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Quitting TrainerRoad - Adapting to a Private Coach
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2024
- Why am I leaving TrainerRoad? Mainly because it almost caused me to quit cycling - OK to be fair - I am responsible for my own behavior, but over 2 years on TrainerRoad I have found the system to be too rigid and not giving me enough time at peak fitness. I loved my gains, but was starting to feel very burnt out and even when motivated, I felt I was on the way to a plateau. I'm excited to share with #racefam how a coach is able to bring all those nuances to your progression and adapt your training to fit your lifestyle and goals. TR just released some new tech which looks AWESOME, but a little too late for me. I'm making the change. I'll post plenty of updates along the way - let me know what you think!
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P.S. Here are some of my favorite things to power your ride on Amazon...some weird stuff and some basics (I do earn very small commissions on the links on this page):
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Who am I?
Brian Davis, inventor of Fix It Sticks, Backbottle and The Weatherneck System and creator of Fo//ow Ho//ow Performance Alpaca brand - I discuss race tactics and strategies to be a faster, fitter and smarter cyclist.
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Questions: brian@briandavisraces.com
I think your problem was doing the high volume plan, I’ve followed you when I started on TR and I’ve only done the low volume plans but I’ve always been around the same ftp as you
You are 100% correct the HV plan was a mistake - no way around that. My thought was if I did their highest plan and executed it well I could make videos about it and they'd be fair. No where in there did I really analyze what that would do to me as a human - DUH! It's on me thats for sure, but I am actually not sure why the HV plan even existed to be honest.
@JR in fact, on the pod yesterday I recall Nate saying they developed the high volume plans due to demand for them and we're dragged into it. Also, they emphasize consistency over volume and there exists other suggestions to prefer lower volume plans.
@@BrianDavisraces Nah, that's not on you. If someone on a platform like TR calls themselves a coach, and that's the plan they create for their athletes, why would it be up to you to know that that plan is detrimental to you long lerm? You trust the people creating that plan, and go with it.
A new cyclist may not/ will not know that the liener plans in TR are bad, and think their killing it , because they see gains, but the plan is doing more harm than good long term.
If anyone that wants a good platform try the sufferfest. Its what i used when i was short on cash. The coach on there actually coaches a pro named rohan denis
TR recommends the high volume plan to me based on my training availability and history. That's on TR to fix, not the end users.
Avoiding burn out is without a doubt what I have NOT been able to figure out in 2 consecutive years of consistent training. This seems to be the #1 topic a the lead-group. I also just saw Dylan video and resonated so much! At any rate, another overreaching frustrated cyclist here. Very much looking forward to see your journey, but with a coach. Many many many thanks for documenting this.
Can feel that for sure. Maybe it’s a result of the last year with no goals but lots of training..certainly feel like if for me..
well you timed that badly, brian lol
Lulz. Yeah. The adaptive thing sounds cool. I’m keeping my subscription. I have some ideas on how to use it to compare/contrast with a coach actually.
@@BrianDavisraces i've signed up for the beta version. i'm done with digging holes so i hope its good
Love your passion for wanting to get better! Good luck with the coach!
thanks Peter - FORWARD - ALWAYS!
I actually stopped before that for the same reason. Not all training works for everyone. I saw the adaptive training video and I'm still not convinced it's for me. I came off of my most fit season ever and started using TR in October. I never missed a workout. In two years I had only failed one workout....as in tapped out. With TR I tapped out several times and like you, started feeling burn out. I literally wanted to stop riding. I stepped back and am going back to polarized training.
Great video!
Great decision to go polarized! 👍
Rooting for you!
Thank you so much, I appreciate it. I'm so excited about this new direction. I'll have some interesting compare/contrast insights coming on the channel as it progresses.
As others have said, I'm doing a low volume plan and can't imagine doing a high volume of the same stuff. I picked low volume to leave room for unstructured riding. I think you could burn out on any training plan eventually, though.
Yeah, I get asked all the time about what TR plan would be wise (less asking after plan builder), but still I always tell people to do exactly what you said here, but then my dumb self goes off the rails and does some extremely dumb stuff. Ughhhh
Dude. Burnout is real. I almost quit last fall especially when I started losing power and gaining weight. It’s super frustrating mentally and physically.
I wish I was in your position financially to be able to afford a coach. In the interim, I am on the mid-volume TR all-around plan which has yielded gains.
But
I am worried about hitting that burnout again.
Looking forward to following your coach driven journey Brian.
Thanks Lucas, I am excited to post about the process regularly. The financial thing is no joke, but I think TR on lower volume with some extra zone2 rides is really about all that's needed. I want to have the coach experience to share with you guys more than anything else to see how they really compare/contrast
The sweet spot model gave me gains but it burned me out mid-season. It wasn't the intervals themselves, it was the frequency of them. Knowing nothing at the time about structured training, I was thinking 'there should be more balance to this'. Good luck! Following your journey over here.
Having trained and raced for 45 years I’d suggest that you come to grips with self coaching based on perceived exertion. Expecting an app or a coach to tell what to do misses the point. The best athletes listen to their bodies through each phase to optimize stress adaptation.
