Post office and Mark Davies- the chasm between what was Known and what was accepted
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 13. 05. 2024
- or what was agreed. This is a curious performance that will be repeated, I suggest, by Paula Vennells but I am not sure it holds water as a defence.
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At the end Sir Wyn got so bored with his lies he just cut the questioning short. That tells you all you need to know about this fellow's testimony.
Yes Sir was visible tired of his lies
But, surely, the legal representatives of those victims should have been given the opportunity to question him further. Natural justice, eh?
@@sydneybracken1049 Hello Sydney, I watched the inquiry this morning, and Sir Wyn immediately apologised to the lawyers for blocking their questions đ
@@sydneybracken1049 Good point, why is there a limit put on the length of time anyone is subjected to questioning?
@@johnwainwright6205 Apologised, but did not correct this injustice. Mark Davies will not be called back to be cross-examined by core participants' counsel.
I have followed this horror for years and been glued to the inquiry. He definitely is a trickster. The old 'I was just doing my job' whilst acknowledging awfully late his so called regret. Just words. Shallow empty shells the lot of them.
Those poor postmasters and their families. , deliberately put through this from the outset as a business plan. No amount of schoolboy patter is going to put this right. It's got to be jail.
Two case studies emerge: 1. How not to buy IT. 2. How not to do PR. Oh, and 3. How to destroy a once-proud national institution.
As in life they take the money but not the responsibility.
Most of the top tier people pretending they wore blinkers to the problem.....they chose to just not push or ask the difficult questions, take the fat salary and bonus and make out all was well.
The whole top tier at the Post Office have group amnesia. If all else fails, deny deny deny. Even now they are still saying this nonsense, even after all thatâs happened and seaped out. Post officeâs idea of corporate governance and responsibility âNot me govâ
âI cannot recall â
How are so many liars allowed to get away with it ! Hope they all get done for perjury !!
Same here - but it's a forlorn hope - there are too many politicians involved.
It wasn't Mark Davies alone; ALL the senior management are to blame. The sooner Vennells is prosecuted and imprisoned, the better things will be, and her subordinates can be prosecuted and imprisoned.
be aware that vennels & co have already prepared their defence by taking out vast personal insurance cover against any claims, it was revealed & the paperwork seen, during a recent PO TV broadcast that the entire PO board & others have already insured themselves for ÂŁ60MILLION each, with an individual excess of ÂŁ25K. All paid for by the UK taxpayers, so THEY will lose very little.
Most bizarre session today.
Repeatedly, Mark Davies would say one thing and then Julian Blake would say
âLetâs turn to POL 00 xxxxâ, then read out something totally contradictory in writing. Time and time again Mark Davies seemed to be in a parallel universe. Even the Judge didnât want to bother with questions.
Surprised today that Wynn closed the day early without the core participants being able to have they questioning of this despicable character,
The other day Wynn said that the previous days proceedings had taken a toll on him. Given his age, that's not unexpected but his experience and still razor sharp mind are invaluable and that's the main thing.
Given that the crap that was spewed out today, I would have shut down at midday.
Think he already didn't accept much of what the witness was saying so will be relying on the documentary evidence instead, plus making a point to the representatives who have become a little more interested in grandstanding and trying to look tough, rather than furthering the inquiry's understanding, wasting his time.
Good morning Peter,
I have watched the inquiry with great interest as indeed everyone else has,..
On Sir Wyn closing down core participents questions, Sir Wyn has rightly shut them down because commonly their questions had already been asked/answered by the inquiry council,
Also, as Sir Wyn pointed out yesterday that core participents did not adhere to their allocated times and grossly overrun with questions previously put to them..
And, as Sir Wyn rightly pointed out, if core participents questions would only take a minute or two then those questions would not bring any value...
I do think, like the rest of us Sir Wyn is now sick of the constant "do not recall" BS..
â@@Drainy1986
Spot on Drainy đ
Been following this scam since 2011. They are required in court, if not. It is what is. Guilty. Thank you private eye.
Victim since 1997. CWU member since 1977. S Yorks police informed 1999.
@@kennethsimmons2029 the courage and strength you all have is amazing.you will all see your day with these con merchants, the world is watching. Take care my tough friend.
