What's Different Between an Entry Level and High End Turntable?
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2024
- Kurt from Pro-Ject Audio takes us through the differences in a mid-range and high-level turntable. The extra features that bring audiophile features to the highest level of vinyl listeners.
In this video we compare the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon - www.project-audio.ca/turntabl... to the 1Xpression Carbon - www.project-audio.ca/turntabl... - Věda a technologie
Me: "I just bought a turntable that costs the same as my mortgage payment."
Record People: "That's a good starter."
Hahahaha yeah I love listening to vinyl records but those people are fuckin nuts. And surprisingly they all seem to be 50+
lol yeah i agree. Morons.
Their money but they are getting ripped off.
I'd love to be able to spend a grand on a turntable, or more, you can spend insane amounts, I've just spent £30 on USB turntable, going to stick a £15 audio Technica cartridge on it, which is more in my price range now
You must really love your music to spend that. It's all relative & steam-powered, bicycle-chain driven or real-time hand-cranked rumbling record player with baked-mud filled hub-cap platter, section of clavicle tonearm & sharpened bone stylus may be the envy of the village somewhere in darkest Africa! Every so often, a lot of my expendable dosh goes on a waited-for & keen to get equipment upgrade of some sort. And It's purely for those priceless times of sitting back & being emotionally or otherwise, moved by the music. & i hate it when people think we own a few records only to listen to our equipment with, ive heard it implied in so many ways & that gets right up my nose when somebody who just buys a £45,000 BMW & similar every 3 implies this to your face with a tone of superiority! ...stuff like "i'm only into the music itself, not the equipment" grrrr🤬 they throw that in your face yet having near-zero to talk about except work & t.v. or their newest car MORONS
@@thespotlightkid4138 lol, I'd struggle to find that amount of vitriol in political discussion in these polarised times of Donald Trump etc, but over a turntable? seriously? you need to get out more!
This guy is set to 33 RPM
I'd even argue 16 2/3
A clear low voice and taking his time .... clear explanation ...
I’d argue 3
Lol!
kurt know his stuff he is very distinct and conscience in his demonstrating's and illustrating's of these turntables. some people have difficultly in in hearing people explain geometry's of audio items. plus Kurt is a hot guy.
Wow. Set the speed to 1.25x and he sounds normal
Hahahahahahaha! Amazing!
Music sounds like video about to explode though
@@bis_cuts2987 you meant 1.5x !! no ?
@@pzs1005 lol. Thatll work too
@@lovelorn88nick :-))
since when is $600 an entry level turntable?
insane. just insane. no way the difference in quality is worth that money. might as well go for a laser turntable
greendayray I think entry is usually considered around 200 - 300$ mid range is around 1000$ and high end is somewhere above that.
When a new Thorens is $15,000 USD: www.needledoctor.com/Thorens-TD-907-Turntable?quantity=1&custcol121=79
If you play these turntables on a department store stereo, you will probably not hear any difference -- at least not a 3x the price difference.
But if you play these turntables on a well engineered, quality stereo, the difference in sound quality, between these two turntables, will become apparent.
LOL $600 IS cheap in the turntable world. You guys must be young.
Let's see....$1100.00 on Amazon. That leaves me $20.00 for the amp and $15.00 for the speakers. That should sound amazing!
I bought an at-lp60x as my first turntable, and I’m not disappointed. It does play records slightly fast, but it’s a good start. Eventually I want to upgrade to a better system down the road, but for now I can’t complain with what I’ve got. It has good audio quality and feedback. I wish people trying to get into this hobby could see that you don’t have to buy the absolute best when first trying something new
y'know, you can slow down the turntable speed. there's a potentiometer on the bottom you can adjust - had the same problem with mine, but a few minutes with a jeweler's screwdriver got it perfect.
For less than the "Entry Level" turntable, I was able to buy a Pioneer PL-707, a direct drive, quartz lock, fully automatic with a separate servo motor for the tonearm. I was also able to buy a capacitor kit and have it fully restored to like new electronically condition, and also buy a Sound-Smith hand built Otello M cartridge.
I have 150$ turntable it's perfectly fine, records don't skip and it's connected to my Yamaha amp and Cerwin Vega e710 and sounds amazing.
Wow , nice presentation and explanation. I do understand the concept of much higher prices for very slight improvements to quality of the sound and we all can admit , if cash was no problem , we're all owning that expensive turntable. It looks the business !
The background music is extremely irritating. No need for it at all.
Spend more on the cartridge and preamp, they effect the sound way more than the turntable. at the end the turntable just spins the record and holds the cartridge, the cartridge actually produces the sound. the turntable does nothing to produce sound, you can unplug the turntable and spin it yourself and sound will still come out. You can say that heavier turntable are more resistant to vibration but unless you have some crazy subwoofers you won't hear the vibration effect from the speakers and placing the turntable on a solid surface will also help a lot
^^^^ x 1,000! So true.
The turntable actually does affect the end sound a lot more than people suspect. This was known by the late 70s and many papers were written about it. Linn Sondek was the first TT manufacturer to demonstate this phenomenon and it caught on big time and launched a whole market of over-the-top turntables.
When a TT is designed with inert, rigid, low friction, low noise parts, it allows the stylus to extract information from the groove more effectively.
For example... czcams.com/video/xter_xSu8Y8/video.html . A detailed listening comparison of a Rega Planar 3 and newer Rega P3 you can hear. With the very same cartridge, the differences in sound were substantial... in favor of the P3.
socksumi the difference in that video was subtle not substantial by no means.
@@socksumi The two Rega turntables used different cables, which on it's own makes a lot of difference.
@@socksumi
Many audiophiles makes me laugh and are inventing stupid excuses that are irrevelent. You know that the ear from a human has it limits and thus leads the question if many audiophiles aren't over exagerating their hype ? Like seriously there are turntables going for more than 50k is that realistic ? Answer is no it is only snobism .
