Unlimited WHAT!? - BATMAN RETURNS SCRIPT DEEP DIVE
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- Andrew and The Man Who Knows Too Much About Batman, Ben Wan, go over the original drafts for Batman 2 by Sam Hamm and then Batman 2 by Daniel Waters before it became Batman Returns.
3:10 Sam Hamm's Batman 2 script
38:55 The SHOCKING twist that would've rewritten the Waynes' backstories as well as Jack Napier/The Joker
57:10 Ben's Fancast for The Penguin, Robin, and Catwoman in Sam Hamm's Batman 2
1:01:17 Daniel Waters's Batman 2 script
1:31:29 Ben DEBUNKS the popular fan rumor that Max Shreck was originally going to be Harvey Dent, with evidence from the screenwriters themselves.
RELATED VIDEOS:
BATMAN RETURNS REVIEW: • BATMAN RETURNS REVIEW
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Christopher Walken opening up the video saying "Pooooon-Tang"🤣
Christopher Walken is such a great character actor.
Sam Hamm is going to get to make his own comic series called Batman 89
That's right. It'll be a true sequel to the 89 movie.
@Evan Zaremba Except it isn't really. Hamm needed some assistance. : (
@@LoganWood121 get and read it.
@Evan Zaremba I've got it and I've read it. Still waiting on the last two issues that were due months ago.
@@LoganWood121 don't worry. They'll come.
I love Tim’s films there’s something so magical about both of his Batman’s. Yet every time I hear about these other versions it’s endlessly fascinating. partially because it lends itself to our own imaginations, and that will always be appealing. Thank you so much for all the information
I love Tim Burton's and Joel Schumacher's Batman, those looked stylized.
@@evanzaremba4722 I still agree they’re both so magical in their own way and I wouldn’t replace all four of those movies or anything
@@gregorykollarus8190 yeah. Me too.
1:22.58 - Max Schreks motivation in placing Penguin for Mayor in the actual finished movie WAS so that he could get his power plant done. The current Mayor and Bruce were against the power plant. Its all in the movie.
Yes, that's definitely Max's motivation to get Penguin to run for Mayor in the movie, but it's never said that his endgame is to strongarm the current Mayor into giving him the power plant and pull his support of Penguin once he gets what he wants.
The power plant is never really mentioned again after the Bruce-Shreck meeting in the film and Max's betrayal of Penguin was cut down to just him abandoning him in the plaza when Batman leaks the audio, which doesn't hit as hard as the original version here (though the movie does make Batman more active in Penguin's downfall).
@@SuperHousePodcast I like to think it's just a mcguffin, just to get the Penguin into the movie, to run for Mayor and it shows conflict between Max and Bruce. It's also another plot device to have him push Selina out the window. For me it didn't have to go anywhere. The power plant couldn't go anywhere once penguin was foiled by Batman. Shrek was back to where he was at the start of the Movie, and it wasn't really that important to the plot anymore anyway because bigger things were happening. That's just my thoughts on it, I had never really read much into it before lol Schreks the real villian of returns. He's a catalyst for a lot of what happens. A manipulater, a bully and a killer all disguised under a business suit.
@@shamrockballs1066 Also, thanks for your support here. We did a shoutout to you in our latest episode as a thank you: czcams.com/video/GCcND9HOLWs/video.html
@@SuperHousePodcast Hey Guys, thank you! Ive been meaning to watch your latest episode on The Dark a knight Rises, I will watch it today. I am on your FB page, I will reveal my real identity on there lol
Wrong, his real motive is so he and Penguin can work together to get unlimited poontang
2 years later this is still my favorite deep dive on y'all channel. Fun fact BEN The Batman 2 script first draft raven statue idea came from Adam West Batman 60's show in episode 19 - The Pur fect Crime and Episode 20 Better Luck Next Time where catwoman steals two golden cat statues and find a map which leads the treasure to a cave where she falls off a cliff to her death the same way Sam Hamm did with Penguin and that's why she is more villianess because of the 60s show.
