Golf PRO'S OUTRAGED as PGA TOUR player CAUGHT CHEATING LIVE!!
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- How crazy is this right? I can't believe what i was watching! This one could of gone either way in my opinion! The golf rules can be VERY harsh sometimes but in this case maybe it doesn't seem that way for Harris English... Harris English was playing the 2nd hole at Colonial Country Club, where this bizarre rules situation started at the Charles Schwab Challenge.
This entire potential rules infraction from Harris English has golf pro's and fans divided one of those golf pro's being Harry Hall! I would love to know what you think about this potential rules Cheating that was caught LIVE on the golf channel Broadcast!
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*Whats your verdict here! Watch the entire video and let me know what you think on this POTENTIAL rules infringement*
The video was obviously checked by officials & was deemed there was no penalty no matter what anyone said. That's all that matters.
@@mikerodrick2430 I agree I think it’s the wording which is getting people to think
To Back nine films it has got nothing to do with the wording, if you read rule 9.4 not show 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years the rule in question it is quite clear. Is it certain or virtually certain that the player or his caddy caused the ball to move, nothing to do with addressing the ball grounding your club practice swing or any other nonsense. And under definitions in the rules book virtually certain is defined as 95% sure. It cannot be more simple is there a more than 95% chance that Harris or his caddy caused the ball to move. From the vision and audio of the telecast, which you conveniently omitted to show , and only from the telecast footage I have watched several times it appears that the correct decision was made. And from the footage I have watched to say that Hall was upset in anyway is almost slanderous. You must be watching something else. And to use the headline PGA Pro caught cheating is paramount to libellous
You are correct, this is a bogus story made out of thin air
@@back9films Yes, but you should retract your channel title and apologise...Just because you are somewhat grounded in a North of England accent, and claim somewhat of a golfing background, does NOT allow you to lie...
I hate this part of golf! If the ball barely moves as you ground your club, it should not matter at all. You still have to hit the ball. I hate nit picky technicalities.
So how much is barely, quarter of an inch, half an inch, eighth of an inch or just as barely as to get it out of the the little depression it may be in? Why is it that people call a rule that they do not like or does not suit them “technical or nit picky”. There is no such thing as a “technical” rule. The rule is the rule nothing more nothing less. The new rules have even been rewritten to simplify, but clearly reading the comments posted here almost nobody has taken the time to read. The rule in Question is 9.4. There isn’t even a rule 26 now and hasn’t been for a few years. Learn the rules and play by them if you wish to ply in any competition or submit a card for handicap, I will almost guarantee you that abiding strictly to the rules will help you rather than hinder you. If you don’t want to play by the rules, fine, no problems but just play social golf against others who are “cheating” and not against others who do play by the rules and respect the game of golf.
The lie of a ball can vary tremendously in just a quarter inch of movement. There are certainly some nitpicking rules in golf, but this is NOT one of them.
David I agree, the ball either moves or it doesn’t, I am asking those idiots who say it DOESN’T matter if it moves a little bit. Tell me what they consider “a little bit” to be. If you are going to accept that it doesn’t matter if it moves a little bit everyone’s little bit is going to be different, you might as well make it preferred lies everywhere. This video is disgusting. It is clickbait and so are pretty well all of this channel content
@@glenwood9190 totally agree with you. Rules are just rules. Play by them or don’t play.
@@glenwood9190this is the trouble with online “conversation”. You can take a simple statement from someone like that of the original commenters. Then say, “My word!! Someone has made a terrible error and I need to… No I must correct them so they know the error of their ways and just how stupid they truly are”. When in reality he/she was just making a comment and was in no need of a lecture. Thank you for your information, but might work on the presentation as not to come off an uppity prick.
What bothers me about this video is the title. The title states as fact in caps that a player has been caught cheating. The actual video reveals a call for opinions about it, and the player actually was not penalized, and therefore not "caught". This is happening a LOT on youtube now, where titles are misleading and sensationalized. The worst are the JWST ones about the Big Bang. It reeks of shoddy informational practices.
Absolutely correct observation Brian....this clown should apologise to Harris English specifically and to viewers generally, and he should STOP his reporting antics.
This guy is a fucking YAHOO
100% right ..this clown is just looking for hits..
Several things at play here.
1). Are Scottsdale Golf and Puma happy with their logos front and centre on this contentious video.
2). Players use language to benefit themselves. How many players have been in real bother and claimed they were going to play the shot left handed, low and behold they find a rabbit scrape and get a free drop?!
