Fixing some seriously wonky brake mounts
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Flat mount brakes need an actually flat surface to mount to. What happens when your frame is not flat? In this video I show you how to measure and good good decisions on what to face and how much, and the desired result you are looking for.
In this video is a Stayer steel frame, hope RX4 brakes,
We used the Park Tool Disc Brake Facing tool
A simple set square, calipers and steel ruler. - Sport
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Thank you so much for all the hard work you guys have put into my bike over the last few days. For some context I've had the bike 18 months and have done just over 4000km on it (not 20k) it is definitely not a fair weather bike that's for sure. Lots and lots of mud and gritstone as we live in the Peakdistrict. Really looking forward to getting out on it again over the weekend.
After reading some of the comments I'd like to add that surprisingly I didn't notice anything wrong until I tried putting on a Hope 160mm disc. The Sram 140mm and original Sram calliper never caused an issue. Adding the Shimano spacer for the larger disc obviously showed up the gap hence me taking it to Mapdec. The bike has been amazing and I'm looking forward to seeing and riding it with the 160mm Hope disc. The guys at Stayer were brilliant through out the build and couldn't have been more helpful. A big thank you to Paul and his team for the work this week.
Sorry it took so long. I have been out and about for a few days and as you can see the team needed my help with this one.
How much better was the rear brake after the alignment of the caliper mount?
Glad your brake mount is fine now!
I know UK hand built frames cost a fortune - this should have been done by the frame builder in the first place. There is just no excuse for that + the wonky BB spacers 🤨
Interested to know if there was any offer of a direct frame replacement? Seems pretty good evidence that the frame was at fault?
@@jim4707 didn’t even bother asking. It’s a fix that is usually expected of a dealership.
What always gets me with these videos is that the manufacturers of these frames get away with what can only be called shockingly poor quality checks. How the owner managed to do 20 thousand kilometres with such a dodgy rear brake seems totally unbelievable to me as I get OCD symptoms with just the slightest rubbing of my brakes.
Update from the bike's owner: he's at about 4k, not 20k. So might have cost him annoyance and a set or two of pads. Doesn't excuse the lack of quality on an expensive frame, but at least we don't have to question the owner's sanity too much.😆
i'll show this vid to my shop manager, so maybe, just maybe, he'll finally agree to buy us some proper facing tools xd
You can not call yourself a bike shop without the tools. Just a shop.
You can't charge enough to cover the cost to buy and the time wasted to use the Park facing tool. I hate that thing with passion. Somebody needs to make a front and rear specific flat mount facing tool with a lot less adjustment, stiffer constructions, and commercially available cutting tools.
@@rattila13 totally disagree. Saves a lot of time and effort, we used it mostly to correct frames before selling, it pays itself in avoided warranty claims :)
@edghaar It's more like damage control. Warranty claims are a bigger pain, you're right, but whenever I have to use this tool I know we're losing money.
@@rattila13 The Var facer is much better. Faces all mounts, and does both at once.
I had to do this on all my bikes and even a Columbus Futura fork. I proceed by putting in the axle, then I screw 2 machinist parallels to each mounts and compare the squareness. I remove the parallels and mark the mounts with a blue Sharpie, I leave the Dykem at work, it's way too messy hahaha. I then file the mounts a little bit at a time and put back the parallels. I repeat until it's all good. It's a lot of trial and error but it works really well.
Another brand I can add to my 'overrated don't buy' list. Thanks Paul.
Like to see videos on crank spacing and chain line.
I’ll think of a way to make it interesting
@@Mapdec I think the SRAM DUB axles and the different combination of bottom brackets /spacer options would be interesting, do people use the spacers that come with the BB or the SRAM ones. We recently had to space out a T47 internal BB and DUB axle and used the SRAM spaces instead of the ones that came with the BB. We have experimented moving the spacers around to alter the chain line to improve shifting.
Love your videos. I recently bought a bike with mounts that needed facing. It should be a requirement for this to be done at the factory, rather than the bike shop or end customer.
The next tool for your workshop is a FARO arm!
