I think you're over valuing the Voice + Investiture combo, though it does sound like a fun villain trick or Hikikomori PC. Familiars have relatively low ACs and even lower HP most of the time. Past about level 5 it'd take one hit or spell to remove that "Warlock" from play, even with resistance.
I'm making a undead warlock thats varient human inspiring leader to give my quasit temp hp every short rest. So it's 7 + CHR mod + level × 2 for resisance on a creature that attacks twice on my turn and then goes invisible on it's turn and has a solid chance to poison the opponent.
I really don't think this invocation is overpowered except maybe a little at lower levels. I always felt my familiar was kind of useless and more for rp or the odd useful application. Remember the Warlock has paid a price to have that familiar and sacrificed more spells or the pact weapon for it. The familiar is no more powerful than an extra spell or the pact weapon. Even with damage resistance, their HP is still low. I plan on combining it with the Sculptor of Flesh invocation. I know it can only change into something of the same CR but it gives a tiny bit of an HP boost and some interesting abilities to combine with the raised save DC (e.g. wolf bite). It is a very useful invocation but the Warlock has had to invest a lot into their familiar to make it useful.
Though it is fun for a lvl 10 Genie Warlock to bring the party into its magical bottle, then have your invisible imp carry your party around completely invisible anywhere you want to go or just take long rests in the invisible bottle without worry of getting surprised unless creatures have truesight/blindsight.
Its a great invocation but its fairly balanced. Yes ignoring magical resistance is nice but well Warlocks do that anyways with their Force damage Eldritch Blasts. It gives Chainlocks a good use of a bonus action finally but they will still not likely sacrifice their action for it. It does however combo nicely with the new Mind Sliver cantrip. And remembering the bonus action attack command means the familiar's action is tied up and they cannot go invisible meaning they become very vulnerable. So I think if a DM seriously bans this its a big overreaction, someone invested(pun intended?) a lot for their familiar to be useful, let them well be useful?
Yes and you only Kay feel powerful until Lvl 5 when all the other classes get their build goin. And moust of the campaign are 4-10 Lvl so it's not an issue.
At low levels, this makes your familiar like a pocket rogue! That said, even if you use the resistance for every point of damage, none of the familiars are particularly hearty... It's a lot of fun but I don't think it's too overpowered for the amount of investment (pun intended) needed to make your familiar really bonkers
I was thinking that too. Even if they don't ever get targeted directly (a big assumption if they're flying around poisoning everything for big damage) a single aoe takes them out
I think a really underused combo is Pseudodragon familiar and Investment. You can have them make DC 17 Constitution saving throws to not fall unconscious and DC 22 Constitution saving throws to not be poisoned AS A BONUS ACTION.
it gets better if you hex the creature first giving them disadvantage on the roll. It won't work in one of the campaigns I'm in cause its heavy combat in the underdark, but for that reason alone it wasn't worth taking pact of the tomb and i'm 100% a blaster. so have a familiar that can function as a scout and has hands plus an intelligence and ability to speak is unequivocally useful
This will fix my character completely. *Luke Evergreen* Halfling celestial warlock pact of the chain Sprite familiar I tried to play him once before, but in order to make the Sprite useful required multiple UA invocations. Now all I need is this one and the Sprite becomes *Vastly* better.
I think you’re overstating what is possible with Voice of the Chain Master. It only affects the range of telepathic communication and the sense-sharing ability. Casting spells through your familiar is a separate ability, defined in a different paragraph within the Find Familiar text. The range for that remains at 100 feet.
technically... well, lets see here: 1. you need to be level 3, for pact of the chain. other people have mentioned that. 2. your familiar does not, by itself, have the multiattack feature (usually), which means that a DM would be well within their rights to disallow them attacking twice in their turn. You would be spending your action to tell them to attack, and your bonus action to tell them to attack, but because they only have one attack per turn, they just attack once. (the exact wording leaves room for interpretation, and this 'fix' is so close to rules as written that I have to assume that it is the original intent.) 3. the 'find familiar' spell does not allow you to cast spells or invocations through your familiar, except touch range spells (which still requires the familiar to be within 100ft). neither 'Voice of the Chain Master' nor this invocation change that. So... yeah, assuming you buff the familiar's hit points and allow it to use your proficiency bonus for attack rolls (which it normally does for touch spells, but not its own attacks), it could be an effective addition to the combat arsenal... and if you have access to healing spells and an invisible familiar, you can pull shenanigans with that... but I don't consider either of those to be broken. The worst it seems it could do is deliver a damaging touch spell (your action), then use its own normal attack (your bonus action), but that still hits the issue listed in #2--and at level 5 and up (when warlocks get Vampiric Touch) that is strong but probably not broken. Overall, I'd say its fine. If you gave a requirement of level 5, you could probably allow the familiar to attack twice. That being said, It would be a lot of fun to build a character that uses this and really does stay home all the time. You would be accepting a greatly limited spell selection (and presumably that means a less powerful character), but it could be a lot of fun. And finally, if your character has never shown up in person, and the familiar dies, isn't it a humorous moment when the warlock actually meets the party for the first time, just so their new familiar can travel with them again?
Pact of the chain is my favorite because of voice of the chain master and gift of the ever living ones. I'm not fond of this investment as an attack option, but I can appreciate it as a way to beef up my scouting familiar.