Direct Drive turntables has no vibration nor other suspicious sounds and what not . Why would nightclubs , dj's and radios use the Technics SL-1200MKII for decades ? It has been proven it's a great turntable with experts saying it and many DJ's artist as casual users .
Belt drive turntables today are stupid and is an investment into buying accessories that will prolly not more exist for your turntable . Since 3/4 of todays brands will be bankrupt and not more follow the turntables sector anymore .
Guess many people are exagerating the world of records/turntable and are for most of them not knowing what they're talking about . Whereas others are jealous from other brands that had their success and story they will never have . And the sad part is todays CZcams videos and influencers being sponsors from certain brands that are forced to tell lies around .
No need to upgrade to get a better turntable just get a decent one and it's for your life plain simple .
Not everything needs to be bought "new" too many people doesn't want to risk and repair their materials ( too many are lazy and take all granted which is a fact sadly ) .
I sold Hi-Fi in the 1970's and early 80's. I own four turntables, three of which I bought from that time period (one I bought new in 1977). The fourth turntable I bought a year ago from Craigslist. It cost me $150. It has a LOT of features that none of my others (all fully manual direct drives) have. I can plug it into a computer or a standard live sound mixing board. I consider it to be a "true" entry level turntable, if price is at all a consideration.
FWIW, I also hate belt drive, though I think it looks really cool. :)
However, if you are looking to go "entry level" into the modern audiophile culture, the Pro-ject is the way to go. It's the modern equivalent of the old AR XA. Those that care only about sound quality above ALL else, will find it a good starting point. I'm old. I've been around and around the Audiophile block. I'm a bit more pragmatic about what I look for in a turntable (hence my love of direct drive). And I'm cheap. :)
BTW, I like yellow.
Rob, you had me nodding my head sagely all the way through... until you got to that bit about yellow. Really??? ;)
Rob Wells Nope I will never have another Pro Ject. The arms are crap and way overpriced. I will take a JELCO arm on any turned up vintage table first .
Rob Wells Yeah, I’m trying to recreate my old system from the 70’s. Pioneer SX-1010 receiver and Pioneer PL-540 turntable and some Klipsch speakers. Old School for me.
@@chrisantoniou4366 Ever since my old Opel GT, I like yellow. I wanted my FR-S in Yellow, but they didn't offer it. I ordered my large metal garage rolling tool chest in Yellow, but they sent me Lime green. I'm good with that, though. 😁
@@keithparkhill8546 Heh. Since this video, I found a guy that was virtually giving away a virtually brand new uTurn orbit plus, so I bought it. It's very nice - for what it is. But it feels like a toy compared to all my other turntables (all DD), even the infamous Audio Technica AT LP120 usb that I bought used. I see the Pro Ject as a half a notch better than the uTurn.
And for the record - I broke one of my cardinal rules regarding turntables when I bought the uTurn. To wit: NEVER buy a turntable without a removable headshell. I can get away with it regarding this one because I bought it on a lark and can easily sell it for more than I paid for it. I have no desire to swap out or any other way mess with the cartridge, so I'm good...
When I heard cheap vs expensive I was thinking 100 vs like 600, but when the cheaper one was 600...😂
Let me guess, you think a $50,000 car is expensive?
@@Sean-me4fv I don't think, I know it's expensive. Sure there are more expensive, but also less.
@@romandoo The word expensive in my opinion means it costs more than it is worth. Cheap means that it is low quality. A $600 turntable that is wonderful is not expensive, it is fairly priced. A turntable that is horrible and damages your records but costs $100 is expensive and cheap at the same time
I got myself a Compact Disc player. It's optical and uses a laser to read the music from the disc. No wear, no static because of dust and it is all digital. You can quickly skip to your favorite track and program your playlist. They say it is the future of audio mediums and will replace the vinyl record in a few years.
I remember buying my cd player in the late 80s. They said vinyl as well as cassettes were dead.
I love cds. They do have a more durability than vinyl or cassettes. I was never a big fan of cassettes, especially prerecorded. The quality wasn't there.
I have continued buying vinyl through the years and digitizing them.
I love the warm resonance of a vinyl lp. I may not use the audiophile high-end turntable, but I don't use entry level either. I am a mid-level user. I use a mm cartridge, not a ceramic cartridge. I use a mid level preamp that gives good reproduction.
Vinyl is here to stay.
I'm still paying $50/record
This is a very concise, informative demonstration on what one should expect from higher end turntables, using those two as examples.
I cannot afford one in the foreseeable future, and while I still am using a very entry level turntable which is the AT-LP60, I'll know what to look for when the time comes for an upgrade.
Thanks!
I’ll take my Thorens TD 160. It’s been serving me well for 45 years. The original Shure V15 III are getting expensive.
Nice turntable. Thanks for the info.
I enjoyed watching the presentation but his argument regarding mass is rather misleading. Mass is not the only solution to resonance, some would argue that mass in the wrong places stores energy which a lighter structure does not, if this wasn't the case nobody would buy an expensive Rega.
Me, I do like a well designed heavy turntable, anybody who tries to steal my Alphason will get a hernia trying to lift it ;).
This was the best info ever. Had no idea
So I have a Pro-ject Essential II... where in the range is that? When I listen to music on it the sound is pretty awesome
Wow Medium Density Fiberboard for $1800, what a bargain...
It's more consistent than real wood, therefore easier to get consistent results. It's all about he quality of the MDF and the way it's used and hidden. Here, it was a decent material to use. Next step up would probably be some sort of stone, or large chunk of metal.
@@PAPO1990 you'd think for that money it wouldn't be a problem. It's a rip-off. The only reason it's expensive is because they sell 18 a year.
@@nothankyoutube You want to engineer around an inconsistent material? it's a giant pain in the ass. For example, where I work we use a material, the nominal thickness is 3mm, but it often varies by as much as 0.2mm and it has caused a lot of headaches engineering around that variance. The turntables look nice, they are built well, and are just lain great turntables. It's not going to fall apart just because it's MDF, and you can't see the MDF, so what's the problem? Also if they only sold 18 a year they would cost 10 times as much (at LEAST).
