My late husband went from mainsteam LDS - convert at 19 in Amsterdam to 12 years ago deciding to identify as a Joseph Smith Mormon. He said he thought about it long before we married and never told me. I was a convert in 1997. He was insistent on having three wives. #2 came from a large plyg family in se MO. She died before they were sealed so it was done by proxy. #3 was half way around the world and half his age. She "converted" and they were sealed. She just wanted a white guy. We would have been married 25 years next month. After he died two years ago I found the photos and an ecplicit video. Just when I think I am over the shock of the betrayal, I go into a deep dark hole. No one suspects it, but no one know what goes on behind closed doors. I binge watch Mormon Stories and the other podcasts. I know that I am not alone. I submitted my formal request to be removed from the LDS roles a few weeks ago. Thank you for being here. You matter and I love you all.
Dang! That sucks and I am sorry that these new findings keep happening to you. Take care of yourself. Now is a good time to shed the old skin, deconstruct old views, and emerge better off! So sorry.
I keep having to remind myself that the family and missionaries who got me into the church weren’t necessarily lying to me or purposely trying to manipulate me, but that they had likewise been lied to. So much deception and willful ignorance. Thank you both for the time you put into these episodes.
I’m empathetic to your comment about lying. I think we have to accept the fact the Church packaged their story in a way to cover the basic doctrinal tenets of the “restoration”. Even today, Gospel Doctrine is a carefully prepared story. They never go deep. Many in the Church don’t care and aren’t historically interested in what actually happened.
This episode reminds me of something my mom always said to me. There's no comfort in the growth zone and no growth in the comfort zone. She was a strong proponent of confronting difficult things because that's how you learn and grow.
Thank you for this podcast. I’m not Mormon, but always wanting to learn more. I’m non-denominational. My church encourages researching and reading the Bible. Studying and learning more about God’s true nature. I have never been told what to believe. I’ve discovered it for myself. Thank you for all you do. It solidifies my faith and helps me. Your voice is soothing. Thank you.
I saw a quote from someone, I think it may have been in the Netflix documentary but they said something along the lines of "I think 99% or Mormons would be appalled by Warren Jeffs. But I think hes the closest to practicing what Joseph Smith was actually doing."
I believe that if Joseph Smith were here, he would recognize the FLDS as the church he created and the mainstream church as something he never conceived of.
Thank you for covering this important foundational subject to the LDS religion. Mike and a John you did a stellar job covering this difficult topic. Clearly, polygamy was a mess as evidenced by the information presented in the podcast and the church comments in the Gospel Topics Essay’s. The doctrine was completely mismanaged my Joseph Smith because of the necessity for secrecy and deceit. My personal opinion is this is ultimately why Joseph was murdered. Anyone who thinks polygamy wasn’t about ecclesiastical power and sex is naive. Polygamy and it’s foundation and ultimate practice is horrible stain on Mormonism. To any believer listening to this podcast and reading my post, here’s my challenge to you: read every word of Section 132 and tell yourself you actually believe this is the word of God. Read it together with your wife, if you are married, and after look at each other and say, yes agree with this section, I believe this is the word of God . . .
1:20:55 Clarification based on the Greek etymology: polygamy literally translates to "many marriages/spouses," so it is not specific to sex or gender. Polygyny literally means "many women" and polyandry means "many men," from the Greek words "gyne," woman, and "andros," man.
That quote about history (near the beginning of the podcast) is really on point. And those lesson manuals that you mentioned (IIRC, it was the "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" series that came out several years ago) really drove home to me that the leaders of the church were intentionally engaging in deceptive practices. All of the polygamist presidents of the church were presented in those manuals in ways that implied that they were monogamous and only the heads of families created in monogamous relationships. Even family photos of those presidents were included that showed the president with only one wife (the actual legal wife) and the children of that union. Not only was this approach in the manuals obviously dishonest (as should have been clear to any member who knew the real history of those presidents), but it was also heaping insult on top of injury to those plural wives who were essentially erased from memory by the church and by the creators of those lesson manuals (which were no doubt approved at the highest levels of leadership). All but the official legally married one wife (usually the first wife or the next legally married wife following the death of the first wife) were flushed down the memory toilet by those "lesson manuals". Imagine going into those often horrific plural marriage unions because you are told by the church that it is God's will and a commandment. Then imagine what those women would have felt if they had later learned that their (great-great or great-great-great) grandchildren would be encouraged by the church to believe that these women who had been plural wives should not be recognized publicly as having ever been married to their famous ancestor (great-great or great-great-great) grandfather and that neither those plural wives nor any of the children that they bore were worthy of being mentioned in connection with or associated with or shown in photos with the illustrious grandfather who had been a president of the church and only the one "real" wife and her children were deemed appropriate and presentable for official lesson manual purposes.
guys I've watched this entire series ... great job ... I'm a Catholic and 63 yes old ... and I've learned more about the bible and Jesus from you all rather than the church I was born into ... I e bn looking for this info for a long time ... can't thank you enough ... this particular series must have taken countless hours to complete ... also your info has led me to alot of other great humans ... watched Dan Vogel last night... what a smart man wowzer thanks ya all👍💙
So would you like to meet the missionaries or what? A lot of ex Catholics make their way into Mormonism, looking to make sense of a traditional religious worldview, and theological answers that the mainstream groups don't provide in their minds.
If you want to learn more about Catholicism, look for the bible in a year and catechism in a year on youtube and podcasts. I'm not trying to lead people down the road of Catholicism, just offering another option for learning more. I'm really enjoying this series. I have it playing in the background while i'm doing repetitive chores or driving. I appreciate how much info is here and how well it's put together.
The Catholic church did many cruel and inhuman acts to the indigenous people of Canada. The Catholic Church helped in destroying the indigenous languages across the country of Canada.
Great content! You speculated about the time frame for the Fannie Alger affair and I submit that it had to be prior to the Spring of 1835 because the original section 101 was a result of rumors of that relationship and the 1835 edition of the D&C contained that section. I also think that it is likely that the affair was going on for a while before Emma busted them in the act. Show me someone with a DUI and I will show you someone that has been drinking and driving for a while, prior to getting caught.