Thanks, Sparkageddon! We responded to your comment here: czcams.com/video/VQDWFUK_NpE/video.html
Tim Burton didn't like Sam Hamm's Batman II script, that he generally considered pretty horrendous, with a version of Penguin as a treasure hunting ex-convict named Mr. Boniface [not Oswald Cobblepot. In Detective Comics #58 (1941) the Penguin merely posed as a respectable citizen to fool the police under the alias of Mr. Boniface to stage an elaborate fraud and frame Batman, it wasn't the Penguin's real name], a evil Selina Kyle as a murderous museum curator with Freddy Krueger inspired dialogue as she's slashing people, Bruce still in his less-than-exciting relationship with Vicki Vale, and Grayson Robin making a less-than-exciting entrance as a crime-fighting homeless boy, completely removing all the circus origin stuff that Burton obviously likes. I'm so glad we got Batman Returns instead. Daniel Waters' Batman Returns and Heathers are rad! In Starburst #134 (1989) Tim Burton explained, "Incidentally, Kim isn't producer Jon Peters' girlfriend and she didn't get the part through favoritism. It was yet more of the salacious gossip we've had to put up with. We sued an English tabloid newspaper over that report." www.1989batman.com/2014/02/vintage-magazine-article-starburst_18.html
Tim Burton wanted to withdraw from Jon Peters and Peter Guber as Bat producers so they did not produce Batman Returns, and Michael Uslan sued Jon Peters and Peter Guber in 1992. www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1992/03/27/holy-lawsuit-batman/618f302a-4ec5-4a9d-a413-e94d2b98ced5/
Sounds Like Jason Todd Story or Tim Drake on the cartoon
That's a ridiculous thing that Burton had done. And he learned his lesson when he hired his friend Schumacher to carry on with the films.
@@evanzaremba4722 Tim Burton did not hire Schumacher to carry on with the films. Warner executives didn't want Tim Burton to do another one unless he was willing to make a much less dark Dark Knight for the third one and Burton wasn't gonna lighten it up. Entertainment Weekly [July 31st 1992] reported, "Warner executives intend to make sure that Batman 3 and its progeny showcase a much less dark Dark Knight - a kind of Batman Lite - possibly without Burton at the helm. The chief of a rival studio said, "If you bring back Burton and Keaton, you're stuck with their vision.'" ew.com/article/1992/07/31/unhappy-returns/?fbclid=IwAR23F0ISZhJB_ErBdDCDeJgeHkjQQOJ3ILabr5SAS9ZMbZFTwGg8JitDmvg Joel Schumacher said, "Bob Daly or Terry Semel, I can't remember which one, started the discussion by saying they wanted to offer me the corporation's largest asset. They didn't say, 'Do you want to make a movie?' It was very corporate. There was a seriousness to it, and it was kind of naïve on my part because I didn't quite realize I'd be involved in the licensing and marketing, the Kenner toys, the McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Sears, you name it."
@@StevieStitches if you don't mind, I read Schumacher's interview from 1995, asswipe. You are such a hater. I don't believe in haters. Not every single one of them.
These early drafts of Batman Returns are fascinating. There's good elements in both, but like the first movie, it's fascinating how we got to the final film. I like most of the satirical elements already in Batman Returns, but I do recognize that Daniel Waters early drafts were way too self-aware and feel like his script for Demolition Man. Also, Bruce fainting and the villains' entering the Wayne Manor and Batcave is very reminiscent to what occurs in Batman Forever with Riddler and Two-Face. Great video guys!
Thanks for the comment! We replied in our latest episode: czcams.com/video/6c-PqfwdXxk/video.html
They are fascinating. They would've use that script and made this as a true sequel to Batman '89.
Two-Face was going to appear on the Batman '66 show in a story by Harlan Ellison. The show got canceled before it came to pass but it was adapted into comic form not long ago.
Clint Eastwood was lined up to play him too.
And he appeared in the Batman 66 universe finally voiced by William Shatner.
@@rosemaryfarell5264 as of Harry Callahan Clint Eastwood?
As a filmmaker, stuck in the madness of this pandemic, this podcast has saved my life.
