Fandom Mandela Effect: The Nature of Determination and Red SOULs
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- In this episode of Fandom Mandela Effect, we discuss if the red SOUL in Undertale represents determination, or if there's a deeper truth at play. Just what is the nature of determination, and could the other humans wield the power to SAVE and RESET?
We'll explore what it means to be determined, discuss SOUL traits, and whether or not Frisk is unique in their abilities, all while highlighting pieces of Undertale lore that are often overlooked. Note that this video focuses strictly on red souls in Undertale, as Deltarune is incomplete. Previously known as "Undertale: The Truth About Red SOULs and Determination," reverted to its original title as it seemed that was the most appealing.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
0:50 - Soul Traits
2:20 - Saving, Loading, and Humanity
03:59 - What IS the Red Soul?
For my Deltarune analyses: • Learning to Love Berdl...
Analysis Content: • The Truth About Papyru...
My Undertale webcomic, Inverted Fate: invertedfate.com/chapters
My Patreon: / dorked
My Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/invertedfate
Fundraiser for Sewer (now with Updates): gofund.me/6989ad02
#Undertale #Determination #UndertaleTheory #UndertaleAnalysis - Hry
EDIT: Looking for input on the title! Should I change it back to "Fandom Mandela Effect: The Nature of Determination and Red SOULs" or perhaps try "Red SOULs, Determination, and the Fandom Mandela Effect"? Thank you SO MUCH for 10k subs, and to everyone who has supported the sewer fundraiser. We're still dealing with issues (Attorney General couldn't help), so I'll include a link to that along w/ other cool stuff. Fundraiser for Sewer (now with Updates): gofund.me/6989ad02 | My Undertale webcomic, Inverted Fate: invertedfate.com/chapters |
For my Deltarune analyses: czcams.com/video/KueHgAZcV00/video.html
Analysis Content: czcams.com/video/4VfHhBh1c8c/video.html
My Patreon: patreon.com/dorked
My Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/invertedfate
the idea that the red soul is the power of "love" is an anime moment
Did you know that in the secret lab was said that the one who posses the soul of determenation (Frisk) was a legendery godlike being .
Monsters have the same legend , but there is a little bit diffrent .
That`s actually from where the symbol of the Dreemer family comes from .
In my personal theory , here`s how the humans in Undertale work .
There are humans with regular souls like the regular monsters .
There are humans with special gifted souls witch posses incredable abillities like save,reset and loading , which are equal to the boss monsters souls .
And there is one godlike human who posses the soul of determanation .
There are needed 1000 regular human souls to mach the power of boss monster soul .
And there are needed 1000 regular monster souls to mach the power of gifted human soul .
@@alexyordanov6250 It's never stated that a "soul of determination" belongs to a legendary being. All human souls possess determination. Alphys worked with the six human souls. It had nothing to do with Frisk.
@@Dorked
NO !!!
That`s my statement .
All the gifted souls have determenation .
It`s just that there is a special soul witch control the determenation itself .
Another evidence why frisk is special is that Flowey even aknolage that Frisk isn`t like the other six humans who fell in to the underground or anything he has seen before .
The Asriel fight also confirms it .
@@alexyordanov6250 Asriel never met the other humans, though. He was given consciousness via the determination extracted from their souls after they died. He compared Frisk/Chara to his own determination. Remember, it has been a long time since a human fell- long enough that adult monsters like QC and others cannot recognize a human on sight, Undyne has to ask for confirmation that Frisk is a human, and other factors. Toriel has dialogue if you reset in the ruins that basically says every human she meets feels familiar- suggesting the other humans had the power. I go over all this in the video.
Obviously, the Red Soul’s trait is Ball Game
We should all strive to be Ball Game.
duh
The power of ball game shines whitin you.
Frisk is fucking balling!?
Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.
Toby Fox: I'm gonna put so much important lore in *Ball Game*
Toby Fox is a master at 4D chess. Or 4D ballgames.
The greater mystery is hidden in a rarely appeared door and some rarely appeared characters
ball game has been haunting me for years dude. what does it all mean
@@gristen everything related to ball game is just guess, but since those colors are seldomly uses and can perfectly match to the color of the human SOULs, I don't think the colors are just randomly picked
@@user-ej7sr3ow8b oh its definitely intentional. but i still cant figure out what the red flag means...🚩😭
I actually had a theory that red soul trait represented "Freedom" or "Independence". You are only yourself when you're free or independent. This can also be supported via in-game mechanics like soul modes; unlike red soul mode every other soul shows some form of restricted movement, purple soul allows you move in specific lines, green restricts movement completely and blue allows for platformer type movement only red soul mode is when you're truly free to move anywhere you desire.
Ooh, that's a really interesting take, and not one I have heard before. o: I can dig it!
This unfortunately doesn't work since Yellow Soul is a powerup and is objectively better than Red.
You know? That’s a really good interpretation! And it really ties into Frisk/Chara’s (heck, even Kris’s) characters as well, too! Would certainly make the games’ messages that much more powerful, that’s for sure.
-DRINK UP THAT [smooth taste] OF [freedom]-
@@rendumguy7596 technically, whenever the soul is yellow in either deltarune or undertale, it's still turning the soul in a specific direction (upwards in UT, to the side in DR). while it's not necessarily a restriction, it's still involuntary.
I think this idea makes the "Despite everything, it's still you" moment even more powerful
The fact that other monsters can "force" a soul trait onto frisk during battle is still one of the most interesting things to me
It doesn't affect your DT/LOVE in any way but the colour changes completely
I like to think it's a part of monster magic- that they can force certain movement types on their target. Some of them tie into environmental conditions, like how purple represents being trapped in Muffet's web.
@@Dorked Maybe the red SOUL is just a representation of player stuff we control Frisk Kris and we name and talk to Chara which all sound like big ties to me.
maybe they don't exactly force it, but it's the own SOUL adapting to their magic attacks
(the blue soul thing sans and papyrus does is an exception tho)
@@Dorkedalso, in one of papyruse's And undyne's phone calls she literally says she turns hearts green, in hotland by one of the elevators.
While I did follow the red soul = DT thing, I never thought it was the only one with DT, just the one with the most. The "Love" thing in the manual does make sense though
Yeah, thinking it has the most isn't a bad thing by any means. But I have legit seen people argue that none of the other human souls had DT. It was WEIRD. O_o
Honestly it being love makes sense. It could be love, literal caring, or LOVE, depending on the choices you make. It fits in nicely.
@@fungalthing2217 Even that fits the idea of determination, which acts as a capacity for choice, no matter what choice you make.
@Mehpleb yeah Chara simply didn't have enough DT although they were determined more metaphorically aka ambious. The other humans are hinted at to have been able to reset with what Toriel says so yeah you could say that, especially considering those souls had their DT extracted for experiments in the true lab I believe although don't quote me on that.
@@Dorked i think it'd be extrodarinarily unrealistic for only specific people to have determination
humans, at a constant, do things due to the fact they have the determination to. the will to.
i am writing this because i want to, because i want to respond. thats determination.
hell even people who have become hopeless and extremely upset are (probably) determined to die
3:44 this is something that always irritates me a lot. Sans says he noticed an anomaly _caused by_ the player (or the human, it's unclear if he even knows the player exists). An anomaly is just something that differs from expected results, it's not a spooky name for the player.
I've seen fanfiction that takes this further, straightup introducing a cosmic entity called The Anomaly, which makes no sense (an anomaly from what?)
To be clear, I consider the anomaly to just be the way Sans interprets the saving and loading tomfoolery caused by Flowey and then players afterwards. I don't see it as a grand, cosmic entity or anything. I hope that clarifies things. But he does talk about "the anomaly" as a person in his battle dialogue. "i always thought the anomaly was doing this cause they were unhappy. and when they got what they wanted, they would stop all this."
@@Dorked i like to interpret it as a rare moment sans is completely wrong - he says "that was you, wasn't it?" right afterward, but you can get that dialogue on your very first save file. he's misinterpreting the same actions by flower as being caused by the player.
@@quantumwillow2734 there's a somewhat similar case if you open the game after getting a pacifist ending. Flowey gives a whole monologue about resetting the timeline, and it seems like he's referring to the player, but at the end it turns out that he was talking to Chara (or he thought he was, at least).