@@Hissingace110 that's the best part about it, even without a dedicated healer you get a lot of HP out of it. Taking a short rest? Use only what you need to max your hp. It gets even sicker if you get a periapt of wound closure. I usually use this invocation on a celestial warlock so I can self heal.
@@k2k4 Ah I hadn't considered short rest hit dice. As of right now, our party has one divine sorcerer with healing word and some potions, and we're level 7 in gritty realism. (8 hour short rests, 7 day long rests) so for now it's more efficient for me to focus on blasting.
I didn't read all the comments, so I dont know if this was brought up, but if you allow the attack with flock of familiars- then that could be devastating at low levels. I plan on finding out.
14:00 Maybe others have mentioned, but you need Pact of the Chain for any of the Invocation, so level 2 you take 2, but neither of these two as you don't yet have pact of the chain, level 3 you swap out an invocation for one of these, then level 4 you can switch out the other one
The earliest this could happen is level 4, since both of those invocations have the pact of the chain as a prerequisite. you could switch out one invocation at level 3 and the second at level 4.
True. I'm going: 2(I)--Agonising Blast 2/3(I)--Investment of the Chain Master 5(I)--Devil's Sight 7(I)--Voice of the Chain Master 8(Feat)--Eldritch Spear
Either u can do 1d4+3 +3d6 poison damage with advantage due to stealth OR 2d4+6 + 6d6 poison damage withought advantage .That is because the imp uses its action to attack and not to go invisible .So i would say this is pretty balanced .You either risk the imp (it has 10 hp) to make one more attack or you take the safe path (hit ->go invisible).Also this doesnt scale well at all if you are level 5 or more.
I totally disagree with how busted you're saying this is. Using your familiar on the other side of the planet with one additional attack, higher DC and resistance is still extraordinarily situational. In regular combat with your familiar, sacrificing your own action to give your familiar an additional attack is still rarely going to be worth it after level 5. It's very cool as a villain gimmick, but otherwise it's well balanced for players.
I have a certain scenario in mind. As a lvl 10 genie warlock you cast a concentration spell and so do all of your party members then you all hop into the genie vessel which is carried by the familiar. You spend your actions on attacks and spells with touch casting range and wait with your buddies until everything outside dies.
I feel like I would argue pact of the chain is quite popular. Mainly as a dip however. Because if you're dipping warlock you can get the number 1 no resource cost Scouting Ability. an invisible creature flying around. Allsoo. its a fun dip for Alchemists with the poisoner feat.. as your familar choice can have a poison. Which you can farm~ The one with an arrow probably doesn't milking. But the other ones with normal poison is valid I bet. how often you can is up to a gm. I do love my Genie/Alchemist combination. Genie is the master who taught them (they have no clue they're a genie). pact of the chain, farm up some poisons, get a bonus action attack. Can power up the Familiar with elixirs. have a lovely little research home in a ring. The familiar is a combination of Alchemy and Enchanting to create a pseudo creature~ since said character has 0 magic ability, and usesa alchemy and enchantments to produce magic effects. and has no clue they entered a Pact; just thought they agreed to their master training and dedication.
@@DrPabon I didn't pick it up until after 8th level. Might be OP for a 3rd level warlock. Depends on your DM, but you definitely need Pact of Chain, and this new evocation will help
That spell is not on the Warlock spell list but if it was, consider that warlocks have only two spell slots most of their career, that’s a huge cost for a familiar buff assuming your DM would allow it (False Life is a “Self” only buff). Because the duration is only one hour, you can’t cast it and then short rest to get your spell a lot back, because that’s the exact timeframe for the False Life benefits to wear off.
@@roberttschaefer I have a planned set up with a Genie lock, (at DM discretion.) that is completely based on combat through your Familiar while you keep safe in your Vessel. Biggest issue is that you need to be a certain race, multiclass or take feat to get Shocking Grasp, because it is the only touch range damage cantrip in the game. Mainly why I wish you could cast spells like False Life on your Familiar, but funnily you can cast Mage Armour through your Familiar so that is some extra survivability if you multiclass or take a feat.
@@bardthestoryteller casting “through” your familiar is vastly different than casting “on” your familiar. But this is all moot because Warlocks do not have False Life on their spell list unless the new Genie or Talisman variants added it. But again, because false life can only work on your own person, I wouldn’t allow it to be cast on a different being. Also, it’s still a huge cost of a spell slot
If you’re using armor of shadows for the mage armor, then the same should apply for fiendish vigor. And warlocks do have access to the false life spell. Since 5e release. It’s an invocation called FIENDISH VIGOR on page 111 of the players handbook.
Yeah when you use your bonus action to command the attack the familiar doesnt actually attack until its turn. So to get the imp attack it costs you its action amd your bonis action.... for 1 attack.
Your over selling this. Its still super weak. The poison is still poison..so usually useless Resistance to damage dosen't matter when its one attack, and at best you're getting 10 hp. So still one shotable
To me Gift of the Ever-living is much better as you get full healing for any healing you receive. That's a consistent 10 hp from a minor healing potion.
Rather than bother with the situational and not-really-that-powerful Voice of the Chain Master invocation, I took the invocation that gives me Mage Armor as a free at will ability. Then I can just cast it on the imp to give it 16 AC, and send it in to tussle while I hide behind a rock or something out of danger. Even with damage resistance, warlock familiars still have such a small health pool that both of my DMs have allowed me a "homebrew" ability to instant cast Find Familiar for free once per day, because if my familiar takes one good hit I am basically nerfed and near useless until I can burn 100 gold and an hour of casting time to get it back. My other tactic is to use the Gazer familiar, and keep it in my hood or on my shoulder as an eye laser machine gun turret, using the Mage Armor on myself. Then when I get a third invocation, take the Tomb of Levistus to use the ice block reaction to protect both of us from AoE.
