The ULTIMATE Tornado vs Hobie 16 SHOWDOWN
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- čas přidán 19. 07. 2023
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Sailing the Tornado catamaran, Joe and Markus hit the line of Hobiecat 16s fast, a 5 second head start is given and then the Hobies sheet in and give it the beans, aim of the game for them is to catch the Tornado.
I'm trying to prove myself wrong by not letting them catch me!
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#catsailing
#joyridertv - Sport
You've put a smile on my face with this one. Back in the day (late 80's,90's, early 2ks) I was one of the top H16 sailors in Texas. We mostly raced against only H16s. A couple of times of year we would have open regattas against the other multi hull classes including Tornados. There were some very good sailors on the Tornado, some of which went on to win Olympic medals. These were buoys races, with windward/leeward/reaching legs and scored under the portsmouth rating system. The Tornado sailors generally looked down on the "Hobby Cat" sailors and we thought they were snotty and spent too much time fiddling with rigging instead of learning to sail.
In light air we could not compete with the Tornados. But give us some big breeze and enough downwind and reaching legs and we could spank them. And oh boy was that fun.
Sadly both classes are barely a ghost of their former glory. The Tornado is out of the Olympics and gone are the days of multi-hundred Hobie only regattas with up to 50 bloodthirsty H16s on the line.
Thanks for that.
The Tornado is back on the up however. The Worlds this year was a great event with 30 boats on the start line - if we could get the US sailors on board then we could perhaps even get back to having 50 boats
What part of Texas? I was a boy in the 80s and we'd take our 16 to Galveston and Somerville. I had a 16 the past 15 years in Austin but Travis is a terrible lake for sailing. But beggars can't be choosers!
same area as you were in. sailed locally at TexasCity Dike, Somerville. Throughout 80's I was mostly chasing the division 6 racing circuit. I won the 51 boat B fleet class at mid Americas in 1982. The next 10 years getting schooled by the A fleet boys.
@@rshawiii Nice. I never sailed the dike but I heard it had that consistent wind and few waves. On Travis I rarely got a hull out of the water because everything is a gust and the wind direction changes 30° every 90 seconds. That's an exaggeration, but also kind of true. But I do love fresh water.
Beautiful shots and great sailing as always!
Glad you enjoyed it!
this would be an amazing race, i´m excited, go for it Joe 🔥🔥🔥
Here we go!!!
Absolutely awesome chase Joe! .... and your footage is superb, love the drone shots in between the action shots. I have a Unicorn so am naturally drawn to the Tornado coz it's from a similar era ... but those Hobies look like great fun!!!
Thanks! Yes, the Tornado is certainly the classic. It was a great fight.
@@JoyriderTV Remember when we got our Hobie 14 in 1969 or so there was also the tornado and shark cats
Ross did well, Ed and Nick sending it on nr. 12! Love the Gladiator references.. some new catchphrases creeping in to the JTV vocabulary!
More to come!
Great video. Did a lot of HC16 sailing in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Happy to see this design is still thriving at bringing tons of healthy fun and exhilaration to people today.
Still as good as it ever was!
Excellent job!!
Thank you! Cheers!
SUPERB
Toes twitching grabbing to haul in and release imaginary mains . God I love that pace and place 😊
I'm very lucky to live here.
That was exciting to watch!😄
glad that you enjoyed it!
Great video and chase, tks.
Glad you enjoyed it
This looks beautiful! Love the new 16s!
They are so very nice to sail - easier than the older ones.
That was fun to watch. I had a h16 in the 80’s and sailed at Belmont mostly. Then I picked up windsurfing over at Cabrillo beach. Both were fun, but windsurfing was much less of a hassle.
I know what you mean. Glad that you enjoyed it!
Favourite vid to date Joe 👏
Mine too!
Amazing show!❤
Thanks very much it was a lot of fun putting this together
That was awesome!!
Glad you liked it!
Love the different views!
the drone footage is next level.
Sailing drag race!!! I like it!
so much fun!
Killing it-huge speed-ravenous 16’s-carnage!
Oh yes, those 16s could smell the cheese!!
Great video! I designed and built a custom 18' cat (modeled after a Tornado) right after high school in 1966. Not quite the performance results, but great fun. Sailed it all over Mission Bay, CA and Marina Del Rey Ca. Nowadays I sail a Hobie cat in Florida.
