What Does Star Trek Actually Say About Religion?
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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▶Chapters
0:00 - Introduction: Of Gods and Wannabes
05:54 - Assessing "Accession"
16:59 - Ferengi Religion: Love of Money is the Root of All Money
18:24 - Reading "Who Watches the Watchers"
30:59 - Picard Contemplates Eternity
35:42 - Other Examples of Religion in Star Trek
40:09 - Conclusion: What DOES Star Trek Actually Say About Religion?
42:45 - Shoutouts, Plugs, and Announcements - Zábava
"The Prophets sent him back to his own time" is just what Sisko told everyone. Really Sisko just took the dude into space and pushed him out the airlock.
A season or two later he manipulated the Romulans…so that idea of him manipulating the “unintelligent” Bajorans is not hard to imagine at all :)
History is written by the *victors*
@@andrwblood9162 Remember, that's supposed to be read _as a warning._
I like the way you think. ;)
(Though IIRC Kira did mention that she suddenly could remember another poem that he'd written on his return.)
Either way, the prophets are all K, here's your old spacetime place, and eject him from the wormhole... His light ship is still on DS9 though so.. uh.. have fun with that.
Growing up in a Religious Star Trek family, My take on Star Trek and Religion was that religious practices and traditions must always be evaluated in their purpose and each religion might hold a aspect of ultimate truth: the nature of existence. My favorite Picard quote about God was when he meets Q in the afterlife. Picard: "No, i am not dead because i refuse to believe that the afterlife is run by you. The Universe is not so badly designed!" that was up there with what dose God need with a Starship for me growing up.
To me it always seemed like religion still exists, but is personal matter. And most stories are about space anomalies and aliens and malfunctioning holodecks, which is unrelated to religion, so why force it in the plot.
Star Trek V has THE quintessential McCoy moment as well. When the "God" being attacks Kirk and Spock, the being then asks McCoy if he doubts him. McCoy's brave reply is, "I doubt any God that inflicts pain for his own pleasure." That blew my little western religion-inculcated mind when I was a kid!
Reminds me of Stephen Fry's remark in an interview with some priest: "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?"
Yeah, who is it again that likes the smell of burnt flesh?
@@robertmiller9735: Everyone who owns a grill?
The God of the Old Testament is, without a doubt, the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, petty, unjust, a relentless controller, a vengeful ethnic cleaner thirsty for blood, a misogynist, homophobe, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniac, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully
@@isidoreaerys8745 He reflects the needs of the people. The Jews lived in a hostile area where the strong conquered the weak on a regular basis, so they needed a deity that embodied the strength and militancy they needed to obtain land and fend off invaders. The unwritten law of the world was essentially "Might makes right".
Early Christians, on the other hand, couldn't afford to be divided nor could they afford to make new enemies among those they needed to convert, so their version of God embraced compassion. This allowed the young faith to survive and grow in times of persecution until Emperor Constantine made the religion the official religion of the same empire that tried to eradicate them.
"What does God need with a starship?" is definitely a quintessential Kirk line. But for my money, Kirk's rebuff of Sybok in the same film, culminating in "I need my pain!" is probably the Kirkiest Kirk we ever get...and in my opinion is worth all of the silliness through the rest of the film.
💯
Oh definitely! Despite Star Trek V being considered the worst of the original series movies (and overall I agree with that) it has some great moments. The "I need my pain!" is a fantastic speech.
The scene of them confronting their pain is basically the one good scene in the movie, and it was in spite of Shatner's directing and not because of it since he wanted Sybok to actually brainwash Spock and McCoy and turn them against Kirk. But Nimoy and Kelley fought hard against that and got their way.
In the TOS episode Who Mourns for Adonis, when responding to a claim of the reality of the Greco-Roman pantheon, he responds about the gods : "We find the one to be sufficient." Seemingly rejecting only pantheistic religion in favor of monotheism, and contextually supporting Judeo-Christian faith. But is was broadcast television in 1960s America. NBC standards and practices may have directed that be out in And in Bread and Circuses, an even more blatant endorsement of Christianity specifically was presented by Uhura when she realized the oppressed slaves on the planet were not "Sun worshippers" but worshippers of "The Son". The most clear in world evidence of real world religion in at least the original series universe .
Agreed Captain
My favorite Trek commentary on religion comes from Enterprise. In the three episode arc where T'Pol and Archer go to Vulcan to find T'Pau, she tells Archer how Surak's teachings were misinterpreted and manipulated by those in power to keep the population in check. He smirks, and T'Pol accuses him of making making light of the subject. He simply says "It sounds familiar". Great episode, Steve!
Enterprise was flawed. But it had a lot of decent moments like that one that made it all worth watching.
I always thought Sisko telling Jake about respecting others religious belief doesn't mean believing it, and that we can find mutual ground even if you believe in worm hole aliens as gods. That was one of the most memorable exchanges from DS9 for me.
I'm a full-fledged Christian and I veiw organized religion, especially my own with a strong sense of suspension. There is no easier way to control a group of people than to control their faith. As I come from Harlan County I learned that lesson well.
I am ok with faith as a therapy for people, but it shouldn't be a way of life. There's a GOOD reason America isn't a Theocracy.
@@jefft5152 America isn't a theocracy? You guys have got the rest of the world fooled! ;)
I know VOY gets little love round these parts, but I was still hoping for mention of "Mortal Coil," in which Neelix gets killed proper by a power surge, only to be "repaired" by Seven's nanothingys. Neelix reports that, while dead, he felt nothing, where his cultural background had assured him of a specifically-described afterlife, and his entire worldview collapses. The final scene is unexpectedly lovely and moving.