Used imp, great for a couple of levels as scout, then becomes pretty useless being oneshotted as easily as a fly if you try to use it in combat. you're better off using eldritch versatility to swap to tome as soon as the DM allows... You can still get a standard find familiar as ritual which is an ok scout and deliver touch spells....
Not a big deal but he said was "do you want to be invincible at lvl 2" but you don't get Pact of the Chain or any Pact until lvl 3. Also, unless you get a free feat or you're custom lineage or variant human, (or Celestial you get Cure Wounds) the Warlock and no useful touch spells to cast. Your Imp also has 10 hit points (20 if you apply resistance basically) but also has to be in melee the whole time since it can't cast distance spells, only touch. Point of being a Warlock (other than Hexblade) is to be at a distance and cast eldritch blast. So can't do that with this combo. So while it sounds ok on paper (again at very low lvls like 3 and 4) still not super practical at lvl 5 and onward I would say. Though not bad at lvl 5 to have Warlock cast eldritch blast x2, have Hex up and bonus attack with Imp. That works for a few more lvls, then typically you'll want to switch Pacts at lvl 8 unless you really like the invisible scout feature since Tome will get you ritual casting and find familiar spell (just not cool familiars like Imps) but good enough to still give you the Help action and scout. Also I don't believe the poison dmg it deals is magical for resistant purposes, so if creatures are immune or resistant to poison that would still apply and deal less dmg. If you still want your Imp to attack but don't want it up close where it'll die, just create a bunch of Magic Stones and have the Imp throw them from a distance as a bonus action.
The question I have is when do these attacks happen? Reaction indicates right now. Using your action to "command" indicates on the Familiar 's turn. I haven't seen any clear answers.
My DM has ruled it as a free action that happens immediately, because the language "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action" doesn't specify "on their turn" or "as a reaction". The downside to this is that the familiar must already be in striking position, since it doesn't get to move first. But I've also seen the argument that the attack happens on the familiar's turn using their attack action, because the wording "Attack action" is different from just "Attack". Attack action is normally something that can only happen during your turn, unless you've used the Hold Action.
@@Hissingace110 thanks for the response. To clarify if they take the attack as a free action and the reaction as an attack, does the familiar also get their own turn to attack? Making 3 attacks by the familiar in one full combat round.
@@skidmoda No, they'd get a maximum of two attacks, because familiars cannot normally attack on their turn. With the situation you described, they would still have their action available to 'Help' or become invisible, or interact with an object, but they can't attack on their own. And generally, to grant them an attack using their reaction, you'd need to use your Warlock's main action, which is rarely worth doing.
Have the imp hold an object cast darkness on it. This effectively gives it flyby because in order to have an opportunity to attack you need to be able to see the target. and it can't blind Itself because Imps have devil's sights. And if you want to be real rude you can have the imp fly just above your target. Darkness has a 15 foot raduis as long as your target has no range you can consistently give it disadvantage every turn while giving your party advantage. Lots of fun stuff here but the main point of the combo is to make combat with the familiar a little less risky with your familiar by giving it pseudo flyby
And they haven’t even factored in a rod of the pact keeper. Considering how many creatures are immune or resistant to poison and sleep effects I’d say it balances out mid to late game, while making pact of the chain a viable and an enjoyable option for players. As for the survivability of the familiar you could potentially give it some magic items to give it an increased edge.
I like the idea of kitting out my familiar, but based on my understanding, the gear wouldn't travel with them if they're dismissed and then popped back in near you, which is a very useful tool.
One thing you said here that isn’t accurate: if you forego your attack action to command the familiar to attack, then the familiar’s one attack action is over with. You cannot then use your bonus action with this invocation to command the familiar to attack twice in the round. This invocation is nice because you get to now choose which (Action or Bonus Action).
Your slightly off on that. You spend an action so that your familiar uses it's reaction for a attack. The bonus action to make it attack doesn't force it to use a reaction again. It's just a basic attack action after. You could say when it gets to it's turn after it has no actions but that's not how it seems to work when looking at how turns go and the wording used. This extra attack seems completely free.
@@otd299 - this is still giving the familiar multiple attacks in the same turn when there is nothing in their stat block which suggests that is possible. This is an exploit I would not allow at the table, but I understand that each table is going to be different. Yes, the familiar gets to take an action on their turn, but they cannot use their action to make a second attack. It is still beneficial because they can do things like take a help action on their turn. Normally that would not be possible after attacking.
@@roberttschaefer Oh definitely each table is different and may rule differently. I am merely stating by RAW the imps stat block is largely irrelevant here unless the move states otherwise. The invocation and boon work independently of each other and by RAW it will state whether or not it uses an imps action. As it is not the imps turn it still by all accounts can even still give help. The chain boon uses your action and the familiar reaction while the invocation states only your bonus action and its action. Until such errata is devised or dm says otherwise this is how it was put in. Inferences to a imps stat block to say otherwise would then be RAI or really just DM perspective as nothing denotes its action not being able to use the attack action and its reaction for it's attack on the same turn.