3). Ask the player who missed keeping his tour card based on the outcome of such decisions.
This thread had me weak 😂
I think at this point they should just change the rules like they did on the green and have it read “did you intend in any way to make the ball move or create a scenario that would make it move” can’t tell if he cheated or not here but it’s a dumb rule as written.
I totoally agree!!
Totally agree! Why put so much pressure on the players? In this case, will it really make any difference other than shame on the other?
Another rule, away from this one is having to play from divots that should go away. It's really no different than fixing pitch marks on the green or fixing spike marks. Those who played in the morning had perfect greens & a divot is no different even tho it's during the entire tournament, although, few divots on Thursday is another benefit. I just don't like players being punished, in a sense, for something out of their control that could affect the final outcome. They should be considered ground under repair. On the other side of the coin, our bunkers are too easy for pros.
The correct rule and the rule the referee used says just that, when it is known or virtually certain that the player or their caddy caused their ball to move. Under definitions in the rules virtually certain means 95% or more
I went back and watched the incident again to see what I missed first time I watched and thought nothing of the situation. what vision were you watching, to say Hall was effected in any way is nothing short of liable and Harris described what he did from looking at the vision. And the correct ruling was made.
I was a former USGA rules official, in these situation we lesson to everyone but at the end of day, we take the impacted player word as the final statement and go from there. However, using TV replay can also be used to help make the proper ruling.
Nicklaus never grounded his club for this very reason.
And I ground my club vigorously for a different reason lol
He might have seen the ball move while he was practicing his stroke and thought it meant nothing. Then, when he got over the ball he had a second thought and said to himself, "I better say something," and pulled out of address position.
I believe he said "the ball is still moving" when he mentioned it to his caddy and playing partners. As in, he saw it moving/settling before he addressed it, which is no penalty and is played where it comes to rest, but then as he addressed it, the ball continued to move. So, since it was already moving a little, it could be concluded that his addressing the ball didn't start the ball to move. Thats what he explained to the rules officials and they concluded there should be no penalty.
No video of alleged incident, so no value in any argument either way
When you address the ball in the rough, it can move very easily. He very likely caused it to move. A rule that should change as well - inadvertent striking the ball off the green, and not in a hazard.
For fucks sake, what is wrong with you people, the rule is the rule, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do not cause the ball to move unless making a shot. And please do not bring up you can do it on the green, it is a different set of circumstances and the rule was changed to cover those situations. Just play by the rules and play the ball as it lies, it is called rub of the green. If you don’t like the rules play social golf and no one gives a fuck or find another game.
Your statement of him addressing the ball and the ball moves is a violation. That is a blatant misread of the rules. It says a golfer has to ground his club. It is only as he makes a stance in a hazard that that ruling applies as you stated it. Wake up!
Knowing the rules is so important. Harris English used his knowledge of the rules to his advantage. A lot of pros have done it to educate yourself on the rules, and it will help you.
Don’t you think after 60 minutes of review somebody would have noticed he was at address and assess the penalty if that were the fact please! He called it on his self to have it reviewed. Had he not said anything nobody would have noticed it.
You are wrong! The rest of the world may have seen it! He is aware of cameras around and passed the bacon to the rules official!
9.4
Ball Lifted or Moved by Player
This Rule applies only when it is known or virtually certain that a player (including the player’s caddie) lifted their ball at rest or the player's or their caddie's actions caused it to move.
I was actually watching this when it happened, and we didn't get a great look at it on camera, whether it moved when he addressed it, or when he took a practice stroke. Yeah, maybe he fibbed a little to avoid a penalty, but the rules are stupid when it comes to this. The ball oscillating forward a touch didn't really affect his next shot. He tanked it on Sunday with a +6 anyways, so it didn't really matter. I like the PGA tour giving him the benefit of the doubt, because there is just too much of this nonsense. A penalty should only be accessed when a clear advantage would be gained. I don't think he gained any advantage here with the ball oscillating by millimeters.
Rule 26 doesn't exist anymore fore seberel years.
There are only 25 rules nowadays.
Now it is rule 9.2 :
9.2
Deciding Whether Ball Moved and What Caused It to Move
and furtherone
9.2b
Deciding What Caused Ball to Move
But the outcome stays the same. If you cause to move the ball, you get a penalty.
