Towards a shared mental model of the endurance training process
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- In November 2022, I gave a public lecture in the City of Oxford, UK, hosted by Oxford Brookes University. Besides a live audience, it was streamed. They also recorded it and have allowed me to upload my presentation and the Q&A after here on my CZcams channel. A big thanks to my host, Dr. Charlie Simpson, and the Department of Sport, Health Sciences and Social Work at Oxford Brookes University!
That rider 1 at 36:00 is a handsome fella.
35:05 Haha! Great to see backwards hat Dylan made it into your slides 🤣
Stephen PLEASE makes these uploads a podcast so I can take them on my run (via spotify)
This was a great listen. Thank you, I always learn from you. I fully agree with you about what you said on minute 27. In college I was fearful of letting down my track coach as I had gone from a big fish in a small rural pond to NCAA div 1 and the team was very competitive. I over trained, trained when sick, lifted more than I should have in a culture where suffering more than your peers was a sign of strength. All this lead to a pretty severe injury. I was so de-motivated that I quit the team even though that meant changing schools due to losing my athletic scholarship. It took 2 decades to return to sport and now I listen first to my body and what it wants to do. I love cycling so when I am feeling un-motivated, I KNOW its time to back off. I have been injury free (at least training induced injury) for the last 5 years and see no end to my small incremental gains or enjoyment of sport.
Training goldmine right there. Excellent!
Shout out to backwards hat Dylan 😁
Great video. I think many amateur athletes would gain a lot by watching this and using your observations to inform training decisions, myself included.
Talking about ventilatory frequency, I've personally noticed that during interval sessions (running), my ventilatory frequency increases during the session in a relatively predictable way. Whether on the treadmill or road I judge how long to run during each work period by my number of breaths. I do this because I don't want to constantly be looking at the treadmill or my Garmin, and my Garmin is a base model which doesn't make it easy to set up interval sessions. Mentally it also makes the workout easier for me, as I know that only need to get through 60 breaths in the next work period, for example.
If my interval session is 6x800m with 120 seconds rest between, I know my first work period will take 50-55 breaths. Based off that initial work period, I can expect that each subsequent set will generally take an additional 2-3 breaths. This faster breathing matches up with my perceived exertion. If I really focus on calming down my breath between work periods, I can sometimes slow down the increase in breaths per set, but I can't really keep is completely steady set to set.
As you mentioned, I sometime observe that peak heart rate does not increase between the later sets, but ventilatory frequency continues to climb almost always.
I'm currently reading "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman, and in the chapter "Two Selves" his discusses something that may relevant to the observation that athlete's RPE for longer intervals (4x16) tends to be lower than their RPE for shorter intervals (4x4). The "Peak-End Rule" says that a global retrospective rating of an experience tends to be well described by the average of the peak (in this case the most unpleasant part of a session) and the end. The "Duration Neglect Rule" says that the duration of an experience has no effect on the overall rating of an experience.
We might imagine that RPE might match up with the "area under the curve", that is the total amount of pain experienced during the session, but it might map better to average of the the peak and end, which in the case of intervals is probably the same point in time. The exertion magnitude is going to be higher in the shorter intervals, and maybe athlete's perception of effort is mostly based on that. This might be true when thinking about the session as a whole and each work period.
An interesting experiment to try might be to test interval sessions where the athlete stops abruptly at the completion of the last work session, vs. intervals sessions where there's a slightly easier work period at the end, or perhaps a significant cooldown time. The "Peak End Rule" and "Duration Neglect Rule" would predict that workout which is longer, but has some easier work at the end, would on the whole get a lower RPE score because RPE would be predicted to be the average of the moment of maximum RPE and the RPE at the end. Perhaps this provides a good reason to do some cooldown at the end of a workout. You may remember the session as being easier, making it less mentally difficult to do the session next time.
Such a cool presentation! Thank you! Re. 35:10, the "Backwards Hat Dylan" is a persona who gives bad cycling advice and generally always does the wrong thing...
Thanks for sharing.I train since 10+ years in cycling with power and different zones models. Nevertheless i had my eye opening experience after my lymphe cancer treatment. I tried to utilize a MOXY to adjust my percipation of what LIT means and this helped me a lot to have "stress overloading" under controll in this body stage. Also i realized that i was backward hat dylan because i wanted to get "most" out of my training and riding always to near the yellow bucket.
So finally 1yrs after the stemcell transplantation i am at the point as the "untrained" before and i account that mostly to really push away my trainings from the yellow bucket.