Hey buddy totally agree with you. I'm a huge pact of the chain fan. Like having an invisible flying helper that's also a scrying sensor and you can train it you spent 250 gold pieces you can train your intelligent familiar to use tools. So let's think about this we have a flying invisible little player character that can go anywhere in the world and if it dies I can always make it come back to life. Bonus here's a question when it steals an object does it get to keep it when I teleport it to its pocket Dimension? So could I technically have a flying little thief I could go and grab objects for me and pull them out of reality? Now that is powerful and dangerous. for this feet I don't think it's 2 game breaking. I mean the invocations alterations of the save DC on my familiars is a cute little bonus to try and make them useful in combat. I mean if you have a Sprite flying around peppering people with sleep arrows eventually they're going to fail a save
Techincally yes, but unlike the Pseudodragons "Fail the save by 5" the sprite has the clause, "If their total saving roll is 5 or lower" which is FAR less likely to happen.
Pseudodragon has 7 HP with resistance he still dies first chance he gets attacked. And being able to cast 2 touch (look how few there are) spells is far from optimal.
depends on the aoe. Imps for example naturally have resistance to cold; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing for a nonmagical non silvered weapon. On top of having magical resistance. So that cone of cold they get hit with? easy half damage due to advantage, then because resistance to cold is seperate from the save it only takes 1/4 damage. give it a few magic times because the imp can use them. Has both an intelligence and hands. You now have a mobile healer that's almost always invisible, and use the help action without provoking attacks of opportunity. Lets also not forget it can see in magical darkness. So when you as the warlock use darkness as a field disruptor it can do actions inside that darkness without penalty.
Not sure that's right, you have 2 means of giving a familiar the way to attack. One is to take the attack action, which uses your familliar's REaction, not their ACTION action. Then you can use the bonus action granted by "Investment" to allow the creature to use it's own action to attack.
@@roberttschaefer It doesn't need 2 attacks per round, it just needs permission to make an attack as an action (From Pact) and as a reaction (From Investment) It's like how a level 1 fighter can use two weapons to make one attack with their action, and one attack as a bonus action.
@@jessie-buns839 as a DM, I would not allow a creature that does not have multi-attack in their stat block to all of a sudden gain that ability because it benefits the player. There is nothing in the Imp stat block indicating that it can use its reaction to make a bonus second attack in the same round. You are reading this into the invocation as written. Unless it specifically states that the Warlock can bestow this ability onto the familiar, then it doesn’t happen.
Also, please understand that “making an attack” is entirely different than taking the attack action. The benefit of this invocation, is that it allows the familiar to make an attack as a reaction. That means the familiar is free do things with its own action, like taking the help action or moving, or flying or picking up an object etc. you could also use it to cast a touch spell through it on its action.
I'm sorry? Is your build idea really to just use the chainmaster invocations on a chainmaster build? Sorry brother, you are not the first person to think of this, lmao
Lawlz, you're completely overreacting. It's a nice source of chip damage, but attacking and casting touch spells with them still puts them at risk for attacks and opportunity attacks.
Aren’t familiars easily killable? The enemy gets bit, sees your pet, kills it, done. Seems balanced. Honestly they seem more versed in info gathering rather than combat. I also hate nerfs in fighting games and rpgs so perhaps I’m biased but warlocks are squishy and now they have a squishy pet that can go further away with one good attack before they’re smashed by your giants, ogres, devils, tarrasques, etc. Giving PCs a little boost isn’t too much IMO. Also bear in mind not everyone is a midmaxer craving that new meta hoping to destroy the DMs campaign.
I feel youre comparing your warlock to a commoner when you talk about how overpowered it is.. So, How about build two warlocks, get pact of the chain on one, and any other on another. Let them both fight against a dummy or star in other scenarios. See how much they differ in effectiveness compared to eachother.
Well, the familiar will add more damage than Tome, Talisman, and Blade. Eldritch Blasts + Familiar Attack > Using a sword. I don’t think it’s as op, but it is better damage.
Now I can teach my Abyssal Chicken to fly!!
I think you're over valuing the Voice + Investiture combo, though it does sound like a fun villain trick or Hikikomori PC.
Familiars have relatively low ACs and even lower HP most of the time. Past about level 5 it'd take one hit or spell to remove that "Warlock" from play, even with resistance.
I'm making a undead warlock thats varient human inspiring leader to give my quasit temp hp every short rest.
So it's 7 + CHR mod + level × 2 for resisance on a creature that attacks twice on my turn and then goes invisible on it's turn and has a solid chance to poison the opponent.
I really don't think this invocation is overpowered except maybe a little at lower levels. I always felt my familiar was kind of useless and more for rp or the odd useful application. Remember the Warlock has paid a price to have that familiar and sacrificed more spells or the pact weapon for it. The familiar is no more powerful than an extra spell or the pact weapon.
Even with damage resistance, their HP is still low. I plan on combining it with the Sculptor of Flesh invocation. I know it can only change into something of the same CR but it gives a tiny bit of an HP boost and some interesting abilities to combine with the raised save DC (e.g. wolf bite).
It is a very useful invocation but the Warlock has had to invest a lot into their familiar to make it useful.
Though it is fun for a lvl 10 Genie Warlock to bring the party into its magical bottle, then have your invisible imp carry your party around completely invisible anywhere you want to go or just take long rests in the invisible bottle without worry of getting surprised unless creatures have truesight/blindsight.
don't you have to be level 3 to even get a pact boon option?
