Was Joseph Vann a Cherokee hero or a slave-owning villain? How do we navigate complexity in history? 🟢Send me a coffee!: ko-fi.com/nytn13#linkModal ⚪Support more storytelling and get behind the scenes videos: click the "Join" button. 🟢Watch the docu-series "Finding Lola" : czcams.com/play/PLvzaW1c7S5hQcox9CjaJWA7QKTYXw9Zn2.html ⚪Want to connect? facebook.com/findinglolafilm/ 🟢Grab your own Ancestry DNA test now*! : amzn.to/3UxGKJx 2
I got to tour the house on a trip with other Cherokees. I was lucky enough that the timing allowed for us to tour the slave quarters as well, which helped contextualize the nuance in our history, and let me tell you, the wax statues were absolutely eerie.
I’m glad you got to tour Vann House. I grew up and have lived most of my life in the area. I’ve only recently began researching my Cherokee ancestry. It would be interesting to travel to Oklahoma to see where family settled after the removal.
Native Americans are NOT black though. He is a Cherokee man with very identifiable European roots, that is the answer that elevated his status. Some Native Americans were also known for capturing slaves and returning them to their owners. There was also a law established across first nation tribes to remove all tribesmen who are mixed with black, however many Natives are mixed with white and even black but they removed those who appeared more black than Native.
I don't know a about elevated his status 😊 white washing has to go to the back of the bus, the Black moors brought so much to Europe 🌍! That $5 Indian has to be Cooper color or blue black, Yes Hollywood gave us all a black eye! ! There is no history of the white Indians, time for justice
@@chevalierdenoir754 some black were in the Americans long before Columbus arrived south America Mexico the Olmec! Heads if you on a mission to display all black were slaves! Not going to work today!
@@chevalierdenoir754 true but with the stigma of darker skin could darker indigenous people could have been labeled black and enslaved based off skin I mean natives were the first slaves in the Americas
As a matter of fact, Nancy Ward, a Native American woman was the first member of her Tribe to own an African slave. Nancy would eventually become a wealthy plantation owner, growing corn and cotton. In addition to producing corn and cotton, she owned dairy cows. Because of this, Nancy Ward kept traveling to slave markets to purchase more African slaves to provide the labor required for her plantation.
Nancy is my 9th great grandmother and this guy John Joseph and his wife chistiana otter lifter are my 7th great grand parents on a different line . Both in my moms side one from her dads and one from her moms…. I know Nancy did sue to cattle and stuff just so she could survive and try to keep her land…
I cant argue with that side of it! I think he did a lot of good for his Cherokee people during the time of Indian Removal/ Trail of tears, which was also evil and selfish, which is why he's a little bit of both to me
Do not judge people from other era. How we the today people judge people who lived hundreds years ago or worst centuries. Do you will judge Julius Cesar , Shaka Sulo a African warrior in today South Africa who use buried alive children. The mongos who invade the Middle East Egyptian who capture what is Sudan Nubias to build the pyramids and the Hebrew. Please do yourself a favor stop living centuries ago and live now. You will be more 😊
I have family ancestry that is traced back to a Chief McIntosh of the Creek nation originally from Georgia. He was executed by the Creek nation for selling land to the USA behind the leaderships back. The McIntosh family moved to Oklahoma (Indian Territory) and established the Creek Nation there My 4x Great Grand Father was captured from Africa (Nigeria) and eventually was named Rienty McIntosh. He ended up in Creek Nation. A child or somebody related to him established the Reinty Settlement. My g g grandmother was a Creek Nation Freedman (woman) and was listed on the tribal roll. Her descendants were supposed to get land. Of course we got shafted. You would definitely be fascinated if you researched this Man.
The owner of my company refurbished the McIntosh Hotel back to it's originality in Indian Springs Ga. and I've been to his grave site close to the Chattahoochee River and his house where he was killed by the Red Sticks for violating the Blood Oath giving all that land to the US Gov't. Sounds like your Greater Gr Grand family would hold a lot of history worth even more investigation to parallel that historical period.
Correct and it was one of the main things they were required to do in order to appease the civilization process that was initiated before Joseph Vann Rich Joes lifetime so he was by law at one point made to own slaves or not be considered civilized enough for being a property owner ie they would cease his holdings otherwise
It’s crazy that I randomly came across this video because recently I did a DNA test and looked up my ancestry and found out he’s in my family tree through my mother. This is so interesting.
Likewise I am direct lineal descendant of Vann Cherokee and came across a wealth of information this video covered portions of but is literally the tip of the iceberg as it were
You have hit the nail on the head in this video. I have found a similar situation in my own ancestry. Not as prosperous as this person but slave holding NA/ European ancestors. They lost their land. Then acquired land grants in Mississippi by fighting in the Battle of New Orleans. I’m so glad you have shined a light on the complexity of this subject. Sometimes I have to step away from the research because my modern mind just can’t comprehend what life was like during this period of history.
I live in Missouri, not far from the Oklahoma border. I have met people who tell me they are Cherokee. I don't know exactly what they mean as I wouldn't know except for their self-description. But I find it ironic that these people are devout evangelical Protestants. They don't seem to question how they ended up Christian and even try to bring the gospel to Jews and other non-believers.
He was a savage, viscous and barbaric slave owner. Nothing complex about it. Why have sympathy for someone who was exploited by Europeans on one hand yet adapted their immoral ways on the other hand? Pity for oppressors is reprehensible in and of itself. The book Black Slaves, Red Masters speaks on the subject of Natives who were slave masters. Specifically the Choctaw and Chickasaw. Great channel by the way.
I agree about the slavery side. 100%. The complexity to me is that he was a hero to the Cherokee in many regards during the time of the indian removal and the trail of tears. They were a strong Cherokee family. So maybe to the Cherokee, he did well by them during a very evil time that THEY experienced. But it does not negate slavery.
