bricks since it causes Gon to spiral through plenty of emotions, from despair, anger and even guilt. Even beforehand, he had a major shift in character, including being willing to harm an innocent girl and acting entirely cold towards Killua due to being focused on nothing but getting Kite back from Neferpitou. Mostly because he blames what happened to Kite on himself due to him sacrificing himself to save Gon. And after the aforementioned big reveal, he doesn’t care what happens to him so long as he’s able to avenge Kite, hence why he burns through every bit of Nen through his body in order to rapidly age himself and defeat Pitou. So overall, Kite’s death is done exceptionally well since it not only drives the story forward, but serves as some great character growth for Gon as well.
As for something where the death of a character is handled incredibly poorly and is used for nothing but shock value...well, let’s just say it’d be in the best golfing simulator of 2020. Because I was entirely expecting and willing for this certain character to die, but to do so in the most contrived and baffling way just so the devs can pull one over on the player is manipulative at best and shoddy writing at worst. People are entirely fine to disagree, but it’s just one of many problems I have with this game’s overall narrative.
One of the better deaths for me was Roland from Borderlands 2. You spend a good chunk of the game working with him. A character you played from the first game is now here to help you in the second game. When you think you are close to reaching Jack and ending the fight, *BANG*, Jack is there shooting Roland straight through the heart. He is gone, Lilith is enraged, and the funny man Jack you knew throughout the game is now gone. You are left sitting there, shocked at what happened, and realize that this time, he isn't coming back. The characters you talk to about his death are in disbelieve, to think that he is actually gone. Now this fight isn't just to stop Jack and save Pandora, it became personal.
That is a death that has impact and actually worked in the story (in my opinion at least).
Adding to this, Dragon Keep expanded on Roland's death and how it especially affected Tiny Tina. The tale Tina wove was her coping mechanism, allowing Roland to live on through her imagination. Everyone ends up saying one last goodbye at a statue erected in his honor, with Claptrap ruining the moment (of course).
Maya didn't entirely get this same treatment in BL3. She got done dirty.
*spoilers from one piece* Ace and whitebead's dead is an example of a good death from plot device because even when the impact in the main character was huge the real important thing was the waves that created in the new world creating a void in power letting to the rise of the worst generation.
Sorry for my bad english. C:
If you give your character the axe might give your story the axe.
*TL;DW* It's all in the execution, for example you could have the most cliche 'love at first sight' trope and pull it off masterfully by fleshing out your characters. You can even have deus ex machinas if you took the time to build them into the mechanics of your universe (e.g. Gandalf coming back from the dead).
@Edward Armstrong
i say a good example of love at first sight is from re:zero
when emila saves subaru
Penny being brought back would have been infinitely better if she didnt have any of her memories. Could have actually been a good scene in RWBY for once
Chainsaw Man kills its characters way too soon and too often, and half of the time its like eh whatever, to actual tears being shed (RIP best boi....you know the one....)
Rip best girl too
I agree Chain saw man does it too soon and too often with how much the try kill off characters “.
You say JJBA is the biggest offender of death by flashback, and I raise you a counter with Akame Ga Kill. The trope was used so often and so poorly in the anime, it became a meme to see how long it would take in the episode for a character to die after dropping their backstory. Current record afaik, 5 minutes.
I'd like to present you to Demon Slayer. For every demon who gets defeated, there's a flashback chapter, and it gets old really fast
If Last of Us 2 DIDNT let Joel die in the early game until much, MUCH, later with better writing and pacing... then maybe the story could've been saved.
But since we saw Joel die early in the game, it just kills the story.
@Darling Vexa Art Because the story tries way to hard to make the players sympathize with Abby. But because of the wroting and the pacing, the whole "sympathy" for Abby is completely thrown out the window since she killed Joel early in the game. And some few other factors that Ellie does to Abby which again, the story tries eay too hard.
