Celere Sahariano, the Italian Crusader | Cursed by Design
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
- Italian armor is often considered a laughing stock compared to their contemporaries in world war two. During the war however one project was under development that may have changed all of that. This is the story of the Fiat M16/43 also known as the Carro Armato Celere Sahariano.
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#cursedbydesign #italy #history
Thanks to everyone for over 62,500 subscribers! As chosen by the poll last week I'll be making a video on the Super Pershing very soon. I have already ordered some source material and began work on the script. With some luck that will be one of the first videos of 2021.
Happy new year and i love ur vids
how did you post this 9 hours earlier
Road to 100000
Bro the celere didn't use christie suspension....also the creator of the model made an entire post about the additional front plate.
He made a post about the armor which I did look at but it was mostly just showing pictures of the frontal plate having a seam where the extra plate supposedly is. I'm not saying he's wrong and that's why I included it in the video but I could find nothing to back up the claim so withough definite source material I erred on the side of caution. Had they been able to send me the information they used I may have been able to but they were either unwilling or unable to do so.
cone of arc: *speaking history and facts*
background music: *funiculi funicula intencifices*
Lmao didnt even notice that
@@zathary564 no wonder, the background music was so low
Finally someone said it:
"The Italian Crusader"
always thought P40 was the italian crusader
@@richardbradley2335 that was the italian t34
@@PoketMarty04 Nah that was probably more likely the P.43 BIS.
Another project never finished.
@@dallasjonpaulgrove547 is like the same tank but bigger with a bigger gun... so
@@PoketMarty04 BIS? It actually has a completely sloped front instead of a semi sloped front like the P-40. The P-40 has two angles on the front of it. The p-43 is the heavier variant of it. It is the P-43 BIS which is the experimental variant that also had a body similar to the saharino.
I can imagine a crusader fighting a swarm of L3s like doom guy
**Girls und Panzer flashback**
@@goomba0072 Funny cunts
Both Liked
L3 is so cute I can't bring my self to shoot it in war thunder
@@cisarovnajosefina4525 do it for me, as italian and as italian player in war thunder pls, SHOOT DAT SHIT!
@@cisarovnajosefina4525
Moni > pet tonk
that tank looks like it can cook 4 pizzas in it's engine deck, but you'd have to settle with a dusty and gritty experience.
We Italians say: make pizza not war!
@@patrickglaser1560 it is a little bit difficult to switch sides because both my grandfather, including the battle of El Alemain, and my late father was fully involved with the war and were living in Tuscany that was at the wrong side! In truth I do prefer the pizza 🍕 😋
@@patrickglaser1560 The Italians only lost in WWII- the Americans couldn't win in South Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan.
@@cavius8784 true
@@paoloviti6156 mai sentito
Fascinating for sure, I'd like to see you cover the M3 Lee or Grant soon
It isnt really cursed by design at all just look at the Char B and early soviet landships
@@kh2b573 perhaps
@@spythor1281 in the desert war of 1942, the Germans quickly learned to fear its 75mm gun. Remember, in the desert there is more room for maneuvering then in World of Tanks, they were not trying to rush around a house when lack of a main gun in the turret hindered them.
most of the things that could be said have been said on youtube about the lee or lee grant
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 yes and at those ranges the PaK 40 on the Panzer 4 f2 which also arriced somewhere around 1942 were more effective
Brits and Italians: We are speed!
BT-7: That's cute.
Yo at least the British vehicles didn't break down every 25 or 50 operational hours. BT engines were fast but SHIIIIIITE!
@@zacharytracy3797 Crusader?
no, BT engines had low rate of failures, the only thing that succs in BT is the some 6mm Armor plates that heavy machine guns can pen
*M18 Hellcat intensifies*
@@zacharytracy3797 I have never heard of anyone saying that the BT tanks were unreliable, not even The Chieftain. I have heard of thousands of BT tanks being abandoned due to encirclements and lack of fuel.