This makes you wonder if he even knows the player exists in the first place, or if he only knows about Save files.
Maybe Chara is the anomaly?
@@tyrellforrrester9827 I'm fairly sure that "the anomaly" was originally Flowey, and then it becomes Frisk (and by extension, us).
I feel like the red soul is just a combination of all soul traits and that's why it's able to change its mode either by monster magic or, in deltarune's case, willingly. Could just be the entire Ball Game.
That's certainly not a bad reading! It's one of the few interpretations that has more tangible evidence going for it, too.
It would explain why Kris can just go yellow all of the sudden
@@jamesanimations4885 we, not kris
Although papyrus is pretty confident about turning you blue
And sans is pretty confident when he does it
Almost like it's just an ability for them
And Undyne turns you green so she was confident it would work
Dosent necessarily disprove that theory either
I'm not sure though
@@bat2564 we don’t know who’s soul that is. It doesn’t have to be ours, we could just be in control without it belonging to us
One thing I always couldn't help but notice is that the other six soul traits can themselves act as SOURCES of determination. Someone who is patient has the determination to wait for the right moment to achieve their goal. Someone who is brave has the determination to push past their fear. Someone with integrity has the determination to stay true to themself no matter what. Someone with perseverance has the determination to keep working towards a goal no matter how much they struggle. Someone who is truly kind will have the determination to stay kind no matter how cruel the world around them is. Someone with a strong sense of justice has the determination to always do what they feel is right.
But maybe these were imperfect sources of determination, and some or all of the six souls might have failed because they ran into a situation that their specific core trait could not get them through. Perhaps the red soul, then, simply represents a more complete and flexible form of determination; not just a single specialized source of determination, but determination itself, with the potential to draw from all sources.
Nice observation
Exactly.
So red really is determination?
Really true
I wonder if fanworks have managed to help influence this, particularly Glitchtale.
Personally, I think the Red soul's trait would probably be some combination of all the other traits, or staying true to yourself. Anyway, I really liked this one, it'll probably help clean up a few misunderstandings. Great work on this one!
Here's a fun fact: Ironically, Determination in red has appeared more in Inverted Fate than the actual game.
And that is 100% because of the fandom mandela effect, haha. Though in the Ruins, Flowey was trying to connect Frisk to Chara, who also had a red soul, and in battles, red looks better as an accent color. Part 50 was Cake's decision, tho. I woulda had no color accent, but eh.
Oh, I'm certain fanworks are a contributing factor. Not a bad thing, but it's easy for fanworks to blur the line, like with what happened around Gaster.
I actually didn't know about DT not being in red text in UT until someone told me. It's actually a Mandela effect.
My personal theory is that the red soul represents hope. Asgore states that Frisk has “the same feeling of hope in their eyes” as Chara, who we know had a red soul too (and possibly red eyes).
Hope is a pretty reasonable interpretation, too! Especially since it's an act option during Asriel's fight.
How do we know that Chara had a red soul already ?
@@cybergreen6226 Their coffin.
@@Dorked Oh yeah, I didn't remember that ! Thanks !
The only problem is what kind of "Hope" is given to a world of dust and bones? (Aka is it still considered hope during Genocide Run?)
The whole yellow associated with determination thing really plays into my ideas about Deltarune right now. The save points are no longer yellow, and nor do they say you are determined. Artificial determination is also white, so it's possible that Kris has that, as Flowey was able to save despite his lack of soul due to the artificial determination he obtained. It's possible that's why their save points are white and not yellow. Saves also only appear in the dark worlds, so maybe there's a connection there as well.
It isn't really "artificial," it's DT extracted from other human SOULs.
@@choboy46 You'd be right on that front, bad wording on my part. Being injected with determination is different than just having it inherently, right? That's more what I mean. Like someone who normally doesn't have determination getting more through outside means.
No, not the yellow SOUL, it's the golden SOUL
The first save point in Deltarune says that you (Kris) had seen them before, and Kris up to that point had never been in a dark world, meaning they don't only show up in the dark world, they just haven't yet when we started puppeteering Kris
Or maybe determination doesn't exist in Deltarune
I've always been partial to Red being Love, both the good and the bad.
The fallen human, loving their family so much they'd throw away their life to unlock the cage their adopted family resided in
Asgore, so bound by a love for his people and for the children he lost, that he cannot bring himself to surrender, even when he knows he's only hurting himself more
Frisk, who only gains the afformentioned power to refuse death after having befriended every monster they could find, being so filled with love for this found family that they REFUSE to let go of it and start over
And by those same concepts, it can become an inability to let go...
Perseverance is a synonym for determination. So, if the red soul was determination, that would mean two souls are basically determination.
It's also worth noting that the other humans had a much rougher journey than Frisk, considering that Asgore wanted to kill them (and we know he can dodge and stuff).
While Frisk was the only one that fought photoshop Flowey and Asriel, they literally couldn't die against the former (and their friendships and growth underground contributed to their refusal in the Asriel fight)
Yeah, I think it's more meaningful for Frisk's friendships and journey to contribute to the whole refusal moment. Plus, Asgore is way more worn down by the time Frisk arrives and is trying to put off the fight. I think he legit just wanted them to finish him.
Honestly I don't think Asgore dodged previous humans' attacks, let alone actually wanted to fight them. He doesn't dodge at all against Frisk, he clearly doesn't want to fight them, and to me, this isn't at all because of how long it has been since a human fell down.
Either way though, the six humans did have a much more difficult journey compared to Frisk.
Asgore probably did fight harder against the other humans (he swore to kill them, he was FURIOUS after Asriel and Chara died), but the regret of doing that (plus the fact that Frisk is the 7th SOUL and he'd have to kill humanity after them) is probably why he didn't want to fight them
"Wanted to kill.them" [citation needed]
Actual quote in game "I never wanted.to hurt anyone, I jus wanted everyone to have hope"
Since monsters are weak against violent thoughts, maybe LOVE works the opposite way for them, making them weaker. Maybe with every child killed, Asgore grew weaker as his LOVE increased.
Thank you for this video. Back in 2016, there was a theory posited that all the children had the ability to reset (hence toriel's dialogue) and that Red actually indicated the trait of Love.
Yeah, I think that's one of the most reasonable takes, and I'm surprised it's not talked about as much.
This supports my take that the "true" frisk is evil.
@@TheRealSuperKirby I personally really doubt that. Frisk's name is only given in pacifist. Sure, you can be a jerk pacifist, but it's still only given in runs where nobody dies.
@@Dorked during genocide frisk brakes free of the players control and shows happiness when finding something new to kill. The only time in the whole game the show an emotion.
@@TheRealSuperKirby That's after gaining a lot of LV. And even then, Frisk acts independently other times. They get behind the conveniently shaped lamp. Their walk speed slows when approaching the shower in the true lab. There are other examples of this throughout the game. Sans describes them as running away with a smile in his pacifist judgment. They are described as showing other emotions and reacting in certain ways through context clues in dialogue, too. At the end of the day, their name is still only given in Pacifist. To assume any character in Undertale is wholly evil misses the point of the game's message.
This was a pretty well made video. I do feel like pointing out some small, admittedly pedantic, details that came to mind while watching though.
1. Red souls having determination doesn't necessarily make it impossible for other souls to have determination. As there's no reason that Frisk can't be kind or brave even if their soul is the "wrong" color. I think a good portion of people who think that the save/load stuff is unique to the red soul is from fanfic that tries to give each color/trait its own unique magic thing.
2. I feel that having Frisk having the soul trait of determination wouldn't necessarily downplay their character. Granted, this is probably more of a "chicken or the egg" thing, but souls are stated to be the culmination of a person's being. So it could be argued that Frisk having said hypothetical soul trait is a further expression of who they are rather than something imposed on them.
Point two is an especially valid one! I just think that a lot of people treat things like red = DT and Frisk being the only human to have the power as fact without digging deeper into it. Mind you, the Toriel dialogue is something you have to go out of your way to get, but it's just kinda a pet peeve of mine that so many fanworks have gone for stuff like that, haha. I'm one of those people who gets caught up in little details like that, so I wanted to bring some attention to it, admittedly.
