When Datto said “if you think it’s that easy I got a place for you to go and it’s linked in the description” I wasn’t quite sure what he meant and as soon as I saw a link to Bungie’s career page I nearly lost it 😂😂😂😂
Datto just ran game on you kids and you failed for it of course he's going to make excuses destiny is how he gets paid. The engine is 30 years old what 30 year old hardware man made any of you know that doesn't need replacing and this engine runs all the time no breaks.
As if bungie would listen to anyone that isn't "the old guard". Regardless of whether it's a good idea or bad idea. I've seen firsthand their work structure and it is reminiscent of the worst parts of valve and current blizzard with none of the good parts.
@@frauasylthe one I hate the most is the refusal to let the game run on Linux. They don't even need to actively support it, it already runs on proton, and their anticheat supports Linux, they just refuse to enable it.
@@monty58 Why do you think they "refuse to let it run", as if it can run but they don't want it to for no reason. Do you not think that such a small number of people play it on Linux that it just isn't worth the time. It would have to be a coordinated effort, and nobody up high is gonna say "yeah that seems like a reasonable use of time, to catar to the 0.1% of players who play on Linux"
@@lemon1797 because there is no "time" or "coordinated effort". The game already runs on Proton, they just have to not ban people who try to play it on proton. Battleye will do that for them. They already fully support Linux and Proton. If it was because it wasn't worth the effort, sure, that'd be fine. They could say that and most of us would begrudgingly accept it, but they haven't said anything. Instead they've said hey, if you try to play on the Steam Deck or through Proton, you'll get banned.
The car analogy was close but rather than take the engine out, it's like stripping off every single piece of the car until only the chassis remained, then trying to fit on parts from a completely different make and model
Totally agree, the a new engine would be like remapping all of destiny's very complex interactions into that new engine's configurations. Needless to say, insanely complex for no reason.
Its more like having an old ferrari (which you understand but has some issues), but then buying a new toyota and try to recreate the driving feel of that old ferrari in the toyota. Can you do it? maybe you can get close, but it would take a fuckton of work.
🤔 I feel the more accurate one would be getting a brand new shiny chassis and then taking everything else from the old car and somehow trying to make it fit on it and then being able to drive off with the thing (hopefully) not falling apart
As for the network people who cry about poor connection. Imagine the car being sent to one piece at a time, and you at (exaggerated) the speed of light are expected to build that car as fast as you're getting the parts. Not to mention how some parts may take longer then others due to something getting in the way somewhere along it's path. That's how packets work for Networking.
As someone who actually works in the tech industry i am glad you took even a small amount of time to actually learn yourself, you've done more than most and that even goes beyond just the game itself.
This is the last term i have before obtaining a degree in computer engineering. I have extensive knowledge in regards to rust, c++/c, and assembly, with experience in c#. So when I see "oh we need a new engine, spaghetti code kekw," it frustrates me because I know those complaining have never maintained legacy code or written oop code.
@@cooperbeggs6420 Learning languages dosent give you insights into this; software engineering design perhaps moreso. Also, working with legacy code is essential. Correct. However, do you really expect legacy code to still be not tested, constrained, wrapped, decorated... I mean, I hate to shit on what you've learnt, as good job getting a degree, however rust, c/c++, c#, and assembly are all a one dimensional viewpoint. They're built from the same thing. For example, when taking a more object based idiom (eg java) to this issue, ideas like proxies, adapters, etc come up. A more functional perspective (eg haskell) implies that it isn't holistic and functionality should be simplified. A more mathematical perspective (eg prolog) implies that there are inconsistencies that need to be verified. A hexagonal architecture is essentially what I'm talking about. software engineering design 101.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by the "Why don't we take Destiny 2 and push it to another engine" take. People online made it sound so easy that I started to second guess my very basic knowledge of what a game engine is and how it works. An engine is the backbone of how a game works like you can't just copy and paste a game into a new system.
I’m a full stack web dev. I’m curious to what your thoughts are about Bungie’s QA team or process given the amount of bugs being reported by end users?
somethingsomething. Reee how dare you not be able to make a engine in a week for free reee. Seriously the sheer amount of crunch and numbers and man hours would be atrocious. But I do hope management not the devs make some decisions to hope leviate some issues the last 3 weeks.
As someone who worked to an extent with unity, I once looked into UE4 and it was so completely different, that nothing you know carries over. That in mind, going from a custom engine to a standard one would not only require massive amounts of work, but also break the workflow of the development team. Also I feel like the video explains this problem quite well for non-programmers, Good Job.
Can't explain that to non developers tho lol, I've seen what it takes to swap engines lol, I played runescape alot and when they swapped from osrs to rs2 it wasn't possible to carry your old stuff over to the new game, the game was completely changed lol. All theese "internet developers" don't know much😂😂 glad to see someone who does
Seriously now, this is overall a good video and I'm happy to see it. A few comments: - You are not only right about game engines having old code in them because it works... You didn't go far enough back! There is still code from 1996's Quake in modern game engines such as Source. - if Bungie used a third party engine, such as Unreal, they wouldn't do it without having source code access, so your point about support being slower is not *entirely* accurate. The thing is, Bungie engineers would probably need support often because they would not be as familiar with the new engine code as they were with their proprietary one. Also, the "bike with a car engine" metaphor is pretty smart, because if Bungie makes too many modifications to a 3rd party engine it can end up with such a different tech that future updates from that engine's creators cannot be integrated easily - or even at all! Thus losing the advantages of having that 3rd party engine in the first place. - About servers and etc: 99% of the time, when we talk about engines in game development, we are talking about client-side tech ("front-end"). Things like rendering, input, audio, etc. Server code is usually a completely different tech, and usually coded in a different language than client code. So "server issues" are almost never related to game engines, apart from integration issues. - Great points about Destiny 3 as well. Players often fantasize about "new engines" and "new tech" when the reality is that the vast majority of code from previous tech gets reutilized, and is only replaced slowly over time as new techniques such as tesselation, ray tracing, etc get integrated, and pipeline/dev QoL improvements are done. Overall, great video, I'll start linking it to gamer friends who make ill-informed "game engine" complaints.
I do art for game engines, like Unreal. I watched a GDC talk on how Bungie renders PBR, a system that allows multiple overlapping textures to create reflections, illusion of depth etc. and thankfully it’s a similar system. But if anyone suggests implementing anything other than textures, and model files into a new engine, you’re insane. Skeletons, effects, lighting, oh my god, PHYSICS, you’re insane.
Also, game dev is cursed. A good number of comments start with 'wtf' and 'idk'. Having to go through and port 5 million+ lines of code, most of which already barely work, to another engine would likely be harder than translating a lost language.
It’s a sign of mastery to be able to simplify complex physical phenomena into lifelike, real-time effects in video games. Physics is hard, but simulating physics is harder.
To further Datto's point about migration complexity Satisfactory by Coffee Stain Studios is moving from UE4 to UE5. They talk a lot about what small modifications to the engine they have made, and how many people and how long they were working on the upgrade. While the team investigating the feasibility was small, it is worth keeping in mind how limited their customizations were. This all in mind, it has been months, even a year since they started looking into the upgrade to when they announced that they were going to do it. And that is UE4 to UE5, with a near ideal candidate for uplift. Moving a game like D2 to a completely different engine would be worlds apart more complicated. I am a software dev, not for gaming but for another industry. I am working on an application that replaces a legacy application used by all of our clients. This application is nowhere near the complexity of D2, yet has taken us YEARS to get to the point where it can replace the legacy app for the majority of our clients. Every time I see the community complain about the speed of Bungie disabling an exploit vs the speed of patching a bug that is hurting them it kills me. Even from the outside, I know that the two are no where near the same level of complexity, and I can't even always gauge how long it will take me to fix a bug in my own code because I'll think it's something simple but it ends up being something complex and dependent on some bit of legacy code that is used all over the place, and only in this one context does it break. And that's when I have access to the code! I don't have access to the D2 code, and couldn't imagine what layers I would need to unravel to fix any given bug because I can only guess at the interactions that might be causing it. I get that it sucks when something that benefits us gets disabled quickly, yet something that hurts us takes time. But that happens often because the things that do benefit us like the shard exploit CAN be disabled by toggling a switch. Notice that the Vorpal bug has been around for a long time, that benefits us and it's still not patched, nor is it disabled because it can't be disabled without disabling every weapon in the game that has the trait. The same thing goes for things that hurt us, they usually don't take the form of something that can be easily switched off. I get that it sucks, I get that there is this desire to balance good bugs with bad bugs, and I do think that Bungie could do a bit better about addressing timelines to resolution or internal priorities about what is getting fixed, but it must be understood that easy "fixes" will almost always get prioritized over more complex ones simply because they are simple
The thing is, nobody is expecting Bungie to ship a new engine tomorrow. Nobody has said it's a quick easy effort. Datto's entire video is arguing against things nobody is asking for.
@@st0nedpenguin datto’s point is that making a new engine or porting D2 to one would take an insane amount of resources. his analogy about putting a car engine into a motorcycle was not as apt as it could have been. its more like doing that while moving at 60 miles per hour. in order to make changes on that scale, bungie would have to stop all development on destiny 2, which they have already said they aren’t going to do. its a non-starter
@@st0nedpenguin You don’t spend much time on Reddit, do you. Datto’s entire argument is refuting what MOST keyboard warriors on Reddit are absolutely asking for.
Yep, I used to build websites. I know what you're saying. They think they're wasting resources patching exploits instead of fixing bugs but I'm sure they're different departments at Bungie.
@@lostsurferjames5 I think it’s the communities you are involved in, I left the Destiny subreddits cause they were ruining the game for me, I just stick with cat subreddits and stuff about space.
I'm a programmer working in AAA game engines. Most of this was about right, but a few small things to correct: Some game engines give you full access to their engine source code (Unreal Engine). This means that if you had a blocking issue, you don't have to wait on Epic to release a fix, you can just allocate some engineering time to modify the engine to do what you need it to do. This is a huge selling point for Unreal Engine. Unity is a company which makes 100% of its revenue from licensing their engine to game devs, so if the engine source was publicly available, it would affect their bottom line. So, they guard that super closely. When I worked at Facebook, even they couldn't get engine code access even by offering truckloads of cash. If you wanted to switch your game to a different engine, you pretty much have to rebuild it from the ground up. You also have to learn the ins and outs of that new engine. That can be months of ramp up time. You still have the texture, models, animations, sound & music, and all of the raw "art" assets you can reuse, but you'll certainly have to redo all the shaders, particle systems, game logic, user interfaces, etc. You're basically building a new game. The business case working for years to reproduce the same content, which already exists, and you won't make new sales off of... is a really bad business case. Not to mention, QA would need to thoroughly retest absolutely everything again. Is the bug an engine incompatibility issue or a dev implementation issue? If you switch engines, build a new game and expect 6-12 months of ramp up time for your team of cross disciplinary devs to become proficient -- then expect the 3-5 year dev cycle.
I can’t understand why even though my Wifi is stable, I still face the connecting server issue from Destiny 2. Does other people also having the same issue even now ? Is my Wifi problem or Bungie poor server problems ? By the way, my WiFi is 2.4ghz
I’m sure a lot of developers are very happy that this video exists. I don’t really know how game engines work but I am in the IT field and everything you said about users and their expectations vs reality is very relatable
@Mirasolov Klose Wrong, you paid for access to a product and signed (or checkmarked that you read and understood) a giant pile of legality that means that they can take the game down for any reason at any time and you can sit there or go outside and enjoy the free time you have been gifted. You are entitled to NOTHING so stfu and touch grass :)
@@mirasolovklose3888 Complaining about a product you paid for that isn’t working properly is valid. But offering unsolicited advise when you don’t have the matching accreditation is plain arrogance.
Před rokem+26
Posting my reply to another video about “Destiny 3” here (I’m a software engineer). Three things about the need for a Destiny 3: 1) Some software engineers love rewrites. If a system is complex enough, they say a rewrite is the solution (rewrite here is “Destiny 3”). But rewrites are typically a non-solution; they may start off great because you are focusing on the core functionality, but once you start addressing the edge cases you end up finding they need the same exceptions you had and thought were just bad code. 2) The only recent issues that look like a systemic problem are the error codes, and those are likely to be caused by a recent change, not an engine issue. 3) New games typically have many more bugs than older games. Destiny 2’s list of known issues is minuscule compared to most games. It’s guaranteed Destiny in a new engine would have many more problems than it has now.
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Agreed. I think the only time a new engine is justified is when the current engine can't support certain features, or if in order to add a new feature, it would take a ton of work and be quite unstable, etc. (not worth it). Otherwise, the time spent working on the current engine means that it will be the smoother and more stable option.
Right. Cause more money going into this franchise while the Crucible getting laggier is perfectly fine. Or farming for hours for the same two unusable perks is not bad coding either. But hey, simping for Datto is your favorite thing to Datto.
@@Krohn117 No one should feel bad for wanting a better experience, his point was that simply demanding a new game engine is not going to make that happen.
Because they've ignored all the previous problems now it's too late. Yes it is entirely on bungie, they cant blame new content because the content is recycled and reskinned. If they would have actually fixed the game instead of saying throw more money at us, problems woulda been fixed.
I love the fact that datto is in a place where he can make money off of telling people he's tired of them looking to him to validate their thoughts about destiny.
Destiny 2 is the only game that removes content I already paid for and then occasionally sells it back to me again in some 'new' warped form. The hoops that fans and content creators jump through to justify that is the worst part about this community.
To add my own piece: Coming from somebody who works with and manages physics engines on the daily, replacing even just the physics system alone in any form of simulation wouldn't just mean changing around a few parameters, it would mean COMPLETELY re-programming a huge amount of the kinematic pieces in the game, unless somehow said new engine almost perfectly matches their old one. Luckily, in my industry (Computational Chemistry), there's a lot of agreement about how physics should be handled, so most engines are fairly similar. Even still, trying to set up or boot a simulation in a new engine is horrendous, and can take hours to port even something simple. If you take one look at even engines as common as Unreal vs. Unity, they're WILDLY different, way more so than the systems that I deal with. Even just rotating an object is a completely different process in each one. It's really difficult to explain in words just how difficult porting something from one system of physics to another is - It's like trying to translate an entire book into an entirely different language - some words match up nicely, some are a bit iffy and need a lot of fine tuning, and a lot of them straight up do not have counterparts in this new system and need to be rebuilt from square one.
