Introverted iNtuition - Ni - Telos - Explained Correctly
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- čas přidán 6. 12. 2022
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#introvertedintuition #cognitivefunctions #socionics #mbti #myersbriggs #imelements #intp #infp
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What I like most about your videos is the concrete precision with which everything is explained. No mystical, metaphorical, or suggestive explanations, but clear and well-defined concepts. I also appreciate the thoroughness of pre-emptively undoing potential confusions or contradictions. Thanks Jack and the warmest of congratulations for your new sleepy assistant!
Greatly appreciated!
"Aristotle asked about aretē (excellence/virtue) and telos (purpose/goal), and he used the metaphor that people are like archers, who need a clear target at which to aim.13
Without a target or goal, one is left with the animal default: Just let the elephant graze or roam where he pleases.
And because elephants live in herds, one ends up doing what everyone else is doing. Yet the human mind has a rider, and as the rider begins to think more abstractly in adolescence, there may come a time when he looks around, past the edges of the herd,
and asks: Where are we all going? And why?"
- Jonathan Haidt (The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom)
Thanks for releasing these videos, Jack. I found the sensation ones especially fruitful. I will check out the intuition ones when I get a sec. Someone like this comment so I'm pinged to come back as I've got to run some errands 😁
This is a great overview - one conceptual distinction that I really wish was addressed is the common misconception that Ni is regarded as equivalent to Time or the perception of Time (like Gulenko and other practitioners), rather than a separate process that Ni draws upon.
I think the best counterargument to this claim is the following (apologies in advance if apple analogies are excessive!):
1.) The formation of concepts and representations in the mind are unthinkable without Space and Time.
- Example 1: Two apples are distinct *as* two apples imply spatial separation, presupposing space.
- Example 2: A falling apple is in motion *as* a moving object because the spatial instances of one and the same apple are separated in time.
2.) The mind's perception of Space and Time presupposes an objective Space and Time in nature.
- Example 1: I can imagine an apple in my mind, but I had to have already experienced apple in some way to even conceive of it.
- Example 2: Say for instance I and another person went to the county fair. They had a blast and I didn't want to be there. They were disappointed because they felt like it happened very quickly whereas I was disappointed because I felt like I was there forever, but we were both there for the same amount of time. Our feeling of how much time has passed was different because how much attention we were paying to time was different ("time flies when you're having fun")
3.) Ni involves the perception and filtering of concepts and representations in the mind, which may or may not correspond to what's physically present. (Contrary to Ne, which generates new concepts rather than just passively imagining or filtering them)
Example 1: Apples, trees, horses and humans all exist in the universe and can also exist as concepts in the minds of people. Unicorns, Zeus, wizards and ducks with eighteen legs only exist in the minds of people (and not universally so), but not in the universe.
4.) An Identity relation is not a relation of Ground and Grounded, because Identity can only be identical to itself (A = A) and a ground / reason / cause for existence is not identical to what it grounds.
Example: If you were to ask what an apple is, I could give a correct, but uninformative answer "an apple". If you were to ask, what is the reason for an apple's existence, then I can give the accurate answer "an apple tree". An apple is not identical to the apple tree from which it grows.
5.) Therefore, Ni is not identical to Time
I forgot to talk about that. This was the fourth time I had tried to record it and I did mention 'time' in previous attempts :(
One of the best explanations ever, in my opinion. So insightful 😊
Thank you so much for this, it's the only accurate explanation I've seen out there, and the only one I actually see myself in. I'll check out the rest of your videos as soon as I can, cheers :)
"The valuing of T makes these types appreciative of some higher purpose or meaning to life that outlasts quality of life in the present. As such, these types detach from the mundane to think deeply about where life is heading or building up to, tracking their probable life path and trying to avoid distractions that can cause them to deviate from this path. An emphasis is placed on that which is transcendent, meaningful and profound in the long term, with these types cutting out daily luxuries and sacrificing alternative possibilities in favour of what will lead to the expected outcome. Instead of taking the view that many things could happen, these types are motivated by a sense of certainty, i.e. that certain things are inevitable and will happen no matter what".
extremely helpful and simple to understand explanations. thank you for this. looking forward to the other videos!
