The Peloponnesian War - PART I: The Gathering Storm
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- This is the first episode of the podcast series on the Peloponnesian War. How did it start? What does Thucydides, the war's great historian, tell us about the reasons and motivations of Athens, Sparta, Corinth and the different parties involved? Could the conflict have been prevented? We'll take a look at these questions and more as we go through the story of the greatest internal conflict of ancient Greek history, the Peloponnesian War!
Contents:
00:00 Introduction
01:50 Thucydides and History
05:33 Greece after the Persian Invasion
08:52 The Delian and Peloponnesian Leagues
11:12 Earthquake in Sparta and Messenian Uprising
12:38 Athens and Sparta have a Falling Out
16:00 Early Skirmishes
22:51 Conflict between Corinth and Corcyra
27:44 Battle of Sybota
31:00 The Megarian Decree
32:06 Potidea and Macedon
35:20 War Hawks
39:42 The Arguments of Archidamos and Sthenelaidas
43:00 War is Declared!
44:22 Thank You and Patrons
Related Videos:
Peloponnesian War Podcast Playlist
• Peloponnesian War
The Peloponnesian War - PART II: Pericles' War Begins
• The Peloponnesian War ...
The History of Ancient Sparta and the Spartans
• The History of Ancient...
Ancient Athens: Highlights of Athenian History
• Ancient Athens: Highli...
Ancient Greece during the Archaic Period (750-480 BC)
• Ancient Greece during ...
Special thanks to Malay Archer for creating the astounding machinimas that really brought this program to life using Total War: Rome 2 Divide et Impera mod Alexander submod
Sources and Suggested Reading ► bit.ly/3vJb3nM
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The Peloponnesian War might just be one of the first moments in history that's recounted with all the nuance and clarity of a current event, and yet it took place over 2400 years ago. That's one millennium before the events of Beowulf. There are myths and legends that have formed in less time. We owe a debt of gratitude to Thucydides.
I feel like the same urges from him to record history in so much detail is something that exists in all of us who have an enending hunger for knowledge.. This why partly why itkills me to have been born and live during a time where the world, its faraway lands and stories has already been discovered
You’re welcome
I think the Persian War would take that title. But the Peloponnesian War definitely comes in second place fo sho.
Nwo we are living through.
Kill politicians before they kill you
@@tacocruiser4238 Yeah, the Persian War does have some sources that are on this level and Xenophon even has his own account which is probably one of the best firsthand accounts of the era
It’s so strange when you think of Sparta you think war like people who always wanted a good fight. Then you hear about them constantly being the ones trying to deescalate the tension between everyone fighting. Seems so much more level headed then they are normally portrayed
History is not always written by the winners!
Very true! Thanks for watching, appreciate it!
Talking about Thucydides, his work and essentially his exile always reminds me about the reflections of Polish poet Zbigniew Herbert, expressed in his poem "Why the classics?":
"in the fourth book of the Peloponnesian War
Thucydides tells among other things
the story of his unsuccessful expedition
among long speeches of chiefs
battles sieges plague
dense net of intrigues of diplomatic endeavours
the episode is like a pin
in a forest
the Greek colony Amphipolis
fell into the hands of Brasidos
because Thucydides was late with relief
for this he paid his native city
with lifelong exile
exiles of all times
know what price this is
generals of the most recent wars
if a similar affair happens to them
whine on their knees before posterity
praise their heroism and innocence
they accuse their subordinates
envious colleagues
unfavourable winds
Thucydides says only
that he had seven ships
it was winter
and he sailed quickly
(...)"
Yes, well definitely get to this even which I think takes place in the 7th or 8th year of the war. Thanks for sharing this!
Wow, powerfully emotive prose
Wonderful! Thanks so much for sharing.
“Many were optimistic that a new era of peace and prosperity was at hand.”
Sparta: “And I took that personally.”
I've only watched the first part just now but it seems to me that it's the Athenians that provoking war.
The Spartans considered attacking Athen when Samos or whatever their name were rebelling and decided against it. Athen on the other hand deliberately permit Corinth's former colony to join their league, violating the treaty of 30 years peace.