With the beyond light engine upgrade and scripting changes . There is definitely a link on why we will likely not get older missions in the exotic rotation.
@@MangoKai I think so too. Even with large overhauls of how the engine works Bungie could just recreate these old stages in the new system. And a lot of the work in terms of audio, textures, models, map layout and planning would mostly be done already in that regard. If anything they'll likely have them be last on their list of returning stage s because of this.
@@MangoKai actually, there is and Datto knows it. He can’t say that because he’ll break his NDA, but when Aztecross broke it accidentally, it precisely on this topic.
@@MangoKai it’s not impossible (since they’d have to made from the ground up almost) but take for example outbreak. remember that one spot in duality where ur sliding down? Yeah in there’s one In outbreak I’m pretty sure it designed to kill so with the recent physics changes they’d probably have to revamp a shocking amount due to general changes from old code to gameplay mechanics that would not fit currently.
I'm a software engineer and your explanation is pretty good. I work in a support role and the thought of my programs being migrated to another BRAND NEW environment is something that is anxiety inducing
The way I see it, if Bungie is planning on running the game with new content beyond Lightfall and it's seasons, then it'll be a worthwhile investment. But I think a better investment would just make a new Destiny sequel with a completely new engine.
@@urazz7739 it will ONLY be a worthwhile investment if 1) destiny 3 2) people are willing to start anew, no progress carryover 3) destiny 3 would somehow manage to reach the success of destiny 2 (HIGH risk)
@@dragonstorm7861 you dont need to. anything he says will be rode by morons who dont understand this position anyways. youre all just sheep, he himself says he doesnt have a clue. so why should anyone take input from an idiot. the game is dead, big changes are required for the future otherwise they wont have a pedestal to yell from.
In other countries what they did with the DCV is illegal. My Japanese friend told me that the Asian market versions of Destiny 2 have playable seperate client versions of the vaulted content, or something like it, to comply with legal standards. Bungie is simply not providing us with the same because they are not legally required to do so here. That's corporations and money for you.
As a software engineer, Datto is exactly right. Things that seem simple to users are actually insanely complex under the hood. As a result, what seems like simple asks are actually harder than launching yourself to the moon on a pogo stick.
No one is claiming that the necessary fixes are easy, but jut ignoring them or constantly delaying engine improvement because "they're hard" makes absolutely no sense...
@@Random-th7wm wanna opt unity's game engine source code and fix the collision issue they have with fast speeds? It takes time to locate an issue and fix the bugs causing it, make sure the fix doesn't cause new bugs or weird glitches in the code else where.
Who tf said they were easy? That's not the point but if your going to make a game, then you are responsible for the fixes of bugs or x y z. If you totally ignore them in general then it's not because it's hard to fix, it's because you can't be bothered or it's not important enough for you to care, until it is.
@@Random-th7wm If you think they are ignoring the problems, then you are wrong. It takes indefinite time, plus one thing can lead to other problems with ease. And if you think they are lazy, then go work for them and fix it. If you don't know how a program functions, then you should keep your mouth shut.
The big difference between the size of a game like destiny and most mmo, has alot to do with it being an FPS. There's a lot more effort put into the detail of the asset meshes and textures in an FPS, because you can aim at the environment, and crouch next to objects, in both cases getting extremely close to the environment. Which means you need greater resolution textures and higher poly count particularly if there's some semblance of photo realism. MMO, using warcraft as an easy example. Has the camera pulled back. So they use low poly assets, with the detail of objects painted on instead of actual detail. They also can hide more flaws, because of how far back the camera is set.
Finally, someone in this debate who actually looks to be informed on the subject that is more complex than the majority of the Destiny community can comprehend
@@GioGioPietromica425 buddy I've worked in software engineering for 18 years so I GUARANTEE I know more about game development than you do. But do I go around lecturing people about how little they truly understand? No, because I'm not an expert either. Educate yourself before you go spouting nonsene on the internet.
@@jamess.2491 Well how am I supposed to know that, buddy? Maybe if you didn’t sound like such a loser and actually explained why this person was wrong I’d take you more seriously but low key I don’t give a shit how much you know, because if you’re still gonna act like a dick after gaining all that experience, it wasn’t worth much, and I don’t really think you are either 🤷♀️
Thank God someone like Datto put out a video on this. Being a Software Developer myself, I was losing my mind with all the stupid "Update Engine" complainants from people that know nothing about software development. Thank you, Elitist Datto. We knew you could not die that easily. Love these videos.
when bungie themselves have pointed the finger towards their engine multiples times its natural most people in the community are also going to follow suit...
Do you think Bungie has a separate team dedicated to legacy code updates? What would be the issue of remaining on Tiger but having a long term project of a small team rebuilding the same game on the same engine even if the project takes a few years?
@@Azazel-uv3sx not a software dev, but i'd imagine a large part of it would be that the game and engine is constantly getting updated alongside it. so the task is just neverending, and would likely get outpaced by the main dev team if the new engine people are a 'small team' remember all those things we lost inbetween the taken king and d2? imagine that on a significantly larger scale edit: also not to mention, when that new engine eventually *does* get implemented, you have to teach everyone that wasn't on the small team how the heck you're supposed to do anything on it. which would take a bit
@@Azazel-uv3sx Because a small team would take decades. Actually a small team would never finish because the game gets updated constantly. How is a small team supposed to efficiently port current D2 in a reasonable time while keeping up with game updates made by a considerably bigger team? That‘s why the engine swap is so unfeasible - They would have to slow down or completely stop content releases OR D3/New Engine Destiny will lack a lot of content.
This was the most satisfying Datto teardown of idiots ive seen in a long time. Agreed on everything you said, its more productive to discuss figuring out server issues since this has been more of the core issue
I remember when they shed light on the sheer complexity of fixing the heavy ammo synth issues from D1, and that's one tiny bit of the game compared to doing a whole engine
I can't remember where I saw it but I remember Bungie said that the physics issues in the game are well known but would basically require a complete engine overhaul to fix. The physics that enabled titan skating, eager edge trolling, and randomly launch you into a wall and kill you are also the physics that affect how sparrows move, how you jump and run, how GLs and grenades arc their projectiles, how enemy AI jumps around are traverses the map, how jump pads work, and a million other things. Yes the physics cause a bunch of bullshit deaths and have doomed my warlock to hundreds of unavoidable deaths, but I would take literal years of non-stop work to even create a new physics engine which would undoubtedly feel and play different than the one we've been accustomed to for 9 years now.
@@Bipolar.Baddie Which is why I found it confusing Bungie would make a new kind of jump pad on Root of Nightmares. Why not just use Cabal jump pads for this? The major enemy on this raid is Cabal with pyramid tech so they could've easily just changed their appearance of the launchers to look more like pyramid tech if they felt they needed to and leaving it to look like Cabal tech wouldn't have been out of place either.
As someone who took video game developnent class in highschool I cannot fathom myself working with game engine, servers, maintenance, connection stabilty, co-op gameplay, user interface, player models, environment details, software stability, characters, story, and etc. which there is a lot more that I haven't mentioned and having to use differents codes that you aren't used to and having it to work completely, and having a legacy code is a lifesaver to many developers like its pretty much the holy grail
As a person who works in an IT environment. I agree with 99 percent of what you said. One point I would like to discuss.... Testing. I know it's a complex game, but it feels like nothing is tested. Like at all. And then things come back as glitches in new activities that use old mechanics.... If you copy pasta old mechanics, you should probably predict the old glitch will come back too. Edit: just to be clear, I work all the way from initial testing to production for servers. So, I'm not just some cable guy lol. Second edit: to clarify, complex bugs, I don't have a problem with, it's the ones that literally require them to play an encounter 5 times at most to find. See RoN second encounter. That shit failed so many times and it was a core mechanic. Those glitches I have a problem with.
@@-Alpeter where did I say testing should take 4 minutes anywhere in my comment? I'm saying they need to hire more testers as the game becomes more complex, I would assume in an exponential fashion (you know cause you can combine things) and yes it will take longer. But you should never stack an unfinished product on top of an unfinished product. The testing and approval process for something as simple as a server for a website takes at least a couple weeks per procedure. At a minimum.
Very good video. BUT towards the end all I could focus on was whether Datto was going to save the GM with zero revives and being the only fire team member left!
Datto's ability to be so concise and articulate on such a boring conversational issue will always impress me. Easily one of the best informative/instructional/analytical CZcamsrs of all time.
I liked your reference to "Tech Debt" which is a buzz phrase that most people outside of the developer world don't actually know the meaning of. Replacing an entire Game Engine wont erase the tech debt built up over the many years destiny has been out, if anything it will just replace it with more stupid problems that take time/energy/and most importantly to a company MONEY to fix. Thanks for your hot (but accurate) takes on this. Love your content (past and present) 👍
The best solution IMO is we need Season Health, like Rainbow 6's operation health. Cut down one season and give the devs some time to patch some huge technical debts.
Tech debt (shortcuts) always catches up and usually has a crippling cost to recover. I've been a Network and Security Engineer for 24 years and have seen this countless times. I can almost guarantee the people who do the actual work wanted to do things right but were overruled by short sighted management. For the game to be in such a bad state this probably happens a lot.
Yep. That’s why I hope they actually end things with final shape and not try to pull an Attack on Titan Final final final season final part. Time to move on, hopefully Bungie gives us closure.
So to return to Datto's car analogy, it would be like putting off replacing the brake pads for whatever reason, let's say short on money, and wait too long until the brakes fail.
@@alekiller2 datto is many things but he's no simp for Bungie lmao idk how you take it as simping but my word do you have some self reflection to go through
@@nazarus1283 skimping maybe not. But it's a standard bad faith take of community feedback. Example: Framing the engine complaints as people asking for Bungie to just "copy and paste" destiny into a new engine is just terribly bad faith.
On a side note that has to do with the footage. On strand titan i noticed you looking around to hit your allies with the tangle for woven mail. You can throw the tangle at them and since you have the aspect equipped for it, the woven mail will pulse twice over the span of 3 seconds i think. So long as you make it into that pulse you'll still pick up woven mail too. It's pretty nice to be able to chuck a tangle at allies ahead of you and pick up the pulsing tangle's woven mail along the way. Lastly, thank you for showing the clutch solo GM completion all the way through. I was on the edge of my seat thinking you were not gonna show the end since it was just background footage lol.
When John Romero's team was developing Daikatana, they built it in the Quake engine, but early in development Quake 2 was revealed. They decided to build the game in Quake 1's engine and port it over to the Q2 engine when it became available to license. Romero was a longtime game developer at that point, he worked alongside Carmack to make Wolf 3D, Doom, and Quake 1; he was confident that the game would be pushed back just a few months, from a Christmas release to March '98. When the new engine arrived, it turned out to be a much bigger task than he thought. Daikatana was eventually released in May 2000.
A more egregious example would Duke Nukem Forever, which was originally meant to release by december of 1998 but ended up releasing in 2011 because its own producer also was a 'WOW NEWER ENGINE, MORE BETTER!' kinda guy and he demanded these engine changes at such a fast rate that a lot of potentially fun and well made content and countless hours of impressive work were thrown to the garbage bin (see the DNF 2001 build leak).
This is a decent example but they say there was a lot of slacking off involved too. Like, a LOT. Like Romero would sometimes not come in to work for days or come in and spend days just playing online pvp while ya-hooing, ye-ha-ing and generally goofing around. So they say.
I did some coding classes in college for fun, and I can only IMAGINE the LINES of code for everything. We only used C++ and that was hard to make some simple things. I can only imagine proof reading Destiny’s code to fix things. Props to the devs putting up with all the hate. You can only do so much with the resources you have and have to sometimes pick the lesser of two evils. You got this Bungo.
@@bannedmann4469 I want to see you do it, do you even know HOW MANY lines of Code Destiny 2 has? 5.1 Million! And that was a few years ago You wanna find a tiny bug or even a huge interconnected Problem in that? I thought so. They work tirelessly on fixing the game but small changes take a huge effort in such a big game when it comes to inner workings. It's not just "a single line change" it does not work like that.
thats just pure cringe. they dont code like in schools. they used templates and other stuff they have separate people to check the code for them. stop defeding bungie for doing fuck all lmao
Weirdos who've never coded a damn thing in their lives try not to armchair game dev challenge: Impossible. The bad code you're harping on about is responsible for (well, fucking everything in the game, but more specifically) the world renowned gun play and weapon feel. But sure, the whole game code is bad, throw it all out and do it again for Destiny 3... Oh, but please continue doing D2 in the meantime, oh and still make new content too, oh and stop reusing assets for new content ya lazy devs, oh and make sure I still have all my cosmetics I paid for.
I'm so happy you made this video, as someone who's entire degree covers the technical side of games development it's very difficult to explain this in a way that people can comprehend if they haven't done it themselves at any point, and understandably so since the industry isn't for everybody. The amount of time it takes to do even small features, making sure they work, making sure they work with other systems, bug fixing, updating when they want to develop new features, rebuilding when necessary, it's a lot.
Im more than happy that the devs are trying their hardest to make the servers better and just the game overall. Look at some other multiplayer games where publishers drop the game then just dip
The game Rain World was ported into Unity in mid development, which took them about 2 years to do. Destiny, which is basically 100x as big would take an insane amount of time and effort to port to a different engine
Do you think when car manufacturers make a new car they reinvent the engine from scratch every time? Also you can literally lift an engine from a classic Porche 911 and drop it into a classic Beetle. Not the best analogy.
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK DATTO!!! As a comp sci student, 100% agree with literally everything here. Particularly the "Devs won't change code that isn't broken" part. Most non devs wouldn't understand that. Would love to see those same people go and get a cs degree with me and see just how difficult it is.
Unironically, it was precisely this kind of talk that made me go into game dev and programming in the first place. If everyone kept saying 'just swap engines' and Bungie apparently wasn't doing this really simple thing, then there had to be an answer as to why. Which was what kickstarted this whole thing in the first place. Your 45 minute conversation with someone about game engines was how I started too, and then proceeded to spend the next couple of years learning these engines and learning how to code. I went to go figure out why, and loved every moment of it too. Turns out, this shit is just insanely complicated.
Stuff like this is why, when I hear someone complain about Bungie fixing specific bugs before others or not fixing the server issues, my first question is, "Have you ever coded anything in your life?".