Add to basket 😂
Had to do this procedure (using the Park Tool DT 5.2 disc mount facing tool) for my Look's fork, so there production precision is also not always the "shite" (referencing to Hambinis scale of brands.) To be fair, it was a frame set build together by a local bike-shop, not a bike completly manufactered by Look, maybe their quality-control would have noticed it then.
Not sure there are many bike workshops out there having the expertise and the will to do such corrections. Don't think there is any close to where I live...
Great job, impressive work!
Thank you
Great video and lovely looking bike. I also now really want that facing tool 😂
I have carried out this procedure many times . Sometimes the threads themselves can be out of perpendicularity . This would mean clearance cutting , re - tapping and oversize allen cap bolts being used . One in ten facings showed this in my experience .
As an intermediate tech, I haven't seen that many as bad as you. However, as a service writer working with my head tech, that kind of diagnosis would have me fighting for a frame warranty instead of a compromised, costly repair that shouldn't have to be done.
@@iammarkstewart I have had to do this for all the PON affiliated brands . GT , Cannondale , Santa Cruz etc . Sometimes it is easier to do this than have a customer breathing down my neck and a supplier of the bicycle being difficult about the warranty . I have a fitting and machining background from the early 1990's . The conical bushes are only used if there is no other way to get a decent facing procedure outcome . I cannot believe how many brake calipers don't quite self - centre perfectly and there is very slight rubbing if the rotor isn't absolutely true . Many riders don't notice it unless it is brought to their attention .
My favourite bicycle has international standard mounts and they are easy to set up with or without the conical bushes . My bicycle is free of rotor to pad rub after truing the front rotor . The back one was good upon initial installation . I have a huge variety of adaptors for post and I/S systems .
@@robertmcfadyen9156Well, I got lucky and my GT Force runs fine. As far as a customer breathing down my neck, I never said warranty was the only true way. If the customer's time is more valuable then sure, get the repair done and fight the warranty fight in the background. And again, as I said, you can't always use conical bushings, as would be the case with this particular frame, and any flat mount bike. Which is also a large cadre of affected bikes, and particularly difficult to deal with on a carbon frame. Sounds like a majority of your work is mtb related.
My private use bicycle abovementioned has "NO" conical bushes present as the I/S mounts were good to start with . The only time I have had to use bushes is with a few older mechanical disc brake calipers . I seldom use them now .
Always blown away by this craftsmanship!
Wow! there's a tool for this type of thing? Great job mate!
Yeah but they’re overpriced and shitty to get into that gap
Another really interesting video, Paul. Thanks!
Fun to watch you figure that one out. Turned out great!
100 out of 10 for the patiants and skill to do that
That is some great work and beautiful craftsmanship.
Excellent stuff 👏 would definitely like to see a video on crank spacing.
Outstanding quality and attention to detail as usual 👌
7:33 Just service them more often and they won't rust much, I've had mine rust a bit on one only when I neglected it a bit too long. But I also put grease at the seal and the freehub in the seal slot, to minimise water ingress. It helps. But in the conditions i rode it in snow, and puddles it gets blasted with water or gets covered in snow, so servicing it several times during the winter does the trick. At least 4 times.
On one hub I replaced the springs too, as they got worn. But can't complain. I never had any issues with Hope hubs, other than worn out bearings, which will happen on any hub eventually.
Terrific job !
Really enjoying your videos. Would have been a bonus to get a wee bike check there, as it looked like a really interesting build
I used to be old school like you when it comes to lining up the callipers until one day l slowly spun the wheel, got my finger in the rotor and ripped my nail off. I swore a bit and now use an alignment tool😮
This is becoming very common. I've had to clean and face an unacceptable amount of new Specialized Rockhoppers with post mount and Specialized Sirrus with flat mount brakes. I'm more surprised when I don't have to pull out the brake facing tool.
Nice job❤
Thanks 😄
Had the same problem on a brand new Giant TCR Advanced in 2021. The rear disc caliper mount was not square. Giant eventually replaced the entire frame.