@Steven Vanlancker social media isn’t helping, we just see the drama of the big adventure rides. To develop a big engine requires a huge base of zone one time. Pretty boring, unless you enjoy the process and are very disciplined. Big dramatic adventure rides are motivating. But we have to enjoy the training process to develop capacity to do them. There are no short cuts.
Yeah I totally got wrapped up in chasing those blue bars without taking time to really think about what I want from the sport. Doing essentially the same workout 3x a week and another same workout the other 3x a week dragged on me finally but the kicker was getting my ass kicked in those fatbike races. I understand I made huge strides in getting back to shape after the burnout phase, but geez it started to be really ALL ON or ALL OFF and that's not the right fit for my life. I like having a coach for the accounrability - I don't require it, but I do use it to help prioritze the workouts otherwise, I am very happy to be "busy" with work that day but letting a coach down (or app) seems to help me. so I like that part...it will be an interesting journey nonetheless .
Brian, I started TR shortly before you did. I’m older than you and do the low volume plan. Still, I can identify with everything you said. Burnout is real. But, I can see so many times I wish I could talk to a coach about where I’m at and what should I do next. Good luck. I’m sure you will grow. BTW, you have really gotten a ton stronger in the last two years. You probably are just outgrowing the program.
On the TR forum I always recommend going LV and adding recovery and endurance rides. It is amazing how many people are doing the medium/high volume plans and fitting in the kinds of things that where how they came to love cycling in the first place. Re: coach - I think I will be contacting a coach in the next couple of weeks to see if I can get a 'self-coached athlete consult' and do that every 3-4 months. Hoping to check in on my plan and bounce some questions off them and get advise without having someone tell me what to do all the time. lol.
Thanks @brent - such a pleasant comment and youre right, I have put on a lot of tools in the past 2 years, so overall they did a great job, but I think I just reached the end of the journey on their old set up - the new set up - if it had been announced earlier is exactly what I would do. But too late - I gotta boogie and try coaching! Craig - that advice is so spot on and it is the same advice I have given to people, but then I do something really dumb - its weird to look back on now and still be mystified why I was doing HV - I like your hybrid approach of having someone look over your shoulder and be that outside perspective - smart!
I think for training machine learning is the way to go...it will get refined quickly according to the amount of data the learning model gets if trainerroad has chosen the appropriate features.
It will become obviously better than a coach on training aspects as there are many variables that research has not found yet that may result in greater performance ( also it can vary between person to person).
If you select the right variables, the machine learning model can maximize the objective.( That may be a higher FTP or any kind)
It will automatically find out which variable you need to adjust and by how much so that maximum gain can be achieved in the most effective way.
I don't know how trainerroad utilises it or what are all the variables they have selected, but I think it's the way forward.
I agree AND I mostly love that they have the courage to embark on something that audacious. I think it will take some time though and I think the data is not always relating to humans - like in their last podcast they mention a study that showed tremendous gains and then they asked the subjectcs to keep going and they said no...that's where the data doesn't always tell the whole story (I do think the mini-interviews after the workouts will help with that tho)...I think I'll skip that wait and see and just go with coaching since I'm getting older and only have so many fast years left - can't wait - gotta move! LOL There is still a lot of glory for me to seek on my mid-pack finishes!
Great video. I'm guessing that the burnout wasn't great at the time, but its good you didn't walk away for 6+months and are trying something that will keep you happy and loving cycling. Thats the important part.
I used TR for 16 months and don't regret it, but I did low volume and added 2 recovery rides and 2 long endurance rides on the weekend, and was up around 12hrs/week. I looked at the MV/HV plans and just did not think I could get through without hating cycling. I'm mystified by the number of people I see on the TR forum doing MV/HV plans that don't do the things they love about cycling every week and agonize over switching a SS workout to long endurance ride or missing a workout.
This comment is so perfect - your TR recipe of LV + a couple Z2 rides is perfect, simple and liekly effective for the majority of us - no doubt! Also, your comment about agonizing is so perfectly true. I would often avoid outdoor rides, group rides ect cause it wasn't on my plan and I didn't want to over do those impromptu rides and then pay the price trying to get back on the plan. That catch-22 thing is real - if you're not compliant its your fault, if you don't listen to your body its your fault (thats not just TR by the way, any program would have this conundrum) - I am hopeful that the adaptive training from trainerroad is a great solution. I appluad them tackling something so complicated and risky, I htink it is is very brave for their company and I wish them nothing but massive success!
Interesting timing. I just adjusted my Low volume TR plan by swapping out the First interval of the week with a Zwift race. Thank you for addressing the topic! I’m looking forward to your results with a coach. No pressure Coach 😀
I wish I would have dropped down to MV or LV and added outdoor z2 rides more often - I know my it was my own psychology - ohhhh thats the hardest one eh...OK I want it. #dummy LOLOL
@@BrianDavisraces That’s what makes this so interesting.....”figuring it out”. Not sure how the AI at TR will go but bottom line.....we are all different and “figuring this out” is a good chunk of the fun. Thank you for posting and sharing your findings!