I honestly felt the exact same way as you and it’s the reason why I went into software development. I now have a greatly newfound respect for game developers and give them a break whenever a bug or glitch comes out or even a server issue here and there.
Ok, so I have a question, if you know. Obviously a Destiny 3 wouldn’t get a new engine, but wouldn’t there still be a lot of new development and an ability to fix or re-write a lot of the code that’s causing issues? It’s a lot easier to make new things than try to work on all that legacy code from what I’ve been told?
As a game dev student, I really appreciate you doing this. It frustrates me so much how people are never satisfied with the things we create to make them happy.
I don't know how yall do it. I once had aspirations to make video games and began teaching myself C++, then I began noticing how ignorant, infuriating and insatiable video game consumers tend to be, more so than consumers of other entertainment media, and it killed my desire.
@@CouchCit Hell, the consumers are the least of the problems for the poor bastards who get into game design. Good luck finding a company to work for that isn't pure shit.
Make em happy? It's for profit, are you that soft in the head? Or should I tell you to cut the crap. Also people are satisfied with good products and services. Maybe you should consider the alternative that Destiny has rarely been that. Fuckin hell, God forbid a paying customer has complaints. Even Datto went out of his way to say the complaints were valid, in this very video.
In the same way people are annoyed about a shitty meal prepped by a reckless chef, who charges full price... We get annoyed about shitty deployments thrown out by reckless devs/Bungie leadership. It's not charity work. Devs may make games for people to love, but they're charging money that we put work in to earn.
@@jonathanwilliams3713 People make the choice to buy it tho. At this time, if anyone is not satisfied with the way the product is delivered (and it has been the same way for years), do not buy it or assume your purchase. On the other hand, bungie should be more transparent about the state of the game for sure.
I have to thank you for making this vid Datto. I've been playing casually since the D1 alpha(might have been a beta, can't remember), and my software engineering career began about 2~ish years prior. FAR and away, the *single *most *frustrating part of being along for the ride during that time(for me), has been the community. By which I really mean, it's borderline unbelievable depths of ignorance regarding the difficulty, complexity, and fluidity of software development in general, and aaaaall the more so with online game programming. It's MASSIVELY complex, and it has been killing me for years hearing technically-ignorant content creators rail against 'the devs'. The devs this, the devs that, why can't the devs EVERYTHING, the devs SHOULD or SHOULDN'T HAVE blah blah blah. It's sooo frustrating. . It's also made significantly worse by content creators on youtube and elsewhere just leaning into the narrative that any part of this process is simple, or that 'the devs' seem to have sole control of the narrative/mechanic direction / powers of creation over the whole system(of systems). For years, it's been lack of understanding, on top of ignorance, on top of unreasonable complaining. I mean dang people, it's difficult even for professionals & experts, because the libraries and frameworks they employ are also changing underneath them, as are even the deployment targets hosting tech. In a serious way, I feel that laaaaaaaarge swaths of our community genuinely need to go out and 'touch grass'. While out there, they can crack open a book on memory management in c++. Or perhaps take a systems design course. Or learn about backend software architectures. Or delve into network security. Or what a race-condition is. Or how CDNs work. Or how you implement internationalization. Or pessimistic concurrency. Or how to carry off live update strategies like blue/green deployments. Or data replication. Or event(s) processing. Or how complicated rotation in 3D space actually can be, and why quaternions are evil/the devils plaything/ what gimbal-locking is. Or any of a million other sub-disciplines that all have to work in concert to bring what has by and large been an amazing, and difficult to deliver experience for all these years. Honestly some of my peers in the community(even my own friends I play with regularly) make me think perhaps the Witness -should- win. Lol or at least randomly in-game finger-slice a few of their outrageous attitudes down to a more manageable size. The Traveller must have been massively concussed when it gave some of y'all the light.
This. So many people lack a framework for what respect looks like. Respect for game devs and what their challenges look like. Respect for police and how difficult/dangerous their job can be. Respect for doctors and scientists when they tell us to take a vaccine. It’s mind blowing how little people understand and how much they pretend to know.
stop relating to the devs, and stop covering for them, you're not working for them and they should get over it. Excuses excuses, deliver a better product. This reads like "never do anything or expect anything because it's actually hard :((((("
This is true for basically all game communities, honestly. Even outside of games, people think programmers are wizards that you can tell them "thing broke. fix plz" and they'll be able to do it.
As I'm finishing my sophmore year in college studying software engineering it kinda feels nice to recognize about half of the things you mentioned. Been studying the different types of software architectures, and been taking classes over computer systems engineering and coding close to the hardware interface with assembly. Stuff is cool. I dont mean to say I have any idea of the problems with D2 but it feels good to start to get familiar with knowledge that is relevant to the conversation.
"Just change engine" worked ~really~ well for Duke Nukem: Forever. Just imagine doing the same with something that has an infinitely bigger scope, online components, steady content updates, and more.
15:40 Ooh, game dev student here, I know this one! CoD keeps the file size big to make people not want to uninstall it because re-installing it would be a pain, and therefore they play the game more and are more likely to spend money on it. Basically the same reason Las Vegas casinos are deliberately laid out unintuitively with no windows so you can't tell how much time has passed and are more likely to get lost and spend money
Datto, you brought up a point @ 17:27 about the engine update with Beyond Light messing with older content. I want to emphasize to others that the engine update *itself* wasn't the issue, it was the content that was dependent on bits and pieces that the previous version of Tiger Engine had. One of the big changes that was mentioned in TWABs before Beyond Light dropped was that the mission scripting model. That being updated to Physics Host instead of Mission Host caused a huge chunk of old content being borked due to the scripting system being changed. So essentially Bungie would have to rebuild 3-years of content, they rebuild some of it, but a lot of it would have to be put into the vault. The big reason why Bungie hasn't worked on that content is due in part to internal reasons with a lot of Bungie devs being shifted around from Destiny to other unannounced projects..
Changing a game’s engine is a difficult and time consuming endeavor, and server issues have little or nothing to do with an engine, but the reason the community ever started the new engine debate is because bungee has been blaming the outdated and clunky engine for years for game wide problems.
Notably, you can substitute new engine for dedicated servers and end up with a very similar argument, because Tom allow the dedicated servers for pvp that people want it would require a whole rewrite of the network architecture which would be a massive endeavor.
A long time ago I remember Frank O’Connor saying something like “The problem with sequels is that they need to be exactly the same, but infinitely better”.
This is the biggest W I've seen this week. As someone who has been in software dev for 30 years in everything from AAA game companies, and FAANGs to fortune 500s and startups. The community has every right to be frustrated, but the community has shown that they think they are experts in a domain that they clearly aren't. Do I know what Bungie should do? No and neither does anyone who hasn't seen the code base.
yeah, i've just graduated in iT, and even with my understanding ( albeit small, but vastly bigger than half of reddit or so it seems ) i can understand that those problems have nothing to do with doing a switch in engine, which would be such a killer move ... for the game that is Seeing people complain about engine and "spaghetti code" like they know the world about it is hella infuriating
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Imo it seemed like most things I saw posted people were more upset at Bungie for patching things like Rahools shard emporium in 10 hours but still have things that are basic functions that don’t work. Just my opinion not trying to throw hate or speak for everyone. It was more the timely matter of the fix rather than just pure hate. And I think most content creators are just fishing for content and a good clickbait title.
Here’s something I actually do feel qualified to tell Bungie: I would be ok with changes coming out at a slower rate to allow for more QA. I think it is “as easy” as that in terms of avoiding rushed patches that break the game for a week and then are themselves patched up.
As someone in the industry, I want your video framed and put on my wall. Might buy a cheap tablet. Download the video. Put it on subtitle loop. Fuckin' A+ dude.
I’ve watched every video you’ve ever made about Destiny, many of them multiple times, and this might be my favorite. Any reasonable, thoughtful player should be positively overwhelmed when they consider the amount of work that goes into designing and programming this game, and the constant suggestion that every issue, especially technical ones, are due to incompetence is exhausting, and often clogs up or derails the discourse in the few places where players can actually gather to talk about this game. Thank you for making this video, Datto.
The more I grow as a professional software dev, the more fascinated I am at the technical side of video games and the more amazed I am that any are stable at all.
I feel it would be the opposite of what you said. It's like stripping the car of everything (the games content) and trying to jigsaw it onto a smaller, stronger, faster chassis/frame (the game engine) It MIGHT fit, but it would look garbage, probably fall apart, and will DEFINITELY COST YOU A LOT IN REPAIRS, which is a huge thing that people don't think about
"You are not the problem solver. You are the problem reporter." Said EVERY IT support person ever. When someone says something is wrong, we want to hear what is happening. Not what you think the problem is. This is a fantastic talk. Thank you for saying the things that needed to be said.
I'm sorry Datto, but your defense for the DCV is just ridiculous. Saying that its ok for Bungie to remove content that WE PAID for simply because it causes structural issues within the game is not a great excuse, especially when we aren't even getting a significant quantity nor quality of content to make up for it and the technical issues are still persisting. Those structural issues are on Bungie as they very clearly have not optimized the game properly because there is absolutely no reason that the game should be as large as it is based on the size of content that is provided to us players. Especially when you compare Destiny to other games that provide ten times the amount of content of Destiny, have similar level of graphical fidelity, similarly sized loot pools, etc. yet are far far smaller than Destiny downloads. The fact that Destiny is still having the technical issues despite removing so much content clearly demonstrates that Destiny has structural problems that needs to be addressed and that removing content was just a bandage on a bullet wound. Trying to excuse that difference in optimization between Destiny and other games by saying it's because other games are built different is just ridiculous as that just means Bungie wasn't competent enough to properly build Destiny for the type of game it's supposed to be. The reason why Bungie didn't just bring back all of the vaulted content after the backlash was because Bungie knew it would be better for themselves to simply remove content rather than fix the structural issues with the game. Bungie knows that they can abuse the Destiny community and a majority of them will keep coming back and since the effort/resources required to fix Destiny's issues are significant, Bungie probably figured it'd be better to bandage the issue rather than fully deal with it. This is more than likely imo as it's pretty obvious that Destiny is not a top priority for Bungie as their deal with Sony and the numerous other games they reportedly have in development are clearly their top priority right now, not Destiny. Not to mention, they can also repackage and reship that content back to us later as "new" content instead of making actually new content and get brownie points from a portion of the community. Bungie is making us pay for their incompetence by removing content that we paid for simply because they know they can make us suffer instead of putting forward the resources to properly maintain Destiny and trying to excuse that predatory action is just insane to me.
wayothefro in agreement from me too (depends). ''-You Don't Know Anythi-' - '-But what I do know is that the response of "just get a new engine," is not the brilliant take people think it is. While the stability issues and the server issues since Lightfall have been annoying, this problem is so much more complex-'. 'yes', 'yEs', keep these and the franchise's current Day status quo coming, Typical bungo-Licking-Only type B-defenders/Excuses out there. etc etc. [Boredly yawns]' - from my earlier, similar review Today.
I hope you see this Datto, I mentioned this in the stream yesterday but here is a bit of a longer format on what I said. I don’t know if this was from the beginning your intention when you started your Destiny journey but over the years I have found that despite what state the game is in. Wether it was D1 or D2 you have ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY been the voice of reason. You have never pulled punches when it came to critiquing the game and stating where it needed improvements. ALSO you always brought it home with realistic truths on how great the game IS and how far it’s come and will go. In the same moment offering solutions and ideas on how to improve key elements. Your delivery has been unmatched. I’ve started to notice more and more creators and social media personalities jump on the band wagon of bashing the game. (I think for likes, views, and the engagement. Sadly it’s good for busniess)* Offering solutions that many have no idea how to implement. Everyone seems to think it’s a QUICK FIX and Bungie has to get it right on the first try. They’re human! They’re people with everyday lives, family’s, children and loved ones. They’re doing what they can. So I hope people have a bit of humility in all of this. Yelling at Bungie every moment of every day isn’t getting your messages across. THEY KNOW AND HEAR YOU. Now let them make the necessary changes and MOVE ON. To all the arm chair developers and key board warriors. I leave you with this. Please get off of Twitter and any other social media site and go touch grass. Then happily come back load up Destiny 2 and enjoy as a solo player or with your friends. Because we all know that despite our gripes with the game. It holds a special spot in all of our hearts. An old familiar friend that we can’t be long without. I hope Bungie does the best they can. I have faith in them. We all should…we stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. Not a war with each other. Eyes up guardian.
The engine argument is stupid. But I do believe Destiny 3 has to happen because of two factors: 1, Bungie already said no more sunsetting expansions. And yet, they're gonna keep adding expansions to Destiny 2? I just can't imagine that being possible. 2, I believe after Final Shape we are getting Age of Triumphs 2. They're gonna bring back Red War, the old planets, and the 5 sunsetted Raids all back. Instead of seasons, they're gonna slowly reintroduce those. They've already technically been doing that by multitasking, with bringing back the Farm, Mars, and soon Titan. Age of Triumph 2, slowly being released, will occupy Destiny players until Destiny 3 comes out.
One of the most true things that I have ever heard a professor say while working on my computer science degree, especially in regards to making a new game or new engine is this: “New doesn’t mean better, it just means new”
Well unreal engine 5 especially 5.2 is better lmao. Way easier for devs to create games than other engines out there due to massive support from epic and new technical tools like lumen, in editor animation, real time rendering etc etc. Unreal engine 5 is so amazing
@@ultragoldcoin8780 And yet, a huge portion of games are written in a language (C++) that first broke ground in 1985. A language so effective at this that when Minecraft went and used Java as its language of choice, one that's a scant ten years younger than C++ and was already 14 years old on Minecraft's release in 2009, it's still made fun of for using an objectively shittier language for games. New isn't always better.
@@ultragoldcoin8780 "way easier" unity is easier, unreal is just fancier "especially 5.2" how the hell 5.2 is easier to develop when compared to 5.0? "lumen" how does this ease things as well? It's another layer of complexity to make easier graphics.
@@yol_n lumen is a fully dynamic global illumination and reflections system, that can be turned on in unreal engine allowing Devs to not so much time creating there own lighting system, let alone an advanced lighting system such as lumen. I said it's easier for Devs to create games with unreal engine 5 because Epic made the engine with that in mind for ease of use and time reduction. All the tools in new updates like unreal engine 5 like nanite, vsm, Automated PSO caching for DX12, cleaner modern ui for easier application and use of in game development, better animation and rigging enchantments etc etc. Unreal engine 5 is made for devs to not have to spend so much time making games, plus they have AI in the engine to make assets.