@Darling Vexa Art That does sound like a good idea
Fully agree, starter
All they needed to do was follow the pacing of the first game. The first game didn't have arbitrary flashback sequences instead it showed you the full story from the beginning to the very end. They just wanted Abby to be playable so badly that they gimped the pacing of the narrative so they can make you play as Abby faster. I think the game would've been much better if all those flashbacks sequences were the first parts of the game so that when it gets to Joels death it carries a lot more weight and would feel more like a proper ending to his story. They show Joel being mercilessly killed but then we have segments where we are playing and interacting with him after that and it just feels so off. Like "Oh man I can't believe they killed Joel" 2 Chapters Later and we're hanging out with Joel again. Wtf game
@@captainseg And the story does such a cheap way of trying to make the player sympathize with Abby. Like oh she has friends, had a dad, a dog, and is nice person yes. Feel bad for her poooooooooooooooooor tormented soul that is totally okay with fucking killing a pregnant girl without hesitation, FEEL BAD FOR THIS POOOOOOOOOOR SOUL that doesn't think twice before doing some fucking horrible shit. It just all comes all off as FEEL BAD! ARE YOU FEELING BAD YET!?!?!? FEEL BAD FOR THIS EVIL PERSON DAMMIT!
Like come on, they didn't put anything to trying to humanizer in a way that wasn't so obvious and cheap that it completely negated her ability to be sympathetic even making her more infuriating because it so obvious what the writers are trying to pull with their garbage.
On the subject of bringing a character back too life, I feel it can be done well, like how they did it in kamen rider ex-aid with Lazar. Because his death still had a huge impact on the other characters and they grew from it. But then when lazar came back we were able to get more development for him. Also seeing dan die over 100 times was very fun to watch :)
Yeah, I agree.
This sounds really dumb and simpish but honestly I think penny coming back cheapens pyrrahs death even more. Which is always frustrating since hers and jaunes interactions were better than pretty much anyone else and both felt like better characters than the RWBY team.
Penny coming back and her herself not understanding the importance of her own death I can believe she’s a machine and all that really needs to be done to revive a machine is replace the broken parts, it’s not like a human where brain death can set in shortly after death.
@@AtelierGod I'm not talking about the characters I'm talking about the overall story arch. I don't expect the characters on world to realize anything since it's been proven time and again that miles and Kerry have no idea how to competently write.
@Darling Vexa Art if you thought 4 was boring 5 must’ve been a death sentence of boredom.
My favorite example of a bad, unnecessary death is Dezel in Tales of Zestiria. You learn very little about him before he's killed off, you get a little scene of the party being sad, and then the next day he's instantly replaced with Zaveid, who is mechanically identical to Dezel but you know even less about. Dezel's death changes NOTHING. There is no change in character growth to those left behind, he isn't fleshed out post mortem, and Zaveid remains just as much of a mystery as he was before he joins the party. There are passing references to how Zaveid and Dezel knew each other at some point in the past, but that connection isn't explored either. No impact is felt in terms of writing, characters, or combat, and it pisses me off because I always thought Dezel was strong conceptually and had a lot of potential who just wasn't allowed to grow further.
That game is the worst mothership title of the series for a reason.
last of us 2: revenge is bad, violence is bad, but we give you no alternative and we don't care about the dozens you've already killed till now
at least Last of Us made sure you knew that Joel was a bad person early on, rather than with this hamfisted nonsense.
Exactly
Go play Prey (2017). It handles themes of empathy much better.
Except it shoots its "revenge is bad" message in the foot because Abby gets revenge on Joel and would have completely gotten away with it. Hell, she technically DID completely get away with it. Everyone else she brought with her paid for it, but not Abby.
@@scottgaultney that's the other reason its abad moral: because the game picks and chosoes WHICH revenge is 'bad' and goes unfulfilled, but doesn't actually have Abby you know face real consequences personally for what she did.
This video reminded me of one of my favourite Book series: Skulduggery Pleasant by Derek Landy. It is a very grim and gory series with a lot of deaths in it, but no death, being it major or minor, feels really empty, instead they are almost always properly built up. I can really recommend it.
Another good example of death done right is oddly enough is of a robot. I am referring to the Transformers series known as BEAST WARS! In the second season they killed off this team hopping character known as Dino Bot. He started on the villain side and jumped to the join the heroes. He goes through a good amount of development. His development reached a climax in season 2 episode 9 Code of hero and the episode ends with him sacrificing himself for the better good. Later in season 3 there was a Dino Bot clone made who also goes through some stuff and ended up sacrificing himself in a similarly heroic way as his original. There was even a cut episode where it was planned that Dino Bot backed up his memory and one of the characters that was close to him made it a mission to upload the back up in the clone to try and the original Dino Bot back leaving it vague on if the plane worked.