"Monsters in the replicator? Who else on this ship is qualified to handle that?"
That is a great episode regarding religious belief systems. Unfortunately, Neelix is an underrated and often overlooked character. Neelix being easily the most optimistic character in Voyager (maybe all of Star Trek) ironically dealt with some of the worst circumstances, subjects, and tragedies.
I loved that episode as it went the opposite direction to dealing with the afterlife, there being oblivion. Normally they put the character into their preferred afterlife but it’s always a question that they may just be imagining everything like the whole barge of the dead thing that B’ellana went through.
Doesn't someone suggest that he didn't see the afterlife because his gods knew he'd be brought back and didn't collect his spirit?
Kira: "No, listen to me. I know, to Starfleet, the Prophets are nothing more than wormhole aliens. But to me, they're gods. I can't prove it. Then again, I don't have to; because my faith in them is enough - just as Weyoun's faith in you... was enough for him." one of the best lines about Religion and faith and how it should be personal
Okay so I don't know about that
But - emergent properties fertility goddess because we all get fucked
Like if you look at all the emergent properties of the universe and then you put them all together it gives you a mosaic of what would be a fertility artist/goddess
Like the body of the universe is its own body
I don't know I feel like the one with the the bajorans is more, easy to disprove
Like someone can talk with the wormhole gods, it seems like they're wormhole is a fork in the road where they can start going parallel with you or push you into their zone
Gatekeepers
The wormhole aliens are real though.
@@user-jr7vc9dp7u That's not being debated. What's up for discussion is if they're gods or just super advanced inter-dimensional beings. Kira says yes. Most of Starfleet says no. There is no definitive answer and arguments for both theories, which is why this is such a good portrayal.
@@christiegreenwood2642 Good portrayal of what?
"I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm puzzled by one who takes attendance." -- Amy Farrah Fowler
I love that quote!
Nice quote from a horrible person... Crunchy mom
The line “What does God need with a starship?” Was the only thing good to come out of that movie.
Not a fan of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat"? 🤣
I think you need some marshmelons.
One episode you didn't look at was Voyager's "Blink of an Eye", which says quite a bit about religion. It is complementary to "Who watches the watchers", because it lets play out the development of an entire civilization based on worshiping the starship Voyager as a goddess. In the end, that turns out to have lots of positive effects on that civilization. So, kind of an interesting spin on the concept.
“You are not God! The universe is not so poorly designed!”
I just finished this episode a few days ago. Loved it's take on "A Christmas Carol."
Q is like that uncle who hands out home made fireworks just because kids should have fun.
"Okay kids, I'm dividing you into three teams. Team 1 gets the jar of peanut butter, Team 2 gets a loaf of bread, and Team 3 gets the knives. Figure the rest out for yourself."
@@theevilascotcompany9255 who needs team 2 and 3 when you are on team 1 and have your hands and fingers. ;)
@@theevilascotcompany9255 Team 2 will have problems in a fight, but Team 3 will have to do so much in the cooperative sandwich making operation. They have to slice up the bread, spread the pb and hold up a store for jam! That is a lot.
I always found it interesting that the Bajorans just accepted Sisko's explanation of what happened in the wormhole at the end of Accession. "Yep. The prophets said I'm the emissary and they sent that other dude back to his own time. I totally didn't just beam him out mid-transit. Two emissaries enter the wormhole! One emissary leaves! Who rules Bartertown? Probably the Ferengi. What was I talking about? Oh yeah, I'm the Emissary again. kthxbai."
They did have the additional poetry to confirm
They accepted it because it was convenient.
They weren't happy about Akorem turning back the clock and realised that Sisko rarely interfered with their lives.
@@jewishautisticnerd3874 To be clear in the origianl timeline Laan's The Call of the Prophets was an unfinished work, but in the new timeline Sisko is reading the finished version and Kira is surprised that she can remember it was unfinished. So yeah hard for Sisko to fake all that.
@@allanolley4874 Not at all. Sisko simply had to slingshot himself around a star, travel back in time, and finish that poem himself. Easy peasy.
@@johngingras Good point I did not think of that...
i just realized that "who watches the watchers" is basically a dramatization of aspects of the ancient aliens theory
I remember a big fight I watched in a major Brazilian Trek forum a long time, a guy just asked "what do you people think about the episode" Who Mourns for Adonais"? ".
People started sharing their thoughts just to get really rude responses by the author of the post saying that any kind of religious representation is bad, Star Trek need to be anti religion because religion kills people so a episode showing Greek gods is wrong to exist.
So people asked his opinion on the fact that DS9 could not exists without the religious element, and his response was something like "the Bajorians are aliens so their religion isn't really related to the bad bad human religion so they're OK"
I really think the guy just needed a hug...
Because there is absolutely no way at all that the Bajoran religion could be allegorical in any way 🥸
I like DS9's exploration of religion in its good and bad aspects, like every other facet of life. And I like Pike's private religiosity in Discovery. e: thought of something I wanted to mention. Weyoun and Wynn meet at one point and he's trying the Vorta charm offensive. He says, "I think we're very much alike" and she does the eargrab thing and then says "'No. No, we're nothing alike" and leaves him kind of baffled. She's trying to insult him but - she's right. Because his religious beliefs - imposed, artificial, brutally constricting and oppressive - are at least *sincere*. He places his gods above himself. She'd never do the same.