You and your channel were a great inspiration for me to make again an adaptation in my training! Thanks a lot to you, keep your good work going on!
All the best to you. Thank you for the kind words and the motivation to keep making these videos
Dr Seiler, as a 50 year old track cyclist who is becoming more and more interested in designing my own training plans, I found this video extremely helpful. This fall I decided to give polarized training a try based on initial information shared by Dylan Johnson. From that point, I started watching your videos. I’m hopeful that adherence to a polarized training plan during the winter months will set me up for performance gains next summer. The one area that I definitely need to get a better understanding of is the type of transition needed to prepare for the 2K IP. The time associated with this distance falls within the middle distance time zone that you showed earlier in your presentation. It would interesting to see best approaches for prepping for middle distance race season after a solid period of polarized training.
Love listening to Stepen, really motivates me to try and stay on track as a 44 year old cx/roadie still trying to race
Thank you for this! You have a gift of explaining complex things in easy to understand way.
I really appreciate how you continue to refine this topic in the pursuit of a shared mental model.
Thank you for sharing this lecture. I have followed quite a number of your presentations so far. I think this presentation is particularly successful. Lots of valuable insights and dependencies in a holistic view. Even as a recreational athlete, I can get a lot of benefit from it. I'll take a look at the EnDuRa project.
Thank you for sharing this, Stephen. I'm just a humble recreational runner like many but you've taught me so much and thanks to you I've been injury-free for years. Now I'm really looking forward to reading your findings on breathing frequency. Keep up the amazing work! :)
This is beyond gold. Thank you!
Great talk Stephen. I love how your ideas are evolving and becoming more detailed so that we can apply your methods.
Knowledge is power. Thank you so much for sharing
Thank you, this is fantastic information. I used to row as a kid (14 - 18), stopped due to “enjoying” my 20’s, now as a 28 year old I’m restarting my fitness journey and will be self coaching.
Im going to make sure to drop my ego and try spend more time working in the lower heart rate zone, as well as try be honest with myself and not over train. I’m looking forward to consistently building up my strength and not taking too many shortcuts!
Regarding the screenshot from Dylan Thomas at 35:06, it may be worth emphasising that the caricature image is of "backward hat Dylan" who is his fictional alter ego who generally does things wrong, i.e. it is not what Dylan would suggest or do.
Good stuff even for an old 65yr old geezer. Cheers from SVG 🇳🇴.
high load equals not high systemic stress. its all about duration vs intensity, load mangement, oxygen turnover, glycogen availability. really gold your content, thank you very much for sharing.
Thank you for sharing this very informative video and summary of the basic endurance training needs!
I am highly interested in your history about breathing, since I am using it as my primary tool for checking intensity ever since I started running.
I even established an own system based on my experiences and comparing data with heart rate measurements and RPE, in order to find what would give me the most basic way to control intensity while trail- and ultra running.
It is roughly based on your 3-zone model with 5/4 and 4/4 nose-breathing being the first "green" zone; 3/3 and 3/2 through the mouth the yellow threshold-like zone 2; and everything above with only very short breaths and a higher frequency like 2/2 or 2/1 (again through the mouth) equalling zone 3 effort.
Of course this is a very basic and minimalistic way of measuring intensity, but together with heart rate measuring and RPE, it seems to work perfectly for me and aligns quite well with my what HR etc. was saying would be my actual zone 1, 2 or 3.
Not only is this a great field guide for training, but it also ensures you stay in the right effort, since you notice immediately when things are off and your body is not fully recovered yet or even in a slightly overreached training state. You can notice easily when your usual paces with same breathing rate are dropping or you feel out of breath all the time.
Breathing mostly through my nose is not only what seems to be the healthiest for our bodies but is also very relaxing for the mind, since running with focussing on your breathing rhythm hast something very meditative and calming to it - leaving you feel very comfortable when running in zone 1, making you never struggle with low motivation or problems getting out the door on a daily basis to get the aerobic training in :)
I hope you find this interesting! Please let me know what you think about it!!
Again something to take into training. Thank You dr. Seiler
Excellent!! Thank you very much Stephen!
Good job CZcams Algo! Great video, thank you!
Great presentation! thank you!
Thanks for sharing!!
Thanks so much for these info you make available. I was wondering where you stood regarding rest weeks. Lots of training plan are built around a 3 week on/1 week off model but given you seem to promote a 14 day planning scheme, how would you distribute rest weeks throughout the season ? And then : how would you articulate progressive overloard principle with rest week distribution ? Anyway, thanks again for these gold mines of videos you share.