Premiered 69 minutes ago is such a blessed sight.
Penny's initial death in RWBY was really well done, both in execution and build-up having had the second most developed dynamic in the show with Ruby (some people immediately thought she would come back and I don't get that mindset since throughout the show to that point they made it clear she was one-of-a-kind and completely unique - the show itself even had to pull an explanation out of nowhere to justify it by saying her body was just left by everyone in Amity Colosseum that made its way the whole way back to Atlas without any supervision despite the grimm attacking it, Weiss never hearing of this, etc).
If they had seen it through and had major consequences (such as dealing with the grief, making Penny mentally altered due to the events or properly addressing how her revival affects Ruby's feelings) then it would have been a good example of a death in media done right. They had the set-up, they had the impact, they just failed to stick the landing.
It was inevitable she was going to come back because... Robot.
It’s a shame that some people think the opposite.
I don't think every single Death by Flashback wants to force sympathy for a character onto you. It's just the characters' lives flashing before their eyes.
And, dramatically, it just makes the most sense to place that kind of flashback before their death instead of some other, random place.
I think his problem is that flashback being a "justification" to sympathize with a character. Like a character that you have no reason to like suddenly getting a sad flashback before dying with the mood of the plot implying that you should be sad for that. When it's a well-developed character, the flashback can be great tho
I take it given the context of his point and how all I saw of it was Ruby's Volume 1-3 design, the second RWBY clip was Pyrrha's death
6:17, I KNEW IT!
@Darling Vexa Art As one CZcamsr put it: "she had so many death flags she might as well have communicated in semaphore!"
czcams.com/video/K3vYbF3_TAk/video.html
THANK YOU!
Despite how infamous Dragonball's resurrections have become, they're actually a lot more consequential with context, and often times, entire arcs revolve around the fact that it's really not so much of a quick fix as many would claim. Not to say they're perfect ways of handling death, but I'd say that the tone is a lot more heavy than people would give them credit for. If you'll allow me to go through the series one arc at a time.....
-Going all the way back to the very first character to be resurrected, Bora. Now I could talk about how, up to this point, it was unknown whether or not Shenron's wishes could even counter death, but this ultimately isn't dwelled upon too much. What was a more pressing issue is knowing that the entire reason for Goku setting out on another journey in the first place was to retrieve his grandfather's four-star ball. Of course, Goku could recognize that the life of his friend (even if to us, the audience, he was a VERY minor character in the grander scheme of things) was more valuable than him being parted from his prized memento for another year, but it is nevertheless quite the inconvenience that would render Goku's initial goal moot (though fortunately, he figured out a trick to get his wish and the ball at the same time).
-When Kuririn first died (with Chaozu and Roshi soon following), King Piccolo not only got his wish before Goku could, but he fucking KILLED Shenron afterwards. For this point in the series, it gives the impression that these characters really are dead for good, and it isn't until Goku meets Kami that he discovers that the Dragon Balls and Shenron can be restored. For being only the second time in the series where death was an issue (and with main characters this time), this was actually a pretty shocking turn of events. Though granted, its effect is greatly hampered nowadays since there's hardly a being alive who doesn't know that Z exists.
-At the beginning of Z, it seems like we're now at a point where characters could recklessly play around with death, to the point that Piccolo casually brags about how quickly Goku could come back. However, that actually ends up being the cause of all their problems in the first place, and not only that, but it turns out there are a couple of caveats to the Dragon Balls: they can't bring back the same person twice, and as the Dragon Balls are tied to their creator, they'll disappear should he die (which is only made even more problematic when his life force is also tied to Piccolo's, Piccolo being an active fighter who'd constantly be putting his life on the line). Of course, Piccolo does end up dying and the Dragon Balls are gone, which leads directly into......