Olha só quem está aqui
@@heenr os vídeos do jack são muito bons, claro que estou aqui
Well done (says this Ni-dom) 👍
I liked how you went at disentangling misconceptions and even, at times, couching what is meant by certain circulating opinions. For example, "They may yet be curious, open-minded but about what's already in their path." So here you're arguing, sure, they may be *open-minded* though a different manner entirely than those who are just exploring in all directions, *new things*.
I also liked how you went on to hit the topic of the past in regard to Si & Ni. That Ni in regards to past, is not about your individual sensory experience but of past, the flowing currents of what's happened and therefore into what is going to happen in a more abstract macro instead of individual sensory. (I'm paraphrasing, but here I see you doing ironing out misunderstood functional traits with likely, reasonable logic.)
Also, I wouldn't play that hand of Ni being at odds with Ne so strongly, and I agree with your description of those functions in a vacuum. Though I'd disagree with the dynamic depicted, the linear black-and-white relationship is made an example by you.
The Ne could want to be guided, honed and controlled by the Ni. The Ne could be pissed, annoyed, and trapped by the Ni, and similarly reverse *can* be true. There are several ways an individual's attenuations could coincide or fall out. On the matter of how it could go for these differing functions, the same could be said about two Ne types wanting credit and wanting to lead the exploration. If they're Ne doms, I don't think they want to play second fiddle and follow along be the default and be *dragged* along the intuitive world. As dominant, as the hero role there I don't think this is at all rainbows and sunshine. The same can be said between the dynamic of Ne and Si or anything else. I wish you touched on that more and bit the reasonable bullet; otherwise great video, very sensible.
Ne and Ni can work together, this is true. However, that is the case within a person who has Ne or Ni as their Second function. For instance, an ENTJ will draw from both Ne and Ni in a fluid interplay. An ENTP will be consistently suppressing Ni in their pursuit of Ne.
If Intuition is in the First function, they aren't going to be interested in the inverse kind of Intuition. An Ne Lead and an Ni Lead will contradict each other's main focus. That is not to say that an Ne Lead and another Ne Lead won't also compete over the same space, they will, they just won't clash in quite the same way. One is a clash, the other, more a competition.
The relationships that are supposed to complement, rather than clash or compete, are ones where the types both value the same Elements, but they are not being pushed by the same person, so each yields in the area the other pushes. Duality does this, so does the Mirror relationship.
Of course both types of iNtuition marvelously complement each other, one can easily observe this irl. Only Socionics has it all backwards, with our Shadows being idealised as our "Duals" rofl That works on playmate-, colleague- etc level, not in intimate relationships.
thnx
I remember back in True generations, u said introverted intuition is about seeing things in the long run and comparing how things once were to how they are right now, having wanderings in your head. I hope this still applies to u?
Yes, I would have thought that was implied by the description in this video.
This is a cool video! I've been away from Socionics for a while, and it's nice to be back to it a bit- cool system!
So- I was wondering: while for MBTI Ni might be about ideas to a significant extent (as much as for Ne,, from what i can see), wouldn't it be right to say that for Socionics it's far more about plans and a sense of destiny? Thus in the conflict relation between an INTp and an ESFj, for example, it wouldn't be (from the INTp's side): "You are so shallow in these ideas I've deeply considered!", so much as a: "You never really consider the future, or the consequence of your actions!"
That's my understanding... am I right? Thanks! Again: cool video! Cool system.
Exactly right. There is also a key tension between Ne and Ni over being open to new ideas and perspectives vs. closing down possibilities to focus on those ideas and outcomes of weight and significance. The ideas that will go places long term.
@@WorldSocionics I like the way you put it: "Focus on those ideas & outcomes that... will go places long term"! Fascinating idea. That ties this notion of Idea &... Purposes(?) in a very interesting way, without conflating them.
(Makes me think, BTW, that in Socionics terms I decidedly favor something in the Si/Ne... range- I'm either an Alpha or a Delta; probably the former, since I see a lot of Ti in me. Even THOUGH, I think I have Ni/Se in MBTI. I like both systems in their different ways).
Wow, no wonder people type INFJs & INTJs as enneagram 4s even when they're another type! Enneagram 4 is the only enneagram/mbti type that describes disinterest in the mundane/trivial/insignificance of the present... yet it's also connected to being centered in one's emotions somehow!