The guy just outright lied to the rules official, if he thought that ball was moving in the slightest, he would have stepped back and not addressed it. Why would he take the risk?
are you his eyes and brain? its inconclusive. maybe he was on autopilot. or thought nothing of it or didnt register at all until he was at address
My opinion is that the rule needs to be rewritten to evoke penalty only if player actually moves it to get an advantage from the current lie. Otherwise just try to replace the ball in the previous position or close as can be, no penalty.
Imagine getting mad your opponents ball moved 2 cm
If this happened to PatrickReed he would be declared a cheater by golf tv channel and brandel Chambly would be calling him out everywhere!
Reed IS a Cheating scum bag doesn’t need branding again
Yes
Because of his reputation
Exactly
@@58nomad Golf channel played a big part in hurting Reed's reputation. That's why he's suing them.
@LRN_News Reed hurt Reeds reputation and the golf channel reported it.
Thanks for bringing this up so I can watch a different video of this for only 1:30
Need to see a clip, where is the video?
Jack Nicklas said he never grounded his club behind the ball so as to NOT incur a penalty if it moved.
With the ball against the rough, did anyone see English "ground" his putter into the ground. A shot like that a Pro won't be grounding his putter. He'll hover it as he knows he's going to make a descending blow on the golf ball and pop it out towards the hole.
Much-a-do about nothing. But this is the internet and everything is a controversy.
All just conjecture unless you have video of the entire thing. You don't have it, I haven't seen it, all we can do is take his word on it.
Good chat......The bottom line is that tour officials are weak. They dont properly challenge the players. Look at how weak the official in Dubai was when dealing with Patrick Read. English obviously knew what he was doing and the pros are experts at using the rules. problem is if the player is insistent then the officials need to be strong and smell the rats!
Great point. That rules official in Dubai literally let Patrick Reed define the entire process of identifying "his" ball in the tree. If it was me, I'd have asked him to show me the golf balls in his bag to prove his identification marks matched the ball in the tree. The whole thing was even more embarrassing for the official once we learned they weren't even looking at the right tree.
I'm imagining if you're using a putter with the longer rough behind the ball, you won't ground your club afraid it will get caught.
And Jack nicklaus's book he said if at all possible he would not ground the club at address so he wouldn't cause the ball to move. The fact is your club should coming into the ball with some air before it would make contact (almost all shots) if that makes sense.
I hate to inform you that there is no Rule 26 in golf any longer. That disappeared after the rules change of 2019. If he caused the ball to move, Rule 9.4 applies with a 1 stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced to the original spot. If it is determined that the ball moved due to natural forces, there is no penalty and the ball must be played from it's new location. The rules official has to make the determination based on his interaction with the player and any witnesses. Unfortunately, after the official makes a decision (even if it is later proven to be wrong) then that decision stands and the player must proceed accordingly based upon that decision.
Some golfers have a set routine. A few practice strokes and then address the ball. He may have just gone through the whole routine without thinking out of habit. Doesnt mean him stopping after addressing is when the ball moved.
I agree this is a great point!
This is what sucks about Professional golf. The ball moving 5mm before the ball is struck means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and this is foolishness. Especially when you consider there are starving children in the world. ( I know it’s an unrealistic comparison but seriously)
What set of rules did you use to quote 26-1(iv)(b)? As of January 2023 the "Official Guide to the Rules of Golf" has the end of Rule 25 - Modifications for Players with Disabilities on page 325. Page 326 is the start if the Definitions section. THERE IS NO RULE 26 IN THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE RULES OF GOLF. You should read the current Rule 9.4b Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing it to Move. Your argument is based on the wording of an old rule that no longer exists. For example, the current rule 9.4 makes no reference to "addressing the ball".
He apparently gained no advantage because he did not move the ball away from the rough. So why would he lie and then gain no advantage.
Interesting use of the word "cheating" Alex! English did the right thing by bringing a tour official over when he saw the ball move. English then gave his interpretation of what happened to the tour official. Hall evidently was standing there while all of this was going on. Shouldn't he have said something then if he thought that English's interpretation and what Hall saw was different. Then, a official investigation took place and nothing conclusive was found to dispute English's remarks. What should we conclude from this if nothing wrong was found in the investigation? To me, this is called "rules interpretation!" Happens all of the time. Sometime for the good and sometime for the bad!
Why was Rory not called out for knowing the rules about his ball being embedded but all of sudden didn't know the rule of where the drop should had been?