@@nytn for me I think it's odd in the way that such an evil was embraced and was a measure of success. The white validation over morals was sad. He felt oppressed because he could no longer move similar to a white elitist.
@@nytn and even though I can understand how some could view him in a positive light to an extent, I still feel like his motivations were still at the expense of other people
@@nytn he was a hero to his people. But I also question his lineage as Indigenous. There was a saying of $"5.00 Indians" which were simply white people who paid to be added to the Daw Roll *probably mispelled...when their were benefits given to Natives that white people participated in.
Thank you again for discussion of this difficult subject. To further the discussion of thinking outside of the racial and ethnic boxes that were forced upon us, the assumption that all "blacks" are of African descent, thus African-American is not correct. It may true for some but not for all. When the colonizers came here their reports of the people they saw were dark skinned, "not unlike the Ethiopians". As reported by Verrazano in 1524 in the area now called North Carolina and up to what is now NY and New England. The colonizers from Spain and Portugal were described as half Moors. So-called blacks (I prefer the term Muur) have been found as aboriginal to all continents not just Africa. As you noted, it is indeed very complicated attempt uncover our true heritage as human beings. Please keep up good and interesting work.
All ancestors of modern African Americans (AKA American blacks) are the descendants of Enslaved Africans brought to the Americas from Africa during the triangular trade starting in 1501 and ending in 1888 for the express purpose of toiling as chattel. There is not a single shred of evidence to support any other origin. Most of what you wrote is utter fantasy. Totally unsupported by the historical evidence which is massive regarding this issue. Few things are as well documented both by Europeans, and Africans as the West Africa to the Americas slave trade, and all DNA evidence to date regarding African Americans support the African slave trade origin. All but a handful of African Americans can trace their DNA to existing African tribes. Those that can't, can be traced to African tribes that became extinct due to the slave trade. Yet this myth persists.
I am a documented descendant of slaves keep by the Choctaw. The US basically told them, they’re yours now. You have to claim them as yours. They didn’t. Leaves my legacy as a people without a nation. 😢
I toured his house. There is also the remains of a Cherokee village within 30 miles of it that can also be toured as a museum. It is off interstate 75 between Atlanta and Chattanooga.
That's awesome that you know who he is. And yes, the house can be toured still! Thank you for mentioning it, it's pretty close to me here in Nashville.
That's New Echota, I've been all over it as well and toured the Vann House which was known as Diamond Hill the crown of the Cherokee Nation before removal. Btw artifacts are still being inadvertantly found at Echota. Chief Crazy James Vann is one of my Greater Great Gr fathers and one of his sons Chief Rich Joe is one of my uncles so I know a lot of him and Diamond Hill. This was a great piece you put together nytn, throughly enjoyed seeing this. For me it was family history on YT of all places.
"Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these peoples remaining in the land .....to serve as slave labor..." New International Version 1 Kings 9 21. Is King Solomon from the Bible evil?
@@stephenfisher3721 If you read a Bible with the NAME: "KING "JAMES "BIBLE".... YOU ARE SERVING A MAN = ENGLISH KING: THAT "Bible" is Not the REAL Bible.... Remember that! 😶🌫️
If you read the book Black Slaveowners: Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860, it discusses how some Free Mulattos who were Slaveowners paid courts large sums of money to have their racial designation changed to White. Some just simply used their light skin and European features to slip across the color line in order to pass for White. Some of the people and their families the book mentioned were Gideon Gibson Sr and Jr, Elijah Bass, James Pendarvis, and Elias W. Garden. Gideon was in fact married to a White Woman and his son (who is a Quadroon) did the same, as did Elijah Bass and James Pendarvis.
In many cases, "free black former slaves owned slaves" that were part of their family so it was often done for familial reasons. Remember, family members were sold as "slaves."
You cannot judge people of history by the values and mores of today. Nor can you judge people of one culture by the standards of another culture. It’s ludicrous at best and the epitome of stupidity at worst.
I have to disagree everyone knew that slavery was terrible. They did it only to make money.. They knew those slaves were people. Look at President Jefferson as an example.
Bullshit. Not only CAN I judge, but I WILL judge these people to be evil to the core. Slavery is evil no matter what the circumstances. Owning other human beings is ALWAYS immoral.
That's a ridiculous and relativistic position to take. According to your logic, we can have no view on 'witch-burnings' in medieval Europe, because that was the standard and the values of that time. It was acceptable to persecute and kill women accused of witchcraft, so it was wrong to condemn them!
In human relations values and morals travel the ages effortlessly. For anyone today to think that they adjust and readjust over periods is not only of a crescendoing ludicrous mind but also epitomizes stupidity at its highest peak.
@ Howard It was that common at all until the early 1900's because the USA Government allowed European to buy citizenship for $5.00 and list themselves as a tribal member to have 💯% control of the money allocated for the removal of Indigenous people. That when the racism came in with the Dawes rolls by blood when most of these people weren't mixed Indigenous at all but were put in power to control wealth then the poor European that was given a economic floor on the reservation and off were kick in the butt by the Government for claiming Indigenous roots because the Government had an interest in the Area where they were.
Wow I really love this episode! It IS a fascinating look at how power played a role in this man's life - pursued by him, others and our government. Of course the roots of power are greed and insecurity. This type of bullying has probably been happening since cave men fought over fertile hunting grounds, and is still happening but in social media and on a global scale now. We still haven't learned to get along with each other. Sad.
OSIO - That's James son, I'm from his sister Mary Taylor. Old wild Chief James...think I inherited some of that from him. Family took allotments with the Creeks, whom I'm enrolled with. Thanks for sharing.
As a Professor, I teach this hidden history to my college students because it is essential to understand that you can simultaneously be a victim and a villain. But, also, history is not as white and black as we are taught in public schools.