Very cool! Is that boat still running?
Thanks for the comment. I sold it when I got married and entered a post grad University. Such are the sacrifices you make for a future life. I would like to think it is still performing for its new owners. @@JoyriderTV
Epic footage.. nice to see the JoyriderTV helicopter in the air to cover this!
Sometimes you've got to launch the chopper!!
Amazing to watch. Great race. Have to get a foiling cat out there now against the 16.
That would be very cool - I don't think that the 16s would have a chance.
Brilliant video! Glad to see that the big T held them off!
Oh yeah. Glad that i held them off.
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh
Amazing how 16 can sail as fast as the Tornado!!
True that!
This is so much fun!
I'm glad that you enjoyed it!
great video !!
Thanks!!
Great ! video!
Thanks!
I certainly hope you make some more videos like this, excellent. And than with a different setup?
Yes, we're planning the next one already....
Flock of 16’s, love it!!!
They were certainly flying!
Nice one, it reminds me of my time learning to sail in a Kitty Cat as a 13 yr old with my older brother. My dad would put a sand bag in the middle of the boat to give us some weight as we sailed away in 20 knot winds in NZ. Happy memories
Very cool! The sand bag is often the best crew!
forgot to mention ..it was 1970!
Great video!! I am guessing the deliberate mistake is keeping the centerboard blades up? Not really a mistake while overpowered but it's the only thing on the boat that I could pick apart. That's gotta be one of the nicest tornados I have seen. Thanks!
Yes, that's right.
The biggest problem was that she was going very bow down. Quite a disconcerting feeling!
Team Swain was always going to get wet. Love the commitment to the send
Ha! I'm waiting for the sitcom 'at home with the Swains'
I’m loving all of your videos! Have you thought of capturing individual frames and publishing a calendar of photos for Joyrider? ❤️
That's a great idea! I'll look into it!
The intensity of this chase was hard-core
loved it!!
Nice one Sir!.
Few things to comment on. T should be more than capable of stretching away in these conditions, and it did appear to be in the later stages. So boat handling and setup differences likely major factors. For fast flat water reaching, I'd like to see more draft in the main foot (seems very flat to the boom...outhaul too tight? ). Also, windward hull seemed always in the water, should be just kissing it for optimum speed. Getting main downhaul correct here is critical. Too much and boat will be flat in water, not coming out in gusts. Too little and hull will be popping out rapidly with every gust. Crew should be handling mainsheet to adjust boat attitude...helmsman cannot do effect job with one arm. If crew needs more than a good arms length sheet in/out to control pops, then sneak on more downhaul. Alternatively, some crew handle the downhaul instead of main or jib in these conditions...playing it constantly to keep hull where it needs to be.
Boom looks to be a thin bit of tubing. A Marstrom should have rather tall rectangular boom section, maximizing stiffness vertically. Could you be loosing sail shape control with your setup?
Think I saw a bit of water coming up out a centerboard slot at one point. How are your slot strips? Have you done the fairing/filler mod to the slot forward of the maximum board thickness?
Ok, i'm going to come clean.
I think the hull not lifting and the water coming up was due to the fact that we forgot to put the boards down!
I think it would have been quite different.
Downhaul was maxed and I wouldn't have wanted to ease it at all.
I actually changed the jib sheets - on the advice of another youtube comment, so that the jib could be played from the back. I think Marcus having the traveller would have been better.
Yes, the original boom was lost before we bought the boat so we made this one.
Thanks again for your advice - it's all going in!
@@JoyriderTV Ya no boards down the drag will be awful and the steering a handful without the board lift forces to balance the leeward forces.Only time I have found lifting a board to be useful, near drifting conditions going downwind. otherwise, you loose too much in leeway and drag.
Max downhaul? Still not enough to tame the gusts? What are your mast spreaders/diamond tension for prebend at? May need more for the given crew weight and conditions. That will affect how effect downhaul is.
When I raced in the OCR Miami in late 2000's, I'd see the top guys tweaking their diamond tensions on the water between races as wind conditions changed.Also common to see them swapping out the top batten for different stiffness as winds changed...all on the water btwn races.
@@TornadoCAN99 we're running 6mm spreader and 38 on the diamonds for regular vassiliki conditions - strong + flat.