-Namek. Fortunately, they do find out that there's another set of Dragon Balls that could bring their set of Dragon Balls, along with all their lost friends, back into existence. Problem is: they're also being targeted by an intergalactic army led by one of the most powerful, not to mention sadistic, beings in the universe. Adding to that, the creator for this set is on his last legs, and MVP Goku is out of commission for most of the arc. While the fact that these balls could grant three wishes seems convenient at first, they soon discover that they could only bring back one person at a time and are forced to be more strategic about what they wish for. Also, Kuririn dies again while they're still under the impression that people can only be brought back once, though in the end, they lucked out with the Namek balls turning out to not have such a limitation.
-Aside from the fact that Trunks came back to prevent a future where nearly everyone, including Piccolo, dies, Piccolo ends up fusing with Kami and making the Dragon Balls disappear anyway. Though Dende is soon recruited (with the added convenience of him not being an active fighter), earth's DBs are still limited to bringing back a person once, with Goku experiencing his second death and staying that way for seven years.
-We get Vegeta dying a second time and Goku expending his temporary stay very early on, Bulma rendering the DBs temporarily unusable when she revives a bunch of victims too early, and eventually the entire earth explodes, with Dende just barely scraping by through the whole ordeal. Really, if Vegeta hadn't suggested getting into contact with Namek, they'd have probably been screwed.
-Though it's never really been canon in the first place, GT nevertheless gets a mention. The entire conflict of the final arc was the result of the Dragon Balls' power being abused over the course of the series, and once the conflict was all resolved, Shenron decided to just go away so as to prevent such a thing from happening again.
-When it comes to Super, they haven't really been using the Dragon Balls much for resurrection (though granted, it's a much more light-hearted series to begin with, at least for the most part, and character deaths have been kept to a minimum). Still, the threats managed to escalate to the point of entire universes getting erased, something which could only be reversed via the elusive Super Dragon Balls (which only the tournament winners could have access to, and one might wonder if such a wish could be allowed at all considering Zen'ou's reasoning for culling planets in the first place...... though it did turn out to just be an excuse). Haven't been keeping up with the manga, so I can't really speak on what's been occurring there.
MangaKamen was never the same after that game of Monopoly
the "tragic story just before death" thingy, I see it as a writter's last resort to give a character some backstory that they didn't know where to put in the normal progression of the story, I enjoy it in jojo's but thats just me.
Great video dude.
I am annoyed that no one uses the Bioshock 1 ending to describe Joel's death. Like come on! Beaten to death by a golf club? At leas add Ryan shouting his famous quote in the background...
Also, don't bring back a character from the dead who has fulfilled his/her purpose to the story just because that character was popular. This particular complaint involves Persona 5 Royal's True Ending.
I was already feeling iffy when Akechi came back suddenly before Joker gets sent to prison, but the events that followed explained it clearly and I was satisfied with his conclusion. And then the True Ending had to drag his corpse back onto the scene near the end by implying the guy made it out after all. I mean, c'mon. You just know Atlus is gonna exploit this character's fans with cameos and appearances in future spin-offs. Not like they already didn't in Persona Q2.
Was that the actual Akechi at the ending though? Or was that the "ideal world" akechi that somehow made it over.
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 Either way, I really don't think he needs to be in the story anymore. His final resolution in the 3rd Semester was a good enough send off.
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 its the real Akechi. There’s even an unused scene in the game where he talks about going to therapy in the same place his mom went before commiting self delet.
@@ByNasharuu ahh okay, yeah I completely forgot about the cut scene. I mean it makes me happy he is still alive
Honestly, the main reason I didn't buy P5R was because there was going to be more Akechi. He is such an overrated character.
I have always agreed on that notion. Ever since I writer I watch made the point that "Death of a character means any potential or use the character gets stops right there and than. Keep them alive and you can see them scar and change." Doesn't mean death can not have it's uses but just because characters die, it's just that because it goes against our expectations it doesn't make it the next Macbeth.
@Darling Vexa Art That's why I said "Doesn't mean death can not have it's uses."
Usually death helps prop other characters, inspires groups of people, or in term of mentor characters if they had no more to teach than their character is left up in the air where they could be killed.
Exactly. I wish people would realize this but many series don’t understand it. Especially with series such as RWBY!
My personal opinion~
Death should be permanent in stories. Bringing back someone from the dead cheapens character development, stakes and death itself. It's my personal no no in writing.