I have heard of British tanks that operated in North Africa having reliability problems, but those were mainly related to the air intake sucking in sand due to bad filters or a bad position on the tank.
Actually, the Italians didn't have many resources this make this vehicle.
Probably as like the Skoda T-22 for Czech and Romanians, and then for Hungarians with the Turan, the vehicle was complex and so, they cannot produce any, but Hungarians made a new vehicle like Skoda T-22, the Turan I, and they "mass" produced the vehicle.
Previously, we never seen an italian medium tank with plate armor, the first was the P26/40, but it never entered in service, for the German occupation and the creation ot the Italian Social Republic.
The M13, M14, M15, L6, and then the L3, had the problem of the bullons that, with one shoot, and the bullons kill the crew and that was the problem of many tanks of many nations.
I don't know why Italians didn't make some of the M16, like 30 of them, but only a prototype, probably because for the lack of materials and for the loose of Africa.
Sorry of bad English, i hope you read this comment, congrats for 62.500 subscribes
it was desided the P40 was better and thus they desided to focus on that (and the cheaper M15)
@@matthiuskoenig3378 and the P40 was a improved P75 too
@@VaduzCommandoLM4O
The P75 was similar to the A1E1 Independence or the T-35 and NeuerBaufahrZeug, a land battleship of sort, it was scrapped in the late 30' because there wasn't much point to it
P26/40 production was plagued mostly by the fact that Germany refused to give any kind of help to italy even when the war was going well for them, Italy requested technical assistance because all of their expert welders worked for the air force and navy and none on vehicles, Germany wouldn't give them neither technical training nor ship actual workers, then italy asked for 600-ish AA batteries to defend their factories, and Germany refused
The Ansaldo plants got bombed as a result of that, so the P26/40 production started much later, it was supposed to roll out in 1940, not 43
@@CaptainGrief66 oh hi OtakuComrade
@@CaptainGrief66 they made in 1940 a new version of the P75, that was very similar to the M13/40, but with a 20mm gun, and named P75 "Coloniale" intended as a Carro di rottura
Crusader that only focused on leg day
Italy had a pretty shit industry and made do with what they had. Light tanks meant for mountain fighting don't do well in wide open deserts.
Because Italy didn't mean to fight in open areas, their tanks were developed for Mountain war
@@alessandromazzini7026 Well kinda like Japan. They just prioritised their Navy and Air Force.
@@kimjanek646 You could at least argue that Japan's limited logistical transportation was one of the reasons why they stuck to the light tank designs for so long. China didn't have many tanks, the USSR stayed out of their business after they put them in their place at Kalkin Gol, and the rest of the Pacific Theatre was fought on islands and jungles with limited roads and open ground. They just had the bad luck that the US not only had a superior medium tank, but could also actually get them where they were needed.
Meanwhile fuckin Italy gets involved in wide open theatres with rickety riveted tankettes that had the bad habit of bursting into flames when hit by a .50 cal enough. If they stuck to the mountains, sure, but they went for friggin' Ethiopia and Tunisia. The British tanks weren't exactly the best of the war, but the Italian ones weren't even 30's level, they had to fight with tanks based on designs from the 20's. That is, if they even got them across the Mediterranean in the first place since their navy had to fight against two of the three biggest navies on the damn planet.
@@Moonhermit- well compared to other nations tanks of the time the British (Cruiser) tanks were quite advanced, naybe apart from reliability issues in the dessert.
Not many tanks had radios, three man turrets and a powerful gun like the 2pdr.
The Italien vehicles were mostly 30s designs like Japanese tanks. They both didn’t bother to built more effective tanks and when they did the tanks were already obsolete by the time they were produced.
Both nations have in common that they are surrounded by water and expanding their territory requires a strong navy.
If Italy hasn’t picked a fight with Britain and the Japanese with the US, they might have been quite successful, since unlike other nations they at least had tanks.