Yes
@QQUPID DBW no, you can swap out an invocation anytime you take a level in warlock, so you can pick this up at three
Its a great invocation but its fairly balanced. Yes ignoring magical resistance is nice but well Warlocks do that anyways with their Force damage Eldritch Blasts. It gives Chainlocks a good use of a bonus action finally but they will still not likely sacrifice their action for it. It does however combo nicely with the new Mind Sliver cantrip.
And remembering the bonus action attack command means the familiar's action is tied up and they cannot go invisible meaning they become very vulnerable. So I think if a DM seriously bans this its a big overreaction, someone invested(pun intended?) a lot for their familiar to be useful, let them well be useful?
Yes and you only Kay feel powerful until Lvl 5 when all the other classes get their build goin. And moust of the campaign are 4-10 Lvl so it's not an issue.
"grant swimming speed of 40ft", so technically you can grant bat and raven swimming speed of 40ft ?
At low levels, this makes your familiar like a pocket rogue! That said, even if you use the resistance for every point of damage, none of the familiars are particularly hearty... It's a lot of fun but I don't think it's too overpowered for the amount of investment (pun intended) needed to make your familiar really bonkers
Chain familiars have like 8 HP, you're getting really excited over not much of anything
I was thinking that too. Even if they don't ever get targeted directly (a big assumption if they're flying around poisoning everything for big damage) a single aoe takes them out
Resistance halves that damage and if you take the inspiring leader feat that's a pretty good ammount of HP to give out.
I think a really underused combo is Pseudodragon familiar and Investment. You can have them make DC 17 Constitution saving throws to not fall unconscious and DC 22 Constitution saving throws to not be poisoned AS A BONUS ACTION.
Your pseudodragon is going to get merked after it’s first attack tho lol
it gets better if you hex the creature first giving them disadvantage on the roll. It won't work in one of the campaigns I'm in cause its heavy combat in the underdark, but for that reason alone it wasn't worth taking pact of the tomb and i'm 100% a blaster. so have a familiar that can function as a scout and has hands plus an intelligence and ability to speak is unequivocally useful
@@jamestaylor9887 Hex only applies to ability checks, not Saving Throws
If you have managed to build your warlock to a DC 22, you might just have better things to do than attack with your familiar...
@@rudewalrus5636 This comment is over two years old. I don't even play D&D anymore.
This will fix my character completely.
*Luke Evergreen*
Halfling celestial warlock pact of the chain
Sprite familiar
I tried to play him once before, but in order to make the Sprite useful required multiple UA invocations.
Now all I need is this one and the Sprite becomes *Vastly* better.
I think you’re overstating what is possible with Voice of the Chain Master. It only affects the range of telepathic communication and the sense-sharing ability. Casting spells through your familiar is a separate ability, defined in a different paragraph within the Find Familiar text. The range for that remains at 100 feet.
technically... well, lets see here:
1. you need to be level 3, for pact of the chain. other people have mentioned that.
2. your familiar does not, by itself, have the multiattack feature (usually), which means that a DM would be well within their rights to disallow them attacking twice in their turn. You would be spending your action to tell them to attack, and your bonus action to tell them to attack, but because they only have one attack per turn, they just attack once. (the exact wording leaves room for interpretation, and this 'fix' is so close to rules as written that I have to assume that it is the original intent.)
3. the 'find familiar' spell does not allow you to cast spells or invocations through your familiar, except touch range spells (which still requires the familiar to be within 100ft). neither 'Voice of the Chain Master' nor this invocation change that.
So... yeah, assuming you buff the familiar's hit points and allow it to use your proficiency bonus for attack rolls (which it normally does for touch spells, but not its own attacks), it could be an effective addition to the combat arsenal... and if you have access to healing spells and an invisible familiar, you can pull shenanigans with that... but I don't consider either of those to be broken. The worst it seems it could do is deliver a damaging touch spell (your action), then use its own normal attack (your bonus action), but that still hits the issue listed in #2--and at level 5 and up (when warlocks get Vampiric Touch) that is strong but probably not broken.
Overall, I'd say its fine. If you gave a requirement of level 5, you could probably allow the familiar to attack twice.
That being said, It would be a lot of fun to build a character that uses this and really does stay home all the time. You would be accepting a greatly limited spell selection (and presumably that means a less powerful character), but it could be a lot of fun.
And finally, if your character has never shown up in person, and the familiar dies, isn't it a humorous moment when the warlock actually meets the party for the first time, just so their new familiar can travel with them again?
Pact of the chain is my favorite because of voice of the chain master and gift of the ever living ones. I'm not fond of this investment as an attack option, but I can appreciate it as a way to beef up my scouting familiar.
Gift of the Ever Living Ones would be fantastic if anybody in my party ever wanted to play a dedicated healer hahaha.
@@Hissingace110 that's the best part about it, even without a dedicated healer you get a lot of HP out of it. Taking a short rest? Use only what you need to max your hp. It gets even sicker if you get a periapt of wound closure. I usually use this invocation on a celestial warlock so I can self heal.
@@k2k4 Ah I hadn't considered short rest hit dice. As of right now, our party has one divine sorcerer with healing word and some potions, and we're level 7 in gritty realism. (8 hour short rests, 7 day long rests) so for now it's more efficient for me to focus on blasting.