@@ultragoldcoin8780 you can’t definitively say it’s easier unless you actually have knowledge of Destiny 2’s code base and how it would transfer over the UE5. I would say you’re correct if we’re talking about a completely new game that doesn’t have to flawlessly transfer everything over, but in the case of a pre existing live service game where the goal is to have it up as much as possible, that just wouldn’t work. It would take years of effort to learn the new engine and get back to where they currently are, and even then it would likely come at the cost of changes and content updates to Destiny 2 under the current engine. Things would eventually get back to normal, but how long would that take? Likely years given how veteran developers wouldn’t necessarily have the same level of transferable experience with a new engine and the amount of content that bungie is constantly pumping out. It just isn’t feasible to simply swap engines at this point. Even if they were to make a Destiny 3 and completely start over, it would take a very long time while D2 is left on life support. And for anyone who thinks it’s on life support now, it can and will absolutely get worse if they move resources to a new game or effectively new game with a port of D2 to a new engine
Great vid holy shit. I will say I think we are just at a current point where frustration has superseded communication. We’ve been here we’ve done that and we’re all still here.
I think it'd be kinda fun if one day we get a Destiny game where we can play different races like Fallen or Cabal since they seem to be pushing this whole idea of all the races working together
They might have to actually do the D3 new engine thing to pull that off, which is why I think if they do it they'll have to do it after their main narrative arc ends so they can give themselves the time it'll take to develop that without having to also maintain a live-service game on top
great video overall, my only gripe is with, "if you found a bug or problem that needs to be fixed, don't give them ideas of how to fix them" what a terrible take. That is unbelievably unproductive and incentivizes a community that does nothing but complain and no drive to be better. if you work in an office and every day you get 20 emails saying "The microwave sucks" how are you gonna know what needs to be fixed? is it broken and we need a new one? is it too small and we need a bigger one? does the door not shut and we need to tighten a screw? does it not get your food hot and we need to turn up the power? These are productive suggestions we need to know in order to fix these things in a timely and informed manner.
I feel like you watched the video but also didn’t watch the video… know what I’m saying? Datto literally just said they don’t need our solutions. That’s all. We definitely should report when things are busted and we should definitely try to provide as much information as we can about what is broken and what is happening but we shouldn’t be literally trying to tell the developers how to do their jobs.
@@benharris7992 he said and quote “if you find a bug, record it, write it down, submit a report on bungies website, try to reproduce it. Step 3. DONT SUGGEST FIXES” this incentivizes a community that has nothing productive or helpful to help the game grow. Without a community that shares what they want, bungie will do whatever they “think” the community wants. Which has and will never go over well, we need to be transparent of our expectations and our desires for the game to become something we want to play.
I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons for the DVC was changes to the lighting system which required assets to be updated. They probably solved the problem by removing the rarely played content and updating the assets for the widely used assets. This probably allowed the engine to not have to support both lighting models simultaneously. Probably one of the biggest source of technical debt is supporting multiple ways of doing things in order to support legacy customers/assets/deployments/platforms.
I suspect they've been trying to strip out their older light map driven approach to lighting updating it with either a more recent one or implementing some kind of systemic GI. I'm convinced the lighting changes in BL included some kind of dynamic GI but I don't know enough about the topic to say. Additionally I'm certain the game used asset duplication a ton to help with disk loading on last gen at the cost of space and bungie has been slowly pruning it out resulting in smaller file size and worse last gen performance
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Sometimes, you want to do whatever it takes to help people understand and give guidance where needed, and sometimes you want to listen to the schadenfreude of literally hundreds and thousands of gamers being told how wrong they are. As much as people want to get onto Bungie for what they do, it's not like the average person is able to do anything to *help* or *fix* the problems that the company has to deal with, between their own game falling behind and needing updates to the millions of fans yelling at them to "fix their game". Just let them do what they do. If someone is pissed off that their game is breaking, then stop playing. Go do literally anything else. Don't buy the "touch grass" emote when you can just go outside your house right now to do that. To the people who are kind enough to understand and are patient to wait, I appreciate you all. You guys deserve a lot of good your way. To the people who can't wait another moment and want to yell at either me or Bungie for any reason, close your screen and take a break. I do want you all to keep your sanity, genuinely. A game is a game after all, and there's always another one out there. 👍 I can wait for Destiny 2 to get fixed (even if they have to cancel season 21 to do it), but I can't wait for the heated gamers to calm down and be patient. (Edit:) I know I'm going to have at least one commenter yell at me or throw shade just to get their anger out, and I don't care. If you're going to get mad, throw it here and see if I care. If you instead want to reasonably put your thoughts down, I'm happy to read them. Please, please, please do take care of yourselves.
Datto a month and a half ago: "Elitist Datto is dead, don't expect him to be coming back for a while" Datto these last couple videos: Honestly? The Take-No-Shits Give-No-Fucks Datto in these videos is a joy to watch. It's cathartic to hear the stupid crap that people spew be put on blast with the reality of the situation.
he needs to protect his interests, but I also believe he's apathetic to the complaints and gripes he has because with bingle, if it ever gets fixed, it's a surprise. and constantly nagging on this game drags you down, so people let go of that shit
As somebody that's been a game designer for over a decade and a half, the phrase "you can't game design your way out of server maintenance" is true for basically every aspect of the game. Yes, part of the job is understanding your technical limitations and designing around them, but sometimes (especially in long-term projects) new issues you have no way of knowing of show up, and there is no realistic way to "design around" them. Or something that has been off your desk and in developers' hands for weeks or MONTHS suddenly has a problem that you have no solution for (because you're a designer, not a coder, why would you know about some issue with the physics engine causing clipping when venus is in the fourth house). Situations where you have to send something mid-development (that hasn't even shipped, mind you) BACK to the designer to design around some previously-unknown deep technical limitation is likely going to result in all work on that aspect of the game to be reset to zero, or damn near close to it. On a busy content pipeline for a AAA live service game, that is outright not happening. Your on-the-ground developers are going to have to figure out what judgement call they can make, maybe consult with the designer for quick advice, and keep things moving as best as they can. Re: engine argument, Datto is absolutely correct. Changing the engine does not guarantee anything. Y'know what might help? Cutting off consoles and making D2 dedicated PC-only. That is a BIG "might", too. I don't think even that would guarantee significant improvement. And of course that's also a non-starter because cutting off consoles means cutting off players, and more importantly, revenue streams. You just don't do that. That's dumb and I'm dumb for even including it in this post.
You're a braver person than I. I was going to mention compatibility and stability issues with consoles as severe detriments Bungie dedicates significant amounts of resources towards solving when they could probably just settle into the PC-only market. I have more than a few friends who have left the game because their focus seems too split between other platforms. Look at how much trouble they went through to get the game working on Stadia only for it to be shut down only two years after Destiny's launch on it.
@@Cross31415 obviously impact since there is a lot of console players. But the game could be better if drop consoles and focused on only one plataform
I wouldn't cut off console as its most of the player base. As a console player I can tell you that players are not going to buy a gaming pc for 1 game, they'll simply move on. I would however drop old gen support (Xbox 1 and ps4) as having those still in the picture limits how much change bungo can make to the game.
The issue itself isn’t the current slew of bugs, servers and stability. It’s the fact that Bungie have been blaming their engine for the past 10 years.
I wonder if anyone who complains about technical issues on twitter has ever actually gone through with making a report on bungies website 😮 i know i sure as hell haven’t
This has been the most entertaining video coming from someone who went to school for game design. I have these debates with friends all the time and I try to tell them I went to school, studies game design and how the whole thing works. Also big praise about how players have 0 agency outside of reporting. I hate when people who have no idea what it's like to work at, with or around the engine let alone working in a game company in general and thinking they have an iron proof solution.
At about 17:45 where you ask if we’d rather have old content or new content; with what happened with lightfall, I’d say I honestly want my old content back. And the reason people want a destiny 3 is because the game was at capacity and they took away tons of our shit that we paid for. You say “oh well what about the people that paid micro transactions for d2 but what about the people that paid for the CONTENT?
That would also include that as well since I can bet alot of people would want their armor and weapons that they have on their character and vault which includes all of the weapons from release to now, along with everything everyone bought which may look easy but is probably not and won't be here in a long ass time
People flippantly saying "just make a new engine" don't realize that to software developers that sounds like "just move the skyscraper to a new foundation". It's fundamentally not possible to swap, because everything else is built off that foundation - the only thing you can do is rebuild. It's not quite as slow as building from scratch, since you can copy some designs and salvage some of the materials, but it's still costly to reassemble, and anything that was based on the specific geometry of the old foundation will need to be redesigned. Moreover, any previous safety assessment and testing is invalidated and will need to be redone, which will result in a whole new laundry list of issues to fix before the new building is even as good as the old one was. The kicker to this insane leap of logic, of course, is that the reason they're asking for a new skyscraper foundation is because of some power outages due to faulty wiring, lack of paper in the office printer due to a supply issue, and insufficient toilets on the 9th floor - things that are not even remotely affected by the foundation. That's how stupid you sound if you talk shit about software engineering when you don't know anything.
So here's the deal as a software dev myself. The issue isn't the servers or the engine. It's the mentality of the lead developers and the marketing teams. Since Destiny's inception there had been a cycle of developing fixes and then selling those fixes. In every season or expansion drop bungie breaks something or changes something that doesn't need to change. Then when everyone complains they then market the fixes for the next season. There are a ton of examples over the past 8 years. Vault space, LFG, sunsetting, reducing PVP size, armor 2.0. Destiny isn't a game that is meant to be good. It's meant to just good enough to have you wanting more. And that's how they suckered players for years into buying to season and expansions that are Half done
Datto's point of "Devs probably won't change code that isn't broken" is more true in programming then many people will understand.
well the old saying never change a running system
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
Not using the old code just because "its old" leads to infintely more issues then an average Joe will realize.
i think people dont realize just how infuriating making new code can be past like 1st year uni arrays lol
@@JizzSock_ let me guess you probably think changing a code takes like 2 minutes.
When Datto said “if you think it’s that easy I got a place for you to go and it’s linked in the description” I wasn’t quite sure what he meant and as soon as I saw a link to Bungie’s career page I nearly lost it 😂😂😂😂
Lol same. Take that, people who think they’re the best programmers in the world!
Literally crying from laughter right now 😂
Same I was curious so I just had to look
Who the fuck would want to work there? You seen how they treat their employees?
Datto just ran game on you kids and you failed for it of course he's going to make excuses destiny is how he gets paid. The engine is 30 years old what 30 year old hardware man made any of you know that doesn't need replacing and this engine runs all the time no breaks.
I think the most important takeaway from this video is that Datto could fit this whole rant in a single run of the Mars Battleground Nightfall 💀
Ayo deadass and I wish I had teammates that were capable to run this 😊
it were 2 runs, cut together, tho.
@Christopher Calhoun It's really not hard I'd be happy to run it with you.
I wish people would just shoot ads lmao
@@donutmaster0 guys who enjoy doing ad clear because they can't do the other parts of PvE content:
"Is for me?" 🥺
👉 👈
Thanks to the link in the description, I now work at Bungie and can put my degree in "I know better" to use and help the developers learn what's what.
Good, we need someone like you
As if bungie would listen to anyone that isn't "the old guard". Regardless of whether it's a good idea or bad idea. I've seen firsthand their work structure and it is reminiscent of the worst parts of valve and current blizzard with none of the good parts.
@@frauasylthe one I hate the most is the refusal to let the game run on Linux.
They don't even need to actively support it, it already runs on proton, and their anticheat supports Linux, they just refuse to enable it.
@@monty58 Why do you think they "refuse to let it run", as if it can run but they don't want it to for no reason. Do you not think that such a small number of people play it on Linux that it just isn't worth the time. It would have to be a coordinated effort, and nobody up high is gonna say "yeah that seems like a reasonable use of time, to catar to the 0.1% of players who play on Linux"
@@lemon1797 because there is no "time" or "coordinated effort".
The game already runs on Proton, they just have to not ban people who try to play it on proton.
Battleye will do that for them. They already fully support Linux and Proton.
If it was because it wasn't worth the effort, sure, that'd be fine. They could say that and most of us would begrudgingly accept it, but they haven't said anything.
Instead they've said hey, if you try to play on the Steam Deck or through Proton, you'll get banned.
The car analogy was close but rather than take the engine out, it's like stripping off every single piece of the car until only the chassis remained, then trying to fit on parts from a completely different make and model
Totally agree, the a new engine would be like remapping all of destiny's very complex interactions into that new engine's configurations. Needless to say, insanely complex for no reason.
This is the correct analogy.
Its more like having an old ferrari (which you understand but has some issues), but then buying a new toyota and try to recreate the driving feel of that old ferrari in the toyota.
Can you do it? maybe you can get close, but it would take a fuckton of work.
🤔 I feel the more accurate one would be getting a brand new shiny chassis and then taking everything else from the old car and somehow trying to make it fit on it and then being able to drive off with the thing (hopefully) not falling apart
As for the network people who cry about poor connection.
Imagine the car being sent to one piece at a time, and you at (exaggerated) the speed of light are expected to build that car as fast as you're getting the parts. Not to mention how some parts may take longer then others due to something getting in the way somewhere along it's path.
That's how packets work for Networking.
As someone who actually works in the tech industry i am glad you took even a small amount of time to actually learn yourself, you've done more than most and that even goes beyond just the game itself.
LOL, you work in some shitty tent in Brazil coding crap, you have no idea what is working on a game studio.
This is the last term i have before obtaining a degree in computer engineering. I have extensive knowledge in regards to rust, c++/c, and assembly, with experience in c#. So when I see "oh we need a new engine, spaghetti code kekw," it frustrates me because I know those complaining have never maintained legacy code or written oop code.
And he's still clueless.
@@cooperbeggs6420 Learning languages dosent give you insights into this; software engineering design perhaps moreso.
Also, working with legacy code is essential. Correct. However, do you really expect legacy code to still be not tested, constrained, wrapped, decorated...
I mean, I hate to shit on what you've learnt, as good job getting a degree, however rust, c/c++, c#, and assembly are all a one dimensional viewpoint. They're built from the same thing. For example, when taking a more object based idiom (eg java) to this issue, ideas like proxies, adapters, etc come up.
A more functional perspective (eg haskell) implies that it isn't holistic and functionality should be simplified.
