andybass, these are actually Chinese forms that were brought to Okinawa and taught to the native population. One solid example of this is Hei Hu Quan, which is the foundation of Gojushiho/O Sip Sa Bo. Take a look at some of the White Crane styles and you will see a lot of influence in the "Japanese" katas.
Tnag Soo Do does incorporate a fair amount of Shotkan technique. The forms are not "done poorly", nor are they "imitations" of the Shotkan forms. They are Korean adaptations (as to some forms) of Shotokan forms. Others were purely creations of KJN Hwang Kee, such as the Yuk Rho series and the Chil Sung series of hyungs. There are differences in execution which reflect the different philosophies of the two arts. For instance, Shotokan does not employ kicking techniques to the same extent as Tang Soo Do, nor does it emphasize use of the hip in its techniques. It is also more linear than Tang Soo Do. That doesn't make one more right than the other, just similar, but different. Another consideration is that, having been occupied by Japan for decades, the Korean government was not too keen on adopting anything Japanese. Therefore, out of Tang Soo Do (sometimes known as Korean Shotokan) grew Taekwondo, because it was something that Koreans could call "all their own". Of course, regardless of what you call it, there are only so many ways to punch someone in the face, or kick him in the head. So the most important thing is, whatever your art, train and execute at the highest level you can, and be sure that you are effective. This "my art is better than your art" business is pure BS. Afte4r all, whatever you can incorporate into your training becomes part of your personal repertoire and part of your art as well. Paul Carty, Sa Bom
@MrNinja1111 During the Japanese occupation of Korea (1910-1945), Japan banned the Korean people from practicing their native martial arts. They did allow the Koreans to train in Japanese systems such as; karate, judo, etc. Many of the pioneers of today's Korean martial arts were black belts in Japanese karate systems, Shotokan in particular. Thus the majority of the forms you see in Tang Soo Do are of Okinawan/Japanese origin. Pyong-an Oh Dan (Heian Godan), O Sip Sa Bo (Gojushiho Dai), etc.
Dannyboy, there's a lot more power there than you realize. It's not necessary to overpower each movement for the movement to be powerful. That's why you can have an older/more experienced practitioner appear to barely touch you, but have you doubled over in pain. Additionally, as for this performance, this was the fifth straight day following four previous 14 hour days of TSD. In any event, I'd venture to say that a 5th dan's Pyong Ahn Oh Dan looks different from that of a 4th gup - as well it
Shotokan guys... You didn't create the Heian kata. They originally were named Pinan katas, and by Shorin ryu standards, Shotokan stylists have it all wrong. Shorin Ryu does it one way, Shotokan another, Tang Soo Do does them differently as well. Shotokan is not "the original" one, there is no "pure" style.
Not only that, but not even Shorin Ryu is original. Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin. So really pretty much everything in the martial arts world is a copy of something else if you go back far enough.
Everything that the Japanese know about martial arts they learned from the Koreans, and the Koreans from the Chinese, the knowledge of the Japanese, whether it be livestock farming, the construction of their wooden houses and everything else, all that knowledge under the continent
Anyone who is offering negative comments on this interpretation of hyungs/katas is very close minded. People need to remember that during the Japanese occupation of Korea, the indigenous martial arts of Korea were not allowed to be practiced. Consequently, the Korean people lost much of their martial culture, history and identity. Who can blame them for taking what they had available and making it their own.
@Evelyn Lucas: Pyong An is of course a blackbelt-hyong. They are just smaller in length. If you say something different, then explain me, why bassai, jion and kongsangkoon are blackbelt hyongs. Further a blackbelttest should test hyongs, that are teached earlier.
Yes it is a Korean version of it ( O and Go are both 5) from Funakoshi who in turn took it from Master Yasutsune Itosu. It's totally a copy when you look at the dates the forms were invented versus the birth of Hwang Kee and his invention of TSD/SBD.