I didn't read all the comments, so I dont know if this was brought up, but if you allow the attack with flock of familiars- then that could be devastating at low levels. I plan on finding out.
14:00 Maybe others have mentioned, but you need Pact of the Chain for any of the Invocation, so level 2 you take 2, but neither of these two as you don't yet have pact of the chain, level 3 you swap out an invocation for one of these, then level 4 you can switch out the other one
The earliest this could happen is level 4, since both of those invocations have the pact of the chain as a prerequisite. you could switch out one invocation at level 3 and the second at level 4.
True.
I'm going:
2(I)--Agonising Blast
2/3(I)--Investment of the Chain Master
5(I)--Devil's Sight
7(I)--Voice of the Chain Master
8(Feat)--Eldritch Spear
@@gaelofariandel6747 I get the Doctor Who reference in your username!
Either u can do 1d4+3 +3d6 poison damage with advantage due to stealth OR 2d4+6 + 6d6 poison damage withought advantage .That is because the imp uses its action to attack and not to go invisible .So i would say this is pretty balanced .You either risk the imp (it has 10 hp) to make one more attack or you take the safe path (hit ->go invisible).Also this doesnt scale well at all if you are level 5 or more.
I totally disagree with how busted you're saying this is. Using your familiar on the other side of the planet with one additional attack, higher DC and resistance is still extraordinarily situational. In regular combat with your familiar, sacrificing your own action to give your familiar an additional attack is still rarely going to be worth it after level 5. It's very cool as a villain gimmick, but otherwise it's well balanced for players.
I have a certain scenario in mind. As a lvl 10 genie warlock you cast a concentration spell and so do all of your party members then you all hop into the genie vessel which is carried by the familiar. You spend your actions on attacks and spells with touch casting range and wait with your buddies until everything outside dies.
I feel like I would argue pact of the chain is quite popular. Mainly as a dip however. Because if you're dipping warlock you can get the number 1 no resource cost Scouting Ability. an invisible creature flying around.
Allsoo. its a fun dip for Alchemists with the poisoner feat.. as your familar choice can have a poison. Which you can farm~
The one with an arrow probably doesn't milking. But the other ones with normal poison is valid I bet.
how often you can is up to a gm.
I do love my Genie/Alchemist combination. Genie is the master who taught them (they have no clue they're a genie).
pact of the chain, farm up some poisons, get a bonus action attack. Can power up the Familiar with elixirs.
have a lovely little research home in a ring.
The familiar is a combination of Alchemy and Enchanting to create a pseudo creature~
since said character has 0 magic ability, and usesa alchemy and enchantments to produce magic effects. and has no clue they entered a Pact; just thought they agreed to their master training and dedication.
My warlock has a flying snake, which already has 60 flying, 30 swim, blindsight, and fly-by
wait warlock can pick him or is homerulem?
@@DrPabon I didn't pick it up until after 8th level. Might be OP for a 3rd level warlock. Depends on your DM, but you definitely need Pact of Chain, and this new evocation will help
The specific rules of the class feature override the general rule of the find familiar spell
I would argue giving you the ability to cast False Life on your Familiar too, just to make it more survivable
That spell is not on the Warlock spell list but if it was, consider that warlocks have only two spell slots most of their career, that’s a huge cost for a familiar buff assuming your DM would allow it (False Life is a “Self” only buff). Because the duration is only one hour, you can’t cast it and then short rest to get your spell a lot back, because that’s the exact timeframe for the False Life benefits to wear off.
However... if the character was perhaps a “Sorlock” multiclass, then it might be an interesting option.
@@roberttschaefer I have a planned set up with a Genie lock, (at DM discretion.) that is completely based on combat through your Familiar while you keep safe in your Vessel. Biggest issue is that you need to be a certain race, multiclass or take feat to get Shocking Grasp, because it is the only touch range damage cantrip in the game.
Mainly why I wish you could cast spells like False Life on your Familiar, but funnily you can cast Mage Armour through your Familiar so that is some extra survivability if you multiclass or take a feat.
@@bardthestoryteller casting “through” your familiar is vastly different than casting “on” your familiar. But this is all moot because Warlocks do not have False Life on their spell list unless the new Genie or Talisman variants added it. But again, because false life can only work on your own person, I wouldn’t allow it to be cast on a different being. Also, it’s still a huge cost of a spell slot
If you’re using armor of shadows for the mage armor, then the same should apply for fiendish vigor. And warlocks do have access to the false life spell. Since 5e release. It’s an invocation called FIENDISH VIGOR on page 111 of the players handbook.
I'm trying to discern how this interacts with flock of familiars.
Yeah when you use your bonus action to command the attack the familiar doesnt actually attack until its turn. So to get the imp attack it costs you its action amd your bonis action.... for 1 attack.
Its like playing a Pokémon trainer
Especially if you class into wizard up to 2nd level spells as well and let it use dragon's breath, enlarge/reduce, shocking grasp, and mage armor.
now add... FLock of Familers to this ...
Bahahah. [Laughs in Warlock]
Your over selling this. Its still super weak.
The poison is still poison..so usually useless
Resistance to damage dosen't matter when its one attack, and at best you're getting 10 hp. So still one shotable
Je cant do 2d4 + 6d6 per round. You are looking at it wrong.
To me Gift of the Ever-living is much better as you get full healing for any healing you receive.
That's a consistent 10 hp from a minor healing potion.
