This is not really convincing. If you compare the books written by Paul before the close of the Acts period with those written after then you will see a clear difference. In the later books Paul leaves sick colleagues behind, rather than healing them and he gives advice to Timothy to drink a little wine for his bad stomach etc. The boundary line is really the end of Acts period
@@ntlearning thats completely false. Cahrismatics are the blasphemers who roll around on the floor like people in the Bible did when they were filled with demons and then attribute it to the holy spirit. They babble in gibberish and call it "gifts of tongues", tongues are actual languages and it is FORBIDDEN TO speak in tongues without interpreters. Not all had the gift of tongues. Restorationists (there are no continuationists) are heretics that make false claims and refute the word of God
Christianity is 100% a gift from God, therefore it is 100% supernatural. Jesus quote "The flesh counts for nothing" Cessationist believe the flesh counts for something apparantly. This 'cessationist; idolizing of Self and promotion of Self righteousness heresy! needs to be eliminated from the church' If Satan can get you to believe the gifts are dead he wins a great victory over believers.
Brother Storms gives a very lucid, clear, and respectful presentation. His demeaner is mature and calm,and not overly demonstrative and emotional, as is the case with many Pentecostals. He's a credit to his position on continueism.
Cessationism doesn’t claim healing doesn’t happen today tho. It just claims specific people do not have the gift of healing. But cessationists certainly believe you can pray for someone to be healed.
It claims the gifts aren't active and God doesn't speak directly..neither view can be found in scripture..cessationism is a,powerless dead belief that denies the reason Jesus died which is so we could have a,relationship w God..its a blatant heretical lie
Not really, there are a great number of cessationists who do not believe that healings happen. They act like atheists, denying miracles. Heck you described most continuationists. Most of us believe you shouldn't have a title or make a career out of being a "healer", because we don't control when and how the gifts happen, we're just conduits.
I came out of charismania in the word of faith movement, saw the falseness and almost became atheist while deconstructing. Moved to reformed teaching while reading the scriptures. Had a struggle for a while to accept that the gifts weren't the nonsense I witnessed early in my life. Still cautious, but definitely not a cessationist; thanks for the discussion. JMac speaks highly of Sam Storms' teaching, so what am I supposed to do with that 🤔. Thanks again for helping me stay honest in my spiritual walk.
Meet too 😄 Charismatics can get carried away with "the things of the spirit" whilst reformed teaching tend to make one "lean on their own -human- understanding" ending up twisting scripture to fit their "theology". The truth lies somewhere in between I believe. I've found that fervent prayer in necessary in every step of the way as a believer. God does answer prayers -when we earnestly seek his intervention (for understanding in this case).
@@tyndale7711you're mischaracterizing reformed theology Do you know anything the reformers said? Do you know where they got their ideas and interpretation from???
I have seen personally people being out of order using spiritual gifts but I've also seen them used correctly and it's exactly what they are meant to be; Helps. They especially have helped unbelievers and brought them into truth
Wow, these arguments make soooooo much sense. I might be skeptical and cynical, but if there was was a chance of be becoming a cessationist before (which there really wasn't), there definitely isn't now!
YES SENSE😅, Brother I NEED to know this as well❕ I felt like I was going insane, because I wanted just a taste of sense, witnessing a Pentecostal retreat. I was definitely being crushed❕
Good job, gentlemen! Ex-cessationist here! I was a very firm cessationist/baptist, but God humbled me. One morning (I was 4yo believer) the Holy Ghost fell on me filled me up (hard to describe, was very powerful) and i started to pray in tongues and since then my serving of the Lord started to be more powerfull.
Very thought provoking and interesting discussion! Thanks guys. One question/thought: Several statements were made about praying for healing or for a miracle for someone who was sick, etc. and tying that to the continuationist viewpoint. However, my understanding of the cessationist viewpoint is that God can and does bring healing and works wonders if He chooses to, but the issue of contention is that no one is given the “gift” of healing or miracles anymore. To me, praying for God to heal and work a miracle is radically different than saying “I have the spiritual ability to heal you or work a miracle.”
I know this a year after so you might have already found the answer for this one but just putting this here for anyone that is reading by it. The verse that talks about a “gift” of healing actually says “gifts of healings” so plural on both of them because there is not just one gift of healing. Secondly that if they were the ones that did the healing then why does God get the glory? You could say well God gave them the gift but when it’s not God’s will that a person gets healed and it’s just someone running around healing people that’s not clear in scripture at all, in fact it’s the exact opposite you have Paul leaving someone sick, Paul telling Timothy to drink a little wine with his stomach ailments, Paul in Galatians is in pain and came to them in weakness, why? Because they couldn’t heal every time when they wanted to, it was God’s will not man’s. As for the working of miracles that’s under the same umbrella, why didn’t Paul(who it says has the gift of miracles) just calm the storm when on the boat instead of getting into a ship wreck? Because it is God’s will not ours not the persons, always has been and always will be.
@@Michachu7, can you compare the multitude of miracles in apostles' time and now, ask yourself why, do you want to say that no one has faith nor in good standing with God?
Are the spiritusl gifts something the believer posses, or do some people have to ability to yield to the operating of the Holy Ghost in particular areas? (Just asking because I'm no sure)
An interesting conversation that's worth considering. I went through an agonizing journey from continuationist to cessationist, and then on to where I am now, describing myself as "a Spirit filled cessationist". I think some of your arguments on Ephesians 2:20 are why I'm not firmly in the classic cessationist camp, but, this discussion didn't deal with what I think is the fairly simply explanation that those apostles and prophets who weren't recorded were foundational to their local churches in the same ways that our Bibles are foundational to us now: they weren't giving any extra-Biblical revelation that we don't have today, but were simply giving and applying the same message we have today. I found the argument about complementarianism to be a little disappointing because it's a point that complementarians have to deal with irrespective of this question: the fact is that women did prophesy. So that doesn't disprove cessationism, it merely informs how we should understand complementarianism. I liked the discussion about the signs of the apostle, but found the answer to be unsubstantiated. I'm sure his claims are better argued somewhere else in written form, but I like the CSB's translation, which says "the signs of the apostle were performed with unfailing endurance among you, including signs and wonders and miracles". I think you would be hard pressed in light of passages like Acts 2:42 to argue that signs, wonders, and miracles aren't at least included in the signs of the apostles. For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in God's people and continues to give prophetic unction, leading, and to respond to the prayers of the Saints with healings and miracles. But I don't think these offices continue. I think we've actually come into something better: "love", beginning with the John 15 kind of "abiding in the Father's love" and "bearing much fruit to his glory". I think we ALL can pray and God will accomplish great things. I don't think this is reserved for an elite few "officers of the Church" anymore. Like what Paul said, "I wish you all could prophesy". But these great things don't happen "on demand". They happen when we pray according to God's will in love.
I've always found the idea of the demonized as an interesting player in the discussion between cessationism and continuationism. If people were demonized in the NT and they required prayer and sometimes fasting, did demonization cease too? If it didn't cease, the means of deliverance wouldn't have either.
John MacArthur who is a cessationist preached the gospel to a demon possessed woman in his office and she repented and believed the gospel and was saved and no longer possessed.
Deliverance is possible because it is part of our authority to use His Name as a right included in the New Covenant. For deliverance to no longer be possible, His Name must then have been depleted or else our rights under the New Covenant have lessened in some way. If that seems impossible (and it should) then how can tongues in His Name have ceased? Both are said to be something available to believers "in My Name" per Mark 16.
@@josiahblan9400 It is not a gift. It is simply a role or ministry that can be performed by any Christian. It flows from our being in Christ and having the right to use the Name of Jesus.
One of the requests I have made to GOD is for HIM to disabuse me of false knowledge of HIM. Early one morning as I was driving to a 7 day a week prayer gathering HE spoke to my spirit and asked, “What do you require of me?” I was stunned. I didn’t have an answer. Didn’t even have the presence of mind to respond ‘biblically’, ‘You know LORD.’ or ‘What meanest THOU, this?’ Twelve hours later HE said, “Ask ME for MY love.” [agapé] 1 Cor 8:1-3 …Knowledge makes arrogant, but love [agapé] edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. NAS
Dudes, I like the show and in this case, subject matter. I always saw this with 2 arguments: We are to be the body of Christ, whole and complete, as is Christ always, even through crucifixion, Ps. 34:20 'He keepeth all His bones, not one of them is broken'. To believe in reduction or cessation is to say we as a body at some point became incomplete. So it makes no sense symbolically. We as the church are not handicapped! Nor in any way should our faith be either. Secondly it takes steps of faith to believe for each gift, each gift a new experience, the first and most necessary is salvation. Then the diversities of gifts of the Spirit. Each one requiring a certain amount of faith and for you to seek the gift. Each gift requiring more faith. Each a new experience. To fully understand each gift you must experience it. It's like an unsaved man walking up to a Christian reading a bible and starting to explain salvation to him. Until you have experienced the gift you are not qualified to speak to what it's fully like('You're Mom is ugly').