It was not out of choice living the boards up - a pure schoolboy error, we had a bit on when leaving and being a bit out of practice with the T, completely forgot!
I'll certainly try tweaking the diamond tension for different wind strength;
Glad someone more knowledgeable than me said it. I have had a 16 and raced next to a Tornado (while in an FD). The Tornado should not have any problems leaving a 16 in its wake.
We compared a modified H16 (larger square top main, 22sqm gennaker) to a then normal Tornado (single trapez) back in the 90ties. That was almost equal. I think a double trapez (and gennaker) Tornado just blows the H16 away, which should be normal regarding weight, hulls and sail plan. But that is all fun, as the video shows. Nice!!
Great stuff - that would have been very cool to see.
Intense! Keeping it pinned on the limits 🤟🔥🔥
Always!
Most excellent- Let's have another one! Perhaps you could turn the tables Joe and let someone else sail the Tornado while you chase them down in the 16
For sure! I would love to get a Tornado sailing hero out here and see if I could catch them.
You guys are crazy :D
but are we crazy enough?
Absolutely yes :D !
The Tornado crew needs to put down the Jib sheet. It isn't the main sourceof power.. it was oversheeted most of the time.. the crew needed to be either working the Cunningham or the mainsheet or traveler.. something that actually does something... the one shot with the T Hull out of water you were touching 24knts... the windward hull never should have been in water... just the tip of Centerboard no more... It's not a bigger hobie 16.... It's a tornado when you have to sail it like one.
Ya need to run the Cunningham to the crews trapeze
Thanks so much for all of your advice.
I'm feeling that next time i'll do better.
We did try flying the hull that high on a subsequent outing -it certainly felt very high.
My biggest issue seems to be that the bows want to dig in.
I've got the mast raked to the corner. I thought that would be enough.
@JoyriderTV if you are light crew.. I think it's recommended to be raked just below the corner of transom and inch or two, measuring with trap wire from bridle connection at hull.
Also bows driving it MIGHT be a result of to much twist in the main. In all but the biggest differental puffs the boat should be flying higher vs going bow down. Maybe travel out a bit more and sheet in... also maybe in less than 25knt of breeze try sheeting in hard in the gusts with a very small steer down.
The other problem with bows down could be as simple as not having enough range in jib travel. Mine jib sheet setup 8:1 for small crew to use and it's perfect for VMG racing but doesn't go out far enough in that configuration to really let it rip on a broad reach without the kite. I have to drop the purchase or add a strop to get jib out enough. With the self tacking track and no barberhauler it's going to be a bit of a compromise.
It just really looked in the video like there was way to much jib on, and not enough main.
@@ronholm297 Thanks again for the tips. I'll get this bad boy moving yet!
I'll try making some kind of barbour hauler or device to get the jib sheeting angle further out.
Cheers
@@JoyriderTV Give it the beans! The video coverage you have is awesome!
Gi !! Compared to the movie of this race, the pursuit btween X-wings and Millenium falcon appears just as a joke ;-)
Thanks!!! Yes, this was really cooking!!!
Great sailing! Looks to me like the jib halyard/downhaul was a few inches too loose!
Yeah I think so too - It seems that it's very related to mainsheet tension - if the main is sheeted in harder it tightens the jib luff and forestay - maybe that means that the rig isn't tight enough.
@@JoyriderTV when it's windy we just have to yank it on hard! Crew on the trapeze pulling with his legs! 😂
@@TheGovier wow, that's tight - i'll try it!
wow..I went on a cat holiday there about 27 years ago...fantastic place to sail in.. Wish I could turn back time!
I would have been here!!
@@JoyriderTV O. remember sailing hobie 16's and an hobie 17 with sit down outriggers (if that makes sense)
the guy in charge was about to run a ski chalet for the winter
@@pixiecat6109 yes, that would have been Adrian - he's still in the Alps!
😂 what a race, yardstickwise the 16teens win though🤣
For sure. The Tornado was toast!
No way I woyld have thouth a 16 would beable to compete with a tornado very impressed
In the mega strong wind the 16 can be pushed very hard.
Pour éviter le capsize, rope attaché au fémelot de safrant + poignée de retenue pour équipier au trapèze qui retient le barreur !!!
