Why is Improvisation SO DIFFICULT for Classical Musicians?
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2021
- It's a little more complex than lack of knowledge and experience with chords and harmony...but the psychology and culture behind improvisation. These are my personal viewpoints and experience with this, as a classically trained pianist/composer.
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#improvisation #classicalmusic #psychology - Hudba
When I was in college, I was good friends with the two best keyboard players on campus. One was classically trained and my jaw dropped when I watched her flawlessly sight-read Rampal's Suite for flute. The other was self-trained and couldn't read notes on a page, but boy could he jam on the keyboard. The two were in awe of each other.
How beautiful life is when you can be happy for someone else who has something you do not.
@@ruairioceallaigh8882lol
Philip glass said something very similar about working with aphex twin.
@@ruairioceallaigh8882 It makes life much more rich and fulfilling
When did they marry?
It's also the mindset of perfection, precision and "playing it right" that is instilled in classical musicians from a young age which can create a lot of anxiety about "doing the wrong thing". I've noticed that outside of music, jazz musicians tend to be more laid back, comfortable at being spontaneous and doing things "on the fly", whilst classical musicians tend to have more neurotic and obsessive tendencies.
Yes yes exactly! That’s what I’ve been trying to unlearn as a jazz musician with a classical childhood :)
Its almost like a trauma response to mistakes lol.
that's me
I'm very glad I didnt get that. I played violin and some recorder, but the piano I learned by myself and the point for me has always been to experiment with the knowledge you have. Leraning harmony, counterpoint, partimento etc, is enough for you to improvise.
Improvisation is gambling.
And, there are times that no improvisation is the best improvisation.
I started off at age 4 with classical lessons from a Julliard trained teacher who also taught in the NYC public schools. In 10 years at age 14, my urge to improvise on everything I played became overpowering, and he and I realized we had come to the end of the road. My parents were not pleased but my teacher convinced them that he could go no further with me. After being liberated form reading notes, I became a passionate Jazz and Gospel lover because of all the improvisational opportunities they offered. Looking back now at age 82, I realize that my classical training was not wasted and I can still read proficiently. What I gained in jazz and gospel, was the theory behind everything I was playing - modes, alternate keys, etc. So after 78 years of playing (now retired) I dont regret starting out as I did, but Im sure glad I left when I did.
That's such a good story :)
I've been a classical composer and lover of improvising for years but I ALWAYS have improvised in "Romantic" fashion. Wagnerian/Straussian improvisation just seemed to come naturally to me once I had assimilated the style/styles enough, and that tends to be my compositional mode (though I contain, or try to, my style within actual compositions by developing variation and by maintaining the primacy of recognizable, recurring motifs, again like Wagner and the post-Wagnerians). I had little desire to improvise in the Jazz or popular idioms, for whatever reason, though I love LISTENING to a lot of that .
This is how I want to learn music theory lol, I have taken theory courses but it never sticks because I just cant stand trying to read a textbook to understand music. I think improv is the best way to learn (starting with fluency in the basics, obviously)
@@a23oj28 10:13 thanks
Beautiful story. I also started with classical music, and I was amazed how I started learning way more about music when I took jazz lessons. For some reasons people think that jazz musicians are musically illiterate, but in fact they tend to understand music much better than classical performers.
I can identify with this. A few years back, a friend trained in classical piano discovered that I was in a rock / blues band as a keyboard payer, then, out of nothing, he asked me how to improvise. The guy can literally bury me alive with skill, discipline and the ability to follow a sheet fast as a computer, yet, the guy can't just pick the music key and go crazy?
The weird thing here is that playing by ear, improvising and reading music all take the same skill of learning to do very well.
The real problem is that most people don’t realize that there is a “how” to learn to improvise. They somehow think it is an innate ability.
Just like reading, improv is a learned skill. And can be taught. But people do not get taught. Most have to figure it out on their own. Much unlike reading.
@@pjbpiano I can improvise, but I absolutely suck at reading sheet music. And I think you're absolutely right, the process of trying to learn to sightread feels identical to the way I taught myself to play whichever instrument I could get my hands on really... I just hardly improve because I have to start at a level that's much lower than my other skills are and I tend to fall back to playing by ear if I know what it's supposed to sound like. The difference between the two skills is that there are many experienced teachers for reading, but way fewer for improvisation (and people often don't consider that they might exist, so they don't look for them), and improvisation requires more creativity (although one can certainly be creative with classical pieces). In general, getting help with reading is easier and a more "known" thing that one can do... And it's the standard thing music schools will do as well, so it's the more common skill overall. It would be awesome if there was a website where classically trained individuals and autodidacts could match up to help each other, like language exchanges, because in the end that's what it would be. What do you think?
@@aleixonline, I completely agree with you on everything you said.
Classical musician: "I know 27 scales, 385 keys, and 2786 chords, and can play in 8 time signatures... I don't know enough to improvise!"
Rock musician: "I know three chords and one time signature... that's enough!"
"I know 27 scales, 385 keys, and 2786 chords" That's Jazz.
"I know 1337 rules of counterpoint" Now that's classical.
czcams.com/users/EarlyMusicSourcescom
Try this. We'll talk later.
The rock musician part is more of pop music than rock
@@kirstencristobal3204 nah, pop music is more "write music? I have a team of ten writers and producers to do that stuff for me!" 😛
Rock musicians: I know E minor scale, lets do it!
It seems like I’m the polar opposite of you Nahre. I am MOST comfortable when I’m improvising, and the LEAST comfortable when I have to replicate a piece precisely, like a classical piece. Perhaps it’s because I was self-taught as a pianist, but I would never play the same song twice in the exact same way... there would always be elements of the arrangement that were improvised. And thus I’ve always struggled to learn and play classical music as it’s almost like you’re not allowed to take liberties with it... you have to play it note for note! Great video 😊
It feels to me like there used to be a lot more freedom in the way people played. This might not be *exactly* what you're talking about, but maybe it will be a fun listen for you anyway! Here are a few old recordings (some from piano rolls) of some old masters playing the famous Chopin C# minor Waltz.
Pachmann:
czcams.com/video/GE-sgWk5Lxg/video.html
Rachmaninoff:
czcams.com/video/V05ljw1uCPo/video.html
Hoffman:
czcams.com/video/sVSe5lXAhXg/video.html
Horowitz:
czcams.com/video/JhvVtuzHYWo/video.html
Same here.
I wouldn't say that you're the polar opposite of nahre, as nahre is a really fluent improviser from the videos I've seen of her practicing and composing, and so I think she's pretty comfortable in both worlds. I'm a jazz pianist through and through, so I also prefer to be away from the page as much as possible, though I can relate to what the classical musicians feel in this video. I'd like to learn to play beautiful classical music, but being in a whole different frame of mind from what I'm used to is really challenging
Same. I grew up self-taught playing piano, bass, guitar. For my audition for music school, I memorized some bach cello stuff and played it on electric bass. I'm surprised I made it in. I struggled with sight reading the whole way through music school, but I could learn stuff by listening to it a bunch and memorizing how it was supposed to sound.
And that's all that improvisation is... you just play what you have in your internal ear, your brain's ear. If you have a good melody line, you can usually already hear the whole thing before the chords come at you.
And if you don't have anything in your head, either you need to just wait a second, or you need to spend more time learning to play other stuff by ear.