Colonel Ethan Allen Hitchcock met Vann in the Cherokee Nation and described him as follows: “Mr. Vann the President of the Committee is 45 years of age, came to this country 10 or fifteen years ago; dresses in a frock overcoat, wears a kerchief in a turban form on his head, vest, pants, and boots, speaks perfect English and is a clear minded sensible man“
You should look up the Cherokee Chief Stand Watie. He was the highest ranking Indian officer of either side during the Civil War. He was a Major General in the Confederate army and the last Confederate general to surrender. After the war, the US government refused to acknowledge him as the chief of the Cherokee because of that. Also, I don’t believe the narrative about Georgians being hostile to the Cherokee. I’m sure there were some. However, Stand Watie did not trust the US government but he did trust the Confederate government at least enough to form an army primarily made up of Indians to fight for the Confederacy, which is quite a bit.
You have heard of the trail of tears have you not. If forcing people off their land, giving them blankets infected with smallpox, and making them walk west doesn't seem hostile to you then, your belief structure is different from most. The Cherokee fought with the confederacy because the tribe's aristocracy were major slaveholders and they did not want to give up enslaving black people and the profit that enslaving black people provided them. Just like the white southern aristocracy. Period end of the story. Trust had nothing to do with it, they trusted that the confederacy would maintain slavery and that Lincoln wanted to end the practice. They fought for their own self-interest.
"Also, I don’t believe the narrative about Georgians being hostile to the Cherokee." Georgia made up a state lottery that forced the Cherokee off of their own land in northern Georgia after gold was found in Dahlonega , so the land would be given to white settlers. How is that not hostile?
Hello! I think the elephant in the room was president Jackson. In my estimation he was a monster. It seems that no one else cared that Mr. Van was Cherokee, since he was able to amass 300 slaves. And that is my beef with him and every slave holder. If he or anyone else needed workers, they should have paid them. No society will thrive when one group gets to abuse another. Otherwise I appreciate his resourcefulness and business sense and applaud him for that. Meanwhile, along comes president Jackson, And oh no! You thriving Cherokee peoples need to leave to make room for the settlers. And shame on the greedy settlers. If there wasn't anymore room, go further on. But the real irony about the Cherokee forced migration is that once in Oklahoma, some of them struck black gold, and became millionaires!
And today I enjoy the air and if just one of my thousands of ancestors had been killed I wouldn’t be here today to enjoy my life. Be thankful for the sufferings of the past that give you this day.
This is a fascinating story. Have you seen this version on CZcams, which appears to have been published by the GA Parks Dept? Their take on it is that he lost his GA property due to alcoholism! ?? There's no discussion of the Trail of Tears. I trust your research rather than theirs.
No, I have not! I'll look it up. Thank you for the suggestion. I like hearing the way history is presented by different folks....makes sense that they would suggest something other than "we took it"
I've never heard of that version or that the Parks Dept said anything about it so I'll look that up too, glad you posted this. I've taken a tour of the house and it was said the reason Chief Rich Joe lost everything and had to move was he'd hired a white man to work which was against the law. The GA Guard was then sent in to close it down and send them all to OK. Btw, when the guard was sent in they threw torch's through the windows and doors and one of the high lights for me was to see there is still a burned indention in one of the steps from a torch. I'm a history buff and things like that show a lot.
thank you! Sharing is so appreciated, the more we talk about these things, I hope the more we can love each other and stop creating little boxes for "the other guys"
And other states as well. The Wyandot used to trade/barter them for goods with other tribes and settlers. The Mingo and Catawba were known to track runaways for reward. There's a lot of history of Native Indian people the general public have no idea of.
There were no tribes in Florida that owned slaves as in plantation racial chattel slavery. If you're referring to the Seminiole, it wasn't until the Seminole were forced on the removal that some of them in Oklahoma started having plantations. If youre talking about "owning slaves" generically, like having a prisoner of war, then maybe the original Florida indians did that but we don't know for sure. i don't know what tribes in Lousiana would have either.
See also John Alden . It's a story about a merciless indiun dynasty that was overthrown by an equally merciless white man who ruled over them with tyranny but was remembered and beloved because of that tribes traditions
Cherokees were the largest group of slave owners in the south before they got moved off the land. The other natives feared them because they were known slavers before European whites.
I have some old documents that shows what the state of Louisiana does to mulattos and the political corruption back in the 1990’s, it was going strong then, just like the modern politics, everything is swept or ignored
It's frequent that people are victims and perpetrators at the same time. However, within a slaveholding society, it's not necessarily villainy to own slaves oneself. Particularly if you are a kind person, you should have as many of them as you can afford, and never sell one since you don't want your slaves to fall in the hands of sadists. One might object that you can and should give freedom to your slaves but even this is not always possible; in some cases, the freed people wouldn't have the possibility to maintain themselves because no one wants them as free, payed workers, in some cases even laws make it hard for a slaveowner to free his own slaves.
You can free your slaves and pay them to work for you. After providong you with free labor for decades, you owe them that much. If you can't afford to hire all of them, you can hire some of them. Incidentally, many Indians in the Southeastern United States have European blood. We know this because many of them look completely White. Actually some of them argue that some full-blooded Indians are not Indians because they are too dark. We also find that many of these White Indians list themselves as White on all of their government documents. Perhaps some of them are descendants of the $5 Indians who really were White people. They paid $5 to unscrupulous Indian agents-- who worked for the federal government---to give them identification claiming they were Indians so they could get free government land set aside for real Indians.
I knew this was about the Vann family. My ancestors are Joseph Vann and his daughter Keziah Vann. Keziah was a half brother to James Vann. There is a debate as to wether Keziah was Cherokee or Choctaw. To this day i dont know. It would be half either or since Joseph was said to be scottish?
