Arguments against Modern Tetris Tier List
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- A tier list of arguments against modern VS Tetris. I was going to just talk about a few of the things I thought were flaws in the game, but after struggling to figure which ones to include, I decided it'd be more fun to make a tier list. Hope you enjoy!
This video was picked by my patreon supporters over at / garbocan_ . Consider going there if you want to support the channel and youtube uploads, as I plan to be more consistent in the coming months.
go watch my twitch at / garbocan_ . I stream every day at 7PM PST.
Also, link to the discord fourwi.de/ . If you want to discuss the content of this video or tetris in general, this is a good place. - Hry
for each of these I will explain why they're not s tier
1 entry in a tier
I tried it but it didn´t work? Crashed right away.
this is why you should play sprint instead
We should normalize sprint races rather than vs tetris due to all these problems. This would solve the action reaction problem and the always 100% problem. Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster.
@@lester4532 But why wouldn't you already be going as fast as you can? I'm not very good at Tetris, so just let me know if there's some high-level thing I'm missing.
@@lester4532 Please do not take my comment as offense, more like an honest reply covering my thoughts about replacing modern versus battles with sprint races. I appreciate you take the time to come up with solutions!
...
I think sprint races do solve some problems, but they also come with some disadvantages which in my opinion weigh more than the problems they solve.
"Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster." You could say the same thing about modern versus tetris right now. In addition, this is not necessarily the 'action-reaction problem' described in the video. If your opponent plays faster, you should play faster too. In sprint, that's what you would have done anyways.
"This would solve the always 100% problem."
I think this is a valid point. The whole battle contributes to the win condition.
Lastly, when you do a sprint race, there is no interaction with each other, other than mentally. The thing is, you can't change the state of the game of the other player. When you do a real versus battle it needs to have interaction. Your actions should have an impact on what your opponent does and can do and vice versa.
It shouldn't be a who is faster battle. It should be a battle where all skills are being tested which makes the game more versatile and more fun.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
@@NoFontNL Don't worry. No offense taken.
@@NoFontNL or maybe, we could try mixing sprint and vs? Like garbage will still be sent a KO won't finish you. Instead it will just pull back your progress.
I feel like there’s a lot more to Tetrio than just down stacking and not timing at all, which culminated in CZ, who is able to balance mindless offense and defense at the top levels. CZ makes subtle decisions based on his opponents board, which has led to CZ being able to body Firestorm when Firestorm tried to APM spam and cheese spam in different sets.
Cz handcams are the best Tetris handcams
if apm is all that matters blaarg would literally never lose
Body SuperVinlin
i don’t like tetrio who decided that squares should move when rotated
@@LeWolfYTbut they don't? O-spins are only a thing is custom games with custom settings.
Fun fact: in 3:38 the two pages in the memorization game book are
1. Stickspin pc solutions
2. Gamushiro stacking
Just a fun thing i found
should've been stickspin and bt loop lol
@@Pakkens_Backyard bt loop is easy
gaht damn 2 years later its the same thing but more efficient versions, those are
SDPC and MS2
@@gravityshark580 lol
I think the s tier arguments are a but over stressed, and Tetris is still a very fun, skill based and nuanced game despite them. It is easy to see some of the arguments and think that Tetris vs is a boring game with critical flaws that make it unplayable, but that is simply not true. Besides, there is always an official client or clone that fixes some of these problems and leave in others. Edit:fixed some confusing wording
center 4 wide is still busted on slower modes because nothing can offset the damage if stacked high enough. combos need a nerf in official clients. it's boring watching people c4w in ppt tournaments.
@@anversailles I'd argue it's not combos that are the problem, but c4w in particular. 3w, 2w and s4w can all be dealt with a quick, early burst of damage (which isn't too hard as a DT cannon is 11 lines), but c4w can tank 17 damage and still survive. The solution to this is, in my opinion, to make it so any mino entering row 22 or above results in a top out, so c4w can be kill spiked. That way, combo setups can be nerfed without messing with the combo table.
@@PragmaticAntithesis have you heard of stckspin
TGM's combo system would be an elegant solution to this; singles keep your combo but in order to actually add to it, you have to clear 2 or more lines, so by making it so that single combos can't send attacks
this would invalidate 4-wides in its entirety
@@dmas7749 how about singles into tetris/tspins still spike but to get an actual combo you need doubles. So there is like a variable saying if combo into tetris multiplyer
Two of the top 3 issues were solved in Tetris Friends, more specifically the Battle mode. In Battle, garbage lines were not able to be cleared by themselves, and rather needed the player to send their own garbage lines to disappear, solving the downstacking issue. In addition, games ended after a set number of KOs, meaning that more events throughout the game would all lead up to the ending, and the pressure would be built up as you got closer to a loss. That solves the intensity issue.