" I am MOST comfortable when I’m improvising, and the LEAST comfortable when I have to replicate a piece precisely." same altho i make music with hardware synths its all improvising for me
My perspective as a violin teacher: to be a succesful musician (classical or improvising) you have to practice, and be really critical when listening to yourself. The problem is that many people interpret this as having to react immediately to any mistake and try to correct it on the spot. Whith this mindset, when you start to improvise, you will tend to freeze immediately because everything will be "wrong" in the beginning. But also when playing a classical piece - it is much better to let the mistake just happen, and work on it later. This will also make your classical playing freer.
Actually, I make my pupils improvise a lot (especially in the beginning stages). Even if they decide that impro is not for them, they become happier and freer classical musicians, I hope.
Hans lub
how fascinating
I like to fix it in the second repetition lol. that or find a funny way to get it to make sense. But great way of letting them be more present with themselves and the sounds, which is what both are about
this was my problem - a lot of stress doing a mistake that everyone hears.
As a former keyboard/piano teacher, I agree, it is just a plain common sense effective learning technique,... always "play through" mistakes rather than immediately stop and stutter repeat, and get all flustered. If you make a mistake, You play all the way through and then go back to the beginning, and do it again a little more slowly until You get all the way through without wrong notes. Then stop until the next practice. The last response, is the learned response, so stutter corrections, teach you to keep making the same mistake, and to be ashamed.
That said being a performer, involves a different mindset than being a music creator.
Imagining a shakespearean actor taking an improv class would make a great SNL sketch
What a great idea FOR an SNL sketch.
SNL is not funny.
@@nmonye01 Not anymore, unfortunately... But it used to be, years ago.
Check out the Reduced Shakespeare Company--an absolute legend
Shakespeare was the improviser. Great actors improvise again on his works, the rest are record players. For a classic, classic SNL about improvisation, John Belushi’s Beethoven vs, the vacuum cleaner.
When you're only exposed to carefully and slowly crafted, through composed music, when you try to improvise you expect what comes out to match that level of planning. To blow you need to let that go. Not every note needs to be a sign of genious. Channel energy and make people's feet tap instead of projecting the wisdom of a great composer. That's my take
Great advice!!!
💯 agree
indeed
When you play a wrong note, play it again. Lean into it. As Adam Neely says, repetition legitimizes. Some of the best improvisation comes from glorious mistakes.
Well said
Hello! Classically-trained pianist, composer, and songwriter here. Now that I've been through the rigmarole of music school in composition/piano performance, I have to say, something that stands out for me was when I was teaching a young student their final piano lesson (b/c they had decided to quit). During that final lesson I said "hey, let's just make stuff up and improvise today!" I started playing a basic accompaniment and we ended up spending an entire hour jamming! To my astonishment, their eyes widened as they started experimenting for the first time, taking chances, making "mistakes" and learning through their own exploration. I had never seen them enjoy music this way the entire time I taught them pieces they had little/no interest in. I realized then, it is play and creativity that lead us into music-making. Creating a safe environment where chances can be taken and rules abandoned. Sure, the discipline, the practice, the commitment - that's all very important and necessary as we pursue our craft - but it is the joyful act of gestural and emotional musical expression that we cannot forget regardless of whether we are teaching, creating, or performing. Thanks for this video :)
Totally. My musical education completely failed me because I was that kid. It was only many years later and a detour through the punk scene that showed me my way.
Best comment. A pity I can only give one thumbs-up.
Excellent comment! Difference between PLAYING music and executing notes!
I'd recommend watching Victor Wooten talk about how he views learning music. It's pretty eye opening when it's compared to the traditional approach that leads so many kids to walk away from it.
I was that kid. I *hated* being told, effectively, "STFU kid, stop asking what's what and play what's on the page."
I am 71 years old and classically trained. Thanks to being a working musician I fell into improvising. Now I love it and attempt to teach all my students to be well rounded and improvise also. I believe the secret to improvising is listening and responding to what one hears within and without.
I've long abandoned my classical training and have fallen into a world inspired by Jazz, R&B, Hip-Hop, p-Funk, and all that. The one thing I've always noticed about my friends that haven't improvised, classically trained or not, is that they imagine there will be a point in time where all of a sudden they can improvise perfectly. But thats the problem! there is no perfect improv. Its all just going with what you feel is right at the time. I love hearing the progress I've made in improv, but I always know it will get better. coming to terms with knowing it always gets better and you'll never be perfect is VERY freeing.
The description of being used to having a carefully constructed script and freezing up in situations where improvisation is called for is familiar to me both as a classical musician who is learning to play jazz, and as an autistic person with social anxiety.
This is very insightful -- thank you for sharing!!
Same -- my normal fear of human social interaction gets paralyzing in those types of situations. When musicians use the analogy that, "Well, you don't get paralyzed when you're talking casually to friends on the couch, right?" I'm like, uh .......
As an autist I find the opposite. To have to "perform" a set way is too demanding with expectations, just like having to "perform" as a person in social situations to appear NT (neurotypical). Whereas in improv you get to be yourself no matter what that is, and it is celebrated, even moreso for being more unique and less like others (have your own style of improv) ie not held to exacting expectations or comparisons of others, totally free to be yourself. That is why I play jazz and improv styles, and dislike the more rigid classical world and other styles such as cover bands, etc.
@@email3575Very interesting point of view!
To modify your analogy, I would compare a classical musician to an actor that has only done Shakespeare and an actor that has only done improv comedy. One has been carefully crafted and has to be delivered in a precise manner (classical/Shakespeare); in the other you have a lot more freedom, if something doesn't work or is not the best you move on and try something else. On a professional level it is hard to go from one to the other, it requires a lot of practice.
This is exactly what I wanted to say. It's the big difference between scripted performance and improvised performance all across the board.
With an script/choreograph/sheet music/etc, the foundation that grounds you is the predetermined arc of the piece; your artistry then comes from the nuance and variations that you can create within that rigid structure, whether with different ways of expressing emotion in acting; subtle nuances you add to your movement in dance; or tone, dynamics, and phrasing in music.
On the other hand, the foundation of a improv comedy bit/improvised dance session/jam session/etc. is a very loose "scenario," like a setting in a improv skit, the general agreed upon movement vocabulary of your dance style, the chords/scale/key you agree to play in; the artistry comes from how you're able to create your own story arc within that scenario that still makes sense in the context of the performance.
Going from scripted to improvised feels like your foundation was pulled from under your feet and you have nothing to go off of. And going from improvised to scripted feels like you're tied up and trapped with no freedom to move.
Amazing addition to her analogy!
Yeah. I think it is more about whole never trained how to do it, there is no thinking frame work...
Where to start what is the point, etc?
I think it's like someone who can only speak if its written down for them first
@@yazminalvarez432 good analogy
Thank you so much for posting this.
I identify as a classical musician. I love jazz. Always have. I love the energy of improvised music and am always so envious of those who can do this.
My problem is that every time I try, I have no idea where to begin. I have no idea how to get started. I spend much of my time in the practice room (isolation room) by myself and have very little opportunity- if any- to jam with other musicians. So, most of the time it just feels awkward. Then, it also sounds like garbage in comparison to the stuff I listen to. So that shuts me down. As one of your respondents said, I sound like a 3 year old talking.