Characters getting a flash back before death feel mishandled. You should know everything you need to know about a character long before their death instead of the remaining last 20% - 40% of their back story/character be revealed in the same episode/chapter they die, Or have something new to learn about them after death.
Make sure I care about the character getting killed off. Oh no a boring generic guy who was introduced one half to two episodes ago died, so tragic.
What if THE main character dies and the quest isn’t finished yet? This is one of the flaws in your argument
Death can’t always be permanent, which when handled well it’s a good thing. Let’s look at Chrono Trigger for example.
(Spoiler Warning for Chrono Trigger... we good now dudes?.. alright we good)
In Chrono Trigger the main character and silent protagonist, Crono, gets killed by sacrificing himself to save his team of time traveling heroes from the final boss Lavos. However, not only does this destroy the party emotionally, but really he’s been the key throughout all of this story. So, our heroes, led by the princess of course, go on this longer journey to gain the Chrono Trigger (Which can bring someone back from death by rewriting time itself) and also gaining something with the power to use it. They also have to bring his body to a tree that’s an absolute PAIN to get to. But when they do finally revive him, his revival leads to a cutscene where everyone sits, crying because they finally brought him back. It also forces the team to realize that they’ve already used their one second chance to actually do something like save one of the time travelers, so this time they have to be absolutely perfect with the fight against Lavos.
What if you're writing about undead characters? Vampires, ghosts, zombies, etc.
Death is kinda part and parcel of their character arc.
Just saying.
@@hyperdragon001 there are always exceptions depending on execution. I've been watching the venture brothers, it's a good show
Spoilers
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I love how the 2 main characters Hank and Dean died in the season 1 finally just to find out next season they'll alive due to cloning, and this is about 14th time they've died in universe.
But all the clones died fighting in the season 3 finally battle leaving Hank and Dean only having one life left.
@Darling Vexa Art The Phoenix feather is what you mean and is just a gameplay mechanic that doesn't exist or atleast does not have the same effect in the canon storyline. If you would have to take gameplay mechanics in mind for most Jrpgs or most party based rpgs in general you couldn't ever kill someone because all of them have items to revive party members in game. And i don't see a solution to this unless you implement perma death which in turn would make most rpgs really damn frustrating.
HelloThereMeatloaf
But venture bro’s isn’t a serious show, it’s doesn’t have any stakes, so resurrection doesn’t ruin anything.
Dude I’m so glad you talked about Veronica. That entire sequence in Arboria fucking hurt my heart.
I haven't seen that salt clip in years. Brings back good memories...
I love persona 3 alot and feel like it handled death rather well (especially considering how other modern persona games tend to handle it), although every iteration other than the original release of p3 has fucked that up since by allowing you to bring theme back.
Death has become so meanigless in Dragon Ball. I love that the Abridged series reflects that with the characters nonchalant attitude towards death.
Btw, I think Naruto is a much bigger offender of "Death by Flashback". And it pulled off the trope well, but by Shippuden it was getting ridiculous...
@Bruno Linares
that's why i love it whenever a character who i love has SO MANY DEATH FLAGS
that i actually mourn for the character before they even close to dying
they are facing against a powerful villain
they sustain deadly wounds and at a death's door
than they have the flashback to their backstory
their entire life flashes before their eyes
than though a miracle or something they remembered from their life
they escape and live to tell the tale
A good example of character death not actually having that big of an impact on the story would be Madness Combat. During 1 through 6, it's made out to be that Hank can just come back since he always shows up perfectly fine even after getting shot or blown up with a self sacrifice grenade. Then 7 rolls around making it seem as if Hank met his demise only for 8 to have him get revived at the cost of another character Deimos to give up his life which was treated as a bit of a shock to his wingman Sanford who was pretty pissed at the big bad who was behind his death, but then this Is where things start to get interesting. One of the first shorts after the end of 10 follows in a strange place where it operates on something akin to purgatory after we see Deimos alive and well trying to find a way to escape some fire fight. We then find out though the shorts that the place is a sort of combat training area that also fuses the pain and fears of how the person met their demise while trying to harden them mentally and physically. The last short has Deimos get an upgrade before another character brings him back while also resulting in "hell" getting dragged along. Basically no one stays dead and they just keep getting stronger or more skilled as main characters also get stronger with experience or from coming back from the dead.