It was all about protecting the "brand image" and nothing else.
This guy is a lying creep , his statement praising the Post Office snr management, particularly the God fearing woman was sickening.
Were you upset that the core-participant lawyers were prevented from putting their questions to this witness?
I did not get that far I had heard enough.
Proof that corporations have no soul to be damned, and no body to be kicked.
A shame the lawyers werenât able to grill him at the end. As dry and tedious as this stuff can be itâs very therapeutic to hear the core participants lawyers call then out in plain language!
He was an ex-Government spin-doctor man brought into the Post Office from BBC to oil the wheels of bringing Fujitsu in to continue driving the gravy train that his life had been up until then.
Criminal.
Why are Post Office staff still trying to protect the brand? Wouldn't it be better if they came clean about what happened.
Just another player within the Post Office Organised Crime Group!
It is a pity Second Sight said there was no systemic defects. As they are not software experts, they should have said there were defects, which they could not assess as to the full implications.
I think they got most of the informtion from Mr Jenkins Fujitsu. Its like asking a mass murderer if he ever killed anybody. 2 or 3 bugs is a joke...it ran to hundreds.
The starting point was the knowledge that "Sub Postmasters have always stolen from the GPO". Horizon proved it. That the assumption was wrong and Horizon flawed was a change of mind set too far. Once in that hole they tried to dig their way out, never a good idea.
Well said sir. In a nut shell, staring us in the face, look but donât stare. One could go on but as you so plainly put it, people who in many cases were in positions, jobs if you like that they were plainly unsuited and unqualified for and paid generously for the minimum talent they had. The most gut wrenching part of this is their total disregard for the people whose lives they knowingly destroyed.
Well summer up!
"I don't recall" seems to be the mantra from witnesses.
When you include .....JIMMY SAVILLE ...ROLF HARRIS ....GARY GLITTER....JONATHAN KING ...and the rest, nobody wanted to know ....just like it is with the post office ...nobody wanted to know ....or could,nt care less what was happening to people ......
Was nice seeing Mr Blake finally lose his cool with him đ
I think the GB public also need to look at themselves and their collective role in this tragedy - wanting the service of their dreams at a ludicrous price. The government shrugged this responsibility by turning a public service into a business. The public keep voting for this failed neoliberal idealogy
Mail delivery has NEVER been a profitable activiity and the internet/technology made the activity near terminal.
In the 21st century as the volumes declined dramatically, trying to make a profit became a herculean task. The result is that the "management" it attracted had to be chancers and incompetents or a genius.
From the Inquiry we see that it is incompetents! Those who relied on third parties - consultants, lawyers, PR firms etc to cover themselves and their bad decisions. At their heart the "management" chose to blame their "dishonest employees" for their own failures. HORIZON confirmed their view and became their "spiritual god". They had to believe in it, to do otherwise would be to admit to their own shortcomings and failures.
Yes I agree totally.
Government policy in trying to privatise services that should not be privatised.
I am appalled at the ease that these people lie even under an oath to tell the truth. Spin? He outspun Tony of Arabia!
Tell me Prof, as an aside, what do you make of the Chair? I donât watch every day but he was 'not prepared' to work late on Friday and today (Tuesday) he dismissed 3 to 5 minutes of prepared questioning as not worth listening to (or words to that effect) towards the end of the session enabling him to wind up proceedings early - again. Given the importance of the inquiry to so many wronged individuals I am finding his attitude increasingly shabby and infuriatingly so. Am I alone in this? It is all quite dreadful and Wyn is only adding to this by deciding certain lines of investigation wonât be aired before heâs even heard them. In the interest of fairness and transparency all questions should be heard, surely?
To be honest he probably thought another 3-5 minutes of someone saying 'I don't recall that' wasn't going to add much to the greater human experience.
I agree there is something importantly cathartic allowing the witnesses to be put before core participants lawyers. The fact he has let some pass is an indication their day in court will come due to the obvious nature of their criminal and obstructionist actions.