A more mathematical perspective (eg prolog) implies that there are inconsistencies that need to be verified.
A hexagonal architecture is essentially what I'm talking about. software engineering design 101.
You don’t know anything about game engines though….datto said so.
PLEASE make more of these, I think it added a year onto my lifespan.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by the "Why don't we take Destiny 2 and push it to another engine" take. People online made it sound so easy that I started to second guess my very basic knowledge of what a game engine is and how it works. An engine is the backbone of how a game works like you can't just copy and paste a game into a new system.
They talk about what'd essentially be a full translation, complete with localization of phrases, as if it was just transliteration
this was honestly extremely therapeutic to hear as someone in engineering who also has friends who work in game design, thank you for this
I got several friends going into game design and this was great to hear
you don't even need to be a software engineer or a game designer for it to be therapeutic listening to datto shit on stupid people
@@gabrielnakamura9114 its incredible the amount of people who think they want to choose game development as a career. XD
guy who works with engines here! this was like scratching an itch i cannot reach. thank you datto for educating the masses
profile pic related
I’m a full stack web dev. I’m curious to what your thoughts are about Bungie’s QA team or process given the amount of bugs being reported by end users?
somethingsomething. Reee how dare you not be able to make a engine in a week for free reee. Seriously the sheer amount of crunch and numbers and man hours would be atrocious. But I do hope management not the devs make some decisions to hope leviate some issues the last 3 weeks.
Doesn’t matter they are owned by a multi billion dollar company they are just lazy. File size doesn’t matter Jedi survivor is 155gb and is a 10/10
@@doomslayer8025 single player games get far more technical development time that multi player games. Especially a live service one.
As someone who worked to an extent with unity, I once looked into UE4 and it was so completely different, that nothing you know carries over. That in mind, going from a custom engine to a standard one would not only require massive amounts of work, but also break the workflow of the development team. Also I feel like the video explains this problem quite well for non-programmers, Good Job.
Can't explain that to non developers tho lol, I've seen what it takes to swap engines lol, I played runescape alot and when they swapped from osrs to rs2 it wasn't possible to carry your old stuff over to the new game, the game was completely changed lol. All theese "internet developers" don't know much😂😂 glad to see someone who does
Datto's clickbait headline: "you don't know anything about game engines"
Me, a professional game developer with 16 years of experience: 😮
Seriously now, this is overall a good video and I'm happy to see it.
A few comments:
- You are not only right about game engines having old code in them because it works... You didn't go far enough back! There is still code from 1996's Quake in modern game engines such as Source.
- if Bungie used a third party engine, such as Unreal, they wouldn't do it without having source code access, so your point about support being slower is not *entirely* accurate. The thing is, Bungie engineers would probably need support often because they would not be as familiar with the new engine code as they were with their proprietary one. Also, the "bike with a car engine" metaphor is pretty smart, because if Bungie makes too many modifications to a 3rd party engine it can end up with such a different tech that future updates from that engine's creators cannot be integrated easily - or even at all! Thus losing the advantages of having that 3rd party engine in the first place.
- About servers and etc: 99% of the time, when we talk about engines in game development, we are talking about client-side tech ("front-end"). Things like rendering, input, audio, etc. Server code is usually a completely different tech, and usually coded in a different language than client code. So "server issues" are almost never related to game engines, apart from integration issues.
- Great points about Destiny 3 as well. Players often fantasize about "new engines" and "new tech" when the reality is that the vast majority of code from previous tech gets reutilized, and is only replaced slowly over time as new techniques such as tesselation, ray tracing, etc get integrated, and pipeline/dev QoL improvements are done.
Overall, great video, I'll start linking it to gamer friends who make ill-informed "game engine" complaints.
I do art for game engines, like Unreal. I watched a GDC talk on how Bungie renders PBR, a system that allows multiple overlapping textures to create reflections, illusion of depth etc. and thankfully it’s a similar system. But if anyone suggests implementing anything other than textures, and model files into a new engine, you’re insane. Skeletons, effects, lighting, oh my god, PHYSICS, you’re insane.
Notice when there's a constructed comment where someone knows what they're talking about, no likes, no comments.
Also, game dev is cursed. A good number of comments start with 'wtf' and 'idk'. Having to go through and port 5 million+ lines of code, most of which already barely work, to another engine would likely be harder than translating a lost language.
It’s a sign of mastery to be able to simplify complex physical phenomena into lifelike, real-time effects in video games. Physics is hard, but simulating physics is harder.
@@tehblanketyblank8776 Why be rational when you can be mad?
JuSt CtRl+C cTrL+v
To further Datto's point about migration complexity
Satisfactory by Coffee Stain Studios is moving from UE4 to UE5. They talk a lot about what small modifications to the engine they have made, and how many people and how long they were working on the upgrade. While the team investigating the feasibility was small, it is worth keeping in mind how limited their customizations were. This all in mind, it has been months, even a year since they started looking into the upgrade to when they announced that they were going to do it. And that is UE4 to UE5, with a near ideal candidate for uplift. Moving a game like D2 to a completely different engine would be worlds apart more complicated.
I am a software dev, not for gaming but for another industry. I am working on an application that replaces a legacy application used by all of our clients. This application is nowhere near the complexity of D2, yet has taken us YEARS to get to the point where it can replace the legacy app for the majority of our clients. Every time I see the community complain about the speed of Bungie disabling an exploit vs the speed of patching a bug that is hurting them it kills me. Even from the outside, I know that the two are no where near the same level of complexity, and I can't even always gauge how long it will take me to fix a bug in my own code because I'll think it's something simple but it ends up being something complex and dependent on some bit of legacy code that is used all over the place, and only in this one context does it break. And that's when I have access to the code! I don't have access to the D2 code, and couldn't imagine what layers I would need to unravel to fix any given bug because I can only guess at the interactions that might be causing it. I get that it sucks when something that benefits us gets disabled quickly, yet something that hurts us takes time. But that happens often because the things that do benefit us like the shard exploit CAN be disabled by toggling a switch. Notice that the Vorpal bug has been around for a long time, that benefits us and it's still not patched, nor is it disabled because it can't be disabled without disabling every weapon in the game that has the trait. The same thing goes for things that hurt us, they usually don't take the form of something that can be easily switched off. I get that it sucks, I get that there is this desire to balance good bugs with bad bugs, and I do think that Bungie could do a bit better about addressing timelines to resolution or internal priorities about what is getting fixed, but it must be understood that easy "fixes" will almost always get prioritized over more complex ones simply because they are simple
The thing is, nobody is expecting Bungie to ship a new engine tomorrow. Nobody has said it's a quick easy effort. Datto's entire video is arguing against things nobody is asking for.
@@st0nedpenguin datto’s point is that making a new engine or porting D2 to one would take an insane amount of resources. his analogy about putting a car engine into a motorcycle was not as apt as it could have been. its more like doing that while moving at 60 miles per hour. in order to make changes on that scale, bungie would have to stop all development on destiny 2, which they have already said they aren’t going to do. its a non-starter
@@st0nedpenguin You don’t spend much time on Reddit, do you. Datto’s entire argument is refuting what MOST keyboard warriors on Reddit are absolutely asking for.
Yep, I used to build websites. I know what you're saying. They think they're wasting resources patching exploits instead of fixing bugs but I'm sure they're different departments at Bungie.
@@lostsurferjames5 I think it’s the communities you are involved in, I left the Destiny subreddits cause they were ruining the game for me, I just stick with cat subreddits and stuff about space.
I'm a programmer working in AAA game engines. Most of this was about right, but a few small things to correct:
Some game engines give you full access to their engine source code (Unreal Engine). This means that if you had a blocking issue, you don't have to wait on Epic to release a fix, you can just allocate some engineering time to modify the engine to do what you need it to do. This is a huge selling point for Unreal Engine.
Unity is a company which makes 100% of its revenue from licensing their engine to game devs, so if the engine source was publicly available, it would affect their bottom line. So, they guard that super closely. When I worked at Facebook, even they couldn't get engine code access even by offering truckloads of cash.
If you wanted to switch your game to a different engine, you pretty much have to rebuild it from the ground up. You also have to learn the ins and outs of that new engine. That can be months of ramp up time. You still have the texture, models, animations, sound & music, and all of the raw "art" assets you can reuse, but you'll certainly have to redo all the shaders, particle systems, game logic, user interfaces, etc. You're basically building a new game. The business case working for years to reproduce the same content, which already exists, and you won't make new sales off of... is a really bad business case. Not to mention, QA would need to thoroughly retest absolutely everything again. Is the bug an engine incompatibility issue or a dev implementation issue?
If you switch engines, build a new game and expect 6-12 months of ramp up time for your team of cross disciplinary devs to become proficient -- then expect the 3-5 year dev cycle.
I can’t understand why even though my Wifi is stable, I still face the connecting server issue from Destiny 2. Does other people also having the same issue even now ? Is my Wifi problem or Bungie poor server problems ? By the way, my WiFi is 2.4ghz
Will never tire of datto dunking on the community, keep doing you man.
I’m sure a lot of developers are very happy that this video exists. I don’t really know how game engines work but I am in the IT field and everything you said about users and their expectations vs reality is very relatable
The very fact that people think that a game only shares engines with another if they play similar is wild. In spite of what Rockstar Games pushed out
So much same
I paid for this product, why its not working is not my fucking problem.
@Mirasolov Klose Wrong, you paid for access to a product and signed (or checkmarked that you read and understood) a giant pile of legality that means that they can take the game down for any reason at any time and you can sit there or go outside and enjoy the free time you have been gifted. You are entitled to NOTHING so stfu and touch grass :)
@@mirasolovklose3888
Complaining about a product you paid for that isn’t working properly is valid. But offering unsolicited advise when you don’t have the matching accreditation is plain arrogance.
Posting my reply to another video about “Destiny 3” here (I’m a software engineer).
Three things about the need for a Destiny 3:
1) Some software engineers love rewrites. If a system is complex enough, they say a rewrite is the solution (rewrite here is “Destiny 3”). But rewrites are typically a non-solution; they may start off great because you are focusing on the core functionality, but once you start addressing the edge cases you end up finding they need the same exceptions you had and thought were just bad code.
2) The only recent issues that look like a systemic problem are the error codes, and those are likely to be caused by a recent change, not an engine issue.
3) New games typically have many more bugs than older games. Destiny 2’s list of known issues is minuscule compared to most games. It’s guaranteed Destiny in a new engine would have many more problems than it has now.
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Agreed. I think the only time a new engine is justified is when the current engine can't support certain features, or if in order to add a new feature, it would take a ton of work and be quite unstable, etc. (not worth it). Otherwise, the time spent working on the current engine means that it will be the smoother and more stable option.
Honestly, "your takes are bad and you should feel bad" Datto is my favorite Datto lol
lol same here
Right. Cause more money going into this franchise while the Crucible getting laggier is perfectly fine. Or farming for hours for the same two unusable perks is not bad coding either. But hey, simping for Datto is your favorite thing to Datto.
@@cautiouslycynical9786 :D
Why should anyone feel bad for wanting a better experience in something they paid for lol it being hard isnt our problem
@@Krohn117 No one should feel bad for wanting a better experience, his point was that simply demanding a new game engine is not going to make that happen.
Because they've ignored all the previous problems now it's too late. Yes it is entirely on bungie, they cant blame new content because the content is recycled and reskinned. If they would have actually fixed the game instead of saying throw more money at us, problems woulda been fixed.
I love the fact that datto is in a place where he can make money off of telling people he's tired of them looking to him to validate their thoughts about destiny.
I love the fact that his video is complete gargage.
@@st0nedpenguin Why, cuz someone had the balls to say that all this engine talk is completely stupid?
@@st0nedpenguin - Someone who has never touched a line of code in their life
@@gavo7911 Cmon don't be mean, Alex was really pbviously betting on that unreal 5 destiny 2 remaster LOL
Explain
Destiny 2 is the only game that removes content I already paid for and then occasionally sells it back to me again in some 'new' warped form.
The hoops that fans and content creators jump through to justify that is the worst part about this community.
I think it's safe to say this counts as an “Elitist Datto” video. I am 100% here for it. Thank you for speaking with logic and understanding.
not elitist, just furious
This is not elitist. Truth bombs all over the place.
To add my own piece:
Coming from somebody who works with and manages physics engines on the daily, replacing even just the physics system alone in any form of simulation wouldn't just mean changing around a few parameters, it would mean COMPLETELY re-programming a huge amount of the kinematic pieces in the game, unless somehow said new engine almost perfectly matches their old one.
Luckily, in my industry (Computational Chemistry), there's a lot of agreement about how physics should be handled, so most engines are fairly similar. Even still, trying to set up or boot a simulation in a new engine is horrendous, and can take hours to port even something simple.
If you take one look at even engines as common as Unreal vs. Unity, they're WILDLY different, way more so than the systems that I deal with. Even just rotating an object is a completely different process in each one.
It's really difficult to explain in words just how difficult porting something from one system of physics to another is - It's like trying to translate an entire book into an entirely different language - some words match up nicely, some are a bit iffy and need a lot of fine tuning, and a lot of them straight up do not have counterparts in this new system and need to be rebuilt from square one.
With the beyond light engine upgrade and scripting changes . There is definitely a link on why we will likely not get older missions in the exotic rotation.
I don't think that's true. I have no solid proof but I think older exotic missions will come back.
@@MangoKai I think so too.
Even with large overhauls of how the engine works Bungie could just recreate these old stages in the new system.
And a lot of the work in terms of audio, textures, models, map layout and planning would mostly be done already in that regard.
If anything they'll likely have them be last on their list of returning stage s because of this.
Just look at all the old raids.
@@MangoKai actually, there is and Datto knows it. He can’t say that because he’ll break his NDA, but when Aztecross broke it accidentally, it precisely on this topic.
@@MangoKai it’s not impossible (since they’d have to made from the ground up almost) but take for example outbreak. remember that one spot in duality where ur sliding down? Yeah in there’s one In outbreak I’m pretty sure it designed to kill so with the recent physics changes they’d probably have to revamp a shocking amount due to general changes from old code to gameplay mechanics that would not fit currently.
I'm a software engineer and your explanation is pretty good. I work in a support role and the thought of my programs being migrated to another BRAND NEW environment is something that is anxiety inducing
The way I see it, if Bungie is planning on running the game with new content beyond Lightfall and it's seasons, then it'll be a worthwhile investment. But I think a better investment would just make a new Destiny sequel with a completely new engine.