Getting some of that dye, can really see the cuts as they happen
Great video and never seen this done before. My first thought would have been manufacturer warranty to fix what is definitely a build issue
Should be a dealer fix.
credit where credit's due. ❤
Really wishing now some tool or brake manufacturer come up with a stencil tool. All it takes is an axle and a flat piece in specific orientation. Then everyone could handfile the mounts and gauge their progress
Awesome!
I just completely ruined the freehub and axle on my old but bought at a 50%+ discount Fulcrum Rapid Red 5 wheelset, parts aren't readily available and got me thinking of upgrading the wheels. Think Hunt 4 Season or DT Swiss G1800? Heavy heavy rider, cycling every single day in every single weather condition in northern Scotland + gravel + mud + forest + bikepacking. No crazy jumps, no racing etc, but generally very rough, dirty and rusty life they'll need to endure. Anything else worthwhile in the sub 500 quid budget?
The video as always is really great to watch, and looking at someone fixing an issue with such a gorgeous bike with finesse is very rewarding!
Umm for under £500 for a set. I would reach out to @ryanbuildswheels some Bitex hubs will at least be serviceable.
@@Mapdec checked what Ryan has on offer and someone reminded me I've got the 20Twenty guys 20 miles away from home, they sorted me out with some Hope Pro5 hubs and Hope rims and I'm even happier to support a local business. Thanks for the suggestion to look for handmade wheels!
Thx for sharing, now I know another bike brand.
But quality control is a concern.
Very interresting. I'm also struggling with the perfect alignment of my brake calipers. Maybe that could be the problem.
This was very interesting, albeit not a good advertisement for the frame maker.
I did wonder whether the disc brake mount problem could have been fixed by careful filing.
You would need some even more elaborate tools to guarantee flatness and perpendicularly
Proper… artisan work..
Thank fuck I'm out of the industry now.
We had a Cannondale Supersix evo with a similar problem. It ended up going back to CSG over it.
Not sure if you can cut carbon down to make it flat???
Another tricky one to figure out was a sonder bike with a sonder wheel. Bike ran fine running Sram NX or similar until the customer upgraded to wireless AXS. Both 12 speed so you would assume all was well. It wouldn't go into 1st gear and would only reach 2nd gear with max adjustment inboard.
Lots of faffing around and phone calls to Alpkit and Sram tech got me nowhere even sending videos.
Replaced the wheel with a hope pre built and the problem went away. The location of the cassette in space was wrong as they had bodged a standard wheel up to boost by adding spacers to the axle.
We use a diamond cutter on carbon.
I had a CYCLUS facing jig given to me on my birthday in 2017 . They cost $1100 AUD . I get the mounts spot on even though my eyesight isn't great . My work is aided with the light on backdrop white paper technique . Pity you still didn't get it near perfect but okay only , as you confessed . If the problem magnifies with a large rotor you will need to correct it with conical bushings . With a 203mm rotor , it has to be very accurate indeed .
It's not recommended, or not possible (ie. flat mount), on a number of brake calipers to just insert conical bushings. In the mainstream, and in my limited experience, SRAM/Avid are the only ones who used them, and even they are going away. You can ask almost any mountain biker, you can get away with some less than stellar accuracy and still have a 203 rotor work fine. The mount portrayed here is quite a bit farther from stellar, and you're lucky if this bike will even fit a 180 rotor.
The "ok" result is not Paul's lack of skill but the manufacturer's production lapse. In fact, that it's as good as it got is because of Paul's patience and skill, and it is more than fit for purpose after this fix.
To get it perfect would risk removing too much material. Defo not using conical washers. This is damm near perfect,
It's really sad that Paul is in a very small minority of skilled professionals (across all sorts of trades) who actually reads and follows manufacturers instructions. We have such deeply ingrained attitudes against it, I guess because time is money, but with public liability and litigation becoming ever more popular you'd think attitudes would change more.
That Stayer is very disappointing , £2200 for the frameset? :/ Is it really not possible to take more care over the construction and QC it afterwards and still make a profit!? Makes for another really informative video at least, and I know there are steel frames out there at 3-4 times the price that are just as bad or worse...