Heck, there are $12,000 speakers, that sound INCREDIBLE, that are made of high quality MDF, with just a thick, high quality veneer of real wood on top, because engineering for different types of wood just for different finishes is not viable.
beaker2000 😂
I can buy a used car for that. A American made les paul. But that silly mat is totally worth the price. Lol
The difference between entry-level, mid-level and hi-end can be explained very simply. In a low-end setup the sound appears to be coming from inside a box, in a mid-level setup the sound appears to be coming from a box, and in a hi-end setup, the box disappears, there is just music. The first time you hear a hi-end setup, it is quite startling, and addictive. And unfortunately, quite expensive. When I was young I had to decide between music and a car, and I went with the music. I have no regrets!
Sure
The real difference can actually be summarized in one simple word: placebo.
Doesn't it cause problems to have vinyl on vinyl regarding the electrostatically chargeable surfaces?
Or does the wood prevent that from happening? ;)
I don't see the high end one on their website, what would be the current class that has the hight end features? Thank you.
A lot of hi-fi is WAY overpriced in order to make people BELIEVE it's way better but I used to have a professional recording studio and tested out a turntable like this in the video against my Technics SL1210mkII using the same cartridge on both and I couldn't hear a difference. That was in my very high acoustically treated recording studio listening on Dynaudio BM15A monitors, through a Soundcraft Ghost mixing desk and recording into my computer using an Apogee Rosetta 200 with X-Firewire card. It's like when you see phono cables for £1,500 or even £3,000 which i've seen before they're just designed to look nice and manufactures use marketing hype to make you believe they're better than a normal cable. I used Van Damme all throughout my studio, phono cables, XLR cables and 1/4" balanced jack cables. I tried a very expensive phono cable (I won't say manufacture name) and to my trained ears in my studio there was NO difference in sound quality. Going back to turntables ther Technics SL1210mkII is the best damped turntable in the world hell even a hi-fi magazine in the early 1990's said it was a fantastic turntable. The Technics SL1210mkII has been used in nightclubs and at raves since 1988 and even further back as far as i'm aware. I bet you could put 10,000 watts of sound system 3 metres away from the two turntables in this video and you'd hear low frequency feedback to hell. Wheras my old sound system was 8,000 watts of JBL with double 18" subs and was 2 metres away when I did parties and there was no resonance at all.
Today they throw sand in eyes with a fairy tale that goes with it for free . All these turntables they sell these last 15+ years are crap . Way too expensive has non needed gadgets for example 78rpm since kinda no one has shellac records anymore and if they have they are probably in bad condition or broken .
All these Made in China from Hanpin makes me laugh and sad how they fool people around the world .
As for Audio-Technica turntables they are from Hanpin . That bran AT should have stayed with what they do the best selling stylus/needles and other accessories instead putting their brand on turntables they not make at all .
Anyway for me the world of records and turntables is done and it's too late to invest thousands of money since it will be worth nothing more in a couple decades .
@@defiraphi Technics SL1210mkII aren't crap my pair are 33 years old according to serial numbers on the decks and they still work like new.
Always been a Technics and Vintage Advocate. Them are magnificent. Direct drive, so less fluttering (thats more important than vibrations), heavy and well damped.; Not necessarily the 1210 Mk2 but also the magnificent SL 1100 audiophile one!
Does not matter how much you spend, your belt will wear out and will require constant and regular replacements. About once a year or less if you are very serious about fidelity.
Vibrations from the drive on a high end DD turntable are non existent. Only reason for the high end turntable to go Belt is sleek design and simplicity. It's sleeker than housing and shielding the electronics and large motor required to direct drive it, allowing for, indeed, more damping. So yeah, theoretically, less outside vibrations but at the cost of speed accuracy.
SiriusXAim you're basing speed accuracy as compared to a crappy 100 dollar turntable. Wow and flutter is vanishing low with higher end properly built belt drive turntables also using a speed controlled device furthers that to non audible levels speed accuracy is a none issue. Plus there are cartilages that do not like hovering over a motor and it's magnetic field effects either. I think most people miss the point of direct drive. Direct drive benefits a broadcaster in startup times and cueing in broadcasting or public performance situations, nobody is gonna care that the table is dead quiet anyhow. Plus any noise this direct drive might produce would be readily unnoticeable in a broadcast situation with loss in the transmission by adding its own noise and distortions and limitations, which would defiantly show up on any system with an exceptionally low noise floor in a noncommercial listening environment. Less noise is better and not BS!!
WRONG. I'm on only my second belt on my HK belt drive TT from the 80's. Replaced it in like 2004 maybe. Used very little until 2 years ago. Used extremely heavily in the past year. Yet it still spins on. Yeah, I know it can go at any time, but still.
No I dont. I'm basing it between £2.5k ProJect RPM 10 and a £50 Pioneer PL-320 turntable I bought as a Xmas Gift.
The PL-320 has a wow and flutter of 0.035 % wrms according to Hifi Database.
The Project RPM 10, has 0.11% wrms according to ProJect themselves.
Thats about 3 times less precise under the best of circumstances. Of course, yes, the Pioneer has less vibration isolation than the ProJect, but my point remains, and a high end Direct Drive will also have better vibration isolation
Replace the Belt once a year? Nah, they really don't wear out that fast. My fiancee's parents have a cheap belt driven turntable from the GDR from the late 80s, used it, and the belt still is fine today.
SiriusXAim better vibration isolation by bolting the motor to the platter?! Yeah, if you say so... 😁
I have a juiced up Rega RP1 (new wiring, new cable, perfectly balanced thick acrylic platter, aluminum sub-platter, ruby bearing, record weight), and $500 cartridge. It sounds as good as any I've ever listened to. I also have a Audio Technica LP3 (white) automatic turntable with an acrylic mat, aluminum feet with rubber isolators, and a Vessel line contact cartridge $234. Which do I play most? The LP3 sounds very good (5 star What HiFi Britain). Don't let anyone tell you a very expensive turntable sounds better than some less expensive ones.