Burnout is real, I've been through it twice. So far so good this season. We have some close examples on what a coach can do for a motivated athlete.
Good point on the example - he's a good one to emulate - whatever he does seems to work - so just do that! I hope TR's new program is a huge success I still really like TR, I just wish I would have listened to my own advice - SSBMV (or even LV) +some z2 rides - not sure why I pushed myself so hard for so long and got so little benefit.
@@BrianDavisraces no one ever says: don't do something, just sit there! In training that is advice we need listen to between sessions. I was about to start adding more sweet spot work and Dylan's video came out. So instead I'm adding more endurance work. The first SS block I didn't see any improvement in my ramp test but it stayed stable. Going from TBMV to SSBLV (and being careful with adding any more work) was a bit too much but now I'm adding about 2 hours/week.
Hi Brian,I can tell you my experience. After a year of TR I am completely exhausted. For sure I have seen some improvements but I was losing the taste of cycling. I took two weeks off. Probably I choose a plan too demanding. I kept my TR membership because I would like to try adaptive workouts. I don't know much about the subject but it looks something like xert. In any case, I'm very curious. However, I must admit that training on TR the results are visible. Maybe considering what I have to do I could have chosen a lighter workout.
my exp too - it works - but it kinda wrecks you along the way and thats finally become clear to me. I am keeping my TR sub too and looking forward to comparing whjat the coach suggests for me vs. what their system is projecting for me whenever it becomes available. The release seems quite premature, but then again, overdue if that makes sense. I think as so many commenters here are saying using the old TR platform for LV and then adding in some fun miles and Z2 miles would be the best overall appraoch. I am not convinced of that!
Hi Brian, definitely the right decision, as I wrote few months ago- it’s worth it, physical and more important- mental. Tell us how it’s go and good luck! Max
I'll be posting a bunch about the process, the differences and the pro/con of coaching - it should be interesting and I'm excited to be making this chnage. It was time!
Great video, good luck.
I used TR in the past also and could not follow the program after awhile. Too demanding. I bought one of Dylan's program for this winter and it was great. Saw improvements and did not bury me. Can't wait to see how it goes for you.
Oh thats good to hear, do you mind sharing how much his program is for other people reading? If not, no biggie, just curious - I'll be covering the cost subject in an upcoming video, would be nice to hear the ranges that exist.
@@BrianDavisraces no problem, plan was 79$US for a 8 weeks program. Was not sure with what plan to start with because i was interested in 2 of them so i wrote him a message and he pointed me in the right direction. Was a bit stretched for time so it was a low volume one, 6 to 7 hours per week. Will now start a 4 weeks block periodization plan @ $49. You can see some of his plans on his website. Links automatically to your trainingpeaks account.
Nice and easy
Wise decision. TR works the 1. season then stagnations and you will end up with a mental and physical burnout. TR base can be used as a shorter Block Periodization (coming back from sickness or holydays) and thats it!!! Polarized training is the right way to go
This was exactly my experience. like every letter in this comment I am in total agreement with now. Well said.
I am currently training with a coach who follows a more polarized approach. Right now we are working on a muscular endurance base which has some medium efforts and high and low cadence work.
From reading responses on here and Reddit, many folks misunderstand what zone 2 rides are. These aren't necessarily "slow" like people say often say. A good zone 2 ride is more about steady state power/heart rate that is right around LT1. For me, this means a flat, upper zone 2 ride of an hour is around 20 mph.
My normalized power and actual power for an hour and half zone 2 ride is about the same as a a sweet spot TR ride of the same time length. The overall TSS is lower, however, and the training stress is much more manageable and builds upon fat burning adaptations and not do much emphasis on the glycolytic pathways which I think is good for raising the aerobic floor of the athlete.
great comment, I am learning about how wrong I was about Polarization - it is way more fun than I had antipated previously.,
When did you get into cycling or what made you interests in it
Great question! I got into it originally to not be fat then evolved into loving to compete.
Looking forward to seeing how you progress with your new coach..........
Me too B - I'm excited to walk through it with everyone on here too. Should be pretty interesting. I plan to keep my TR subscription and eventually I'll be able to compare the coach rec. vs. the trainerroad adaptive model in real time if everything works the way I think it will. Should be interesting.
Sounds like a good idea to make the switch, but which app will you be using for intervals instead of TR?
A lot of coaches use Training Peaks to prescribe workouts and you can push those workouts directly to Zwift or your head unit.
yeah I was concerned about this when I switched, but trainingpeaks as Eric mentions is perfect - it ports right over into Zwift or into Wahoo for outdoor. Very smooth process!
Good luck with the new strategy, Brian!
Thanks Renzo, I'm super excited to see what changes it results in physically and mentally!
The racing year is over how do you feel about using a coach vs trying a low vol training plan.
I'm working with Zach to find a time where we can deep dive this a bit - I think I learned some things about myself and training that will help everyone - stay tuned!