Practice scales then practice 2 5 1 chords and do that up the scale
check out this prof: czcams.com/play/PLpyMjpj5yGK3pNSSev_5dBoU1yvjEVlYc.html
Well, starting small is good. And if you need to, just improvise by yourself first.
Over the years, I've created a vocabulary that I like. I like improvising with quartal harmonies a lot.
I would advise to not compare yourself to others when improvising, especially if they are highly skilled at it. It's an unfair exercise and only damages your self-confidence. Start with a beginner's mind and don't be too harsh on yourself. There are no "wrong notes" in jazz, so use "mistakes" as a way of opening a portal to new, fresh ideas.
You may have encountered an online essay about this matter of the discomfort of making bad art. Its thesis is that it's good to go through a phase where you know that your work is bad. That at least means you're beginning to distinguish good from bad. It's in fact very encouraging. However it takes significant time and practice to build up the performance skills to match your critical abilities.
Classical training exaggerates the critical aspect of listening and downplays the delightful aspect. You have to work from the opposite orientation.
An instrument with beautiful tone can be a gateway to this. Just strike a note and hear it sustain and fade away. Let yourself notice how delicious it is, how grateful you can feel for such a simple experience. Attune to yourself. Wait for yourself. Have no goal.
The “Call and Response” jazz method/tradition seems to be a good way of starting to improvise music, and is quite similar to your conversation analogy as you are essentially having a conversation, just at a smaller scale.
Amazing video!
Back in the music school it would never in a million years cross my mind to improvise anything or explore a piece I practiced by playing it differerently just for my own pleasure.
Oddly enough, at home I would not only improvise but also compose my own music. The crucial thing here was - those two concerned two different instruments, so with each one I was in a completely different framework of perceiving it.
Thank you for sharing this! :)
Cool! What two instruments do you play?
@@NahreSol Hey Nahre, I really hope you can finally respond to my other message about how you compose when you can. Thanks very much.
I'm not a classical musician (blues, jazz, pop) and I definitely see this all the time. Something about the teaching style thats more focused on technique and "the proper way" might have something to do with it. I have never seen those walls around me when playing so I just listen and let it take me. No anxiety or awkwardness because I've messed up so bad in front of a live audience and you get used to it. Sometimes when I don't feel it I just slam the keys trying to forget all the theory and letting the emotion take center stage. In the end it's just a fleeting moment and it's art, it's not supposed to be perfect and I find joy in the small mistakes.
Interestingly with the guitar I have way less confidence and improv flows way worse.
Definitely... thanks for sharing!
Bro key slamming is so fun and such a good way to get ideas. It's a real asset, being a good key slammer.
Funny thing is, sometimes if i make small mistakes i get new ideas how to fix it.
I think a big reason people don't think that improvisation used to be a big part of classical music is the lack of recordings from back in the day, with jazz you can tell that they play the music different from recording to recording, but since we don't have any recordings of the original musicians playing Mozart or whatever, we tend to assume that they only played exactly what's written
I call it "playing by ear", which I have done for years- listening to the conversations and voices of the other participants is a treat in itself and to dive into the current is rewarding. It does take time to hone this and it requires a deeper ear to achieve. Improvisation is needed and it allows the artist to break out of the box of sometimes structured music.
Im starting to learn improvisation. I agree with the people, its very difficult as a classical pianist
Yes...agreed, thank you for sharing!
It’s so comforting to hear I’m not the only one terrified of improvisation! I’m a classical trained pianist but would LOVE to be able to comfortably improvise one day.
In college, I took a jazz improv class and it felt like one of the scariest things ever. I remember one of the first days of class, my professor asked me to improvise while he played the simplest chord progression, and I absolutely froze. He stopped comping and was like, “okay, why aren’t you playing anything?” and I was like, “I don’t… know which notes to play.” I was mortified and didn’t believe him when he said I could play any note and it’d be fine. What other people are saying about the fear of it sounding bad and also feeling like I don’t have a solid grasp of music theory resonates so much. Thanks for making this video! 🥔
Ditto! I took classical piano lessons from the age of 9 and decided to try a Jazz improv class in college. It was a small class of ab out 13 students and the class was only once a week or something and we had to take turns impoving over basic chord progressions that we were told ahead of time what they’d be and i just would freeze up. I was given the option to play with just one hand and that helped, but I couldn’t bear listening to the other players do so well and then go up there and sound like a 3 year old. I ended up skipping class on days where I thought I would have to go up. It was so painful. I dream of being able to do it, but don’t know what resources to use and how to keep the motivation up when it feels like you’re starting all over again.
Oh my god, yes! Thank you SO much for making this video. I. always felt incredibly shy and self-conscious whenever I was in a "jam session". I always thought it was because I am not a good enough musician, but it's such a relief to hear that even accomplished classical musicians like yourself struggle with this AND that it's possible to get better!
Interesting topic and a great video, as always! I actually imagine that most improvisers have the exact same fears as the people answering your Instagram story (and 🥔)
My first teacher was a jazz player, so I started studying improv from the very first day. I was also composing very early, so around age 18 I’ve been admitted to a composition class in an ancient musical academy. After a while I realized the amazing difference in approach between my fellow students (all classically trained) and me, I was of course very late in a variety of aspects and had a hard time catching up but they were all baffled by the fact that I could improvise and also that I could play a piece the teacher gave us to study without constantly reading the score. I had a sense of structure and language they were lacking, and basically my memory worked in a different way. I’m not saying better or worse. It was very interesting and to this day I’m convinced that it’s exactly like a language, which inform your way of thinking while you learn it as a child, and makes it harder when you are older to learn a new one especially if it has different roots. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, it’s just a matter of time and practice!
OMG I am so jealous! It is so difficult for me to learn how to improvise (I am classically trained)
I was classically trained, but once I finished my BA I immersed myself in jazz (I was in a jazz coma for several years). I thought myself harmony and phrasing by studying transcriptions and by listening intensely and practicing diligently to build up my vocabulary. Your comparison to a conversation is accurate. I would add that when two persons are having a conversation, they rarely (if ever) make up everything on the spot. They have their favorite expressions that come up naturally, without breaking the flow and without intentionally trying to fit in certain words or phrases. Jazz improvisation is much like that. Every jazz musician has their vocabulary and years and years of practice makes it seem natural.
I read a similar explanation in the past, I appreciate being reminded.
I play jazz piano here, or at least try to. It forces one to learn his scales and theory.
Great video.
I struggled for years to become an improviser. Now, it's hard for people to believe I spent so much time as a classical musician.
Fear is the enemy.
Loved what you had to say.
4:47 I was NOT expecting this AT ALL.
I remember watching a few episodes of “Extra” in French class in high school (mostly in Freshman year), and I did not think I would see it again HERE of all places.
Do you have John Mortensen's book, 'The Pianist's Guide to Historic Improvisation'? It's a very practical guide aimed at conservatoire pianists, to take you from not knowing how to do it, to knowing exactly how to do it. He's Cedarvillemusic on here.
Dr. Mortensen is the man!
I love this book and I don’t even play piano. I’d love to know Nahre’s thoughts on it.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook I'm a very beginner pianist, and even I can make something that sounds like music - and I've found his approach incredibly useful in other ways. Baroque music makes so much more sense thinking of it as a bass-upwards counterpoint rather than a complicated chord progression. I also think it would be a great insight into western classical for anyone coming from a Carnatic tradition.