Thank you for this. We reply to this comment at the end of our latest episode: czcams.com/video/4J2xfozwPDY/video.html
As a bi-racial, gender fluid, one legged Somalian pirate it's been great for me to.
The pandemic was depressed.
Me too.
I really wish they had stuck closer to Hamm’s draft. Maybe have Vicki killed off by the Penguin or Catwoman at some point. Also, I am not sure the home-invasion stuff works as a satisfying finale. Still, this was a good starting point and it is a shame that it was mostly scrapped.
I remember an old video back in the day after the first Batman movie came out. It was called “Batmania!” and it was the history of the character up until present day and I would watch that religiously. Anyway on the tape they talk about possible actors rumored to be the next villains in 1989 sequel. They had Robin Williams as The Riddler, Danny DeVito as Penguin and, lol and behold, singer/actress Cher as Catwoman! After hearing Sam Hamm’s description of Selina Kyle I realize this must have been a very serious casting consideration lol
That's right. Even Joel Schumacher wanted Robin Williams to play The Riddler and The Batchlers wrote it with him in mind before Jim Carrey was cast in Batman Forever. Yeah, that predates that.
I love this script,some very cool moments.
Your channel is great,now following you.
I’m surprised you only have 2K subscribers considering the quality of your work. Hopefully the Al Gore rhythm will be generous with you in the near future.
Thanks for your comment. We included it in Joker's Fireside Chat in our latest episode: czcams.com/video/x7i0gtLnF40/video.html
@@SuperHousePodcast thanks! I appreciate the hard work you do on these. After watching the *Sam Hamm Batman Returns* episode and the *Aronovsky Batman: Year One* episode, I really wish I could win the lottery to animate those scripts. While I agree that Catwoman and Penguin weren’t very developed in the Hamm script, imagining seeing that “Merry Christmas!” scene would have blown my mind in 1990/1. And I truly loved how everything made sense, was interconnected and paid off by the end (and you could easily bring Penguin back by saying he fell in an underground lake/river in the cave).
Keep up the good work!
I agree with Ben. The Sam Hamm script is miles better than not only the Daniel Waters script, but the actual finished movie, it’s a hot take but I don’t care.
Great look at those early drafts!
FYI, they did release a Robin figure with the Batman Returns line by Kenner, and it was the Tim Drake costume, but it was supposed to be for Marlon Wayans - - the figure's hair is sculpted to resemble a Black guy's, even though he's painted like a dark skinned White guy. Kenner was told that Robin was being cut from the movie right before the figures went into production. It was supposed to be a movie replica that got changed to a comic book replica at the last minute, because the molds were already made and those things cost $100's of $1000's, so they couldn't change the sculpt, only the paint job. Do an image search for "Kenner Batman Returns Robin figure", look at it and you can easily tell what it was supposed to be.
Thanks for the comment! You might be interested in checking out our coverage of the Kenner figures for the Burton films here: czcams.com/video/3GAgMTvATfU/video.html
Cool, thanks for the heads up! I just found your channel a few days ago, yo're doing some very solid work and I'm looking forward to checking out the rest. Hope you all had a great holiday!
I've heard that it was only an unsubstantiated rumor that the Robin figures were originally based on Marlon Wayans and then changed when he was removed from the movie.
I'm at 49:09... Isn't this kind of what happens in Forever?? Riddler and Two Face invade Wayne Manor, knock out Bruce and Alfred and kidnap Chase.
Yep. Another instance of foreshadowing in an unmade Batman script, though here, it was where the entire final act took place.
I like that scene. Jim Carrey and Tommy Lee Jones done that scene brilliantly.
@@SuperHousePodcast I read the final act.
I like how they skip the Grayson tragedy and we meet Dick a year or a few months after. He probably ran away from his foster home or never even got picked up and has been living on the streets. Whatever the case It adds to how horrible of a place Gotham and it shows a parallel to Bruce. Two kids whose families are murdered one gets to grow up in a mansion and the other is homeless.
Thanks for your comments. We replied in our latest episode: czcams.com/video/iJi1x9QCZmE/video.html
Well actually, The Batchlers and Joel Schumacher would use the circus origin in Batman Forever.