@@BrianDavisraces awesome I look forward to it. Thank you.
What's that thing (mini desk or table?) over your handlebars? Do you have a link for that? Thanks!
Yeah it’s cool. Call Padbone amzn.to/2MoGoYA
Good video Brian. TR has it's following and I see many of your followers are subscribers and loyal. On another vlog I made the point that to follow TR is to essentially be self coached. I will be interested to see how well the TR AT platform works out. I am sure long term it or another AI platform will work well. I use a personal coach and am very pleased. I think you will be as well.
Thanks Al, I'm wishing them all the luck in the world, I just had to make a change no matter what. Looking forward to having the bespoke coach experience and hopefully blasting through this plateau! Thanjks for the comment - well said.
Man I had the same thing. I took a year off after TR!
A good coach is a step up for sure.
If you have a good local coach they can set up your outside workouts based on the routes (particularly for me in California). Unless you’re planning to sit on the trainer every day a lot of time is “lost” when going outdoors. When trainer road gave me 20min sweet spot there’s only a couple hills or very long flats close to me to cover this. And predetermined intervals are basically impossible. So makes sense if a coach can say warm up to here, zone 3/4 here, rest here, etc. otherwise you just end up recreating the trainer road outdoor workout yourself. Part of why I like polarized. You basically just noodle to good spots then hit it hard and dominate Strava segments :)
Interesting take - around here flat, straight, quiet roads are the norm, so no problem with intervals here...but...what I like about your comment is that expressing polarization is actually a lot of fun - this is something that I am just learning, I always had this opinion that it would borign, but the opposite is true, it is way more fun to go REALLY fast or really relaxing to go REALLY slow. It fits my body and style very well.
I have used coaches and seen the benefit. I am starting to think that polarised is the way to go. I still use TR to run the workouts. I really think that Xert is way ahead of the game. Could see myself only using Xert and FulGaz in the future. Good luck, interesting to see how it works out. Have you got a specific KPI/target that you are trying to hit?.
I agree on Xert - its amazing looking - but I just can't get into learning more about it for whatever reason. Its on me, thats for sure. As for KPI's - I'll be doing a video specifically about that soon - I am trying to make them not racing related and be more metrics, but my goals might be a bit lofty vs. reality so I still need to nail them down a bit. I am leaning toward a larger max power number (based on starting strength workouts) and looking at FTP of course, but then I am really excited about the overall duration at "peak" fitness - which is pretty hard to decipher, but like the video shows the red bars - I like being 90% fit for a 60 days rather than 98% fit for 20 days if that makes sense.
I guessed right 😁....can I ask how much it cost for a coach? You can give a range if you don't want to say exactly how much.
You can get an online program for 70 dollars Robic who coaches for some world tour riders and also that youtuber Jasper the pilot. That's a program for 3 months and more personalised I think based on hours. It's not personalised. Based on your hours he outs something together for you.. base climbing sprinting ... so for around 100 dollars you get some access to a world tour coach. You can apply some discount if you also follow Jasper
Great info here - thanks for adding that. I'll cover the costs in a future video, but this range is accurate for the lower end coaching options.
That's truly TR's goal, more time using their product. More cashflow. And more time doing the same workouts that create immense burnout over years of use. You nail it beginning at 4:07 - Private coach is the way to go if you have the $$$
so far so good, I 'm digging the coach and mostly digging the polarization approach - it was much more fun.
Same thing happened to me. With trainer road I increased my ftp by 50 Ina couple months. And then all of the sudden I was totally burnt out and had no idea what to do. I’m still in the midst of the burn out but feeling better. I’m not going to follow their plans anymore. Listen to your body. Do that.
Yeah it certainly will give you a boost, but the juice may not be worth the squeeze in the long run. A think they have to provide crazy results to keep subs, but I think a longer term build up is more realistic (even if no one wants to hear that). Looking forward to making strides with less risk of flaming out!
Thanks for a fantastic intro Brian!! Can't wait to see what we can do together!
BOOM! Lets knock it out brother. I'm ready, willing and able to make some changes! Thanks for your time and talents Zach, I know everyone is excited to see our progress.
Nothing beats a good coach!! Btw, forgot to mention on last weeks video - when you’re at the back of the pack take a caffeine gel, wash it down with sport drink. Draft some more. THEN Attack! Don’t do it after the attack silly!! And you absolutely should’ve soft-pedaled, recovered, took a gel, and waited for the next group. You only Time Trial in no-mans land if it’s the last 30% of the race. Then you TT with everything you got to hold them off till the line. Arm chair Quarterbacking is fun!!!!
Well I llike that gameplan - makes a lot of sense. In retrospect, that would have been the right call, but I can't imagine doing a voiceover of me purposely fading back for 5 minutes waiting to get swept up - that would be have been tough to watch. GLORY or die - well I die a lot. LOL. Thanks Bobby - no joke, those are really good tips!