Cessationism requires one of three or all three of these 1) God ran out of power, 2) God's love ran out, 3) We are no longer in need of Gods power in the redemptive wars against satanic deception and the effects of the fall.
CONGRATS MICHAEL! Oh I am sooooo excited for you. Thrilled to see what God does through you and your family in this next season!!!!!! Wow. So exciting, I will come visit!! I HOPE YOU LOVE OKC.
I've been to churches thru the years and seen people speak in tongues and never have I seen any one interrupt . Also I know the Lord heals today but I've never witnessed any one with an authentic gift of healing or prophecy.
@michaelrowntree2005 your a narcissistic wolf Brown and l praise God he delivered me from the filth on Sid Roth. Blasphemy of the highest order. Shame on you.
Dr. Storms, could you move to NC? 😁 We need you here! There are no good churches in my area! You can start a church in my living room. It will almost be like retirement. 😉
Thank God for Dr. Sam Storms, and these two young men following in his footsteps. What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the CZcams videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Cessationism is being defined incorrectly. As a cessationist (or partial continuationist), I belive in the gifts of the Spirit, I believe in the power of the Spirit, I believe in miracles, and I believe in healing. A cessationist is simply someone who believes all gifts are given today except for the ones in 1 Cor 13:8, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't heal or do miracles today. There's a difference between a Christian doing something through a gift they were given and God himself doing something. We believe God can do anything. Now have three cessationists on to respond.
None of us defined cessationism the way you said. We know full well cessationists believe in miracles. We had Tom Schreiner on for two episodes abt cessationism. I think u will enjoy our dialogue. Blessings.
@@michaelrowntree2005 I wasn't talking about you, but the people posting comments here. Would you have three cessationists respond to the conversation you guys had with Sam?
@@maxxbax9365 not all at once bc it’s too much for one interview. With me and Josh that would be five people. But…. we would have them separately. Or maybe we could do a round table, which I would be open to. We love having cessationists on the show, even tho we r unapologetically continuationists. Blessings
Woah! Big news for Sam and Rowntree. Sam, you have been an incredible blessing in my life. You have helped me work through my own charismatic experiences and my cessationist education. Thank you for teaching the Word faithfully and leading your church (both near and far) so well. Michael. I am overjoyed for you!
'Charismatic experiences' are a thing. And I've seen a lot of charlatanry there. But the existence of a fake dollar bill doesn't mean that there is no real dollar bills.
A good argument for the cessation of the sign gifts is that there is most definitely one gift that has ceased. The gift of apostleship ceased with the last appstle. There are no more apostles. So if one gift has ceased then also others could have ceased. And that is what cessationists believe, that the apostolic sign hifts have ceased. Not all gifts. Also the charismatic argument that modern day prophecy is fallable is very rediculous. That goes against everything that the bible teaches about prophecy. Hope this gives someone something to think about. I used to be charismatic. I thought I could speak in tongues but I was just blabbering nonsense. Tongues was real languages not a secret prayer language. 1 Corinthians 13 when Paul is talking about tongues of angels, he is making a hyperbolic argument that even if he could do all these things and have all knowledge that it would be worthless without love. The whole point is that love is the greater gift. Its not an argument for a secret prayer language. Hope this helps and gives some clear arguments for the other view. God bless.
Sorry guys,butI think the Cessationist arguments are not that the gifts have totally ceased,but rather that they are not normative as they were in the early development of the Church.I do know any Cessationist who would dare put God in a box,so if God wants to work various gifts through people,then he can.
Well, praise God. Ive never met a cessationist who believed in prophecy, tongues, or any other revelatory gifts. But I am glad your experience is different than mine.
@@TheRemnantRadio In my denomination,Eastern Orthodoxy,there are plenty of examples of the gifts working through people,but it would be fair to say they most often occur in those the Church considers to be capital “S’’ Saints.I have also seen it working through normal everyday individuals myself,both in my denomination as well as other denominations I have occasional visited pre Covid, but the point I was trying to make it that it’s a somewhat unusual event that does not happen all the time. Still really enjoy watching many of your shows as they are a good platform to hear different points of emphasis and I really applaud you guys being prepared to explore so many viewpoints,which I believe your channel does better than anyone else.Keep up the good work.
I’m actually kind of surprised that the transition period from the cross to 70 AD didn't come up. This transition period was an antitype to the first Exodus in the wilderness.
@@TheRemnantRadio I wish you guys could set that up - or even the host of “wretched”. I just feel there’s nobody who could execute an interview with someone like that the way YOU guys could!
The observational argument -- even if it were accurate -- is simply not even a valid argument from a biblical worldview. The cessationists are quick to point out to continuationists (and rightly so) that our experience *seeing* the gifts is not a sound basis for theology, because our theology should be derived from *Scripture*, not from personal experience. And yet the supposed absence of the gifts in history is treated as a valid argument for the cessation of gifts. But our theology should be derived from Scripture, not from experience.
Am currently in a cessation believing baptist church. It’s definitely a solid church but I feel called to encourage the church to practice the gifts of the spirit since there have been many needs from people who experience demon oppression and healings which I honestly felt a bit hindered to step in to do because of their beliefs. Any guidance would help and this video was helpful to find the right passages to share! Thank you.
Definitely bring them the overwhelming amount of scripturefor exercising the power of God directed by the Spirit to heal and free your family members and if they don't listen I'd recommend going to a church that better preaches and practices what the Bible says.
@@gabrielclymer5340 I’ve talked to the pastor about a few things but for this Sunday I’ll be actually asking for his scriptural support of the views of the ceasing of dreams. He has straight up said in a sermon that dreams are not for today… at the same time he encourages all the younger teachers to be preaching scripture so I’m hoping to hold him to that same standard without being harsh or overstepping any boundaries of grace and love.
@HeIsWorthy777 yea amen! Bless them Lord with the humility to hear your Word. It's mind-blowing to teach that given the fact that literally Acts 2 says that dreams and visions are poured out in the last days. And we are Definitely in the last days ever since he said that.
@@gabrielclymer5340 I know right? My pastor had a Q&A at church on a Wednesday night and I asked about dreams, visions and prophecy in the end times as spoken of by Joel and mentioned in Acts. He basically went on a whole story of how he had a dream of knowing where the Keys he lost was at exactly and ended by saying “it could have just been my subconscious that saw it and brought it to my dream”. 🤦🏻♂️lol
Where are these folks with these gifts ? In hiding? Jesus didn't hide the gifts he had . Peter and Paul didn't hide the gifts they just eventually stopped---wonder why ?
It was heartbreaking but o just told my church I’m not returning. They are Calvinist, disoensationalists, complementarian, cessatiinists, and believe the Irving/darby lie of the rapture and think Scofield is the all-knowing prophet.
A. An office was a public position that individuals held in the church. It was recognized by ALL believers that the particular person held this office. A gift, however, is different than an office. For example, a person who has the gift of showing mercy does not have an office in the church of showing mercy. The gift is used without any recognition of a public office. Hence, since many today who falsely claim to be Apostles are unknown by the entire body, but only in their local church community where they function, they cannot be such. “ I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people. You have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and you have found them to be liars.” (Rev. 2:2)(2 Cor. 11:13-15)
Not at all. How many prophets spoke between Malachi and John the Baptist? How many prophets have spoken since John of Patmos said "do not add or subtract from this book"? Cessationsism is a Biblical concept and is the correct doctrine. Otherwise you get Word of Faith and NAR and Jehovah's Witness.
@@RockandrollNegro there’s several prophets and servants of God who spoke between Malachi and John the Baptist. And there has been several who have spoken after John Of Patmos as well. By adding or subtracting to this book is literally what it is, to add to the book or take away from the book. You don’t add to the book if God still talks to his people about events to come. You don’t get Word of Faith and NAR and Jehovah’s Witness because people add or take away from the book. You get it all by people rejecting the teachings of the book, which is what you’re doing right now.
I'm on my second listen.. when Dr Storm makes the comment that of course in the early years of the church..100, 200 AD I'm guessing he's talking about, that of course spiritual gifts diminished because they didn't have the written word.. that makes no sense to me. God doesn't need his written word in my hand to teach me his truths. Yes I should turn to the written word because it's so available to me. I remember hearing a story of a man in the depths of africa, or Muslim country, can't remember exactly where but he received from the Lord the entire book of John and wrote it down not understanding what he was writing at the time. God can do what only God can do! About 36-37 minutes in.