Generally, everything that is musical culture, everything advanced came to Japan through the Korean continent, China, even the Japanese or the ancient inhabitants were the Ainu tribe who were nothing more than the Russians or Eskimos of short stature, who did not know the Farming or raising domestic animals they learned everything from Koreans and Chinese and the Japanese learned martial arts from Chinese and Koreans
barrettokarate: Incorrect; Funakoshi Gichen brought Okinawate (originally just called te (hand), or Okinawa hand, from there. It was not called China hand originally. That is Tang Soo Do TKD that is translated as China (Tang) hand (soo) way (do).
Karate in Korean is [Gong Soo Do]. And this is [Tang Soo Do]. [Tang Soo Do] was made 1,000 years before [Gong Soo Do] was ever introduced in Japan. Many still believe [Tang Soo Do] gave birth to [Gong Soo Do]
You must be reading from a Korean history book. Just having arts older than Karate does not mean they are the origin of it. What's next SSirum is the origin of WWE?
@John Kimchoilee - you are incredibly uneducated. Tang Soo Do was formulated in the mid 1940's as a Koreanized version of Shotokan, which had been taught by the Japanese occupiers to the Korean populace.
I have a book that the Grand Master wrote he went to China and studied a style of kung-fu from the Tang dynasty it had crane stuff in it. The higher forms have crane moves. It's a combination of Japanese and Chinese according to the founder. Hwang Kee studied under a wushu master from 1936-1945. It's in his bio on line.
@@jitsroller Nearly every form in TSD was created in Okinawa in the 1870's, by Itosu. None of what you stated is accurate, except that it may be posted somewhere.
@@brownskarate its in the founders biography. His son HC Hwang reiterated the story at a clinic I was at in Korea on the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan.
Sa Bom Nim: incorrect. Sabumnim: correct. Incorrect: Sa Bom Nim James Bergers and Sa Bom Nim Paul Carty. Correct: James Bergers sabumnim and Paul Carty. Otherwise, interesting watch for me.
incorrect. The offical Revised Romanization, which is offical since 2000) would be sabeomnim. But in general the e is a problem so I always understand, if people pull it. Different Romanizations are pŏm and pem. Further the Romanization doesn't change the meaning.
Maximilian Arnold The World Kuk Sool Assoc. site as pdf of the correct spellings in hangul. I take that and the official romanizations. Try and pronounce these properly: Pusan (it is NOT Busan), Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Japan, Shanghai, Zhangshou, Zhaolin, and Tiananmen. I garantee many will mispronounce them. And different romanizing can change meaning because people will mispronounce them based on that.
You misunderstand romanizations. If you read "beom" would you speak it correct? And what is correct? In Korea there are dialects too. What I say about meaning is the following: If Sb knows nothing about Korea and the korean language, he knows, that sabom means sth like teacher and with that information he can understand commands in the dojang and koreans who are willing to understand himm will too. If you want them to speak it perfect, then they shoul study the korean language.
Maximilian Arnold Sabum doesn't mean teacher. Kyosa, and sonsaengin everyday useage, mean teacher. Sabum is used in martial arts only, from what I can tell. I have never found it in any dictionary, either. As a note, also, dialects are verbal only. They can be shown in improper spelling, such as in books by Mark Twain, especially, or by the Maine dialects ala Stephen King.
You're not wrong wrong but the Heians were taught to Funakoshi well before Shotokan was it's own thing. So Shotokan may be the origin of TSDs crap, but Master Itosu was the origin of Shotokan's "Crap". Hell even the Tekki/Nihanchi series was passed down to Itosu...
these are japanese katas...no originality..better they copied the exact form opf kata..meaning with emphasis on focus and power... see observe the waythey perform hand movements and the body.. do you think in actual fight it has power to repel and defend the practitioner?
most most Korean stylus practice the same form that come from Shotokan and other Okinawan styles such shorin-ryu karate unfortunately when Korean stylist duties forms the techniques come off as sloppy the timing and breathing are mostly incorrect including the way I was performing many of these techniques myself it wasn't until I was shown these techniques find Advanced Okinawan stylist and I begin to improve my form and create better technique there is a count and a rhythm coordinated with breathing that should be followed while performing these forms lastly one of the big problems that many westerners have an interpreting these forms of Korean systems is knowing what the actual application of the technique actually represents many are actually clueless to what these techniques are really trying to communicate including myself
My God , what is this ?...The first Kata they´re TRYING to do is Heian Godan (Shotokan Karate),no Kime , stances wrong,no Hikite, ..... Puta que o pariu !!!!