Too bad Tetris Friends and Tetris Battle no longer exist.
Notris Foes exists!
tetris battle didn't even have an actual human opponent. it was not a good mode
@@pc31754 yeah but it fun (also doesn't Worldwide Combos have something like that? i think it's bombs and not flat but that doesn't send garbage either)
@Вероника Заглотова bepohnka 3arnotoba
@@pc31754 oh hey it's the boom tetris for jeff guy
How does the Zone in Tetris Effect: Connected apply to the arguments?
I personally think that the Zone actually has potential for an interesting action-reaction interaction since you can create a lot of pressure just by building the meter up faster than your opponent, and your opponent has to react by putting a Zone meter and combo to match yours, like chain set-ups in Puyo Puyo. If you are late, you will just die to a massive line attack, or be seconds behind in building a second zone meter for the opponent to use and win the game. It can also be used as a clutch recovery tool, so that's even more interactions between players.
It also creates a deviation from being always 100% because of the execution of the Zone combos being in a tight window. It creates this moment in the match when the players are even more focused than normal so as to not mess up the combo and lose. It's also interesting to watch as a spectator because the Zone looks and sounds distinct and amazing, and catches your attention very easily.
Lastly, the Zone also heavily rewards upstacking for building Zone combos.
Honestly, building the Zone meter up almost feels like building up a special meter in a fighting game, which is always going to be a crowd pleaser. The only problem would only be how fast it is to fill a Zone in high levels of play, so maybe the rate of it filling should be reduced.
The only real problem would be that this takes rewarding fast tetris to a whole new level at high levels of play.
I'm not a very competitive tetris player, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but I am just curious here.
I was actually super interested in zone in the beginning, there's quite a few things that it fixes or helps solve in this list, mainly always 100% as you mentioned. I think the reason I don't like it is because the gameplay gets kinda monotonous, with garbage pretty much only being exchanged through big back and forth zones. But flaws aside, I'm very happy that there was an attempt to shake up the formula, and I hope that more things like zone battle happen in the future.
'qmk is downstacking, yes he's in fact downstacking' -garbo
“yes, downstacking, very good- yes very good downstacking” -garbo
I have to disagree with the no interaction one. Imo acting according to your opponent’s board is a big part of the game. Because there are choices to make offensive, defensive, or upstacking plays accordingly. If your opponent makes a missdrop when high, you want to send fast garbage, if low you want to stack up for a winning blow. When you are high and down stacking, sometimes you don’t want to send t-spins and tetrises since they are gonna be sent right back at you. I would say these strategies are the reason I am doing better than others at my speed and even apm.
I think the point is, the problem is that you can just not care about what your opponent is doing a lot of times, and the Puyo comparison he brought up is v good
yeah i was recently decked by a player going half my speed but just playing smarter than me
"modern tetris is all memorization" -SBSD
isnt that the account garbo used to troll the tetris subreddit
as a very casual player, it's really cool to hear your insights into Tetris as a competitive game
fr tho it is
Rip Xynix. She didn’t deserve to be roasted so hard
One trick 😔
I'm not entirely convinced by the S tier arguments. I don't think a game being 100% all the time is necessarily bad-- sure, tetris matches don't really have coherent "beginning, middle, end" like most other games do. That seems fine to me though. Not all genres of games need to do that. Tetris multiplayer is still very fun nonetheless.
And the action-reaction part doesn't seem entirely true either; some decisions about being more defensive/offensive depend on the state of the opponent's board / how much garbage you seem to be receiving.
Saying that tetris doesn't have much depth seems flawed. A game doesn't need to have depth everywhere. Tetris, I think, has quite a bit of depth with how complex t spins and efficient downstacking is.
id argue that tetris absolutely has a coherent opening and mid/end
I think it's not always 100% since the pieces softdrop speed become faster the longer the game goes
The advantage of action and reaction really only exists when the 2 players have similar pps. You can't really tune your board if you're opponent just plays faster than you can react.
So the solution is to play puyo right
Yep >:]
Yes, such a better and more fun game in the long run
@@insomniostudios4359 yes
if memorization was the most important thing in tetris then I'd be a tetris goddess since I'm a btcannon one trick lmao
Lol that's all you need though.
How good are you at the BT PC loop?