What is the biblical argument for the completion of Canon/Closure of Scripture from a Continuation perspective? I've only heard a Cessationistic perspective on this.
I never thought about this before: Paul says, "You have people coming amongst you claiming to be apostles. If they can claim that; I can claim it more." (Paraphrased) Why wouldn't he have just said, "Now we all know that only James, John (13 altogether) can be apostles... No one had Bibles back then, but surely they could've memorized apostles' names, and had them written in letters. "If anyone comes among you claiming to be an apostle, remember!! These are the apostles names!"
A response to the statement/question about quality of miracles. I think you should comb the Bible for miracles, and then plot them over time. I think you will find that in the entire history of Israel and the Church age, miracles, even “quality” miracles were distinctly rare. Perhaps in the time of Jesus they were commonplace. Craig Keener was mentioned. Good. Miracles are alive and well through the power of the Spirit. At the Lord’s will and perfect timing.
Yup. This doesn’t negate the gifts of the Spirit today. There are periods of heightened miracles but even that doesn’t discount the gifts of the Spirit being in operation after the apostolic age. Also maybe one needs to broaden their scope beyond the West and see what is happening in other parts of the world.
Great video! to be fair would also love to hear the counter argument from the cessationist side. Would be great if you're able to invite a guest from the Ligonier Ministry.
@@dborisov23 that's right, they do have them but not as much as the continuationist and most of the videos were internal discussion. Hoping for a more formidable guest to explain the position of cessationism better.
@@DillonJan gotcha. Yea idk I just never understood the cessationist side ever. I think this is so much an American issues then the global church. As someone who grew up in Ukraine being a Christian was always associated with the supernatural. Witchcraft and so many occult practices are all over the world and practiced. the U.S western mind set is so set on “evidence and science” they miss so much of the supernatural view of the Bible. I don’t get how someone can read the Bible and go away like yea that was only for a period of time.
@@DillonJan we’ll for sure get more cessationists to defend it. We had Tom Schreiner twice and he is prob the leading scholar on this. We do more continuationism bc we openly contend for that position. But we always love a good cessationist chat. Thx for the thoughts
there is a brother from china who fasted 70 days in jail and did not die. He explained how he fasted more days than Jesus as 'greater works'. I thought wow i bet nobody wants to do that greater work.
So I have come to the position of a continuationist but I have no clue on how to look or find a good church that does it but biblically. My wife has had a terrible experience in the past and does not look forward at all to going to a church like this. Which is why I am perplexed on how to find a church that is balanced. We will be living In the Tulsa Ok area soon if that helps with an answer.
Im struggling with this. I have recently come out Of NAR and Word of Faith. Im trying to unlearn the false and learn what is true. I get stuck on the verse that says we will due greater things then Jesus. We havent. How many people have you raised from the dead? How many demons have you cast out of people? How many people have you healed? Not as many as jesus thats for sure. If we have that ability then why are childrens hospitals not cleared out? Their has to be another interpretation of this verse.
The cessationist perspective is that we will do greater works quantitatively rather than qualitatively. The continuationist perspective could appeal to the Apostles, Paul healed an entire island of people (Malta) and because the gifts have to be matured in and grown into as well as sought and taught, there is a large contingency within the church to steward such power and I believe the NAR and WoF have utterly failed in that regard, so have the cessationist. P.S. scripture is clear that the gift of healing is not an on demand, human-willed action. It’s God’s sovereign choice through the means of man’s faith. God bless
We can all agree that cessationism is not affirmed in the bible (which doesn't necessarily make it false). The real issue is the quality and frequency problem discussed around 45:00 mins which was brushed aside fairly quickly. The response that nothing we have now is the same quality is insufficient and arguably false. There are some great teachers around. Surely the same and greater works include the same quality, and perhaps even greater quality. Without an adequate answer to this problem it's seems appropriate to exercise caution and to avoid trying to force the gifts into action, which as the video notes earlier has led to some horrible and shameful displays. Moreover, without an adequate answer to this question, cessationism remains on the table. In this regard, I'm sorry to say the video has failed in 'crushing cessationist arguments'.
I am not cessationists ,but the problem with me is the exercise of the spiritual gifts ; for example the gift of tongues as a second blessings. Teaching people how to speak in tongues instead of allowing the Spirit of God to distribute the gifts. I have been a place where people are taught , I received mine without anyone laying hands on me , concepts like soaking prayers etc are not healthy
All the gifts require practice and often time coaching to start. Just because they are gifts doesn't mean they don't need practice and growth in them :) Teaching Prophecy Etc I speak in tongues like you but because I over thought things and was proud it took a brother really helping me open my mouth and babble it out to start. This is more common than not in my experience.
the bible says that when the perfect comes we will know 'as we are known' we definitely do not know as we are known through the Bible. Also Paul said to keep in mind that HE was writing scripture--so we don't see him saying that people with spiritual gifts are all writing scripture. Not every prophet from the schools of prophecy in scripture had his words put down in the Bible. Very few actually.
I dont know about other people but I saw a teenager on a weelchair for months that was my husband neighbor stand up and walk after a woman of God pray for him. He is walking since than and he was preparing for surgery bc doctors could not do anything else for him. I witnessed a woman dying in hospital with uterine cancer in the last stages of it, get up and go after being prayed for and she stayed in my church for a while after that. So, i can't even for a moment say the gifts are not alive becouse i lived it and i am not pentecostal. I grew up in latin America in a Baptist church.
What about others who are envolved in false teaching? Do you make excuses for them? Do you not see the danger of cessationist false teaching? They are denying the very words of Jesus as truth.
UPDATE: Sam's house of cards has fallen! You have now scrubbed so many videos of Storms regarding Bickle and the prophetic. Why not scrub this one??? Remnant Radio is now engaging in a huge cover up of its own. Don't you see the double standard?
It seems like scripture does say that some gifts will “cease,” and does not say that they will “continue.” …that the man of God might be “perfect,” ie thoroughly furnished.
@@Jobthirteenfive135 Why? do you not like it? I didn't find a better video on it. But there is not that much out there for the case of cessationism from a biblically focused stance.
Are you serious? Sam used Bickle endlessly promoting his false prophetic claims and now Remnant Radio has scrubbed the videos. This coverup is material for the Roys report.
Desiring spiritual gifts is not a reason that many are weak/of little faith, sickly/spiritually sick, and sleep/perish but because we eat the flesh and blood of Christ not being worthy. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Not "give up the ghosts," but actually receive the ministry of Holy Spirit! All glory to God for His Spirit. I have loved learning so much from solid biblical teachers, only to be grieved to hear them teach straight up to the power of Holy Spirit and back away and not encourage pressing into Him to be filled to walk not in the flesh. Yes Jesus freed us from the power of sin, but the Spirit empowers us to walk in that freedom. I can't do it in my own will or strength. If I could, I would just be a self-help hero. When I'm trying in my own strength, I always fail. Same great teachers have weakened my faith by taking authority away in the spirit relam. I won't need the authority to bind a demonic spirit and pray release of Holy Spirit ministry upon an individual or situation during the next phase of eschatology (the millennial reign) because then the Perfect will be reigning. I am sealed and He is indwelling, when I need refreshing from life, I long for that stirring up and filling after my complete surrender. I desire to press in more. I think Paul taught about the women being emotional as their response to the Spirit. He just inferred, husband's need to be better than Adam was. In my opinion!
We're tongues and gift of healing and other miraculous gifts present before the time of the Messiah generally? I would argue no. There may have been isolated events of healing but no "gift". If there was no precedent for miraculous gifts before the Messianic and Apostolic period why would we expect it afterwards? I came into this discussion a cessationist and I am leaving with the same conviction.
I know cessationists that think that God can heal, do various miracles of God as he wills. So are there different levels of cessation? There are just no modern Apostles however. The gifts are still active just not in the sense of extreme charismatic/prosperity folks.
Hey lets just end this once for all. Bring those with the gifts forward [ if you can find any of them ] and let then bring glory to God and heal a few who were born blind or deformed from birth.
@@dekka213l No we just don't ever see any of those who are supposed to have these gifts actually perform anything supernatural like Jesus or Peter Or Paul. Where are they---in hiding?