Huh… that’s a really interesting point!!
On this subject, a classic Picard episode where healthy skepticism helps everyone arrive at the truth was in "Devil's Due". Picard's best line in that episode being, "You mean to tell me Ardra never even picked up one piece of trash?" A photoshopped version of his hand gesture at that moment then became a profanity-laced meme.
My favorite episode.
Yes a great analogy to our why can't God make anything that man can?
I remember being really impressed by the way Picard spoke about his own belief in the afterlife as a basically agnostic one, but it was clear that his belief was informed by his personal feelings about it.
Always remember a Farscape quote "Religions are grand lofty ideas, religious followers, that's something else."
Nice One!
I don't think religion will ever truly disappear from humanity, and I say this as an atheist. Religion "scratches an itch" that the vast majority of people have, this need to have *some* kind of explanation for the unknown and mysterious, and a promise of eventual vindication and a reward for those whose lives involve endless, unjust suffering. Nothing else really fills that hole.
I agree but I can't wait till it's taken as seriously as ASTROLOGY at least.
Roddenberry's concept of God was played by John De Lancie.
@jdslyman hands down best q episode
Kirk's view of God is to punch him until he gets off the high chair and let him be the Almighty where he does nothing but sex with alien babes and punch stuff until HE wants it to work.
There's a great little thread that runs through Year Of Hell that I think is the CLOSEST thing we get to confirmation that some kind of deity exists in Star Trek. And... now I think about it more... it kind of explains some inconsistencies the franchise has with time travel.
So, Annorax believed that "Time" is an actual entity, and that for his constant messing around with the timeline, he was being punished. Sounds like the ramblings of a madman. BUUUUT... at the end of the episode, when his ship is exploding, he gets to his ready room just in time (lol) to see the only thing he has left of his wife, a lock of hair, disappear forever. If Time could give someone the finger, that's about how I'd expect it to do it. However, at the end, when Time has been reset, things don't play out the same way as before. Instead of building his timeship, he puts down his research and spends the day with his wife instead. Crisis averted. Happy ending. Tea and cake for all. Time literally gives him a second chance at happiness.
If you think just about EVERY time travel story in Star Trek ends either in a complete reset (The Visitor) or in some specific chain of events that have very little impact (Gabriel Bell looking suspiciously like Starfleet's best captain, or that the Romulan in charge of the Klingon civil war happened to be the daughter of Tasha Yar) and the stories that DO have lingering impact spin off a whole new timeline (Kelvin) then it kind of seems like Time has some idea of what it wants to happen and is perfectly happy to steer events along its Divine Plan.
Did that make any sense or am I just rambling?
It made sense. But I do disagree about something. I don't think Tasha Yar's daughter is an example of time travel having very little impact. It is entirely possible that events played out as they did because of the machinations of Sela. We'll never get confirmation one way or the other but Sela did allude to events happening as they were because Picard sent her mother back in time.
Makes sense, my ambivalence to religion doesn’t really predispose me to describe the deus ex machina of the shows as religious phenomena.
Wormhole aliens though are explicitly acknowledged as religious events.
I believe you have a very good case for your thesis. It is certainly a good in-universe explanation.
Outside the blessed Star Trek cannon, it is interesting that we talk about if a god or gods exist in Star Trek, when the existence of this creative endeavor truly does have a god: the writers.
Need Picard to act out of character in First Contact? No worries, the blessed Braga will just harden his heart. Need to save Picard from a degenerative disease introduced in the series finale? Fear not, Christos Chabon will resurrect him with a new body.
I'm all for the fictional exploring the morality of mankind. Philosophers have been using such stories to expand our understanding of humanity long before the Ring of Gyges. That is why it is so important to understand that the gods of our time are no different than the gods of civilizations long gone - a good story.
Annorax's belief that time was an entity whose nature dictates the passings and goings of our intrepid crew may be a canonicalization of the will of the writer, much like the One Above/Below All within the Marvel comic book universe. But in the end, the final project is so much more. The explorations of religion within Star Trek are the struggles of a multitude of Platos asking if humanity needs to create another god.
...Or, if we can finally see a future where we can stand in awe of this Universe for what it is.
Hope that Steve talks about this in his next 'not actually Trek actually' episode.
“Who Watches the Watchers” was my first episode of Star Trek that I ever saw. It blew my little kid mind. It’s still one of my favorite episode.
Your dialogue is so fun.
I live for Steve's dialogue
The holographic duck blind failing in "Who Watches the Watchers" is also a criticism of our over-reliance on advanced tech, when simpler methods would be more reliable. You can see one recent example of this in Tesla car doors that potentially lock passengers in a wrecked vehicle, since everything in a Tesla is electronically controlled, with no manual backup.
Holographic duck blind failing in "Who Watches the Watchers": "Hmm, maybe we shouldn't spy on civilisations like this? Nahh, that was just a fluke; this won't go wrong again."
Star Trek: Insurrection: "Helllooooooooooo!"
I really enjoyed your commentary. As a religious person myself, I believe that nuance conversations over religious beliefs are incredibly important especially today. I get annoyed with people who sum up religion as all good, or all bad.
Also, my sister is currently attending a seminary, and is taking a course examining Science Fiction and religion. Her class dedicated a whole unit to Star Trek’s commentary on religion. I’ll be sharing this video with her. I’m sure she’ll enjoy it! Awesome video!