Thanks - worked out great
BUT
I had trouble figuring out how EXACTLY to get the c clamp off and on and where to put pressure with my fingers and screwdriver. I finally figured it out as you do it quickly in your video and don't explain exactly how to do it.
*In my case - the c clamp is metal and was very hard to budge- getting it on was easier but required quite a bit of pressure from the back - pushing the opening toward the spindle - from the back of the c.
You know what is even better? A linear turntable with direct drive from the '80s with a premium stylus.
Here, here.
i can't believe the "high end" one is still manual action... and belt driven! the "vinyl resurgence" has done some very odd things to fashions in turntable design.
Dear Patrick! Which turntable would you recommend? TIA
all high end turntables are belt driven
like a technics for example.
Mine and your definition of "entry level" is miles apart..
I bought one of those clamp weights for my turntable, but I usually only use it when I'm playing an older record that might be a bit warped.
Great video, but when are you coming back to do the high end turntable review?
"it's made of MDF" so the cheapest wood you can get.
Not much of an improvement in quality.
Could just buy a 50 or so year old $20-50 dollar turn table at a used electronics store. Wood cabinet, belt driven, solid metal drum, and speed control.
@cloudN9ne2010 - particle board is cheaper... by some margin...:)
Not really. MDF is good for reducing resonances in a way that even solid wood can't. Of course it depends on the quality of the MDF, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with using MDF as a material for turntables.
@@chrisantoniou4366 I don't see how. MDF is nothing more that wood fibres mixed with resins and binders, none of which would make it any better at reducing resonances than wood.
@@cbcdesign001 Exactly. It's stiffer and doesn't have the same resonance peaks and troughs that wood does.
It could be that MDF is a fine material for platters due to its density (though it is not a durable material at all) but it is definitely not a feature that even begins justifies that price, either. But I probably wouldn't talk up PVC like it's an exotic material either.
Get rid of the crappy, damaged felt mat. If you put that same felt mat on the high-end turntable, it would look like crap too.
Dazlidorne Jenkins what would you get instead?
@@oliverriderchannel Rubber or cork
Surprised they didnt film it in "Black & White" to make it even less appealing.
X2! Pure dishonesty on display.
This dude has a calming voice.
I wonder how my Dual 1249 from 1975 compares to both decks. I have to admit that i had to replace the famous steuerpimpel
with a piece of the inner isolation from a coax antenna cable,lubricate a couple points to get the automatic running ,and cleaned it thoroughly to make it presentable again. But since then - which is now a couple years ago - it runs smoothly.
And that for less than 100 bucks. Not bad imho.
A good entry level turntable is an AT-LP120XUSB, it comes with a basic build in phono pre amp and usb capabilities as well as the ability to be in phono mode however the face it takes any standard cartridge and headshell means for the price you get a solid turntable and the ability to improve sound without breaking the bank. If you wanted to improve the sound of the LP120X even further you could bypass the internal pre amp by wiring the phono pickups directly to the RCA connectors and use a decent external pre amp giving you insanely high quality sound from a very reasonably priced turntable. Something like this should leave you with money for some speakers and an AMP if need be, worst case you can use some active bookshelf speakers and the bult in pre amp till you can afford a proper reciever with passive speakers.
I bought a Sony PSX-75 turntable when it was new. It seemed expensive at the time, but it works out to about $24 per year, and it's worth more than when I bought it. It has quartz-locked speed control using feedback from a magnetic head that reads magnets encoded on the inside rim of the platter. The Biotracer arm has motors and sensors for horizontal and vertical positioning. It responds at 10 Hz, so rumble is eliminated and it can play warped records while maintaining the correct tracking force. My first point is that better technology has been around for a long time. My second point is that if you buy sufficiently good Hi-Fi gear and maintain it, it can provide a lifetime of pleasure.
just back in the game after 35 years, I bought a Pro-ject esprit and I could not be happier, I am adding a pre amp and maybe upgrade to the blue cartridge but as is, it is a great turntable, would rather spend money on record hahah
Have that table and love it, the blue is the best decision you can make
Kurt, what about tangential Turntables?
In video both are radial, best high end turntables has biotracer and tangential arm that cuts noise about 3dB
and avoids arm skating across vinyl record
Brett Coleman.....you are so right. The $600 model sounds awesome next to mass produced, commercial "record players". However, the $1800 High end sounds ridiculously HEAVENLY!! I had a 400 "high end" turntable back in the late '70's that I thought was the best, then in '89 I was able to buy a used $2500 VPI Mark IV table for $1850. It sounded better than any CD player. Heavenly!!
No it didn't sound better than any CD player Brett. The reason for the vinyl hobby is not that vinyl can compete with digital. It CAN'T. Almost all modern records are notably published from high quality digital prints. Its because vinyl is inherently flawed and it gives the end user something to do to minimize these flaws as a hobbiest. As a vinyl collector you experience your music with 4 of your 5 senses. The visuals of the cover art, the scent of the cleaning solutions and materials, feel of being in direct contact with the record as you prep it for playback. And even your mind as you read supplementary material you wouldn't bother reading on a CD. There is even a spiritual aspect to prepping the vinyl before playback that is reminiscent of a religious ritual. Its akin to worshipping the vinyl.
@@emailatomic yawn. Trying to disprove a subjective opinion. Get a life bro.
@@Snakebloke If my opinion is subjective why are you criticizing it? That's what forums are for is posting your opinion. But in my case it's not really subjective. It's factual
Modern records even older records are now made from a digital master, not the original analog master. Ergo all records regardless of format are inherently digital. And with digital you can't do better than the original digital sound by playing it with a needle. It's not logical. Therefore it's not even subjective. It's just dumb. So unless you mean there's no point in arguing that the Earth is a globe with a flat earther. It's on that level.
Back when we literally pressed analog from an analog master they might have had an argument. But you can't get away from digital sound even when you buy an analog format.