At about 41:30, the truth is told that we don't see the gifts operating like in the book of Acts and then suggest that we should be asking God why not? instead of concluding they are not for today. I agree 100% and realized this 40 years ago. Unfortunately, the entire rest of this video suggests that we do see them and they have been prolific throughout the Church age. Read the Didache and other writings of the early church fathers and you will quickly realize that the spiritual condition of the church today is woefully immature. Then thank God that the miraculous signs of the Spirit are equally diminished. If Annanias and Saphira fell over dead for their little lie, what would happen to the false miracles, signs, wonders, and tongues movement today if the Spirit was operating in the same power among us? Many claim to have the gift of healing today. The claims of some prominent leaders have been tested and so far, none have passed as having the gift of healing. God answering prayer for healing by healing someone is not the gift of healing. If you know someone out there with the real gift of healing, have them on your show. Keep praying fervently for the sick and for the gift of healing. But please stop the false noise.
Sam did well with grace towards cessationists. The hosts are a little hostile towards cessationists. I'm on the fence and investigating both sides of the argument. The hosts seem a bit arrogant which is off putting towards the continuation argument.
My only disagreement is with the four daughters of Phillip being called prophetesses. It doesn't actually say that. They prophesied. You can prophesy and not be a prophet. The Bible tells us all to covet to prophesy in 1 Corinthians 14. I believe we can see the difference between prophesying as a gift in the church, to edify the church, and the ministry gift of the prophet in that very text of Acts 21. Agabus was actually called a prophet and we see his ministry a couple of times in the early church in Acts 11 and Acts 21. He is called a prophet. There is a difference between the ministry gift of prophet some may be called to, but not all are told to cove it or seek it. The gift of prophesy which is speaking to men to edification, exhortation and comfort we are all encouraged to seek earnestly after. That doesn't mean we're all called to be prophets. That may seem a little nit picky, but I do think it's an important distinction to avoid confusion. But still a great podcast. Thanks for sharing!
I'm not a Cessationist in the sense that I think gifts are not operational. However, that does not mean that they can be tapped upon command. I find it interesting that nobody wants to talk about snake handling Pentecostals. Many of them get sent to the hospital for major injuries including death. Guess what, I respect a spirit that shoots for the unambiguous. Anyone can say they cast out a devil. Maybe they did, maybe they did not. Anyone can prophecy to a large enough crowd and you will get a hit. Someone has to have had a bad day, had a death in the family, a new job, anxiety, or an unresolved issue. Psychics do it all the time. However, the snake handling Pentecostals want to really find out. Venom is unambiguous. Now people will say that is putting God to the test. Perhaps, but is asking for tongues putting God to the test? Either you can ask for a gift or you can't ask for a gift. I hear wild stories about preachers kicking down hospital doors and emptying out the emergency room. Okay, cool, now hold this Gaboon Viper. I agree with Sam Storms, this topic is nothing to divide over. I also appreciate his pension for reading over study. He is steeped in scripture. That is good. Yet let me explain the perfect. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Hebrews 7:19 FOR THE LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a BETER HOPE DID; by the which we draw nigh unto God. It's the revelation of Jesus Christ that is the perfect. Hebrews 7:20-22 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. So I wouldn't say it is the necessarily the 66 books per say, but the revelation that Paul received on the road to Damascus that can be accessed by scripture. When Jesus rose from the dead after finishing his work upon the cross, the PERFECT had already come. Now Paul is talking about the Afterlife. None can deny. Yet this reminds me of when Martha was talking about the resurrection of the dead. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Martha was talking about a REAL event. She wasn't lying, nor was she mislead. It is going to happen, yet Jesus was saying even as that event is truly coming, it is has already arrived in his person. Paul is talking about passing from this life into the next, but ALSO Jesus lives inside of us RIGHT NOW. We have the perfect now. Eternal life is not just a far off promise, it is occurring right now in the believer and will continue past life on this earth. So in a sense the perfect is a specific time and place after we die and in another sense it is a person in Jesus Christ available to us right now. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that CAME DOWN from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN heaven. God sits outside of time. When we commune with him deeply, we can experience this if even for a moment.
Is the Canon closed? At 30:30-34:50 you say that when God speaks a revelatory word it’s always inerrant and infallible. I would agree in that it always accomplishes that for which God intended it. But you went on to discuss and even implied that God speaks the same way he did to the authors of scripture to some in the church today. Why then would that not add to the canon of scripture? You can’t say, as you did, well men may subjectively interpret and apply it in different ways because you could use that same argument of the original authors and the written word. Help me here? I sit on the fence but lean towards continuationism but don’t see prophetic words of today or words of knowledge for today as something that meets the authority of scripture. Does it have to be canonical? I’ve been preaching (manuscript guy here) and sensed the Lord give me a word that was not contemplated anywhere in my prep time but there it was to be spoken… and God used it mightily to accomplish his purpose. It was from the Spirit but not something that I would place on the level of the written Word of God!!
Is the argument in practice more about where you (individually and as a congregation) place emphasis on Christian character and obedience? Continuationists do tend to soft pedal on obedience and individual cooperation in sanctification, as a result there is little apparent discernment functioning...any and all spirits are deemed holy...whereas the cessationists being more focused on obedience and individual cooperation in sanctification (but not that much more perhaps) and ranking fear of the Lord more highly resist the temptation to label personal prophecy as such and instead use some other euphemism...terminology aside the similarities show in practice. Done well both sides are describing different sides of the same hill, problem is that it is rarely done well by the continuationists because the tares hog the mic or go unchallenged and clog up youtube with videos of their antics.
This is not really convincing. If you compare the books written by Paul before the close of the Acts period with those written after then you will see a clear difference. In the later books Paul leaves sick colleagues behind, rather than healing them and he gives advice to Timothy to drink a little wine for his bad stomach etc. The boundary line is really the end of Acts period
After watching Justin Peters for several days, I needed this! Thank you
Don't listen to Justin Peters
Well Sadly JP is a calvinist. Calvinism is wrong
😂 Justin Peters ….. those cessationists have unbelief and quench the Holy Spirit
@@ntlearning thats completely false. Cahrismatics are the blasphemers who roll around on the floor like people in the Bible did when they were filled with demons and then attribute it to the holy spirit. They babble in gibberish and call it "gifts of tongues", tongues are actual languages and it is FORBIDDEN TO speak in tongues without interpreters. Not all had the gift of tongues. Restorationists (there are no continuationists) are heretics that make false claims and refute the word of God
Christianity is 100% a gift from God, therefore it is 100% supernatural.
Jesus quote "The flesh counts for nothing"
Cessationist believe the flesh counts for something apparantly.
This 'cessationist; idolizing of Self and promotion of Self righteousness heresy! needs to be eliminated from the church'
If Satan can get you to believe the gifts are dead he wins a great victory over believers.
Brother Storms gives a very lucid, clear, and respectful presentation. His demeaner is mature and calm,and not overly demonstrative and emotional, as is the case with many Pentecostals. He's a credit to his position on continueism.
Cessationism doesn’t claim healing doesn’t happen today tho. It just claims specific people do not have the gift of healing. But cessationists certainly believe you can pray for someone to be healed.
Yeah, I know cessationists that have documented medical miracles, pretty sure no cessationists believe that miracles are gone
@@tomtemple69 there are some that deny any miracles today, but they are far from the majority.
@@Jay_the_giant the salvation of sinners and regeneration is the greatest miracle 🤷
It claims the gifts aren't active and God doesn't speak directly..neither view can be found in scripture..cessationism is a,powerless dead belief that denies the reason Jesus died which is so we could have a,relationship w God..its a blatant heretical lie
Not really, there are a great number of cessationists who do not believe that healings happen. They act like atheists, denying miracles.
Heck you described most continuationists. Most of us believe you shouldn't have a title or make a career out of being a "healer", because we don't control when and how the gifts happen, we're just conduits.
You cannot find a bible verse within the closed canon of Scripture that says these gifts have already ceased.
I came out of charismania in the word of faith movement, saw the falseness and almost became atheist while deconstructing. Moved to reformed teaching while reading the scriptures. Had a struggle for a while to accept that the gifts weren't the nonsense I witnessed early in my life. Still cautious, but definitely not a cessationist; thanks for the discussion. JMac speaks highly of Sam Storms' teaching, so what am I supposed to do with that 🤔.
Thanks again for helping me stay honest in my spiritual walk.
Same story as me
Meet too 😄
Charismatics can get carried away with "the things of the spirit" whilst reformed teaching tend to make one "lean on their own -human- understanding" ending up twisting scripture to fit their "theology". The truth lies somewhere in between I believe.
I've found that fervent prayer in necessary in every step of the way as a believer. God does answer prayers -when we earnestly seek his intervention (for understanding in this case).