The fact that TR has moved to an adaptive model is to some extent an admission that they realize their training model creates a lot of stress. Therefore they are using soft measures of stress to detune training for a few days. This is opposite of 80/20 which creates stress but then pulls back for a day(s) to allow recovery. So in essence whether TR will ever admit, even though TR says they do not believe in 80/20...they are migrating toward it.
this is a great point. like - really strong point. I'll have to borrow this (and credit you) in future discussions about this subject. Prescribing burn out is not a growth model so I am happy to see them adapting so to speak to the reality of the user experience. Kudos to them, but yeah, I little less defense on polarization would prolly be wise. No reason for them to be upset about people doing things that seem to work for them - despite what a study tells us...
This is not 200% correct. As adaptive trading only changes according to the feedback you give to the AI... if you tell the AI that workout was tough or not achievable then it will adapt the next workout to be more achievable. If you say it was easy then it will adapt the next workout to be more challenging... so it’s not scaling back a model that causes to much stress is adapting it to become more achievable for more people...
@@tyroneoosterberg6342 I have got a feeling that they are seeing a lot of drop out given the constant intensity they prescribe. We all understand how it works but the question is why do they need this unless they are seeing high drop out rates
@@scooterc2006 listen to the podcast on TR CZcams channel about the adaptive training and you will see. They explain it as I wrote it... no speculation just relaying the facts TR put out about it, and nope not an employee either!
@@scooterc2006 you will see TR state that after every workout you will be asked to complete a survey about your workout and depending how you answer this is how you future trading sessions will adapt... so if you say it was easy next workouts will be harder/more challenging if you say it was hard next workouts will be easier/more achievable if you say it was manageable training will not change...
Did you see TR's announcement/discussion/changes just dropped beforehand. I don't use them, or anyone, I'm past it but still keep an eye on things.
Yeah. I mention it at the end. It’s all very cool sounding but it’s trying to replicate a coach - so - I’ll just get a coach.
No problem, I posted the comment before the end of your post. 😖 cringe. I'll get me coat on the way out.
So you made it 6.5 steps up the ramp past your current FTP. That equates to an increase in FTP from your previous test... From the video, it looks like your previous FTP was 308. The test probably assessed your new FTP in the neighborhood of 320, for an improvement of 4%. Is that close? It was curious that you didn't mention the result in the video.
I totally screwed up the editing but yes you nailed it 308 to 319 - not bad - same as last year interestingly. Like. Exactly the same. So no doubt a good springboard to start with more intensity!
Before Dylan came out with video about polarize training vs threshold, he also came out with 6hr, 10hr and 15hr training plan. Ihave always been following his approach to his training with 2~3 high intensity days, with the rest at 65% of FTP and been getting good consistant result.
this is a great comment - a coach is not at all neccessary - it is a pretty simple formula, I just think the coach will help me and help the channel with some of those nuance areas like alterations, injury, nutrition etc. but yeah, the structure of training doesn't have to be overly complicated - thanks for adding that!
Looking forward to your future videos and on coaching training programs and nutrition. This bring awsome insights in advance training information to everyone. Thank you
It’s now two years later, any regrets?
No. But I do think their product has evolved so much now with adaptive that it might be A LOT better now. Nothing against what it was - I just used it incorrectly tbh
Good decision. Training at threshold workout only works for a couple of months. Polarized is the long term solution.
I have been thinking the SS stuff is a great way to get back to rough shape, then polarization gets the final polish - maybe the anser is to use both methods depending on the time of year.
It was the best decision i ever made going from trainerroad to a private coach... been working my weaknesses over the last 3 months and starting to see big gains now
Weakness is my strength. If I covered that I would have no strengths.
thats deep @brent - had o read that a few times to catch it. Nice one....@giorgio exciting to hear that approach is working for you - I'm looking forward to sharing with #racefam how it all comes together!
Wish you luck for you new Odyssey.
Thank you antonio, I appreciate the comment and the interest - it should be a good few months!
The coach is very smart. I ran into the same problem.
right on! already feeling SO MUCH MORE in love with bikes again.
Bruh, I don't blame you. This has been a long time issue with TR but never came to light until Dylan made an opinion. High Volume is for unicorns though. I remember CEO Nate Pearson mentioning you in the podcast about dropping to a lower volume because he saw your video of you having problems trying to keep the intensity. Although TR can make you faster, your fitness doesn't last that long. To be honest, I think the only plan that makes sense is the low volume with added base rides. Sucks you're leaving TR but I do think a coach is a better option if you can afford it. Having a coach is way out of my budget though, so I gotta stick with TR.
I recall that mention too, but it was based around not being compliant - that's the catch again - not performing? you must work your compliance -- oh you're burnt out? Thats on you for not listening to your body ... again I certainly love TR, and that catch 22 applies to any coach or program ever - but I think it would be easy enough to work through that with automated tools (even a typeform survey would work) buuuuuutttttttt the ML adaptive training thing looks really cool and I think it will be a hugely popular and much needed addition to their program - kudos to them for the courage to rethink the approach and pivot. I'll be keeping my TR sub, so hopefully I can do some cool comparisons with the Adaptive thing and the coach thing based on each ones recommendations.