@@kimjanek646 radios were critical for Victory
I deem it a bit unfair to make such a laughing stock out of italian tanks. It's neither the fault of the tanks, nor of their constructors, that italian tanks were planned and constructed with a completely different tank doctrine and mind - and the used in war zones and for tasks they simply were not created for.
Most italian tanks were light tanks that were planned with infantry support and mountain warfare in mind. They were small and nimble, capable of climbing steep slopes and of finding cover behind rocks etc and with a use as mobile cover and mobile pillbox in mind. When you use something like this in the egyptian desert and send it to fight the big boys, well, of course it's going to fail.
Just look at the US M3 Light Tank. For the european theater of war it was too outdated, too light, too badly armored and under-gunned, but it could shine in the Pacific, where it was an ideal fighting vehicle for the circumstances.
Every time I watch these videos I feel like I'm watching a documentary
This is the definition of quality.
Also i like how you point out varying sourses.
*sources
English is dumb remember that next time you type something
@@imk2007 potato bLIGHR
The "carro celere sahariano" (AFAIK it has never received the standardized number M16/43, because it has never been standardized for the Royal Italian Army) has not a Christie suspension . It has neither torsion bars. The large wheels appear to be assembled into two bogies, and the elastic element of the suspension to be a spiral spring housed in the cylindrical components visible behind the road wheels. The spring would be connected to the roadwheel by a crank arm. It is a similar design to the light tank L6/40.
Information is available in two ponderous books edited by the Historical Bureau of The Italian Army's General Staff - one book is by Ceva and Curami, of the other I do not remember the authors.
The origjnal drawings have been lost in the war.
Despite being a minor tank nations, Italian armored and mechanized vehicles are quite interesting to study because they actually fought in tank battles, organised in armoured divisions, agajnst the best Allied tanks of 1940-43 and alongside German armoured units (and often under German command)
One more think: by the time, the Sahariano tank was conceived, the Army had already abandoned the idea of adopting the Czech tank. In fact i think the latter had never been a real option, just a way to make Ansaldo sweat a little to get their order.
I love how in the title screen you show one of the more succesfull cold war desings.
"Italian" and "Armor" don't belong in the same sentence, unless we're talking about WW1 body armor.
Or Medieval Armor
15th century Italy: we have the best Armor in the world.
20th Century Italy: wait you guys had armor?
Yeah
From what I understand their ship's armor wasn't too bad, and was in fact pretty good. Not that they got to use their ships as much as they'd like to
@@forickgrimaldus8301 imagine a elite Italian force In something like Company of hero’s using beretta modello 38 and in heavy armor
As always its fun to learn about the development of a tank especially a tank that is unknown.
I always had the feeling that if the Italian would have had time and resources, they would have been able to create amazing tanks during the war.
Just think that they were already building the best race cars before the war, and after it ended it took them just a few years to catch up and become number one again. I know it's not the same, but that shows the Italian techonoly was good enough.
This and the modern Italian defense industry proves that they could have made some very advanced and effective light tanks in ww2
Given enough time to industrialize
But Hitler started the war early, and didn’t really want a fully developed Italy power house
They wanted the same with Italy as Japan, a stop gap to slow down the others so they could advance faster then everyone else
Shot themselves in the foot a few times with that
@@bornonthebattlefront4883they made some really nice fighters planes not too many talk about.
They built some very nice ships as well.
I really do love these videos and I just wanted to say thank you for making them
Pov: you looked at the thumbnail and thought it looked like a British cruiser
Seriously?
Anyone else look and think T34/76 ?
Can you made a video about the Chi-Ri(aka the most advanced japanese tank of WW2, and the first with an autoloader)?
Japanese tanks are notorious for lacking information about them. But I do plan to eventually cover them once I can get some.
Italian tank design couldn't rely on much to be fair, resources were scarce (Germany held most of them too) and all production efforts went to the air force and navy and it really shows, italy made with what it had, another example is with the P26/40.