I find it ironic when writers or critics try to use the boast anyone can die as a positive of work. When everyone is a red shirt, their is no one worth investing in. People don't get attached to characters hoping they will die, and claiming that death is to be expected only makes it so that almost none of the characters will have a satisfying conclusion to their issues. So you end up ignoring any traits you might related to because the author is not above killing the character for feels bait. Death should never feel like emotional manipulation.
The worst example I see of this is the redemption equals death trope, because you basically let the character off the hook by letting them die rather than forcing them to live with the issues their poor choices would have made. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the trope. But story wise it's often an easy out for writers who feel they can't do justice to writing a morally bankrupt character getting a moral compass while giving appropriate weight to their misdeeds.
I disagree that the possibility of literally anyone dying means no one is worth investing in. Reality can be harsh and unpredictable. It's up to the writers to make characters worth investing but still having stakes high
@@vovabars1234 So long as the deaths don't end up feeling like blatant feels baiting, or the deaths are not downplayed to the point of making the character seem worthless. Even then, there is a reason I prefer fantasy over realistic fiction.
@@sharkjumpingwalrus6744 I can see your point
I think there can be a fun twist with the death of robots: The "mental" reset. Sure, they can be rebuilt, and they can have a persona file backed up on another system to boot her OS into, but imagine the loss of the history with the character. One is familiar with all the deeds, actions, and tragedy of the character and to the other, a complete stranger.
Anyone else feel this way?
Being fair for Dragonball, there tends to be rules for resurrection and any time they're subverted, it's often because the characters involved have to find some way to get around it (like Freeza having to be revived in a tank because he was reduced to chunks in his last death, and it had been over the year limit of revival (from which the Dragon basically brings them back... in the state that they died), meaning he needed special treatment immediately after resurrections to not die again or the entire plot of the Namek saga having to do with the earth dragon balls not working anymore due to what happened in the previous saga).
not to mention the main threats in DBZ tend to be ones that... well, if you can't stop them or their plans, you can't really just fix with a wish on the Dragon Balls. Either because the forces involved are too strong for them or... well, there's no earth and, thus, no dragon balls to use. Or everyone's just dead period.
Jojo is a bit of an exception because the character (usually villian) about to die serves a point to address the theme. For example bruno's flashback before "death" was the illustrate one of the first examples of someone being a victim of fate, the theme of the season. For Caesar it was to add more to the spirit of being strong willed and selfless, something Joseph needed to learn in order to defeat kars.
I wanna be a writer someday so I watch a whole lot of these video essays to learn everything there is to know about tropes like this. When applied to my own amateur story, I’m pretty sure my character deaths work for what they set out to do. Then again, I only have my own immediate feedback, so I should get some differing opinions.
andrew hussie: I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that
hey now, homestuck has good writing to offer. which I swear was done just for ironic purposes.
@@spark9189 tis a joke, I do see where you're coming from doe
"Death is not necessarily good writing"
Me, staring at anything I've attempted writing: "So that's why there's so much death. I'm just a bad writer."
As someone who has spent alot of time writing as a hobby, this is perhaps the greatest realization I had to make. Looking back over my old stuff, I made so many mistakes, chief of all being way too many shock deaths. But I kept at it and slowly realized where my flaws lay and while I dont think I am a good writer even now, I can say with confidence I am a better writer than I once was.
And that is really why one should stick with it. Realizing ones flaws is the first step to improvement.
In many of my personal writings, it's not even shock deaths. Most of the time they're just... There. Often as to progress something or make a character realize something. The closest thing to a 'shock death' I've had was in a older story of mine and it was mostly to get a reason to stop writing that specific thing. I didn't just hand wave it of course and put some reason behind it and made it reasonable, but honestly looking back it was pretty horrible.
Now, while I'm still not a legendary writer, I'd say I'm probably at least getting above average almost.
Same. I remember reading a manga that is just a fight manga about fighting each chapter someone dies since it's basically a fight to the death kind of manga.
Anyway in the second chapter there was this character named Adam. I really liked him cause he was cute and I liked cute anime boys since I'm just that type of girl.