@@remington2216 Former colony like Ukraine😅
I remember reading Thucydides Peloponnesian war in basic on Fort Benning (I smuggled it in). This brings back alotta good memories
Nice, more good memories on the way as we examine Thucydides further in the next part. Thanks for watching, appreciate it!
I would never accuse Cy of being topical, but I can't help but think that there are some valuable insights to be learned about the pitfalls and complexities of military alliances from the Peloponnesian War (indeed of ancient Greek history in general) that are still relevant today as of certain recent events.
I was literally thinking the same!
it is the same pattern, literally, "Athens" didnt want to lose the grip on "Delian allies" so they inflamed war... " we are more united then ever" the main goal and for that they needed a boggeyman and a scapegoat to trow under the bus, "Delian allies" are cowards that do not assume their sovereign interests, being pawns in major conflict.
Melian dialogue, Thucydides trap...
Yeah, there's a reason why military and political strategist still read Thucydides...lots of wisdom that's relevant today. Though I had written this script back in December, I started recording the actual video just a few days before the current crisis in Ukraine and couldn't help but think the same as I was listening to the news while putting this together. Anyway, my prayers for the Ukrainian people and all hoping that this ends soon. I have friends with families still in the country trying to make their way to Poland and Slovakia and it really breaks my heart to see all that is going on over there.
Thanks for watching, stay safe...
@@HistorywithCy WELL SAID
I’m a little embarrassed that this may be my first time posting on one of your vids b/c I’ve watched SO many (& liked❤️ them). But OMG you are literally one of my favorite content creators! I’ve learned so much about ancient Mesopotamia, Greece, Egypt etc. from your vids & recommendations🤯
I just wanted to say I’m a huge fan of your work. I can only imagine the labor put into the research. It is appreciated!💗
I am so glad I found your channel Cy!! I am currently learning about Iranian history as well as beginning to learn Persian and your videos (especially about the Achaemenid Empire) have been so insightful and helpful to me. Keep up the great work, it is very much appreciated (as well as really enjoyable to watch)!
That was mainly a war between Dorians and Ionians. The separation between the cities was dictated always by tribal relations. The Peloponesian and the Thebans were Dorians while the Athenians were Ionians.
What a great video. So far you’ve touched on exactly the right points. I’m glad you’ve elected to actually quote Thucydides to great length when needed. Other channels neglect to give the viewer the actual words by which the video is basing its knowledge on.
The Peloponnesian war deserves a series. It could easily have 10 seasons
You're in luck! I'm going to film in Greece at some of the P. War sites in September... will be revamping this series with that end of this year...early next. Stay tuned and thanks for your patience!
@@HistorywithCy Your channel is magnificent dude. Keep up the good work
@@dhmossedios2194Thanks man, appreciate the kind words!
Superb. Just remembering all this from Donald Kagan's book "The Pelloponesian War" I read years ago (definitely recommended). The actions of some of the nations in todays world mirror those in 5th century BC Greece with uncanny similarity. and all those centuries ago. Astounding.
The beast of Tanagra.. Sparta..when the walls fell
A man of culture!
@@simoklownz2267 his eyes open
Thank you Cy… For yet again a great coverage on an epic historical story to journey back in time.
My pleasure, thank you for watching, really appreciate it!
Another great video from Cy! Bless you sir, and thank you for these hours and hours of great content!
My pleasure and thanks for watching! More on the way, including Part II next month, stay tuned and safe!
Nice late night snack! Thanks bro!
Thanks, hope that you enjoy this and what's to come...stay tuned and safe!
This was such an interesting and well informed video, I can see how much detail and effort was put into and I'm very thankful that I was able to watch this. Can't wait for part 2 of the series, keep up the great work Cy!
More content Cy! Love the straightforward top down approach, your channel has been an excellent primer for areas of history to dive further into.
An epic war between cities - states that Western civilization has lived and breathed for centuries! I'm waiting for the next, equally interesting part! 👌
Thanks for watching, appreciate it! Yes, the 2nd part will be out hopefully next month, stay tuned and hope all of your trips are going well!