Consider for a moment that Sir Wynn Williams has sat through 136 days of lies, obfuscation, delusional denials, occasional admissions of truth and faux regrets. He has observed the greased weasel that is Jarnail Singh at close quarters. he has remained remarkably calm, good humoured & self deprecating throughout. The issue with core participants is that, while quite entertaining, they make assertions that are routinely & tediously denied by the witnesses. I find the inquiry counsel more productively entertaining as they lay bare the arrogance & self delusion of such mediocrities as Mark Davies.
Don't underestimate Sir Wyn Williams, I have been watching the inquiry for some time now, and he misses nothing !!
He prevented the core perticipants questions for the specific reason he gave - their questions of only a couple of minutes duration..which as Sir Wyn rightly stated would extend beyond, if those questions were short in context then they would add no value..
Sir Wyn has a top class inquiry council led by KC Jason Beer, and Mr.Blake took no prisoners yesterday exposing everything, and Sir Wyn was very clever denying core participent questions..
Iff you are any good as a lawyer, solicitor, accountant you don't work for the POL they only seem to have les able managers on good public money who like to keep receiving it and not get embarrassed by poor decisions
It's all about the computer code. Blair was told when he signed the contract that there were errors in the code. Harriet Harman advised him not to sign, but he went ahead anyway. Even as he was signing, the software engineers were junking and rewriting the code, particularly that dealing with receipts and payments ( which 20 years previously would have been written on 3 pages of foolscap. And what happened to that all singing and dancing NHS computer system Blair signed for previously
A case of completely ignoring what was gradually known or easily deduced as the fact, in some cases many years ago, to just maintain the PR position. A position he pigheadedly promoted and it gave others the green light or encouragement to continue with the big lie
Surley the buck stops at the top? But also all who so much as had their own input into this scandal should be charged and locked up, have their overblown pensions taken away and any assets, accrued whilst with the post office, should be deemed as criminal gains. Take it all away, sell it and divide it between the victims of this scandal. Lets not forget any government monister, who dealt with the PO. (Monster, intended).
Prof Tim, they were "saying" they Emailed each other to remind each other to keep to "the same line" Mark Davies openly opposed the private eye
Nobody was saying, perhaps because it was the 'official' line? There was plenty of discussion about the 'anomalies' but they kept on prosecuting regardless. You have to wonder if, with all their ambiguous use of language the law will be able to hold anyone responsible for misscarriages of justice, to account. if the final report points at individuals, at all.
Group think doesnât even come close for these Post Office types.
It is almost beyond belief how so many if not all of the PO senior personal â canât recallâ whether they actually read emails that they were sent or were at least part of a chain / copied into. If true itâs small wonder that nobody knew what they obviously should- namely that every computer program ever has bug or whatever term is politically correct for errors in the program!
The management board were so busy âchanging the cultureâ etc that they were blind to what was actually going on in the business. So convinced of their own sainthood they didn't realise that they were actually part of the problem. Mr Beer has already detailed three flat out untruths which PV told MPs; it is up to competent management to find out the truth about their business, not just parrot the lies and stories being perpetrated by their staff. Ignorance is no defence, the question is why were they ignorant when the evidence was all there.
Spot on analysis professor. Iâve been trying to analyse the situation and I think that you have just hit the nail on the head.đđ
Well put; They clung to the idea there was no "Systemic" failure with systemic meaning that every transaction of a certain type will fail. This was their play on words time and time again. Their other play on words were the The Post Office cannot change transactions and kept quiet about Fujitsu being able to. These two lies are at the heart of this scandalous denial and seems to be a top down culture.
Had the backing of S Yorks police from 1999. Home sec Blunkett knew before that as he hosted event 1 in his constituency and Comms with Helen Jackson Ian McArtney and Stephen Byers....
Thank you for the like. Embarrassed counsel Ian Groom of Paradise Chambers and recused chairman R LL Williams could probably help the enquiry into the fit up and lock up culture against any dissenters on any issues . Achievable due to security personnel access all areas and incestuous police and post office relationships, Possibly independently flagged up now due to regularity of the post office recruiting of former police officers.
Corporate entity =- Government!!
I disagree, they are quite different beasts.
What I find hard to take is he has moved on to another company. On similar pay. They should all be made to pay back the millions in bonuses they gave them selves while at the post office.
The elephant in the room.