He ended up being really cool and likeable. He had cool lines like "what reason does someone have to protect their children" I really liked that one and his reason for fighting since the manga is basically a tournament of humans v gods.
Anyways he was a really cool and badass character and I found myself rooting for him the whole fight.
Anyways he ended up dying. In a bizarre way but I legit ended up crying. Never in any shonen manga I've so far read has that happened. Not even in videogames buy tbh I don't play videogames that much.
I didn't cry my eyes out but I did tear up. I was super sad and salty about it too. His death was pretty good. Kinda like giving us hope then taking it away. But also not really because at the end of the day it did something good for the universe of the manga.
Really sucked because he was doing so good at the begining too. But I mean he lost because he died but he still got Zeus on his knees. Still.
A lot of people who read that chapter really liked it so much it got them into the manga. It was such a fucking cool chapter like Adam was so fucking cool.
But like the day he died was just *chefs kiss* perfect. Like it gave you a feeling of hope only to hit you with despair when you realize that Adam was like dead. Not to mention the madlad had been fighting even when dead. I don't know if it has something to do with how his body was made or he's simply that cool but wow it was like so despairing to realize that. Kinda makes me upset that I found the manga or even read it. Not cause it was bad, it was good. Just made me sad. That's how you do a good death if you ask me. Get the character attached to the character, give them a false sense of hope and then hit them with the biggest despair. Don't just kill them but have their death be done in a way it's shocking but helps the story and actually serves a purpose.
The name of the manga is shuumatsu no valkyrie
@Darling Vexa Art You mean assassin classroom right? What's the characters name?
@@Ellie-bj2uw no I think it’s Riddle story of devil.
@@AtelierGod True. That is just as possible.
In the first episode of Tower of Druaga anime, a whole bunch of tropes get parodied in what turns out to be a dream sequence of the main character who got knocked unconscious, one such parody is the deaths of several characters who on top of enraging the main character, are also prefaced by said characters dropping what they are doing in the middle of a fight to announce their intentions to get married "when this is all over". It happens about 3 or 4 times iirc
I feel enlightened a bit after seeing how they handled Batman’s death in the new Suicide Squad game. It had no impact and it was a massive “fuck you” to the character since he went out with a bullet to the skull. An example of how a death is done great is Arthur Morgan’s. His legacy was still brought up by John and his family even years after he died from his sickness/got shot or stabbed by Micah, and his death is actually impactful cause he helped John get him and his family to safety.
(Spoiler warning for Moulin Rouge)
An instance of a good death I found in a film or media was in Moulin Rouge (the 2001 film with Ewan McGregor in it).
At the beginning of the film, the film starts with Christian a year older than when the story happens, where he established that he lost Satine, the girl he loved.
At first, you can think that he lost the girl to another love interest.
Then it's established that Satine has an illness and she has to sleep with the Duke.
Then later on in the film it's established that she's dying slowly, so slowly you kind of start piecing together that she died, but you still assume that she died after she had the night with Duke or having her happily ever after with Christian.
All while this is happening, there's a love Vs lust storylind going on (she loves Christian but she has to sleep with the Duke right after opening night).
At the end of the film, Satine does the play and Christian invades the play while evading death, and soon enough, they end up singing their personal love song, but then right after the play, she just dies, like, while in the arms of Christian.
I find it cool that in the film neither Christian or the Duke won, they both lost because Satine died due to her having an established condition, and the film plays on the expectations of what happened because the film jumps back and forth between 1899 Christian and 1900 Christian.
The movie then ends with 1900 Christian remembering that Satine told him to write the story of their love, and so he did. And that's the end of Moulin Rouge.
I really like the film and how it handled a death scene.
Go watch Moulin Rouge. It's good.
I don't understand why writers and story tellers feel that killing a character off is the best way to progress a story. There is so much things to do with a character instead of just killing him. For example, let's say a likeable side character went through his arc or maybe is completing it, instead of killing the character you can change or alter the character in such a way that he becomes somebody completely new, maybe let him/her go through severe trauma which causes him to completely turn 180, maybe let them leave the group/party in search of their own dreams and desires or maybe injure them so that they bring new challenges to the story.
There are so many ways a writer can work with characters, especially with characters that seemed forgotten or characters that completed their main mission or goal.