@@HistorywithCy I am waiting impatiently, greetings from Egypt!✌
YAY! History with you 💕 and a wonderful decent lengthy one, at that. Thank you! Need a reason to "sit back & relax".
That was FANTASTIC! Eagerly awaiting part 2.
Thank you! Hopefully out next month, stay tuned and thanks for watching!
I can’t wait for part two of this! You and your videos are so cool!!!
Hopefully out next month, stay tuned and thanks for watching!
Excellent Cy. Thank you.
Appreciate the kind words and thank you for watching!
Great opening show. Thank you for this.
Glad to work alongside with you Cy :)
Pleasure's all mine, thank YOU for helping to bring this project to life!
I stumbled on this and almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad I did. I like the way you structure the video. Subscribed.
thank you Cy, I love your channel it's far underrated
Fantastic work as always 🙏 Thank you Cy💕
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
May not be the Bronze Age, but this is still one of my favorite topics in history. I remember around the time the show Rome was still rolling on HBO, I had this want for a series just like that but covering the Peloponnesian War as described by Thucydides and Herodotus. I would have watched it, and it would be a breath of fresh air for a show respectfully depicting Greek culture, since pretty much every film and television series has had a bad habit of "tossing their junk" in, like this urge to make the Greek heroes behave like 1990s atheists.
Oh I would love that, it would be epic, like literally. I feel like such a series could have the potential of being a Game of Thrones like saga...
HBO, Netflix... if you need a screen writer, I um, ahem, know a guy!
Thanks for watching, really appreciate it! Part II hopefully out next month, stay tuned!
That would be cool and could be a multi season great show with the rise and fall of Athens and Sparta it’s ending
Great quality content. I love watching these while I work.
Thanks, glad these help! Part II hopefully out next month, stay tuned!
God bless you for your work! This is an incredible video to view! Its amazing what kinda developments can be learned when the Truth is finally told!! So excited for part two, but take your time Cy. Your the definition of a professional historian in my humble opinion.
Thanks for the kind words, I'm truly grateful for your support and hope that you enjoyed the video! Hope to have the second part out in a month or so, stay tuned and thanks for watching!
Uh wow, what are you his mom? Take it down a notch sweetheart
Um, I'm guessing you don't have much of a social life.
thanks ! the visuals and the texts helped sustain my interest.
Oh nice. The podcast is back! I like listening to your podcast while driving to work!
Thanks! I actually likely producing content in this format more than the others so hopefully will have more of these throughout the year on various topics. Thanks again for support, really appreciate it!
Been looking for a video like this for a minute now thanks homie
A great start to a fascinating series, Cy!
Thanks, the next few in this series will be out soon, stay tuned and thanks for watching/listening!
@@HistorywithCy How many parts do you plan? This is such an epic story that it can have a lot of series :)
Let’s GOOOO 🔥‼️
I knew you'd like this one 😄!
Thank you for another great series
My pleasure, thanks for watching... now, back to work on the Egyptian series Dynasty by Dynasty... stay tuned!
Great information. Thanks Cy.
Thank you, appreciate the kind words and support!
Awesome, thank you.
What a brilliant video! Ty Cy
Thank you, appreciate it!
The photos and animations of the ships and land soldiers work very well and help clarify the narration.
Thanks, those were the work of my friend Malay Archer - agreed, they really add new life to the story! Thanks for watching and Part II out later this month!
Exciting development. Gonna open up civ and listen to some histories. Thanks, Cy!
i am embarking on a similar strategy
My pleasure and thanks for listening/watching! More on the way, stay tuned and safe!
Thank you so much for this video!
My pleasure, thank you for watching!
@@HistorywithCy
You are welcome!
Fantastic episode Cy. I really enjoyed it!
Thanks my friend, glad you enjoyed this and sorry for the late response! Second part should be out later on this month (aiming for between April 20-23). More on the way, stay tuned!
@@HistorywithCy No worries and can't wait!