No it's 100% Pyong Ahn O Dan. TSD just copied the homework but had to make it a little different so the teacher couldn't tell. Looking at it purely through a Shotokan lens is short sighted. Everyone knows it is where it evolved from, doesn't make this version "wrong".
Shotokan bastardized the Okinawan forms terribly. You should take Shorin Ryu. The way Shotokan does these forms is absolutely terrible. Obviously, there is only one possible way to do these forms and modern Shotokan isn't it. You don't even do your Chinto diagonally or bow with your hands as in kung fu and Shorin Ryu.
andybass, these are actually Chinese forms that were brought to Okinawa and taught to the native population. One solid example of this is Hei Hu Quan, which is the foundation of Gojushiho/O Sip Sa Bo. Take a look at some of the White Crane styles and you will see a lot of influence in the "Japanese" katas.
The first art the original founder, Grand Master Hwang Kee studied was, kung-fu in China.
Well Hyung guys!
Tnag Soo Do does incorporate a fair amount of Shotkan technique. The forms are not "done poorly", nor are they "imitations" of the Shotkan forms. They are Korean adaptations (as to some forms) of Shotokan forms. Others were purely creations of KJN Hwang Kee, such as the Yuk Rho series and the Chil Sung series of hyungs. There are differences in execution which reflect the different philosophies of the two arts. For instance, Shotokan does not employ kicking techniques to the same extent as Tang Soo Do, nor does it emphasize use of the hip in its techniques. It is also more linear than Tang Soo Do. That doesn't make one more right than the other, just similar, but different. Another consideration is that, having been occupied by Japan for decades, the Korean government was not too keen on adopting anything Japanese. Therefore, out of Tang Soo Do (sometimes known as Korean Shotokan) grew Taekwondo, because it was something that Koreans could call "all their own". Of course, regardless of what you call it, there are only so many ways to punch someone in the face, or kick him in the head. So the most important thing is, whatever your art, train and execute at the highest level you can, and be sure that you are effective. This "my art is better than your art" business is pure BS. Afte4r all, whatever you can incorporate into your training becomes part of your personal repertoire and part of your art as well.
Paul Carty, Sa Bom
I appreciate your candor in providing your insight. Thank you.
Very well stated Sir!
And nobody wants to give tribute to the Chinese , I do not know what anybody says IT ALL COMES FROM CHINA
You can see hint influences of kung fu. Quite fascinating.
@MrNinja1111 During the Japanese occupation of Korea (1910-1945), Japan banned the Korean people from practicing their native martial arts. They did allow the Koreans to train in Japanese systems such as; karate, judo, etc.
Many of the pioneers of today's Korean martial arts were black belts in Japanese karate systems, Shotokan in particular. Thus the majority of the forms you see in Tang Soo Do are of Okinawan/Japanese origin. Pyong-an Oh Dan (Heian Godan), O Sip Sa Bo (Gojushiho Dai), etc.
Dannyboy, there's a lot more power there than you realize. It's not necessary to overpower each movement for the movement to be powerful. That's why you can have an older/more experienced practitioner appear to barely touch you, but have you doubled over in pain. Additionally, as for this performance, this was the fifth straight day following four previous 14 hour days of TSD. In any event, I'd venture to say that a 5th dan's Pyong Ahn Oh Dan looks different from that of a 4th gup - as well it
Shotokan guys... You didn't create the Heian kata. They originally were named Pinan katas, and by Shorin ryu standards, Shotokan stylists have it all wrong. Shorin Ryu does it one way, Shotokan another, Tang Soo Do does them differently as well.