Slavery is just labor no matter if voluntary or involuntary. Think work and prison were they have you work for them for free or very very low wages or credit. Work as well but you agree to the contract labor
He was Cherokee with European ancestry. Therein lies the problem. He was NOT Cherokee what we are seeing is a European mixture leading to his stance during the time. 🤷🏾♀️
The Cherokee were one of the " civilized " tribes meaning as a tribe, they adopted white European ways of living and a good deal of intermarriage with whites. As a tribe, they were large-scale slave owners. Most of them took their slaves with them on the trail of tears when they were removed from the land and driven west.
O are finding fault are turning a "blind eye" to there Transgressions. A very dear black man that I worked with was killed in a black on black crime. Two precious little black children were killed in drive by shootings.
She's very much allowed to see the issue as complex. Now we don't have to, but she can! It's her right. I don't see as much complexity in this, it's not personal to me and I don't feel emotional connection to this man. That said, history is not for giving out sympathies but for understanding our world.
Vann pharaoh had slaves ..shipped many many slaves on boats during his removal...transatlantic slave boats....he was cherokee and own slaves...1866 treaty..5 ùncivilized were to free slaves...the 5 tribes fought against union....the 5 tribes were confederate...and all had slaves...No sympathy here
That’s the problem with having Caucasians today pay reparations to Black ppl today. It wasn’t just Caucasians in America who owned African slaves. Black ppl in both Africa and the Caribbean and America owned other black ppl as slaves plus indigenous ppls owned other indigenous ppls as well as black ppl as slaves. No culture has never had slavery. As a Jew my ancestors were given strict codes to live by in Torah that were radically progressive in regards to the treatment of slaves. A Jew in ancient Israel couldn’t beat his slave to death and if he did he would be executed for murder. If a Jew seriously injured his slave then the slave could go free. The same Torah applied to both Jews and the goyim who lived in ancient Israel so the same laws in Torah against rape also meant a Jew couldn’t rape his slave or commit adultery with a married enslaved woman. Slaves in Ancient Israel were entitled to rest on Shabbat every week just like Jews were commanded to. In ancient times if one had to be a slave then the best place one could be enslaved was in Ancient Israel to an observant Jew
@Libertarian1982 I see you have a problem with talking out of your ass, like these other colorblind/alt-right racists do. Your being jewish means nothing. " It wasn’t just Caucasians in America who owned African slaves." it mostly was. When you look at Joseph Vann and even when you look at the Creoles, they were all privileged mixed white people. ". Black ppl in both Africa and the Caribbean" That has jack shit to do with the United States. Also like so many of these other colorblind/alt-right idiots, you seem to have this problem where you conflate "slavery period" with the systemic racial chattel permanent hereditary plantation slavery, and you go "see? everyone had slavery" when you know damn well "slavery" in other parts of the world included shit like working off a debt or being a prisoner or war for a set time then being let go. You didn't spend your whole life on a plantation and have your great great grandchildren also on a plantation for their whole lives based on their race. Next time don't be an idiot, okay?
Didn't Jews get reparations though? Also the blacks that owned slaves in the USA, were secretly setting them free under the disguise of "slave master" 🤔
Was Joseph Vann a Cherokee hero or a slave-owning villain? How do we navigate complexity in history?
🟢Send me a coffee!: ko-fi.com/nytn13#linkModal
⚪Support more storytelling and get behind the scenes videos: click the "Join" button.
🟢Watch the docu-series "Finding Lola" : czcams.com/play/PLvzaW1c7S5hQcox9CjaJWA7QKTYXw9Zn2.html
⚪Want to connect? facebook.com/findinglolafilm/
🟢Grab your own Ancestry DNA test now*! : amzn.to/3UxGKJx
2
Both.
Both. He left a bittersweet legacy. One thing I liked about your video. Is how non bias you were. Most people teaching history, can't do that.
@@littlemisssunshine4213 Bittersweet is the exact word for most of our heroes of history. Thank you for your kind words:)
@@nytn No problem, I just found your channel today. I was like omg she knows how to talk about the good and the bad.
@@littlemisssunshine4213 you get me!☺
I got to tour the house on a trip with other Cherokees. I was lucky enough that the timing allowed for us to tour the slave quarters as well, which helped contextualize the nuance in our history, and let me tell you, the wax statues were absolutely eerie.
I’m glad you got to tour Vann House. I grew up and have lived most of my life in the area. I’ve only recently began researching my Cherokee ancestry. It would be interesting to travel to Oklahoma to see where family settled after the removal.
I appreciate your CZcams channel and your devotion to exploring the complex history of race relations.
That means so much, thank you
@@nytn You're welcome.
Native Americans are NOT black though. He is a Cherokee man with very identifiable European roots, that is the answer that elevated his status. Some Native Americans were also known for capturing slaves and returning them to their owners. There was also a law established across first nation tribes to remove all tribesmen who are mixed with black, however many Natives are mixed with white and even black but they removed those who appeared more black than Native.
The real native Americans Indians are black and some were blue black! The Black Americans
@@stonepony2285 the term black strictly refers to those who primarily descend from the various indigenous black populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.
I don't know a about elevated his status 😊 white washing has to go to the back of the bus, the Black moors brought so much to Europe 🌍! That $5 Indian has to be Cooper color or blue black, Yes Hollywood gave us all a black eye! ! There is no history of the white Indians, time for justice
@@chevalierdenoir754 some black were in the Americans long before Columbus arrived south America Mexico the Olmec! Heads if you on a mission to display all black were slaves! Not going to work today!
@@chevalierdenoir754 true but with the stigma of darker skin could darker indigenous people could have been labeled black and enslaved based off skin
I mean natives were the first slaves in the Americas
I found this information to be extremely constructive. Thank you for taking the time to create this content.
thank you for being here and learning with me while I learn
As a matter of fact, Nancy Ward, a Native American woman was the first member of her Tribe to own an African slave. Nancy would eventually become a wealthy plantation owner, growing corn and cotton. In addition to producing corn and cotton, she owned dairy cows. Because of this, Nancy Ward kept traveling to slave markets to purchase more African slaves to provide the labor required for her plantation.