I’d also point this out: Many of us don’t wear our religion on our sleeves. Chances are, atheists know far more religious or spiritual folk than they think they know-because the rest of us are religious in private and we don’t make a huge show of our worship or what we believe in. And, yes, of course we’re capable of being rational folks who also believe in science. Just try talking to some actual scientists sometime - they can be some of the most deeply spiritual people you’ll ever know because their research has given them a more intimate look at nature and how it works, and it’s given them a greater appreciation of what our world is and our place in it.
@@ElizaHamilton1780 While there certainly are atheists that proselytize, as an atheist I can say I definitely do not do that. I strongly believe that religion is a private matter. I would even go out on a limb and say that's most atheists, and you just have confirmation bias against them.
@@ElizaHamilton1780 what's RATIONAL about believing in a supernatural deity?
Why can't you accept reality for what it is.?
@@averagejacobinsubscriber well, religious people totally disagree with you 🙄
They can't keep their bronze age mythology to themselves. That's the greatest problem we atheists have.
@@pdcdesign9632 bad faith question is in bad faith
I've always loved how Star Trek tends to approach religion from a rational place, never actually being openly against religion itself but definitely against the more fanatical side of it.
I think of that Bajoran monk every time I hear a Christian apologist ask "if you don't have God as an absolute moral authority what stops you from murdering people?"
Of "God" tells you to kill someone, it isn't murder. Or so they say.
I always hate that particular question, because the obvious answer is "I already murder just as much as I want to, as much as any healthy person should want to - zero."
As a Quaker myself if a Christian would murder someone if not for God, you probably don't get the point.
Who mourns for a Bajoran monk?
An argument I read in a book titled "Ethics Without God" by Kai Nielsen asked if you found out unequivocally that there was no god, would you still love your children/parents. Some have actually said "No" to me.
One of the things I thought was kind of interesting when it came to the Ferengi belief/religion was that episode where Nog was trying to explain to O'Brien about the Great Material Continuum and how in order to get what you want you sometimes have to make a various trades and deals while trusting in it to lead you to what you are eventually looking for. How he explained it, with such passion which I am sure came more from the performance from Aron Eisenberg, always reminded me of how some religious leaders would try to convince you that having faith and believing would always lead you to great things. O'Brien's reactions is how I see others on the outside of those faiths trying to make sense of it while trying not to pull their hair out in the process.
It's over of my favourite religious moments in all of _Star Trek._ It's a shame that bit of spiritual lore wasn't introduced until the last season, because to me it really made the Ferengi feel a lot more real.
for me it perfectly describes how we change gods and in the forengi case it is a very intelligent way of saying that for some capitalism itself is a god, we blindly tie ourselves to beliefs because they give us stability.
Sacred Ground from Voyager season 3 is one of my favorites concerning science and spirituality. The doctor's technobabble about what Janeway went through was a sound explanation. At the same time, you can see on Janeway's face at the end that it didn't adequately describe her experience with the Nechani ritual. Also fascinating to see Chakotay, the crew's most spiritual member, showing the most skepticism about the ritual. That kind of thing happens often when two belief systems collide.
If anybody's going to kill the crew of my ship, it's going to be me!
That's the Jane-Way!
I'd just like to say the actress who played kai Wynn did an amazing job in the role cause she played such a villainous character that I hated kai Wynn. Just to clarify I disliked the character which I think you are supposed to do and not the actress I think she did a phenomenal job in the role.
Well, Louise Fletcher also played Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, so she definitely knew how to have "loathsome", "unscrupulous", and "villainous" on lock.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Fletcher
So Often You See Villains Receive A "Redemption Through Death" End To Their Characters.
Legate Damar's I liked, Kai Winn's, Not So Much.
My favorite episode of Star Trek was the episode of Kirk and the gang going to a planet like earth that had gladiatorial fights aired on TV. The best gladiator refused to fight due to his new found faith saying that he should not kill.
It was a good episode as it points to the inner struggle people may face. Do you go against your faith's teachings or your conscience to fit in or for your well-being? This showed we are better for sticking with our convictions on what is right than to betray them.
His refusal to kill jeopardized his life but ment he had a clean conscience, and that is worth dieing for.
This is one of the times it painted faith in a very positive light and actually argued for it.
His new found Christian faith. Uhura:… Not the sun god but the Son of god”
Kirk : Caesar - and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading... only now.
Liked this one. Also an atheist and have listened for years. Big ST fan and I speak Klingon. I liked the religious discussion. I have heard fans in the past who love the show say stuff about how anti Christian or anti religious it is. While others think it is totally religious and even a cult. No critical thinking going on. On one religious radio show they even call Klingon demonic beings. Can't think beyond their own tiny world view.
I'm not sure this was a "religious" experience, but the other night the sky was exceptionally clear and I could see the Andromeda galaxy with a pair of binoculars. A quick google showed that the light I was seeing from this galaxy probably left there when the earliest ancestor of humanity which bears even some similarity to us was first emerging. It was amazing to get a glimpse of light which was about 2.5 million years old.
Hey Steve Shives. You probably don't read the comments from older episodes... But wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your content. The heart shows in everything you do, and I am always happy to get a notification about a new video. Keep the faith, Brother. ^_^
It wasn’t until the end of the video that I realized this:
It’s perfectly fine to not believe in any kind of religion, as you said. But you really will have to keep your eyes open and be sure that you don’t dismiss things you can’t explain and write them off as “they don’t exist because I can’t explain why this is what it is.”