Shotokan is not "the original" one, there is no "pure" style.
Absolutely correct!
Not only that, but not even Shorin Ryu is original. Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin. So really pretty much everything in the martial arts world is a copy of something else if you go back far enough.
It is the Korean version of the same form. It is known as Pyong Ahn O Dan.
Everything that the Japanese know about martial arts they learned from the Koreans, and the Koreans from the Chinese, the knowledge of the Japanese, whether it be livestock farming, the construction of their wooden houses and everything else, all that knowledge under the continent
Anyone who is offering negative comments on this interpretation of hyungs/katas is very close minded. People need to remember that during the Japanese occupation of Korea, the indigenous martial arts of Korea were not allowed to be practiced. Consequently, the Korean people lost much of their martial culture, history and identity. Who can blame them for taking what they had available and making it their own.
@Evelyn Lucas: Pyong An is of course a blackbelt-hyong. They are just smaller in length. If you say something different, then explain me, why bassai, jion and kongsangkoon are blackbelt hyongs.
Further a blackbelttest should test hyongs, that are teached earlier.
The first part is very simulair to the kata heian godan in shotokan Karate. Is there any connection?
Yes it is a Korean version of it ( O and Go are both 5) from Funakoshi who in turn took it from Master Yasutsune Itosu. It's totally a copy when you look at the dates the forms were invented versus the birth of Hwang Kee and his invention of TSD/SBD.
A 6th Dan should look Bettet than me...........ehhh nahh
Generally, everything that is musical culture, everything advanced came to Japan through the Korean continent, China, even the Japanese or the ancient inhabitants were the Ainu tribe who were nothing more than the Russians or Eskimos of short stature, who did not know the Farming or raising domestic animals they learned everything from Koreans and Chinese and the Japanese learned martial arts from Chinese and Koreans
Pyung Ahn Oh Dan
Bassai Sho
Ji'on
Oh Sip Sa Boo
Those are the 4 Hyungs/Patterns
@barrettokarate@Kinghercules I didn't knew this, and didn't the Korean masters also left marks in the Japanese arts?
Thank you guys both.
Pyahn odan isn't a black belt form its a Gyup form less this is 6 degree gups:/
Yeah but even as a red belt form it tests the 5 Dan's attention to his lower material. Anything goes at these tests including gup material.
Glad you said something.
barrettokarate: Incorrect; Funakoshi Gichen brought Okinawate (originally just called te (hand), or Okinawa hand, from there. It was not called China hand originally. That is Tang Soo Do TKD that is translated as China (Tang) hand (soo) way (do).
It should be noted that the Japanese are mestizos d Korean Chinese and the Ainu tribe
Karate in Korean is [Gong Soo Do]. And this is [Tang Soo Do]. [Tang Soo Do] was made 1,000 years before [Gong Soo Do] was ever introduced in Japan. Many still believe [Tang Soo Do] gave birth to [Gong Soo Do]
You must be reading from a Korean history book. Just having arts older than Karate does not mean they are the origin of it. What's next SSirum is the origin of WWE?
@John Kimchoilee - you are incredibly uneducated. Tang Soo Do was formulated in the mid 1940's as a Koreanized version of Shotokan, which had been taught by the Japanese occupiers to the Korean populace.
Besides me your are the only guy with the correct history.
I have a book that the Grand Master wrote he went to China and studied a style of kung-fu from the Tang dynasty it had crane stuff in it. The higher forms have crane moves. It's a combination of Japanese and Chinese according to the founder. Hwang Kee studied under a wushu master from 1936-1945. It's in his bio on line.
@@jitsroller Nearly every form in TSD was created in Okinawa in the 1870's, by Itosu. None of what you stated is accurate, except that it may be posted somewhere.
@@realtalk9773 It's sad how mislead people are in the Tang Soo Do world (actually it's mostly members of the Moo Duk Kwan, but quite a few others).
@@brownskarate its in the founders biography. His son HC Hwang reiterated the story at a clinic I was at in Korea on the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan.