@@andrewprahst2529 my streak was 8 loops in a row but im somewhat slow at the PC since I have to think for some patterns
Maybe there's a reason why people play Swap in tournaments on PPT and not versus
Ethier that or they want people to be good at both so its more entertaining to watch since you swap between 2 different ones so it doesn't get boring
Maybe because is a PPT tournament, not a Puyo Puyo or Tetris one
Opinion with some minor background to it. I have thousands of hours in mostly modern day Tetris. And I have found that as a near top player Tetris effect connected has some of the best multiplayer modes. Each covers a base described in the video and tend to be very enjoyable. First it actually has different ways to play and I feel that is a thing no disused enough. A little variety means players can shift their play style or play the mode that they enjoy the most. Not to the mechanic portion. The zone battle does a really good job to force a more thought out reaction game. As saving or using or defending with the zone means that players have more meaning in each play. Next the score battle gives good pacing and reaction games from high level. firstly since games last for a few hundred lines it feels more that the continuous growth of score difference will lead to a victory. It also forces each player to watch the score and play more or less risky base off if they are ahead or behind. Lastly with a timer if the leading player tops out it could force mind games and a constantly changing strategy to end with a lead the last mode has most of the previous things but also adds a few skill changes that I feel are important to multiplayer Tetris. The biggest thing is that pieces can’t slide. This discourages stats like 4 wide building and cannon rushing because it is very hard to rotate a piece in the short time when the piece is in the right spot but not stuck. With these three modes all covering a major problem I would not be surprised in the future if more games start to follow these modes. If you have any questions feel free to ask and Thank you to anybody who read though this. thank you Garbo for the awesome content and Lastly sorry if anything is misspelled or has bad grammar I am writing this right before midnight after a long day.
Also, this video is awesome , never heard someone strongly talking about modern tetris this way, and its very interesting on the way you edit it. 10/10
why must you bully me in vid :(
i don't hate the player, i hate dpc
@@GarboTetris the wacky tournament run was very much due to mental game. notkaiyon destroyed me in winners finals and almost beat me set 1 of grands and brilatas generally knows how to counter me very well. the two just got really tilted and i lucked out.
Wot is dpc ?
@@Benmf 8 height pc (PC that requires 20 pieces, or 2 4height pcs) continuation that basically guarantees a TSD and third PC
@@jfan3049 Ooooh alright
at first I was going to object to the Always 100% claim, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that the only reason I watched competitive tetris was to marvel at their speed
Timestamps for those who need it:
0:00 Intro & Disclaimer
1:06 D TIER
1:15 [D] No Skill
2:15 [D] T-Spins Shouldn't Exist
3:26 C TIER
3:33 [C] Memorization Game
5:26 B TIER
5:37 [B] Combo System
7:26 [B] Too Fast
8:30 [B] RNG Game
9:30 A TIER
9:44 [A] Downstacking is OP
11:15 S TIER
11:28 [S] Always 100%
13:26 [S] Action and Reaction
I like this tier list a lot, nice video! Action reaction is exactly why I love watching Puyo even though I'm a Tetris player. Just gives the competitive side so much more depth. More akin to chess, where yes there are basic openings, but you have to react to the opponent carefully and decisively. Modern Tetris relates a lot to speedrunning/racing I feel like -- which is also fun and impressive!
T spins shouldn’t exist because I can’t do them yet
the only sound argument
A while back I was thinking about pacing and how it could be better. My idea was essentially a smash bros like system of garbage scaling based on how much damage you had received. Also similar to smash I thought that if you did this there could be both finishing and damaging strategies of play. For example maybe downstacking is effective at doing damage but not sending garbage so you focus on racking up damage then switching to t-spins to KO. Also thought this would work well with characters because things could be balanced differently. I never said much about this because my current understanding of the game limits me to very broad concepts but not actual implementation, but I think it’s kind of interesting.
Looking at the top 3 arguments, I agree, the reason I like Puyo more is because you accomodate garbage it never helps you, only the time advantage you might gain does garbage in Puyo allows you to take space from your opponent slow them down waiting on the reaction put them in a bad position or force a reaction, what often goes over looked besides how long a chain takes to resolve in Puyo is that the garbage animation itself is slow so even if you don't block your opponent you still have a way to control their speed everything almost every action you take in Puyo either directly or indirectly influences the decisions the opponent will make! However even in Puyo the random nature of garbage can inhibit skill, in some versions it drops in a fixed order so you can technically get to a point where you always know where it will land and by building correctly and watching your opponent you can judge whether you can take it or not instead of having to assume that you can't or risk it. You are rewarded for watching your opponent, you can punish even small weaknesses heavily and timing and decision making are rewarded more than speed, you are never rewarded with free resources for taking damage, taking damage is a punishment. Another thing that Puyo does which is good is giving both players the same pieces, this means that nobody is getting randomly screwed because if your opponent got a 12 you could have technically done the same, even if you stack differently.
This is really well made, good work!
You wanna know something that could make garbage a little more disrupting? Instead of 1 free space, make it 2. And they can't be connected to each other. That way you can't abuse it to get a free tetris and bouce back all the damage the opponent threw at you.