@@urazz7739 This video is directed right at you bud.
@@urazz7739 it will ONLY be a worthwhile investment if 1) destiny 3 2) people are willing to start anew, no progress carryover 3) destiny 3 would somehow manage to reach the success of destiny 2 (HIGH risk)
@@urazz7739 My guy, did you even watch the video? Or did you click on it just to read comments?
@@dragonstorm7861 you dont need to. anything he says will be rode by morons who dont understand this position anyways. youre all just sheep, he himself says he doesnt have a clue. so why should anyone take input from an idiot. the game is dead, big changes are required for the future otherwise they wont have a pedestal to yell from.
everyone in the community should watch this, take deep breaths, and watch it again.
Great video, but can we limit the group of people required to watch the video again to those who want Bungie to „just change the engine?“
This video was hilarious. Listening to Datto absolutely roast the community was the most entertaining thing I've seen on CZcams in awhile.
You don’t know anything about marketing, so don’t comment /s
@@shoheigoat4329 L
@@silentvoice2509 Why is that an L? That's Datto's argument here.
@@bannedmann4469 It's an L take because marketing experience has nothing to do with the original comment.
@@somemeatball368 ...it was the entire point of the video the comment was in response to.
Jesus Christ lol.
I’m regards to DCV. If you paid for it you should still be able to play it. Even if you never touch it you still payed for it
In other countries what they did with the DCV is illegal. My Japanese friend told me that the Asian market versions of Destiny 2 have playable seperate client versions of the vaulted content, or something like it, to comply with legal standards.
Bungie is simply not providing us with the same because they are not legally required to do so here. That's corporations and money for you.
As a software engineer, Datto is exactly right. Things that seem simple to users are actually insanely complex under the hood. As a result, what seems like simple asks are actually harder than launching yourself to the moon on a pogo stick.
No one is claiming that the necessary fixes are easy, but jut ignoring them or constantly delaying engine improvement because "they're hard" makes absolutely no sense...
@@Random-th7wm wanna opt unity's game engine source code and fix the collision issue they have with fast speeds? It takes time to locate an issue and fix the bugs causing it, make sure the fix doesn't cause new bugs or weird glitches in the code else where.
Who tf said they were easy? That's not the point but if your going to make a game, then you are responsible for the fixes of bugs or x y z. If you totally ignore them in general then it's not because it's hard to fix, it's because you can't be bothered or it's not important enough for you to care, until it is.
@Random I can't believe as a 16 year old kid I had a better grasp and understanding of this crap than you do now.
@@Random-th7wm If you think they are ignoring the problems, then you are wrong. It takes indefinite time, plus one thing can lead to other problems with ease. And if you think they are lazy, then go work for them and fix it. If you don't know how a program functions, then you should keep your mouth shut.
The big difference between the size of a game like destiny and most mmo, has alot to do with it being an FPS. There's a lot more effort put into the detail of the asset meshes and textures in an FPS, because you can aim at the environment, and crouch next to objects, in both cases getting extremely close to the environment. Which means you need greater resolution textures and higher poly count particularly if there's some semblance of photo realism.
MMO, using warcraft as an easy example. Has the camera pulled back. So they use low poly assets, with the detail of objects painted on instead of actual detail. They also can hide more flaws, because of how far back the camera is set.
This video has literally been music to my ears. THANK YOU FOR SAYING ALL OF THIS
Finally, someone in this debate who actually looks to be informed on the subject that is more complex than the majority of the Destiny community can comprehend
lmao this is comical
@@jamess.2491lmao so is your understanding of how games are made
@@GioGioPietromica425 as if you have any understanding. look where your getting input from
@@GioGioPietromica425 buddy I've worked in software engineering for 18 years so I GUARANTEE I know more about game development than you do. But do I go around lecturing people about how little they truly understand? No, because I'm not an expert either. Educate yourself before you go spouting nonsene on the internet.
@@jamess.2491 Well how am I supposed to know that, buddy?
Maybe if you didn’t sound like such a loser and actually explained why this person was wrong I’d take you more seriously but low key I don’t give a shit how much you know, because if you’re still gonna act like a dick after gaining all that experience, it wasn’t worth much, and I don’t really think you are either 🤷♀️
Datto is giving off Osiris vibes from the Lightfall campaign 😂
Thank God someone like Datto put out a video on this. Being a Software Developer myself, I was losing my mind with all the stupid "Update Engine" complainants from people that know nothing about software development. Thank you, Elitist Datto. We knew you could not die that easily. Love these videos.
when bungie themselves have pointed the finger towards their engine multiples times its natural most people in the community are also going to follow suit...
Do you think Bungie has a separate team dedicated to legacy code updates? What would be the issue of remaining on Tiger but having a long term project of a small team rebuilding the same game on the same engine even if the project takes a few years?
@@Blanktester685 Well said. This is just Bungo defense force. But accidentally called Bungo incompetent.
@@Azazel-uv3sx not a software dev, but i'd imagine a large part of it would be that the game and engine is constantly getting updated alongside it. so the task is just neverending, and would likely get outpaced by the main dev team if the new engine people are a 'small team'
remember all those things we lost inbetween the taken king and d2? imagine that on a significantly larger scale
edit: also not to mention, when that new engine eventually *does* get implemented, you have to teach everyone that wasn't on the small team how the heck you're supposed to do anything on it. which would take a bit
@@Azazel-uv3sx Because a small team would take decades. Actually a small team would never finish because the game gets updated constantly. How is a small team supposed to efficiently port current D2 in a reasonable time while keeping up with game updates made by a considerably bigger team? That‘s why the engine swap is so unfeasible - They would have to slow down or completely stop content releases OR D3/New Engine Destiny will lack a lot of content.
This was the most satisfying Datto teardown of idiots ive seen in a long time. Agreed on everything you said, its more productive to discuss figuring out server issues since this has been more of the core issue
I remember when they shed light on the sheer complexity of fixing the heavy ammo synth issues from D1, and that's one tiny bit of the game compared to doing a whole engine
I can't remember where I saw it but I remember Bungie said that the physics issues in the game are well known but would basically require a complete engine overhaul to fix. The physics that enabled titan skating, eager edge trolling, and randomly launch you into a wall and kill you are also the physics that affect how sparrows move, how you jump and run, how GLs and grenades arc their projectiles, how enemy AI jumps around are traverses the map, how jump pads work, and a million other things. Yes the physics cause a bunch of bullshit deaths and have doomed my warlock to hundreds of unavoidable deaths, but I would take literal years of non-stop work to even create a new physics engine which would undoubtedly feel and play different than the one we've been accustomed to for 9 years now.
@@Bipolar.Baddie Which is why I found it confusing Bungie would make a new kind of jump pad on Root of Nightmares. Why not just use Cabal jump pads for this? The major enemy on this raid is Cabal with pyramid tech so they could've easily just changed their appearance of the launchers to look more like pyramid tech if they felt they needed to and leaving it to look like Cabal tech wouldn't have been out of place either.
As someone who took video game developnent class in highschool I cannot fathom myself working with game engine, servers, maintenance, connection stabilty, co-op gameplay, user interface, player models, environment details, software stability, characters, story, and etc. which there is a lot more that I haven't mentioned and having to use differents codes that you aren't used to and having it to work completely, and having a legacy code is a lifesaver to many developers like its pretty much the holy grail
As a person who works in an IT environment. I agree with 99 percent of what you said. One point I would like to discuss.... Testing. I know it's a complex game, but it feels like nothing is tested. Like at all. And then things come back as glitches in new activities that use old mechanics.... If you copy pasta old mechanics, you should probably predict the old glitch will come back too.
Edit: just to be clear, I work all the way from initial testing to production for servers. So, I'm not just some cable guy lol.
Second edit: to clarify, complex bugs, I don't have a problem with, it's the ones that literally require them to play an encounter 5 times at most to find. See RoN second encounter. That shit failed so many times and it was a core mechanic. Those glitches I have a problem with.
Eh bad take
@@WHlSKYtx who had the bad take? Lol and why is it a bad take?
They have teams that test stuff.
Fixing stuff takes more than 4 minutes.
thank you
@@-Alpeter where did I say testing should take 4 minutes anywhere in my comment? I'm saying they need to hire more testers as the game becomes more complex, I would assume in an exponential fashion (you know cause you can combine things) and yes it will take longer. But you should never stack an unfinished product on top of an unfinished product. The testing and approval process for something as simple as a server for a website takes at least a couple weeks per procedure. At a minimum.
As a freshly graduated student who took up a game development course in college, Datto's whole section on game engines was sort of amusing to watch
what a cringy, elitist comment...
In a good way, or was he wrong?
@@StaticArcadeLIVE in a good way, man kinda highlighted how it felt learning how to use the different game engines
Oh genuine question where did you get your degree in? I actually did get my degree in game development lol
@@Random-th7wm Learn to shut up bro
Very good video. BUT towards the end all I could focus on was whether Datto was going to save the GM with zero revives and being the only fire team member left!
Same lol
Can I ask for an encore? ENCORE!! This was wonderful to watch. Thankyou for standing up for devs
Datto's ability to be so concise and articulate on such a boring conversational issue will always impress me. Easily one of the best informative/instructional/analytical CZcamsrs of all time.
Facts Datto really is one of the best content creators.
You are easily impressed. This was just an argument of authority to support the Bungo defense force.
@@bannedmann4469 cringe take
@@Hardrive2677 not cringe, you’re just riding him hard
@@TheRealCake you’re not wrong
I liked your reference to "Tech Debt" which is a buzz phrase that most people outside of the developer world don't actually know the meaning of. Replacing an entire Game Engine wont erase the tech debt built up over the many years destiny has been out, if anything it will just replace it with more stupid problems that take time/energy/and most importantly to a company MONEY to fix. Thanks for your hot (but accurate) takes on this. Love your content (past and present) 👍
"Your english novel has some grammatical errors, rewrite it in spanish."
The best solution IMO is we need Season Health, like Rainbow 6's operation health. Cut down one season and give the devs some time to patch some huge technical debts.
Tech debt (shortcuts) always catches up and usually has a crippling cost to recover. I've been a Network and Security Engineer for 24 years and have seen this countless times. I can almost guarantee the people who do the actual work wanted to do things right but were overruled by short sighted management. For the game to be in such a bad state this probably happens a lot.
Absolutely. It’s clear from the dev comments that the technical debt is enormous. The Always on Time bug is a great example
Yep. That’s why I hope they actually end things with final shape and not try to pull an Attack on Titan Final final final season final part. Time to move on, hopefully Bungie gives us closure.
So to return to Datto's car analogy, it would be like putting off replacing the brake pads for whatever reason, let's say short on money, and wait too long until the brakes fail.
Basically, Subnautica.
sadly it happens more often than not, been seeing it lately with some server 2012 boxes and a few Centeras with years worth of info
I don’t even play Destiny anymore but boy do I love to hear some brutal honesty from Datto every once in a while
when you say brutal honesty you mean "I need to simp Bungie because if I dont, I'll never be invited again for the secret feedback convention?"
@@alekiller2 datto is many things but he's no simp for Bungie lmao idk how you take it as simping but my word do you have some self reflection to go through
@@alekiller2 get a life
@@alekiller2 lol give me a break
@@nazarus1283 skimping maybe not.
But it's a standard bad faith take of community feedback.
Example: Framing the engine complaints as people asking for Bungie to just "copy and paste" destiny into a new engine is just terribly bad faith.
On a side note that has to do with the footage. On strand titan i noticed you looking around to hit your allies with the tangle for woven mail. You can throw the tangle at them and since you have the aspect equipped for it, the woven mail will pulse twice over the span of 3 seconds i think. So long as you make it into that pulse you'll still pick up woven mail too. It's pretty nice to be able to chuck a tangle at allies ahead of you and pick up the pulsing tangle's woven mail along the way. Lastly, thank you for showing the clutch solo GM completion all the way through. I was on the edge of my seat thinking you were not gonna show the end since it was just background footage lol.
Yeah, it's what I do if I feel there are too many enemies around for me to really kill with the tangle, especially if they are high hp.
sry man but bungie dont fix anything yet plum bug error is still alive on these days :/
Unhinged Datto > Elitist Datto 😂
When John Romero's team was developing Daikatana, they built it in the Quake engine, but early in development Quake 2 was revealed. They decided to build the game in Quake 1's engine and port it over to the Q2 engine when it became available to license. Romero was a longtime game developer at that point, he worked alongside Carmack to make Wolf 3D, Doom, and Quake 1; he was confident that the game would be pushed back just a few months, from a Christmas release to March '98. When the new engine arrived, it turned out to be a much bigger task than he thought. Daikatana was eventually released in May 2000.
Not really a good example as Romero wasn't the type of developer known for 3d expertise and his company was more or less a shit show
You forgot the most important part - the resulting game was a complete POS
A more egregious example would Duke Nukem Forever, which was originally meant to release by december of 1998 but ended up releasing in 2011 because its own producer also was a 'WOW NEWER ENGINE, MORE BETTER!' kinda guy and he demanded these engine changes at such a fast rate that a lot of potentially fun and well made content and countless hours of impressive work were thrown to the garbage bin (see the DNF 2001 build leak).
This is a decent example but they say there was a lot of slacking off involved too. Like, a LOT. Like Romero would sometimes not come in to work for days or come in and spend days just playing online pvp while ya-hooing, ye-ha-ing and generally goofing around. So they say.
THANKYOU DATTO!!! As someone who does light game dev as a hobby, I *REALLY* appreciate this video.
Probably my favorite Datto video in a while honestly.
I did some coding classes in college for fun, and I can only IMAGINE the LINES of code for everything. We only used C++ and that was hard to make some simple things. I can only imagine proof reading Destiny’s code to fix things. Props to the devs putting up with all the hate. You can only do so much with the resources you have and have to sometimes pick the lesser of two evils. You got this Bungo.
They don't have it, they've never had it. Things are getting worse. What are you on about?
@@bannedmann4469 I want to see you do it, do you even know HOW MANY lines of Code Destiny 2 has? 5.1 Million! And that was a few years ago
You wanna find a tiny bug or even a huge interconnected Problem in that? I thought so. They work tirelessly on fixing the game but small changes take a huge effort in such a big game when it comes to inner workings. It's not just "a single line change" it does not work like that.
thats just pure cringe. they dont code like in schools. they used templates and other stuff they have separate people to check the code for them. stop defeding bungie for doing fuck all lmao
@@nobodyuwu3970 youre a furry. you dont even know outside world. furry weeb shilling for corpo
Weirdos who've never coded a damn thing in their lives try not to armchair game dev challenge: Impossible.
