Setting a subwoofer's crossover for best sound
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- čas přidán 14. 12. 2021
- Subwoofers, whether in the control room or the home need to disappear and act as if the main speakers have bass. Here's how. Check out the Octave catalog HTTP://www.octaverecords.com
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Paul, I took your advice and added two REL S 812’s to my system. What an incredible improvement they made. Those M1200’s drive them beautifully!!!
Thanks for the advice!!!!
Thanks, Steve! Glad that worked and appreciate the feedback!
I love such informative videos
Also most imp Paul mentioning what to note in the track very important
Thank you. Need more tracks and what to look for in those tracks
That’s pretty much how I set up my subwoofer and it’s a very tricky adjustment to get right as you said. I also found that by adjusting a phase control that I have on my Carver True Sub made a truly substantial difference by locking-in the entire soundfield that was being presented by my Maggie 3.6R’s and this sub. That adjustment took me well over 20 minutes to get just right once I realized that something positive was happening as I was in the process of fiddling with the phase control. It was well worth the time and effort.
I have a pair of large floorstanders, which reach really low. But as Paul rightly says thee roll off is steep and my Rel subs augment that bottom end. The beauty of Rel subs is that the cross-over control is not calibrated, no visual indication of which value your setting. So, you absolutely have to allow your ears to be the judge. In my experience, that does take some time and trial and error, but you will know when you’ve got it right.
Again, as Paul correctly points out, regardless of how full range your main speakers are, unless they have integral active subs, you will substantially benefit from the addition of external subs and they don’t have or need to be ginormous power houses.
Enjoy the music!
To me, setting the subwoofers are the hardest to get right BUT when you do get it right, its just so satisfying. The problem when you try to overlap, its sometimes hard to pinpoint where its going wrong. From the positioning, volume, crossover point, and sometimes the phase. Every subwoofer response to different rooms makes it hard to give a general advise, you just have to play around with it until you get it right. The only general rule i have is when buying a subwoofer for mainly music application, get a sealed sub.
I believe I have taken Paul's advice some time ago. My Martin Logans' bass modules run down in the low 30 Hz. range. Using their matching Dynamo 1600 subwoofer with ARC, it is dialed to come in at 35 Hz. It is silent until there is the hit of a symphonic bass drum, or the lowest notes of the pipe organ. The only thing I need to do now according to Paul's AND Martin Logan's suggestion, is signal the subwoofer from the outputs of the Parasound A21 (O:
This information is amazing.Thankyou for sharing.
Thank you for this kind comment. I am here to help in any way I can.
I love much and bass.
Im so confused, get job much respect to this video, the experts and All the much lovers.
Paul, to which Vandersteen model speakers is this video referencing?
The model Quatro (and up) speakers have built in subwoofers, although only the flagship Model Seven's are truly full range (although I am not 100% sure of the model Kento).
Even if you have speakers that have built-in subwoffers and the speakers effortlessly go full range, you could still benefit from adding on subwoofers, which is why Vandersteen's System Nine package is comprised of both the Model Seven speakers + external subwoofers (plus other stuff).
By using a high-pass filter on the main speakers, the result is that the main speakers produce less bass, resulting in the main speakers shaking less, resulting in the other drivers shaking less, resulting in a more focused presentation.
The external subs will do the heavy shaking, outside of the main speaker's cabinets.
The above level of control comes at a cost, above what the Model Seven speakers already cost (I believe the subs are $20,000 -- and might be more, due to the price of everything on the rise).
To additionally reduce the amount of vibration to the main speakers (which, by the way, are designed to minimize vibration -- but you can only do so much with the cabinet design), Vandersteen offers granite bases for the model Kento and model Seven speakers. Those bases weigh something close to the speakers, themselves, and they make a real difference, for the better, in reducing vibration and improving the focus of the mids and the highs.
I do not know what level of engineering went in to your FR-30's cabinet design, to minimize the shaking of the other drivers. Please consider a video on that topic.
Getting back to my original question:
To which Vandersteen model speakers is this video referencing?
Thank you.
I dont think i need a subwoofer when i have a qarter wave T-line BMS12S330 with Icepower1200A2 + tube input. But its easier to use a subwoofer for better bass placement i can agree on that 100%
I have found that any track off of the Gary Wight Deam Weaver album helps fine tune the sub.
IME experience setting up many subs it's always best to first measure, then dial in by ear for final tuning. Why? Because there's simply no recording that will portray all the low frequencies at identical level to ensure as linear output as possible (assuming that's what you want and not a bass curve).
What's that keyboard track mentioned? Boz Scaggs?
Yes, Boz Scaggs and Thanks To You.
I can suggest another track that will nail down an acoustic bass. John David Souther album… “Black Rose“, track ‘Silver Blue’ that has Souther playing the Acoustic Guitar and Stanley Clarke playing his giant AA Biass. There is about a 40 second solo by Stanley where he runs down the scale from high to the lowest note that he can produce from his Bass and that last note is a great test that you can adjust your sub to integrate with your speakers. You may want to give it a try.
Paul: You state that all loudspeakers new subs. Is this true for the new FR-30 loudspeakers? Do they really need a sub?
Paul does try to choose his words carefully. And although he did speak accurately, you (probably) and I misunderstood what he said. I had to play it back again to realize that he got it right, when he said:
"There isn't a speaker out there, without its own built-in subwoofer, that is full range enough to qualify to not need a subwoofer -- you need a subwoofer."
His last "you need a subwoofer", I believe, is what sends mixed messages. By simply saying "you need a subwoofer" is contradicting his preceding comment.
Go back to where he said "without its own built-in subwoofer". That is Paul's qualifying criteria for whether or not your speakers need a subwoofer.
Basically he is saying that all speakers need a subwoofer, unless they have a built-in subwoofer (which makes sense, because if a subwoofer is built-in, then you do not need one -- or to be clearer, you do not need another one).
Whether or not his FR-30 speakers need the addition of a subwoofer depends on whether they have one built in. Due to the time it took to design and build that model, and all of the "full range" for realism videos Paul has made, including a recent video where he said that his FR-30 speakers have surpassed his IRS speakers, and moved the latter to make room for the former, then it stands to reason that the FR-30 speakers would have built-in subwoofers. But I have never heard Paul state such, directly.
@Lloyd Stout "I'll just add that any speaker with a "built in subwoofer" is marketing nonsense!"
By "any speaker", you imply that you did listening tests with every speaker that has a built-in subwoofer.
There are numerous speakers with built-in subwoofers -- some of them are "reference" level (or dream level).
Like any machine, there are crappy ones, good ones, very good ones, great ones, and flagship ones. I suspect that you have not experienced the ones on the higher end of that list.
Every full range speaker has a built-in subwoofer. Your comment suggests that they are all "marketing nonsense!".
Is that what you meant to convey?
A subwoofer should be hard to find with closed eyes. If you use it with a pair of small speakers, such as KEF LS50 Meta, your brain will fool you to think the small speakers are making all that sub bass even you are close to them. Subwoofers making a lot of harmonic distortion (some times 10s of percents) are easy to locate.