I feel one of the biggest sins in typology history is typing arnold schwarzeneger as an ILI INTp which i presumed is
Becoz he kept saying “ im shooting for a goal” or was working a long term goal in bodybuilding and acting. Clearly he is an Se valuing individual who used a lot of physical strength, guts and will to be Mr universe in bodybuilding. Straight up Se dom. All the way to great actor n governor. Sheer will power
Hi Jack can you tell me please how the irrationality of a perceiving function can be understood from a rational point of view (infp or INFj in socionics) if its possible.
Well, to a Rational type, all Perceptions are going to occupy Supplying functions, while all Judgements are going to occupy Demanding functions.
That means, the Perceptions are going to be existing to support and fulfil the needs set by the Judgements.
It's the opposite for Irrational types, the Judgements serve the Perceptions.
In the case of the TRUE INFJ, with Fi in the Leading function, Ne will be in the Creative function, so like a flexible butler serving the commanding and dominant Fi.
you dont have to be tough as you say to get what you want fe can use persuasion or manipulation to achieve ones aims , strength and the ability to fight comes from your muscles not a cognitive function.
(perhaps the confidence and skill but not ability)
what do you think fighters use (strategy) its not all tactics and you are generalizing because ones experience or environment epigenetically can make some into a person of action especially due to trauma like with hypervigilance (we are not people of immediate action)
plenty of actors and athletes are ni doms , because to do something physically has nothing to do with function, perhaps the preference to do something physically but not ability, but rather valuing and having the energy for (meaning its setbacks and not just the ideal of it )
otherwise, one of the actual best descriptions very sexy ( the weight looks good on you , you were always a endomorph) the beard is hot( gingers are hot )
we are high on openness but its like what you said we are focused are on specific things
so , again we are open but that doesn't mean everything captures our attention unless we are interested in everything like as to create a theory of everything
thank you jack , for mentioned about the past and things like history i appreciated (and you mentioned the precognition /presentiment in your own way
i doubt anyone will get it as right as you of course good job
A lot of your quibbles are type related rather than Ni related, if that makes sense. Thanks. I thought I was more of a mesomorph though, I lose weight quickly.
My wife is definitely an endomorph.
@@WorldSocionics do you put on muscle easy is the thing , endomorphs aren't fat , a ectomorph can even be skinny fat .. also there are blends you could be a meso endo or a endo meso
you two are such a cute couple well paired.
yes i guess overall it would be type related but so would things like toughness, but then we would have to engage in what that means for you vs a simple objective answer because what's tough in the ghetto isnt tough in jail or the army
the same whats smart in school isnt always smart in the real world, but i assume you mean bravado and intimidation which i would agree , because im a great fighter and strong/fast but i sound stupid when i make physical threats or try to intimidate or force people to do things
i also do need strong volitions to push me to actions (like im forced to fight or have to protect someone but i will allow people to be pushy with me until it becomes abuse or i see it heading that way ,
especially in the mundane or simply something i dont see purpose in
anyway out of everyone online you have described ni better than anyone in a abstract way that still meets the demands of the concrete i appreciate your clarity as always jack stay sexy
@@WorldSocionics and shes beautiful, doesn't she work in nursing or something mental health related i know she must be swamped with covid and the quite quitting / quite firing going on .
i hope shes doing okay with those minefields
where is your book ?
Ni dominant athlethes will show a Ni style of play. If you follow soccer, think Andrea Pirlo
I think ni as opposed to ne can be described by "beyond" or "behind" as opposed to "new", so ni to me is an anticipation of a beyond, so it ignore details or the "appearance" that's why ni and si are so opposed. In some sense ni is most historical function in the sense that it looks through the past and anticipate the beyond. Ne as opposed to ni is pure possibilities it is not concerned with the "beyond" or the "behind" of the history, it just want something entirely new, so it seems scattered brain to ni
What type do you think Arnold Schwartzeneger is? LSI?
I had thought SLE
Why didn't I even see this, all this time? I've looked at your list of videos and never noticed that there was any significance to you calling it 'telos' instead of 'tempus.' I've been calling it 'tempus' for years. When I look up the meaning of 'telos,' that looks more like what I think of as Ni with a plus sign, the INTP. If I think of 'tempus,' that might be more like what I think of as Ni with a minus sign, the INFP. I was thinking of this because I saw the recent INFP video, my superego, and you know I'm using whatever model that is with the plus and minus signs, maybe Model B.