The bad code you're harping on about is responsible for (well, fucking everything in the game, but more specifically) the world renowned gun play and weapon feel.
But sure, the whole game code is bad, throw it all out and do it again for Destiny 3... Oh, but please continue doing D2 in the meantime, oh and still make new content too, oh and stop reusing assets for new content ya lazy devs, oh and make sure I still have all my cosmetics I paid for.
I'm so happy you made this video, as someone who's entire degree covers the technical side of games development it's very difficult to explain this in a way that people can comprehend if they haven't done it themselves at any point, and understandably so since the industry isn't for everybody. The amount of time it takes to do even small features, making sure they work, making sure they work with other systems, bug fixing, updating when they want to develop new features, rebuilding when necessary, it's a lot.
Argument of authority.
Same position. Anytime someone makes a video or drops a fully uninformed take in comments it just makes me sad.
Real ones remember when the game was over 150GB and climbing, before the DCV plan was announced.
Im more than happy that the devs are trying their hardest to make the servers better and just the game overall. Look at some other multiplayer games where publishers drop the game then just dip
The game Rain World was ported into Unity in mid development, which took them about 2 years to do. Destiny, which is basically 100x as big would take an insane amount of time and effort to port to a different engine
AND this is after the game has launched so even harder to do
That engine analogy was so spot on I laughed way harder and longer then I should have.
I really thought he was going to say changing the engine is like changing the engine of a car, but the car is moving. 😅
Do you think when car manufacturers make a new car they reinvent the engine from scratch every time?
Also you can literally lift an engine from a classic Porche 911 and drop it into a classic Beetle. Not the best analogy.
the "destiny2.engine file" got me
@@st0nedpenguin dude thinks care engined and game engines are the same thing lol
@@st0nedpenguin except he used a motorcycle as the example, you troglodyte
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK DATTO!!! As a comp sci student, 100% agree with literally everything here. Particularly the "Devs won't change code that isn't broken" part. Most non devs wouldn't understand that. Would love to see those same people go and get a cs degree with me and see just how difficult it is.
Bungie holds secret summits with its content creators " datto " : I don't know what goes on at bungie 😂
Unironically, it was precisely this kind of talk that made me go into game dev and programming in the first place. If everyone kept saying 'just swap engines' and Bungie apparently wasn't doing this really simple thing, then there had to be an answer as to why. Which was what kickstarted this whole thing in the first place. Your 45 minute conversation with someone about game engines was how I started too, and then proceeded to spend the next couple of years learning these engines and learning how to code. I went to go figure out why, and loved every moment of it too. Turns out, this shit is just insanely complicated.
I majored in comp sci and work as a software dev now, and let me tell you, game dev is INSANELY complicated
Stuff like this is why, when I hear someone complain about Bungie fixing specific bugs before others or not fixing the server issues, my first question is, "Have you ever coded anything in your life?".
I honestly felt the exact same way as you and it’s the reason why I went into software development. I now have a greatly newfound respect for game developers and give them a break whenever a bug or glitch comes out or even a server issue here and there.
Never trust a gamer when they tell you to _simply_ do X, or _JUST_ DO X.
Cause if it were that simple, they'd have already been on it.
Ok, so I have a question, if you know. Obviously a Destiny 3 wouldn’t get a new engine, but wouldn’t there still be a lot of new development and an ability to fix or re-write a lot of the code that’s causing issues? It’s a lot easier to make new things than try to work on all that legacy code from what I’ve been told?
As a game dev student, I really appreciate you doing this. It frustrates me so much how people are never satisfied with the things we create to make them happy.
I don't know how yall do it. I once had aspirations to make video games and began teaching myself C++, then I began noticing how ignorant, infuriating and insatiable video game consumers tend to be, more so than consumers of other entertainment media, and it killed my desire.
@@CouchCit Hell, the consumers are the least of the problems for the poor bastards who get into game design. Good luck finding a company to work for that isn't pure shit.
Make em happy? It's for profit, are you that soft in the head? Or should I tell you to cut the crap. Also people are satisfied with good products and services. Maybe you should consider the alternative that Destiny has rarely been that.
Fuckin hell, God forbid a paying customer has complaints. Even Datto went out of his way to say the complaints were valid, in this very video.
In the same way people are annoyed about a shitty meal prepped by a reckless chef, who charges full price... We get annoyed about shitty deployments thrown out by reckless devs/Bungie leadership.
It's not charity work. Devs may make games for people to love, but they're charging money that we put work in to earn.
@@jonathanwilliams3713 People make the choice to buy it tho. At this time, if anyone is not satisfied with the way the product is delivered (and it has been the same way for years), do not buy it or assume your purchase. On the other hand, bungie should be more transparent about the state of the game for sure.
I have to thank you for making this vid Datto. I've been playing casually since the D1 alpha(might have been a beta, can't remember), and my software engineering career began about 2~ish years prior. FAR and away, the *single *most *frustrating part of being along for the ride during that time(for me), has been the community. By which I really mean, it's borderline unbelievable depths of ignorance regarding the difficulty, complexity, and fluidity of software development in general, and aaaaall the more so with online game programming. It's MASSIVELY complex, and it has been killing me for years hearing technically-ignorant content creators rail against 'the devs'. The devs this, the devs that, why can't the devs EVERYTHING, the devs SHOULD or SHOULDN'T HAVE blah blah blah. It's sooo frustrating. . It's also made significantly worse by content creators on youtube and elsewhere just leaning into the narrative that any part of this process is simple, or that 'the devs' seem to have sole control of the narrative/mechanic direction / powers of creation over the whole system(of systems). For years, it's been lack of understanding, on top of ignorance, on top of unreasonable complaining. I mean dang people, it's difficult even for professionals & experts, because the libraries and frameworks they employ are also changing underneath them, as are even the deployment targets hosting tech. In a serious way, I feel that laaaaaaaarge swaths of our community genuinely need to go out and 'touch grass'. While out there, they can crack open a book on memory management in c++. Or perhaps take a systems design course. Or learn about backend software architectures. Or delve into network security. Or what a race-condition is. Or how CDNs work. Or how you implement internationalization. Or pessimistic concurrency. Or how to carry off live update strategies like blue/green deployments. Or data replication. Or event(s) processing. Or how complicated rotation in 3D space actually can be, and why quaternions are evil/the devils plaything/ what gimbal-locking is. Or any of a million other sub-disciplines that all have to work in concert to bring what has by and large been an amazing, and difficult to deliver experience for all these years. Honestly some of my peers in the community(even my own friends I play with regularly) make me think perhaps the Witness -should- win. Lol or at least randomly in-game finger-slice a few of their outrageous attitudes down to a more manageable size. The Traveller must have been massively concussed when it gave some of y'all the light.
This. So many people lack a framework for what respect looks like. Respect for game devs and what their challenges look like. Respect for police and how difficult/dangerous their job can be. Respect for doctors and scientists when they tell us to take a vaccine. It’s mind blowing how little people understand and how much they pretend to know.
stop relating to the devs, and stop covering for them, you're not working for them and they should get over it. Excuses excuses, deliver a better product. This reads like "never do anything or expect anything because it's actually hard :((((("
@@silent6234 "you're not allowed to be skeptical unless you disrespect authority" OK
This is true for basically all game communities, honestly. Even outside of games, people think programmers are wizards that you can tell them "thing broke. fix plz" and they'll be able to do it.
As I'm finishing my sophmore year in college studying software engineering it kinda feels nice to recognize about half of the things you mentioned. Been studying the different types of software architectures, and been taking classes over computer systems engineering and coding close to the hardware interface with assembly. Stuff is cool.
I dont mean to say I have any idea of the problems with D2 but it feels good to start to get familiar with knowledge that is relevant to the conversation.
"Just change engine" worked ~really~ well for Duke Nukem: Forever. Just imagine doing the same with something that has an infinitely bigger scope, online components, steady content updates, and more.
I was baited until i saw " duke nukem forever "
15:40 Ooh, game dev student here, I know this one! CoD keeps the file size big to make people not want to uninstall it because re-installing it would be a pain, and therefore they play the game more and are more likely to spend money on it. Basically the same reason Las Vegas casinos are deliberately laid out unintuitively with no windows so you can't tell how much time has passed and are more likely to get lost and spend money
@tee mo sarcasm
Datto, you brought up a point @ 17:27 about the engine update with Beyond Light messing with older content.
I want to emphasize to others that the engine update *itself* wasn't the issue, it was the content that was dependent on bits and pieces that the previous version of Tiger Engine had. One of the big changes that was mentioned in TWABs before Beyond Light dropped was that the mission scripting model. That being updated to Physics Host instead of Mission Host caused a huge chunk of old content being borked due to the scripting system being changed. So essentially Bungie would have to rebuild 3-years of content, they rebuild some of it, but a lot of it would have to be put into the vault.
The big reason why Bungie hasn't worked on that content is due in part to internal reasons with a lot of Bungie devs being shifted around from Destiny to other unannounced projects..
Changing a game’s engine is a difficult and time consuming endeavor, and server issues have little or nothing to do with an engine, but the reason the community ever started the new engine debate is because bungee has been blaming the outdated and clunky engine for years for game wide problems.
Notably, you can substitute new engine for dedicated servers and end up with a very similar argument, because Tom allow the dedicated servers for pvp that people want it would require a whole rewrite of the network architecture which would be a massive endeavor.
A long time ago I remember Frank O’Connor saying something like “The problem with sequels is that they need to be exactly the same, but infinitely better”.
This is the biggest W I've seen this week. As someone who has been in software dev for 30 years in everything from AAA game companies, and FAANGs to fortune 500s and startups.
The community has every right to be frustrated, but the community has shown that they think they are experts in a domain that they clearly aren't.
Do I know what Bungie should do? No and neither does anyone who hasn't seen the code base.
yeah, i've just graduated in iT, and even with my understanding ( albeit small, but vastly bigger than half of reddit or so it seems ) i can understand that those problems have nothing to do with doing a switch in engine, which would be such a killer move ... for the game that is
Seeing people complain about engine and "spaghetti code" like they know the world about it is hella infuriating
Dont think anyone is an expert, but they know enough to want their yearly money worth it
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
how do you know its not an engine problem when you just admitted you don't know the problem...
@@Blanktester685 knowing it got nothing to do with engine doesn't imply knowing what causes the problem
Imo it seemed like most things I saw posted people were more upset at Bungie for patching things like Rahools shard emporium in 10 hours but still have things that are basic functions that don’t work. Just my opinion not trying to throw hate or speak for everyone. It was more the timely matter of the fix rather than just pure hate. And I think most content creators are just fishing for content and a good clickbait title.
as someone studying game development everything dato has said in the game engine portion of the video is 100% true
Here’s something I actually do feel qualified to tell Bungie:
I would be ok with changes coming out at a slower rate to allow for more QA. I think it is “as easy” as that in terms of avoiding rushed patches that break the game for a week and then are themselves patched up.
As someone in the industry, I want your video framed and put on my wall.
Might buy a cheap tablet. Download the video. Put it on subtitle loop. Fuckin' A+ dude.
I’ve watched every video you’ve ever made about Destiny, many of them multiple times, and this might be my favorite. Any reasonable, thoughtful player should be positively overwhelmed when they consider the amount of work that goes into designing and programming this game, and the constant suggestion that every issue, especially technical ones, are due to incompetence is exhausting, and often clogs up or derails the discourse in the few places where players can actually gather to talk about this game. Thank you for making this video, Datto.
The more I grow as a professional software dev, the more fascinated I am at the technical side of video games and the more amazed I am that any are stable at all.
I feel it would be the opposite of what you said. It's like stripping the car of everything (the games content) and trying to jigsaw it onto a smaller, stronger, faster chassis/frame (the game engine)
It MIGHT fit, but it would look garbage, probably fall apart, and will DEFINITELY COST YOU A LOT IN REPAIRS, which is a huge thing that people don't think about
This video was entertaining and savage as hell, Bungie should post this on their page under D3 and Engine suggestions. Man I liked this video.
"You are not the problem solver. You are the problem reporter." Said EVERY IT support person ever. When someone says something is wrong, we want to hear what is happening. Not what you think the problem is. This is a fantastic talk. Thank you for saying the things that needed to be said.
I'm sorry Datto, but your defense for the DCV is just ridiculous. Saying that its ok for Bungie to remove content that WE PAID for simply because it causes structural issues within the game is not a great excuse, especially when we aren't even getting a significant quantity nor quality of content to make up for it and the technical issues are still persisting. Those structural issues are on Bungie as they very clearly have not optimized the game properly because there is absolutely no reason that the game should be as large as it is based on the size of content that is provided to us players. Especially when you compare Destiny to other games that provide ten times the amount of content of Destiny, have similar level of graphical fidelity, similarly sized loot pools, etc. yet are far far smaller than Destiny downloads. The fact that Destiny is still having the technical issues despite removing so much content clearly demonstrates that Destiny has structural problems that needs to be addressed and that removing content was just a bandage on a bullet wound. Trying to excuse that difference in optimization between Destiny and other games by saying it's because other games are built different is just ridiculous as that just means Bungie wasn't competent enough to properly build Destiny for the type of game it's supposed to be.
The reason why Bungie didn't just bring back all of the vaulted content after the backlash was because Bungie knew it would be better for themselves to simply remove content rather than fix the structural issues with the game. Bungie knows that they can abuse the Destiny community and a majority of them will keep coming back and since the effort/resources required to fix Destiny's issues are significant, Bungie probably figured it'd be better to bandage the issue rather than fully deal with it. This is more than likely imo as it's pretty obvious that Destiny is not a top priority for Bungie as their deal with Sony and the numerous other games they reportedly have in development are clearly their top priority right now, not Destiny. Not to mention, they can also repackage and reship that content back to us later as "new" content instead of making actually new content and get brownie points from a portion of the community. Bungie is making us pay for their incompetence by removing content that we paid for simply because they know they can make us suffer instead of putting forward the resources to properly maintain Destiny and trying to excuse that predatory action is just insane to me.
wayothefro in agreement from me too (depends).