Maybe this is a bit excessive, but I think garbage should just be completely empty rows. This would make taking damage way scarier since there's no simple way to deal with it, especially with your stack in the way.
That doesnt make it more disrupting. It just makes downstacking impossible. It would actually make it less disrupting since if you receive a 4 line attack, you would need 2 I pieces which requires cycling around 14 pieces (7bag system means that you can only get 1 of every piece every 7 pieces). Needing to cycle through 14 pieces is extremely slow and you can send 2 TSDs with those same pieces, meaning that just ignoring the garbage will probably be a better idea since getting to the bottom of your board will take way too long.
If you mean, by not connected to eachother, that all sends will be cheese, that would just turn the game into an extremely scuffed cheese race. Or just simply apm game, since digging down will take too much time/skill.
Both scenarios just buff garbage to the point that clearing it would actually be inefficient. You're basically sending hurry up garbage (garbage without holes) because downstacking is 10x less reliable and consistent. Hurry up garbage is probably the least disruptive garbage possible. You dont need to change plans by cancelling your tspin setups.
@@jfan3049 You can just skim to downstack
@@BettyCastella how can you skim with 2 holes not connected with each other? the idea is simply ridiculous, the goal is to nerf downstacking, not completly erase it from existence
I think the problem with too powerful garbage is that its not worth the effort trying to clear it and instead focus on more burst damage to win
Super great vid, not only does it give strong arguments against these problems but it also gives insight to people that are trying to learn and grow as modern Tetris players
Imagine a mode where the speed limit changes as the game progresses
That sounds crazy
Nah bro sounds so weird there's no way that exists
The A and S tier complaints feel misguided to me. The video tries to present them as bugs when they're clearly features, and to address them you'd have to either introduce more randomness or fundamentally change the game, both of which would be bad.
I like that modern Tetris is so optimized that it's basically solved. I like that, unlike other multiplayer games like mobas or fgs, I can get on Tetris after not playing for months and everything is the same. They didn't "nerf" the t piece or some shit, or introduce new pieces, or oh look the meta has shifted because of several system changes.
this is well explained and presentation was clean, gonna start play Tetris more now.
The thing I love most about the Tetris Grandmaster series is just how well that series does pacing. It gradually climbs and builds up to 100 but you never start at full speed, and yes this is including Shirase and TA Death mode. It isn't quite as fast as modern SRS Tetris, even with World Mode, but it does a brilliant job with pacing. And in Versus Modes, garbage piling isn't the only attack opposing players can utilize, with powerups and punishment attacks taking some spotlight away. That isn't to say TGM isn't without its own problems (Mihara being a notorious perfectionist is certainly a double-edged sword) but it is very refreshing and impressive in its own right, and by God is it addictive. Really the biggest drawback is the learning curve.
i'm kinda excited of the new tetris effect versus game tho where there's this "zone" concept where thing stop, and you don't accept garbage until a zone meter runs out (you get zone as you farm for it by sending lines), so you can use "zone" as a reaction, also the garbage distribution in that game changes as the game prolongs (it goes by phase's so the first few minutes the garbage is usually clean garbage then as it progress it becomes a cheese garbage and the zone meter run's out faster) I'm sure you already know what it is but i just thought i'd explain some mechanics of it for others who's reading this because i know it's relatively new and at the moment so you couldn't add it in this argument.. but i think to me personally the "zone" concept is really nice it gives you a lot of option on how to use it for either defensive, stalling or attacking.
the only interaction with my opponent i have is comparing their vs to their pps to tell if it's a strider or cheeser and some rare timing
Fantastic video Garbo. Super informative.
Action/reaction is somewhat solved by Tetris effect's zone, since using the zone is a big enough (and important enough) action that requires either a reacting zone or a quick counter before they finish in order to ensure survival.
Garbo is a core professor of Tetris, no matter how controversial he is
This absolute madman just made an E in a tier list
The reaction argument is partially untrue. If I see an opponent doing PC or DTC setups, I can adapt by not upstacking instead and using their garbage against them. If an opponent relies too much on upstacking tetrises (higher PPS, but low DPS, doesn't use tspins), then I can do more tspins to kick them faster (as they can't keep up the "I" pieces). I'm SS in tetrio.
I think the same even tho I'm U rank
@@VichevJr arent u that guy in ktros’ comment haha
Timing against a stickspin user is pretty interactive too, upstack and tank the tss and tsd then cancel the tst-tsd burst with a tetris or tspin into downstack
@@natsuki8845 Yes 😂🤣
Congrats on 5k subs garbocan_
As an NEStris player who has some experience with Modern Tetris (Sub-1m 40L Sprint is about as far as i went when I played Jstris), people complaining about RNG in Modern Tetris is so funny to me. Seriously, you guys have it good with 7-bag.