The first script was interesting! That second script... Interesting moments, but overall that would have been a bad movie
The first script by Sam Hamm was good, but when Burton fired Hamm, he had Daniel Waters and Wesley Strick to go horror film on this, and when Burton hired his friend Schumacher to direct the third film, they want to go back to the original Bob Kane comics.
Someone seriously needs to do an animated version of Sam Ham’s *Batman II*
I really like *Batman Returns,* but this is very much in line with *TAS*
1:05:00 a play on Punch and Judy no doubt.
1:11:02 not just that, but did a kid throw a rock into a _50 story window?!_ That kid better get a contract with a professional baseball team!
1:25:50 I don’t know how I feel about this. It’s an interesting twist… until you realize they just ripped off *Twins (1988)*
I’m perfectly fine with Hamm’s draft as-is. I’d rather have a story developing Bruce Wayne/Batman’s character than the villains, who pretty much serve to test Batman’s character.
Granted, one of the things I really love about *Batman Returns* is Danny DeVito and the penguin’s backstory and character development.
The Hamm script was so much better than the Waters one. The Waters script was just bad: bad characterizations, bad plot (of which there barely was one), bad dialogue, bad pacing, bad structuring. The only reason the movie is watchable is thanks to Burton's direction, Elfman's music, and the performances from the cast.
Just discovered the channel and love it! Quick question, idk if you all cover comic books or not but will you all be breaking down/reviewing the Batman 89 comic series coming up?
Be on the lookout soon ;)
That whole multiverse thing was terrible.
Shinja Tsukamoto should direct a Batman film , Takeshi Miike and Stephen Chow too
Quentin Tarantino and Kevin Smith for Batman. Also Robert Rodriguez.
I do like the fact that it this Robin is basically Jason Todd's backstory
Man I love these dee dives into the unproduced scripts. I read them all 20 yrs ago (you can buy anything at Comic-Con) and only now get to listen to in-depth conversations about them. The Hamm BR script was so gud, with a few less set pieces and more character dev, that would have been such a mighty sequel.
Thanks for this (and thanks for your recent patronage!). We addressed this comment in the latest episode: czcams.com/video/9ycoJRIf52c/video.html
@@SuperHousePodcast dude you guys rock! Love this cast.
They looked really good.
@@SuperHousePodcast that's true.
@@Sketchcraft really love those too.
Both Waters and Hamm share credit for the story, but Waters is solely credited for the screenplay.
I prefer Sam Hamm’s Batman Returns script. Sorry Waters sucks
That's right. I mean, I like BR, it's just that is too dark and scary for kids, though Michelle Pfeiffer did a fantastic job as Catwoman/Selina Kyle. And that leads for Val Kilmer to appear in BF, and that is a good thing.
For Penguin I think Joe Pesci or Bob Hoskins. For Catwoman i imagine someone like Talisa Soto, Robin I'd be risky and suggest Paul Rudd, he was doing tv at the time in 92/93 so maybe timeline could fit.
I think Bob Hoskins and Madonna would make a great duo
That's right. Michael Keaton would love to share scenes with Talisa Soto. For Robin, I would picture Edward Furlong in the role. I would picture Joe Pesci as Penguin, yes. I watched him in Lethal Weapon 2 with Mel Gibson and Danny Glover, and it was funny.
Great uploads.. I'm hoping you guys can find information for an episode on the Robert Patterson Batman movie.
Knox has a good heart a little bumbling but a good guy Batman’s Jimmy Olsen
Yeah, he was a good heart.
I would have kept Knox in all three movies, as Batman's secret partner. He'd do the detective work behind the scenes while Bats was kicking ass.
Lot of interesting ideas in the Hamm draft, though it sounds like it would have been rated R if they kept all the violence. Also interesting with the class warfare take on Catwoman, 20 years before The Dark Knight Rises did something similar.
Also, the Burton Batman may kill, but he doesn't murder/execute. Everyone he kills is in defense of himself or someone else. He doesn't kill anyone who has already been neutralized.