@@tyndale7711you're mischaracterizing reformed theology
Do you know anything the reformers said? Do you know where they got their ideas and interpretation from???
@tomtemple69 cessationism is false..period.. and admit it or not..cessatiinism is part of current reformed theology
I have seen personally people being out of order using spiritual gifts but I've also seen them used correctly and it's exactly what they are meant to be; Helps. They especially have helped unbelievers and brought them into truth
Wow, these arguments make soooooo much sense. I might be skeptical and cynical, but if there was was a chance of be becoming a cessationist before (which there really wasn't), there definitely isn't now!
YES SENSE😅, Brother I NEED to know this as well❕
I felt like I was going insane, because I wanted just a taste of sense, witnessing a Pentecostal retreat.
I was definitely being crushed❕
I love philosophical and existential inquiry, I felt like I had to kill it for the sake of the spirit❕😭
Good job, gentlemen! Ex-cessationist here!
I was a very firm cessationist/baptist, but God humbled me. One morning (I was 4yo believer) the Holy Ghost fell on me filled me up (hard to describe, was very powerful) and i started to pray in tongues and since then my serving of the Lord started to be more powerfull.
Very thought provoking and interesting discussion! Thanks guys. One question/thought: Several statements were made about praying for healing or for a miracle for someone who was sick, etc. and tying that to the continuationist viewpoint. However, my understanding of the cessationist viewpoint is that God can and does bring healing and works wonders if He chooses to, but the issue of contention is that no one is given the “gift” of healing or miracles anymore. To me, praying for God to heal and work a miracle is radically different than saying “I have the spiritual ability to heal you or work a miracle.”
I know this a year after so you might have already found the answer for this one but just putting this here for anyone that is reading by it. The verse that talks about a “gift” of healing actually says “gifts of healings” so plural on both of them because there is not just one gift of healing. Secondly that if they were the ones that did the healing then why does God get the glory? You could say well God gave them the gift but when it’s not God’s will that a person gets healed and it’s just someone running around healing people that’s not clear in scripture at all, in fact it’s the exact opposite you have Paul leaving someone sick, Paul telling Timothy to drink a little wine with his stomach ailments, Paul in Galatians is in pain and came to them in weakness, why? Because they couldn’t heal every time when they wanted to, it was God’s will not man’s. As for the working of miracles that’s under the same umbrella, why didn’t Paul(who it says has the gift of miracles) just calm the storm when on the boat instead of getting into a ship wreck? Because it is God’s will not ours not the persons, always has been and always will be.
You're very correct, they are full in one gift which I'll not mention because it's easy to fake.
@@Michachu7, can you compare the multitude of miracles in apostles' time and now, ask yourself why, do you want to say that no one has faith nor in good standing with God?
Are the spiritusl gifts something the believer posses, or do some people have to ability to yield to the operating of the Holy Ghost in particular areas?
(Just asking because I'm no sure)
An interesting conversation that's worth considering.
I went through an agonizing journey from continuationist to cessationist, and then on to where I am now, describing myself as "a Spirit filled cessationist". I think some of your arguments on Ephesians 2:20 are why I'm not firmly in the classic cessationist camp, but, this discussion didn't deal with what I think is the fairly simply explanation that those apostles and prophets who weren't recorded were foundational to their local churches in the same ways that our Bibles are foundational to us now: they weren't giving any extra-Biblical revelation that we don't have today, but were simply giving and applying the same message we have today.
I found the argument about complementarianism to be a little disappointing because it's a point that complementarians have to deal with irrespective of this question: the fact is that women did prophesy. So that doesn't disprove cessationism, it merely informs how we should understand complementarianism.
I liked the discussion about the signs of the apostle, but found the answer to be unsubstantiated. I'm sure his claims are better argued somewhere else in written form, but I like the CSB's translation, which says "the signs of the apostle were performed with unfailing endurance among you, including signs and wonders and miracles". I think you would be hard pressed in light of passages like Acts 2:42 to argue that signs, wonders, and miracles aren't at least included in the signs of the apostles.
For me, I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in God's people and continues to give prophetic unction, leading, and to respond to the prayers of the Saints with healings and miracles. But I don't think these offices continue. I think we've actually come into something better: "love", beginning with the John 15 kind of "abiding in the Father's love" and "bearing much fruit to his glory". I think we ALL can pray and God will accomplish great things. I don't think this is reserved for an elite few "officers of the Church" anymore. Like what Paul said, "I wish you all could prophesy". But these great things don't happen "on demand". They happen when we pray according to God's will in love.
Prophecy is simply revealing that which God has said
Which is necessary when the Scripture hasn't been written, the canon wasn't closed till 100ad
I've always found the idea of the demonized as an interesting player in the discussion between cessationism and continuationism. If people were demonized in the NT and they required prayer and sometimes fasting, did demonization cease too? If it didn't cease, the means of deliverance wouldn't have either.
Excellent point
John MacArthur who is a cessationist preached the gospel to a demon possessed woman in his office and she repented and believed the gospel and was saved and no longer possessed.
Deliverance is possible because it is part of our authority to use His Name as a right included in the New Covenant. For deliverance to no longer be possible, His Name must then have been depleted or else our rights under the New Covenant have lessened in some way. If that seems impossible (and it should) then how can tongues in His Name have ceased? Both are said to be something available to believers "in My Name" per Mark 16.
What is the gift of casting demons out called in the Bible?
@@josiahblan9400 It is not a gift. It is simply a role or ministry that can be performed by any Christian. It flows from our being in Christ and having the right to use the Name of Jesus.
Wow. CONGRATS Rowntree!
Thank you!
One of the requests I have made to GOD is for HIM to disabuse me of false knowledge of HIM. Early one morning as I was driving to a 7 day a week prayer gathering HE spoke to my spirit and asked, “What do you require of me?” I was stunned. I didn’t have an answer. Didn’t even have the presence of mind to respond ‘biblically’, ‘You know LORD.’ or ‘What meanest THOU, this?’ Twelve hours later HE said, “Ask ME for MY love.” [agapé]
1 Cor 8:1-3 …Knowledge makes arrogant, but love [agapé] edifies.
2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. NAS
Congrats Sam and Michael. 🙏 Prayerfully I can come up there in Feb!
Thank you!
That would be awesome 😎
Dudes, I like the show and in this case, subject matter. I always saw this with 2 arguments: We are to be the body of Christ, whole and complete, as is Christ always, even through crucifixion, Ps. 34:20 'He keepeth all His bones, not one of them is broken'. To believe in reduction or cessation is to say we as a body at some point became incomplete. So it makes no sense symbolically. We as the church are not handicapped! Nor in any way should our faith be either. Secondly it takes steps of faith to believe for each gift, each gift a new experience, the first and most necessary is salvation. Then the diversities of gifts of the Spirit. Each one requiring a certain amount of faith and for you to seek the gift. Each gift requiring more faith. Each a new experience. To fully understand each gift you must experience it. It's like an unsaved man walking up to a Christian reading a bible and starting to explain salvation to him. Until you have experienced the gift you are not qualified to speak to what it's fully like('You're Mom is ugly').
can yall pray for my arthritis? thanks bros and sis
God, heal Samuel's arthritis. ❤
Cessationism requires one of three or all three of these 1) God ran out of power, 2) God's love ran out, 3) We are no longer in need of Gods power in the redemptive wars against satanic deception and the effects of the fall.
New level of respect after addressing the phrase “the sufficiency of scripture”.
A miss representation of sufficiency of scripture man. It’s sad
CONGRATS MICHAEL! Oh I am sooooo excited for you. Thrilled to see what God does through you and your family in this next season!!!!!! Wow. So exciting, I will come visit!! I HOPE YOU LOVE OKC.
Thank you!!! That would be great 😊
Thank you for this discussion. It is a question I have had for too long. What you said here makes sense.
I've been to churches thru the years and seen people speak in tongues and never have I seen any one interrupt . Also I know the Lord heals today but I've never witnessed any one with an authentic gift of healing or prophecy.
I urge you to seek the Lord for guidance, he will lead you to a place where healing and the gifts occur
Yeah it's almost like most charismatics are tongues interpretation cessaationists😂
Wow! What an opportunity Michael, may you be blessed and strengthen by the LORD!
Thank you! 🙏
@michaelrowntree2005 your a narcissistic wolf Brown and l praise God he delivered me from the filth on Sid Roth. Blasphemy of the highest order. Shame on you.
Excited for you, Michael! Praying for Wellspring, you and your family, and Remnant Radio!
Just finished Patrick's book... had the same thoughts :)
Thank you!!