Brett you are insane. It's not the turntable. The only thing a turntable can do is accurately spin a record at the correct speed. Everything else on the turntable from the tone arm to the platter to the plinth can at best only prevent introducing vibration and noise from the motor and from the music playing in the room. You can eliminate the ladder by simply putting the cheapest ass turntable outside of the room or in a closet. The only thing that can meaningfully improve the sound is your phono cartridge that interfaces directly with the grooves. That's the prime reason you're $2,500 turntable in 1989 sounded better than your $400 turntable. A turntable in and of itself cannot improve over some turntable that has dead accurate speed and is isolated from vibration. Those expensive feet, the platter mats, heavy platters, the plinth, have zero to do with making the sound better. All they can do is play a small role in minimizing introduction of sound vibration from the music going on in the room.
It's impossible, literally impossible, scientifically impossible for the turntable itself to improve the sound.
Only your interface with the record can improve the sound.
And we no longer press albums from analog Masters. We press them from digital Masters . So no matter what you do you cannot get away from digital sound even by buying an analog record. It's all CD sound basically.
Price alone does not get you great sound. One would assume that the turntable you purchased is not the only thing you upgraded since the seventies. And one would assume when you bought your new turntable it came with or you purchased a significantly better phono cartridge.
I'd invite you to explain how a component on a turntable except for the cartridge can actually improve the sound better than a turntable isolated from room noise.
@@emailatomic I own CD and Vinyl forever. I have to disagree, Cd just get washed when vinyl are pushed to their maximum potential (I won’t even get started on digital).
I made a CZcams video of comparing 2 brand new record players... one being the cheap $100 audiotechnica at lp60 and the other a Project essential III, can't remember exactly which one, but the ortofon om 5e cartridge I believe. And honestly you could not hear a difference with the 2. It really came down to the phono pre amp, amplifier and speakers also cartridge... installed a 2m red cartridge on an old Technics sl 220 turntable and replaced headshell, belt and that sounds as good as the new project!
Enjoyed the video as I'm wanting to get the Pro-ject Debut Carbon Espirit SB DC in the red color. I currently have the Audio-Technica AT-LP120 that I've have to heavily modify to get it to better standards. Removing the built-in USB preamp was the biggest improvement and soldering in a set of RCA cables directly to the tone arm wiring drastically improved and changed the sound quality. Looking into a turntable trade-in with Sound Stage direct to see if it's possible to trade my current TT in for the Pro-Ject TT I really want. Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB DC Turntable - RedPro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB DC Turntable - RedPro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB DC Turntable - RedPro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB DC Turntable - Red
From what I've read, the issue with the AT-LP120's preamp is that it includes a low-pass filter that isn't bypassed when you bypass the preamp. However, can't you just adjust the EQ on your receiver to compensate for the low-pass?
@@usernamesareforidiot About a year later. after my LP-120 developed several more issues, I bought the Rega Planar 2 and this solved many problems! My Lp-120 just sits on a shelf collecting dust as it's a real POS! I use it occasionally to help do some cleaning of some LPs, but mainly just sits on a shelf. I did bypass the internal preamp by removing it and it did improve things quite a bit. But later it developed a serious anti-skate issue and then an odd motor noise issue that a new motor didn't fix either. So I basically junked it!
I think the video description is wrong. It says the higher end turntable is the Pro-ject 1XPression but it looks more like the Pro-ject 2XPerience.
I feel like I could build a solid turntable by copying designs from the best turntables and using an Arduino for speed control automatic start stop and stuff. Probably be easier than quartz locked table.
This man has me under the impression that even the debut carbon is piece of crap when I KNOW it isn't lol
It is, though
@@badass98svt fuckin christ do you ever stop. Lmfao. It's like says a $20,000 car is junk because it's not a $70,000 car. Lmfao. Or someone is poor because they make $50,000 a year and not $70,000 a year. You probably have the same personality as the guy in the video. 😂🤣😀
@@lovelorn88nick The debut carbon is not seen in a good light by more savvy enthusiasts because of its perceived value for how much they're charging for it. The mdf platter and plinth is the most glaring point. Look up how much mdf costs. Now look at the 9v motor which can be bought for ~£40 spare. What are you then paying for then at the rrp? The arm is good enough but the slightly shorter 8.6" is not a draw. Since its a simple deck, its a good basis to customise. One can change plinth and or platter material. Try different tonearm etc. The main bearing slips out of the platter so the platter can be swapped.
@@lovelorn88nick chuckie needs to stop sounding like a certain "doll" from the movies..his ignorance is mind blowing...just saying
@@lovelorn88nick chuckie is a tool...
My third turntable is AT LP 120USB and its' cost was US dollar 300. I'm very happy with this one. My previous ones were Kenwood and Technics. Thanks.
project saw us coming
Jesus.. your lower end model is out of my price range for my "high end" options
It really is a lower-end TT. This high-end TT is actually mid-range TT.
@@martins4531 ok vinyl snob.
I absolutely love vinyl, but I know it's limitations. One of them, big time, is bass response. I have an old Telark digital recording of the 1812 overture. Every cartridge I have, except one, pops right out of the grove on the second canon blast. It's like a car on a tight corner going over the cliff. That's why records have less of the really deep bass. Well, that and space. Bass like that causes pretty wide groove spacing which is simply not practical, so they roll it off.
I've found a sweet spot setting for my system to get good bass out of vinyl without it going boomy, but people have to recognize that the format really does have its limitations.
i know curve equalisation always has losses, but isn't that what the RIAA curve is for? and why preamps have to reverse the RIAA curve, and why records sound flat and weird if you don't use a preamp?
EDIT: unless of course you're just talking about mastering-house practices, similar to modern CDs peaking all the damn time?
@Rob Wells - Indeed mate - well said. Vinyl needs an appropriate equipment and loudspeakers. To compensate for the bass follow a basic equation: 12" vinyl = 12" woofer ...:)
Assuming a MM or MC cartridge, Records sound flat and weird if you don't use a pre-amp because their output is so low.