When I was invetigating the Church and having the discussions, I asked about Polygamy and was told that "In order for women to travel across the plains they had to married, there was not enough men to go around which is why they married more than one woman"
I was told similar BS when the missionaries taught me. They also said they were taking care of widows and the marriages were not sexual. What a load of whitewashed lies.
Great podcast! The content is important for every LDS, problematic is an understatement. I always feel physically sick after learning more about the Polygamy aspect of this church, though it doesn't mean I should avoid educating myself. You can bet I'll be watching again next week. Thank you for putting it together and putting it out there!
I sometimes wonder what a faithful Mormon would think if they heard the following story: There once was a man named Joe who lived in a house that was located between a hard-working farmer on one side and a successful bakery on the other side. One day, he was angrily confronted at the same time by both the farmer and the owner of the bakery. The farmer accused him of stealing some of the farmer's watermelons. Joe was in a tricky situation because, when he opened the door to the farmer and the bakery owner, he was holding a slice of watermelon in his hand and three watermelons could be seen on the floor behind him. The owner of the bakery accused him of stealing two cherry pies. Again, Joe was in a tricky situation because not only was the fragrance of the cherry pies very deliciously present in Joe's home, two cherry pies could easily be seen on a countertop in Joe's kitchen. "Well, what do you have to say for yourself, Joe?" the farmer and the bakery owner asked, virtually in unison. Joe looked a bit nervous, but then pulled a piece of paper from his pocket and showed it to the angry neighbors. "This is a letter I got from the King of the World just yesterday. It says to me: "Joe, since you've been asking whether it's right or wrong to take your neighbors' watermelons and pies, I've decided to give you an answer. The answer is that it's okay for YOU to do it and in special cases for other people to do it if YOU tell them that I told you that it's okay for them to do it too. But otherwise it would ordinarily be bad for someone to do such a thing without my permission. As King of the World, I hereby confirm that you do have my permission and, furthermore, I command you to take your neighbors' watermelons and pies when you feel moved to do so because you are really important, Joe, and you've always been one of my most faithful and obedient subjects. And if your neighbors ever complain, you tell them that they will have to answer to me, the King of the World!!!" Joe then pointed to a signature at the bottom of the note. "Look right there! It's even signed by the King of the World!!!" Of course I'm sure that any faithful Mormon would think that this is a ridiculous story and of course the point of the story would be that the character named Joe was (a) hoping to get away with bad behavior by claiming that a very high authority that nobody could see or contact directly not only told him that it was okay but even commanded him to do it and (b) hoping that his neighbors were gullible enough to be fooled by such a ridiculous story. When it comes to the doctrine of polygamy in Mormonism, although it should be obvious to most people, it can be important to remind ourselves that God never said a word about any of it. The members of the church were simply told by a guy named Joe that God told Joe that having relationships with multiple women (young, older, married, unmarried) was a good thing for Joe to do. D&C 132 is basically Joseph Smith's equivalent of a letter from the "King of the World" saying that it was okay for him to steal his neighbors' watermelons and cherry pies. Then Joe used his letter to give similar license to key allies (such as Brigham Young) and so on...and the next thing you know you've got two whole generations living weird and often hellish lives based on a scam "revelation" from the "King of the World" because they took Joe and Briggy's word for it that it was genuine.
@@senorbb2150 I haven't seen any official study on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of the Mormon population of the "Mormon Corridor" states (Utah, Idaho, Arizona) can trace their very existence back to Mormon polygamy on at least one parent's side of the family.
I am befuddled. I was born in 1960. I grew up here in the SL Valley. I was taught that Joseph Smith & Brigham Young were polygamists. The Jeff’s lived at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon .. they were Mormon Polygamists. How did this polygamous history get buried. There are many many members my age. They KNOW this history. I don’t understand how the history got lost.
@@jeannemarie5908 The history of Brigham Young being a practicing polygamist was never really buried or forgotten. It was just de-emphasized and the topic studiously avoided by leaders for the past several decades. Most members from multi-generational Mormon families know that Brigham Young was a polygamist and also know that D&C 132 was the "revelation" that Joseph Smith came up with to justify polygamy. What is really weird, though, is that for much of the 20th century and into the current century, the church avoided any mention of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. It's one of those situations where two opposing ideas are held simultaneously and neither of them can be repudiated...so the answer is to avoid the subject altogether. On one hand the church and many members have always wanted to believe that Joseph Smith was too pure and righteous to engage in plural marriage and too honest to lie about not doing it while he was actually doing it. On the other hand, they had no choice but to admit that Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and many other of the top leaders of the Utah church were practicing polygamists and so they had to justify them based on teachings and revelations from...drum roll...Joseph Smith. They trace the origin of the practice back to Joseph Smith but don't want to think of Joseph Smith as actually having practiced it. It's truly a form of religious derangement. I suspect that there are many young Mormons who don't know the history. Most of the older Mormons do know it, but treat it like a crazy uncle hidden in the attic...i.e. something not to be talked about.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N “A crazy uncle hidden in the attic.” Thanks for the chuckle. 🤭 Thanks for your explanation. I grew up understanding that polygamy was definitely part of the doctrine and it came from Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and other ‘off the beaten path’ beliefs (Mormon Doctrine) which caused friction where ever he moved his community to. The Mormons wanted to hold true to their beliefs so the kept looking for the right place to live in peace practicing their religion. Joseph Smith ended up dead at the jail. Brigham Young took over and moved the saints west until they came through the canyon .. looked out over the valley and he proclaimed, “This is the place!” Hence the monument there now. The settlers practiced polygamy because they were not part of the US. They were free to live as they believed. Utah became a state and they had to make polygamy illegal. So, they did and in essence polygamy went underground for some and others refused to be told what to do by the government and lived polygamy in the open. However, I always believed the doctrine was the same .. some people just didn’t practice polygamy, some practiced it covertly and some practiced it openly. I can see where it becomes a problematic doctrinal issue not to be discussed. I guess I just always had the attitude of ‘live and let live’. Therefore, not giving it much thought. Except when some man wanted me to join his polygamous family. No. Didn’t join. But, that is how prevalent polygamy is ..