Desire the gifts. Pray earnestly for them.
Paul is addressing the church, we can pray for a trillion years for the gift we want, doesn't mean the Spirit will give it to us
Dr. Storms, could you move to NC? 😁 We need you here! There are no good churches in my area! You can start a church in my living room. It will almost be like retirement. 😉
Nooo!! He needs to move to Western PA! 😉
I have to vote for NC too!
We need leaders like him here in Sweden!
There are some great Churches in NC. JD Greer's church is there.
@@amyclutter7259 , as your pastor’s wife… I see this 😂
Congratulations Rowntree! This is great news as I often visit Bridgeway from Tulsa!
Thanks Daniel! I look forward to meeting you
This was soooo good. Going to rewatch to take notes.
Thank God for Dr. Sam Storms, and these two young men following in his footsteps.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the CZcams videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Responsible Continuation, love it! Thanks for this conversation. 🔥🔥🔥
Cessationism is being defined incorrectly. As a cessationist (or partial continuationist), I belive in the gifts of the Spirit, I believe in the power of the Spirit, I believe in miracles, and I believe in healing. A cessationist is simply someone who believes all gifts are given today except for the ones in 1 Cor 13:8, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't heal or do miracles today. There's a difference between a Christian doing something through a gift they were given and God himself doing something. We believe God can do anything.
Now have three cessationists on to respond.
None of us defined cessationism the way you said. We know full well cessationists believe in miracles. We had Tom Schreiner on for two episodes abt cessationism. I think u will enjoy our dialogue. Blessings.
@@michaelrowntree2005 I wasn't talking about you, but the people posting comments here. Would you have three cessationists respond to the conversation you guys had with Sam?
@@maxxbax9365 not all at once bc it’s too much for one interview. With me and Josh that would be five people.
But…. we would have them separately. Or maybe we could do a round table, which I would be open to. We love having cessationists on the show, even tho we r unapologetically continuationists.
Blessings
@@michaelrowntree2005 A round table would be great. I'm thankful for you guys, even though you're unapologetically continuationists. 😀
@@maxxbax9365 🤣🤣
Woah! Big news for Sam and Rowntree. Sam, you have been an incredible blessing in my life. You have helped me work through my own charismatic experiences and my cessationist education. Thank you for teaching the Word faithfully and leading your church (both near and far) so well. Michael. I am overjoyed for you!
Thanks Sam!
'Charismatic experiences' are a thing. And I've seen a lot of charlatanry there. But the existence of a fake dollar bill doesn't mean that there is no real dollar bills.
A good argument for the cessation of the sign gifts is that there is most definitely one gift that has ceased. The gift of apostleship ceased with the last appstle. There are no more apostles. So if one gift has ceased then also others could have ceased. And that is what cessationists believe, that the apostolic sign hifts have ceased. Not all gifts. Also the charismatic argument that modern day prophecy is fallable is very rediculous. That goes against everything that the bible teaches about prophecy. Hope this gives someone something to think about. I used to be charismatic. I thought I could speak in tongues but I was just blabbering nonsense. Tongues was real languages not a secret prayer language. 1 Corinthians 13 when Paul is talking about tongues of angels, he is making a hyperbolic argument that even if he could do all these things and have all knowledge that it would be worthless without love. The whole point is that love is the greater gift. Its not an argument for a secret prayer language.
Hope this helps and gives some clear arguments for the other view.
God bless.
Sorry guys,butI think the Cessationist arguments are not that the gifts have totally ceased,but rather that they are not normative as they were in the early development of the Church.I do know any Cessationist who would dare put God in a box,so if God wants to work various gifts through people,then he can.
Well, praise God. Ive never met a cessationist who believed in prophecy, tongues, or any other revelatory gifts. But I am glad your experience is different than mine.
@@TheRemnantRadio In my denomination,Eastern Orthodoxy,there are plenty of examples of the gifts working through people,but it would be fair to say they most often occur in those the Church considers to be capital “S’’ Saints.I have also seen it working through normal everyday individuals myself,both in my denomination as well as other denominations I have occasional visited pre Covid, but the point I was trying to make it that it’s a somewhat unusual event that does not happen all the time. Still really enjoy watching many of your shows as they are a good platform to hear different points of emphasis and I really applaud you guys being prepared to explore so many viewpoints,which I believe your channel does better than anyone else.Keep up the good work.
I know quite a few
Wow Rowntree! Happy for you!
Thank you!!
I’m actually kind of surprised that the transition period from the cross to 70 AD didn't come up. This transition period was an antitype to the first Exodus in the wilderness.
Would you guys ever have on Justin Peter’s ?
Absolutely
@@TheRemnantRadio I wish you guys could set that up - or even the host of “wretched”. I just feel there’s nobody who could execute an interview with someone like that the way YOU guys could!
I bet he wouldn't go on. He seems to duck invitations to dialogue with charismatics.
This would be amazing.
This is wonderful to listen to - I'm half way through and my spirit is jumping with joy.
The observational argument -- even if it were accurate -- is simply not even a valid argument from a biblical worldview. The cessationists are quick to point out to continuationists (and rightly so) that our experience *seeing* the gifts is not a sound basis for theology, because our theology should be derived from *Scripture*, not from personal experience. And yet the supposed absence of the gifts in history is treated as a valid argument for the cessation of gifts. But our theology should be derived from Scripture, not from experience.
BIG congrats to Rowntree! Stepping into the pulpit after Jack Deere and Sam Storms…what an honor.
Thank you Jake!
Am currently in a cessation believing baptist church. It’s definitely a solid church but I feel called to encourage the church to practice the gifts of the spirit since there have been many needs from people who experience demon oppression and healings which I honestly felt a bit hindered to step in to do because of their beliefs.
Any guidance would help and this video was helpful to find the right passages to share! Thank you.
Definitely bring them the overwhelming amount of scripturefor exercising the power of God directed by the Spirit to heal and free your family members and if they don't listen I'd recommend going to a church that better preaches and practices what the Bible says.
@@gabrielclymer5340
I’ve talked to the pastor about a few things but for this Sunday I’ll be actually asking for his scriptural support of the views of the ceasing of dreams. He has straight up said in a sermon that dreams are not for today… at the same time he encourages all the younger teachers to be preaching scripture so I’m hoping to hold him to that same standard without being harsh or overstepping any boundaries of grace and love.
@HeIsWorthy777 yea amen!
Bless them Lord with the humility to hear your Word.
It's mind-blowing to teach that given the fact that literally Acts 2 says that dreams and visions are poured out in the last days. And we are Definitely in the last days ever since he said that.
@@gabrielclymer5340
I know right? My pastor had a Q&A at church on a Wednesday night and I asked about dreams, visions and prophecy in the end times as spoken of by Joel and mentioned in Acts. He basically went on a whole story of how he had a dream of knowing where the Keys he lost was at exactly and ended by saying “it could have just been my subconscious that saw it and brought it to my dream”. 🤦🏻♂️lol
@@YeshuaSaves3 ohhhh, please, do fill us in on how things went!
When Sam said “outlaw them in their by-laws” 😂😂
Thank you for a thorogh explanation.
Where are these folks with these gifts ? In hiding? Jesus didn't hide the gifts he had . Peter and Paul didn't hide the gifts they just eventually stopped---wonder why ?
Sure appreciate Dr. Storms' clear expositions!
My brother drew a circle around himself to fence me out. I drew a larger circle to take him in.
This is great.
I have often said that if you just read the Bible with no context of every theology, you would believe they are for today.
It was heartbreaking but o just told my church I’m not returning. They are Calvinist, disoensationalists, complementarian, cessatiinists, and believe the Irving/darby lie of the rapture and think Scofield is the all-knowing prophet.
Thanks for the fantastic vid. Keep it up guys!
I am glad I found this. Thank you guys for making this video.
A lot of churches today pretty much stop at the rapture. They don’t talk about anything past that point, so that’s where their confusion begins
A. An office was a public position that individuals held in the church. It was recognized by ALL believers that the particular person held this office. A gift, however, is different than an office. For example, a person who has the gift of showing mercy does not have an office in the church of showing mercy. The gift is used without any recognition of a public office.
Hence, since many today who falsely claim to be Apostles are unknown by the entire body, but only in their local church community where they function, they cannot be such.
“ I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people. You have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and you have found them to be liars.” (Rev. 2:2)(2 Cor. 11:13-15)
Cessationists love to claim that they’re Sola Scriptura but cessationism is itself a post biblical doctrine
Not at all. How many prophets spoke between Malachi and John the Baptist? How many prophets have spoken since John of Patmos said "do not add or subtract from this book"? Cessationsism is a Biblical concept and is the correct doctrine. Otherwise you get Word of Faith and NAR and Jehovah's Witness.