Rob Wells Right now its seems they are developing HD vinyl however. Cut with a laser instead of a cutter head the stamps should utilize more space effectively to either deliver 15 minute longer playtime or more impressively, higher frequencies. Im not sure if this helps the bass issue or if it even matters since humans can only hear around 20 000 khz. What do you think?
bcdhifi Its very new and wont be utilized on many releases the developers said. At least not for many years. Its interesting tech non the less.
I had this entry level Pro-ject table. I really liked it's performance and feel. Unfortunately you really need the external speed controller for accurate playing. I eventually got tired of the lack of internal speed strobe. The external controller took up extra footprint space plus money. It just wasn't worth it to me unless you want to spend 1k and have plenty of room for the table and the controller.
Fine but for one who got this gramofon, player, record player. We who dont have it???
Hi. Greetings from Brazil. Just for curiosity, what is the family name of Herr Kurt, which drives so nicely videos? I would like to know a little bit more from him. Thanks in advance.
lol "low end" 600ish, "high end" 1800ish.... my turn table 50$
Nobody ever said low end, both are good turntables. If I remember correctly project has 200 dollar turntables too. (btw he was talking about canadian dollars)
redX111t Have you ever used Pro-Ject's "cheap" TTs? They are made of Uber cheap MDF wood & the Damn motor is a cheap ass piece of crap that dies within the first 3 months of use. Even the power adaptor is an ultra cheap low-grade make make that my local electronics handyman recommended it be thrown into the garbage bin where it rightfully belongs. So yeah, I used that Pro-Ject TT all for about 4 months. It was a piece of shit.
You should get an audio technica lp 60, they're a bit more expensive at around 99$ USD but they are sooo worth it
The video's title reads "High End", but the host says "higher end" a few times (the latter, of which, is accurate).
Neither of these two turntables is high end -- not by any stretch of the imagination.
That does not mean that they are bad. They just are not high end.
Maybe Toyota Camry level (which is a very good, reliable machine). But no Corvettes here, and certainly no Enzo Ferrari's
Joebobdacow.... it's a great player, never skips, great sound, no speed fluctuation.
I have a 1980 Denon DPL 60 with direct drive and quartz lock. Wouldn't trade that for his so called high end TT any day.
Neither would anyone else, I would hope.
I have a dp-45f I bought about 30 years ago. It is not the greatest denon made, a bit of a poser, but it looks nice and lasted decades even after taking a tumble down a flight of stairs! Still sounds good with the cartridge making about 1/3 of the purchase price.
Well, pro-ject is czech brand, its made know how comes out of Tesla factory (same city) they know how to do this stuff. And if you think 1800 usd turntable is is high end , you better not try to find out more about it. Direct drive is only good for one thing, scratching.
So the 1Xpression uses a 2M Red at an msrp of 1k? The RT84 comes with the eliptical stylus of the 2M Blue, vs the conical Red - for less than the price of the "entry level" Debut.
I sometimes wonder if the average quality of records is up to the quality of turntables. I guess you could expect the original groove cutter might cost in the 10s of k area, but the records are pressed, not cut. Is an expensive TT just accurately reproducing the inadequacies of the pressing?
That said, I have only ever bought one ot two LPs that were obviously badly pressed, with bad sibilance on the highs.
And yes, "Wow. A speed button."
The Debut Carbon is not really an entry level turntable, in my opinion it is already pretty high end. Of course not so much as the 1000+ turntables but they are really really good!
it's not really high end either, it's mid-level.
I agree. ' audiophiles ' regard this ( equipment ) as fun , some guys have bass boats, some have motorcycles, some like $20,000 stereos. fine each to their own but I strongly believe 'point of diminishing returns' sets in at about $ 3 to 5 hundred each for a amp, speakers, and source ( CD err big box store DVD for $75. + T'table.)
$600 for an entry level tt? WTF?! No thanks
Those are 600 Canadian dollars. That's like 450 US dollars
Entry Level, buy a Sony USB for $100, remove all the automation guts, replace the cartridge, paint, and tint... it will run better than stock... and only cost you about $100. That's entry level.
Entry level Project is USD 299.00, that is entry level for Project the largest manufacturer of turntables in the world. They have 60+ years of experience and build greta turntables.
$299.00 for a basic yet quality turntable fitted with a cartridge is affordable to all who wish to have quality playback at home.
entry level for some PITA for others...:)
Get an LP60 by Audio Technica, $150 Canadian. Beauty table.
What about if you use the same cartridge both entry level and hiend turntable? Blind test anyone?
One of those questions that’s hard to answer. Yes there is a huge difference, Resonance control just seems to be the key.I started with a Project Debut have ended up with a Clearaudio Emotion SE . The difference is like night & day. I just don’t see the need to upgrade the cartridge
I'm good with my AT LP 120 thanks.
Most ppl I know with LP 120 & LP 60 all complain about skipping & wobble. They have records that have locked grooves or skipping which I then play on my table & not a skip whatsoever. The 60 & 120 are also going to wear/damage records quicker. I have albums that are $500 or more, no way I’d ever play them on an AT table.
I hope you have high end buttons on that shirt. Your sure making them work
😂😂😂😂😂
I got a $20 full plastic JVC from a thrift store. It had a stylus in good condition, plugged it in and it plays without issues. You don't need to spend a fortune to hear the amazing sound of a vinyl disc, and I warmly recommend getting a cheap known brand at first, because these are far less complex inside. You will get a great sound - remember these need be plugged into either an amplifier or much cheaper I plugged mine into my TV set or into a powered pair of computer speakers - using an adapter cable
Same here. I bought a Sony turntable, after a recap, cleaning, new belt and diamond stylus, plays good enough for me.
Not sure why but if there wasn’t that music in the background I know this guys voice would make me fall asleep. For some reason I get ASMR vibes
$600 and you have to change the speed by removing the platter.
Crazy how bad turntable manufacturers got. A basic Japanese 1978 bottom of the line TT that you could get for 100 $ then beats the shit out of these two TTs in the video.
So half of the differences is snake oil? Can't say I'm surprised.
Why don't you buy it, compare it and then make an comment based on your experience?