What’s interesting about the comment- if you feel good it comes from God, when you feel yucky it’s from Satan. I always truly believed that and it was also in my patriarchal blessing. That I would know when I was presented with something or a situation if it was good or bad. In 2020 my son was on a mission and his mission President told them they could read the saints book. He emailed us asking us to send it to him for Christmas. Since we sent it to him, we decided- my husband and I, to also listen to it on tape. I am not super interested in church history books so I didn’t listen to it at all until one weekend we were at our cabin and my husband had it on full blast on our cabin speakers. It was right at the polygamy part and When I heard the part about him marrying the 14 year old girl and that he not only lied to Emma, but then lied to her again and in front of her had a fake wedding since he was already married and she didn’t know. I literally stopped the tape and said to my husband what?? What?? No, this is not okay, this makes me physically sick- this does not feel like it’s from god. God wouldn’t ask a man to lie to his wife or marry a girl in his home so young. Of course my husband said- well god told him to do it so we don’t question it”. Over the next two years that simple part of the saints book bothered me sooo badly and I finally came to the conclusion that the I was always told that I would know what was good and bad and that bad is from Satan and the saints book wasn’t a anti Mormon book, the church put it out. So what Joseph smith did WAS from Satan. I had even come to the conclusion that god has JS killed because he has led the church astray. Again, this is only based on knowing he married one person besides Emma and he lied to her. This summer- 8 weeks ago, I finally read the CES letter and I felt sooo dirty for doing it but I felt even more disgusting reading and finding out ALL of the polygamy and polyandry that JS did- of course I also searched the church essays and was appalled. So it was by the church’s own hand that I knew what I was reading was from Satan. That js was from Satan and what he did was. If I had never read the saints book 2 years ago, I would have never even been put on this journey- so i am grateful for the church for putting out a book- even if it was so white washed and soooooo not complete truth, but it is what ultimately brought me to the truth and I have now left the church. Ironically 4 of my 6 kids left before I had- and tried to tell me about the church essays before this summer and I said no- I don’t want to know. I have since apologized to them for not listening and also for raising them in a church that has done so much damage to them mentally. My husband and I are currently trying to figure out marriage out- he is a huge Joseph smith fan, like he believes all the things JS did was okay and he idolizes him. It makes me sick how much he’s doubled down on reading all the apologist books about him since I told him about what I found. I don’t know if our marriage will survive this - but we are taking the next year, while our second youngest son who is in a mission, to figure out if we can work through these issues now in our marriage- him being in and me being out. So far it’s not going well. 😢
Run fast and far from these doctrines; if your husband stays a Mormon, then there is your sign and walk away, and if he wants to follow the truth, he will follow you. Don't let this bogus church ruin your life, as it is idolatry to worship something, not of God. The Trinity is the absolute truth; Joseph signed his fate and the fate of any followers of him because of his lack of knowledge. It is why his people get destroyed, leaning way too much on their understanding 🤦🏼♂️
@@tamaraelsberry6630 I guess I’m wondering why you assume I haven’t? Not all people who leave the church- leave God. A good majority still believe in a higher power. Do I believe god is a man? A women? Both? I don’t know that because I’ve never met God. But I do know there is one and I speak to God daily/ everyday. All day. I’ve never had a more spiritual connection to God then I do now and that only came from leaving a church that tried to tell me who God was on their terms. Not allowing me to find my own relationship with God & define it for myself.
I love hearing Mike & John. These conversations/discussions are fantastic and have been helping numerous people deconstruct bit by bit. I appreciate these episodes and I've heard from many who truly value these episodes.
1:38:36 I am disgusted by the idea of being , essentially, a breeding tool basically for some man in the eternities. They can sugar it up to be a goddess or whatnot but essentially I’m being passed around like an item you can own. And then used to populate …. Just doesn’t ring true and it’s pretty misogynistic
I recently went on a tour of Brigham Young's winter home in St. George. They only mentioned one wife the entire time. At the end I asked if any of his other wives came to visit and they finally acknowledged his polygamy. If it weren't for me bringing it up the other nonmormon visitors would have never known Brigham Young had more than 1 wife.
I went there last summer and thought the same thing. Glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed it. I didn’t get to ask the question because the missionary guide had a giant school group to attend to.
As one of your loyal, never Mormon subscribers, I wanted to mention something with regard to 2 of the cult leaders mentioned at about minute 26:00, David Koresh (Branch Davidian) and Wayne Bent. You mention they along with other cult leaders had “special revelation” from God about having sex with many women and children. These 2 that were mentioned were splinter groups from the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) church. I was raised SDA. They had a female prophetess, Ellen G White. Ellen had her “first vision from God” at age 17 in the 1844 (an important year for Mormons). As a side note, Ellen never taught polygamy, just the opposite, she seemed disgusted by sex, insisting that even married couples should only have sex for the purpose of having babies. A major teaching of Seventh-day Adventists is that the “remnant church” (the one and only, true church in the last days) will be the “spirit of prophecy” (the gift of prophecy or a modern day prophet that hears directly from God). SDAs believe to this day that EGW was that prophet, even though in the early 1980s it was discovered that she plagiarized much of her writings (66 books in total). Well in the decades after EGW died, some began to wonder why the “remnant church” (SDAs) didn’t have a new prophet after she died. A guy named Victor Houteff began to teach, as a member of the SDAs, that they SHOULD have a current prophet and he believed he was that guy. He splintered out of the SDA church with his followers and formed a movement which ultimately became the Branch Davidians. David Koresh (born Vernon Howell) had a grandmother that was SDA and another was JW. He was most influenced by the SDA grandmother and became obsessed with the book of Revelation. He heard of this splinter group from the SDAs and made a pilgrimage to Waco to learn more about the book of Revelations. The movement had gone through several prophets as they grew old and died, by the time Vernon Howell gets to them, the widow of the latest prophet is leading the small group. He charmed her and she eventually declared him to be the next prophet. Most people know the rest of that story. Wayne Bent was an ordained SDA pastor, that began to “hear directly from God” and his followers went with him to a remote area to await the soon return of Christ. My point is, the SDA church prepared both of these cults to form by teaching that the “remnant church” would have a prophet. Virtually all the followers of these men were from the SDA church. Some of the Branch Davidians were very educated people, but believed strongly in the SDA teachings about the remnant church and prophecy.