Rather than bother with the situational and not-really-that-powerful Voice of the Chain Master invocation, I took the invocation that gives me Mage Armor as a free at will ability. Then I can just cast it on the imp to give it 16 AC, and send it in to tussle while I hide behind a rock or something out of danger. Even with damage resistance, warlock familiars still have such a small health pool that both of my DMs have allowed me a "homebrew" ability to instant cast Find Familiar for free once per day, because if my familiar takes one good hit I am basically nerfed and near useless until I can burn 100 gold and an hour of casting time to get it back.
My other tactic is to use the Gazer familiar, and keep it in my hood or on my shoulder as an eye laser machine gun turret, using the Mage Armor on myself. Then when I get a third invocation, take the Tomb of Levistus to use the ice block reaction to protect both of us from AoE.
Used imp, great for a couple of levels as scout, then becomes pretty useless being oneshotted as easily as a fly if you try to use it in combat. you're better off using eldritch versatility to swap to tome as soon as the DM allows... You can still get a standard find familiar as ritual which is an ok scout and deliver touch spells....
Not a big deal but he said was "do you want to be invincible at lvl 2" but you don't get Pact of the Chain or any Pact until lvl 3. Also, unless you get a free feat or you're custom lineage or variant human, (or Celestial you get Cure Wounds) the Warlock and no useful touch spells to cast. Your Imp also has 10 hit points (20 if you apply resistance basically) but also has to be in melee the whole time since it can't cast distance spells, only touch. Point of being a Warlock (other than Hexblade) is to be at a distance and cast eldritch blast. So can't do that with this combo. So while it sounds ok on paper (again at very low lvls like 3 and 4) still not super practical at lvl 5 and onward I would say. Though not bad at lvl 5 to have Warlock cast eldritch blast x2, have Hex up and bonus attack with Imp. That works for a few more lvls, then typically you'll want to switch Pacts at lvl 8 unless you really like the invisible scout feature since Tome will get you ritual casting and find familiar spell (just not cool familiars like Imps) but good enough to still give you the Help action and scout.
Also I don't believe the poison dmg it deals is magical for resistant purposes, so if creatures are immune or resistant to poison that would still apply and deal less dmg.
If you still want your Imp to attack but don't want it up close where it'll die, just create a bunch of Magic Stones and have the Imp throw them from a distance as a bonus action.
The question I have is when do these attacks happen? Reaction indicates right now. Using your action to "command" indicates on the Familiar 's turn. I haven't seen any clear answers.
My DM has ruled it as a free action that happens immediately, because the language "As a bonus action, you can command the familiar to take the Attack action" doesn't specify "on their turn" or "as a reaction". The downside to this is that the familiar must already be in striking position, since it doesn't get to move first.
But I've also seen the argument that the attack happens on the familiar's turn using their attack action, because the wording "Attack action" is different from just "Attack". Attack action is normally something that can only happen during your turn, unless you've used the Hold Action.
@@Hissingace110 thanks for the response. To clarify if they take the attack as a free action and the reaction as an attack, does the familiar also get their own turn to attack? Making 3 attacks by the familiar in one full combat round.
@@skidmoda No, they'd get a maximum of two attacks, because familiars cannot normally attack on their turn. With the situation you described, they would still have their action available to 'Help' or become invisible, or interact with an object, but they can't attack on their own. And generally, to grant them an attack using their reaction, you'd need to use your Warlock's main action, which is rarely worth doing.
*level 3. Need pact of the chain
Have the imp hold an object cast darkness on it. This effectively gives it flyby because in order to have an opportunity to attack you need to be able to see the target. and it can't blind Itself because Imps have devil's sights. And if you want to be real rude you can have the imp fly just above your target. Darkness has a 15 foot raduis as long as your target has no range you can consistently give it disadvantage every turn while giving your party advantage.
Lots of fun stuff here but the main point of the combo is to make combat with the familiar a little less risky with your familiar by giving it pseudo flyby
Better than fly by because it applies disadvantage to all attacks as well as making attacks of opportunity impossible.
The object can only be carried if you (the caster) are carrying it not another creature (the familiar)
And they haven’t even factored in a rod of the pact keeper. Considering how many creatures are immune or resistant to poison and sleep effects I’d say it balances out mid to late game, while making pact of the chain a viable and an enjoyable option for players.
As for the survivability of the familiar you could potentially give it some magic items to give it an increased edge.
I like the idea of kitting out my familiar, but based on my understanding, the gear wouldn't travel with them if they're dismissed and then popped back in near you, which is a very useful tool.
Find familiar digivolve toooooooo...Broken familiar
One thing you said here that isn’t accurate: if you forego your attack action to command the familiar to attack, then the familiar’s one attack action is over with. You cannot then use your bonus action with this invocation to command the familiar to attack twice in the round. This invocation is nice because you get to now choose which (Action or Bonus Action).
Your slightly off on that. You spend an action so that your familiar uses it's reaction for a attack. The bonus action to make it attack doesn't force it to use a reaction again. It's just a basic attack action after. You could say when it gets to it's turn after it has no actions but that's not how it seems to work when looking at how turns go and the wording used. This extra attack seems completely free.
@@otd299 - this is still giving the familiar multiple attacks in the same turn when there is nothing in their stat block which suggests that is possible. This is an exploit I would not allow at the table, but I understand that each table is going to be different. Yes, the familiar gets to take an action on their turn, but they cannot use their action to make a second attack. It is still beneficial because they can do things like take a help action on their turn. Normally that would not be possible after attacking.