@@Dorked this is just a "what if" scenario, but what if the color of the souls is what is most prominent characteristic in a human? assuming that every soul has a color for each prominent characteristic, but all souls are capable of doing what other do, yet, that one thing stands out. every soul can be kind, brave, patient, just, and many other characteristics. Determination is just another characteristic, but at the same time, DT can't exist in a vacuum, there needs to be something else behind DT, that being the motivation of doing something. Determined to be Just, Determined to be Brave, Determined to keep your integrity, but what is Determination without motivation. no one can be determined just because of determination's sake. Red could represent a immature soul, that which has determination, but no motive behind it.
Red is an interesting color, used both for Love and Violence. Blood and Lust. Red craves for a meaning, for it can be a violent one, or a loving one. it needs meaning, and that is why its terrifying. unguided, Determination can be used to kill, just to see what happens. guided determination allows for the human to fulfill a goal, the will of the monsters to be freed, determined to show the monsters a new life. in both instances, you are changing the surroundings, bringing a halt to the status quo and forver leaving a mark in the world. be it that of murder or freedom.
you, the player, are the guide in this scenario. you are the one that makes the choice, Violence or Mercy. Attack or Spare. to Kill, or to not Kill. the meaning of the Red soul is what we, the player, decide to do with it. we either love, or kill. but there's always that damned 3rd option. one of not caring, just going through. that pokes a massive hole in this, but at the same time, it makes perfect sense, since YOU havent decided to KILL everyone, or to SAVE everyone
@@Omegaweaponsguy2 I’ve always thought that the soul’s colour was dictated by its most prominent trait and that a human soul has all seven of them in different amounts, so to see another person say that too feels nice.
@@Dorked The other children had Save Files. Flowey uses some of them in his fight (2, 3, and 5, IIRC). He can't have just made them, as Frisk uses File 9.
Hope
"Don't lose *hope*, stay determined"
Hopes and dreams is the Asriel theme song.
Asgore explicitly states that you are the reason the monsters still have hope.
Toriel has lost hope by the end of the ruins.
It seems hope is intrinsically linked to the Dreemur family, and every major boss without a unique soul gimmick is a part of the Dreemur family.
I'd like to suggest Chara's morality (or Chara in general) for a Mandela Effect video.
There's a decent amount of stuff to cover for that, and it's always nice to hear people talk about it.
I second this so hard. There's so much evidence pointing away from the fandom interpretation, and sure Chara is a troubled kid, not some pure perfect angel like some overcorrect to, but it's nothing like what so many people claim. In fact, lemme help out a bit by listing a couple of quick pieces of evidence that could help sell the point. (And this is FAR from an exhaustive list)
1) The narration on the dog food bag in Alphys's lab suggests that Chara is pessimistic by default and/or with any deaths, but very specifically feeling optimistic in any run with no deaths thus far. In other words, Chara is happier when Frisk is being merciful.
2) All throughout the Ruins Chara is making comments like "It's just with the wrong crowd" and "don't bully him", in stark contrast to the semi-common fan headcanon that they're constantly whispering in Frisk's ear to get them to kill monsters.
3) Asriel's understanding of Chara's plan was "claim exactly six souls to break the barrier and free monsterkind", and Genocide-Chara remarks that "our plan" had failed, heavily implying that the plan was shared with Asriel, and thus that what they told Asriel was not a lie or half-truth. That really WAS the entire plan, not murdering all of humankind. (In the official Japanese translation, this is altered slightly to "Asriel's and my plan", clearing up precisely who the "our" refers to)
@@riluna3695 that's facts idk why the fandom is just stupid and likes to pick on them so much, I was on a debate on this with some redditor and this mf said chara is 100% evil in every route and I'm like 💀, he doesn't believe in the narrachara theory (even though it's made pretty obvious it's chara considering the narrator doesn't act like a narrator but as their own character) some others said that chara isn't stupid and that they wanted to kill the whole village and start another war because the monsters would see the true human nature and would be prepared to which I say where is the proof? Their proof is logic because "why would they go to the most populated part of the village if they didn't want to get attacked on purpose" even tho it's not said where in the village they went but oki.
@@user153xhzbso8e I hear you on that, and I'm glad to see more people who dig deeper and attempt to truly understand. Just be careful not to get so worked up defending Chara that you turn into a villain your own self :P
I've had discussions with a particularly intellectual person who still happens to believe that Chara is more evil than good, and we've each had our moments of "wait, that's a really good point..." in each direction. There are definitely some sticking points here and there that can be difficult to explain, but I stand by my girl (or whatever they may be) to the end. I just make sure I listen properly to the naysayers and judge their points properly, and take utmost care never to dismiss their ideas out of hand. It's just that more often than not, I have counterpoints for whatever someone tosses my way.
@@riluna3695 I'm not defending them aswell I don't think they're good or bad and how i wish I could have more debates where both me and the other guy bring up a point where even I say "wow that's actually good ngl" but instead I mostly get offenders that are just intitled to thier opinion, a guy said chara shows evil intent in pacifist (not soulless btw) so you can see where I'm coming from.
@@user153xhzbso8e Ah, I see now. Yeah, people love to treat their opinions and/or interpretations of events as ironclad facts, and they can get incredibly defensive when those ideas are challenged, even casually. It's important for everyone out there to remember that an attack to your interpretation is NOT an attack to YOU. That's something everyone struggles with, it's simply human nature to fall into that trap. It can be tough for me to back away from that and listen more critically, but it's always incredibly rewarding when I do it right, and that's whether I win the argument or lose it. It's the only way to grow and better yourself.
This may be tagged to one specific person, but I encourage every person reading this to do their best to keep this idea in mind. It will improve your life so much, you have no idea. I speak from a decade of experience.
I want to point out that not having a specific soul trait doesn't mean you can't be that trait. For example, you can be kind and patient at the same time. So really, a soul trait is just what one of the options you have the most, not the only one you have. So if RED=DETERMINATION that doesn't mean that only RED souls are determined, just that they are *more* determined than souls with other traits. However, we still don't actually know what the trait of RED souls are.
honestly trying to correct or change anything in the modern fandom is like trying to change that cars have circular wheels. it's so engrained that even if toby said something. it won't change at all
I love how there's an echo flower that says that it would take every monster soul to match the determination of just one human soul, and then asriel can break the barrier using only 6 human souls because he has every monster soul, equaling the power of the seventh human soul
Huh, how very interesting, the thought process about Soul Traits, I figured to just simply be that while every Soul has Determination the majority of Souls can have a Main Trait represented by the Soul Color alongside it or something like that, but your video has informed me quite a bit, very appreciated.
Oh yeah, I don't think any human is dominated by one personality trait, even if soul traits are intended as something more than just flavor text. I just think that at times people treat them as like the Only thing that matters.
@@Dorked hm, i see.
I think part of the problem is that Justice is already associated with yellow, which makes things confusing.
That's why I prefer to associate DT with gold rather than yellow specifically. But I also just don't see soul traits as a very big deal with any inherent special power to them.
@@Dorked If you go to Asgore's shop in Deltarune, you can see both a yellow and a golden flower, and they're different.
I think that was placed there specifically to specify Yellow ≠ Gold.
@@gabrielrochadasilva3183 also, there is no red flower!
I like to think determination is just a very saturated yellow
Also you need to have a lot of determination to bring people to justice so it makes sense it would be the closest to the color of determination but not quite
This was an awesome analysis! I always associated determination to the red color but giving it a second thought, I changed my mind a bit. your analysis described this all pretty well!
Either way, Undertale has an unceaseable amount of plot holes and unsolved mysteries, and seeing all these analysis and theories being broken down is truly interesting!
Oh yeah, and to be clear, I don't think linking red to DT is _bad_ . I just think it's good to look back and consider what's actually in the original game.
@@Dorked True! Not saying I dismiss the idea completely lol 😅
It's implied the previous human souls had the power even before Flowey, it's possible that the color mean nothing in regard to it, after all we both know that of the 6 souls wanted it, they could easily stop anyone else from resetting, they did so with Flowey, they could as well with Frisk, they don't do so because they actually gave up.