Really appreciate the comparisons to smash bros and other games, and I agree that Tetris is a poor spectator game. For those not invested in Tetris, it can be really hard to follow.
:O the legend himself
sirjeivus is alive!
:O
It’s like chess, if you don’t understand what’s happening you’ll be unenthusiastically excited about an outcome
I think the combo table is in a very deserving tier. I actually love the combo table as it is because skilled downstacking one line at a time should be rewarded with good attack instead of nothing. The main flaw is the optimization from 4wide and strats similar to it. great tier list over all
Tetris Effect had an interesting mode in which random effects happen, such as flipping the board, disabling view of the queue, disabling holds, giant pieces, fractured pieces, inverting the input directions... I could ask about what if those kinds of effects could happen in competitive Tetris, where idk, you had a window of time to make a higher score than your opponent to make they be the one who takes the effect.
My skill level is currently A- on tetrio, so I cant talk much about those arguments, but I do feel like the game is just fine how it is, I like how the game is intense at anytime given, and how the garbadge can scare me, like, I either take the risk to upstack a lot, or play safe by only downstacking whenever I recieve garbadge
I feel like for the "Always 100%" argument, one possible way to *increase* tension overtime is by having *permanent garbage lines* acting as a tier of garbage above the ones which can be destroyed. When you are about to receive critical amounts of garbage (Say above 10 lines at once), instead of just receiving a vomit of garbage lines all at once, you instead receive a smaller amount of unremovable garbage lines, gradually minimizing your options and forcing you to adjust your strategy when you have less space to attack, using what space you have left to deal a finishing blow to the opponent.
This could also help address how downstacking can pretty much return any game back into the starting, neutral state, as its efficacy naturally wanes over time.
As for the "Action - Reaction" argument, I feel like some games could experiment with a *shared queue* mode where both players receive pieces from the same queue, which could be a *14-bag randomizer* rather than a 7-bag randomizer. *The first person who places their current piece receives the next piece in the queue,* which means every piece you place directly affects the future course of action that your opponent has to take in order to work with the piece they get. While this also fundamentally changes the predictable, consistent nature of 7-bag randomizer which allows for super fast Tetris gameplay, it might help make each round feel more unique, as players of differing speeds, strategies, and preferred blocks now have to worry about their opponent's strategy and skills, and how that affects their chances to receive the piece they need to finish their set up.
Unfortunately, this concept might not work in an online setting, because connection latency will affect the response time of the queue, and thus make the game function weirdly for both players.
Wake up babe, new Garbo video
I disagree with the notion that it's not fun to watch. The fact that it's always 100% makes for more nail-biting, edge-of-your-seat action.
puyo puyo tetris in the background for retention lmao it worked on me
zone battle boss attacks against your final argument: ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT
My biggest problem with tetris isn't on this list, although you actually talked about it a lot. I dislike that tetris gets less fun as I improve.
Huh, its the opposite for me
@@Benmf I guess I could be a little more specific. Going from no skill to moderate and even relatively high skill was a lot of fun. But I'm now at a point where I feel like the fun parts of the game aren't rewarded and I must play the game in ways I don't enjoy in order to get more wins. The reward system seems misaligned with the fun.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand that sounds like a continuation of other points honestly, what you find fun is pretty subjective and I’d wager a guess that your idea of fun probably conflicts with the “downstacking is op” argument
@@CaboozledPie It's precisely the opposite; because downstacking is OP, the game implicitly punishes you for upstacking any more than is necessary to get a few t-spin doubles and singles. Fancy setups like dt cannons, trinities, triple-double attacks, etc. are some of my favorite things in tetris, and doing them *decreases my winrate,* because ordinary t-spin doubles and singles are more efficient and can be done while downstacking through garbage.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand we actually completely agree I think I just misworded myself LOL
you do find the more greedy setups more fun, which is what I expected
Yea i would agree with some of the stuff here. To keep it a bit short, theres a sort of "spike meta" especially in tetrio, which also coincides with downstacking with garbage you just recieved.
This might be because effeciency isnt rewarded much, other than downstacking. You have t-spins, and tetris'. Effeciency with those attacks caps at a certain level, and the only other skill to attack would be speed.
Garbage is very random/uncotrolable, and monotone, (being each attack has a base amount of garbage lines it sends, and each line of garbage is randomly dispersed with a one block hole).
Having no control of how garbage is sent other than how many lines were sent also makes a bigger focus on spikes and speed, and loses potential on efficiency with how garbage could be sent.
(Talking about position in the board and shape/size of garbage holes).