She also married a white guy too.
If Nancy Ward was the first how was there a Cherokee Headman named Slave-Catcher in Henry Timberlakes writings? 🚩
Nancy was my 10th Grandmother, her my grandfather fought the Creeks...funny enough I'm enrolled with the Creeks. Small world.
Nancy is my 9th great grandmother and this guy John Joseph and his wife chistiana otter lifter are my 7th great grand parents on a different line . Both in my moms side one from her dads and one from her moms…. I know Nancy did sue to cattle and stuff just so she could survive and try to keep her land…
Did that headman own slaves? There is a difference between slave owners and slave catchers.
If he owned anyone...he was evil...evil and selfish...drops the 🎤
I cant argue with that side of it! I think he did a lot of good for his Cherokee people during the time of Indian Removal/ Trail of tears, which was also evil and selfish, which is why he's a little bit of both to me
Do not judge people from other era. How we the today people judge people who lived hundreds years ago or worst centuries. Do you will judge Julius Cesar , Shaka Sulo a African warrior in today South Africa who use buried alive children. The mongos who invade the Middle East Egyptian who capture what is Sudan Nubias to build the pyramids and the Hebrew. Please do yourself a favor stop living centuries ago and live now. You will be more 😊
@@nytn The indians on the trail of tears had black slaves also.
I have family ancestry that is traced back to a Chief McIntosh of the Creek nation originally from Georgia. He was executed by the Creek nation for selling land to the USA behind the leaderships back. The McIntosh family moved to Oklahoma (Indian Territory) and established the Creek Nation there My 4x Great Grand Father was captured from Africa (Nigeria) and eventually was named Rienty McIntosh. He ended up in Creek Nation. A child or somebody related to him established the Reinty Settlement. My g g grandmother was a Creek Nation Freedman (woman) and was listed on the tribal roll. Her descendants were supposed to get land. Of course we got shafted. You would definitely be fascinated if you researched this Man.
The owner of my company refurbished the McIntosh Hotel back to it's originality in Indian Springs Ga. and I've been to his grave site close to the Chattahoochee River and his house where he was killed by the Red Sticks for violating the Blood Oath giving all that land to the US Gov't. Sounds like your Greater Gr Grand family would hold a lot of history worth even more investigation to parallel that historical period.
I wonder if you trace your family back to the Scots who settled in McIntosh County, GA, as well.
What an interesting tale of contradictions and man's ability to make major changes in the lives of others based on nuances.
TFS, Danielle. ❤
The main provision for the Civilized Tribes prior to moving to Oklahoma was to continue their status as slave owners.
Correct and it was one of the main things they were required to do in order to appease the civilization process that was initiated before Joseph Vann Rich Joes lifetime so he was by law at one point made to own slaves or not be considered civilized enough for being a property owner ie they would cease his holdings otherwise
It’s crazy that I randomly came across this video because recently I did a DNA test and looked up my ancestry and found out he’s in my family tree through my mother. This is so interesting.
Likewise I am direct lineal descendant of Vann Cherokee and came across a wealth of information this video covered portions of but is literally the tip of the iceberg as it were
You have hit the nail on the head in this video.
I have found a similar situation in my own ancestry. Not as prosperous as this person but slave holding NA/ European ancestors. They lost their land. Then acquired land grants in Mississippi by fighting in the Battle of New Orleans. I’m so glad you have shined a light on the complexity of this subject. Sometimes I have to step away from the research because my modern mind just can’t comprehend what life was like during this period of history.
Whew I get this!
I live in Missouri, not far from the Oklahoma border. I have met people who tell me they are Cherokee. I don't know exactly what they mean as I wouldn't know except for their self-description. But I find it ironic that these people are devout evangelical Protestants. They don't seem to question how they ended up Christian and even try to bring the gospel to Jews and other non-believers.
Well Christianity, Buddhism, Islam is not actually based on race
I love your channel. You cover the complex nuances of American history so well. ❤
He was a savage, viscous and barbaric slave owner. Nothing complex about it. Why have sympathy for someone who was exploited by Europeans on one hand yet adapted their immoral ways on the other hand? Pity for oppressors is reprehensible in and of itself. The book Black Slaves, Red Masters speaks on the subject of Natives who were slave masters. Specifically the Choctaw and Chickasaw. Great channel by the way.
I agree about the slavery side. 100%. The complexity to me is that he was a hero to the Cherokee in many regards during the time of the indian removal and the trail of tears. They were a strong Cherokee family. So maybe to the Cherokee, he did well by them during a very evil time that THEY experienced. But it does not negate slavery.
Purchasing that book right now.
same!
I purchased that book back in 2018.
Idk. I feel like him owning 200 slaves makes things pretty clear to me and not complex.
I mostly agree, except he did a lot for the Cherokee people during the time of Indian removal. Does that make him a hero there? I dont know.
@@nytn for me I think it's odd in the way that such an evil was embraced and was a measure of success. The white validation over morals was sad. He felt oppressed because he could no longer move similar to a white elitist.
@@nytn and even though I can understand how some could view him in a positive light to an extent, I still feel like his motivations were still at the expense of other people
@@mickey10jb80 absolutely agree
@@nytn he was a hero to his people. But I also question his lineage as Indigenous. There was a saying of $"5.00 Indians" which were simply white people who paid to be added to the Daw Roll *probably mispelled...when their were benefits given to Natives that white people participated in.