The thing is, if we’re going to reach the stars and travel through space, I’m pretty sure we’re going to encounter a lot that we cannot explain with science-because it hasn’t been developed far enough to integrate this new stuff into the body of scientific knowledge that we have. It will be important to continue to explore and investigate and grow that body of knowledge as humanity encounters new things. And remember: This universe, and everything in it, doesn’t exist to make anyone comfortable. It isn’t here to boost anyone’s egos and confirm, to them, what they already know or think they know.
I agree mostly with your post but let's not call that which don't yet understand a God.
Have you ever heard about THE GOD OF THE GAPS.?
It'll certainly be a long road, getting to there from here.
The issue with explaining phenomena not yet explained by science with religious or superstitious explanations is that the discovery too often stops at that point. There will be things that we haven't developed far enough to explain with research and experimentation. The only honest answer at that point won't be "God did it". The answer will be "I don't know; let's find out".
This is definitely one of your best Trek, Actually videos yet!
Kinda a shame you didn't mention the only pro-religion TOS episode; "Bread and Circuses"
Amen
Not the sun god but the “son of god.”
I was curious if he would mention this episode myself.
How could you skip this one? And it was written by Roddenberry and Coon!
I just watched this video for the first time and also wondered how he completely skipped over the one episode that flat out says we’re talking about Christianity specifically and puts Christianity in such a positive light that Kirk says with a smile on his face that it would be something to watch and be a part of to see Christianity replace this plant’s version of the Roman Empire all over again.
The Hindu festival of lights, which is in October, was celebrated on TNG but just not showing and on Enterprises doctor Phlox went to mass at the Vatican city. So Star Trek did talk about real would religions just not that much.
Really Plox when to the Vatican? What episode was that?
Balance of Terror starts with a wedding in the chapel.
Religion is there, but not the center of the series.
Kirk’s comment of “What does God need of a starship” along with Picard’s treatment of Q leads me to believe that Starfleet’s “official” stance on Religion is “Seen it…not impressed”
Picard met Q, Kirk met Trelane - both knew what nigh-omnipotent beings were capable of first-hand, so some deity that needs you for something it wants always comes off… questionable, to say the least. 😀
Or, that it is complicated. Troi in WWTW says a famous line that has several readings: "That's the trouble with believing in a supernatural being, trying to determine what he wants." She doesn't say *don't believe*, she rather says (in the weak reading) "have epistemic humility!" It reminds me of Descartes' (!!) saying that "by all means, pray, but only pray for what god would have done anyway."
Accession is a great episode because as far as anybody on Bajor knows, Sisko and a few others simply fly into the Wormhole and Akoram Laan strangely disappears. And once again Sisko is the uncontested emissary. Nobody asks any questions and there is no follow up story. Even Jake doesn't write an article about it. I love how everybody on Bajor thinks this is a legit system.
In the original timeline Akorem Laan never finished "The Call of the Prophets", but after this incident The Call of the Prophets is a finished work and Kira can remember it as being unfinished, assuming everyone on Bajor and environs has a similar double memory then they know for sure what happened to Laan. Even if they don't and people only remember the new timeline probably Laan left a body on Bajor and his grave site his probably a well known location well remembered by people in the new timeline. This could provide evidence that Laan died of natural causes in the past rather than Sisko pushing Laan out an airlock or something.
Surprised you didn’t mention Who Mourns Adonaus, where Kirk looks at a god and tells him humanity has outgrown him
And earlier in the episode, Kirk nearly throws away the line "Mankind has no need of 'gods'. We find the One quite sufficient."
I feel like one thing that may have been worth bringing up on the topic of cults would have been DS9 Season 2's "Sanctuary", which was very much a cult of personality around the character of Alixus, even if the population didn't believe they had an option of leaving (which, let's face it, often people within cults don't). This, in particular, is interesting because it's a secular version of a cult, where no "worship" is involved, but the philosophy of "don't blindly follow" is very much on topic, and even contrasted by O'Brien's willful but intelligent subservience to Sisko.
Don't forget that Richard Daystrom invented the M5 computer that was "religious" too. The computer had a moral compass according to "the laws of God and man". That also says something about Star Trek's views on religion.
I always got a kick out of how Liko does his earnest to salvage “Palmer” in WWTW. I wonder if the botched memory wipe somehow freed him from Bob, too. I’d like to imagine so.
Right? I always figured that the choice of name had to be a little easter egg for the Twin Peaks fans. On a side note, I worked on a recent animated horror movie that starred both Mr. Wise and Mr. Shatner! (I didn't get to meet either of them, unfortunately.)
Always makes my day when you drop a long one, Steve.
Good video. I love the line, "What does God need with a starship?". I would like it if more people would be willing to exercise the reasoning behind the question. "What does God need with a....?" religious building, tithe, ritual, prayer, person speaking at a podium telling you what God wants, etc. An omnipotent God would need nothing physical from us as his omnipotence would already be imposed on everything, not requiring any input on our end to transpire. I have not had any person belonging to an institutionalized religion ever be able to answer that question without breaking the premise that God is omnipotent, all knowing.
It seems like most of all, Star Trek teaches us to not have 'blind faith'. Mostly in religions, especially organized religions, but really any institution.
Great video! A lot of time and research went into this, very well done! Probably one of the best you have ever done.