@@RockandrollNegro there’s several prophets and servants of God who spoke between Malachi and John the Baptist. And there has been several who have spoken after John Of Patmos as well. By adding or subtracting to this book is literally what it is, to add to the book or take away from the book. You don’t add to the book if God still talks to his people about events to come. You don’t get Word of Faith and NAR and Jehovah’s Witness because people add or take away from the book. You get it all by people rejecting the teachings of the book, which is what you’re doing right now.
I'm on my second listen.. when Dr Storm makes the comment that of course in the early years of the church..100, 200 AD I'm guessing he's talking about, that of course spiritual gifts diminished because they didn't have the written word.. that makes no sense to me. God doesn't need his written word in my hand to teach me his truths. Yes I should turn to the written word because it's so available to me. I remember hearing a story of a man in the depths of africa, or Muslim country, can't remember exactly where but he received from the Lord the entire book of John and wrote it down not understanding what he was writing at the time. God can do what only God can do! About 36-37 minutes in.
Awesome! I thought there wasn't a show today. Love Sam Storms
Thank you for your work, Sam.
What is the biblical argument for the completion of Canon/Closure of Scripture from a Continuation perspective? I've only heard a Cessationistic perspective on this.
Thank God I'm neither in a Charismaniac church nor in a Cessationist church. We practice the gifts of the spirit, but in a proper and sober way.
I never thought about this before: Paul says, "You have people coming amongst you claiming to be apostles. If they can claim that; I can claim it more." (Paraphrased) Why wouldn't he have just said, "Now we all know that only James, John (13 altogether) can be apostles... No one had Bibles back then, but surely they could've memorized apostles' names, and had them written in letters. "If anyone comes among you claiming to be an apostle, remember!! These are the apostles names!"
A response to the statement/question about quality of miracles. I think you should comb the Bible for miracles, and then plot them over time. I think you will find that in the entire history of Israel and the Church age, miracles, even “quality” miracles were distinctly rare. Perhaps in the time of Jesus they were commonplace. Craig Keener was mentioned. Good. Miracles are alive and well through the power of the Spirit. At the Lord’s will and perfect timing.
Yup. This doesn’t negate the gifts of the Spirit today. There are periods of heightened miracles but even that doesn’t discount the gifts of the Spirit being in operation after the apostolic age. Also maybe one needs to broaden their scope beyond the West and see what is happening in other parts of the world.
LOL, sometimes my prayers are like toilet flushing. ‘Lord take all my ugliness and make it go away!’ 😂😅
Great video! to be fair would also love to hear the counter argument from the cessationist side. Would be great if you're able to invite a guest from the Ligonier Ministry.
They have done them. Look them up. They have a couple
@@dborisov23 that's right, they do have them but not as much as the continuationist and most of the videos were internal discussion. Hoping for a more formidable guest to explain the position of cessationism better.
@@DillonJan gotcha. Yea idk I just never understood the cessationist side ever. I think this is so much an American issues then the global church. As someone who grew up in Ukraine being a Christian was always associated with the supernatural. Witchcraft and so many occult practices are all over the world and practiced. the U.S western mind set is so set on “evidence and science” they miss so much of the supernatural view of the Bible. I don’t get how someone can read the Bible and go away like yea that was only for a period of time.
@@DillonJan we’ll for sure get more cessationists to defend it. We had Tom Schreiner twice and he is prob the leading scholar on this. We do more continuationism bc we openly contend for that position. But we always love a good cessationist chat. Thx for the thoughts
I believe the Tom Schreiner interviews covered the cessationist position well…..
Cessationism is nothing more then deisim
there is a brother from china who fasted 70 days in jail and did not die. He explained how he fasted more days than Jesus as 'greater works'. I thought wow i bet nobody wants to do that greater work.
So I have come to the position of a continuationist but I have no clue on how to look or find a good church that does it but biblically. My wife has had a terrible experience in the past and does not look forward at all to going to a church like this. Which is why I am perplexed on how to find a church that is balanced. We will be living In the Tulsa Ok area soon if that helps with an answer.
Prayer and visit church,and pray more, and don't let anyone rush you or pressure you to "join the church" .
Im struggling with this. I have recently come out Of NAR and Word of Faith. Im trying to unlearn the false and learn what is true. I get stuck on the verse that says we will due greater things then Jesus. We havent. How many people have you raised from the dead? How many demons have you cast out of people? How many people have you healed? Not as many as jesus thats for sure. If we have that ability then why are childrens hospitals not cleared out? Their has to be another interpretation of this verse.
The cessationist perspective is that we will do greater works quantitatively rather than qualitatively.
The continuationist perspective could appeal to the Apostles, Paul healed an entire island of people (Malta) and because the gifts have to be matured in and grown into as well as sought and taught, there is a large contingency within the church to steward such power and I believe the NAR and WoF have utterly failed in that regard, so have the cessationist.
P.S. scripture is clear that the gift of healing is not an on demand, human-willed action. It’s God’s sovereign choice through the means of man’s faith.
God bless
I believe in all the gifts and functions of the five file ministry
The existence of the Bible itself is supernatural, every page was supernaturally created.
We can all agree that cessationism is not affirmed in the bible (which doesn't necessarily make it false). The real issue is the quality and frequency problem discussed around 45:00 mins which was brushed aside fairly quickly. The response that nothing we have now is the same quality is insufficient and arguably false. There are some great teachers around. Surely the same and greater works include the same quality, and perhaps even greater quality. Without an adequate answer to this problem it's seems appropriate to exercise caution and to avoid trying to force the gifts into action, which as the video notes earlier has led to some horrible and shameful displays. Moreover, without an adequate answer to this question, cessationism remains on the table. In this regard, I'm sorry to say the video has failed in 'crushing cessationist arguments'.
I am not cessationists ,but the problem with me is the exercise of the spiritual gifts ; for example the gift of tongues as a second blessings. Teaching people how to speak in tongues instead of allowing the Spirit of God to distribute the gifts. I have been a place where people are taught , I received mine without anyone laying hands on me , concepts like soaking prayers etc are not healthy
All the gifts require practice and often time coaching to start. Just because they are gifts doesn't mean they don't need practice and growth in them :)
Teaching
Prophecy
Etc
I speak in tongues like you but because I over thought things and was proud it took a brother really helping me open my mouth and babble it out to start. This is more common than not in my experience.
the bible says that when the perfect comes we will know 'as we are known' we definitely do not know as we are known through the Bible. Also Paul said to keep in mind that HE was writing scripture--so we don't see him saying that people with spiritual gifts are all writing scripture. Not every prophet from the schools of prophecy in scripture had his words put down in the Bible. Very few actually.
I dont know about other people but I saw a teenager on a weelchair for months that was my husband neighbor stand up and walk after a woman of God pray for him. He is walking since than and he was preparing for surgery bc doctors could not do anything else for him. I witnessed a woman dying in hospital with uterine cancer in the last stages of it, get up and go after being prayed for and she stayed in my church for a while after that. So, i can't even for a moment say the gifts are not alive becouse i lived it and i am not pentecostal. I grew up in latin America in a Baptist church.
What about others who are envolved in false teaching? Do you make excuses for them? Do you not see the danger of cessationist false teaching? They are denying the very words of Jesus as truth.
This was so good, I’m definitely going to look for those books you mentioned
UPDATE: Sam's house of cards has fallen! You have now scrubbed so many videos of Storms regarding Bickle and the prophetic. Why not scrub this one??? Remnant Radio is now engaging in a huge cover up of its own. Don't you see the double standard?
It seems like scripture does say that some gifts will “cease,” and does not say that they will “continue.” …that the man of God might be “perfect,” ie thoroughly furnished.
This might be the best video debunking cessationism
That’s sad.
@@Jobthirteenfive135 Why? do you not like it?
I didn't find a better video on it. But there is not that much out there for the case of cessationism from a biblically focused stance.
Check out the video undervaluing pentecost by RC Sproul.
Are you serious? Sam used Bickle endlessly promoting his false prophetic claims and now Remnant Radio has scrubbed the videos. This coverup is material for the Roys report.
@@williamsebald3912 I'm not sure what this has to do with the stuff you mentioned. All I am looking for is Biblical arguments.
This conversation was very powerful and has affirmed much of what I have leaned to believe based on my studies.