There are some unused echo flowers text that suggest at least one of the human souls wanted everyone to be happy, but in the end gave up, and possibly didn't bother to reset.
Yeah, there's so many ways to interpret the humans' motivations. Some might have even given their souls willingly since the only alternative was killing Asgore to go home.
Interesting. I'd also always assumed red was determination, but I did always think it was weird that Toby chose persistence as a soul trait alongside it. Those two words don't have the exact same meaning, and definitely have different connotations, but all the other soul traits feel a lot more distinct. The Red soul having a different trait associated with it makes sense. I like the suggestion of "Hope" I keep seeing in the comments, that's definitely a well-fitting word. .
Bit of a tangent here, but I see determination as a figurative capacity for choice. It what allows you to reset your mistakes in Undertale, it's what allows you to try different routes, and its a power that allows multiple monsters to change the course of your journey in terrifying ways.
And then we have Deltarune, where supposedly your choices don't matter. That message goes against the very nature of determination, which makes it interesting when its motif appears in Rude Buster (and subsequentially Lantern), and is directly referenced by Queen at the end of Chapter 2. In Rude Buster it makes sense, the battles are where you make the biggest choices. They're where you can either choose to fight or spare and get different endings of Ch1 because of it, and they're where you can choose to begin Snowgrave. Even if these choices don't matter, they're still choices.
But then Queen saying that all lightners have determination, that at least in the Dark World, they _all_ have the capacity for choice, even Kris. They even demonstrate this by creating a dark fountain at the end of the Chapter. So, why don't we have choice? It's an interesting dynamic, to where the player supposedly doesn't have choice, but clearly Kris does. Perhaps the soul we pilot Kris with, doesn't allow us access to its determination... after all, the game takes care to mention pretty much everything besides determination at the savepoints, and there's a much different file system that allows us to reload.
I like to think our presence is hampering Kris' choice, and they are struggling to fight back and make their own choices, even if it means making reckless decisions. Though I'd say we have a choice in a sense, since SNowgrave exists. It's just we're imposing our will on Noelle to pull it off.
@@Dorked Definitely in line with what I'm thinking, that the lack of choice is attributed to the player, not Kris. Which yeah, is what makes Snowgrave so interesting because we manipulate another party member into making that choice.
My personal headcanon ever since Spamton NEO was introduced was the Red Soul is the Soul of "Choice"
In UT Frisk has the choice to kill or spare, Frisk has the choice to actually get past Asgore, the other humans didn't have a choice, they were destined to fail, their choices didn't matter
In DR Kris is being controlled by us, who influences their choices, but when it's removed, we are helpless, we can only control the soul itself when it's removed from the host
Spamton wants Kris' soul because its the soul of choice, this part is based on theory, but there is a theory that Jevil and Spamton go mad after learning their choices don't matter, this would explain why Spamton would want the soul, he wants his choices to matter
That's very good thought out theory.
red color in general seems to represent heavy emotion in Undertale. So my theory is, red soul has all the other soul traits, along with the natural human trait, determination. Determination itself is probably golden
Hence the golden flower being in the centre of all the other soul coloured flowers in Asgore's flower shop (in Deltarune Chapter 1).
Oh i also had this headcanon, the reason why Frisk and even Kris can use all other soul powers was because thier soul was the combination of all traits, while some souls had a more specific stronger trait (the kindness soul even if having DT was more kind than determined) the red soul is a combination of all, all this traits are strong in the red soul, that's why i think the red soul could use the other traits.
Yeah, red is used for strong emotions outside of battle bubbles where red on white is easier than another highlight color (e.g. yellow). Passion, love, etc, there are a lot of things one can read from it.
@@indie_gamer7 Love cool name
@@lightning77natsaydokidokis68 Thanks, your name is interesting.
I have a theory that the red soul represents curiosity and that is why it is always related to the player in some way, because seeing what happens next is the reason we play and continue despite losing over and ovee and the whole "wanting to know what would happen if you did x" is a big point in undertale since the game is prepared for you to do weird different things like killing then sparing toriel, reseting immediately after talking to flowey, etc.
@@ShadowSaberBaroxio Exactly! I feel curiosity (and love) fit the best with the games themes
Honestly my personal opinion is that the red soul represents passion, a pretty descent amount of cases where the red text were highlighted had something to do with someone's passion about something (from what I recall)
It also works with any of the routes:
You had a passion for befriending others and kept going through the pacifist route
You had a passion to protect or kill others in neutral
And you had enough passion towards wanting to see what would happen at the end of pacifist, that it, along with your determination, kept you going.
Along with that, sure this may be dumb, but "good" passion is usually associated with warmth, and red is a warm colour, if we're going with associations, I can also add that "passion" has synonyms with multiple meanings, some bad, some good, some neutral, which also reminds me of the routes-
Passion is a cool interpretation, too! Definitely has room for multiple morality readings, too. c: Well put.
I’ve got a feeling that the soul colors actually don’t *represent* their respective traits. Like for example, what if having a green soul doesn’t mean that you’re inherently kind, but the human with the green soul that fell down just happened to be kind? Maybe the Ball game is just telling us that the human that had the orange soul was brave, or their main trait was bravery, not that all orange souls are brave?
Yeah, i have the idea that SOULs don't actually have traits, they're just different colors to know who's who
@@Negonkey im pretty sure if that was how it worked monsters would have soul colors too.
@@Iemonlemon It's to not be confusing. Human SOULs are not exactly a lot. Monster SOULs are a lot.
Personally, I believe the red soul is more of a mixture of things, as a lot of other people have pointed out. However, if I had to pin a trait to it, it wouldn't just be, as a few people have said, "Freedom" or "Staying true to yourself," but rather "Ambiguity" or some other similar synonym. Why? Think about it this way; Who was Chara? Who was Frisk? Who was Kris? (Well, we kiiiinda get a very broad idea of Kris's personality, but that's main from when he was a kid, and only from Noelle's perspective, not in recent times by any means.)
I believe it relates to how we have no clue what these humans are even like, nonetheless what their strongest personality trait would have been. It also goes deeper into the odd connections the soul has to the Player, being that they could be literally anyone. The soul's controlling force could be a pacifistic player, a speedrunner, one of those guys who fills their inventory before fighting Spamton Neo so his item can't enter into their pocket, ect. It works in a lot of ways, and even if it isn't particularly pointed out or hinted at in game, the mystery behind the soul might as well be its trait by this point, right?
But then again, that's just a theory. A GAME THEORY! Nice video, and I can't wait to see what happens next in Inverted Fate. Keep up the good work!
I'd argue we know plenty about Kris' personality in the present. The way they respond to certain choices, especially in Chapter 2, their search history, their mannerisms and actions. Kris is by far the most fleshed out of the humans in UT/DR and I do plan to do a more thorough analysis on them later. It's just gonna take a while.
@@Dorked Fair, but I still think there is enough evidence for the theory, or rather lack of evidence to disprove it, even if it isn't directly the intended trait or meaning of the soul. After all, we still don't know anything about why Kris has done some things, what that weird flash-back-y cutscene at the start of Chapter Two means, ect. that it can hold true.
Still, I do agree that we certainly know more about Kris than any other human in the series, lol.
Again, love the explanation and character analysis videos, and keep up the good work! hope all goes well with your fundraiser and the cause it goes towards, even if I don't particularly have the means or the spare cash to donate!
Your videos are always so good! Can’t wait for the next one!
Thanks! :) I have lots of ideas (plus I gotta get more IF music uploaded, haha). Just a matter of time, tbh.
@@Dorked I still think mus_monster with time signatures would be great fgnldg, it doesn't need spoilery visuals
After thinking about it for some time, i'm inclined to believe that the red soul only means direct control from the player
Which would be why when kris removes it they can move freely by themselves? Idk, but tbh it makes more sense than it being determination
Ah yes, the seven soul traits: perseverance, integrity, patience, kindness, justice, bravery and being possessed by some random eldritch god thing
Yes, but unironically XD
@@WhoStoleKirya73 that wouldnt make it a soul trait then, would it?? it'd be the symbol of a soul being controlled by someone else
@@WhoStoleKirya73 well white souls are monster souls so they don't always represent a trait.
The first fallen human's Soul was red.