I found this podcast by listening to a year of polygamy. 46 yr member (from Utah) and never ever, ever, ever knew that polygamy started with Joseph Smith. I had been taught that it started with the saints coming across the plains because so many men died. Her podcast shook me. The cult documentaries got me fixated with polygamy and the kingston clan. Found Lindsay's podcast because Amber Rae mentioned it. I wasnt searching due to a faith crisis. Yet here I am now. Its new to me and this podcast has been SO helpful. ❤
Hi John, how about interview us Filipinos here in the Philippines? We also need to be heard, As you all know that the nature of being "mormons" is that, you are going to be cancelled right away when you speak the réal truth. THERE ARE SO MUCH REALLY POOR MEMBERS FROM REMOTED AREAS HERE WHO ARE STILL PAYING THEIR TITHES while they cannot feed themselves and yet they do not know the church owned a world class mall that costs BILLIONS!
@@mormonstorieshello, I appreciate your reply, if ever I would be given à chance to be heard, would you accept to interview my Former LDS Bishop Uncle instead? :)
When the founder of a religion has 40 wives +/- find me an argument that this person is not suffering (or rather making everyone else suffer) from their Narcissistic Personality Disorder and potentially even schizophrenia. "Hearing voices" says hi.
When you say “not a believer but still a member”, what does that mean exactly? Do you still pay 10% of your income to the church, and in that case, why?
Someone in the comments said it appears that J. S. had a very strong interest in fanny, and not just Alger. Sometimes you have to concoct an elaborate tale in order to get a little more tail.
In this discussion it is mentioned that Mother Teresa is so righteous. I would suggest you listen on you tube to Christopher Hitchens point of view regarding the righteous Mother Teresa. I will go with Christopher Hitchens point of view. Mother Teresa, in spite of her image, is not righteous
I’m not particularly fond of her, but Christopher Hitchens is a terrible source for basically anything. r/badhistory has a great post full of helpful sources pointing to everything he got wrong.
Thank you for providing another avenue for me to hear. I’m a member but always felt uneasy about DC 132. Of course, I was warned not to read anything “ anti-Mormon.” I’ve known wonderful members who have been emotionally supportive, and fun to be around. I truly believe a lot of Mormons are willingly ignorant, because they believe it’s more dangerous to be secularly informed, rather than “spiritually” informed. My only hope is that they change the doctrine and/ or denounce it. But I don’t see that happening either. As long as you guys keep doing the work you are, I feel hope. I have a place to turn when I genuinely feel consciously unsafe. This is the point. If it’s unsafe to question, something is off. I thought I’d be repulsed but I’m truly relieved as at peace. Thank you. This has been been bothering me for years ❤
If the church denounces it they will, in many ways, denounce Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other church leaders that practiced it. And, they would also be denouncing the new and everlasting covenant…D&C 132. I don’t see them ever denouncing it because it’s so intrinsically tied to Joseph Smith and the early church.
I joined late, so I'm only just catching up with the stream. Re: the subject of polygamy and Native American women - I learned recently that in the 1800s, many indigenous families were losing land ownership rights and the right to inherit land. One workaround for it was for Native American women to marry white men. So there was an incentive there for women to accept the situation of being some man's concubine - to keep their tribal lands.
Mike, thank you so much for all your hard work. I’ve learned so much from every episode. I appreciate John comments as well. More power to all of you.❤
Just joining now. I appreciate this initial discussion. Well done and respect for acknowledging the Priesthood in Alma 13 and owning up to correction. That shows you aren't just trying to attack the church and intentionally misrepresent things, but are trying to be fair and transparent. In my own research, I realise there are some things I am learning and have gotten wrong due to being unaware of deeper research. We all come to our own conclusions and interpretations. But I 100% agree there should be awareness and transparency. There's no question the church taught a whitewashed version which caused me to lose my faith at age 22. I am now a nuanced believer. I agree you should look at both sides- critics and apologists. I am still learning from both sides and both perspectives should be considered as we navigate our way through. Open dialogue, transparency, humility is what is needed and understanding between both sides and less divisiveness, like we saw in the Mason interview. Ultimately we can't agree and we must decide our own conclusion and interpretation, but we can learn from each other. As I'm researching and navigating my way through things on my channel tackling the truth claims and history, the voice and perspective of John and Mike is an important one, which must be taken into consideration. Thanks for all you do! p.s I've done my own series on polygamy so I'm interested in these episodes!
I think your quote about history in your opening of this set should also be put at the very beginning of this lds discussion series just a thought I loved it
Mike thank you for all you bring to us, your knowledge, hard work we appreciate. Thank you both I wish I knew all of this many years ago, makes me sick and mad for all the lies and hidden truths .
And like many others, you may regret all the time, money, and emotion you invested in the denomination through the years, right? And then they wonder why "people leave the Church, but they can't leave the Church alone."
One of the fascinating things I'm realizing is how fantastic the church was and is at setting themselves above others, only to find out they're no different or better then the rest.
@@merivalefreya7064 I can only imagine. In 1992 Harmston told me personally he had no intention of starting a group. Within a year or so he did that very thing and seemed to gain all the power. And now you tell me someone else actually spearheaded the whole thing?