I've actually met the man myself, heard him play a recital, and I've also seen his work on CZcams. I appreciate mainly that he's willing to break any stigmas against improvising and also that he gives beginners concrete tools that they can use. Admittedly, I don't think much of him as a classical performer aside from the fact that he's one of the (disgustingly) few people who will actually go on stage and do it, for which he deserves a lot of respect. I'd rather listen to him play jazz - and he is capable. But the point is that I can give my support for his pedagogy. If you want to get into improvisation and are completely lost, yes check him out. I don't know that he's a master pedagogue, but the situation of improvisation in classical music is so bad right now that I don't need to think twice. Look at his work. It won't harm you; it will help.
Prof Mortensen if you see this, here's wishing I'll get to see you again and have a discussion with you about improvising in front of a piano or two, maybe even in your studio in Cedarville. Until then, keep up the good work!
I've been interested in the book for a while - please can you tell me what styles it teaches you to improvise in - is it just baroque/classical or also romantic and later? The word "historic" put me off....
Was trained clasically as a kid, and whilst enjoying the music, I knew deep inside that something was not right about the way I was experiencing music. Not until I made a 180° degree turn and turned to jazz in such a way that I even hated playing classical. Finally I could find my own voice, and now I can say I can start to really speak with my instrument. Over the years I’ve been drawn to the ‘classical’ masterworks again, now realising that composers like Chopin wrote in a very improvisatory way, much like a lot of jazz musicians today do. Understanding more about theory, shines a new light on this music, so much so that I can even use elements of so called classical in my so called ‘jazz’ performance. Just to say that these labels are (at least from an artist stand point) pointless, music is one language. Improvisation, composition, performance are also so interwoven… That said, I really think you are doing amazing work breaking the barriers @Nahre Sol!
oh wow
I am self-taught at piano...I liked to imrpovise my "classical-sounding" music on the piano, and it made me even more enthusiastic to learn classical pieces. So I guess I am the opposite??
Remember jazz is just playing the wrong notes
@@BzBlade hmm, yes, sik memes 'n stuff, m8
@@BzBlade Well not quite - don't you have to play the wrong notes at least twice to make it jazz?😉
🥔 Seeing such a brilliant classical pianist such as yourself sharing the same struggle is really inspiring, Nahre! This is an interesting problem which I think is also rooted in performance anxiety and fear of not being 'good enough'. Overcoming that and learning to make mistakes, allowing one'elf to become again a child discovering music again for the first can also be a wonderful thing while learning to improvise!
Me and my bros and sis all went to a classical 🥔music school, all got discouraged at some point. My elder bro switched to rock music on its own, my other elder bro was lucky that a jazz teacher just got in that school when he was there and so he switched to that. Sis and I just dropped eventually, because like many other music school, the only thing they train you for is being an orchestral musician, they don't really consider the other possibilities, whether it is genre of music or kinds of career / hobbies people would want. It's a bit sad.
I personally started playing again over the years, but it's a far cry from what I could do 10 years ago, but I try to just find enjoyment in playing whatever I like at my humble level and improv a bit over it, instead of trying to perfect masterpieces.
Well, as an organist, I'm improvising all the time. It's such a neat skill, if you are able to improvise a prelude to a hymn and so on, on the spot. Besides that I'm a HUGE Jazz enthusiast. Jazz is just... great. I love listening to Jazz, I love playing Jazz. Of course I'm improvising in this environment too.
The thing with improvisation in my life as an musician is: I tought it to myself since the beginning of my piano lessons. I was... kind of lazy, I didn't want to practise this much, but I wanted to play. So I played. I tought myself basic musictheory, without even knowing this term. I thought: "Nice, these three tones with one in between sound nice!" It was a chord. Then major and minor chords and so on. I even found the concept with dominant chords.
So, let your students play! Take the sheet music away and allow improvisation! It is so much fun. And if you learn lt from the first day, it isn't hard anymore at some point.
Nowadays I'm starting to learn to improvise in different styles, like baroque, classical, romantic, modern, ...
Some day I want to be able to improvise a fugue. This seems to me like the holy grail of improvisation. Perfect counterpoint, voiceleading and so on.
On of my heros is Jacques Loussier. He's the best. His interpretations of the Bach-Pieces is just fantastic.
To all Bach and Jazz-Fans: Listen to him!
Guys , take this man‘s advice. You won‘t regret Loussier‘s take of the Goldberg variations
Improvising a fugue does seem like the holy grail of improv!
A really excellent jazz musician improvising is super impressive, but improvising an interesting fugue sounds pretty exceptional!
Are you a classical pipeorganist or jazz organist / hammond? Because thats actually 2 different worlds in my opinion
Oh man, I am so envious of the organ player's skills. As a keyboard and synth player, I treat the old organ masters in high regard. I consider the organ to be the grandfather of synthesizers. I would love to have a fraction of the ability of a Dupré or Widor or Messiaen or even the Jazz greats like Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, or John DeFrancesco.
@@bartbroekhuizen5617 He did mention hymns, so he’s probably a church/classical organist
🥔!!
Nahre, your 1st improv video w/ Adam and LA is by far my fav and most rewatched of your library. The angle of the virtuoso classical player going back to a ‘beginner’ posture and exploring the experience of learning to improvise is by far the most interesting part of your channel. REALLY wanna see more of this (even if-or especially while-it’s not super refined or master level)
Thank you!!!!
I´m so glad you posted this video! It makes sense. I am a classically trained flutist. Eventually I discovered Cuban charanga music and have been traveling to Havana to study it. Charanga is a popular style dance music that has a classical foundation and it requires improvisation. That was the door that opened for me and I never looked back! I am still on that path and this is the first time I have heard someone discuss the issues that keep classical musicians from improvising.
When I was in my 20s, I play classical piano for perfection. Now that I am in my 40s I practice various instruments while watching my kids ukulele, guitar, flute. Most of this is done by ear. Getting away from the sheet music and experimenting with various instruments has expanded my musical ability and confidence to improvise
HI Nahre,I am classically trained cellist and I did find getting into imporv difficult. I think transcribing solos are a good place to start also vocalizing to get the feel and inflictions also help in my opinon. Classical music is taught liked 2nd hand religion you can read the words but dont know what they mean or you are doing the rituals without incarnating it. It boggles my mind that its not a part of the earliest music lessons. All the masters of the master works were improviser.
Same here, classical cellist who got into improv and composing. At first it was really difficult. I find playing and listening to all different styles of music while also learning music theory at the same time really helped me. Also, learning a new instrument can be a GREAT way to get out of your comfort zone and embrace new ideas... When I play on my piano I come up with completely different ideas. As I am not a properly trained pianist, I have less preconceived notions of what I can do on the instrument.
Exactly, thank you Razef! I hear people in church recite holy scripture,
yet few, if any of them can put those ideas into their own words and
relate it to the world we live in now. Crazy, right?! They either don't
understand what they're reading, or they don't believe it or feel it... strange.
Singing anything that comes into your head is a great way to start improvising! There's usually a lot more good musical ideas floating around in people's heads then they think, and once you sing them all that's left is to figure out how to play it on an instrument!
No! That is relevant only for a melody. but melodies are supported by a harmonic structure,so you cannot practically” just sing any old notes in your head.See my separate post.