''-You Don't Know Anythi-' - '-But what I do know is that the response of "just get a new engine," is not the brilliant take people think it is. While the stability issues and the server issues since Lightfall have been annoying, this problem is so much more complex-'.
'yes', 'yEs', keep these and the franchise's current Day status quo coming, Typical bungo-Licking-Only type B-defenders/Excuses out there. etc etc. [Boredly yawns]' - from my earlier, similar review Today.
I fucking love the way Datto is talking to the community right now.
I hope you see this Datto,
I mentioned this in the stream yesterday but here is a bit of a longer format on what I said. I don’t know if this was from the beginning your intention when you started your Destiny journey but over the years I have found that despite what state the game is in. Wether it was D1 or D2 you have ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY been the voice of reason. You have never pulled punches when it came to critiquing the game and stating where it needed improvements. ALSO you always brought it home with realistic truths on how great the game IS and how far it’s come and will go. In the same moment offering solutions and ideas on how to improve key elements. Your delivery has been unmatched.
I’ve started to notice more and more creators and social media personalities jump on the band wagon of bashing the game. (I think for likes, views, and the engagement. Sadly it’s good for busniess)* Offering solutions that many have no idea how to implement. Everyone seems to think it’s a QUICK FIX and Bungie has to get it right on the first try. They’re human! They’re people with everyday lives, family’s, children and loved ones. They’re doing what they can. So I hope people have a bit of humility in all of this. Yelling at Bungie every moment of every day isn’t getting your messages across. THEY KNOW AND HEAR YOU. Now let them make the necessary changes and MOVE ON.
To all the arm chair developers and key board warriors. I leave you with this. Please get off of Twitter and any other social media site and go touch grass. Then happily come back load up Destiny 2 and enjoy as a solo player or with your friends. Because we all know that despite our gripes with the game. It holds a special spot in all of our hearts. An old familiar friend that we can’t be long without. I hope Bungie does the best they can. I have faith in them. We all should…we stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. Not a war with each other. Eyes up guardian.
Thank you. So much yes. This is just as correct today (especially as the servers are down right now!) as it was last month.
The engine argument is stupid. But I do believe Destiny 3 has to happen because of two factors:
1, Bungie already said no more sunsetting expansions. And yet, they're gonna keep adding expansions to Destiny 2? I just can't imagine that being possible.
2, I believe after Final Shape we are getting Age of Triumphs 2. They're gonna bring back Red War, the old planets, and the 5 sunsetted Raids all back. Instead of seasons, they're gonna slowly reintroduce those. They've already technically been doing that by multitasking, with bringing back the Farm, Mars, and soon Titan.
Age of Triumph 2, slowly being released, will occupy Destiny players until Destiny 3 comes out.
One of the most true things that I have ever heard a professor say while working on my computer science degree, especially in regards to making a new game or new engine is this: “New doesn’t mean better, it just means new”
Well unreal engine 5 especially 5.2 is better lmao. Way easier for devs to create games than other engines out there due to massive support from epic and new technical tools like lumen, in editor animation, real time rendering etc etc. Unreal engine 5 is so amazing
@@ultragoldcoin8780 And yet, a huge portion of games are written in a language (C++) that first broke ground in 1985. A language so effective at this that when Minecraft went and used Java as its language of choice, one that's a scant ten years younger than C++ and was already 14 years old on Minecraft's release in 2009, it's still made fun of for using an objectively shittier language for games. New isn't always better.
@@ultragoldcoin8780
"way easier" unity is easier, unreal is just fancier
"especially 5.2" how the hell 5.2 is easier to develop when compared to 5.0?
"lumen" how does this ease things as well? It's another layer of complexity to make easier graphics.
@@yol_n lumen is a fully dynamic global illumination and reflections system, that can be turned on in unreal engine allowing Devs to not so much time creating there own lighting system, let alone an advanced lighting system such as lumen. I said it's easier for Devs to create games with unreal engine 5 because Epic made the engine with that in mind for ease of use and time reduction. All the tools in new updates like unreal engine 5 like nanite, vsm, Automated PSO caching for DX12, cleaner modern ui for easier application and use of in game development, better animation and rigging enchantments etc etc. Unreal engine 5 is made for devs to not have to spend so much time making games, plus they have AI in the engine to make assets.
@@ultragoldcoin8780 you can’t definitively say it’s easier unless you actually have knowledge of Destiny 2’s code base and how it would transfer over the UE5. I would say you’re correct if we’re talking about a completely new game that doesn’t have to flawlessly transfer everything over, but in the case of a pre existing live service game where the goal is to have it up as much as possible, that just wouldn’t work. It would take years of effort to learn the new engine and get back to where they currently are, and even then it would likely come at the cost of changes and content updates to Destiny 2 under the current engine. Things would eventually get back to normal, but how long would that take? Likely years given how veteran developers wouldn’t necessarily have the same level of transferable experience with a new engine and the amount of content that bungie is constantly pumping out. It just isn’t feasible to simply swap engines at this point. Even if they were to make a Destiny 3 and completely start over, it would take a very long time while D2 is left on life support. And for anyone who thinks it’s on life support now, it can and will absolutely get worse if they move resources to a new game or effectively new game with a port of D2 to a new engine
Great vid holy shit. I will say I think we are just at a current point where frustration has superseded communication. We’ve been here we’ve done that and we’re all still here.
I think it'd be kinda fun if one day we get a Destiny game where we can play different races like Fallen or Cabal since they seem to be pushing this whole idea of all the races working together
I feel D2 will move in that direction eventually.
They might have to actually do the D3 new engine thing to pull that off, which is why I think if they do it they'll have to do it after their main narrative arc ends so they can give themselves the time it'll take to develop that without having to also maintain a live-service game on top
@emPtysp4ce yeah duh. Why I said one day. I expect to see The Elder Scrolls 6 before then
that would probably require being something like a hero shooter like overwatch
great video overall, my only gripe is with, "if you found a bug or problem that needs to be fixed, don't give them ideas of how to fix them" what a terrible take. That is unbelievably unproductive and incentivizes a community that does nothing but complain and no drive to be better. if you work in an office and every day you get 20 emails saying "The microwave sucks" how are you gonna know what needs to be fixed? is it broken and we need a new one? is it too small and we need a bigger one? does the door not shut and we need to tighten a screw? does it not get your food hot and we need to turn up the power? These are productive suggestions we need to know in order to fix these things in a timely and informed manner.
I feel like you watched the video but also didn’t watch the video… know what I’m saying? Datto literally just said they don’t need our solutions. That’s all. We definitely should report when things are busted and we should definitely try to provide as much information as we can about what is broken and what is happening but we shouldn’t be literally trying to tell the developers how to do their jobs.
@@benharris7992 he said and quote “if you find a bug, record it, write it down, submit a report on bungies website, try to reproduce it. Step 3. DONT SUGGEST FIXES” this incentivizes a community that has nothing productive or helpful to help the game grow. Without a community that shares what they want, bungie will do whatever they “think” the community wants. Which has and will never go over well, we need to be transparent of our expectations and our desires for the game to become something we want to play.
I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons for the DVC was changes to the lighting system which required assets to be updated. They probably solved the problem by removing the rarely played content and updating the assets for the widely used assets. This probably allowed the engine to not have to support both lighting models simultaneously.
Probably one of the biggest source of technical debt is supporting multiple ways of doing things in order to support legacy customers/assets/deployments/platforms.
I suspect they've been trying to strip out their older light map driven approach to lighting updating it with either a more recent one or implementing some kind of systemic GI. I'm convinced the lighting changes in BL included some kind of dynamic GI but I don't know enough about the topic to say. Additionally I'm certain the game used asset duplication a ton to help with disk loading on last gen at the cost of space and bungie has been slowly pruning it out resulting in smaller file size and worse last gen performance
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Unfathomably based video.
Sometimes, you want to do whatever it takes to help people understand and give guidance where needed, and sometimes you want to listen to the schadenfreude of literally hundreds and thousands of gamers being told how wrong they are.
As much as people want to get onto Bungie for what they do, it's not like the average person is able to do anything to *help* or *fix* the problems that the company has to deal with, between their own game falling behind and needing updates to the millions of fans yelling at them to "fix their game".
Just let them do what they do. If someone is pissed off that their game is breaking, then stop playing. Go do literally anything else. Don't buy the "touch grass" emote when you can just go outside your house right now to do that.
To the people who are kind enough to understand and are patient to wait, I appreciate you all. You guys deserve a lot of good your way.
To the people who can't wait another moment and want to yell at either me or Bungie for any reason, close your screen and take a break. I do want you all to keep your sanity, genuinely.
A game is a game after all, and there's always another one out there. 👍
I can wait for Destiny 2 to get fixed (even if they have to cancel season 21 to do it), but I can't wait for the heated gamers to calm down and be patient.
(Edit:) I know I'm going to have at least one commenter yell at me or throw shade just to get their anger out, and I don't care. If you're going to get mad, throw it here and see if I care. If you instead want to reasonably put your thoughts down, I'm happy to read them. Please, please, please do take care of yourselves.
i agree with you
Datto a month and a half ago: "Elitist Datto is dead, don't expect him to be coming back for a while"
Datto these last couple videos:
Honestly? The Take-No-Shits Give-No-Fucks Datto in these videos is a joy to watch. It's cathartic to hear the stupid crap that people spew be put on blast with the reality of the situation.
Datto acting as though his mild ass, super round about, occasional criticism of bungie is at all harsh.
he needs to protect his interests, but I also believe he's apathetic to the complaints and gripes he has because with bingle, if it ever gets fixed, it's a surprise. and constantly nagging on this game drags you down, so people let go of that shit
I don’t disagree whatsoever
As somebody that's been a game designer for over a decade and a half, the phrase "you can't game design your way out of server maintenance" is true for basically every aspect of the game. Yes, part of the job is understanding your technical limitations and designing around them, but sometimes (especially in long-term projects) new issues you have no way of knowing of show up, and there is no realistic way to "design around" them. Or something that has been off your desk and in developers' hands for weeks or MONTHS suddenly has a problem that you have no solution for (because you're a designer, not a coder, why would you know about some issue with the physics engine causing clipping when venus is in the fourth house). Situations where you have to send something mid-development (that hasn't even shipped, mind you) BACK to the designer to design around some previously-unknown deep technical limitation is likely going to result in all work on that aspect of the game to be reset to zero, or damn near close to it. On a busy content pipeline for a AAA live service game, that is outright not happening. Your on-the-ground developers are going to have to figure out what judgement call they can make, maybe consult with the designer for quick advice, and keep things moving as best as they can.
Re: engine argument, Datto is absolutely correct. Changing the engine does not guarantee anything. Y'know what might help? Cutting off consoles and making D2 dedicated PC-only. That is a BIG "might", too. I don't think even that would guarantee significant improvement. And of course that's also a non-starter because cutting off consoles means cutting off players, and more importantly, revenue streams. You just don't do that. That's dumb and I'm dumb for even including it in this post.
You're a braver person than I. I was going to mention compatibility and stability issues with consoles as severe detriments Bungie dedicates significant amounts of resources towards solving when they could probably just settle into the PC-only market. I have more than a few friends who have left the game because their focus seems too split between other platforms. Look at how much trouble they went through to get the game working on Stadia only for it to be shut down only two years after Destiny's launch on it.
Makes me wonder what the costs and benefits would be for Bungo of dropping Xbone and PS4 support. 🤔
@@Cross31415 obviously impact since there is a lot of console players.
But the game could be better if drop consoles and focused on only one plataform
60% of the player base of D2 is consoles.
I wouldn't cut off console as its most of the player base. As a console player I can tell you that players are not going to buy a gaming pc for 1 game, they'll simply move on. I would however drop old gen support (Xbox 1 and ps4) as having those still in the picture limits how much change bungo can make to the game.
The issue itself isn’t the current slew of bugs, servers and stability.
It’s the fact that Bungie have been blaming their engine for the past 10 years.
I wonder if anyone who complains about technical issues on twitter has ever actually gone through with making a report on bungies website 😮 i know i sure as hell haven’t
This has been the most entertaining video coming from someone who went to school for game design. I have these debates with friends all the time and I try to tell them I went to school, studies game design and how the whole thing works.
Also big praise about how players have 0 agency outside of reporting. I hate when people who have no idea what it's like to work at, with or around the engine let alone working in a game company in general and thinking they have an iron proof solution.
At about 17:45 where you ask if we’d rather have old content or new content; with what happened with lightfall, I’d say I honestly want my old content back. And the reason people want a destiny 3 is because the game was at capacity and they took away tons of our shit that we paid for. You say “oh well what about the people that paid micro transactions for d2 but what about the people that paid for the CONTENT?
That would also include that as well since I can bet alot of people would want their armor and weapons that they have on their character and vault which includes all of the weapons from release to now, along with everything everyone bought which may look easy but is probably not and won't be here in a long ass time
People flippantly saying "just make a new engine" don't realize that to software developers that sounds like "just move the skyscraper to a new foundation". It's fundamentally not possible to swap, because everything else is built off that foundation - the only thing you can do is rebuild. It's not quite as slow as building from scratch, since you can copy some designs and salvage some of the materials, but it's still costly to reassemble, and anything that was based on the specific geometry of the old foundation will need to be redesigned. Moreover, any previous safety assessment and testing is invalidated and will need to be redone, which will result in a whole new laundry list of issues to fix before the new building is even as good as the old one was.
The kicker to this insane leap of logic, of course, is that the reason they're asking for a new skyscraper foundation is because of some power outages due to faulty wiring, lack of paper in the office printer due to a supply issue, and insufficient toilets on the 9th floor - things that are not even remotely affected by the foundation. That's how stupid you sound if you talk shit about software engineering when you don't know anything.
oh my god holy shit man you said what i been trying to put into words
The fact that you used the term “tech debt” has me convinced you actually did your research. Networking security engineer here
So here's the deal as a software dev myself.
The issue isn't the servers or the engine. It's the mentality of the lead developers and the marketing teams.
Since Destiny's inception there had been a cycle of developing fixes and then selling those fixes. In every season or expansion drop bungie breaks something or changes something that doesn't need to change. Then when everyone complains they then market the fixes for the next season. There are a ton of examples over the past 8 years. Vault space, LFG, sunsetting, reducing PVP size, armor 2.0.
Destiny isn't a game that is meant to be good. It's meant to just good enough to have you wanting more. And that's how they suckered players for years into buying to season and expansions that are Half done