On the flat water where we are sailing, this kind of line isn’t generally necessary. Although on this occasion, I think it would have been appreciated.
Amazing video, Joe!! I enjoyed every second!!! Pure motivation for us Lake Luffers here. By the way, are you using a Velocitek Puck for the speed and does the telemetry overlay work with that or do you have to have the Gopro with GPS?
The speed puck is giving the official speed.
The gauges come from the GoPro in built gps using telemetry overlay
@@JoyriderTV Thanks Joe. Looks like I need to upgrade my camera gear in that case.
Well what can I say. Maybe I did teach them well.
Go big or go home!
Just big enough. Nice job.
Sailing the Tornado as if you are on a hobie will not give you max speed. You stern is plowing through the water, your weight is too far aft, the traveler was too far down and the main downhaul was not tight enough...your main sail was not efficient as it could have been. The tornado should have left the hobie 16 for dead with in a few hundred meters.........BUT great footage and fun to watch and to hear Joe getting the beans a bit excited today!!.Love it!
I really felt like the bows were digging in which is why we were clinging to the back.
It was my first time trying this kind of reach with the traveller out - usually i would keep it pretty central - my thinking was to have more sheet tension to help flatten the sail.
Downhaul was on hard - perhaps not hard enough.
2 questions:
Would you rotate the mast more to the back?
What amount of toe in on the rudders - I felt a little bit of lee helm.
Thanks
Joe&Markus Airlines ✈
Fasten your seatbelts!!!
...wow great stuff coming up today afternoon - who are the Crew and Helm on the hunting H16 ? Hope i can tune in...
When you see long white sleeves - that's me as crew of Ross. That was my final ride of my holiday.
And our flight back was bang on time.
@@feedingravens nice to hear an see but why relaxing on the trampolin and not hanging out on the wire, You were supposed th catch the Tornado ;o)
We had Johnny, Sven, Ed, Angus and Ross helming the 16s
@@Konfliktloeser Partly I was out there, but as crew I have to do what my helm wants me to do, And when he wants me in, I have to obey.
Besides 93 kg are quite a lot.even when not hanging out..
Can you do a film of down wind cat sailing on how to use apparent wind?
Yes, good idea. I'll put that on the list.
This channel inspired me if they got my first catamaran, A sol cat 18. It's a fun boat but I'm thinking of getting a Hobie 16 or Goodall. I can't rite the sol cat.
There'l be a big price difference between the H16 and Goodall - have you tried righting the solicit using a righting bag?
@@JoyriderTV I've tried riding it with a powerboat. Once that 30 ft stick gets some water in it it's hard to get it going. A bag would definitely help. I sail single-handed a lot so it's a lot of boat to begin with. I hear what you're saying about the price difference with the Goodall and the Hobie 16. I might decide to go with the Hobie would the Goodall be much faster?
Get rid of the SolCat before the hull cracks.
@@ssnobrakesableis that a thing with these boats? My problem is that I absolutely cannot rite it once it goes over.
No dagger boards in? Somebody please explain. I just bought a narca 5.2
Yes, The Tornado is running with pivoting centreboards - on this occasion the deliberate mistake was leaving them up!
Can confirm,blowing dogs off chains the 16 can beat them around a course ,have done it on more than one occasion.Have raced and owned both.
Around the course - upwind downwind, the Tornado should win. On a reaching course the 16 has the advantage
Gotta tell your crew to not wrap that sheet around his hand
Well spotted - good point.
Drone shots ?
So good! For sure. Proper Hollywood stuff
Mistake.. did someone forget the top batten in the jib?
No, i think the jib was still feeling the effects of our round the rock.
I'm confused how the 16 could catch the Tornado? although the Tornado is a heavier boat it has quite a bit more sail area. I didn't expect the 16s to catch up
Just some small tweaks to how the T is being sailed and he will have it running away... it isn't a heavier boat... a H16 is near 320lbs. A Marstrom Tornado should weigh in close to 340lbs... and the platform is way stiffer and more responsive
Well with was a fast reaching course, so the boat setup will be different than for normal round the marks racing. Yes, the T should be more than capable of stretching away in these conditions, and it did appear to be in the later stages. So boat handling and setup differences likely major factors. For fast flat water reaching, I'd like to see more draft in the main foot (seems very flat to the boom...outhaul too tight? ). Also, winward hull seemed always in the water, should be just kissing it for optimum speed. Getting main downhaul correct here is critical. Too much and boat will be flat in water, not coming out in gusts. Too little and hull will be popping out rapidly with every gust. Crew should be handling mainsheet to adjust boat attitude...helmsman cannot do effect job with one arm. If crew needs more than a good arms length sheet in/out to control pops, then sneak on more downhaul. Alternatively, some crew handle the downhaul instead of main or jib in these conditions...playing it constantly to keep hull where it needs to be.