This is not Tang Soo Do!
Really? I have to ask if this is 6th Dan level do new members get their 1st Dan at entry level? How many levels are there?
Sa Bom Nim: incorrect. Sabumnim: correct. Incorrect: Sa Bom Nim James Bergers and Sa Bom Nim Paul Carty. Correct: James Bergers sabumnim and Paul Carty. Otherwise, interesting watch for me.
incorrect. The offical Revised Romanization, which is offical since 2000) would be sabeomnim. But in general the e is a problem so I always understand, if people pull it. Different Romanizations are pŏm and pem.
Further the Romanization doesn't change the meaning.
Maximilian Arnold
The World Kuk Sool Assoc. site as pdf of the correct spellings in hangul. I take that and the official romanizations. Try and pronounce these properly: Pusan (it is NOT Busan), Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Japan, Shanghai, Zhangshou, Zhaolin, and Tiananmen. I garantee many will mispronounce them. And different romanizing can change meaning because people will mispronounce them based on that.
You misunderstand romanizations. If you read "beom" would you speak it correct? And what is correct? In Korea there are dialects too.
What I say about meaning is the following: If Sb knows nothing about Korea and the korean language, he knows, that sabom means sth like teacher and with that information he can understand commands in the dojang and koreans who are willing to understand himm will too. If you want them to speak it perfect, then they shoul study the korean language.
Maximilian Arnold
Sabum doesn't mean teacher. Kyosa, and sonsaengin everyday useage, mean teacher. Sabum is used in martial arts only, from what I can tell. I have never found it in any dictionary, either. As a note, also, dialects are verbal only. They can be shown in improper spelling, such as in books by Mark Twain, especially, or by the Maine dialects ala Stephen King.
CanadianKyosa Ken dialects aren't just verbal. e.g. bar.wikipedia.org/ a dialect, that understands itself as a language
I partially agree with you. I cited shotokan because that's the origin of Tang Soo Do's crap.
You're not wrong wrong but the Heians were taught to Funakoshi well before Shotokan was it's own thing. So Shotokan may be the origin of TSDs crap, but Master Itosu was the origin of Shotokan's "Crap". Hell even the Tekki/Nihanchi series was passed down to Itosu...
Not to be overly critical. But where's the power and stances? It looked like they were just walking through Pyong Ahn O Dan.
True, it looks like they,re doing a dance routine.
these are japanese katas...no originality..better they copied the exact form opf kata..meaning with emphasis on focus and power... see observe the waythey perform hand movements and the body.. do you think in actual fight it has power to repel and defend the practitioner?
most most Korean stylus practice the same form that come from Shotokan and other Okinawan styles such shorin-ryu karate unfortunately when Korean stylist duties forms the techniques come off as sloppy the timing and breathing are mostly incorrect including the way I was performing many of these techniques myself it wasn't until I was shown these techniques find Advanced Okinawan stylist and I begin to improve my form and create better technique there is a count and a rhythm coordinated with breathing that should be followed while performing these forms lastly one of the big problems that many westerners have an interpreting these forms of Korean systems is knowing what the actual application of the technique actually represents many are actually clueless to what these techniques are really trying to communicate including myself
what crap quality
My God , what is this ?...The first Kata they´re TRYING to do is Heian Godan (Shotokan Karate),no Kime , stances wrong,no Hikite, .....
Puta que o pariu !!!!
No it's 100% Pyong Ahn O Dan. TSD just copied the homework but had to make it a little different so the teacher couldn't tell. Looking at it purely through a Shotokan lens is short sighted. Everyone knows it is where it evolved from, doesn't make this version "wrong".
Shotokan bastardized the Okinawan forms terribly. You should take Shorin Ryu. The way Shotokan does these forms is absolutely terrible. Obviously, there is only one possible way to do these forms and modern Shotokan isn't it. You don't even do your Chinto diagonally or bow with your hands as in kung fu and Shorin Ryu.
NO QI/KI here- 👎