Thanks for sharing 🙏🏾
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
incredible video, thanks mate!
Thank you, appreciate it! More on the way, stay tuned!
Nice stuff !!! Congratulations!
Thanks!!
Hell yeah I can't believe I somehow stumbled on this awesome channel, you need so many more subscribers my guy.
Thanks and welcome! Also, great timing... I just release the second part of this series... enjoy and thanks for stopping by!
Yes!! So excited for this! Go Cy!!
Love the enthusiasm and thanks for watching! I remember you saying you were reading Kagan's book... that was one my most important sources (along with the Landmark Thucydides) for this program. Hope that you're enjoying both!
@@HistorywithCy I definitely am! I have a copy of the landmark Thucydides sitting on my shelf right now, though i haven’t gotten the chance to start it as I’m still making my way through the landmark Herodotus. Those books are so amazing, love all the extra info and detail you get from the maps and footnotes.
It's a shame that Athens lost Cimon so early. He would have been very useful in patching up relations with Sparta and preventing further war. Cimon always tried to maintain friendly relations with Sparta.
Thank you.
Well done
Love it!
Thank you!
Really great video. Very well done. When will part three arrive?
Love love love it!
Thank you! Part II hopefully out next month, stay tuned and thanks for listening/watching!
awesome!
it was a awesome battel
Great video! Thank you!
Another great video CY,!
Thanks my friend, glad you enjoyed it! Part II out hopefully next month, stay tuned and safe!
I love your stuff cy,respect
Thanks Chris, glad you enjoyed this! Part II will be out later on this month, stay tuned and thanks for watching!
TEΛΕΙΟ(PERFECT).Thank you from a Greek.Continue your work
Awesome thanks.
You're welcome, thanks for watching!
Thank you i enjoyed that
This one was very interesti g. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks, glad this was helpful and thanks for watching!
Right onnn good video
sweeeeeeeet 👍 you the man, my man
My pleasure, thanks for listening/watching, really appreciate it!
So good
Love these long form podcast you do Cy. Your animations are getting better too congrats.
Thanks, appreciate the kind words of support! Lot's more on the way, stay tuned and thanks for watching!
When I was a kid developing fascination in history, this period was one of my favorite ones. I don't really know why my interest decreased a bit over time.
But it makes me even more happy to having my memory refreshed by Cy.
Now your video is also a momentary respite for me from anxiously following the news about the current war. Who would have thought just 12 days ago.
Yeah I know what you mean... I have friends with families still in the country that are trying to make their way to Poland and Slovakia where they have family or contacts but it's it's become almost impossible with all of the shelling. My prayers are with the Ukrainian people and all they're going to. I am so proud and in awe of what countries like Poland are doing for their Ukrainian brothers and sisters... providing whatever they can without asking for anything in return. In this conflict, we see the worst but also the best of humanity.
Anyway, thanks for watching and hope that all on your end and the people are safe. Part II on the way hopefully next month, stay tuned...
@@HistorywithCy I hope your friends will get to safety soon!
Seeing your praise of my country I can't help but feel embarrassed, as until recently we've been handling very poorly a much smaller refuge/migrant crisis on our border with Belarus (and by "we" I mean our government). It was artificially created by Lukashenko (in hindsight it looks like it could be part of preparation for this war - by sowing discord and chaos).
Even now there has been some troubling reports from the Polish-Ukrainian border about not all refugees being treated equally but the authorities are claiming it's all misinformation or misunderstandings.
Sorry for bringing up this topic. Once again, I hope that your friends and their families will be OK.
@@HistorywithCy Or should I say I hope your friends' relatives will be OK and safe soon. It appears I've misread your response a bit at first.
@@Artur_M. no worries, may everyone, friends, relatives, loved ones be safe!
Great Stuff.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! Part II out hopefully next month, stay tuned!
Hell yeah I love this channel
Thanks, hope you like the video and more on the way, stay tuned and safe!