Hi Sorry to intrude Love the show Thanks so much You’ve helped me more than I can thank you for I think maybe I can help with the “polyandry” and “endogamy” thing, so here I am “Gamete” is a specialized cell that unites with another gamete from a second organism within a species, including sperm and egg “Gamy” signifies a relationship of sufficient intimacy to imply the potential exchange of gametes. It helps to think of the number referring to the bond rather than the person, because otherwise it’s weird that there are 3 people in bigamy. Monogamy = single bond: one partner per partner, pair bonded. Does not differentiate homo from hetero Bigamy = double bond: one of one kind paired with two of the other kind Polygamy = plural bonds Poly-gyny = a variant of polygamy featuring one male and plural females Poly-andry = a variant of polygamy featuring one female and plural males Poly-amory, for semantic context, seeks by replacing the lexical root for a reproductive mating bond with the root for interpersonal affinity, commonly called love, to nullify the element of mandatory commitment and emphasize in its place continually refreshed consent rather than duty to bondage as the perpetuating force. Endo-gamy = cultural practice to marry inside a group. Exo-gamy = cultural practice to seek mates from outside the group Hope this helps Love what you do! Thanks!
If God delayed the revelation because "the world wasn't ready for it," then why couldn't Joseph get a likewise revelation about the abolition of slavery or the admission of black men to the priesthood? Polygamy was probably the most shocking thing in the minds of 19th century people, you'd think the abolition of slavery and black men in the priesthood would be far more palatable! Yet nothing... this seems bizarre to me.
Important context also that wasn't touched upon - we have an idea today that people were getting married really young. That's untrue. The average age for brides in the late 1700s and well into the 1800s was 24 years old, and grooms would be about 27. SA of the servant class, whether that was paid domestic labor or enslaved domestic labor, was really common and at the same time, something people spoke about openly. There is no good explanation for an older married man having relations with an underage woman who is part of his household staff EXCEPT THAT IT IS AN AB*SE OF POWER - religious authority, holding economic wellbeing over her head etc. It could not have been an 'affair' it's ab*se.
1831 is an interesting year in context of Mary Rollins Lightner. She reports that Joseph Smith told her God wanted him to take her as his first plural wife when she was 12 years old, which could have been April of 1830 to 1831. But the balance of that probably goes to 1830, and she was 12, and he said that God had given her to him. I find her story especially relevant because her testimony of polygamy in a BYU address is one of the most often cited sources about how women were defending it.
The reason they were discussing marrying Indian women was because they were kicked out of the Indian Territory bordering Missouri. The federal agents in charge threatened them with physical harm if they came back. They could enter if they were delivering goods or had family there, but that was it. As missionaries, they didn’t have goods to sell, but they could always marry someone, as described by Ezra Booth. Martin Harris was apparently told he should marry one even though he was still legally married, but he didn’t do it.
@@randyjordan5521 Awesome, thanks! That's some fascinating information. I'll be sure to get that book too, "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri" by Stephen C LeSueur.
@@yorgasor wow, so many interesting stories just "popping up" that I've never heard before! Lol, and of course they must all be true, because no one would ever publish false information.
Definitely prefer the conversation with the two of you. Always appreciate John’s comments with his background in psychology. And props to Mike for all his thorough research.
You are right John . Jesus does not need priesthood. Growing up in different religion. We were taught everything from the Bible some of the scriptures I found read in Book of Mormon is very familiar to the Bible
I think that when Emma caught Joseph the first time, and he went to Michigan and wrote the passage that polygamy was wrong was because Emma gave him an ultimatum, get polygamy out of the church or else. All though he was able to make a big enough statement to get back in her graces, it didn’t last.
I think JS knew exactly what he was doing when he had Jacob include the exception about raising up seed. 2 Nephi likely came later chronically. He had plans, and found a way to allow it.
You say in this episode that episodes build on each other; how do I find episodes 1 - 23? Is it episodes 1649-1673? Are all episodes in this series about polygamy? How do I identify the episodes that came before this one? Is there a playlist? I didn't see one that seemed to be just about polygamy; if there is one, what is the name of it? Is it the shorts?
I've commented before about being a Presbyterian preacher's kid. My dad was a sociopathic charmer who was violently abusive at home. He was also a womanizer or perhaps a sex addict, who had affairs with sex workers, women in the congregation, and random women he met in the community. My mom didn't know (or was in denial) until the time he chose a congregant as crazy as himself who exposed him, and he lost everything. This episode is painful to listen to; why are churches so often safe harbors for predators of this type?
1:37:00 This doctrine is something I wonder how many active members genuinely believe (or know about). Are most women, who are aware of the doctrine, hoping that it won't bother them to have to share a husband? I know a lot who are in denial or rely on that "it will all be worked out in the end" and their new eternal perspective that no longer sees through a glass darkly will help them accept it.
@@boysrus61 then you also learned that your husband ultimately doesn't need your permission to have more wives "given" to him in the next life. Haha, was it Joseph Fielding Smith that taught there's no genitalia in heaven? I know a lot of members who believe that, but it kind of goes against the heterosexual structure this doctrine is all based upon.
More and more evidence is pointing to Mother Teresa not being a good person, so it might be worth looking into that before mentioning her in future videos. Love the stream otherwise, thank you for all the work you put into bringing us such vast quantities of information in one place.
The discussion was potentially great - but the young man doesn't stop for breath! He is articulate on the content but I felt I was on a train speeding between stations,
I’m a descendant of polygamous Mormons but not Mormon myself. I am interested less in how Joseph Smith dressed up his extramarital affairs (I was convinced of that long ago) and more interested in how rank-and-file members were affected by trying to practice a sincerely held faith. I’m sure there were many early LDS members (my LDS ancestors came to Utah from the usual European countries in handcart companies) who fully believed they were doing God’s will in participating in polygamy.