on the 16 the sail is not high aspect and the hulls are inefficient so in light to moderate airs the tornado kills it even a tornado with a hobie 16 sail kills a hobie 16 (i say tornado but we did this for years on a hurricane 5.9 which is basically a narrow tornado) hobie 16 main sail on the 5.9 made it less frisky which was the point (some girls liked to feel safe crewing for me) and a bit slower than the other hurricanes f18's and tornados (not so much as you'd think tho we'd beat them with a good spinnaker run and they'd creep back up to windward i'd beat full sail hurricanes when we went 3 up in heavy winds we were all light so adding up to 27stone i could use the power of just sail better than some of the h 5.9's) ) but it absolutely killed hobie 16's because of the much more efficient hulls , however the 16 hulls stop being inefficient at some point lets call that point top end of a force 5 , stop being inefficient means the speed give the hobie 16 hulls as much lift as the rounded hulls are able to get i cant say that for sure but i can say in a top end 5 or 6 the 16 matches the tornado f18 hurricane speed cats if its being sailed flat and the more powerful cats are flying a bit more , thats partly because of the massive low aspect main sail its inefficient in a force 4 but very efficient in a force 6 because it gives you more low down power and less tipping motion if you have a heavy crew or are just sailing a bit lower than beam it will catch the 'faster' 18 and 20 foot cats so when i was 14 and my mate 13 we were 7 stone each we could only go faster than the hurricanes on a deep reach in a 4 or more because we weighed 14 stone we would catch the hurricanes when the conditions were right (i remember my crew trapesing of the back of the rudder stock me sitting on the tiller inches in front of him and cruising up on the hurricane fleet on a broad reach in flat water ) later another mate had his 16 and he and his crew were 15 stone each they were untouchable in a force 6 on handicap and would match much faster boats for boat speed at certain angles , to sum up we had some fun sailing these cats :)
I'm just going to put this here:
In these conditions - flat water, strong wind, beam to broad reaching course, the Hobie is fast.
This is because - in my opinion and after nearly 30 years of extensive testing and training, the Hobie planes on the outside of the hull - the outside is perfectly flat that makes a very good plaining surface - this means that the boat's top speed isn't restricted - as long as you can remain in control.
That's what I think.
@JoyriderTV the H16 is a great boat for sure. Maybe even the simplicity making it more fun at times.. But I am certain you will find even more out of the T. It's just very different than the H16 in how it must be tamed.
Never ever!
Nearly though...
Not sure what's changed but when I was sailing 20 years ago, a Tornado would beat a H16 on a reach eeeeasily.
On this specific course, it was designed for the Hobie to have the advantage
Can't believe your not wearing gloves.
By sailing regularly without gloves the hands become conditioned.
Now it’s been proven - a Hobie 16 will crash trying to catch a Tornado!
When you push too hard, something has to give!
Pull more down haul
On the T it was, I thought, maxed.
@JoyriderTV on thar point of sail you might play with downhaul just a little. It does make the sail flatter, but also makes it twist more. Off the wind at certain points, the answer isn't always as simple as more equals less power. It's a stupid powerful control. On a more moderate day, seriously hand the main and as skipper play it it.. yours is setup 16:1 right?
Let me guess without even watching Hobie 16 loses
Only due to a dynamic pitchpole!
Boom!
Well, you've succeeded in reducing competitive dinghy racing to a vulgar Indy 500 style lowbrow speed contest. One design sailboat racing should be about who is the best tactician and who can get the best boat speed out of boats that are all virtually the same, not a contest to see who can gain a few knots on a different design of boat, which is intrinsically quite boring.
I made this video in response to people asking what is faster between a Hobie 16 and a Tornado.
This is not to replace dinghy racing. Just for entertainment.
I'm sorry if this video offended you.