This war is my favorite in all of his 😊
Every detail describes another intrecisity
While not absolving Athens of any wrongdoing I can't help but think that Corinth played a disproportionate role in starting this conflict - they seem to have been an obstreperous bunch. I know they had been one of the top tier city states in previous eons - much like Argos - but seem to have a problem with the fact that by the 5th Century her day had passed.
It makes me think that if Sparta and Athens had combined and jointly restrained Corinth the Greek world would have been better off. It certaionly makes me understand why the Romans literally went 'Full Metal Carthage' on them in the 2nd Century - get rid of the troublemakers before they get too uppity.
Great vid as always - condenses the whole mess of the lead up to the Peloponnesian war into an easy to understand and follow format.
Oh yay!
Please cover the events leading to the Peace of Antalcidas or The King's Peace (387 BC).
Hi. Thanks for your videos.
Please how can we contact you directly?
Gerald Butler was was awesome.... in 300! Also loved Rise of the Empire. Always watch your videos Cy. Really like the tying into today's situations. Very similar. History is just repeating itself. Us humans are very stupid. Wake up people, we have been here before, let's not repeat the past.
Humans have walked on the moon, split the Atom and many other accolades and you call us stupid?
You've been watching to many movies soft lad.
And that's all? In thousands upon thousands of years..... thats it? Us humans could do so much better if we get out of each other's way.
@@john9982
Thats it? ''
Plus many other accolades ''
Look up the meaning of many other accolades please john.
Yes, I agree. Looked it up. You are correct. EOD.
@@john9982
Thanks John.
Yes the Human race has advanced more in the past 100 years than the entire period from the last ice age up to now!. 👍👍👍
Corinthians calling out ally Sparta: "For the true authors of the subjugation of a people is not so much the immediate agent, as the power which permits it having the means to protect it"
This is pretty much recorded histories first and biggest example of the saying "All that requires for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
Execute tyrannical government puppets
Is part 2 done? I loved part 1. Can't find part 2
Will be out by this weekend... working on it right now!
In modern times they are called Sparta but as i recall they were reffered to as Lacedemon which was what the region the city of Sparta was found in but details details, good job on the video
Laconia is the region, Sparta is the city.
Spartan=Spartiates whose origins are from the 3 main villages of the city state.
Laconians= Spartans, periokoi and maybe some helots, from the wider region of Laconia (south east Peloponnese or the right leg on the map)
Thank you for exposing your viewers to Thucydides (but, I bet most of your viewers know of him or read him).
Whenever I read about the sharp elbow, no-holds-barred current politics I think about a passage from Thucydides in reference to the civil war in Corcyra, circa 435BCE
"To fit in with the change of events, words, too had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defense. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted and anyone who objected to them became suspect."
Thucycides History of the Peloponnesian Wars (III, verse 82)
Same as it ever was..... 2,500 years later.
btw: Nicely done, again.
Absolutely wonderful.
Thank you so much for posting that quote.
People behaving at their worst never seems to change.
What I think is good is that people improving, behaving better DOES change.
It is an out of this context example, but here is one:
When the New Zealand actor/writers Taika Waititi and Jemaine Clement made a short film in 2005 in which they dressed in circa 1800 gentlemen of fashion clothing and walked through Wellington one evening, in the night life area. Passers by, all men, over and over shouted "fags: and similar at them.
In 2014 Waititi and Clement did the same thing, filming a longer version of the same story.. But on this occasion no passers by shouted homophobic abuse at them.
Ten years had passed. The people on the streets were a different group, 10 years younger, they'd probably have been between 8 and 16 years old when the first film was made. Their attitudes and behaviour were totally different. Clement said that in order to replicate the abuse from passers by, they had to put it in the script and cast people to say the lines.
Sometimes it seems that no progress is made in human behaviour, only in institutions which can provide protection from it, but people can improve, maybe no so much at individuals, but generationally. They can also fall back horribly too, unfortunately, and old attitudes we thought we'd seen off can suddenly rear up.
But we shouldn't despair. Nor should we be complacent.
In Human History the same scenes are played out over and over again. It is only the actors who change..
( marcus aurelius . I think ? )
Where's part two? I've looked on your channel and can't find it. Are you gonna complete this or are you done with it?