Thank you for your dedication to this topic, Nahre! As a classicaly trained pianist, I was always fascinated by how jazz musicians were able to freely improvise and create music, but both times I tried to learn some jazz I lost my motivation after about two months because I realized that it is the style of classical music that I really love.
Because of this, improvisation was absent from my musical practice for more than a decade, but in the last 3 years I've been studying historical/classical improvisation and it has been totally liberating. Though I have a long way to go to become a fluent improviser, I am now starting to feel more confortable to improvise 2 or 3 part counterpoint (sometimes with imitation) or simple pieces like small waltzes and adagios.
I know the point of the video was discussing how classical musicians feel with improvisation, and not learning strategies, but for those who are interested in studying and learning this kind of improvisation, I can't recommend enough the solfeggio and partimento pedagogy. It's the way musicians were trained in italian conservatories of the 17th and 18th century and it used to make them incredibly fluent composers and improvisers. Generally, it works by teaching the students several melodic, contrapunctual and harmonic patterns and them making they create lots and lots of variations until the patterns and variatons become internalized. In this sense, it looks very similar to practicing lots of ways to play a ii-V-I in jazz, but the patterns are from the historical styles. My problem with improvisation before was that I simply didn't know what to do or how to think to play in this style and learning and practicing these patterns really gave me something to work with.
Right now there's a growing community of muscians exploring this approach and you can find a lot of useful content online, if you're interested. I recommend checking out CZcams channels like Michael Koch's En blan et noir (www.youtube.com/@enblancetnoir7516), the Nokhil Hogan Show (www.youtube.com/@NikhilHoganShow) and Robert Gjerdingen's book and channel Child Composers in the Old Conservatories (www.youtube.com/@ChildComposers). You can also find books on the subject like Gjerdingen's Music in The Galant Style and Child Composers (these are more academic) and John Mortensen's The Pianist's Guide to Historical Improvisation and Improvising Fugue (practical methods).
Oh my, I thought it was only me that had this issue. This shed light to so many things I couldn't put into words. Thank you!
I began violin in school at age 10 in 1970 and was channeled into classical music. At age 13 I asked my teacher in school "when do we learn how to improvise?" and was told I would have to play for 30 or 40 years to be able to do that! I believed that. So it was discouraged in school -- that's part of the answer. At age 17, I rebelled, quit violin, switched to banjo, and haven't looked back since.
Ironically, the only time I ever felt like I couldn’t improv, or rather, felt self conscious of it, was when I was studying Jazz and “the right way” to improv. But that’s a conversation for another video…
I would like to hear more!
There is really no right way to improvise. A lot of people do not really understand what improvisation is. Many think the ability to create jazz lines is what improvisation is mainly about. But there's a difference improvising a solo in a jazz solo and knowing how to improvise.
🥔 thank you very much for this video (and all your videos). I myself started improvising a few years ago, I was scared, but now I feel liberated, I can express myself so much more. I'm no expert, we continuously learn more and more and try new things. It's encouraging to see none of us is alone in this issue. Take care
Almost two years into composing classical music, i began to experiment with improv again and found that I was 100x better than months earlier. For me, after enough composing and learning to listen to my inner ear when I compose, I started to make up chord progressions as I go and improvise beautiful melodies. Improvising is a great joy once you start getting the sound you want.
I'm self-taught.
Embrace your mistakes. Repeat them in an 'I meant to do that' manner.
Quit holding your breath! You can't relax and try something new if you are passing out.
Combine short phrases from your favourite works. Plagiarism can be a nod to something that you admire.
Write it down. Improvising can have a map. Be specific when you start this approach and ween yourself back to general hints.
Look at scores (of anything) and realize that the chords and notes came from somewhere; they are evidence of improvisation.
Try improvising a chord progression instead of a melody or solo. It can be your foundation.
Most importantly, take time to goof off. Be silly and embrace the word play. If you can make it fun, you'll enjoy it.
I’m a dedicated (I’ve arranged my life to allow at least two hours of practicing any night that I’m not rehearsing with chamber groups, for the last 30 years) amateur cellist, and I went through a period where I really tried to learn jazz improvisation. I took lessons with bassists, pianists, and the extraordinary cellist Matt Turner, and I have notebooks filled with my own transcriptions of jazz solos by sax players, violinists, pianists, trombone players, and bassists. I never got to a point where I was happy with my improvising, and eventually I found that in the limited time I had to play I kind of had to pick one; if I concentrated equally on both I’d be sub-par with both notated music *and* improv. Since there’s way more opportunities to play classical than jazz cello, these days improvising is mostly relegated to warming up.
But - here’s the thing: not only did all that concentration on improv lead to a far deeper appreciation of the miraculous skills involved in spontaneous group composition, but it also taught me to be a better classical musician. I had to learn to play my instrument like it was an unconscious reflex, and improv’s focus on listening to what’s going on around you and then responding to that is absolutely essential to playing musically whether or not you’re improvising; I used to play the cello part, but now I play the entire piece along with everyone else.
Sometimes I sum it up by saying the best classical cello teacher I’ve ever had taught me how to listen to my cello in a way I’d never done before, and my jazz cello teacher taught me to listen to everything else the same way.
Also: 🥔.
Another really good video! I am one of those classically trained pianists who has listened, followed, love jazz my WHOLE life (I am 61 now). I could relate to this. Have a friend who composes (also he is how I found out about you!) and improvises a ton~and has sent me chord progressions and transcriptions with just the changes indicated. I am getting to the point where it's fun! I always felt like a jazz person in my heart: my Dad was a composer of classical music, but came up in dance bands and jazz.
great topic for discussion, thanks for bringing this up
I'm classically trained, but not on a high level. So when I experiment I'm not particularly afraid of sounding worse, since I already don't sound so great when playing pieces. I love improvising.
hahahaha, same here
I was trained classically as well and this resonates with my own experience quite a bit. It is scary and you don't really know how to start with improvising. I wish it was emphasized more when I was younger.
Very good ! All very interesting. I liked the comments from others you shared at the end.
Classical music, rooted in rigor/memorization, evolved to jazz/pop where creation and spontaneity prevail. Our wider education system went from memorizing things and doing drills, to being creative. Companies were named 'Procter and Gamble', now they're 'Yahoo' / 'Google' or 'Uber'. We went from a world where 'important people' would were suits and work a fixed schedule, to one where they would go to work in flip flops and work from home.
I think that the real enlightenment consists in being able to reconcile the two. To understand that rigor, discipline and hard work have a lot of value, but that they're nothing without the spark of creation. And that a creative mind will be struggling if it lacks rigor and discipline.
The key element is that, ultimately, you need to be able to hear ideas in order to play them convincingly. And to get closer and closer to that goal, you need exposition. A lot of it. Like soaking your inner ear with that/those genres you want to improvise in. Then (or rather along with that) you need to try to emulate what you like, starting with simple things, at tempos you're comfortable with. Meaning spending some time training your ear and transcribing simple ideas. Eventually, and with the help of theory and advice from experienced improvisers, you will acquire ideas culturally and intellectually.
Understanding efficient methods of training yourself is also very important. For instance using software to accompany you, knowing how to set short progressions of one or two chords, picking ideas or scales to improvise with over those chords. All that in a reasonably organized way. One small goal at a time.