It's an imperfect theory, as don't every color has a bossfight in Undertale, but the traits associated with the colors also can hint how to befriend certain characters, who change your Soul.
Papyrus: You just need to have the Integrity to not betray kill him, he himslef will never kill you.
Undyne: You have to show Kindness by giving her water after she tried to murder you.
Muffet: You just have to persevere through her attacks until she realizes her mistake.
Alphys: Don't forget, while you fight Mettaton, it's not him but Alphys who turns your Soul yellow. And in a sense, you have to bring her to justice, by helping her admit her mistakes and taking responsibility.
I'm pretty sure Toby was intended to use all colors in battle, but he realized his limits along the way. I'm pretty excited to see the unused colors in DR and how he reinterprets the others.
Interesting. What do you think the connection is between Spamton and Justice?
@@damianthorne2532 I'm not sure if the meaning of the colors carries over to DR as it kinda feels like Toby is trying to build a new symbolism for this universe, cherry-picking only those elements of Undertale he feels like he can fit in. Yellow here might be associated with ambition and grandiosity: the color of gold, which lets you shoot BIG SHOTS (might be also an allure to fireworks as the celebration of a person) and Spamton NEO says he's proud of you, when the Soul transforms into yellow seemingly on their own and not because of something external influence like in Undertale. Spamton might see this as a proof that Kris has these traits in them too, validating the connection between them that he seems to think there is, and making getting Kris' Soul even more enticeing. But that's just a guess, it's too early to call it a real theory, lol.
I've never even questioned wither the red saw didn't mean determination, really surprising to see how many points there is that can actually contradict that idea.
I think a lot of people just roll w/ it because of years of fandom content, which is fine, but I think it's neat to look at what's in the actual game.
@@Dorked Honestly that makes sense, although it is still weird to think that it was never really officialy stated that the red soul represents determination.
I saw this one theory by Underlab which suggested that the soul traits rather use the Cyan - Magenta - Yellow color thing to get soul traits (ex: kindness = patience + justice // green = cyan + yellow) and red in the cyan magenta yellow color thing is made using magenta & yellow, perseverance and justice. Persisting and doing what you feel this world deserves.
I honestly think the red coloration represents Passion. Hear me out here. Passion is often represented as a "fiery red" as Undyne puts it. Speaking of Undyne, it's through her own passion that her determination manifests. Frisk, in the pacifist route is stated to feel extremely strongly about the monsters' lives, and the red text in Chara's thoughts from Genocide also reflect passion.
Thanks for coming to my Tale Talk.
I kind of had the idea that red wasn't determination because perseverance has the same meaning as determination when it comes to the words.
Determination is gold
Red is "important to you"
It seems to mostly point at things you can do, like ESCAPE, and the red flag is all about yourself.
I notice you didn't bring up the flowers in Asgore's shop while discussing colors
I’ve thought of the red soul being something more than determination for some time, but if you try to pin another trait on it, there’s just so many different options you could choose. Personally, I like to think of the red soul as being determination because it could simply have the most. I agree with the determination as something every human and monster could have, but I just like to think of the red soul as somebody who had so much determination to do what they desired that it kind of condensed into a trait. I know that’s just a simple way of looking at it, but it’s just how I prefer to see it. Of course, I still like all the other theories I see though!
Thank you for putting something like this out! I've personally never really put any stock into this fanon -- to me it seems more like toby just wanted to give each soul a unique personality, rather than suggest certain traits are universally represented by different colors -- the latter idea isn't reinforced by the rest of the narrative in any meaningful way.
I love your analysis videos. I also always associated red with determination, because it became natural in Undertale fandom. It's interesting how we don't get determination stuff in Deltarune, when we are playing as the red soul. Maybe that's the clue that the red soul isn't actually determination. Queen only mentioned determination and that all lightners have it.
I think that red soul has more determination than the other traits hovewer. Who knows, maybe that's because of the anomaly/player itself. I feel like deltarune will clear up a lot of stuff once it'll be finished.
Keep up the great work!
Even I fell for the mandela effect that determination was in red in geno save points, haha. It became SUPER pervasive. But ultimately, whether Frisk has more DT or not or whether it's just our presence as players, it's hard to say! I also think DR will be enlightening.
Red - Unknown (At the moment)
Cyan - Patience
Orange - Bravery
Blue - Integrity
Purple - Perseverance
Green - Kindness
Yellow - Justice
Gold - Determination (EX: Flowey, the Save point, Golden Flowers, The Golden Flower in Asgore's Shop in Deltarune)
Honestly, I feel like the Red Soul is just a symbol of identity. It's distinct. It's recognisable. You know it's your colour. Also, it could just serve as the default colour for the Soul too since battles like Papyrus, Undyne, Mettaton EX and Muffet all utilise different coloured souls to represent different mechanics. Sometimes I think people look a little too deep into things XD
Perhaps the Red Soul is “Persistence”? The reason we were the one who didn’t succumb and give up. The reason we are the “exception” to the rule. Determination powers you as long as you hold the will to go forward - as long as you keep persisting.
There’s one or two holes in it, but most theories so far have the same issue. I’m not fully convinced but this remains the one I’m most convinced of!
Edit: well it seems a synonym is already present: Perseverance.
Although noticing the “Hope” option another commenter brought up, as well as it being THE option that gets you through the Asriel fight really stands strong to me.
The other things may have got the other humans to different points, but only the one possessing the spirit of Hope could truly beat the True Pacifist ending.
Thank you! It always did bother me that even after Deltarune, people still consistently use the red SOUL as "Determination" when that was never outright confirmed. When Deltarune Chapter 1 came out, I thought maybe it was an alternate universe that refers to red being "Power" as that is what Kris gets when saving.
But now my current theory is one that also exists in a fan series called Glitchtale, where the red SOUL is actually a perfect harmony of all the 6 traits and creates red. During the ball game, it lists off all 6 traits when getting the red flag. Determination is clearly something everyone regardless of trait or race has.
For this to work, each human soul is likely born with all traits but the most dominant one becomes the main trait.
A perfect balance of all six creates a red soul.
Once again though, this could be far-fetched.
Now you've turn human souls into Chao from Sonic Adventure 2
I think it also worty nentioning that as gore's trident is also red, which one of the few 8nstances were a color in a weapon is used the only other one I can think is the spear undyne gives you in her fight.
This is true! The red trident is a very striking visual, deeply tied to Asgore's color symbolism.
Honestly, I’ve always seen determination as yellow just because of the save points. I love to give my especially determined Undertale OCs yellow eyes.
You’re forgetting the last important soul in undertale. The switch Joy-cons
Nice analysis! Personally I think the red trait would most likely be power as it is neutral enough to be both good and bad (and therefore fit well enough with the other traits stated), along with Deltarune having a major emphasis on the word and the game's association with the red soul in particular, and the geno ending where Chara outright mentions power. As for soul traits, I like to think of those more as a nature vs nurture deal where it's moreso encompassing the human that holds that trait's base nature but isn't a thing that defines their entire personality. Or alternatively think of it like a DnD alignment chart where they're more like base suggestions that are a general rule for how the person acts but not a hard rule for how they act 100% of the time. As an example, a character in Dnd can be lawful good but that doesn't mean they obey the law 100% of the time, it could also mean they have a set of moral values they refuse to break even if it's illegal or gets someone hurt as long as they believe it's ultimately for the greater good. Just like how, say, a patience soul can be impatient or lose their temper but they usually at least try to give a bit of effort to wait before they act.
There was a concept I saw a while ago where all human souls were a composition of the different soul traits, but the most prominent trait determined the color.
So if someone's soul was mostly made of determination it would be red, or if someone had more kindness than anything else their soul would be green.
My birthday was a few days ago + I love your videos ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Aw, happy belated birthday, then!
I love the videos you make, and I also love inverted fate! I wish you the best of luck with future projects and great video!
Thanks for the well wishes! I got a lot of stuff to work on, but I will do my best.
@@Dorked take all the time you need, no rush!
Heya Dorked! I don't normally comment but I have quite a bit to talk about on this one so while I've got the chance I want to say - love your videos, always very insightful!