Great decision Brian 👍🏼
Thanks, it was a tough call but a few weeks ago as I was getting crushed in those races despite 10 hours a week on the trainer I just had to make a change, it just wasn't heading the right direction for what I want out of cyclign and race performance.
Keep up the fun and rest up. I had some of my best gain last Spring when I experimented with 2 higher intensity days and the rest of the week was around 100-110 hbm. Looking forward to hearing what you learn from your new coach! Ride on!
This simple formula I think is all that's needed for a HUGE majority of cyclists - it doesn't have to be super complicated to be effective - keep it up Jesse - I'll see you out there soon!
family+wisco beers+yoga stretchings+keeping it real. From Madison
mmmmmmm beeeeeer
I just watched the podcast on adaptive training with TrainerRoad. It looks .awesome , I bet you’ll be back
I'd be fine with that - I have no ill will with TR - if it works then that would be great! It will be interesting to see how these 2 directions compare and contrast. I'm keeping my TR sub, so it should be interesting to see how the ML adapts to the coaches workouts once they roll that out across all accounts I'll be able to see it better and I look forward to it.
What’s your ftp watt per kg and five mins power per kg.
Hey Tim, that test (which I edited extemely poorly to show the results) was 319 and I weigh 177 pounds which makes my FTP 3.9w/kg
My best 5 minute from 2021- (from this same ramp test) was 389w which puts me at 4.8w/kg
thanks!
B
@@BrianDavisraces oh I see. Yes. Doing some longer zone 1 in three zone model is better. Mix in with some Sweet spot and zone 3 workout is better than zone 2 all day everyday. I usually do four days of zone 1 workouts ranging from 1 to three hours and make sure I don’t have any heart rate decoupling over 5 %. Two to three days doing some hard hard threshold or vo2max.
@@BrianDavisraces also choose your races wisely. Your are better off with flat races. Unless you can increase watt per k , it’s hard to compete with someone like me on hilly races i weight 59 kg with 253 ftp.
@@user-ov7sx5ur6u good input. My pr was 4.2 so yeah hills are not my friends. I think I could bring that 5 min way up and my sprint is by far my strength - I’m hoping we can really focus on 1 hour Crits with training. I just don’t like racing over 2 hours at all so training will start to reflect that now which makes me happy! Thx. Great comment and I appreciate that insight based on my #’s
@@BrianDavisraces good luck. 🍀. Remember it’s the process that counts. We are all just the regular Joe’s doing over best.
Well done on you ...
Thanks - it will be interesting and I think I'll have a good perspective on the whole thing in a few months. SHould make some good videos!
I've switched to a coach from TR for the very same reasons , totally exhausted , not TR's fault , i just needed a fresh approach , the difference has been phenomenal .
This fills me with happiness to read. I'm excited to try a different approach and I also harbor no ill will - it's been great for adding certain elements to my overall fitness, but I want more POP!!! LOL
Perhaps your TR Plan was too high volume? TR always suggests a lower volume plan.
Also Dylan’s video only looks at high volume plan, which, again, TR doesn’t recommend for 99% of users. Stoked you’re trying something new.
Agree 100% - I totally screwed up by doing HV...coach has me doing way more Z2 rides with few but harder HIIT sessions. Last year got Covid before Tour of Americs Dairyland, so never really got to see how things panned out with Coach vs. TR, but yeah TR is a great program overall. No complaints
I see what you did with the title. The same day TrainerRoad teased with Adaptive Training.
Joking aside: talking about a burnout isn't easy, so thank you bringing it out in the open!
SEO is always on my mind. Lolol.
Watched this as I was doing a TrainerRoad workout. 😐
I was doing a TR workout when Dylans video came out too - LOL - I was like uhhhhh, YES this is exactl what I have been feeling. The decision to leave was made prior to Dylans video, but his points drove it home for me for sure. TR is great, I think I should have just been WAY smarter about the volume of structure and then mixed in Z2 rides around those. It can be that simple, not sure why I was constantly trying to cook myself.
@@BrianDavisraces best of luck with the coaching. Hopefully Wisconsin will see some racing this summer so you have a chance to flex those gains.
I am surprised that TrainerRoad made the mistake of crazy amounts of intensity in high volume plans. This involved ignoring all of the research about how athletes react to exercise, which is difficult to understand. I am not sure who was most influential in causing this to happen, but it would be ironic if it was Chad (who appears to pay a lot of attention to the research), as he said in one of their podcasts that he had done the high volume plan for a few weeks and had to give up.
it seems like a good fit for maybe 5% of the people that subscribe to TR, so then it begs the question about why even have the HV plan or even adding additional gates. Obviously they are making HUGE chnages to their approach now, but I think some of that could have been handled better in the past without needing crazy technology even
its not volume per se, it is the volume of intensity
Very true! Thanks for adding that.