'Telos' feels more like the plus Ni, because it sounds like, you yourself are originating, generating, the purpose for where something is going. Or it might be unique to this one specific object, and no other thing in the universe will have this specific purpose, or be going to this specific end or goal. One meaning of the plus sign is, it's something that only one individual can do, themselves, locally. It's like Shawshank Redemption, where Andy Dufresne took a strange, black, volcanic stone, and he put it into a hayfield where it didn't belong, so that it would be meaningful, and it would show the location of a hidden box that he had buried there. That stone did not end up in the hayfield by itself.
Ni with a minus sign, or what I've been calling 'tempus,' what I thought of as 'processes happening over time,' might be more like, the things that happen to anybody and everybody, whether you want them to or not, things that might be inevitable. As my superego, I use this in a primitive way, and I have awareness of things like, 'Everybody is going to die someday,' or 'Separation and loss are inevitable.' There's a negative tone to it, which is another part of what the minus sign means. Meanwhile, the plus Ni might have a more positive tone: Where do you WANT this to go? And that will interact with the plus Se of gamma, who says, 'That thing over there is a desirable object, a desirable thing to direct your energy towards.' The negative Se might be more like, 'This thing is an overwhelming force, and maybe you should avoid that whole thing entirely, or it will completely change everything about where you are going.' The river is running over the landscape, but suddenly, a giant sinkhole opens, and where there was once a river running over the land, now it has fallen into the ground and it can never get out, and it will be running underground into the caverns forever.
There's some similarity to how -Ne interacts with -Si, for me. -Ne is all the alternative possibilities. -Si is all the normal things that I routinely do every day, and with a minus sign, it's global, so it means, 'the usual,' 'everybody always does this,' 'I myself am always doing something,' without going into the specific details of how I made one particular maneuver or something. It's not a detailed description of every step that I took while I walked from one side of the house to the other. It's the general way that I live my life every day, and -Ne is all the other things that I could possibly be doing, in a whole other world. There might be some advertisement that says, 'Are you washing your dishes by hand, every day? Are you tired of this chore? Well here's a dishwasher that could be doing all that work for you!' It's some alternative to the way that I'm doing it all the time.
But an interaction between +Ne and +Si in the alpha quadra might be more like, when Bilbo Baggins realized that they could escape from the wood elves' kingdom by getting into the barrels and going out the door into the river. He figured out that something was possible, and it was a unique, special, local possibility, in this exact, specific situation, which existed nowhere else. It isn't a general or global possibility, such as, 'The entire way that you're always living your life could potentially be different from this.' Instead, it's 'This exact situation has a loophole that you could take advantage of.' (I just happen to be listening to 'The Hobbit' on an audiobook in the car lately.)
Anyway, the whole point was, I never heard it called 'telos' before, and when I looked it up, the meaning was slightly different from what I've been calling 'tempus' for years now.
Personally, I try to look at it by blocking the elements together rather than using signs.
Ni+Fe/Ti is more romanticised and absolutist.
Ni+Te/Fi is more sceptical, cynical, pragmatic, and independent.
CS Joseph calls it "what individual wants" or intend to do and desire. He has killed the meaning of Ni.
Yikes
His conflating desire with intuition as a massacre on Typology is an understatement 😂
@@wearejungians I don't know a function that is so abstract is described do concrete way, he says it is a "source of intuition"
@@wearejungians i dont know what his deal is with that like how he even came to that conclusion , i guess i can see his logic but its like read a damm real book already and stop making shit up for your lil cult , its just annoying at this point ,because of the authority he gives himself to which he should be responsible even with faux power (like why make your followers dumb?or is it some weird gaslighting thru infantilizing them and taking the projected position of their father to get his money as its a grift )
I heard him say «willpower» also.