This also kind of connects to tetris games not really having any type of changing game-plan, as most of the time, its to play fast, and send lines.
Gameplan never changes too much depending on the opponent's board/attacks. Only whether you should pressure/upstack, or defend/downstack.
(This paragraph if you can call it that is very sloppy and just words typed with no real structure, but some thoughts.)
I feel like the downstacking issue can be addressed by disabling combo garbage once you clear garbage lines. It would turn garbage into an obstacle again, instead of a resource.
I don't play tetris, just saw this video tweeted out. I can tell you put a lot of effort in it so take my like + comment. Interesting, I didn't know there was a crowd of people against this modern tetris. FGC is the same way with it's modern fighting games haha.
What about the "lack of in-game tutorials about the various techniques of modern Tetris" argument? In which tier should it be on, considering that almost all modern Tetrises behave as if all players are already aware of the presence of t-spins, fully understand the SRS mechanics, they know by what rule tetrominos will appear on screen? Because at the moment, somehow more or less clearly, this is all trying to explain only in PPT games, the rest of the games will not even hint that for this information you will have to be looked for on Harddrop/Four.lol wiki's
My dad would always say that the hold function was terrible, until he tried tetris 99 marathon and would constantly ask me to remind him which button hold was
Any thoughts on using different randomizer? Something like 14 bag would shake the meta quite a bit, most of the openings won't work and it would increase stacking difficulty without being absurdly detrimental like memoryless one. I would also love to see some all-spin highlevel plays, i still don't get why is that t-pice is singled out from the rest. And final thought: why is everyone so adamant to have garbage with 0 mesiness whenever possible? While being somewhat random, PPT messy garbage also nerfs downstacking, and you can't instantly send tetris back to your opponent, isn't that great?
I have a question. So in some tetris games, if someone sends you garbage (tetrio for example) when you clear a line you dont receive any garbage unless you dont make a line clear but in some games (ppt for example) even if you clear a line, you receive garbage from an opponents attacks (unless its swap). How much do you think that effects some games in tetris?
8:36 I think this is a stronger argument in classic tetris honestly. It has been proven that if you get alternating S and Z pieces, you will top out, no matter how well you play.
As a VS player who cant get a sub 1 min on keyboard and a sub 55 on stick. I think that everything above B tier is fair to argue
I've been playing modern Tetris since a little while before Tetris Friends went under, so going on 3 years in a few months. I mainly play Tetrio, PPT, Tetris 99, and Tetris Effect Connected, but have kinda dropped off of PPT over the past months. I mainly play on Switch, and I don't consider myself to be "good" based on the overall standards, but I can do decently well in lower levels of ranked modes. At this point in time, I think that TE:C (Zone Battle specifically) is the best modern Tetris versus game, just because it is different from other modern Tetris games. You need to pay attention to how the other player is using their Zone meter and use your Zone to the max efficiency to counteract the opponent. The combo table was completely overhauled BECAUSE of the Zone, and on top of that, strategies like 4-wides can be more easily fought against with the Zone. It fixes some of the bigger problems with the modern formula, and some might say it doesn't really qualify because it does have Zone, but I think that's just a bit silly honestly.
Always 100% could easily be fixed with margin time, as then the game will get more intense as the game goes on. This would even make placement much harder, as even quick singe-line clears could become fatal, making reacting to your opponents board much more important.
In my experience, margin time usually only results in more rng-affected outcomes. As the gravity/garbage increases, the main priorities are to play it safe and downstack the extra garbage received - favoring the player with the luckier garbage.
For action and reaction, I really love Shared Queue, it's really fun* to play and watch
*And stressful
What do you think about Tetris Effect?
It’s slower so not pro’s choice, but it might just not a bad thing as the video mentioned.
So here is a question. My experience with guidline based vs tetris is limited, but there is something that was intuitive to me, and yet seems not to be the case. Why is garbage not just the exact lines you cleared, save for the last piece?
inf ds when they meet top players sending them 50 lines in 2 seconds
Tetrios competitive side is fun to watch bc the first too system instead of one game, and aswell as that some x players are slow for a x but have incredible set up knowledge and pc knowledge which adds more depth to the game. Also chess has a lot of memorization involved and i think its only natural for a puzzle game like tetris to end up with memorization involved
i don't play online tetris, i am a TGM player and i think tetris works best in a single-player environment
i would switch memorization and T-spin arguments, putting T-spins in B-tier
for combos, i would adapt TGM's system, where singles keep your combo, but don't advance it. i think the alternatives you provided are arbitrary
high speed i would put in C-tier, its one of my favorite things about non-classic Tetris, but i'm a TGM3 main so that's obvious
down-stacking in B-tier, yeah its overpowered but not in a way that destroys the game, still very skill-based and there's still a lot of risk-reward in tetris so having a safe strat isn't exactly a bad thing
not sure where to put 100% intensity but not S-tier, i love the volatile nature of the game and how you can lose it all to one misdrop, but there's still potential for crazy comebacks
How about adding a health bar or something and damage along with garbage lines? Or permanent garbage after receiving a certain amount of garbage lines? So you would have a reason to upstack, because you want to preserve your hp more, more interaction, downstacking is less important and actual build up. Maybe it's a shitty idea but I think it would be fun to at least try as an alternative game mode.