Chat's with BDR on Zwift "Hey when's your next video dropping?" Gets off Zwift to see the "next" video dropped 4 hours ago. Oops. Need more rest, beer and donuts. Keep up the good work BDR.
thanks John, good to chat with you brother - I'll be on Zwift A LOT more now too! Kinda looking forward to that.
They do strongly advocate against the HV plan in their podcast. MC is more than enough for most. They’re also releasing Polarized plans anytime now
Yeah - can't wait to see how the polarized experiment goes there - its gonna be really cool to see how that all unfolds.
Smart move going to a coach. Its way better having a personal coach
def looking forward to the personalization and flexibility and mostly the listening to the body thing coming to the forefront - I think as an older rider that becomes more and more important .
@@BrianDavisraces I'm a cyclist myself i used the sufferfest for my first year. Then I thought well all the pros that are on world tour teams have a coaches. So I thought what do I have to lose. Yes its way more expensive but performance gains were worth the money. Having some one tell me this is what you're suppose to be doing rather then a app tell you what do to. A coach will readjust your plan lets say due to injury or illness. The app won't. There are just lots of things coaches do that apps just cant do.
I would never criticise your decision, but haven’t Nate and the team repeated over and over on the podcast that high volume is too for the vast majority of people. I will continue to watch your videos and see how you get on. Best of luck.
Yes, you are 100% right they do say that often, but its still there in the program - I think if only 10% of users could really benefit from HV, then they should really just take it off the options - which is kinda whats going to happen with the ML thing I think. My guess is they can show people gains in multiple metrics OTHER than solely FTP, which will keep people engaged longer (like SUF with 4DP), so I think it is smart to make this huge change of course, but it probably could have been addressed in the past with less fancy programming required IMO. I wish them nothing but raging success and I'll happily sign back up after experiencing coaching if I think TR is the better choice. Its kinda fun to mess around and try new stuff though no matter what.
@@BrianDavisraces I think that is all fair. I like the TR grand father you in at the price you are paying. I have no incentive to leave. Being 51 my gains are limited. I enjoy what they give me and I look forward to seeing the Adaptive Training being released. I do use FulGaz as well to make those indoors ride more interesting and really like running them both at the same time.
FTP =319 watts! Nice work!
thanks darren - workiing on it every day!
Did you arrive at this before TR announced their new ML format? Coming up with the same conclusion as Dylan Johnson is a pretty lame reason. Use their new format and self-coach yourself better....
Yeah, I paid for coaching a few weeks ago and we started last week...so all this decision and ground work was done PRIOR to Dylans video and of course before the TR announcement. I still like TR and am really rooting for the ML thing to be a huge success for them, no ill will, I just needed to find something that didn't try to make me hate the bike.
I think Dylan Johnson is spot on , the problem is you just assume they know best and you're being a whimpy snowflake so you blindly follow the plan . As your experience grows you realise this is totally insane . I'm keeping my subscription as its a good stable platform to work from .
Agreeing with some else is lame?
Your coach said you had a plan doing intervals six days in row? What TR plan subscribes that? That seemed factually incorrect. I don’t by the the whole burnout routine. If you listen to the TR podcast they preach rest all the time, additionally they preach users to use their low or mid volume plans. I don’t know, I think some of this burnout is on you the athlete who should be listening to their body cause only you really know best. Your coach won’t fix that.
Ok. But. I was burned out. The HV plan is 6 days a week and my coach did fix it but I hear ya - I made my own choice to do HV. It fits maybe 5% of athletes. Really shouldn’t have even been a choice imo
@@BrianDavisraces Got it, but the HV plan is six days on the bike. Two of those are recovery days. Two intensity days and two days of tempo and threshold. Part of my point was your coach stated it was six days of intervals which just isn’t true. Anyhow, hope the coach isn’t working out for you. Too steal a quote from one of my mates, Ride fast, take chances!
Brian, you just need to put your ego aside and do a lower volume training plan. Your coach will help you with this revelation.
this is true - its not 100% ego driven, part of it was trying to perform their highest program so I could accurelty review the program to go videos on how well it works...so if I did lower programs and added in my own other rides, it would make it hard to express how TR would work for someone else....that was my thinking originally, but then I just kept doing it and that was not wise, I should have dropped to a lower volume for sure. No question.,
Totally appreciate the need and desire to change and freshen things up, but to prevent burn out all you needed to do was maybe change to Mid Volume and supplement with Z2. I don’t think TR actually recommend High Volume unless you’re and top athlete and can handle it.
Yeah that's not true. Based on my training history and training availability of 10-12+ hours a week, TR's plan builder recommended SSBHV base which is an awful plan.
@@ericlehman53 I can only assume you're not a top athlete. I train 10-12+ hours also, but use MV and supplement with Z2, I've even considered LV and adding even more Z2. Visit the TR podcast and forums, plenty of good advice there. But going from 289 to 322 (Oct-20 to Feb-21) AND losing 6kgs, i cant really knock TR.
@@ssbagley I am not knocking TR because lots of people get gains on their program. However, once an athlete gets beyond low and mid volume plans, TR's higher volume plans are pretty bad.