Man that hit me i dont want to be asociated with charlatans but i cant say i haven't seen thise gift in operation or as a core teaching of the Bible
Welcome in advance to OKC and the surrounding area, Michael! (-- sincerely, a Norman-dweller)
Great episode
Desiring spiritual gifts is not a reason that many are weak/of little faith, sickly/spiritually sick, and sleep/perish but because we eat the flesh and blood of Christ not being worthy.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
I think the main reason for being a cessationist is the crap the charismatic’s pull and claim it’s God. I’m sick of it.
Prophecy=charismatic fortune telling. So glad im out of the charismatic movement, glad to be a cessationist.
Daaaaaaang! That's a thick book!
Not "give up the ghosts," but actually receive the ministry of Holy Spirit!
All glory to God for His Spirit. I have loved learning so much from solid biblical teachers, only to be grieved to hear them teach straight up to the power of Holy Spirit and back away and not encourage pressing into Him to be filled to walk not in the flesh. Yes Jesus freed us from the power of sin, but the Spirit empowers us to walk in that freedom. I can't do it in my own will or strength. If I could, I would just be a self-help hero. When I'm trying in my own strength, I always fail. Same great teachers have weakened my faith by taking authority away in the spirit relam. I won't need the authority to bind a demonic spirit and pray release of Holy Spirit ministry upon an individual or situation during the next phase of eschatology (the millennial reign) because then the Perfect will be reigning. I am sealed and He is indwelling, when I need refreshing from life, I long for that stirring up and filling after my complete surrender. I desire to press in more. I think Paul taught about the women being emotional as their response to the Spirit. He just inferred, husband's need to be better than Adam was. In my opinion!
Extremely goox!!!! Thank you!!!!😊
We're tongues and gift of healing and other miraculous gifts present before the time of the Messiah generally? I would argue no. There may have been isolated events of healing but no "gift". If there was no precedent for miraculous gifts before the Messianic and Apostolic period why would we expect it afterwards? I came into this discussion a cessationist and I am leaving with the same conviction.
Awesome video!
I know cessationists that think that God can heal, do various miracles of God as he wills. So are there different levels of cessation? There are just no modern Apostles however. The gifts are still active just not in the sense of extreme charismatic/prosperity folks.
Great question. Is the cessationist view a spectrum just as the Charismatic view is?
@@dekka213l
Absolutely!
Hey lets just end this once for all. Bring those with the gifts forward [ if you can find any of them ] and let then bring glory to God and heal a few who were born blind or deformed from birth.
@@dekka213l No we just don't ever see any of those who are supposed to have these gifts actually perform anything supernatural like Jesus or Peter Or Paul. Where are they---in hiding?
At about 41:30, the truth is told that we don't see the gifts operating like in the book of Acts and then suggest that we should be asking God why not? instead of concluding they are not for today. I agree 100% and realized this 40 years ago. Unfortunately, the entire rest of this video suggests that we do see them and they have been prolific throughout the Church age. Read the Didache and other writings of the early church fathers and you will quickly realize that the spiritual condition of the church today is woefully immature. Then thank God that the miraculous signs of the Spirit are equally diminished. If Annanias and Saphira fell over dead for their little lie, what would happen to the false miracles, signs, wonders, and tongues movement today if the Spirit was operating in the same power among us?
Many claim to have the gift of healing today. The claims of some prominent leaders have been tested and so far, none have passed as having the gift of healing. God answering prayer for healing by healing someone is not the gift of healing. If you know someone out there with the real gift of healing, have them on your show. Keep praying fervently for the sick and for the gift of healing. But please stop the false noise.
Sam did well with grace towards cessationists. The hosts are a little hostile towards cessationists. I'm on the fence and investigating both sides of the argument. The hosts seem a bit arrogant which is off putting towards the continuation argument.
Which Cultist Episode were you on Josh?
It premiers in October
@@TheRemnantRadio Sweet! Thank you. 😊
The title has the word “crushing,” and is much more provocative than the discussion.
Yeah we try and keep our conversation respectful and civil
My only disagreement is with the four daughters of Phillip being called prophetesses. It doesn't actually say that. They prophesied. You can prophesy and not be a prophet. The Bible tells us all to covet to prophesy in 1 Corinthians 14. I believe we can see the difference between prophesying as a gift in the church, to edify the church, and the ministry gift of the prophet in that very text of Acts 21. Agabus was actually called a prophet and we see his ministry a couple of times in the early church in Acts 11 and Acts 21. He is called a prophet. There is a difference between the ministry gift of prophet some may be called to, but not all are told to cove it or seek it. The gift of prophesy which is speaking to men to edification, exhortation and comfort we are all encouraged to seek earnestly after. That doesn't mean we're all called to be prophets. That may seem a little nit picky, but I do think it's an important distinction to avoid confusion. But still a great podcast. Thanks for sharing!
very good show
I'm not a Cessationist in the sense that I think gifts are not operational. However, that does not mean that they can be tapped upon command. I find it interesting that nobody wants to talk about snake handling Pentecostals. Many of them get sent to the hospital for major injuries including death. Guess what, I respect a spirit that shoots for the unambiguous. Anyone can say they cast out a devil. Maybe they did, maybe they did not. Anyone can prophecy to a large enough crowd and you will get a hit. Someone has to have had a bad day, had a death in the family, a new job, anxiety, or an unresolved issue. Psychics do it all the time. However, the snake handling Pentecostals want to really find out. Venom is unambiguous. Now people will say that is putting God to the test. Perhaps, but is asking for tongues putting God to the test? Either you can ask for a gift or you can't ask for a gift. I hear wild stories about preachers kicking down hospital doors and emptying out the emergency room. Okay, cool, now hold this Gaboon Viper.
I agree with Sam Storms, this topic is nothing to divide over. I also appreciate his pension for reading over study. He is steeped in scripture. That is good. Yet let me explain the perfect.
1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Hebrews 7:19
FOR THE LAW MADE NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a BETER HOPE DID; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
It's the revelation of Jesus Christ that is the perfect.
Hebrews 7:20-22
And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
So I wouldn't say it is the necessarily the 66 books per say, but the revelation that Paul received on the road to Damascus that can be accessed by scripture. When Jesus rose from the dead after finishing his work upon the cross, the PERFECT had already come.
Now Paul is talking about the Afterlife. None can deny. Yet this reminds me of when Martha was talking about the resurrection of the dead.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Martha was talking about a REAL event. She wasn't lying, nor was she mislead. It is going to happen, yet Jesus was saying even as that event is truly coming, it is has already arrived in his person.
Paul is talking about passing from this life into the next, but ALSO Jesus lives inside of us RIGHT NOW. We have the perfect now. Eternal life is not just a far off promise, it is occurring right now in the believer and will continue past life on this earth. So in a sense the perfect is a specific time and place after we die and in another sense it is a person in Jesus Christ available to us right now.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that CAME DOWN from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN heaven.
God sits outside of time. When we commune with him deeply, we can experience this if even for a moment.
What sam addresses at 7:22 was exactly what i was guilty of when asking myself why i was really cessationist
How much of Cessationism came out of the age of reason. Or if cessationism had not taken hold would the age of reason had risen?
Is the Canon closed?
At 30:30-34:50 you say that when God speaks a revelatory word it’s always inerrant and infallible.
I would agree in that it always accomplishes that for which God intended it.
But you went on to discuss and even implied that God speaks the same way he did to the authors of scripture to some in the church today. Why then would that not add to the canon of scripture? You can’t say, as you did, well men may subjectively interpret and apply it in different ways because you could use that same argument of the original authors and the written word. Help me here? I sit on the fence but lean towards continuationism but don’t see prophetic words of today or words of knowledge for today as something that meets the authority of scripture.
Does it have to be canonical? I’ve been preaching (manuscript guy here) and sensed the Lord give me a word that was not contemplated anywhere in my prep time but there it was to be spoken… and God used it mightily to accomplish his purpose. It was from the Spirit but not something that I would place on the level of the written Word of God!!
I love philosophical & existential inquiry I felt like I needed to kill it for the sake of the spirit❕
Is the argument in practice more about where you (individually and as a congregation) place emphasis on Christian character and obedience? Continuationists do tend to soft pedal on obedience and individual cooperation in sanctification, as a result there is little apparent discernment functioning...any and all spirits are deemed holy...whereas the cessationists being more focused on obedience and individual cooperation in sanctification (but not that much more perhaps) and ranking fear of the Lord more highly resist the temptation to label personal prophecy as such and instead use some other euphemism...terminology aside the similarities show in practice. Done well both sides are describing different sides of the same hill, problem is that it is rarely done well by the continuationists because the tares hog the mic or go unchallenged and clog up youtube with videos of their antics.