I don't believe that determination necessarily is red. I think it isn't consistently associated with any colour, even the gold is inconsistent and used more as a general highlight. However, I want to bring up a couple of points.
I don't think that the fact that previous humans likely had the determination to save & load necessarily contradicts the idea that the Red SOUL is associated with greater determination. It's highly unlikely that all the humans only have one trait exclusively - they likely had combinations of all traits, to greater or lesser extents. The Ball Game acknowledges that Frisk shows aspects of all of the traits, such as the Kindness and Integrity required for consistent mercy or the Bravery and Perseverance required to continue their journey through so many hardships. It's possible that the other humans shared all traits, including Determination if we assume that to be a trait, but the traits highlighted in their SOUL colours are just the qualities which manifest in the greatest amount to them.
There's also the fact that Frisk literally changes SOUL colour throughout the game: obviously there's the gameplay element, but I don't think it's ludicrous to conclude that this could be greater evidence that Frisk and the other humans contain the capacity to manifest all traits.
And the thing you mention around 4:04 - that's the thing, it wouldn't so much be that the SOUL trait is a power that carries more narrative weight than a character's personality, it'd be more like the SOUL's trait is itself a representation of personality, they are one and the same. The SOUL, after all, is a manifestation of the self.
The last thing is, if we assume all SOULs have traits and that the Red SOUL's trait *ISN'T* determination then it's hard to see what else if could be. Some people say that the Red ending of the Ball Game indicates it's some variety of "being yourself", but I think the ball game says that less because of it being a Red thing and more because... well, You just so happen to be red, so of course when talking about You the game would bring it up in Your colour. It's not certain to be "determination" but I think that's a lot more likely than "being You".
(Bonus thing that's not really part of the main discussion but is a detail I just noticed: the health bar is Gold filling in a Red background, the two colours most often associated w/ DT. Deliberate design choice or coincidence? I dunno, just wanted to note it anyway!)
Yeah, I think a big part of it depends on how much you weigh "soul traits" as being an important lore detail that is super deeply intrinsic to who someone is. I generally prefer to think that people are, well, people and thus multifaceted. That would naturally apply to Frisk just as well as anyone else. It's easy to see why red gets linked with DT, but I simply feel like Toby has bigger plans in store for the red soul. Interesting point about the health bar, btw!
Finally, someone gets it! Thank you for your video, I hope more fans will see it.
Obviously DT is connected to a monsters or human will to live, to continue existing.It is seen with undyne, sans, toriel and asogre, heck even papyru's head stayed after his body dusted.So the red soul is maybe the soul of will? The will to continue living and existing
maybe toby just wanted to highlight a few of the 'soul traits' there are in the ball game, which * every * soul in undertale has, but in different amounts. that is, if they do represent soul traits at all, as they are never directly linked with souls as determination, hope, love and compassion are.
for example, every soul in undertale has determination: all humans have determination, as alphys extracts it from the previously fallen humans souls, and monsters souls too have determination, as undyne, during the no-mercy run, desires to keep on living to take the player down, resolving to change fate. but some beings yield more determination than others. as flowey says: "your desires for this world apparently override mine", demonstrating that we, the player, have a stronger determination than flowey does, which explains why flowey can't save anymore and we can. possibly high quantities of determination allow its user to save and reset, the ultimate form of the desire to keep on living (e.g. flowey coming back even after killing himself) and of the resolve to change fate (e.g. the player resetting to attempt another route).
in my opinion, toby just colored the human souls differently just to differentiate each human during the omega flowey fight and to highlight different battle mechanics, and it isn't really necessary to look that deep into it.
I know I'm late to say this (and maybe someone said it already), but maybe the red trait is "Player" or "Protagonist"?
The player has the ability to posses all of the Soul traits as different players have different play styles. And why they are seen as so powerful (resetting time and coming back after dead) is because they are the protagonist/player.
But this just my interpretation.
thank you! since i heard of it i found this misconception fascinating, I'm glad more people are made aware of that
It's nice to bring these things to light since a lot of people sorta take these things for granted.
Your video's deserve so much more recognition smh
Aw, thank ye!
This brought up so MANY good points! I loved this!
Ah! I just love your theories!! It's a lot of fun just to think about the lore of Undertale and Deltarune.
To add a little piece of evidence to your theory, Flowey is actually a different color than the other golden flowers (I remember reading this from another fan theorist, but I can't remember the source). His yellow is more like the yellow text Alphys uses in her logs to describe 'Determination'.
Back when I had heard this theory about the true color of determination from another blog, it was hard to believe at first. Determination being red is so fixed within fanon, it seemed pretty clear-cut. Plus, it just seemed so unheard of for any other human to be able to wield the power of determination, but there's actually a lot of evidence that says otherwise, and I think you do an amazing job bringing it all together in such a short timeframe. Keep up the great work! :D
fascinating!!! an excellent analysis. Thank you for your efforts.
Hopefully this gets more popular! :D
I headcanon that the red SOUL is the soul of leadership, or something similar.
Chara, who sacrificed themself in an attempt to free monsters, putting the values of the underground above their own life.
Frisk, who in the pacifist route who refuses death to continue fighting for the people they care for
Kris is a bit of an odd case due to the nature of Deltarune’s red SOUL compared to Undertale. I won’t use things like the chapter 1 cutscene of Kris defending Susie from a Chaos King’s attack since you COULD argue it’s just a cutscene without huge lore implications.
Kris DOES take on a leadership role which could obviously just he’s the main character and the influence of the SOUL, but part of me feels like he’d still take the role even if not controlled. That’s just speculation though.
I think Red Buster is a good example of what the SOUL can do, channeling one’s power into another to make them stronger.
The SOUL changing colors in the Spamton NEO fight on its own is also interesting, since that only happened via outside sources in Undertale.
Its interesting. When your hp fades, your yellow determination gives way to red.
I see how many things hinted in the game are overlooked.
This video made my perspective of the game very, very interesting.
this is a very informative video and clears a lot of stuff of thanks
Hello, I'm Brazilian and I have to say that despite not being able to understand what the video says (I have a certain knowledge of English, I can understand the texts of the game, because I can stop to think about what they say, but I have more difficulty understanding when someone is talking and as the videos don't have subtitles so it becomes impossible for me to understand them ) I'm happy to see this theory
I can imagine what your theory says, because I already have a similar theory, I started to have it when I read in a post on amino BR, debunking myths about undertale, I went in believing that I wouldn't learn anything new and that ended up changing the whole way I saw the game, everything now made sense, the red soul is not the soul of determination but of love (I don't know if you said it is, but that's what I believe in and sincerely does more sense, as that's what the red heart means.) the person used sans' judgment as evidence, but if I'm not mistaken, in one of undyne's calls from papyrus, undyne correlates the red heart of the soul with love too, it's in one of the elevator rooms on the left, after that I went deeper and deeper, I discovered incredible theories like "chara narrator" that destroyed my conception that chara was just an evil demon and made me like the character more, then I saw more and more crazy theories, until that i came to the strange conclusion, that frisk is some sort of artificial soul that possessed chara's dead body and that somehow that makes sense, i still defend it to this day
In fact this theory is well known in Brazil, I think I've seen at least 2 channels defend it, Jokerzz is one of them and he gave me the idea of the zombie chara theory (stupid name for theory, huh? It was the best) I thought XD ), I had the idea to post my theories on amino and change the way people see the game, but I got discouraged about doing it, I'm too lazy for that (sans is not my favorite character, I prefer the papyrus :V )
So I was happy to see your theories, maybe our theories are not identical, I myself disagree with some points in other Brazilian theory channels that think in a similar way to mine, but I'm happy that someone managed to post the theories that I believe and that people will start to understand the truth about the game
Thanks Dorked, good luck with your theories (wow this was more emotional than expected, normally I'm not like that)
Ah, I'd love to do captions for my videos for accessibility reasons. I'm just not... quite sure how youtube captions are formatted, haha. But yeah, I did touch upon love and LOVE and how that could be the meaning of the red souls. Narrator theory is also a very good theory that I use myself in my works.