ÂŁ100,000,000, on lawyers, tells it's own story.
Trying to look 'forgetful 'idiots for lower sentences, if it even gets that far. It's obvious is it not, lives were ruined and they didn't care.
Nothing to see here! It was almost 'The Emperor's new clothes' in reverse. Individual moral and actual group turpitude.
What is a " twerp"? Or is it a " twit"?, i do know what the vulgar one means, the David Cameron one! đŽó §ó ąó łó Łó Žó żâïž
A 'twerp' is a pregnant goldfish, a 'twit' is someone who makes constant small talk, David Cameron is a 'twat' đ
Do you mean 'EXPERT' Ex = "has been" and (s)Pert = "Drip under pressure"..
Possibly a manifestation of the Abilene Paradox
Another example of the 'system' at work... nobody actually wants to face the truth or take accountability.
I didn't like Sir Wyn shutting down proceedings yesterday, just as the two core participants were about to ask questions.
He always worries about the time factor, especially where defense is concerned... measuring turns in minutes.
SPMs have waited years for this and he is stemming the flow with his time keeping.
If he is not physically and mentally up to it, maybe call in someone who is?
Interesting thought here about the difference between 'what was known and what was agreed' and I suspect that there are many more parallels (eg COVID, Space Shuttle Columbia) out there than we might first think. The question then becomes as to how a large organisation like the Post Office makes decisions/reaches agreements and how these are recorded (so that everyone knows). Is it too simplistic to say, that without any formal delegation, it all rests on the CEO's shoulders? Arguably, the one thing that seems to have been universally agreed within the Post Office was that if Horizon showed money to be missing then it was definitely missing - a fundamentally flawed assumption!
The entireâRobustâ lie would never have gotten off the ground without out Davies and Ismay, working a very professional and effective disinformation campaign for years. Intentionally, is âsayingâ in the negative.
Iâm still unsure what will/can happen to the scumbags at the end of this enquiry. Personally I think the powers to be will say that thereâs nothing to gain by giving out jail time to the management. Brushed under the carpet. I REALLY HOPE THE GOODIES ARE SETTING THE BADDIES UP FOR A REALLY BIG FALL.
Thanks for the synopsis.
and his friend Jack Straw got him the job - all crooks together
My understanding is that the software was not 'faulty' as you put it. The software didn't have 'bugs'. It was designed with a 'backdoor' so that staff at Horizon/Post Office Limited could get into postmaster's accounts and alter the balances. And this was not known to the postmasters - they weren't told about this.
The real culprits here are those individuals from Horizon/POL. The managers in court seem to all suffer from collective amnesia, they're just worthless individuals.
Hope his current employers were watching .
What a liability to any Company wow begins with how professional his team and board were what planet was he on a horrible Narcissistic Pathetic Human being, đźShame on Youđź
The difference from the Saville case is that those who 'knew' weren't just passive bystanders but were directly involved in the wrongdoing.
And are not these?
none so blind as they who wish not to see
My interest in this monumental miscarriage of justice has been further whetted by the reference by todayâs (15/5/24) witness, Chris Day. He struggled to explain that it was perfectly reasonable of the Post Office to threaten the forensic auditors, Second Sight, with legal sanction if they ignored their duty of confidentiality.
In todayâs proceedings, a reference was made to a Westminster Hall debate that held there on the 17th December 2014 in which the then, James Arbuthnot, laid out his case in which he charged the PO as duplicitous. He then âgave wayâ towards the end of his 30 minute speech to an unidentified female MP who requested that the PO be prevented from destroying evidence collected by Second Sight. In his reply, James Arbuthnot argued that the Minister responsible for the PO had assured him that Second Sight was independent of that organisation.
So, Professor, I would be interested to know how Chris Day able to get away with his threat to punish this contractor? (Iâm sorry, I donât know which branch of education you teach/taught.)
Itâs not a defence .. PR is one thing if you have put in the steps to correct a mistake , but to bankrupt people or leave them in prison
Itâs aiding and abetting the wrongful prosecutions. Acting in concert. He is the getaway driver in a robbery , just as guilty as the robber , ( In my opinion )
Iâm glad someone else picked up on how stupid he looked, the culture of spin yourself out of trouble , still 10 years on trying to do that to an inquiry .