Harris clearly grounded his club and had addressed the ball. He knows the truth and should be assessed a 1 stroke penalty.
It has nothing to do with addressing the ball or grounding your club. You need to use the latest edition of the Rules of Golf before rabbiting on and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. There isn’t a rule 26!!!!!!!! Try looking at rule 9.4
Why is there a rule regarding ball movement where the player hasn't touched the ball? So, what is the big deal about ball movement when the player is addressing the ball and has not touched the ball? What if an earthquake occurred to cause the ball to move at the precise moment the player addresses the ball? Should the player be penalised for that? The rule is ridiculous and why I won't play tournament golf.
The golf gods always make it right because he finished the tournament T12 and final round of 76.
Which would explain why Koepka lost the Master's on the final round due to the cheating incident between his caddy and Gary Woodland's during round #2.
Yes I do believe in the golfing Gods.
I hope my lawyer is as smart as this guy.
Murkey. The question should be did he hit the ball or no.
I suppose the rules are not written that way.
However to address the ball, you must place your club immediately behind the ball.
Where exactly is immediately?
Immediately would be a location, where there is no middle between ball and club.
So that means contact. The only place a golf club could be where it was immediately ahead or behind the ball is where the golf club head is in contact with the ball from ahead or behind. That means you don't address a ball until you have made contact with it. However, if you are on the side, you are allowed to hit it? That makes zero sense.
Just change the rules of golf to the laws of golf, then it could be settled in a Supreme Court. Rules are made for children, laws are made for adults who know better.
If he would've used the "foot wedge" this wouldn't even be an issue. Smh.
This is so dumb. Golf needs to make room for these clearly-inadvertent events.
Stupid discussion. Golf has an honest system for a reason.
If you don't have PROOF that he did wrong, stop insinuating that he was cheating.
The fact that the playing partner didn't see anything seem to react it's just proof of his presumption that he wouldn't have been alerted to the situation if it was during the practice shot. A stupid idea to begin with as I believe he would have been alerted regardless of when the ball moved. To me, his reaction is just bad form.
Surly players know there are cameras everywhere. To cheat under those circumstances or to suspect anybody of doing so is just stupid in my opinion.
I have no idea about this situation as I didn't see it but I starting to get a bit tired of this channel's attempt to make BREAKING NEWS out of very small thing day after day.
If people have proof, show it, otherwise just shot the heck up!
Same with Reed there's no proof of him cheating
I do tend to agree with you in most of these circumstances. However I am curious as to why English didn’t notify someone at the precise moment it happened. If we can believe what the playing partner said, he had addressed the ball before notifying him. And the video footage I think would certainly show whether or not he had addressed the ball before notifying his partner.
But apparently there was a hot mic that picked up his voice saying the ball had moved? When did this happen??? I can’t find video footage anywhere.
@@Pseudify The same problem for me. No video anywhere. Anyway: 100 % in agreement with what you're saying. However. My view is this. The playing partner surely has his focus on his own task. It's pretty easy to misunderstand and (this is my own experience) People who tend to see cheating when it actually was something else for the most part have a tendency to cheat themself. (I don't know this guy at all.)
Therefore I always take others' testimony with a grain of salt. (We don't know their presumptions and can't judge how trustworthy their observations are.)
The video would have been perfect. However; Up until we have that one I do trust the player's statement.
Isn't the new rule if the ball moves and you did not intend to hit it you then move it back with no penalty even on the putting green when addressing the ball. I thought I heard that's a new rule just curious
No penalty only on green.
Had an opponent in a 4 ball match who followed us around all day making sure we played by the rules. On the 2nd hole of sudden death he judges his ball to be in casual water when it was actually in a drainage area crossing the fairway that had rocks in the bottom of it. I called him out and said that's a creek and there is no free drop. Really pissed him off especially when I strapped a 7 iron approach on the next hole to win. We exchanged a lot of words at that point. I asked the pro when I got back to the clubhouse and he said it was definitely a creek and no free drop.
Fantastic, knowing and playing by the rules more often helps than hinders.
Social media has a lot to answer for.
By stepping up to take your shot, it does not mean you have yet addressed you ball. You have to set up to it... if the ball moves as you step up to address it, you can notify your playing partners, and replace the ball to it's original position... and carry on. Harry Hall (and his caddie) never saw what happened and he misunderstood Harris English's description of what occurred. They immediately drew their own (incorrect) conclusions and let their emotions ruin their own day/game. Golf is a game of honor and it has a way of working in tandem with karrma and together they make the necessary adjustments. I leave players (in competition) make their own decisions, right or wrong but I'm there to assist and not insist because in the end, they will have to face the Golf Gods... and I don't want any external situation to affect MY game.