Ooh another fandom mandela effect vid. Love it! Thank you CZcams algorithm, you know just what i love
It's always nice when the algorithm behaves well. B)
Great stuff!
nice pfp
This is truly so good
My personal headcanon is that the Red Soul means it has a link to the Player, one way or another. It explains why we're seemingly able to control both Frisk and Chara (we save using their save file)
Of course, most of the evidences for this theory comes from Deltarune, which makes it inherently flawed since both worlds are different. But it's neat to think about
The player connection makes sense with Deltarune in mind, but that makes Chara such an odditity since even their coffin has a red soul. Toby, what are you implying, dude? >| Enigmatic dog man.
@@Dorked It's pretty interesting when you take into account the end of the genocide route, where Chara literally bargains to get your soul. Some people argue that it's to teach you you're not above consequences, but even Chara mentions that you're reaching "a compromise"
Evidently, getting the soul seems to be a pretty big deal for them, and my personal theory is that it's their only way to completely stay out of the player's control
YOU DO IF?
Damn, I'mma have to sub just for that, let alone this great analysis.
it might also help that in asgore's flower shop in deltarune, there's a golden flower, not a red one
So I had already made a pretty big comment on your post in the community section, and I also took some time to read the comments on this video
I think I can now post my verdict here
I think, just like multiple people here already said, that Frisk possesses all other personnality traits (Justice, Perseverance, Patience etc...), or at least enough of each of it, and the events in the game establish that pretty clearly
That would explain how Frisk's soul can change color during some fights
Now, my take on DT as a whole is that is doesn't have a real shape or color, and it all depends on the personnality trait of the person
To resume it in one sentence : Determination is what is in color in the combat interface
A Justice Soul appears as yellow, that is the color it's Determination has taken
DT is everywhere, in all monsters and humans, in different quantities
As for the Red Soul's personnality trait, it's up for debate and I don't think I have a real answer for it, it could be Hope, as much as Determination, as much as Love, etc...
I know a content creator from Baguette Land that made theory videos on Undertale, and he talked about Determination
Unfortunately I don't think everyone here speaks French, so I'll do my best to remember and translate his ideas
This person (whose username I will not give for obvious reasons) proposed that Determination can be increased with emotions, or heat (in an emotive way, as much as a physical way)
This would explain how Frisk can actually fight Asriel (who was a god at this moment, that's the equivalent of a 1v7 fight with human souls) over the control of the Save File
Frisk, at this moment, is so determined that they can compete with that much Determination, and I think that is what made people think that the Red Soul's trait was Determination
But in reality, it's just that those sheer emotions of Frisk are so powerful that they allow them to increase this DT to the point of rivalizing Asriel's
I also like to believe that the SAVE button being every Soul color can point at Frisk having every Soul trait
Anyway, here I go typing like a madman again, I hope we can debate during all night over Undertale theorization, cuz that's just what I like to do
Also, huge fan of your content ! It's been a really long time since I've seen a content creator going into Undertale theorizing subject and actually making great content about it !
Also love Inverted Fate, big fan of the project ! Keep up with the good work !
Yes, the heat/emotion theory is also support by the fact that in the genocide route Undyne mention a "burning feeling" that she can't describe, while her Determination is increasing. Also, Papyrus's blush apears in color (red) during his date wich means he is producing determination because of the strong feelings he gets.
It’s interesting. You bring up a lot of excellent points, especially with how the ball game never explicitly states that Determination is a trait. My personal thought is that determination is simply the ability that lets human souls persist after death. The other effect varies person to person, where Frisk can save and load because at their core, they are a determined person who refuses to give up. The other souls had other gifts that allowed them to make it as far as they did. For example, if the soul of justice was able to fight all the way to Asgore, how could that spirit of justice (not the song though) let them give up? Why would they have stopped? It makes more sense to me that to push through the limits of death, the others would be more like Undyne rather than Frisk. Able to stand up from a near death state, but not to rewind time at will.
I like how part of the fandom agree about red being determination and the other part disagree whether it's passion, love, hope, influence, identity, etc. etc.
I like the idea that red soul is for love. In Charas case LOVE (level of violence) and in Frisks case regular love (if you need more explanation ask)
Yeah, I think it's a fun way to play with UT's symbolism. "you didn't gain LOVE, but you gained love" and all that.
(gets out my big theory wall of pictures and red string)
I'm pretty convinced by the argument that red doesn't equal determination (even if I'm lazy enough to default to it in my works when I don't feel like worldbuilding that much lol). I think gold representing determination sounds like a very solid theory, starlightshore on Tumblr wrote up a good argument here: starlightshore.tumblr.com/post/190640759077/red-souls-arent-determination-souls
I don't have anything I'm 100% sure red IS... I do like the idea that it's Mercy (something I read in a fic by Taliax on AO3) or Love (as you argued in your video here), just 'cause I think it'd be a funny coincidence like you said in the video and also make Genocide even sadder and more tragic - that you managed to turn these kids whose souls were DEFINED by their mercy/love, into sadistic, mass-murdering megalomaniacs.
Also because I'm writing an essay that argues "It's me, Chara" shows up in mirrors in Genocide instead of "you" not because Chara is possessing Frisk in this route or anything, I've come around to the idea it's just symbolic - evidence from Flowey, Alphys, and Chara themself all suggest Chara is SOULless in the present, and so the mirror flavor text is the game telling you you're acting like how a SOULless person (Flowey and now Chara) would behave, lacking mercy and compassion, etc, instead of an ensouled person (Frisk).
So I think if the red SOUL = mercy/love, that would make the Geno route even more twisted to go against the kids' nature like that and explains why Frisk (the ensouled person, symbolizing mercy/love) is symbolically "missing" at the mirror while Chara (the soulless person, symbolizing Flowey) is "present" instead.
(I know that might sound like me desperately grasping at straws for excuses to people who're more... hm, Chara-skeptical, shall we say? wrt to the mirror and they probably see as a clear-cut case of Chara possessing Frisk, which... lol fair, I'm an unapologetic Chara defender and am 100% biased in making them a pure little sinnamon roll, but!! I do think my full argument might make a fairly convincing case for it when/if I ever publish it. It's just too long for a CZcams comment Dx And also not fully written yet DDx)
Comparing notes on what lore we can find about what might make up monster SOULs (love, hope, and compassion) and how determination is present in all human SOULs, I do tend to think all human SOULs are made up of 7-8 traits: determination, patience, bravery, integrity, perseverance, kindness, justice, and [whatever the hell red is], with the trait you have "the most" of designating the color.
And, looking over the lore, I think Frisk actually has LOWER amounts of DT than is typical for humans, since their soul shatters instantly on death when normally determination is said to be what makes human souls persist - up until we fight Asriel, when Frisk has seemingly found "the will to keep living... the resolve to change fate" and begins showing true determination, their SOUL repeatedly refusing death and even clinging to life into the decimals from attacks that should've killed them. (Makes sense, since you can interpret Frisk and Chara's reason for climbing the mountain being self-destructive/suicidal.) Before that, I think the determination being used was the player's (in short: like Flowey, Frisk and Chara seem to remember normal resets, but also like Flowey, neither Frisk nor Chara seem to remember True Resets, suggesting neither is the one who resets; Flowey is talking to SOMEONE in the Pacifist True Reset and calling them "Chara", but we see that Chara is with Frisk in Soulless Pacifist and the speech Flowey gives for True Pacifist and Soulless Pacifist implies Frisk isn't in front of him, implying he's talking to what he only THINKS is Chara, ie us).
(edit: oof that'd make resetting after True Pacifist even MORE cruel, you're tearing away everyone's happy ending AND wiping away the progress a kid made towards finally finding a reason to live, erasing all that progress from their memories and plunging them back into a suicidal mindset for the lolz)
Also, Dorked! Much love on your and your team's work on Inverted Fate!
I... actually never thought about Frisk's SOUL shattering like that symbolizing that means they have LESS Determination! Well, shoot. I just wrote a comment longer than this one giving a bunch of reasons why they have more- And with that one detail, it ruins my whole point LOLLL. Good job with that one xd
@@EleIsEpic A fellow Undertale scholar...! Oof, sorry I ruined YOUR long YT comment with MY long YT comment! Dx If you happen to still have it written up, I'd like to read it anyway, but if not, no worries, I don't want to make you write it all out again.