Thank you again for discussion of this difficult subject. To further the discussion of thinking outside of the racial and ethnic boxes that were forced upon us, the assumption that all "blacks" are of African descent, thus African-American is not correct. It may true for some but not for all. When the colonizers came here their reports of the people they saw were dark skinned, "not unlike the Ethiopians". As reported by Verrazano in 1524 in the area now called North Carolina and up to what is now NY and New England. The colonizers from Spain and Portugal were described as half Moors. So-called blacks (I prefer the term Muur) have been found as aboriginal to all continents not just Africa. As you noted, it is indeed very complicated attempt uncover our true heritage as human beings. Please keep up good and interesting work.
All ancestors of modern African Americans (AKA American blacks) are the descendants of Enslaved Africans brought to the Americas from Africa during the triangular trade starting in 1501 and ending in 1888 for the express purpose of toiling as chattel. There is not a single shred of evidence to support any other origin. Most of what you wrote is utter fantasy. Totally unsupported by the historical evidence which is massive regarding this issue. Few things are as well documented both by Europeans, and Africans as the West Africa to the Americas slave trade, and all DNA evidence to date regarding African Americans support the African slave trade origin. All but a handful of African Americans can trace their DNA to existing African tribes. Those that can't, can be traced to African tribes that became extinct due to the slave trade. Yet this myth persists.
I am a documented descendant of slaves keep by the Choctaw. The US basically told them, they’re yours now. You have to claim them as yours. They didn’t. Leaves my legacy as a people without a nation. 😢
Love it. I am really appreciating your research.
The so called "Five Civilized Tribes" via the "Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee Creek; and the Seminole" Enslaved* Black People. Sister H.D.B.3
I am a relative of James and Joseph. Very nice to see this story told.
I toured his house. There is also the remains of a Cherokee village within 30 miles of it that can also be toured as a museum. It is off interstate 75 between Atlanta and Chattanooga.
That's awesome that you know who he is. And yes, the house can be toured still! Thank you for mentioning it, it's pretty close to me here in Nashville.
That's New Echota, I've been all over it as well and toured the Vann House which was known as Diamond Hill the crown of the Cherokee Nation before removal. Btw artifacts are still being inadvertantly found at Echota. Chief Crazy James Vann is one of my Greater Great Gr fathers and one of his sons Chief Rich Joe is one of my uncles so I know a lot of him and Diamond Hill.
This was a great piece you put together nytn, throughly enjoyed seeing this. For me it was family history on YT of all places.
@@josephstorm6093 Thats incredible! Your family has a rich, fascinating story. I couldnt believe it was all new history to me.
The Cherokee nation is very discriminatory.
Any slave owner is Evil 😈!
Facts. There is no in-between. Over 200 enslaved people. A wicked, evil, viscous and barbaric monster.
"Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these peoples remaining in the land .....to serve as slave labor..." New International Version 1 Kings 9 21. Is King Solomon from the Bible evil?
@@stephenfisher3721 yes stealing labor from others is Evil 😈
@@stephenfisher3721
If you read a Bible with the NAME: "KING "JAMES "BIBLE".... YOU ARE SERVING A MAN = ENGLISH KING: THAT "Bible" is Not the REAL Bible.... Remember that! 😶🌫️
Absolutely! 💯
If you read the book Black Slaveowners: Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860, it discusses how some Free Mulattos who were Slaveowners paid courts large sums of money to have their racial designation changed to White. Some just simply used their light skin and European features to slip across the color line in order to pass for White. Some of the people and their families the book mentioned were Gideon Gibson Sr and Jr, Elijah Bass, James Pendarvis, and Elias W. Garden. Gideon was in fact married to a White Woman and his son (who is a Quadroon) did the same, as did Elijah Bass and James Pendarvis.
There were also free black former slaves who owned slaves.
In many cases, "free black former slaves owned slaves" that were part of their family so it was often done for familial reasons. Remember, family members were sold as "slaves."
Always trying to twist the truth
You cannot judge people of history by the values and mores of today. Nor can you judge people of one culture by the standards of another culture. It’s ludicrous at best and the epitome of stupidity at worst.
I have to disagree everyone knew that slavery was terrible. They did it only to make money.. They knew those slaves were people. Look at President Jefferson as an example.
You can judge
Bullshit. Not only CAN I judge, but I WILL judge these people to be evil to the core. Slavery is evil no matter what the circumstances. Owning other human beings is ALWAYS immoral.
That's a ridiculous and relativistic position to take. According to your logic, we can have no view on 'witch-burnings' in medieval Europe, because that was the standard and the values of that time. It was acceptable to persecute and kill women accused of witchcraft, so it was wrong to condemn them!
In human relations values and morals travel the ages effortlessly. For anyone today to think that they adjust and readjust over periods is not only of a crescendoing ludicrous mind but also epitomizes stupidity at its highest peak.
A person can be a villain and a victim at the same time.This man certainly suffered prejudice from white people,but he was a slave owner.
@ Howard It was that common at all until the early 1900's because the USA Government allowed European to buy citizenship for $5.00 and list themselves as a tribal member to have 💯% control of the money allocated for the removal of Indigenous people. That when the racism came in with the Dawes rolls by blood when most of these people weren't mixed Indigenous at all but were put in power to control wealth then the poor European that was given a economic floor on the reservation and off were kick in the butt by the Government for claiming Indigenous roots because the Government had an interest in the Area where they were.
Wow I really love this episode! It IS a fascinating look at how power played a role in this man's life - pursued by him, others and our government. Of course the roots of power are greed and insecurity. This type of bullying has probably been happening since cave men fought over fertile hunting grounds, and is still happening but in social media and on a global scale now. We still haven't learned to get along with each other. Sad.
OSIO - That's James son, I'm from his sister Mary Taylor. Old wild Chief James...think I inherited some of that from him. Family took allotments with the Creeks, whom I'm enrolled with. Thanks for sharing.
I’m convinced the Scottish and Irish fur traders had brochures to come to America and take Indigenous woman in North America and assimilate into them
I appreciate what you do.