My understanding of polygamy comes not so much from a study of LDS Church history or a deep dive into the doctrine but rather from the family history either recounted in journals, personal writings, and in the case of knowing the last LDS generation that was born into Polygamy, my two Grandfathers. I will state that I am not a member of the LDS Church. It is well-known and somewhat celebrated in the Ezekiel and Julia Hills Johnson family that Joseph Smith took one of their daughters as a plural wife; he asked for another daughter but turned him down as she was in love with another Man. Benjamin F. Johnson, recalls that when Joseph talked to his mother Julia Hills Johnson, about the revelation on plural marriage, he told her that the first thought was to come and ask her some of her daughters Benjamin wrote that "I can now understand that the period alluded was at Kirtland. The other point I was always taught was that Joseph Smith and the early prophets practiced polygamy, and it always surprises me when people/members say they did not know. It has always been part of my heritage, as a matter of fact. I never was told to be ashamed of this heritage; my Grandfather was proud to be from a polygamous family and would talk lovely of the "first wife" as a second mother. To me, his half brothers and sisters were just called Aunt and Uncle. I will add that he would condemn those who practiced polygamy, like the Allred and LeBarron families, because they did not practice plural marriage as ordained by God. Here is a quote from my 3rd Great Grandmother, Susan Ellen Johnson Martineau: "It was in Ramus that Joseph taught my father and grandmother, Julia Hills Johnson, the principal of plural marriage, both of whom accepted it. To my certain knowledge, the Prophet married my Aunt Almera Johnson as a plural wife with my father's consent, living as such until his martyrdom. She died a few years ago in Parowan, Iron County, Utah, and was proud of her union with him. Joseph desired my uncle to explain the law to another aunt of mine and have her consent to be sealed to him, but she refused, preferring to marry the young man and then paying her attention. She did marry the young man and, according to her conversation with me, regretted it all her life. When I was but a child, I had a positive testimony that Joseph was a Prophet of God, and as I looked at him, he seemed to me like a heavenly being. And at the age of eighteen, I had a positive testimony that the principle of plural marriage, as revealed through Joseph, was a pure and holy one." In conclusion, I declare myself a living witness to the fact that Joseph Smith, the Prophet, not only taught but also practiced plural marriage, anyone to the contrary notwithstanding." Polygamy has never been a faith crisis for me; it is like the word of wisdom and the countless revelations that are found in the Doctrine and Covenants; you either believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet or he was not. From my Family History, I see the good, bad and ugly. I will say that, for the most part, my grandfathers did their best to love each wife equally and to be loving fathers. Yet I also can see where some wanted a young wife and how this changed their relationship with their wives. I also see the strength of my Grandmothers by either divorcing or demanding respect; some just left and went to live with their own children. Yet others have shown love for all the children born into their plural marriage and show charity towards the other wife. Having been raised by those from Mormon Colonies in Mexico, I see they were all trying to live the "Restored Gospel" and follow Jesus Christ as well as they could. They were honest men and women who had pure hearts.
Saying that each successive church president is a prophet who receives revelation / inspiration from deity could EASILY be interpreted as complete blasphemy, indicating that deity is very wishy-washy, indecisive, compulsive, capricious, and even flaky. Look at the history of not only polygamy, but also nature/makeup of the godhead, name of the church, race and related curses, Adam-God doctrine, blood atonement, ordinances for offspring of "gay" parents, etc., etc.
Constant contradiction can have the effect of increasing the propaganda value of any organization that depends on getting people's attention and THEN indoctrinating them and turning them into its slaves. Because when people get confused by contradiction they will probably go to the organization to have it explained. When that happens, indoctrination continues in response to this additional contact with the person to be turned into a slave.
My friends and family would say that Joseph being able to riff off a 3200 word revelation is the evidence that it came from god not that he had a gift and skills. Or they would say yea he was gifted… with the power of god. I don’t know how to respond to that. How would you respond to that?
@@randyjordan5521 i guess your not familiar with the book of Daniel in the bible. Daniel and his fellow jewish brothers were trying to keep the law of worshipping their God, when conspiring men in the kings court made prayer illegal unless it was to worship the designated idol. They broke the law and hence Daniel was thrown to the lions. In Jesus day, it was against Jewish law to do anything on the sabbath, so Jesus purposely did healings (which were against the law) Laws of God frequently are not the same as the "law of the land" Because the government's of this world are mostly under Satans power.
Are there any children resulting from Joseph's polygamy? My TBM husband likes to Argue that these were Nonsexual arrangements. However these poor teen girls were not allowed to date after being locked down.
I think that you raise a very important point about the lives of the girls/women who were married to Joseph Smith, which often gets lost in discussions of polygamy. While there is evidence from some of the girls'/womens' journals that the marriages were indeed consummated, EVEN IF apologists want to argue that the marriages were not sexual, they still have to be willing to endorse the idea that Joseph Smith was entitled to STEAL THE FUTURES of these girls/women. Joseph's wives couldn't date, or marry the men they wanted (even when some had pre-existing betrothals/marriages), or have children in marriages of their choosing. If the sealings of these girls/women were TRULY NON-SEXUAL in intent, then they should NOT have been done in the form of MARRIAGES that precluded marriage/sex with ANY OTHER PARTNERS. Instead, truly non-sexual sealings could have been done in the form of an ADOPTIONS, which would have allowed the girls/women to be sealed spiritually into Joseph's family WITHOUT their having to sacrifice their future ability to marry and live normal lives. When apologists try to sugarcoat this issue, what they are really saying is that they not only deny the evidence that Joseph's marriages were consummated, but that they are also comfortable with the idea that the girls/women may have been pressured or coerced into nun-like celibacy and the denial of their sexual and reproductive agency and self-determination. That's an odd position to take, given that LDS theology places so overwhelming an emphasis on their concept of PROCREATIVE marriage. To be clear, I do NOT believe, based on the evidence, that all of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were unconsummated; I just think that even that possibility does not solve the moral problem of Joseph's plural marriages for apologists, particularly when there is ample evidence of the coercive and spiritually abusive tactics that were used on many girls/women to force them into marriage with Joseph.
That's what I find really perplexing. I don't think they have found any children from other wives which makes no sense if the purpose was to bring spirits to earth. Given the lack of birth control at that time you would think he would have at least had one accidental pregnancy with one of them if he was having sexual relationships with them.