Fantastic content!📈🥇
backward hat Dylan Johnson (rider 1) is the opposite of what Dylan Johnson would do usually. So real life coach Dylan Johnson would do as rider 2. His videos are quite funny and very good.
Hey Dr. Seiler. Could you please do a video on how to train as a time crunched runner (4-6 hours per week)? :-)
Stephen i think one easy pace zone is oversimplified at least a second one is needed, and second i would introduce critical velocity to seperate between moderate to high intensity. That approach would bring new insights.
Interesting information about the vest, I've always been surprised that chest based HR monitors with their in-built elasticity don't have sensors in them to accurately measure breathing rate and volume based on this stretch.... I was just thinking the other week during my low intensity bike workouts that my RPE appeared to more closely match how I perceived my breathing to be rather than my HR (or power) so assumed that breathing rate/volume may be a good metric to evaluate for low intensity rides....
At lower intensity (and to a certain but much lesser extent) you have some control over your breathing rate. I can consciously choose to drop my shoulders, breathe more evenly and deeply/slowly at lower intensities in particular. Obviously this gets a lot more difficult at higher intensities but I think you'd get a lot of "noise" in lower intensity steady-state rides at least?
@@XX-is7ps it's not just breathing rate, it's rate with volume. You said it yourself, that you consciously slow your breathing but then breath deeper, so overall the amount of air per minute may be the same... a bit shallower but a bit faster or a bit slower but a bit deeper..?
Gutted to have missed this in person! I work at OBU but hadn't seen this was on. Next time...
I used to work at OBU - Mech Eng so nothing as interesting at this lecture !
I’ve learned so much from your videos, thank you so much! What is the name of the company that has the respiratory rate monitor you talked about in this video? Do they have a consumer product available yet?
I think the polarized methode is confusing for most normal people, because they dont train full time.
It would be much simpler to say: Train 1.5h/week with high intensity and whatever you train more would be low intensity.
Measuring breathing rate, like with your vest - it seems like that's something that could be measured accurately "enough" via a slight modification with current chest strap technology. By "enough," I mean comparably to how Polar (e.g.) measures running power from the wrist - good enough for everyday training use though not as accurate as lab/the vest. Any thoughts on that or insights into product developments? Doesn't PE (perhaps in combination with HR) essentially serve as a proxy for breathing rate?
Great presentation as always. No matter how many of them I watch I always find myself learning something new.
I have 1 question though - on the slide at 59:30 you have defined cycling tempo zone as Z1 in a 3 zone model. Tempo in usually defined as 76-90% FTP and is usually called a no-man's land because it's too hard to be easy but too easy to be hard. I always thought it would go to Z2 in a 3 zone model thus contributing to the yellow and not the green bucket. Does it go to the green or yellow bucket?
Different athletes/coaches will use different nomenclature (i.e. they may refer to high Z1 as Tempo whereas you might consider Tempo to be in Z2). I suspect those charts weren't created by Seiler.
Have you got any info on the breathing measurement device? Is it available to the public yet?
Hey. The intensity distribution of junior world champion cycliste is 90/10 is in relation to the number of sessions yet ?
Is ~80% consistent throughout the year or might that vary at different points of a training cycle? For example, during a base building period, might 90% be more appropriate (or at least OK). And, might 30% or 40% HI be appropriate as I get closer to a 10km race? Also, is a 3hr run in Z1 considered low or high intensity?
You mentioned what older (60yos) should do for general health. What about us "stupid" (your term) competitive athletes? How should our training differ from when we were in our 30s?
Welp, what do stupid athletes whos on their 30s tend to do? They do lots of hard workout right just to tell themselves that they are doing something right right stupid? Then keep hammering to the point of always angry kant, cant sleep properly and always stress yeh? Maybe do the opposite of that. 80% easy as in stupid easy and sprinkle hard session once in a blue moon. Be very facking patient because building aerobic capacity takes facking time stupid 😂
Is it the eccentric stress or weight bearing that makes running more stressful? Isn't there eccentric stress controlling the skate/kick in Nordic skiing or during the recovery phase of rowing?
I would think there's not nearly as much, running produces so much more when landing on each step
Hi Stephen - could you share the name of the device that measures respiratory rate?
Gas exchange analyser ?
This is the most interesting and boring talk at the same time. The content is fascinating and incredibly useful but the presentation... eh... could improve 😂 3rd time watching
I find his presentation style rather refreshing in the age of clickbait and oversensationalization