My points are: 1) TR isn't just recommending SSBHV for "top athletes." Plenty of regular athletes have an extensive training history and more than 10-12+ hours a week to train and plan builder would assign them to high volume plans. 2) SSBHV, with 5 sweet spot workouts a week, is not something I have never seen any coach recommend that other than TR. Frank Overton, the guy who popularized sweet spot training, says his training plans usually have 2-3 days of sweet spot a week, and he defines sweet spot by a wider range than TR at .83-.97 of FTP compared to .88-.92. 3) Even top athletes who accumulate huge TSS numbers don't do approach base training with weeks upon weeks of sweet spot heavy rides. They do lots of zone 2 (below LT1) rides.
I think what I find most weird is how many people fall all over themselves defending Trainer Road even when it burned them out and they gave up on it. Now everyone is excited about their adaptive model when Xert has been doing this for a long time already... for HALF THE PRICE of Trainer Road. Bizarre.
It is so interesting that Xert has such an uphill battle with user acceptance vs. TR - I think people REALLY appreciate the podcast so much that they are willing to overlook some things in exchange for that content.
@@BrianDavisraces But the podcast is FREE!
Here. Train at high intensity on a trainer day in and day out. Don't go outside and ride. It's not as precise and scientific. And we all want to be evidence-based, don't we!? Yes, we do. What!? You're burned out!? No way! I don't get it! HTFU.
P.S. Polarization is not the answer, imo. Dylan's representation of the science on this matter is either incompetent or deceptive. E.g., he claims that the science shows that polarized training gets the same results. But he's citing a study that compares polarized training to only the base phase of a periodized plan with sweet spot training, leaving out any comparison to cyclists who've finished a specialization phase. Naughty, naughty, Dylan.
interesting point on the science, I think both TR and Dylan could use a break from science and start thinking more about the human behind the efforts. That's kinda why I am landing on a coach.. I certianluy could do it on my own to some extent, but I know I need that accountability aspect (well not need, but want it) and the more people I see associating with polarized the more I think it fits what I want out of the sport. I don't want to go hard every day. I like going really easy and then really hard (like a crit) and it suits my base physiology as more sprinterish - so it will be interesting to see how the fitness comes and how the results in actual races bear out. Either way it will be a goldmine for content! and that's whats really important here! LOL
I don’t get how you can blame TR for riding your self into a hole. You have openly admitted in previous videos that you don’t fuel your rides properly... this is a huge part to it! Not only that TR openly state that the high volume plan needs to be followed by a decent diet and recovery plan, which includes sleep and a rather low stress life environment...
I feel most people that this can only be self inflicted and no blame can be attributed elsewhere!
Ultimelty it is 100% on me - agree....but...if I had a coach prescribve a program that tore me apart, I would have fired the coach - so thats what I did. I fired them.
@@BrianDavisraces would you have fired the coach if you never gave him the feedback to say how you were feeling so he could then make the adjustments?
Ultimately you have control to swap out workouts for others if you were feeling tired or run down. So just like giving your coach the feedback needed to change your plan, you should have changed your own plan accordingly. Would you not agree?
I think you have a misconception about the TR Adapting Training. You said "what are they going to adapt me to?", but it's not adapting you, it's adapting your training to your needs based on a variety of inputs. Admittedly I stopped watching after you said "we already have the technology to do this.. it's called a coach". That's a ridiculous statement, 1 - a person isn't technology, 2 - it's very shortsighted as there are some people that aren't looking for that personal interaction, level of commitment or can even afford it.
Good points. I’d encourage you to watch the whole thing though.
about time
I'm stoked to make this change - thanks Lee - I saw your DM too and your week looks daunting, but doable. I think I could handle that and it still looked fun and engaging. Who is your coach?
@@BrianDavisraces Matt Zimmer of project echelon
TR very over rated. See Dylan's vid.
You definitely missed the point of that video lol
@@justintongol7581 What is the point you feel I missed? TR is thought of as THE go to solution for so many and yet that is not the case and many tire out on it. Seems the definition of over rated. Have you seen Dylan's vid?
@@williambob111 I used TR for 16 months before stopping recently. Personally, I think if you go into TR with the view that it is a tool to aid the self-coached athlete and the plans are intended to be customized by you, for your goals, and to accommodate your constraints (recovery, time/week), it can be very useful. I got a lot out of it. The problem I think I see is a lot of people view TR as 'the coach' , don't customize the plans for their particular needs, and then 'fail' or burnout.
It's a good system if you don't know much and need a platform. If you get a coach for a dew months you will learn way more and then progress to some form of self coaching over time and coaching others. Robic who coaches Jasper and some world tour riders is only 70 dollars for a 3 month program based on your time.
I certainly saw it...(I think Justin was saying you missed the point of my video which essentially agrees with Dylan) - I have the added credibility of having lived the TR program on HV - come to think of it, I should have mentioned that part - dang - I always wanna edit more after I publish...its the life...and I can tell you after 2 years and suffering that burnout - it is too much! Maybe their new stuff will fix it, but I can't risk hanging around to find out.