But you always have to be humble (as Kenny Werner says: "relax, there is always gonna be someone who plays better than you") and just enjoy having fun with those exercises, like a kid would.
Now the adult part of you is there to oversee progress, understand why some things work better than others, being critical in a constructive way, etc..
In many ways it's really like learning a foreign language.
That being said, it's a long and arduous process for everyone, so don't be too hard on yourself :)
Not enough potatos here!!! 🥔🥔🥔
I‘m playing - or rather learning to play - classical music on the piano. Every now and then I do try to improvise something, but not being very skilled at the piano yet, it is not coming easily. I do more and more feel the need to incorporate improvisation (and composition) though, just to feel more complete as a musician. I've been playing the guitar for many years, where improv is the most natural thing in the world...
Did I mention the lack of 🥔🥔🥔 yet? 😏
Thanks for Share! Just this week i had new music student who ex classical player had struggle with this improvisation stuff.. your content is just in time.. alrdy watch all till the end 🥔
🥔 thanks for putting these videos out, this question in particular intrigued me. cheers
When I began learning guitar, my teacher (who was an old school blues player) always encouraged me to improvise and I was always so afraid of playing something awful. Even when I knew I could run up and down a scale mindlessly, it would sound okay. It’s taken me years to even feel okay trying and now it’s something I do regularly, even if it’s still nowhere near as proficient as I’d like it to be. Ironically, I started on kit drums at a very young age and whenever I play drums, I don’t even think about what I’m playing. I just play what feels right in the moment.
Classical musician here. This is 100% accurate. When I started playing jazz music it took years before I was comfortable with improvising even a few bars.
And consider Bach's Ricercare a 3 from the Musical Offering. A bizarre theme given to Bach, which he had never heard before, and improvising an incredible 3 voice fugue on the spot in front of no less than the King of Prussia.
I guess though that (as with some forms of jazz) baroque music was somewhat formulaic, which helps. A fugue has structural rules, and while the resulting music is often very complex, the rules are rather simple. Also there are conventions in jazz (and in much baroque music) which are a bit like the cliches which make (say) slam poetry or some popular music lyrics easier to write.
Whereas since the start of the romantic era, there has been a declining level of formulaic content in classical music, and maybe that's partly why Baroque music seems as if it might have been the high point of improvisation for classical musicians.
🥔
love the channel! your videos are always so good!
In my experience, playing music only by ear, and not using any sheet music, increased my imrovisation skills : at the end, improvisation is mainly about listening. As always, it was intersting to hear your perspective !
I was exclusively classically trained for as long as I can remember and I experienced the exact same thing moving into Irish traditional music, and now again since approaching jazz. What helped me break through the barrier was repeating tunes over and over, changing at least one note, bowing, emphasis, or phrasing every time. In addition to learning by ear, this helped me internalize what makes the core melody - the elements without which it ceases to be that melody - and find freedom to morph it into something new. Oftentimes, simply removing notes is far more impactful than adding a flashy run. Excellent video Nahre, you never cease to be an inspiration for me!
I really appreciate your attitude and curiosity in diving into new life experiences
Dear Nahre, I've watched many videos from your channel and I think this is the first time I ever make a comment. First, I'd like to say I think your videos improved a lot, specially in the edition and the clarity of the section divisions. Second, I want to thank you for approaching this theme, it's good to know that even a musician with your technical skills found some trouble to begin the improvising art.
I wonder how much if the shift away from improvisation in classical can be attributed to it identifying more and more as a nostalgic exercise. When the term “classical” is mentioned, I think most people’s initial thought is of historical pieces. So to improvise is maybe seen as obscuring the composer’s work.
Yes interesting point, never thought of it quite this way!
@@NahreSol Me neither, until I watched this video. :)
You can see the same thing happen in other genres that become nostalgic exercises. Think about the rock bands that retire to the oldies circuit and more or less play karaoke versions of their old songs.
@@crimfan Honestly, when I was a very new guitarist in middle school who mainly listened to rock, I shyed away from blues music because I thought it was boring. For over a decade I'd occasionally look up blues material, even buying instructions to get into it, but it never clicked with me.
All the "beginner" material just taught me to play licks and parts from other famous blues guitarists and I didn't see the appeal of it.
But one night I was noodling along to a favorite song, and decided to use some pentatonics over it. I started to enjoy randomly playing pentatonic notes. Like, wow, this sounds nice and it's fun.
It took me over 10 years to even realize blues music is heavily focused on improvisations. All because the entry level books I bought were so centralized on learning the exact same licks / solos of other blues players.
I think we might have idolized SRV, Clapton, and BB King so much that blues music has practically become modern classical music, defeating the purpose of an improvisational genre!
That or I'm an oblivious idiot who's oversaturated with all the different guitar styles and music genres available in this age of connectivity!
@@xen05z I browsed through a bunch of those beginner blues books but never learnt a single lick from them. Learning blues from a book seemed like an anti intuitive exercise. Though tbh my favourite type of blues is Delta and they really weren't known for extensive solos like BB and co.
I am classically trained (intermediate) pianist and at one point in my life I have stopped to play composed work and dedicated my music edudcation to years of pure improvisation. The start was actually quite simple. Just start to press notes randomly, do not think about "ugly, nice, major, legato"... Erase it all and just press the keys, do not judge yourself, only listen to resonation and tension and release. Try to have fun, switch hands, think about your arms as a pair of extensions and fingers as random chaotic rain drops. Do this a lot. Don't judge. And slowly, I was able to marry this freedom of concept with music theory just by ear... Art is absence of fear and experimentation is scientific method to find the truth.
you rock, lad
Two of my mentors said something similar to me years apart. The first "there's no such thing as a wrong note". The second: "There's no such thing as a wrong note, just the opportunity to resolve what you just played to something that sounds good".
I'm just seeing this now but you are an absolute joy to watch and listen to thank you for this!
Did jazz band on an electric violin...(1:13) so relatable 🥲 😆
Thank you for the video! It's so good as always! :) I am a music teacher, with 7 years of classical piano and many years of playing bands and improvising. I am a student today very much so as I am also a teacher for beginners. I don't have conservatory training. But one thing I believe by reading music education theorists and what my intuition and experience confirms is that all classical pieces were created by people who dived deep into being playful with music. Of course studying their compositions is so important, and a lifetime isn't enough to master performing all their pieces with the best possible rendition and interpretation (aesthetics is somewhat subjective). And actually learning to perform classical pieces with the right articulation, tempo and emotion is also kind of a process of improvisation, trial and error, just like learning to act out a screenplay to a word by word script. We can only do so much. But now that we draw a comparison between language and music I also have to add something. Yes, when you start improvising you feel embarrassed like someone learning a new language because you can only express so much. But it all builds up with dedication, practice and similarily listening and trying to embody or be inspired by the original style of the best players of history. What maybe haven't been mentioned and might sound uneducated and judgemental is that classical players who havent tried to learn to improvise and are a bit cocky about it, haven't yet started using music as a language and a tool of their own. They can read, write (compose), listen with attention. But all in all, saying it as someone who is a really a big advocate that music is primarily about creativity, composition and improvisation (and a fan of also all the classical styles): They haven't really got started studying the essence of music: to speak.
i'm only a minute in and the editing is already 👌👌👌
Thank you so much!!