I have to say that I am always impressed by and intrigued with Paul's commitment to specifications and that referring to instructions or manufacturers recommendations is just a matter-of-fact mention. I don't have Paul's skills but I am a good service writer and I always tell junior mechanics they don't have to make decisions by themselves and that it's a positive to ask for a second opinion or look up something new if you haven't done it before or it's not something we have experience in. No one knows everything, and there's so many standards and manufacturers that I can't think of a customer who would complain if you had to double check instructions for a weird crankset and got the repair right.
Aye. All our mechanics are given iPhones. The manual is always in their pocket. So is the ability to call the customer.
@@Mapdecan employer who properly enables his employees is also rare and commendable. Well done.
@@Mapdec yes thats what i like nowadays compared to 20 yrs ago. That we can easily watch and find the Manuals on a smartphone with internet.
you guys seriously rule. i never thought to check this until i watched this video. my brake problem is solved now. unfortunately, the lesson learned here is that bike frames are very complicated to manufacture and they can't all be perfect :/
Nice, a 2200 quid frame, handbuilt in the UK… with the quality of some dodgy aliexpress frame. What a joke.
The welder was drunk.
It's a lot of welding heat in a small area. It's totally normal that the mounts get distorted. What's not right is that bike companies don't face the brake mounts after welding even when paying for a custom frame like the bike in the video.
Went to my LBS today with a similar issue. Turns out he didn't even know such a tool existed. 😂
Did you show him this video?
@@Mapdec He said I needed to bring it in for a whole week so travelling from Belgium to Kendal and back would be faster actually 😁
It COULD be a bit risky to check alignment towards a painted surface as done at 3.09. You can´t always be sure that painted surfaces are level/straight. Super effort!! Rgr
I know. Could you think of a better method?
@@Mapdec I wasn´t sarcastic, "Super effort". Using a larger tool, measuring towards the inserted thru-axle? Longer distance means better accuracy. Rgr
Cool
The sad reality is that is a $500+ tool (very nice though), and the number of shops you’ll encounter with it in the USA I suggest is not that many.
To rub salt in the wound, for quite some time shops that had that tool couldn't get replacement cutting heads. It's an even worse fix trying to use that with dull cutters.
We have to send them to the states. Extortionate postage fees from Park to return them.
@@MapdecWas the same for us in Canada, even though Park is right next door. USA only.
@@Mapdec: at least in the US, any decent-sized city would have a small company who sharpens metal cutting tools. I bet you could get them sharpened locally.
I had a similar problem on a Chinese carbon frame but no local bike shop had that facing tool. But one shop did recommended buying shim washers in 0.2mm and 0.5mm and clip them in half into half moons. Then a bit of fiddle to orientate them between calliper and frame by eye but did the job.
Wow
Did you paint or seal the top of the mount after removing the paint and material?
No. Because then it wouldn’t be flat.
Is there a way of shimming a derailleur hanger (Scott) so that it's straight? My aluminum Scott frame is so wonky. Initially I thought my 10mm out of 'true' hanger, based on Park Tool DAG 3, was because I must have really bashed my bike. When I took the hanger off and checked it, was completely flush. Bought a new hanger to be sure and as soon as I mounted it, the hanger was out at the top of the wheel again by 1cm (needed to bring top in 5mm and bottom out 5mm). That's a huge amount of misalignment. I'm worried I'm going to damage the hanger. Any tips (besides not buying another Scott frame)?
The frame itself could well be out. Either bent, full of paint or rust.
I find it fascinating that most shops use these post leveling tools. In my shop we have an assortment of well kept files and just hand file these posts. These kits seem like they complicate a fairly straightforward job. What am I missing?
Flatness. Use the right tool for the job. Be professional, your customers deserve it.
I would not pay a shop to use a file, which i could do myself
Wow, did not expect the hate. Using a file is professional, when properly trained. As a Machinist, there are plenty of instances when I will utilize a hand tool and achieve better results. But, my question is answered: tools like this contraption exist because of perception and ignorance.
@kylecross8066 these tools mostly exist due to inadequate QC standards at the manufacturing stage. Im all for improvising and adapting tools for different tasks, but facing is one of the few things I'd go to a shop for, but only if they use the purpose designed tools which i dont have.