Lol sure. Lets spend 2 grand on turntables to answer a stupid comment on youtube.
anyone posting comments based on their "feelings" instead of first hand experience cannot be taken seriously... and thank you for your intelligent comment Roger it only reinforces our initial post...
VioletGiraffe i wouldn't say that, the better your overall system is the more difference your turntable makes
VioletGiraffe I know. I love pro-ject but an extra 1200 dollars for a thicker platter and base. I could make them for about 30
Now I'm going to have to do some testing. I already have my TT shelf mounted to a sturdy wall, and I know with my cover lifted it traps all kind of sonic resonance and muddies everything. without cover attached is doable as it is designed to be removed, but is a pain in the rear to get aligned back onto the hinge rods. But....if there is an improvement that is noticeable, I'll just grab a duster and gingerly do some dustin'.
I have a Sony pst3 turntable 1t was about 200 dollars is it a good one
Having to remove your platter and manually change the belt every time you want to play a 7" has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.
Convenience is too mainstream bro,lol, the whole vinyl resurgence is hipster as fuck because hi Res audio files and CDs ARE superior
A bit boring, the only thing I don’t like about my Debut Carbon. For everything else it’s an amazing turntable and you can also upgrade it over time, improving its performance and making it closer to the “high end” one next to it here.
Sounds very 1950s if not 40s. Stupid idea, I wouldn't buy it just for that reason.
But it comes with a special plastic tool to move the belt! If only it had a platter made out of the same stuff IKEA makes drawer bottoms out of I would be sold.
You can buy a speedbox to change the speed remotely.
Wait....where is the dust cover?
roguesquatch1 they were removed for the video
Oh... Right!!.... Dust cover!!! ....
Yes! They can be had for ONLY an additional $300.00 smh
Sorry, vinyl was great 25 years ago but I've since became very fond of my .flac music files.
mottbone Vinyl can provide a superior sound if the mixing or mastering is superior.
Dust covers are important because when you put one on you don’t hear annoying high pitched sounds
I think this comparison would be improved if it was accompanied by a link to downloadable audio files that would allow us hear a sound sample of each TT. That way we'd be able to decide whether there's a significant enough difference in audio quality to justify the increased price.
Quarter of a century ago, the same record clamp came stock with entry-level Pro-jects (I got mine model P2 around 2000, already well used, clamp included). Not anymore.
OK, so one of the nice differences is that the "good" one is made of particle board and plastic instead of metal....mind blown.
Go to an audio showroom, ask to test two turntables (say you are considering buying one but don't know if it's worth spending more than £1000 when a £200 tt will do the job). I promise you will hear a difference.
But a CD player will always sound better than both.
@@mirabilis well, not always. the reason people claim vinyl is better is because you can't ruin the mastering on a record as much as you can on a cd as it will make the stylus skip. if the master is done well, then the cd will sound better. but, if the mastering is bad, the vinyl version of the album typically sounds better due to the mastering having to be modified to fit in the limits of a vinyl record.
@@gatt0203 If it's the same master. Do I really need to be this specific?? Of course it cannot sound better than it's master! Duh.
@@mirabilis fuck you too
so many impolite comments, thanks for an interesting movie, i am starting to enjoy turntable music more and more
Do felt mats introduce static?
My Pioneer 518 & Technics 1600mk2 are decades old but play great. Will outlast me
The $1800 turntable comes with a speed box so you can change the speed woop d fuk
not a 1,200 difference though.
Diminishing return... its a marginal difference at best. But if music is the thing that you truly love and you are willing to spend that much money on it... idk. Not for me... moneyed enthusiast, i can see the draw
If music is the thing you truly love - go listen to some live performances! A lot of orchestras perform in churches, for example. And give the money to musicians, they will give it a better use. I have a crappy setup at home, but I can easily afford a lot of sound quality that all of the snake oil in the world can give.
This hobby isn't for most people. Most should stick to their phone and a set of ear buds.
Agreed. Look at audio components, there is a difference in quality/functionality between the low-end (say sub $200 - tough there are some cheap gems out there) and the mid-range (say up to $500). Above $500, massive diminished returns. Two exceptions are speakers and to a lesser extent power amps. Not always, but quality $1000+ speakers usually sound better than $500 ones.
I have owned BIC, Dual, and Technics turntables, all mid-priced products. None of them held a candle to a Sansui SR-4050C I picked up from a thrift store. I've been told it's because the Sansui is a manual table.
My beginners recommendations are simple. If you can afford it I recommend an Audio Technica LP120XUSB (about 400$). If that’s a bit much you should check out the Audio Technica LP60 (about 100$).
I have to agree that the heavy turntable usually sound a little better less vibrations I'll give him that. For 1- I didn't like the idea of taking off the platter to change the belt from a 33 to a 45 that would drive me nuts! I'm happy with my Technics & my Dual But always on the look out to see if anything is better.
I have had my technics slk1200 mk2 since 1985 and it has never gave any issues and it is still going strong today and I would only buy technics, pioneer they're the most reliable and I do have a dual 1019 which is great also but not as reliable
I can see you are a true audio technician...you believe in pure sound...this is why you choose such high quality and pricey equipment...well done video sir
Dude fix that slipmat o__O
Playing records was certainly a labor of love, but you did get those sleeves with notes, photos, and often the lyrics. I have a UK made Manticore Mantra, glass platter fully suspended and fully manual. Still going strong after 30 years and it does not eat belts, only needed 3. What I will add however regarding the debate about formats, and I do have most of them, is that the quality of the recording is the biggest factor. I have master recordings of dark side of the moon on virgin vinyl and gold cd, apart from the few pops you get from the vinyl there is not much difference.
Does anyone make quartz locked direct drive turntables any more?
I wish to have money to buy that blue entry level!My 3 months salary in Romania! I teach art!
Yeah its fucking rediculous.