“ Men of action cannot be INFJs or INTJs “
INxJs are certainly up against it when it comes to the realm of action. The number one thing I detest about my type is my laziness, doing physical tasks drains me so much faster than mental ones, (there’s some nuance to this, I’d rather dig a hole than process meaningless data, but I’d rather be with the boys, thinking about thinking😂 to quote a philosophy meme) I can only focus on something I’m not interested in for so long before I need to be able to just chill and envision the stuff I actually want/want to do, but there have been periods in my life where I really would have been considered a man of action due to all the work, gym and sleeping around I was doing doing 😂it just depends on ultimately, willpower and discipline. It’s unlikely an INxJ would lead the life of a “man of action” but definitely not impossible, and it depends on your definition of man of action and what time frame it would take to reach/maintain said title.My life goal is to reach a god level of discipline so, guess my life’s work is to prove this statement wrong 😂😂😂
I’ll admit though when I’m doing physical things, I genuinely have to think (though this particularly is just lack of Te efficiency) and what I’d term physically calculate, it feels like a lot small things that should be “Si unconscious actions” by now are still “Se new experiences” if that makes sense.
Also, WHOS GONNA CARRY THE BOATS?!
Pretty sure Goggins is an INFJ. We love our alter Egos 😂
Disdain for the mundane, truth.
The INxP types or Ni doms can become active, but it usually requires an external environment of urgency to help them with it.
@@WorldSocionics can attest to that, Im only willing to brute force the metaphorical barrier when there's a fire lit under my bum be it sheer necessity or burning desire, otherwise very much a wu wei kinda guy.
You’re an INFJ ? You kind of look like Simon Sinek
Another thought that I had (I'm in the middle of watching the video right now) was something about the difference between what I think is my -Si, and the -Ni of someone who I typed as INFP. There used to be a maintenance man living at this campground, who was the ex-husband of the ESTP campground manager. He's not here anymore.
I have mostly gotten along okay at this campground, but there are a couple things that I disagree about, or am not really happy about. One thing is the way that they keep their horses. They have this small pony, and two donkeys, kept in a paddock, which is mostly dry dirt, with some invasive weeds that are inedible, because that's all that's left after they graze. But, only a few feet away, there is a GIGANTIC grassy field, maybe two acres at least, which they mow with a lawnmower, which is ridiculous to me. If only they would put, even, just a temporary fence made out of ribbon - we had horses when I was a kid, and my mom had this flexible ribbon stuff that could be made into an electric fence, and she would put it up for temporary grazing in particular locations - if only they would put even a temporary fence up, they could let these horses and donkeys graze in the big giant field.
I talked to this maintenance guy about that idea. But he said no, and that annoyed me. He's the guy who cleaned up the poop, so he would have to go around with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. 'What goes in, must come out,' he said. This is his view, 'processes over time.' There is a process of eating food and it comes out the other side, and he has to clean it up, and that's how he expresses this idea, as a process.
But to me, I want to see the horses having 'freedom of movement.' I like the idea that animals are free to move around, from one physical location to another, eating the food that's going to be healthier and more enjoyable for them, the fresh green grass, while at the same time, saving the time, effort, and gasoline expense that they would need to mow the lawn, wasting their energy. It seems like an obvious choice to me, but that's not how they see it. They see it as 'poopaphobia.' Omg! Horse poop! We wouldn't want to see any of THAT, in a rural area which is completely surrounded by hundreds of farms, fields, cows, and horses, everywhere for miles! Not like anybody might EXPECT to see some horse manure somewhere, if they come to a campground in an area that's obviously a farming area. In other words, just leave it there, don't even bother shoveling it, because it's not hurting anyone.
So I was quite annoyed with him about that. I think that my preference is for -Si, a freedom to move around from one physical location to another, especially if it helps you to get something that you need for health and for food, and I have a greater tolerance for something like horse manure, and less of a phobia of it. I might be more extreme than some people are, in my belief that it's a good thing to have this freedom of physical movement.
I think another clear Ni trait is the ability to understand and model another person's mind, it's how it predicts people's behavior. It's not empathy because it's detached, so different from Fi
Either you can do that structurally through a typology, which is Ti, or attitudinally which is Fi.
"correctly" i'm so tired of jungian functions being argued over i need to unsub from all this mbti/socionics nonsense it's for children and people with low self esteem
Well yes, if you don't want correct definitions of the fundamental concepts, what's the point of doing typology?
someone's peanut-sized brain couldn't understand cognitive functions.