I'm not even 3 and a half minutes in and thinking about Riker telling Ensign Ro Laren to take her earring off
So it's easy to say "the future is better without religion X" when it's a huge religion with many nations who practice it. Take away Christianity and there will still be all those nations who have Christianity as their major religion. They even still seemingly celebrate Christmas judging by Picard's Nexus hallucination. But I think it's less fair when you look at minority groups who have a strong tie to a religion like Jews or Sikhs who would just no longer exist apparently. Certainly I believe in the ability of Jewish to still identify themselves as Jews without religion (I myself am an Athiest Jew) but most of society doesn't see it that way, indeed some people get very upset when you try to talk about Jewishness in a secular or athiest capacity (and I don't just mean religious jews, plenty of non Jews get very upset by this as well). So it kind of hurts to not see anyone Jewish in Star Trek when it's supposed to be all about IDIC and Jews have very specifically been persecuted because of said beliefs. The answer shouldn't be "we dump our religion" it should be "out religion stops being a point of prejudice against us."
Part of the reason why this has happened, of course is because Jewishness is seen as a religious belief. There certainly have been characters who could have been Jewish based on their names like Dr. Zimmerman or Lt. Levy (though I certainly hope he's not). I'm not even saying that a character has to be wearing a Kippah star of david, but something like Eddington's lucky looney speech that gave him a Canadian ancestry could be mentioned.
A fare and well discussed video. One of my favorites, well done!
Great episode. I really appreciated you taking a look at the complexity in the content here.
Babylon 5 was pretty cool
I'd like to see more deep, nuanced, and realistic analysis of religion in futuristic science fiction. I don't much care if they presuppose that religion is true or that it is false so long as they are thoughtful about it.
As always - I enjoy hearing your perspective on things. Interesting subject.
Another great video, Steve. Keep up the good work.
"More than just rejecting religion is necessary for curing society's ills." A point the Dawkbros and dictionary atheists of the "New Atheist" ( * eyeroll *) movement missed by several lightyears. Ah, Steve, remember the "deep rifts"?
I find that somewhat ironic coming from Gozer. I mean, wouldn't someone like Shandor rather prove the "Dawkbros" point about the danger religious zeal poses to society and the need to actively oppose it?
I have never heard of anyone ever-including Dawkins, problematic as he often is-claiming that religion is the sole problem. I have heard lots of religious apologists claim atheists claim that though. I for one am not interested in eliminating religion as it's plainly impossible to do so. Taking away religion's real-world power should suffice.
True rejecting religion would not cure all the world's ills but it would be an excellent start. Anytime anyone believes they are exempt from the consequences of their actions because of a set of beliefs they are headed down a dark path.
The only thing that truly bugged me about bajor is how verdant it was. Considering it was supposed to be a bombed out bad neighborhood all of the scenes on the planet made it look like a resort in Hawaii. Course then again TOS would show a orange/brown planet from space that looked like you couldn't even breathe it's atmosphere but be like "Captain thrackeon V is an M class planet"
This was copied from Babylon 5. But in B5, the supressed and occupied religious world of ex-farmers was a toxic wasteland due to the strip-mining and toxic waste dumping.
Criticising capitalists inside the Hollywood system is usually hidden, so it's disguised as religious freedom instead of actual freedom.
I love this take. Especially the breakdown of Picard. That's how I feel about it too. If there's nothing else that's fine, and I have zero evidence that there is anything else after death. But there is still a lot we don't understand so, maybe...?
Anyway, great essay as usual Steve. Looking forward to the next one.
Thank you for pointing out what that Vulcans have is religion. It feels like people don't want to acknowledge that. I can undestand why--as an atheist and HUGE Spock fan it can feel a little weird to think about how religious he is....but only if you force it into a real world context. When you remember that they do have evidence for their beliefs, as you pointed out with the katra, it all makes sense again.
Also, I don't think I'll ever get over how the Klingons killed their gods in their legends. So badass.
I mean, to be fair, a lot of human religions have elements that are factual. Just speaking for mine, while we have a lot of stuff that can't be backed up as having really happened, apart of our religious texts are historical records that absolutely can be verified (albeit with drift or cultural bias involved). One of our most recognized holidays is tied to a historic event that is verified as having occurred.
I love your work, Steve. This is a great video.
This is a great analysis, Steve. Star Trek, for me, has always been about asking important questions and provoking intelligent thought. Really enjoyed this video.
I love a good long Steve video citing many examples. 👏
You have some of the best lines... "Plan B: Spacing Wesley" solid latimum!
When you said "According to these readings, I am... dead?" I laughed so hard I had a coughing fit. You are awesome, man 🖖
That joke was so obvious I'm actually surprised Steve didn't do something else, just to subvert expectation.
The Enterprise episode "Cold Front" does give us confirmation that Earth religions still exist.
I think if any character sums up Star Trek's view on religion, it would have to be Captain Archer, trying to keep an "open mind," but immediately pointing out when a religious group is being misguided or hypocritical.
Gonna have to rewatch this episode now. I could have sworn the guest Emissary was not an Emissary from the past, but a dude who decided his time slip qualified him for the gig.
Yeah I have watched it recently and that is essentially the case. He was technically the first in linear time to meet the profits, but that doesn't matter to the prophets because they are outside of time, to them The Sisko will always be the first.
Loved the ending! :-D
I have a hard time taking too much issue with religious beliefs that are held by oppressed peoples, especially when used to assert an identity and provide a framework for striving toward liberation. To me, the Bajorans are the most interesting of the alien cultures in Star Trek, and it's worth emphasizing that their religious beliefs aren't just an incidental world-building detail added because it's fun to conceptualize alien religions. It is inextricably linked to their oppression and the struggle against it. Star Trek shows us how myth and ritual really can become a vital source of personal and community strength to people in such circumstances. Major Kira would not be the revolutionary she is without her faith.