In my experience improv isn’t something tHaT hard, you just have to find a good starter point/ inspiration to begin. I am VERY classically trained as a musician and all I do is find something that brings me strong emotions and begin to express them through music. I personally love the music of Chopin and I think my writing has been partially influenced by his music, so when I improvise it comes quite naturally (since all I want to play in my free time is mostly Chopin and Liszt :D)
This insight/experience of yours is great to add to the conversation!! Thanks for sharing :)
@Parve Pareve Nice.
Wonderful conversation. Thanks.
I feel very lucky to have background/training in both classical and jazz disciplines. While I'm still never 100% comfortable improvising in front of an audience (I feel my improv skills fall a bit shy of producing truly enjoyable solos), I do love improvising in an undirected manner during my practice. Besides just being fun, I find it helps me refocus and stay engaged when I hit a wall with a classical piece. I highly recommend all musicians give it a shot. Start without any expectations and build from there! :)
seconding this
I'm a jazz pianist, but very interested in classical improvisation, as I love a lot of classical music, and I think it's wonderful when you hear someone that can improvise in the style of whatever composer you really love. It almost seems like the ultimate thing to be able to do, to take a master like Bach for instance and be able to improvise with the wonderful elements of his language. From their earliest years, children are encouraged to draw, paint and write in the freest of ways, yet when it comes to music, the attitude tends so often to be about first having a certain amount of "technique", and then leaning more towards playing set melodies or songs. This is wrong as far as I'm concerned, and part of an un-necessarily strict and outdated attitude towards music, borne of an excessive focus on discipline and the veneration of composers. This isn't to say that those things are inherently wrong, but they're too blinkered and dismissive of a person's natural creativity. I've taught many people (including classical musicians) to improvise, and everyone is capable of it, it's just a matter of actually doing it and engaging in some training. I've had some discussions with the great classical improvisor Robert Levin about this, including why the practice all but disappeared from classical training (he said part of the reason was the diverse amount of classical languages that developed in the 19th century making it difficult to know them all...), and interviewed him at length recently about this stuff (it's on here under "Improvisation with Robert Levin") if anyone's interested.
Thanks for this opportunity to express my thoughts about improvisation. I improvise every day on the organ as well as play the repertoire. Both I think are indispensable and feed off each other. Since I started repertoire much earlier than improvising, at first I had to force myself to do it. I understand it was difficult to sound well simply because I haven't spent the same amount of hours improvising as playing repertoire. As time passes I can continue to practice, my improvisations are getting better and closer to written down music. Basically it's just a matter of speeding up the thinking. What I can create in my mind has to be fast enough for me to play in real time with my fingers and feet. Good video! Thanks for sharing!
I played a lot of classical stuff in my piano lessons until I was in my early 20s. I did scales, arpeggios, and finger exercises, and developed a fairly nice technique. Once I realized that all the classical music I played could be seen as one big bank of ideas for improv, I never looked back. Since then, no stage fright, no fear of messing up, just pure joy of expression. I practice improv every day, along with scales etc, but haven’t tried a classical piece for ages, even though I listen to a lot of solo piano music by Scriabin, Debussy, Bartok, Bach, and others.
going with the language metaphor: classical musicians are literate but (mostly) not fluent, and popular musicians are fluent but (mostly) not literate. (the "language" in this metaphor is western music, broadly)
Good way to put it!
Arigatou Gozaimas
I play gospel. We “play by ear” (a form of improvisation). I strive to incorporate jazz/blues improvisation ideas in my Gospel music playing. I think music theory has been a good tool to conceptualize a sound/emotive and apply it in a new context. I studied classical guitar since then in my major at University; therefore I understand how starkly different the classical musician approaches music! it may help the classical musician to take a look at the correlation between musical composition and musical improvisation.
loved your example with a shakesperian play and a conversation
Thank you for the wonderful videos you have been producing, I am a jazz guitarist and I have had more than several occasions playing with accomplished classical musicians and initially I wondered why most of them could not improvise readily. Many posses perfect pitch and could play back to me whatever I played instantaneously, studied harmonies and played Bach, Mozart, Chopin etc which compositions have similar chord changes as jazz (well of course they were the first to come up with those chord changes) . I was asked by a few to teach them how to improvise through basic chord changes but just as you mentioned on your video, when they try to improvise they could not come up with fantastic melodies that they are used to playing and often they froze if they made mistakes because they are trained from early ages that you can not make mistakes, you have to play wha's written. I just posted a quote of Art Blakey on my Facebook and he said 'Jazz is about taking risks and embracing mistakes." If you really try to improvise on the spot you can not avoid making mistakes. Pretty much everyday I listen to classical music and I am always in awe. I was listening to Horowitz's Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 yesterday and to me that is beyond human! This subject is intriguing and I appreciate that you explained the perspectives of established classical player"s stand point. Also I watched Robert Levin's videos quite a bit. Sorry for the long comment. Keep up with good work, Nahre!
This is such a thoughtful discussion of the topic. I wonder if the drop of in improvisation in the "classical" world might correspond to the rise of recorded music and radio and thus a change of expectation of listeners and performers. With recordings, they got to hear examples of the great performers repeatedly, thus cementing the idea of a "right way" rather than occasionally seeing a live performance that would be a bit different each time.
I am a classical musician, mainly a contemporary music composer. During many years I also played the piano at solo and chamber music concerts, and even managed to play a piano concerto, but I gradually developed more and more stage fright. Then I started to do in public what I had always done at home: to impovise (improvisation has always been my source of inspiration). It was the solution! I feel completely calm and confident, even when improvising in group.
Oooooh. I love that Fender Rhodes electric piano. Try improvising over 12 bar blues, I, IV, V, mixing the major and minor pentatonic scales. That’s how most of us learned to do it on guitar.
Thank you so much, Nahre. Your advices across many aspects of music artistry and performance... invaluable!!! I'm not classically trained or a "trained" musician at all, but I find that improvisation (of course) begins in the mind. For as long as I can remember, yes for sure, I can listen and enjoy music PASSIVELY if I want, but the most fun I've found, and which allows me to improvise with no effort at all after having exercised this form of fun for so long, is what I call ACTIVE listening. That is where you purposefully engage your creativity while listening to actively construct in your imagination, in real-time, counter melodies, alternative chord progressions, and harmonies to a piece of music, never the same but always interesting and beautiful each time through. Again, after having done so for so long, improvisation is just the natural way my mind works. At first, active listening takes considerable focus and energy, but the more you engage with music in that way, the more effortless, natural and enjoyable it becomes. Forget about music theory. Just imagine what fits well emotionally, sonically, interestingly, enjoyably, and perhaps for spice, surprisingly. Then -- when in a live performance, improvising a new rendition, or composing -- so many sonic opportunities, pathways, and cohesive musical stories just seem to magically present themselves.