Lie , deny.. bluff it out ..
Post Office employs Boris Johnson to help them recover ....................at last, someone with a brain!
Consistent transactions in a database are surprisingly difficult to assure.
In C.J. date's master work on the topic 'An introduction to Database systems'. he devotes hundreds of pages to the problem of concurrent changes to data. After all it's a seductively simple problem: How can one prevent Alice from accidentally corrupting Bob's edits?Simple to ask, but very, very difficult to achieve, almost impossible in a large system.
Did you know that the poorly coded POS database system that had proved to be unreliable to the extent that the DWP rejected it for computerising social security benefit psyments, was recycled for the Post Office Horizon system...? It seems that software companies are not immune to polishing poop, especially when their customer isn't the sharpest pencil in the box. Not so with banking computer systems, because the banks will hire the best independent data security teams to stress test their systems, so software companies don't pull the wool over banks, but government, especially when you've donated to party funds is a slam dunk it seems. Data integrity assurance is par for the course for POS systems for everyone else except the public sector. That's not to say things don't go wrong. They do, but it seems go happen much, much more in government. Millions of taxpayers money has been wasted or misused in paying for shoddy or unsuitable software. Perhaps all that proves is that the UK isn't immune from corruption and cronyism as we imagine.
Ah, and do not limit your understanding of the problem to IT!
Well done, you've hit the nail right on the head with this one he's like all the rest of them covering up even till the death outrageous....
To turn what is known or what is emerging into a consensus of opinion within any organisation is the call of leadership. There were several attempts to do this in the PO but each person in the leadership team lacked the courage to grasp what they knew to be the truth and to follow through with the consequences because of what it entailed. It's easy too admit you are wrong but its a measure of a person's character to admit you are wrong when it will ruin your career, irrepairably damage your finances and see you facing criminal charges.
Immigrant invaders story similar. Leaders WILL NOT see
I bet Mark was on the phone to Alice every night....
They still offer something for the privileged, should not the public system not be able to offer this also
perfidious Albion ! Englishmen built empire with forked tongue , trained at Eton.
Why didn't someone ask were there a counting errors and fraud before Horizon was installed!
I couldnât agree more with what you say. I was staggered by his demeanour and answerâs.
Arrogant was my first thought after less than 5 minutes.
You are correct they knew but wouldnât be clear about what they knew even to each other.
100% Sir. I believe it is also true within the NHS.. As we used to say.' THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND'.
It seems their jobs consisted of forcing postmasters to pay exorbitant amounts into the Postal system or putting them in prison. They clearly thought none of this would come to light in the public arena. They were brazen and reckless in their actions.
He who pays the piper
I'm tired of this protracted kicking of the can down the road. Bring charges. Stop faffing about. I wonder how quickly this would have made it to court were not politicians allegedly culpable too.
His witness statement delusional praise for vennells and Van den bogerde says it all
No regrets we were right all along
However this did come from the man who stated in response to the tragic death of
Martin griffiths
We need to hire a media lawyer
It made me want to vomit hearing Mark Davies' plaudits for the likes of Paula Vennells and Angela van den Bogerd being read out from his witness statement.
Huge salaries and superb pensions. Is that whats life's about?
We need to get rid of private schools just like the house of lords. We also need proporsanal representation. So your saying as the Tories have sold the family silver, we can't vote labour and just continue to vote for the party who do not represent 95%pf the population. Two wrongs don't make a right Tim
I'm very disappointed in Sir Wyn dismissing the core participants an opportunity because he was fatigued , why has Sir Wyn been appointed as judge in the inquiry if he's already retired and clearly is struggling to keep up with the timings of witnesses?
The hardest thing for me in thisâŠ. Children of the victims spat at and bullied, probably most nights going to bed hungrier than the children of hard working should⊠shabbier than the other kids at schoolđ„Č and all the while the guilty in all of this have hoards of wealth my mind cannot compute⊠inconceivable wages and fat cat bonusses too. And not one not one single person has stood up and genuinely confessed, apologised and accepted accountability⊠come on at least one of you stand up and shame the devil