This rule is ridiculous…if the ball wiggles a little but doesn’t move more then a sixteenth or eighth of an inch or maybe rocks a little due to the turf/ ground lie or maybe a stiff wind when the player begins his pre shot routine it should not be a penalty…
If the player appears to have improved his lie by a purposeful action (there are cameras everywhere) that’s a different issue. This rule sets up the player to look like he is possibly cheating and can cause nothing but bad vibes all around.
A 550 yard hole and the player gets a penalty stroke for a ball that possibly barely moves as he begins a pre shot routine …dump the rule.
Wow, I didn’t think there was anything I could care less about. Gentleman’s game. Accept what he said and move on. People act like that inch it moved gives some unfair advantage.
Should’ve been penalized one-stroke for causing the ball to move because it was an address mode and should’ve been also penalized another stroke for not placing the ball back in its original place that is meaning of two-stroke penalty
I have two takeaways from this. For one, what do you mean if you don't move the ball back you could incur a 2 stroke penalty? The rule you've shown on screen clearly says if the ball has moved due to addressing it or grinding the club then it's a one stroke penalty and you play the ball as it now lies.
And two. Yes he technically did "cheat" let's say. But I'm sorry, Hall should still not be upset. Do you want to win the tournament because you actually won it, or because another player got a "penalty" based on a rule that provided him absolutely no advantage. And I'm sure I'm in the minority here and most of you will argue, hey that's golf those are the rules. But any true competitor will understand what I mean. I want to earn my win I don't want it handed to me by a silly rule that wouldnt make a difference in the score if it didn't exist. The bigger issue is golf is a game of honestly and yes he should be honest, but Hall should not care one way or the other what happens. The only advantage one way or the other would go to Hall not English.
The movement of a golf ball by a small fraction of an inch can change the lie dramatically. And given that he was up against taller grass, even more so. This is no trivial rule!
Absolutely Correct!
The rule should be changed to never address within a range that may cause movement. I.e. any lie with a lot of nature behind the ball. Then only swing like in the sand.
Thats bull shit from my side if a ball is in the ruf
The grass founds downwards with the weight off the ball
So you can blame nobody
Good Grief! Some of these rules are ridiculous. What did it move a millimeter.?
I know right it is silly when you think about
So you are saying a little bit is alright. Tell me how much is a little bit? 1mm, 2mm, 5mm or just a little to get it out of the depression the ball is lying in. The ball is hanging over the edge of the hole it is only a little bit should we count that as in? There is only a little bit of the ball in the penalty area that’s ok?
same rule should apply to the entire course NO MATTER WHAT, as it is when accidently making ball move off the tee in tee box, no penalty re-tee it and hit it, rule 6.1a,, NO INTENT should be the governing idea to all shots or strokes whether in your stance or not, other drive me crazy rule not allowed to fix a ball mark OFF the green in your line, the governing rule should be 13.1c(2) for the entire golf course
don't confuse addressing the ball with grounding the club
I walked up to my ball the other day on a steep slope and it began moving down the slope . I think the vibrations from my steps made it move . It ended up another 20 feet further from the hole . I then addressed the ball and it moved another 3 feet ! A stroke penalty or 2 strokes if I did not move it back nearer to the hole seems ridiculous to me ! 😂
I lost out on making my high school team when a dude hit a ball OB, had to walk back and replay #9 with our group behind, took four more shots to reach the green, 3 putts and disappears. He allegedly wrote down a 6 and took off, yet with several witnesses the coach called it "hearsay" and miffed it. Needless to say I missed out and he went on to be the worst player in the entire conference.
He said, she said! Going on a two sided narrative without actually seeing the action.....who the hell knows!
Stirring the pot here.
Where we putting this in relation to Reeds… numerous brushes with the rules? Is it on par, is it worse because he knew as soon as he spoke to Hall what the repercussions were going to be and knew what to say to the official to influence the ruling in his favour..
it’s the intent which needs to be questioned.
The rule refers to grounding the club. I may be wrong but I think I’ve read elsewhere that club head being in contact with top of long-ish rough does not constitute grounding. “Addressing the ball” does not constitute grounding, an earlier post correctly referred to J Nicklaus’ career-long practice. Also agree with earlier post about headline. Our opinions are not proof.