@@roberttschaefer Oh definitely each table is different and may rule differently. I am merely stating by RAW the imps stat block is largely irrelevant here unless the move states otherwise. The invocation and boon work independently of each other and by RAW it will state whether or not it uses an imps action. As it is not the imps turn it still by all accounts can even still give help. The chain boon uses your action and the familiar reaction while the invocation states only your bonus action and its action. Until such errata is devised or dm says otherwise this is how it was put in. Inferences to a imps stat block to say otherwise would then be RAI or really just DM perspective as nothing denotes its action not being able to use the attack action and its reaction for it's attack on the same turn.
Hey buddy totally agree with you. I'm a huge pact of the chain fan. Like having an invisible flying helper that's also a scrying sensor and you can train it you spent 250 gold pieces you can train your intelligent familiar to use tools. So let's think about this we have a flying invisible little player character that can go anywhere in the world and if it dies I can always make it come back to life. Bonus here's a question when it steals an object does it get to keep it when I teleport it to its pocket Dimension? So could I technically have a flying little thief I could go and grab objects for me and pull them out of reality? Now that is powerful and dangerous. for this feet I don't think it's 2 game breaking. I mean the invocations alterations of the save DC on my familiars is a cute little bonus to try and make them useful in combat. I mean if you have a Sprite flying around peppering people with sleep arrows eventually they're going to fail a save
It’s strong enough to carry a bag of holding and they can attune to magic items.
the sprite becomes an invisible needle gun that will kill you. OMG it's too op
i believe they take their items with them which would be bad if it has a bag of holding
How about polymorph on your familiar along with aid maybe?😁
Doesn't the sprite have a ranged attack that can render the target unconscious?
Techincally yes, but unlike the Pseudodragons "Fail the save by 5" the sprite has the clause, "If their total saving roll is 5 or lower" which is FAR less likely to happen.
Pseudodragon has 7 HP with resistance he still dies first chance he gets attacked.
And being able to cast 2 touch (look how few there are) spells is far from optimal.
It doesnt change the familiars one hit hp pool. Even with the "Resistance" tossed in. One AoE is enough to wipe the Familiar out.
depends on the aoe. Imps for example naturally have resistance to cold; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing for a nonmagical non silvered weapon. On top of having magical resistance. So that cone of cold they get hit with? easy half damage due to advantage, then because resistance to cold is seperate from the save it only takes 1/4 damage. give it a few magic times because the imp can use them. Has both an intelligence and hands. You now have a mobile healer that's almost always invisible, and use the help action without provoking attacks of opportunity. Lets also not forget it can see in magical darkness. So when you as the warlock use darkness as a field disruptor it can do actions inside that darkness without penalty.
It said you could do it. Didn't say you wouldn't have lag at extreme distances?
Sprite poison people with there bow without a save. So that mean when fighting humanoids it's OP
If this cannot be taken until 3rd level, then how could it make you “un-killable” at level 2?
Not sure that's right, you have 2 means of giving a familiar the way to attack. One is to take the attack action, which uses your familliar's REaction, not their ACTION action. Then you can use the bonus action granted by "Investment" to allow the creature to use it's own action to attack.
@@jessie-buns839sorry but the imp does not have two attacks per round.
@@roberttschaefer It doesn't need 2 attacks per round, it just needs permission to make an attack as an action (From Pact) and as a reaction (From Investment)
It's like how a level 1 fighter can use two weapons to make one attack with their action, and one attack as a bonus action.
@@jessie-buns839 as a DM, I would not allow a creature that does not have multi-attack in their stat block to all of a sudden gain that ability because it benefits the player. There is nothing in the Imp stat block indicating that it can use its reaction to make a bonus second attack in the same round. You are reading this into the invocation as written. Unless it specifically states that the Warlock can bestow this ability onto the familiar, then it doesn’t happen.
Also, please understand that “making an attack” is entirely different than taking the attack action. The benefit of this invocation, is that it allows the familiar to make an attack as a reaction. That means the familiar is free do things with its own action, like taking the help action or moving, or flying or picking up an object etc. you could also use it to cast a touch spell through it on its action.
I'm sorry? Is your build idea really to just use the chainmaster invocations on a chainmaster build? Sorry brother, you are not the first person to think of this, lmao
Lawlz, you're completely overreacting. It's a nice source of chip damage, but attacking and casting touch spells with them still puts them at risk for attacks and opportunity attacks.
Aren’t familiars easily killable? The enemy gets bit, sees your pet, kills it, done. Seems balanced. Honestly they seem more versed in info gathering rather than combat.
I also hate nerfs in fighting games and rpgs so perhaps I’m biased but warlocks are squishy and now they have a squishy pet that can go further away with one good attack before they’re smashed by your giants, ogres, devils, tarrasques, etc. Giving PCs a little boost isn’t too much IMO.
Also bear in mind not everyone is a midmaxer craving that new meta hoping to destroy the DMs campaign.
I feel youre comparing your warlock to a commoner when you talk about how overpowered it is.. So,
How about build two warlocks, get pact of the chain on one, and any other on another.
Let them both fight against a dummy or star in other scenarios.
See how much they differ in effectiveness compared to eachother.
Well, the familiar will add more damage than Tome, Talisman, and Blade. Eldritch Blasts + Familiar Attack > Using a sword. I don’t think it’s as op, but it is better damage.