I don't think anyone will ever know for certain. A faithful Mormon-owned, BYU-connected "Molecular Genealogy Foundation" conducted some "DNA studies" (based on Y chromosome analysis) of just a few 19th century Mormons who were rumored to have been children of Joseph Smith and concluded that they were not. I have serious doubts about how reliable their findings were, or the provenance of the samples they used (and I don't think they were actually digging up the bodies of the actual rumored offspring, but rather were getting samples from living descendants a few generations removed). There seem to be many limitations that they glossed over when they announced their conclusions. Furthermore, I doubt that there is a Joseph Smith, Jr. marker that would simultaneously be sufficiently distinct from, for example, a Hyrum Smith or Joseph Smith, Sr. marker and also be inevitably and unmistakably present in any descendant of Prophet Joe to make it possible to conclusively rule out the possibility of a person being a descendant of Joseph Smith through a woman other than Emma.
The "non-sexual arrangement" thing literally makes no sense. First of all, what would be the purpose of entering into a non-sexual marriage arrangement with Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon itself clearly states that the only exception to the monogamy requirement is to "raise up seed" (which inevitably would require a sexual arrangement). The "dynastic purpose" argument put forward unofficially by apologists makes no sense. If the idea is to seal families together for eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom, there is no logical reason why it would have to be done by way of Joe marrying a young daughter of that family. It could be done by way of an adoption sealing (adopted son, or adopted brother, etc.) or any other type of family relationship sealing. No need to mess up the life of a young woman by claiming her as an eternal bride (meaning that no other man could marry her for both time AND eternity). Furthermore, all of the subsequent polygamist prophets obviously had carnal relations with their plural wives. Why do so many Mormons think that was okay and based on a "revelation" that Joseph Smith delivered, while simultaneously thinking that Joseph Smith was somehow too pure to practice what he preached?
The Book of Mormon verses in Jacob sure seem to indicate that Joseph had polygamy on the brain from the start, to some degree. My theory is that he was wrestling with a desire for multiple women that he thought was unclean and initially tried to push it aside. But over time as he gained more and more followers and power, he found ways to justify giving in the urge. And eventually, he drank his own kook-aid and convinced himself that if the desire lingered it must be from God.
What is so crazy is the Bible says that God doesn't change, so he's not going to constantly be changing his guidelines to fit the law of the land, having prophets contradict instructions from previous prophets, like regarding the color of skin, of instructions on marriage from one man & one women to one man and multiple wives or one women and multiple men(polygamy, polyandry). He's not going to create another text that contradicts the Bible he already (Numbers 23:19, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17), Jesus/Yeshua doesn't change: (Heb. 13:8, John 1:1-4). God clearly says not to add to or take away from scripture. (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Rev. 22:18-19). So JS already violated scripture. That must be why JS had to say all texts were corrupt so he could include new doctrines that suited him. Then according to scripture, JS doesn't fit the requirements of a prophet because he made all kinds of proclamations that never happened. Scripture says if a prophet prophesies something and says it was of God and it doesn't come to pass, than, it's not of God. Deut. 18:20-22 Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Please stop the lipstick on a pig reference. John you are using it every episode lately. The irony that this is an insult frequently used toward women who are not the standard of thin and beautiful on an episode about women's relations with the church seems to be lost. This episode really needs a woman's perspective.
Well if this is the past and its not practiced any more then they have corrected a wrong. Is that right or not. Joseph smith did wrong , Brigham Young done wrong they are answering to GOD for their Sins . We just have go make sure we do not continue this behavior going forward.
I do not believe in polygamy or polyandrous i believe we are to be married 1 man and 1 woman forever and do not cheat on each other and all that poly stuff is wrong and NOT what God teaches or taught. That is mans desires and its wrong.
Thanks Mike n John. Question Could the human practice of sex during pregnancy be the unconscious fetal memory fueling polygamy? All other mammals are programmed not to have sex after conception as an example to the free will wielding humans. The Original sin allegory brought the death sentence but no real explanation as to what this sin was. Delicious to the taste and very desirable sounds like something sexy to me. Our first impressions of the sexual energy inutero is fueling the resistance to two is company, three is a crowd that engaging in polygamy etc brings to the surface through the naval. Please. Dig deeper. Like Mike, I am a nonbeliever member and like John, milt generational mormon
It is a long drawn out paper process to be removed from church roles. In other words they make sure it is as miserable as possible. Most people just quit going to this satanic cult
Polygamy, polyandry and polygyny from the Greek words for many ( πολύς/polus) + marriage (γάμος/gamos) or man (ἀνήρ/aner [ᾰ̓νδρός/andros in genitive form]) or woman (γυνή/gyne [as in gynecologist])
Your channel popped up on my feed. I thought at last SOMEONE besides Dr. Bryan Ardis would tell the truth about the Mormon cult. But NO! You are even still studying the phony doctrines and covenants and quoting them as fact. I am going to unsubscribe from your channel.
If Joseph was having all this sex with all of his plural wives, then where are the offspring? We know he wasn't sterile (Emma was seemingly always pregnant). My understanding is there has been DNA testing & research done too try and identify any potential offspring from him. My understanding is that the results of these DNA tests have all come back negative. Mabey the RLDS church's position should be taken more seriously.