How often does a frame manufacturer cover the costs of this kind of repair?
Only if spotted when new out of the box.
@@Mapdec that is both disappointing and utterly unsurprising. Thanks!
Do post mounts suffer from similar issues? For the life of me I am not able to dial in my brakes
Yes.
It all went wrong after the penny farthing
The voices in the music really messed with my head, couldn’t concentrate on anything else 😂
Nothing much gets talked about when the music plays.
You should surely have checked that the threads in the two mounts were parallel?
It was fairly obvious where the fault was.
@@Mapdec You’ve gone to some length to solve the problem with a degree of engineering logic; but without the threads both being perpendicular, and parallel to one another you are not able to pull down the calliper evenly; as you apply more torque you will induce the calliper to flex.
Threads need clearance to operate, if you really want to enforce parallel alignment of machined faces you need a dowl (or a recessed ball bearing between mating surfaces).
Does anyone know of someone or somewhere that is capable of doing such a job in London?
Have you asked the bike kitchen? Think they are in Shoreditch.
Moral of the storey, dont buy Stayer they have rubbish QC
You would hope a custom bike would have better QC. That's seems like an obvious fault.
Bunch of hipsters that are too cool for qc…next!
Not a good look for that frame builder imho... the lack of attention to detail and pride in workmanship kind of annoys me.
Nice to see you and your shop have the tools and skills to correct that. I think a lot of mechanics know most production bikes need it unfortunately. It can potentially be a very time consuming correction but worth the function and longevity.
people do actually ride such fancy bikes? I'm surprised..
Yeah it’s my mates, and he’s out all the time on it in all conditions with me.
For a £2.2k 'hand built' frame, that's shonky.
Quite disappointed, that's a properly expensive bike. You'd expect a better build quality, this kind of thing should really be unnecessary on a bike like this.
Color looks a bit off on this video. HDR file on rec. 709 timeline?
Vlog, buttery Lut. To be fair our editor is having to use a tv monitor at the moment while we wait for a new display to arrive. It’s a hard space to light. Lots of different colour temps
Keeping in mind this is a frame that costs 2200 pounds...
You’d be surprised, it happens on frames that cost five times this
Insane. Thankfully, my alloy frame( Serotta ) was perfect out of the box. Made in Tiawan 😊
Paying for a UK made frame only for it to be inferior to one welded in the far east that cost nearly 3x less. Not a good look.
@antoinedoinell Here is the thing. Serotta wanted to sell these in the UK, I believe. Then covid, etc. Happened. I got mine marked down to 895 dollars for the frameset. Eventually, they gave up aluminum and are now exclusively titanium made in the US. I am really enjoying mine, it is the Duetti A9. Cheers.
@@jameshancock18
Actually I am not surprised. Seen it on a 7000$ Speedvagen frame and a few others over the years...
Glad to see that homemade manufacturing can be as poor as overseas. Of course we are dealing with the country that gave us Leyland……..
Another example of bike manufacturers taking the piss. Its supposed to be semi custom. So how could this happen?
Whoever assembled it didn’t check. With new brake pads it would have been ok, as they wore on a slant it would become more noticeable.
Dont buy steyer lol
VERNIER! Look it up! @2:24 there's a Digital caliper in your hand, it's clearly NOT a Vernier.
🤷♂️
@rondvivre3636 = clown
@rondvivre3636 = clown
We need to bring back rim brakes.... Its getting crazy
Precision and quality craftsmanship is not that crazy of a concept.
Oh they have their issues too.
@@antoinedoinell making things unnecessarily complicated and thus requiring precision that cant seem to be delivered is definitely crazy
@@sempi8159it’s not that complicated as displayed in the video. It requires a tool and some know how. Not that dissimilar to facing a bb or the head tube on a rim brake frame.
No. We don't. Also, that's a gravel bike. How the devil are you going to have decent width tyres running rim brakes? And no, canti's and/or V brakes aren't the answer.
you spend big money on a bike and its not even finished
bike industry got what was coming
So another high priced frame with poor fabrication quality and nonexistent QC. Nice! At least there is another maker I can put on my “No Go” list. 😀