P26/40 production was plagued mostly by the fact that Germany refused to give any kind of help to italy even when the war was going well for them, Italy requested technical assistance because all of their expert welders worked for the air force and navy and none on vehicles in sufficient quantities, Germany wouldn't give them neither technical training nor ship actual workers, then italy asked for 600-ish AA batteries to defend their factories, and Germany refused
The Ansaldo plants got bombed as a result of that, so the P26/40 production started much later, it was supposed to roll out in 1940, not 43 (also it was supposed to mount the 105/25 105mm cannon the M43 semovente has)
All things considered, Italian vehicles are capable machines when paired against what they were supposed to fight, but nothing worked out for their tank industry
*Another epic video by the man, the legends, Cone of Arcs!*
Love seeing a cursed by design coming out! :D
It didn't actually use Christie suspension but rather coiled springs that each pair of roadwheels were attached to.
When I header suspension is Christie or torsion bar because it had big wheels... author is clueless.
When Mario wanted a t34 but he don't have money. So he asked luigi and antonio to make it
It'd be great if you'd make a video covering the different suspension types.
Thank you for yet another great video!
I love your choice of background music.
4:11 yeah czech ftw
Czechbois straight up had the best medium tank in 1938/39. That's why Germany stole them!
LOVE THE INTRO Cone!!!!
I think that we all can agree that the best tank ever built was the Bob Semple tank.
Nice video with clear explaining of this suspected design Italian tank ... thanks for sending
Looking at the "stuff" clearly visible between the 1st and 2nd as well as 3rd and 4th wheels, i would assume it to have neither a Christie nor torsion bar suspension but 2 bogies each side?
Hard to tell but it could have had a reversed torsion bar type suspension?
@@FairladyS130 Good point!
@@guidor.4161 Seems more like it's the CV 38's torsion spring suspension
Love your vids man, and I got my first cone tank Yesterday!
"...compared to their contemporaries."
/looks at british, french, american and japanese tanks of the same periods/
I feel like that's an exaggeration to say the least.
P.S.: to drive it further, notice how 5 countries I've mentioned here were more focused on navy, how quickly US put Sherman into service when priorities changed and how USSR and Germany had said percentage of their budget allocated to tank development and production instead.
In Britain’s case, concentrating on the Navy made sense because being an island nation the priority is to stop enemies crossing the water.
@@mrjockt
1)USA - Panama, Philippines and Hawaii can't be reached by land or air, two oceans protect from any land war;
2)Japan - same situation as GB plus the constant need to support land troops in China;
3)France - vast colonial empire that is pressured by Japan, the only opponents on land are weaker Germany and Italy, both of whom need to go through vast french defense lines;
4)Italy - majority of the country is a coastline, no land route to Lybia, colonial goals which are also achievable only by sea.
So in case of all the countries above it is somehow LESS obvious then for GB?:D
Add to this that strong navy is basically a call card for superpower status as it equals an ability to influence world trade on global scale.
Germany and USSR both had plans for oceangoing navy to rebuild what was lost from imperial times, but they realised that continental war would come sooner and that they're not ready(both German and Russian Empire lost in WWI after all and suffered for that heavily while all countries above were among winners. And yes, Russia was part of Entente. Which betrayed it during Civil War;))
Italian couldnt even equip their divisions sufficently, nevermind having the ability to manufactor medium tank the choice for building light tanks was pretty much nessecitated by the lack of industry and economiclly cheap to produce. Where as other major powers all experimented with Heavy tanks
Great video, Thanks
excellent choice of background music
couldn't pay attention to half of the video cause my mind kept subconsciously drifting to the pizza pasta meme song
the internet ruined me but also keeps me alive
These videos always make me want to rewatch Pentagon Wars.
Great job!
I would like to see more Italian tank designs, one which would come to mind is the P.44 Pantheria
Excellent, thanks!