Kimberly, thank you so much
All he had to do was free them after 14 years of service. I'm glad he tried to come to his senses , but it sounds like he was murdered.
He witnessed his father be assassinated at the age of 12
As a Professor, I teach this hidden history to my college students because it is essential to understand that you can simultaneously be a victim and a villain. But, also, history is not as white and black as we are taught in public schools.
Colonel Ethan Allen Hitchcock met Vann in the Cherokee Nation and described him as follows:
“Mr. Vann the President of the Committee is
45 years of age, came to this country 10 or fifteen years ago; dresses in a frock overcoat, wears a kerchief in a turban form on his head, vest, pants, and boots, speaks perfect English and is a clear minded sensible man“
You should look up the Cherokee Chief Stand Watie. He was the highest ranking Indian officer of either side during the Civil War. He was a Major General in the Confederate army and the last Confederate general to surrender. After the war, the US government refused to acknowledge him as the chief of the Cherokee because of that.
Also, I don’t believe the narrative about Georgians being hostile to the Cherokee. I’m sure there were some. However, Stand Watie did not trust the US government but he did trust the Confederate government at least enough to form an army primarily made up of Indians to fight for the Confederacy, which is quite a bit.
You have heard of the trail of tears have you not. If forcing people off their land, giving them blankets infected with smallpox, and making them walk west doesn't seem hostile to you then, your belief structure is different from most. The Cherokee fought with the confederacy because the tribe's aristocracy were major slaveholders and they did not want to give up enslaving black people and the profit that enslaving black people provided them. Just like the white southern aristocracy. Period end of the story. Trust had nothing to do with it, they trusted that the confederacy would maintain slavery and that Lincoln wanted to end the practice. They fought for their own self-interest.
"Also, I don’t believe the narrative about Georgians being hostile to the Cherokee." Georgia made up a state lottery that forced the Cherokee off of their own land in northern Georgia after gold was found in Dahlonega , so the land would be given to white settlers. How is that not hostile?
Hello! I think the elephant in the room was president Jackson. In my estimation he was a monster.
It seems that no one else cared that Mr. Van was Cherokee, since he was able to amass 300 slaves.
And that is my beef with him and every slave holder. If he or anyone else needed workers, they should have paid them. No society will thrive when one group gets to abuse another.
Otherwise I appreciate his resourcefulness and business sense and applaud him for that.
Meanwhile, along comes president Jackson, And oh no! You thriving Cherokee peoples need to leave to make room for the settlers. And shame on the greedy settlers. If there wasn't anymore room, go further on.
But the real irony about the Cherokee forced migration is that once in Oklahoma, some of them struck black gold, and became millionaires!
And today I enjoy the air and if just one of my thousands of ancestors had been killed I wouldn’t be here today to enjoy my life.
Be thankful for the sufferings of the past that give you this day.
This is a fascinating story. Have you seen this version on CZcams, which appears to have been published by the GA Parks Dept? Their take on it is that he lost his GA property due to alcoholism! ?? There's no discussion of the Trail of Tears. I trust your research rather than theirs.
czcams.com/video/BH7q_ETh-_o/video.html
No, I have not! I'll look it up. Thank you for the suggestion. I like hearing the way history is presented by different folks....makes sense that they would suggest something other than "we took it"
I've never heard of that version or that the Parks Dept said anything about it so I'll look that up too, glad you posted this. I've taken a tour of the house and it was said the reason Chief Rich Joe lost everything and had to move was he'd hired a white man to work which was against the law. The GA Guard was then sent in to close it down and send them all to OK. Btw, when the guard was sent in they threw torch's through the windows and doors and one of the high lights for me was to see there is still a burned indention in one of the steps from a torch. I'm a history buff and things like that show a lot.
Liked and shared😊
thank you! Sharing is so appreciated, the more we talk about these things, I hope the more we can love each other and stop creating little boxes for "the other guys"
Maybe I assume too much, but I thought it was common knowledge some tribes in Florida, Louisiana and Oklahoma specifically who owned slaves.
And other states as well. The Wyandot used to trade/barter them for goods with other tribes and settlers. The Mingo and Catawba were known to track runaways for reward. There's a lot of history of Native Indian people the general public have no idea of.
There were no tribes in Florida that owned slaves as in plantation racial chattel slavery. If you're referring to the Seminiole, it wasn't until the Seminole were forced on the removal that some of them in Oklahoma started having plantations.
If youre talking about "owning slaves" generically, like having a prisoner of war, then maybe the original Florida indians did that but we don't know for sure.
i don't know what tribes in Lousiana would have either.
RE: The S.S. Lucy Walker - Newspapers originally reported that *David Vann* Capt. of Lucy Walker was killed by the explosion.
Agreed. [with you final thoughts].
Oh my gosh' this is ridiculous...the truth shall be told!....
See also John Alden . It's a story about a merciless indiun dynasty that was overthrown by an equally merciless white man who ruled over them with tyranny but was remembered and beloved because of that tribes traditions
Cherokees were the largest group of slave owners in the south before they got moved off the land. The other natives feared them because they were known slavers before European whites.
Great video. What were the names of his wives or any slaves?
I have some old documents that shows what the state of Louisiana does to mulattos and the political corruption back in the 1990’s, it was going strong then, just like the modern politics, everything is swept or ignored
Yes, Once heard that it was 40 percent of the african american race back then.
He’s my 7th great Grandfather…I also descend from the Watie family on another side so lots of um… interesting history coming from my ancestors 😭
It's frequent that people are victims and perpetrators at the same time.
However, within a slaveholding society, it's not necessarily villainy to own slaves oneself. Particularly if you are a kind person, you should have as many of them as you can afford, and never sell one since you don't want your slaves to fall in the hands of sadists.
One might object that you can and should give freedom to your slaves but even this is not always possible; in some cases, the freed people wouldn't have the possibility to maintain themselves because no one wants them as free, payed workers, in some cases even laws make it hard for a slaveowner to free his own slaves.