The rules say if the ball moves AFTER the player has grounded his club. So the only question is did he address the ball AND ground his club. If he didnt`t ground his club there is no penalty.............
A ball can oscillate without penalty. This means that it does move but does not change position. That’s it. I’m sick of crybabies and better known players getting their way.
Looks like he is from the Patrick Reed school of golf 😮
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His rule references are from 2018 and prior. There is no rule 26. The standard for determining whether a player is penalized was changed in 2019, and is covered in Rule 9.
This really is a pretty dumb rule in the first place because if you ground the club behind the ball and cause it to move it's probably going to be a worse lie than what you had because gravity will cause it to become lower to the ground. How exactly is that gaining an advantage? To me the rule should always have been if at any point you ACCIDENTALLY cause the ball to move away from the green that you notify your playing partners and put it back exactly as it was. That would make much more sense.
You are looking at the old rules before the overhaul a few years ago. Please check current Rule 9.2
I wish I knew at the start that you had no video.
Why don’t you show the video?
I've gone cross eyed
Hot Gossip. Hot News? Bloody cold by the time you finished your monologue
SO glad I was not the only one who saw this and knew he had LIED...
Which player is this? Harris Reed or Patrick English?
They need to change the rules if its not intentional movement of the ball by the player,
he should get to replace it without penalty , i love the game but some of the rules are just insane!
Two things: 1) You quote Rule 26-1. I do not find Rule 26-1 on the USGA web site on the rules of golf. Even still, you talk about "addressing the ball" vs "grounding the club". A player can touch the grass behind the ball while not grounding the club and thereby has not caused the ball to move. 2) Regardless, Mr. English did not gain a clear advantage either way and in the spirit of the game and the rules should not have been penalized. Any player "outraged" by this should take a step back.
Unfortunately with the way PGA Golf is going and with the amount of money now involved for each and every stroke in the final count. The "Breaches" are becoming more and more prevalent and I feel you can nearly find an example of this every tournament. Not only saying that but for years it seemed that the Rules Officials would also "manipulate" the rules to suit the elite, for example Tiger Woods' 11 man "loose impediment" or Phil Mickelson's "picked up ball" from the OB Carpark. We all have to remember that MONEY speaks it's own language and the game will never be the same for it.
Tiger was legally allowed to have that rock moved. It is in the rules. The rock was loose so could be moved. How many people have to do it makes no difference.
@@BatMan-oe2gh Yeah I get that it’s in the rules, the question comes down to how you define “loose” if it takes that many to move it.
@@stephenpage7974 I didn't make the rules, and even I thought Tiger pushed the rules in that instance. The rules official deemed it was a loose impediment, so Tiger could do what he did as the rules official green lighted it. Cheers
Love to see the video
At the end of the match Hall should of gonme to the media and explain what he saw.......
Storm in a tea cup!
The rules official has failed to get the correct information. English said "when it first moved it {the club} was right here" which I'm sure was true. The official has then made his decision based on this statement. But that isn't enough information to arrive at a decision because there was clearly more than one movement of the ball, based on the statement by English, why else would he have used the phrase "first moved"?
The official should have then asked "but did it move again after you addressed the ball?"
Because, based on all the other evidence available, presumably it did?
External oblique muscles, Nat told me
She's da man
THERE IS NO RULE 26!! However, if it can be shown that the player caused the ball to move, yes, it’s a one stroke penalty, whether he addressed the ball or not.
It’s Rule 9.4.
It's a nonsense of a rule. An intentional stroke to move the ball should be involved
The act of “addressing “ the ball is not clear.
Correct me if I’m wrong but grounding the the club behind the ball constitutes having addressed the ball.
I never ground any of my clubs.
PenguinGolf
Integrity of golf versus money 🧐
What I don’t understand is that he told Hall and his caddie it moved after he addressed the ball, so why didn’t hall and his caddie tell the rules official? They should have done this to protect the other players in the competition 🤔
For fucks sake, English told the referee the ball moved, he told hall it moved, there is no dispute from anyone the ball moved, the issue is not whether the ball moved, that was established, the issue is what or who caused the ball to move.
Why didn't you show us the film instead of trying to destroy a guy with click-bait claims. Proof is necessary
Patrick Reed relieved this video is not about him.