And, as a jaded atheist and recovering evangelical Christian, I also know how easy it is to co-opt, exploit, and manipulate those ideologies in favor of the status quo. I don't know where that leaves us as far as religion goes. But I think maybe it's more of a symptom than a disease, and the best way to dismantle irrational spiritual beliefs is by building a better world for everyone.
Q is a bit of a complex subject though, Steve. If we were to pull out the classic alignment square from D&D, he was definitely more of a Chaotic Good than a Chaotic Evil. Remember, he warned the TNG crew about the presence of the Borg AND he saved Picard's life in Tapestry! At best, he's mischievous. But I wouldn't call him a villain.
It's also fairly easy to argue that the crew was probably never in much danger in most of his hijinks (the trial being the likely exclusion from that). Him taking them to Sherwood Forest felt more dangerous than a trip to the holodeck, but it would only be that way if Q decided to let them die because as demonstrated more than a few times he had the power to undo anything that happened.
Of course trusting that Q would do that is probably more faith than I have, but since they didn't die I think it's safe to say he didn't intend for them to die.
He's more Loki than Loki :)
Yeah, I too wouldn't call Q a villain, Antagonist, yes, but Q doesn't generally have malevolent intentions, so not quite villain
@@Mortico88 I was just about to say something similar before I saw your comment - he's a classic trickster god.
He's like Raven - sometimes - in some of the Native American stories. In those Raven does his (her) own thing, and inadvertently kicks humans in the butt and gets them to appreciate things better because of it. (Picard in one episode even wonders whether Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.) I should add though that Raven is not a deity as such - more like a recurring character that can be introduced for various didactic points.
Surprised you didn’t mention any of the overtly Christian moments of the original series. When Kirk was confronted by an alien that was a former greek god he says “we have no need for gods anymore, the one is enough.” There is also an entire episode about a species who’s religion was evolving to worship the sun, and the crew eventually came to understand it was “son” as in son of god.
There's a line in Wrath of Khan where McCoy refers to the six day creation as "Myth"
The "Who watchtes the watcher" segment remainded me to a quote from another franchise: "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"
Winston from Ghostbusters
DS9 was the best at exploring life within Star Fleet. I’m hoping that we get a little less fast pacing in Picard season 2 to be able to experience a little more of that. I want to understand what drives the current millennium, much as how we learned about the lives of Star Fleet, Ferengi, Klingon, and Cardassians. Knowing the poetic nature of Cardassia, and the like adds so much more to the lore of the series
In “Bread and Circuses”, Uhura says that the “sun worshippers” aren’t worshipping the sun in the sky, but the “son of God”. The only reference to Christianity in TOS (that I know of).
SPOCK: I wish we could have examined that belief of his more closely. It seems illogical for a sun worshiper to develop a philosophy of total brotherhood. Sun worship is usually a primitive superstition religion.
UHURA: I'm afraid you have it all wrong, Mister Spock, all of you. I've been monitoring some of their old-style radio waves, the empire spokesman trying to ridicule their religion. But he couldn't. Don't you understand? It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God.
KIRK: Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading only now.
MCCOY: A philosophy of total love and total brotherhood.
SPOCK: It will replace their imperial Rome, but it will happen in their twentieth century.
KIRK: Wouldn't it be something to watch, to be a part of? To see it happen all over again? Mister Chekov, take us out of orbit. Ahead warp factor one.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.
I've never rewatched Accession but I remember being impressed with it when it first came out.
It establishes very clearly that religion is dangerous and needs careful handling.
It was fortunate that The Prophets behaved benevolently and responsibly.
Or maybe not that benevolently.
Did they contrive the death of that unfortunate monk to persuade Cisko to take his duty as Emissary more seriously?
Or is that just Cisko's interpretation?
I love this channel. Thanks for your work.
Not all humans in Star Trek are anti-religious. Captain Luke's father was a religious scholar and teacher, and in season 2 of Discovery, he greets the members of the transplant
wanted religious community with "May the Peace of the
Ord be with you", a greeting used by Jesus, and later by Catholics, Lutherans and other Christians.
As far back as TOS, Uhura points out that the slaves in " Bread and Circuses" are not "sun worshipers", butf9llowers of the Son of God.
; she points out that the Roman broadcaster tried to ridicule their belief, but he couldn't do it. So, in this episode, Septimus and Flavius are definitely finite followers, and Uhura has at least studied the Bible.
TOS also has an appearance of a chapel on the ship ("Balance of Terror" - not Christine! :)) and a character with a bindi (Lt. Rahda in "That Which Survives".)
Bread and Circuses.
Great episode which has positive things to say about Christianity.
Surprised that episode didn't make your video. It credits religion as being a positive social change happening on a planet like earth in the 20th century but in a Roman empire type of society.
Also "Who Mourns Adonis" showed religion as outdated, but the final words of Kirk have a positive nostalgia for religion.
And organized humans can cause great good OR great evil, with or without a religion.
Who killed the most in the 20th century, religion or the State?
I am not surprised the author overlooked the one episode that has something positive to say about Christianity. It happens often.