Hi, thanks for watching ... the next part should be out around April 20-23rd. Let me know if you have any questions...thanks!
Another amazing video from Cy! I actually recently uploaded my own summary video of the Athens vs Sparta conflict causes in 4 minutes if anyone wants the spark notes version haha!
❤
How did contemporary Greeks refer to the Delian and Peloponnesian Leagues during this period?
When I die imma go check some of these battles out
More maps please Cy 🤓
For their time was known as the great war, but today we know as the Peloponesian wars. Dude strong statement I wonder if the future will see the two WW as a form of tribal warfare and called something like the european war, already history treats the pacific war as a complete separate topic.
where is part IV? 😢
The Delian League is a warning from history about the dangers of joining organisations that start out voluntary. The EU could easily go the same way.
👍👍👍
Thank you!
How much of the disputes and clashes between Athens and Sparta do you think is connected to their different ethnic history of being Dorian and Ionian?
Very good question. In my opinion, I don't think that played as big a role. While its true that most Delian League members were Ionians, there were also member states with a predominantly Dorian background. I personally do think that a lot of it had to do with Spartan and, more so Corinthian agitation at Athens' power. Another factor could also have been the types of governments - the overwhelming majority in the Spartan alliance were oligarchies whereas in the Delian League, most had some form of democratic government - not all, but most.
Thanks for watching, really appreciate it!
Hi CY, please I want you to help me understand Hellenistic period and the Jewish period.
Also has anyone came to die on the cross of calvary to save mankind as perceived by Christianity? If yes, what was his name and what are his followers called?
Cy, upper Egypt keeps getting mentioned, but not done. The richat structures eye is only one part of it. It does have another eye, to the right, but obscured. There is a lion figure in with King Tutts collection, but no one touches on the topic that it’s got a black face mixed with the lion. Upper Egypt was on the west coast of Africa the old dilapidated mosques also attest to the fact that the area is old Egypt. The lion figure with the black face is important in the collection as it leaves a trail from upper Egypt through zig zag which has its own lion face. As does Lower Egypt.
Boy, the start of conflict (Early Skirmishes chapter) sounds just like NATO expansion, Russian fears, and seceded territories of today!
It doesn´t only sound like that, it´s exaclty the same, which is the reason why education is helpfull... What Athens has managed was a miracle, no doubt, but Athenians turned megalomaniac, dazzled by their own greatness (invention of personal responsibility, and thus of personal freedom, in a stateform without masters). The Persians were still there, and democracy had also many enemies within Greece, and not only in Persia. They thought that going big is gonna protect them, and thereby forgot their main skill: Teaching the practise of Democracy! Nato also believes to be there to protect something (the riches of the wealthy in this case, that keep the world running, I suppose) and sees everywhere enemies, that have never really existed. Russia on the other side cannot choose when and where to react, cause that were a luxury. They stand there, watching how Neoliberalism (when capitalism reaches a dictatorial form) spreads everywhere, with the help of declared fascists/hypernationalists like Croatians (Yugoslavia, 1990) or Ukrainians (right now) or of muslim fanatics (Afganistan, Irak)... And western Ukrainians are (after 105 years) still butthurt, that Stalin took their slaves and riches away, that while they are perfect Russians themselves, are racist to every other Russian (who used to be their slave before 1917 ;-) ... Ukrainians are the US-southerners of Russia, everyone else ought to be inferior, cause that was the status-quo before 1917...
Thucydides was an apologist for Pericles, and sought to clear him of responsibility for the war by claiming the wars were "inevitable."
Longer vids please
@7:50 - 300 Spartans and how many thousands of Helots? :)
Actually that's a very interesting topic. I had read somewhere that depending on their rank, Spartiate soldiers could have as many as 2 to 10 helots as assistants or aids that would accompany them. Most probably didn't fight or were given arms but did all of the logistical work and served as cooks and other non-combat tasks. That'd be an interesting topic to delve into. Thanks for watching, really appreciate it and more on the way, stay tuned and safe!