You can free your slaves and pay them to work for you. After providong you with free labor for decades, you owe them that much. If you can't afford to hire all of them, you can hire some of them. Incidentally, many Indians in the Southeastern United States have European blood. We know this because many of them look completely White. Actually some of them argue that some full-blooded Indians are not Indians because they are too dark. We also find that many of these White Indians list themselves as White on all of their government documents. Perhaps some of them are descendants of the $5 Indians who really were White people. They paid $5 to unscrupulous Indian agents-- who worked for the federal government---to give them identification claiming they were Indians so they could get free government land set aside for real Indians.
I knew this was about the Vann family. My ancestors are Joseph Vann and his daughter Keziah Vann. Keziah was a half brother to James Vann. There is a debate as to wether Keziah was Cherokee or Choctaw. To this day i dont know. It would be half either or since Joseph was said to be scottish?
As far as I know Keziah died in Mississippi around 1850 if memory serves me right.
Keziah was Cherokee. She died in 1849 in Paint Fork, Buncombe county North Carolina
He Had 200 Slaves Working For him , Or Was he trying to protect those people and portray them as Slaves?
What do you research I'm looking for someone that's native American in the 1800
Complexity and contradiction. This characterises our American race relations and genetic heritage. People want it to be simple, but its not
Slavery is just labor no matter if voluntary or involuntary. Think work and prison were they have you work for them for free or very very low wages or credit. Work as well but you agree to the contract labor
1830 indian removal act...trail of tears....the five (uncivilized tribes) had united with the confederate states to uphold slavery....
Should do a research over the word slave and slavery and try using the 1828 Webster dictionary
Have you ever looked up Dane calloway you like his sources so you can check for yourself
Osiyo sister, I m rich Joe Vanns grandson and I carry documents that you need to see 😮
Ultimately is more about "ETHICS," than "Ethnics."
If people would only open their minds they could learn but so many people are stuck in their thinking . My people parish for lack of knowledge.
Great verse!
Just found out chief vann is like my 6 x great grandfather…. Crazy!
I just found I’m a descendant of this guy that’s what brought me here
This so sad, money is the root of all evil 😢.
It really is
I discovered in my ancestry that my ancestors owned slates very disgusting but they did
maybe you have some black relatives if you do a dna test
@@naithngr81-jh2bb I do have ADN a test haven't sent it yet but yes this is very interesting can't wait to see the results
My ancestors.
I plan on doing many more videos on the Cherokee!
He was Cherokee with European ancestry. Therein lies the problem. He was NOT Cherokee what we are seeing is a European mixture leading to his stance during the time. 🤷🏾♀️
A large portion of American blacks have European DNA to varying degrees due to centuries of chattel slavery by whites.
The Cherokee were one of the " civilized " tribes meaning as a tribe, they adopted white European ways of living and a good deal of intermarriage with whites. As a tribe, they were large-scale slave owners. Most of them took their slaves with them on the trail of tears when they were removed from the land and driven west.
O are finding fault are turning a "blind eye" to there Transgressions. A very dear black man that I worked with was killed in a black on black crime. Two precious little black children were killed in drive by shootings.
LOL...'complexity'...LOL...are you kidding the people. Stop it.
She's very much allowed to see the issue as complex. Now we don't have to, but she can! It's her right. I don't see as much complexity in this, it's not personal to me and I don't feel emotional connection to this man. That said, history is not for giving out sympathies but for understanding our world.
🤔
Vann pharaoh had slaves ..shipped many many slaves on boats during his removal...transatlantic slave boats....he was cherokee and own slaves...1866 treaty..5 ùncivilized were to free slaves...the 5 tribes fought against union....the 5 tribes were confederate...and all had slaves...No sympathy here
This is terrible, I heard that the Catholic church had slaves.
5 dollar indians
Sub-Saharan Africans are not native to the Americas. Get a grip.
That’s the problem with having Caucasians today pay reparations to Black ppl today. It wasn’t just Caucasians in America who owned African slaves. Black ppl in both Africa and the Caribbean and America owned other black ppl as slaves plus indigenous ppls owned other indigenous ppls as well as black ppl as slaves. No culture has never had slavery. As a Jew my ancestors were given strict codes to live by in Torah that were radically progressive in regards to the treatment of slaves. A Jew in ancient Israel couldn’t beat his slave to death and if he did he would be executed for murder. If a Jew seriously injured his slave then the slave could go free. The same Torah applied to both Jews and the goyim who lived in ancient Israel so the same laws in Torah against rape also meant a Jew couldn’t rape his slave or commit adultery with a married enslaved woman. Slaves in Ancient Israel were entitled to rest on Shabbat every week just like Jews were commanded to. In ancient times if one had to be a slave then the best place one could be enslaved was in Ancient Israel to an observant Jew
@Libertarian1982 I see you have a problem with talking out of your ass, like these other colorblind/alt-right racists do. Your being jewish means nothing. " It wasn’t just Caucasians in America who owned African slaves." it mostly was. When you look at Joseph Vann and even when you look at the Creoles, they were all privileged mixed white people.
". Black ppl in both Africa and the Caribbean" That has jack shit to do with the United States.
Also like so many of these other colorblind/alt-right idiots, you seem to have this problem where you conflate "slavery period" with the systemic racial chattel permanent hereditary plantation slavery, and you go "see? everyone had slavery" when you know damn well "slavery" in other parts of the world included shit like working off a debt or being a prisoner or war for a set time then being let go. You didn't spend your whole life on a plantation and have your great great grandchildren also on a plantation for their whole lives based on their race. Next time don't be an idiot, okay?
Didn't Jews get reparations though? Also the blacks that owned slaves in the USA, were secretly setting them free under the disguise of "slave master" 🤔