YES, MORE CURSED BY DESIGN! I thought it was just a video on the neat lil Celere XP
Italy and Japan: it’s not that we can’t design good tanks. We were just so hopelessly tight on resources.
japan had some decent tanks. but they were better at planes and ships.
but they excelled in infantry combat.
They also didn't see as much of a reason to invest effort into their tank programs. Italy expected lot's of fighting in the mountains, and so focused most of their effort into lighter designs ( while also having a relatively poor industrial sector compared to all the other major combatants). While Japan not only had the issue of a developing industrial sector, but also the false belief that tanks weren't particularly useful in many situations because of their strange armor doctrine. Also, Japan's navy and Army couldn't get along and so the Navy often got preferred treatment when it came to supplying steel for manufacturing.
@@chadam917 for not really believing in tanks, japan put out some good ones for what the tank division had to work with.
Also you forgot that all of the Italian military budget went to the navy
I love so much this series
Because is very cool and educative
Love the background music
So, I can disguise as a crusader in SB...mh, yes...
I love your Channel ❤️❤️
Nice background music!!
if you're wondering, Wargaming made a similiar video a part of which talked about Sahariano, they said in the video that they reverse engineered a T-34 given to them by the Germans, also congrats for 62,500 subs, on the way to 69,000 subs lol
edit: i guess i should mention that i trusted the wrong source, oof
It doesn't use christie suspension so wargaming is wrong. forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/503635-carro-m-celere-sahariano-behind-the-project/
wargaming isn't a reliable source, i would argue its sloped plates is the only thing from the T-34. its rear drive wheels could have been copied from the british, and if it was copied from the T-34 it would of had a 75mm gun from the begining (like the P40-series of prototypes) rather than a last minute change that never saw the light of day.
One of the sources the list right in the post says it has christie suspension and the other says torsion bar. This tank has some of the most contradictory information about it so it's nearly impossible to say for certain.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 i think i should mention no one had said this in the comments in the original video, so with zero knowledge of what was considered reliable i just took what i had known, so i just went along with them
@@ConeOfArc late to the party but on the Italian wiki page it says the suspensions were derived from the Christie system, but with key differences. A rough translation: "The suspensions derived from those of the Christie type with four large diameter wheels, but there were some differences: two upper track support wheels had been kept and, above all, the carrying wheels had been coupled two by two and controlled by torsion bars (not large coil springs with articulated arms, the system patented by the engineer Christie)."
The idea of tanks being designed around the T-34 is something I had read about the Carro Armato P26, which I suppose makes sense.
About the armament, Italian wiki has this to say: "In reality, the army general staff considered the 47 mm cannon provisional and thought, once production had begun, of replacing it with the 75/34 Mod. S.F. or even with the excellent 65/64 Mod. 1939 for whose deliveries, however, the Regia Marina had priority."
The feasibility of mounting a bigger gun on the turret is doubtful though, as it was less spacious than the M14's.
I'm trying to find sources for this data but you're right that it's hella scarce.
Can we have a video of chi-nu, chi-to or chi-ri (u choice) next plz ?
Did not know about the existence of this, very cool
Will poor Bob Semple never be given credit he did what he could with what they had.
Maybe you've already done it but a great historical background video would be all the Czech produced tanks (and modifications, e.g. anti-tank, later in the war).
It's not commonly known that it was absolutely critical for Hitler to capture the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia for their great early light tanks and production facilities. In fact for quite a long time they comprised a large portion of the tank cadre of panzer divisions on the Eastern front, until newer German models were available in quantity.
For Italian tanks, the norm was for the model numbers to represent tonnage/year. So M16/43 was most likely aimed to weigh 16t.
That sloped front plate:
WHERE DOES THE DRIVER GO?!
ah yes, the W I D E boii
Never heard of this one. It looks pretty cool and low-profile.
Sure the base tank wasn't great, but the Abarth trim is a hoot to drive
I never knew that’s so cool
Warthunder accuracy is amazing.