It’s a gentleman’s game of honor. We take people at their word. Move on.
use the honor system until it has been proved otherwise, in which case make your own judgement as to if it was an honest mistake or not so we know if we can continue with him on the honor system.
If he originally deemed it necessary to inform the people around him that there was a possible problem, then deciding to use terminology to rules official to abdicate him of the responsibility indicates he has changed the wording to his benefit. Which is not playing the game as it is intended therefore cheating, but the rules official can only work from what he is told.
This should be shame on the player who by announcing the movement of the ball to all around him at the time should be ashamed.
To avoid these type of situations, I never adhere to the rules of golf. I don't play in tournaments and if I'm playing with some person(s) I don't know I always state upfront that I will take mulligans, I will move my ball to a better lie, and I never keep score, that being said I don't improve anything on the green. I could be wrong about the person who said this but I think it might have been Pat Bradley who said "amature golfers should hit em 'till there happy as long as they're not holding up play." I agree and I always have fun and leave the course happy.
Over a long period of time the integrity of the game has changed. While in no way similar to this, in the 2018 U.S. Open, Phil Mickelson intentionally hit a moving ball. He intentionally broke the rules of golf in arguably the biggest stage in golf. He should have been disqualified. Dottie Pepper said on air that Mickelson was "just using the rules of golf to his advantage". The rules of golf are in place so that a player doesn't gain an advantage. I lost a lot of respect for Dottie when she said this. Mickelson said later that "he thought about doing this at the Masters" and I had visions of the Phil being dragged off of Augusta National.
Well I got told by a Pro that the rules state that a ball can move but not off it's original spot at address, meaning if the ball had moved for Harry but then went back to the original spot then it's fine otherwise it's a penalty
If you are reporting what the Pro said precisely he is correct, apart from the fact of using the word address, the definition of the term moved is as follows,
“When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).
This applies whether the ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.
If the ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, the ball has not moved.”
So it is not only at address, it could be when trying to remove a twig or stone, or anything that is defined as a loose impediment. It could be an outside influence, another ball, animal etc.
The issue here is not whether the ball moved, it did, that was undeniably established. The issue is who or what caused the ball to move. Rule 9.4 is the rule that covers this situation. What is misleading, no incorrect, is this channel displayed a rule 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years.
So in short, for the player to receive a penalty under rule 9.4 it has to be known or virtually certain the player or his caddy caused caused the ball to move. In the rule definitions “virtually certain” is 95% or more. From the broadcast audio and vision I have seen, and from a reported further 60 mins of investigation by tournament officials, it appears to me and obviously to them that the correct decision and outcome was made. Good golfing
@glenwood9190 yeah I agree with everything you have said and that was what the pro told me as well, though it was a while ago when he said it. What is really misleading is when the guy said about the ball moving but never mentioned how much it moved or if it moved off it's spot
Was there film? Cheating is so damning, I would like to see film. Don’t want to create another Reed. I fast forward thru all Reed appearances on telecasts.
Golf has a growing honesty problem -boy do I have some stories -but I don’t think Harris English is the problem.
Imo this highlights how terrible the pga tour handles rulings specifically on live tv.
This official should have been notified immediately this was on tv and to hang on as they review it.
Harris imo did everything he could to explain the situation.
Part of the problem with not watching the coverage -whether officials or commentators - is the story gets skewed.
The other bigger problem is the rules themselves.
The question that must be asked: considering the rules now pardon moving the ball accidentally on the green -so long as it’s replaced-and considering when the ball is not on the green the difference between one stroke and two strokes is based if the player replaces the ball. So the precedent is set for a player picking up the ball and replacing it to save a stroke. So why not make it one stroke (or two) if played from the new spot but NO penalty stroke if it was moved inadvertently and replaced with every intention to recreate the lie exactly as it was. Of course playing partners should play a role in that. And of course the player cannot have moved it on purpose or through anger.
As we learned in the legend of bagger Vance, no class gofer wants to win that way. Sometimes courses are too spongy. Unless a player does something abnormal, it should just be replaced. Officials should be always how often it happens to any player ..and it should need to be used often.
Over 8 mins of havering asking us what we think but wheres the video showing us what actually happened🤔
This happens to every golfer multiple times per round if not per hole. Stupid rule.
They are playing 'competitors', not 'partners'.
At address or not there is a difference between a ball moving by itself or the playa having touched the ball causing it to move. 🤔
Windbag with no video, looks like bedroom set up. Poor.
He told it like it was and the rules official had to agree with him