The final version of Batman Returns is so full of plot holes and logical inconsistencies, and Batman/Bruce is pretty much a supporting character, but it does have the deepest characterizations of Catwoman and Penguin. I've always thought that Batman Returns is a good Tim Burton movie, it's just not a very good Batman movie.
1:14:06 - I don't think Waters is criticizing the commercialization of Batman here. (Batman was created for commercialization, after all.) I think Waters is criticizing the commodification of ideals and real-life figures. Still a clumsily written line that Batman would never say.
I always liked the idea that the Wayne's weren't all good and some of his ancestors of even hid parents were criminals. In the Batman Telltale games it's revealed Thomas Wayne had criminal ties to Carmine Falcone and bankrolled their operation and was involved in money laundering. It adds another layer to Batman's war on crime that he has to make up for all the wrong the Wayne's have done.
It predates that.
To this day I lament the fact that we never received a true sequel to 1989's Batman. I can't believe those 89 Gotham City sets stood for a year before being pulled down. I would liked to have seen those sets redressed (and added to) for a winter setting.
I would have preferred to see the original batsuit and Wayne Manor returned as well.
I've tried to read the Sam Hamm Batman II script a few times but could never get further than about 25% of the way through. So much of it just felt weak to me, like Hamm was off his A-game. It's hard to believe the same guy wrote Batman.
I'm glad to hear (finally) a full synopsis of the script. Thank you, you make it sound a lot better than it read to me :)
That said, the Batman Returns script is even worse. The film just became too silly, too ridiculous. Batman 89 stuck just the right balance (minus the long barrelled Joker gun) between fantasy and realism for me.
Joker gun was kool
I think longer barrels increases accuracy for shooting at batwings. But I forget how long that barrel was. I liked it tho.
Besides, I like some story plot of the film involving Bruce's revenge. He realized that revenge has becoming his whole life. At the end of the film, he vow never kill again.
im such a big fan of yall page since watchin yall version of the script yall tell it fully like it's a movie we actually watchin while others tell half of it i wonder is this version is what they usin as well in matt reeves the batman film aswell far as concept with others
Thanks! We replied to your comment live at the end of our latest episode here: czcams.com/video/xsEfPLgYImA/video.html
How about mentioning connections to Batman when viewing the 1994 movie The Shadow, only because I heard one character is based off the other.
We actually go further than the 1994 movie and go into those similarities here: czcams.com/video/Mdapevnro74/video.html
There was another Shadow like character called The Bat
Did you say The Shadow?
Great video!
Why didn’t Batman stop in alt script after Selina fell out of the window
I did read the screenplay for Batman 2 and it's brilliant.
Kim Bassinger also had an affair with Prince. She even moved to Minneapolis after Batman 89 came out. If you listen to Scandalous from the soundtrack, that's her moaning on the record. She was supposed to star in and direct what became Graffiti Bridge, the sequel to Purple Rain
Bruce was talking about Vicki with Selina too
That's good.
Selina also studied shotokan
I see.
Damn. Eddie Furlong is an inspired choice for 91. Feel like an idiot never considering it before.
I'm surprised Daniel Waters gave you an interview after how much you ragged on his draft.
Why was Wesley Strick not credited as one of the writers?
Thank God that Robin didn't make it into either of the first two movies!
Tim Burton wanted Kiefer Sutherland to play Robin in the first film before the character was removed. Marlon Wayans was cast in Batman Returns before the character was removed again. And when Robin was finally appear in the films, he was played by Chris O'Donnell and I like the idea of Dick Grayson with a bigger family rather than a couple with a kid.
1:38.50 - Harvey Dent in the animated series is not black. There is a two part origin story in the series of Harvey turning into Two-Face and he is white.
I read that they based Harvey Dent’s look in TAS as an Italian American
So what u racist piece of 💩
No man, he’s black
@@hairsprayguy84 jes, you yanks are obsessed with race. What a backward country. He's obviously white, unless you're Stevie wonder, but looking at ya you look like a hill Billy boy. That red hair and pale skin you ain't a native.
@@wyattmcgee1 czcams.com/video/h4TM6kX9dW0/video.html aye, as black as snow 🌨 if ya say so big lad.