Italians sure liked their rivets
In addition to the Skoda design, the Italians also had the option of building Panzer IIIs under license. This would've given the Italians a chassis capable of mounting a 75mm gun quickly. Again, the reason Mussolini rejected this was because Italian industry told him that a new Italian tank would be produced shortly.
the first tank to win the Monaco Grand Prix
Hopefully we might get some model kits of this tank in the future :)
The big question I have is what prevented nations outside of Germany from turning most of their tankettes into panzerjager type machines (like the marder or later nashorn). If they already know the armor probably won't be enough, and are under strict weight limits might as well just go for the big gun in an open mounting.
I like how you used the pizza time song as the background music.
I’m sure someone has said this a hundred times, but the music!!!
i'm pretty sure the tank weighted 16 tons, the italian classification for tanks used the weight and the first year of production "for example the m11/39, or m13/40, that weighted respectfully 11 and 13 tons"
04:10
The T21 looks very much like an LT-vz 35.
Everybody gangsta till the Italian crusader removes it's speed limiter
What about doing a video on the P43 and other variants (P43 bis. and P.35/43)?
The Polish were developing a vehicle using Christie suspension, the 10TP used Christie suspension and a follow on 14TP was built. Neither ever went into production.
It's possible the Italians got access to that technology.
Literally every single photo of this tank looks like its horizontally elongated.
Actually looks good
May there be a chance there can be a video about the big brother of the celere the P40
Iam building a model Carro Armato while I watch this 🙂 This video is very interesting as I play tabletop WW2 games and folks mock my Italian army...and then I win the game lol
@
ConeOfArc by road wheels do you mean the teeth-less sprocket that drives the track guide pins instead of the tracks like in the t34?
All the wheels used somewhat resemble the ones on the T-34 but especially the road wheels
@@ConeOfArc the wheels were stolen from a captured A13, the only one that was inspired by the T-34 was the sprocket one
Yes, I think the sprocket rather than the road wheels is the giveaway that there was a soviet influence - AFAIK previous Italian tanks, and the British cruisers all had toothed sprockets.
i remember loving this tank and wanting to play it in war thunder back when i played the game, then like a year after i quit the game it got added... as a premium
i laughed in ripping the model and importing it into MOW:AS 2
i bought it in WT it is fun to play
Looks like like Italian T-34
It looks like the frame version of the stabdard italian tank
I’m a beast in this tank, my most recent game I’ve gotten 6 kills and 4 assists and died after fighting basically the whole enemy team in war thunder
I want kranvagn or jagdpanzer E 100 or e 100 when your done on the super pershing
Thanks for the pizza music
Why do you include the Object 279 in the intro, but have yet to do an episode on the moon rover?
The fucking spider man pizza song in the background killed me
even their tanks sound like food and seasonings
Once I've read that it was used during the defence of Rome from the Germans after the armistice and that it took 4 pz4 out of service. I wonder how tho
Not to poke fun but the tanks name sounds delicious 😋
Tank model looks very wide and flat, is the aspect ratio really really really correct?
Shot at one of these the other day in a m22 and it kept bouncing my shots and I was honestly not even mad I main tf out of Italy in warthunder
If this tank mixed it up in desert combat with British Crusaders, gunners from a distance on either side would’ve had a heck of a time identifying proper targets….
Promising is overstating it. Given the first prototype was ready in 1942 by the time it gone into production and entered service it would have been obsolete. By September 1942 the British had 300 75mm armed Sherman's in North Africa and by 1943 the earlier British crusader tanks it was inspired by were being withdrawn from frontline service. With it's thin armour it would have been shot to pieces by allied tanks
0:41 what hit this tank to make so many holes
The W I D E tank
What about the burstyn motorgeschütz?
2:33 - 2:39 Me and the Boys on our way to get pizza
Funicula is a Neapolitan song. About a tram.
Hold on, obj 279 were manufactured but were put into storage.
Holy Frick I never clicked that fast
I lost it when i heard funiculi funicla