This is an interesting topic that has always fascinated me. As someone who started out learning classical piano and then classical bass in high school and played in the youth orchestra.At the same time started playing in local rock bands and got interested in jazz and studied jazz in college. I find both disciplines takes a lot of time to get good at and I believe each discipline makes the other one stronger. Starting out learning to read I believe made my ear a little lazy as it took me a while to learn things by ear while reading them was instantaneous. But as a string player you have to hear the note before you play it to be in tune so I found my reading became a little more expressive as I began to hear the music in my head before playing it rather than just reading it off the page. After years in playing all kinds of improvised music like Jazz , R&B , singer songwriters…… my interest for classical music has been increasing in my later years but I’ve brought my jazz sensibilities to classical music were just learning the piece to play is not as satisfying as analyzing it and try to understand the elements of the piece that drew me to the piece. . Then I enjoy improvising on it more than just playing as written. I find many Chopin pieces are excellent to improvise on . I have played in some chamber jazz groups but found it more difficult to find musicians that are interested in improvising on classical works and probably due to you use different harmonic / melodic vocabulary so again difficult to improvise without some time studying and practice. I have had some classical students come to me for lessons to learn jazz and the most difficult part for them was that in a sense they have to start at a basic level with very simple exercises that seam beneath them. It’s the same thing the other way around when a very strong ear player who can play anything in their head learns to read music it’s very frustrating having to go through that process of struggling to read simple things that they can pick up by ear effortlessly. Jaco talked about this when he started learning to read after he could already play at a high level.
I think both sides take years to get good at and difficult to judge the other side if you have not spent the time to learn both disciplines.
I remember feeling this way when I was younger from trying to stay spot on in the perimeters and completely in sync with conductors, and that was just with vocals. I worked to do precisely what ensemble concert conductors would want. ...and at some point I got into a vocal jazz ensemble for all of my control and attention to detail, and found I couldn't loosely scat the way I used to as a young kid and naturally just confidently blend in, because my brain was suddenly trying to put it all into print text in my mind and be more precise like I had learned to carefully be. It began to feel like a math problem that took more time to sort out in the live process of tempo than there was. I would feel stuck, in the way that some of my parkinsonian cohorts do now, in the thresholds of doors through some neurological weirdness that didn't happen before.
Ironically I am able to keep going through the doors now physically myself by listening to songs in my mind with lots of syncopated rhythms. I have to do something to distract my mind from really thinking too much and going down the mathematical logger rhythm print out in a spiral notebook of my head. Instead I have to think of just being outside and seeing nature and feeling nature. I have to break out of the linear part of my brain. Somehow just moving my whole body with the rhythm and not hyper focusing on the notes that much, lets me naturally blend with the notes where things are going far more effortlessly! It also helps to be a little familiar with the people your playing with as individuals. The over all feel, of how they usually play plus how they are doing that day, conversationally before you all start even, or as you walk up, hearing them in progress. Just think of catching up with people you meet conversationally but with how you feel about things with sounds expressing the emotion without too much thought. Tell it like it feels.
Another thing I remember helped, is to allow yourself to practice jazz soloing with things you randomly hear on the radio or walking through someplace with piped in music, that you might not usually listen to. Allow yourself to experiment and flub up a lot while you just get used to playing around with improvisation. Maybe even use the "yes, and..." trick but with jazz music expressiveness of feel rather than exact words. You could make up words as you go along too just for fun, getting the hang of it.
It's a way to say how you really feel without words, or context that could be twisted into something else, that anyone could pretentiously take umbrage with.
This is a little all over the place, because I sort of woke up in the deepest part of sleep phase and started puttering around. I kind of ran on. 💕 Hadn't thought about this in awhile, or recently practiced improvisation.
Excellent video ... as usual !
Really loved your thoughts surrounding this, especially as I look at your improvising as so incredibly innovative and filled with promise. That being said, your inner dialogue was so relatable and I can understand that feeling of it not feeling like your primary / 1st language.
Yes, so much inner courage to start off again as a 'beginner improviser'. Inspiring video. Thank you!
Classically trained and didn't improvise in lessons, but did play church worship music with guitar chords + improvising, but still feel fairly 'vanilla' with improvising.
I started out as a kind of a classical musician, I learned sheet music and the correct techniques to play the piano. But I never got to playing really technical pieces. One thing that led to my start in improvisation was learnind to play chords to a song. After learning some chords it gets boring just playing the chord in 1st position with root as a bass and repeating the same pattern. So I had to get creative and play with rythm and harmonies: adding some syncopation and playing more complex chords, sus, 7ths and so on. I feel like that when you have a solid basis to build on be it a chord progression of a song or something else it is not that hard to slowly add more details to it. Over time your improvisation skills will develop. Gotta start with baby steps. 🙂
That’s what I’ve been doing for a few years now, (without the classical training, though)
Hi!!! So glad to catch you so early!
Hi! Welcome! Thank you!
Hi dear, you've got the point, I also was a classical pianist trained for many years, now I am an opera singer, but I love jazz and exactly struggling not only with improvisation, but the whole of jazz 🙏
I'm not a classical musician and have very little music training. I'm self-taught on guitar and am a big fan of rock and jazz. I find this topic fascinating. Thanks for diving into it! Please report more on your findings.
I think there is something in between being good at improvising and being incapable of doing it.
In between the two opposites there is transcribing, arranging and finally composing.
It might be difficult to improvise for many people, but it is possible for anyone with study and dedication to transcribe and arrange pieces of music.
And with a good set of transcriptions and arrangements in your database there are many options to use on the fly (close to improvising).
The interesting realization occurred to me is that: mostly structured and disciplined Western Art Music has a profound foundation of improvisation ranging from the middle ages to the end of the baroque period.
My experience is exactly the opposite. I learned to improvise first. And I’ve made a living my entire life by improvising. But a few years ago I decided to start developing a classical repertoire. Recently I have been memorizing the Bach Partitas. Playing the classical pieces has been a real joy for me. They allow me to focus more intensely on technique. And it’s gotten to the point that I sometimes feel like I’m getting into the mind of the composers. It’s interesting to get a feel for how they were thinking when they wrote these pieces.
By the way, thank you so much for your wonderful videos and great music!
always so inspired by you and identifying with you nahre. I went to art school as a jazz piano major with only classical training and continue to struggle with this. It’s a totally different set of connections in the brain, muscles we have to work out, when we’ve spent thousands of hours working out a different set of muscles/connections in our brains our whole lives as classical musicians.
I think there might be something in personality types as well. People who gravitate toward jazz I think are more commonly extroverted, messier, and more free in their overall personality, compared to the more introverted, structured personality of many classical musicians (including myself). Not a bad thing, but might be another reason it can be difficult and feel even more so outside of a comfort zone.
The "Phil Best Music" CZcams channel is an example of a classically trained pianist who improvises regularly and is articulate when describing his approach.
Hey Nahre, there is an anime called Kids on the Slope where a classical musician stumbles into the world of Jazz and Improvisation. It is worth a watch. Only 11 episodes. It can definitely bring to light some mysteries of the world of Improv
Thanks for the hint. I'm watching it now:
czcams.com/video/idVjPXa7SvI/video.html
Hi nahre! The improvisation Is the only way for me to live in the present moment,without judgement! Thank you so much 🙏🌺😍
I started to get deeper in improvisation because of my massive stage fright when playing classical concerts and auditions as a music school student . Now I'm really thankful that I can live and love many ways of making music.
I've recently started playing more classical music and even taking classical piano lessons over the past year and a half. How all of you feel about improvising is how I feel about sight reading..Been working on it a lot lately and practicing every day but my chops are so rudimentary they just seem like a baby learning to speak in comparison lol. But hey, at least I'm comfortable with my improvising after, oh... Ten years :p