They should of wrote that in the final script
Yes animated 90s batman series is drawn to be a light skin black guy u can tell by the features hes the only MALE character drawn with a low hair cut wider nose and full lips..i always thought he was black too
That's odd.
@@evanzaremba4722 odd choice of words but sure lol
Joe Pesci would’ve been a perfect penguin
Bob Hoskins
That’s what I always thought. Pesci
Joe Pesci, he's funny. Watched him in the Lethal Weapon movies.
@@mtd1089 don't forget John Candy?
@@HardestTargett anything you need, Leo Getz, you get it?
The whole thing with the 4 familes contracting jack napier to kill bruces parents remind me heavily of how in the telltale batman universe falcone had em killed as well
This sounds like it may have been even better
That's right.
They would use the “F” Word
There's no fuck in the Batman movies.
That last part was funny
Yup!
Cher was up. For catwoman
She would have been better as Clayface
LOL
Cher as Catwoman would be perfect.
Punch and Judy = Punch an Julie
Or Adam and Eve.
Eurasian could be Russian Kazar tartar too
How about Italian.
Vickie would be nice
Yes.
Why did he take off his cowl
@Phillip hanna yeah but why did he take off his cowl in the alternate script in front of Robin
@Phillip hanna personal?
I watched that scene which he takes off his cowl.
A Roose maybe
And an eggnog.
Ok
That's a huge gap.
Why did the release a white Robin Action Figure In the Batman Returns ToyLine
Batman Forever he was good
Yes. Tommy Lee Jones was an amazing Two-Face.
damn this version wouldve been way better than tim burton's to me catwoman in tim burton version didnt have no devolopement just only the suit what made her look good damn DC fucked up in returns alot
The hello Miss Kitty dialogue being repeated twice is key and the ex bf’s telephone message
That led for Tim Burton to hire his friend Joel Schumacher to direct the third film.
fucking love these deep dives ...
Me too.
LOL that’s funny AL is funny LOL
It is.
Cat litter
The first script was fantastic. That second one was absolutely terrible. My opinion may be unpopular but Batman and Batman Returns are not very good Batman movies. And listening to these podcasts, I realize it’s because Tim Burton never really cared for any of the source material in the way Sam Hamm did. Shame to know now what we could have gotten back then.
@Brandon Brooks well. I guess I do care and I’m glad there are superior alternatives in the dark knight trilogy.
@Brandon Brooks so you’re catching a bitch fit because I don’t like the movies you like? Sit the fuck down and grow the fuck up.
@Brandon Brooks I stated no reasoning. I didn’t even ask anyone what they thought. Including you. You decided to comment on my comment. You’re not educating me on anything because you’re telling me anything I already don’t know. Do you think you’re the only one who reads comics? No. You’re not. Burton didn’t get any of the characterizations right with the exception of Joker. You can change details and still remain true to the characterization of a character. It’s what helps these characters be rebooted and reinterpreted. Because details change. And the details have to change to introduce something new or different. I don’t like those details or the characterizations for movies that you like and you went into a rant.
@Brandon Brooks so again. Sit the fuck down and grow the fuck up. Because if you don’t care, stop writing essays.
@Brandon Brooks dude. Are you that insecure with yourself that you have to keep trying to insult me because I don’t like what you like? I don’t like what you love. Why do you keep trying to convince me to? And then you like your own comments like an egomaniac.
No way! Anthony Hopkins should have been the Penguin! Or maybe Ian Holm. I always wish Donald Pleasence would have been the Penguin. Tim Burton fucked up Batman.
No you did
DeVito is a great American actor
And as a director , quite similar to Tim Burton But darker
Hey! It's not his fault. He tries to make a good story, but it backfires.
@@Reprodestruxion that's right. He and Schwarzenegger are great.
Fetch
Tim Burton saves this movie I like the first script but the ending was weak Batman can’t get married
He’s getting married in the comics
@@hairsprayguy84 it don’t work
Alfred can’t live forever and Selina can teach him Street smarts
He really made the film the way it is.