(Everything below is just me babbling on why I think Frisk has low DT, lol sorry, plz skip if it's boring.)
But yeah, I spent a long time confused about why Frisk's SOUL shattered so much faster than Asgore's and Toriel's when they died, even though Boss Monster SOULs are only supposed to persist for a few seconds (and we see that in-game when those two die) but Frisk's SOUL INSTANTLY shatters when their HP hits 0 (while Toriel and Asgore even have time to get speeches in when their HP hits 0), compared to the other human SOULs apparently being attacked. And this happens no matter who's attacking them, even people who're purposefully trying to collect Frisk's SOUL (Undyne, Asgore) and would theoretically be trying to avoid breaking it or w/e and would know what to do. Like I was willing to chalk it up to the gameplay just not matching up to the lore for convenience, but it started bugging me that it was so THE OPPOSITE of what Toby kept saying in the lore, y'know?
For a while I thought maybe it was because your SOUL has to shatter in order to load? Or perhaps Frisk actually had so MUCH DT that without being able to contain it in their body anymore, it sort of overflowed and "broke" their SOUL or something?
It was only when I was rereading the Waterfall plaques and Alphys notes lore that I started wondering if Frisk actually had less determination than humans are supposed to -
Waterfall Plaque -
"* But humans have one weakness.
* Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL.
* Its power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death.
* There is only one exception.
* The SOUL of a special species of monster called a "Boss Monster."
* A Boss Monster's SOUL is strong enough to persist after death...
* If only for a few moments."
(Establishing human SOULs are supposed to persist for an unspecified amount of time after death, compared to the "few moments" for Boss Monsters. The six human SOULs staying intact long enough to be collected, unlike Frisk's, then stay intact years after collection, and Toriel's and Asgore's SOULs breaking after a few seconds back this up.)
Entry No 5 -
"* Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs.
* I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death.
* The will to keep living...
* The resolve to change fate.
* Let's call this power...
* "Determination.""
(Establishing determination is specifically what enables human SOULs to persist indefinitely. "Persist" was established by the plaque to mean "stay intact after death" by comparing it to Boss Monsters SOULs doing that for a few seconds too, so we can conclude the six collected SOULs have normal human amounts of DT and there is something "wrong" with the DT in Frisk's SOUL.)
I came around to liking the idea of Frisk having abnormally low DT because it implies so much character growth for Pacifist, with them GAINING their own DT and refusing to die/lose to Asriel. I think that's actually some really fitting and touching implied character development for someone whose name we only learn in that route, and who we never hear talk! Frisk having low-key character development along with NarraChara, my sweet angel bbs
This is an AMAZING video, and honestly I'm really glad you talked about this! I read the comments thoroughly, and based on those and the information presented in the video, I actually think Red souls may represent a combination of things!
Red, for all intents and purposes, CAN possibly present pure determination without purpose- hence why we, the player, can guide and influence Frisk. Determination without purpose can lead to MANY things, good and bad, and ultimately the choices we make will deeply affect Frisk and all those around them in genuinely irreversible ways (ex: Toriel saying "you look like you've seen a ghost" if you restart the game after killing her).
Which is ALSO why I think red can represent Hope, based on what another commenter shared here! While Frisk's soul likely had no purpose or place to pour their Determination into at first, it BECAME Hope because of what we nudge them to do in the Pacifist route. Something that they, and likely also Chara, truly wanted- freedom and happiness for all in the underground, to give them hope again as Chara had once tried to do. This is why Frisk can straight-up reject death when fighting Asriel in the True Pacifist route, and how they're able to save everyone with just their soul and their bare hands. When shown how their friends and loved ones in the underground can be happy, how they truly are outside of the myths and stories, Frisk ultimately wanted nothing more than to help them.
Which also makes the genocide route far more devastating... Chara only becomes a narrator and antagonist at the end, when manipulated and forced into a position in which they believe it's the only choice. Frisk isn't able to save anyone here, not really. Not when choices we force unto Frisk lead to the Underground's demise. Frisk isn't as powerful as they are in Pacifist, and yet simultaneously more powerful in FAR more destructive ways, because of how Frisk's Determination was manipulated by the player.
The opposite of hope is nihilism, fear, anger, and destruction- to put it more bluntly, HATE. Which you see a LOT of in the genocide route, and I feel this ties back to Deltarune in a way as well.
While I personally don't believe in soul traits, if you call Undyne and Papyrus in the room with the L3 elevator, she mentions how red stands for love
I know this video is super old by now but I'm just getting back into the series and I always always thought the Red Soul represented passion. When you're passionate, you put your everything into everything. It could be the reason Frisk is 'more determined', because when you have passion, you have a will to keep going for that passion. What I like about this is that, like the determination interpretation, it does not lock Frisk in to being good or evil because passion exists in the worst people and the best people. Passion and love (the emotion) are also both associated with the color red in our society, so it's not a super large stretch to make. Another bonus that this has is fitting more seamlessly with the other soul traits.
I read it as Hope
Asgore is red and is a hopebringer, and says you have that same look of hope in your eyes as chara, and like it's the whole hopes and dream thing
JaruJaru made an interesting video theorizing that the soul may have the trait of “Power”, he makes some very good points.
I always associate the red soul with ambition and that chara's determination is what drives the player towards their goal
red being individuality also is a super nice narative parallel to the true lab where alphys took away monsters' individuality by making the amalgamations
Oh, wow. I never played the Genocide route, so I'm always shocked to see little bits from it- like the narration changing to Chara's POV in the castle on things like "my drawing" and "I've read this already."
The only real idea I had for the red soul's trait was Influence. I know, it sounds weird but stick with me.
Both Undertale and Deltarune literally shove in your face the concept of choices. Undertale's - specifically- whole schtick is that your choices matter and you control the influence and impact those choices create. Deltarune is similar to how your choices also influence other characters and the story. In fact, the whole idea and concept of the player controlling- or heavily influencing- Frisk's and Kris's actions and movements really place the nail in the coffin for my quick little theory.
Lastly, dialogue. You mentioned several accounts of red highlighted dialogue and I only have one true idea for how it could connect. The red highlighted phrases or words are because they can be tied back to heavy influence. Asgore, and his fight, holds a lot of Influence within the game. Alphys going on a date was all of your own influence. During the Undyne fight, she highlights "Escape" because I'm pretty certain that's how you figure out how to spare her. It is another influential decision that you learned through red highlighted text.
Again, it was a small, quick idea so there are probably many pieces of evidence working against me, but I'd just thought I might share.
I like to see the red soul as representing megalomania, and that undyne referring to “love” when mentioning cartoony hearts is foreshadowing the red soul’s ability to gain LOVE, which might be something the others souls can’t do, since the only characters that explain LV and EXP to us are Flowey, sans and Chara, who clearly know a lot about how souls work or even had a red soul themselves, meanwhile undyne in a neutral run acuses you of killing for fun, not for power but for fun, implying nobody else knows you get stronger the more you kill. This would mean the plot of Undertale is overcoming your own megalomania with determination and gaining love instead of LOVE
If it's true that the red soul isn't determination, then I wonder if (because of Deltarune's implications about the soul) it has something to do with "posession" or "control". Just a thought.
Hmm, I'm not sure, since Chara had nothing to do with the player and had a red soul. It's also possible that Kris' soul was always red and we were just forced upon it. It's hard to say.
great video 👍
this is super cool!
this sounds like bot spam i just wnat to comment for interaction bcuz i liked the video but dont know what to say lmao
rethinking it all, i've come to a conclution: you've gotta notice that Kris and Frisk are our "vessels" . red can mean that the soul is under possesion of the Player
no way im watching this exactly a year after it was posted
Perhaps red could be “curiosity?”
The only reason anybody would try playing the ball game again would be to “see what happens,” a recurring theme throughout the game. When you complete it a second time, it says “RED - Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.”
Definitely not hard evidence, but it seems to make sense to me.
@Dorked Ok this might literally Weeks on ends old but I just had a thought and I wonder if anyone else has also thought this what if DETERMINATION isn't a SOUL but a FEELING within one's SOUL a FEELING that makes them keep going keep on moving never turning back but always PROCEED further on
Yeah Toby really is a Genius of our time in storytelling