idk man theres just something so satisfying about loading up tetrio and spamming PCO and just deleting the other person from existence its so funny
Actually I think that they should make it so each type of spin is viable (except stupid ones like o-spin) so the meta is not monotonous, it would be pretty fun to see L/J-spins meta or S/Z spin meta. Oh yea and I actually have an idea of building a literal deck from the tetraminoes pentaminoes or other mino and each type has the cap of how much you can have.
I always thought of tetris as a stamina game, i dont really feel different playing pvp than solo
One solution for the downstacking problem could be making garbage progressively messier towards the end game (or the opposite).
have you seen tetris effect: connected phases
@@Master-dy7sh nope. Does this game have that?
@@rafaelgabrielgarlinidal-bo9496 no it's exclusive to te:c although it's very demanding on equipment anad costs money
In some ways "Always 100" argument sounds like "I hate my opponent making dramatic comebacks"
It just happens everywhere. Just a bit more often around here. At least in my experience.
What if when you send garbage the garbage hole is related to where the well was when you cut? It would promote looking at the other side build, disruptions, mind games etc
The pacing is the reason why I stick with Classic Tetris and play only Marathon in Modern, it's too fast.
SS tier: tetrio sucks and nobody plays anything else
Lol 😂
Not everyone. I refuse to bail on Tetris 99 for many of the reasons listed.
I would rather play ppt if it didn't have 5000 other problems lol
I think memorization game should come higher as openers give yourself a extremely high advantage in the early game and potentially ko the opponent in the first few pieces and not need to learn midgame
yes
I think that combos should work like sega tetris naomi. Where you get a combo only if the type of match is the same as the last, so for instance, 2 tetrises would give a combo, but not a tetris and a tspin
I disagree with the action/reaction argument. It could just be because of the way I play, but when I start, I begin with upstacking a 2 wide. After that, one of two things happens either I complete my 2 wide set-up and attack first, or my opponent strikes first. When that happens, I "React" by downstacking.
"There aren't really any ways to disrupt your opponent."
Soooooo what I'm hearing. Is to bring back the versus power-ups FROM TETRIS FRIENDS BABYYYYY.
So let me try and destroy all of these!
D tier (4/14 points worth, which is rather to fall to inexistant E tier): skill issue, just gut gud! (overwhelmed, seriously, it doesnt need anymore, try learning starts etc)
T-spins shouldnt exist... (3/14, this one is Absolute worst... F+ rank for that arguement): so you mean we should make game like an old one, so it will be even less skill based, so we couldnt pull off good moves to feel satisfactory? That is just rude... (overwhelmed, no eff)
C tier:
Memorization... (4/14, E tier imo): seriously? Okay, it has a point, but no need to try and memorize them... It is actually better to go for the pc to get 10 lines of attack to your opponent... So it wont matter in midgame late game and early one as well... (overwhelmed)
B tier:
Combo System (6/14, D tier problem for me...):
There is something unusual about this... It is really risk for reward thing, c4w needs to survive early all out pc rush so it cant be denied that you either make them suffer quickly or deny using this strat from the start... It is all up to you and your playstyle... (overwhelmed).
Too fast (5/14, E+ tier for me): it is no matter for a player, if he can play really efficiently and just fast enough to not starting to fall behind, just think a little through and create wonderful chains and combos to actually overwhelm and reverse sweep opponent, dont hope to outplay just with style, play it also fast, it is either up to adaption of different styles after all, which makes game not so ordinary like older versions of tetris (fair enough I think)
Rng based (7/14, D+ tier 4 me): to be fair it is all True, but it also prevents you and your enemy to create combi out of trash lines, as they are supposed to sabotage you, making downstacking not too op, just as all things should be, c4w is not that op as I stated, it needs a big preparation and a bit of luck. (overwhelmed)
A tier... :
Downstacking (10/14, B tier, finally worthy of fighting):
Basically the explanation for this is one phrase "defense is a best offense". And while is that correct, it is also a myth in modern tetris. Seriously, if you expect yourself to proficiently downstack, then you are taking on a risk to get rushed with garbage, while also having a risk to send low amount of trash because it needs you to not either block trash gap and also requires to make sure that you will make a line most of the drops so you can both attack opponent and fend off yourself, otherwise I would agree on that statement of downstacking being good. Finally something that is worthy and hard to counterargue against. (fair enough, barely)
S tier... (this one should be tiring to win I guess...):
Always 100 (8/14, C tier): wait you want to say that no matter What happened before actually matters?