And Uhura said, "...not the s-u-n in the sky...the s-o-n of God". -"Bread and Circuses"-TOS--
I walk "The Way". I am a follower of the Lord Jesus the Christ, AND a rabid Trekker from the TOS era. I testify to what I believe by putting into everyday practice the teachings of Jesus, not by excessive talking and arguing about religion. After all, any ordered, codified way of doing things can become a "religious" practice. The silliest things. I cannot wear the IDIC (The Spirit guides me against doing that. Neither can I wear nor display in my home images of the sun or the moon) because I understand what that image is. However, I respect those who do wear it because they follow the Analytics of Surak. The history of the earth pulls back a bloody veil, exposing the sad story of zealots and the havoc they caused in the name of their faith. I understand fictional Vulcan had its similar times. Yet, In the end, only faith, hope, and love have the power to lift humanity out of the morass it is so often rolling in to the point of despair. Klingons, Mentaukans, and Vulkansu--brothers and sisters throughout all galactic regions: When we finally reach peace, I know that faith will also be there. LLAP
One of the recurring themes in the original series was rejecting paradise. "This Side of Paradise," "The Paradise Syndrome," "I, Mudd," "Return of the Archons," and "Who Mournes for Adonis" (in which Kirk basically killed a literal god). It ties into Kirk's ST5 philosophy of pain and suffering being part of who we are.
One of the things that always bothered me about most western religions is the idea of getting into heaven or the Garden of Eden or something similar. Wanting to go to heaven is like wanting to revert to a state of childhood, or the idea of going back to a "simpler time," and in doing so, giving up both freedom and knowledge.
(This was also a recurring theme in Twilight Zone.)
Don't forget "The Way to Eden" in TOS. That had a troop of hippies seeking to enter a paradise that had nothing to do with any God. Unless you count their leader, posing as the great authority, deciding who should die so he could have his own private kingdom.
I know this couldn't list EVERY religious mention in every show since 1966, but the one that really got me was at the end of TOS "Bread and Circuses", where the triumvirate were musing on the slaves worshipping the sun, only for Uhura to correct them that the slaves were worshipping the SON of God, not the sun in the sky. The episode ended at that part, but to me, that just opened so many more questions than anything, tbh.
This is a salient reminder of when Star Trek actually addressed issues in an intelligent, coherent and entertaining fashion. Nice one Steve.
Great video, as always! Your presentations are very interesting. I just miss a reference to the TOS episode of the romans of the XX century, were they describe a culture of "sun worshippers" that at the end of the episode result in being some sort of christians. I think that it would be great to see your opinion about that episode in the context of this video. Of course, it doesn't low the value of your video. I liked it.
"The Vulcan "salute" was devised by Leonard Nimoy, who portrayed the half-Vulcan character Mr. Spock on the original Star Trek television series;
In his 1975 autobiography 'I Am Not Spock', Nimoy, who was Jewish, wrote that he based it on the Priestly Blessing performed by Jewish Kohanim with both hands, thumb to thumb in this same position, representing the Hebrew letter Shin (ש), which has three upward strokes similar to the position of the thumb and fingers in the gesture. The letter Shin here stands for El Shaddai, meaning "Almighty (God)", as well as for Shekhinah and Shalom. Nimoy wrote that when he was a child, his grandfather took him to an Orthodox synagogue, where he saw the blessing performed and was impressed by it."...(he said you weren't supposed to peek during the blessing...he did...and saw the hand gesture...)
Picard for sure was very trigger happy with the self-destuct in season 1.
I would like to listen to the Ensigns Log but I can’t seem to get it on Apple Podcasts. Is there a URL I can copy to subscribe? The links in the description are only sending me to SoundCloud and the website link appears to be dead.
There is a good chance that I just don’t know what I’m doing so I’d appreciate some help. 😊
Very good. I enjoyed this.
You didn't mention the part of "Bread and Circuses" where Uhura mentioned that christianity took it's time on Magna Roma and the sun god they were talking bout was the "son of god" and made the end of the episode seem like it was some kind of religious thing. As an atheist myself, and a minister in the CotFSM, I share in your secular views and that is one of the many reasons I am a huge Trekkie. Keep up the good work.
DS9 taught us that blind acceptance of religion is backwards and we shouldn't tolerate or uplift a group willing to kill over it.
Also that the prime directive is important and you shouldn't offer an exception just because a backwards group is squatting on a cardasian space station you want to occupy.
@@dupersuper1938 that’s what I was going to say.
How did you prepare for such a long, smooth dialogue? Was this all written out? It’s very well done.
Don't forget the TOS episodes Who Mourns for Adonais and Bread and Circuses.
DOES Q endanger their lives? I mean, it LOOKS like that to us, but, well, I'm convinced, especially after his cameo on Lower Decks, there never was a trial. Q's just bored, and we're fun. I have my doubts that Q would actually let anything happen to his favourite crew. At least by HIS actions.
I remember in Enterprise Dr. Phlox said he visited religious sites on Earth and met with priests and monks. So there's still at least some religious practice on Earth in the future. There's also the episode "Balance of Terror" when at the beginning before the wedding is interrupted, the bride kneels and prays at the altar, which implied she is Catholic.
R.I.P. Camille Saviola who portrayed Kai Opaka on DS9 and recently passed away.
May the Prophets take good care of her.
I do love how the alien makeup for them in this episode is literally just Romulan prosthetics that aren't painted a greenish color lol.
Great stuff!
Can’t wait…
Just finished rewatching STTNG S2Ep4, The Outrageous Okona.
Data is a comedic savant when he’s not trying.
Well done video!
That last line was quite amusing....since I said "dead" a second before you did....