This guy is just a crazy audiophile and he's talking nonsense
Lot of stupid statements here. The main differences between a good turntable and a basic turntable is noise floor, cartridge isolation and speed accuracy. A lot of things create the differences and what he said is correct. A stylus needs to be isolated from external resonances to do its job correctly. Remember,this is extreme mechanical engineering making a physical movement into a complexed sine wave. I have only touched the surface. Statements like "Theres no noise from my turntable".
Maybe so mate, but your turntable does'nt have the Dynamic Range to show this.
If you have an average turntable, take it down to your local HIFI store with a few of your LP's and compare please.
Don't use Utube to make a decision.
Harry Denny "meant to be heard" I hear that phrase all the time when it comes to vinyl but what does it even mean. I doubt most of any bands now have specifically made their music to be heard on high end vinyl players. Unless you're Jack White or something.
Just get a CD player. Perfect noise floor, perfect speed accuracy.
Don't even bother. The nay sayers are mostly tone deaf. Of course there is a huge difference and if they haven't actually experienced it (as you mentioned and suggested), then there is no point discussing the matter. Like explaining a Van Gogh to someone who was born blind.
+GreenEyes so could you explain why they give people a felt mat with a 600 tt? You do know that felt is the worst material, don't you? You do know that the platter weight is essential, why the give cheap plastic sub-plater and a cheap-few grams-sheet metal as a platter? Come on!!! Between the 2 TT , well yes there might be a huge difference, but this is because their cheap model is a crap.
CDs do not have perfect speed accuracy and are also dependent on the machines playing them. This was found out by the Flaming Lips in making Zaireeka. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaireeka#Logistics_of_listening
Pretty interesting experiment.
If the debut carbon is entry level then what is my primary e
Hmmmm So am I meant to just take your word for it and purchase one or the other.... I thought that I was going to see an oscilloscope proving that one turntable is actually quieter than the other or even to simply put a record on and hit the table to show how well they can reject external vibrations... My 1970's Pioneer PL-120 turntable which I purchased for $100AU actually came with an amplifier, tuner and cassette deck. Sits on a timber floor 30cm from my B&W 12" powered subwoofer and it doesn't skip a beat even when the amplifier is running full tilt.. Some vibrations do get through and I can see the 15" woofers moving on my main speakers in a way that is different to the music that is being played through them. Unfortunately my Sony ES amplifier doesn't have the rumble filter that was ever present on older Hifi so I just live with it... I have purchased many turntables over the years and as nice as they looked... Turn up the volume and the tracks start to jump around. I was hoping that I was going to learn something from this video but all that I received was a sales pitch.. I think that people couldn't care less if it's made out of a piece of dog shit... All you need to be able to do is prove that it's actually better, lower noise, less rumble and so on... The product will sell itself.
OK, so now I feel bad about buying a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon.......
You shouldn't. It's great.
Do not! It is a wiser buy than the more expensive one this guy is trying to sell. The way he so confidently says you will hear the difference between the fat ass turntable over a Project is nonsense. Just a sales tool. Him saying it is trying to make you believe. Just an advertisement tool. Don`t be a fool for this guy. The Project sounds as good as the other one. It doesnt sound almost as good. It sounds the same. Project all the way, and you get an acrylic platter With no cusion. This video is no good. Turnatables that are better than record players that cost less than 2000 bucks exist, but you have to spend in the range of 12-15thousand dollars to make an Upgrade that will matter.
I wasn't really that serious. I own a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon for three years now which I upgraded with an acrylic platter about a year ago (which REALLY _DID_ make an improvement on the sound, it made it sound much more "steady", and deeper bass....I really didn't expect so much sound difference, it was more that I hated the felt mat on the original metal platter and the looks of the acrylic on my white turntable).
Anyway, I am really pleased with the sound. It easily beats my former Technics SL-1410 with Empire 2000 cartridge.
Remember that the other turntable is also a Pro-ject. I do believe there are sound differences but as always in hifi / audiophile: the price differences explode compared to minor improvements.
Now looking for something that will _really_ upgrade my sound: a new cartridge. The Ortofon 2M bronze is on my short-list...will be a huge jump from the Ortofon OM-10 which came with the table.
+hasekdom Both turntables are by Pro-Ject, dipshit, and differences are easy to hear at those two price points.
Uh-duh. Don`t you think project wants you to buy a New Project even if the one you already own is fine and dandy? It is impossible to hear a difference when the demonstration is conducted properly. This is a Commercial in disguise. Simple minded fools are so easily had when they dress up some old tool and tell him to say this and that. I am confident I have the best sounding turntable. I refuse to let joe schmoe make med hear Things that aren`t there.
Yeah but Polka music sounds like crap on both.
you win this comment section sir :)
agreed
No way Gary Miles! Lol.
Gary Miles ba-dum-tss!!!
Ortofon "Silver" cartridge. I always thought you wanted copper wiring, which is what creates the warm sound of vinyl?
I have a debut 3 and could not be happier but I will probably upgrade soon just for fun.
Just watched your video, it's good to know that a high end turntable cost more due to better build quality but I have tried to find a video that actually does a direct sound quality comparison between budget and high end. Cannot find a video that actually does this. I don't think people are going to spend more money for better build quality if it doesn't sound substantially better.
It will but you won’t be able to hear it on CZcams lol the audio is too compressed
Emperor's New Clothes springs to mind. I bet with the same cartridge they probably sound identical.
I have the debut carbon with the ortofon 2m red cartridge and cork mate. It is all i need
So many people upset they can't afford even the mid-price Debut carbon. Project know this, which is why they also make turntables for less than £150.
My $99 Audio Technica has a button to switch speeds. bahaha.
hehe YAS
And sounds shite by comparison.
yeah and it's also an imitation of a real table. hahaha!
my audio technica sounds great for me, and is perfect for my lifestyle and living situation. not everyone is privileged enough to spend tons of money on an expensive turn table.
Ill keep my 80s denon with ortofon red
How about one where you compare entry level tables to some found on Kijiji for 30-100.00...?
I own a Project 6.1s .
Is this a high-end or entry level?
Yes of course it is. BTW Your ears will tell you.