It does... Actually, when you want to try to go out for hitting those t spins or c4w using it have some outcomes for you either putting you to a deadly situation, to a narrow escape situation, or peaceful one where you can continue attack developing, this is a game of strat choice as it is almost like a paper Rock scissors game where you need to quickly respond to their strategy accordingly and make sure you are prepared for everything to put up a fight or even win, you cant just rely on one strategy used to carry you to the win, you need to be adaptive as any action can lead to a complete failure of a whole game or even a set. (overwhelmed)
Action-reaction (14/14, finally a well deserved reason, S tier):
Fairly it is a point of competitive side as you play player VS player, not having a tea with your family, it is either you stall for time thinking of appropriate action, or go fast to prevent more damage to you, so you cant just be a quick responding, it all can be taken calm without huge rushing, but mostly yes, you need to be fast, so this is the one I cant really overwhelm, it is just an arguement that is cant be denied as it is a competitive game, but it also requires of strategizing too, so you can still find slow thinking parts in game too.
(really toughest, as it is a fact, not just an arguement, only one that I underwhelmed for fair and good reasons)
I feel old. I played Tetris since it came out.
I would like to hear some ideas for solutions for the a and s tier Problems of the game
People can make tier lists about almost everything.
I'll make a tierlist tomorrow about how long I should hold my poop after the first morning coffee
For the downstack I use it on Effect and 99 sometimes I wait to get garbage and then I’ll use the combo slow down on Effect because I held up a long piece and I have two more coming in and lucky me I can send 3 Tetris back to back or at least 2 plus other combos helping me get perfectris
i was expecting more convincing arguments, honestly. Zone Battle broadly addresses the S-tier problems and i don't view "downstacking OP" as a negative at all. far from being limited to high-level play, it's the most common skill learned by casual tetris players, too. it makes the game more approachable and it rewards creativity.
Moreover, it is tetris at its core. The original singleplayer version consisted of nothing else. By all accounts it SHOULD be the core.
New upload pog
The action/reaction argument seems a little flawed.
There is interaction in the opening sequence to try to counter the opponent's opener itself. You have to learn that a TKI will prevent consecutive PCs, and that consecutive PCs will prevent middle 4W setups. It also follows that the middle 4W stops a simple TKI in its tracks.
I've seen some japanese players trying ultra setups like 3-6 splits to try to optimize for reactionary play where after absorbing a few lines worth of damage, they quickly send a tetris and t-spins for damage unhindered by incoming garbage, but I concede that the interaction is limited if any compared to other competitive genres like fighting games. I feel like the PPT skill battles might be an interesting direction to take tetris if spectators were to be taken into account. (PPT skill battles are kinda wack rn though...)
12:50 Snowballs for me are the perfect answer for leaving the game early. I would eat any Ban hammer if its for the sake of not being frustrated because of something I foresaw the start of the match.
Always 100% is a great argument but I'll tell ya what, when you come back 0-2, 4 or 6 the last game is the most intense thing of your life. Either that or it's been a close game the whole time and it gets down to 1 more match
in most of these things i was thinking how can you even fix these
Isn't there a version of Tetris where if you do better then stuff happens on the other person's screen like their controls get swapped or the piece that they're dropping gets swapped or something?
wtf
This doesn't have much to do with what's in the video, but I think it would be much more fun to watch if tspins weren't the only ones that sent garbage/counted for b2b. I think basically all spins in big bang should get bonuses and I'd like to see the new stacking styles that get invented as a result. Bonus points if they add in smash's "stale moves" for repeated spins so that to optimize damage you have to constantly adjust your board to make it accommodating to other spins instead of just "T."
_Tricky Towers_ seem to fix most of those problems. Someone just need to make a competitive version of it.
that game fixes these problems because they're completely different games, its barely even tetris
I'm in-between modern and classic tetris. I like how clean and finished modern tetris feels but features like ghost piece and holding I dont enjoy. My solution is just ignoring them and not using those features
Hey I'm trying to get into tetris again but tetris friends was closed down since I last played. What's the alternative for online play nowadays?
jstris.com
tetr.io
and tetris online poland (most similar to tetris friends, you have to download it tho)
puyo puyo tetris 2 (must buy)
tetris effect connected (must buy as well, the online is not out for pc yet)
this is why we need tetrio character system
characters.osk.sh