Good opening video! I think you've covered it well, Fanny Alger can be interpreted as a plural marriage or adultery depends on what you make of the documents, but either way is a troubling the way Joseph did it without Emma's knowing. Interesting theory that possibly Joseph married other men's wives incase children popped up, although that's speculation you could argue that it is a speculative theory that he did it to appease the angel and not break Emma's heart. I don't think there's any unambiguous evidence when it comes to polyandry. Probably the best evidence was Josephine Lyon being Joseph's daughter but DNA shows she's not. You could interpret it two ways that Sylvia had sex with both Joseph and Windsor and didn't know who the Father was or she's Joseph's daughter in a adopted spiritual sense and their marriage was just a sealing 'non sexual'. I do disagree on the church teaching polygamy is required for exaltation. I've done some research on that one www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation This site on fair shows early church leaders not teaching plural marriage will be required for exaltation but celestial marriage and the verses in D&C 132 talking about celestial marriage for exaltation does not mean plural marriage 'The revelation further explains how a husband and “a wife” will be exalted if they are sealed by proper authority and they live worthily: “Verily I say unto you, if a man marry A WIFE by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, . . . [it] shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things” (D&C 132:19). Modern polygamists are all condemned because their marriages are not authorized. See D&C 132:18, 38' I interpret that you can be exalted without being married to multiple wives and we won't all be forced to be polygamists. Very interesting point about Joseph dictating 3200 words without using the seer stone/urim and thummim and Joseph having this ability to memorise and dictate long scriptural text. I suppose an apologist could argue the Holy Ghost can bring all things to your remembrance, but it was a good observation nevertheless. I look forward to part 2
My late husband went from mainsteam LDS - convert at 19 in Amsterdam to 12 years ago deciding to identify as a Joseph Smith Mormon. He said he thought about it long before we married and never told me. I was a convert in 1997. He was insistent on having three wives. #2 came from a large plyg family in se MO. She died before they were sealed so it was done by proxy. #3 was half way around the world and half his age. She "converted" and they were sealed. She just wanted a white guy. We would have been married 25 years next month. After he died two years ago I found the photos and an ecplicit video. Just when I think I am over the shock of the betrayal, I go into a deep dark hole. No one suspects it, but no one know what goes on behind closed doors. I binge watch Mormon Stories and the other podcasts. I know that I am not alone. I submitted my formal request to be removed from the LDS roles a few weeks ago. Thank you for being here. You matter and I love you all.
I’m sorry this was done to you. You sound like a strong person. ❤
Thank you Pamela
Dang! That sucks and I am sorry that these new findings keep happening to you. Take care of yourself. Now is a good time to shed the old skin, deconstruct old views, and emerge better off! So sorry.
Hugs to you. Live free!
I’m so sorry Barbara. I hope that you can find peace.
I keep having to remind myself that the family and missionaries who got me into the church weren’t necessarily lying to me or purposely trying to manipulate me, but that they had likewise been lied to. So much deception and willful ignorance. Thank you both for the time you put into these episodes.
I’m empathetic to your comment about lying. I think we have to accept the fact the Church packaged their story in a way to cover the basic doctrinal tenets of the “restoration”. Even today, Gospel Doctrine is a carefully prepared story. They never go deep. Many in the Church don’t care and aren’t historically interested in what actually happened.
Randy Jordan... this is exactly what I was taught as well.
So Joseph smith did not go to war. He is the only one left and decided to do polygamy ..weirdo .
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This episode reminds me of something my mom always said to me. There's no comfort in the growth zone and no growth in the comfort zone. She was a strong proponent of confronting difficult things because that's how you learn and grow.
This is a good quote, thanks for sharing!
Excellent, wisdom personified!!
Thank you for this podcast. I’m not Mormon, but always wanting to learn more. I’m non-denominational. My church encourages researching and reading the Bible. Studying and learning more about God’s true nature. I have never been told what to believe. I’ve discovered it for myself. Thank you for all you do. It solidifies my faith and helps me. Your voice is soothing. Thank you.
I saw a quote from someone, I think it may have been in the Netflix documentary but they said something along the lines of
"I think 99% or Mormons would be appalled by Warren Jeffs. But I think hes the closest to practicing what Joseph Smith was actually doing."
I believe that if Joseph Smith were here, he would recognize the FLDS as the church he created and the mainstream church as something he never conceived of.
Thank you for covering this important foundational subject to the LDS religion. Mike and a John you did a stellar job covering this difficult topic. Clearly, polygamy was a mess as evidenced by the information presented in the podcast and the church comments in the Gospel Topics Essay’s. The doctrine was completely mismanaged my Joseph Smith because of the necessity for secrecy and deceit. My personal opinion is this is ultimately why Joseph was murdered. Anyone who thinks polygamy wasn’t about ecclesiastical power and sex is naive. Polygamy and it’s foundation and ultimate practice is horrible stain on Mormonism. To any believer listening to this podcast and reading my post, here’s my challenge to you:
read every word of Section 132 and tell yourself you actually believe this is the word of God. Read it together with your wife, if you are married, and after look at each other and say, yes agree with this section, I believe this is the word of God . . .
1:20:55 Clarification based on the Greek etymology: polygamy literally translates to "many marriages/spouses," so it is not specific to sex or gender. Polygyny literally means "many women" and polyandry means "many men," from the Greek words "gyne," woman, and "andros," man.
That quote about history (near the beginning of the podcast) is really on point.
And those lesson manuals that you mentioned (IIRC, it was the "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" series that came out several years ago) really drove home to me that the leaders of the church were intentionally engaging in deceptive practices.
All of the polygamist presidents of the church were presented in those manuals in ways that implied that they were monogamous and only the heads of families created in monogamous relationships. Even family photos of those presidents were included that showed the president with only one wife (the actual legal wife) and the children of that union.
Not only was this approach in the manuals obviously dishonest (as should have been clear to any member who knew the real history of those presidents), but it was also heaping insult on top of injury to those plural wives who were essentially erased from memory by the church and by the creators of those lesson manuals (which were no doubt approved at the highest levels of leadership). All but the official legally married one wife (usually the first wife or the next legally married wife following the death of the first wife) were flushed down the memory toilet by those "lesson manuals".
Imagine going into those often horrific plural marriage unions because you are told by the church that it is God's will and a commandment. Then imagine what those women would have felt if they had later learned that their (great-great or great-great-great) grandchildren would be encouraged by the church to believe that these women who had been plural wives should not be recognized publicly as having ever been married to their famous ancestor (great-great or great-great-great) grandfather and that neither those plural wives nor any of the children that they bore were worthy of being mentioned in connection with or associated with or shown in photos with the illustrious grandfather who had been a president of the church and only the one "real" wife and her children were deemed appropriate and presentable for official lesson manual purposes.
Yes 👏🏻
guys I've watched this entire series ... great job ... I'm a Catholic and 63 yes old ... and I've learned more about the bible and Jesus from you all rather than the church I was born into ... I e bn looking for this info for a long time ... can't thank you enough ... this particular series must have taken countless hours to complete ... also your info has led me to alot of other great humans ... watched Dan Vogel last night... what a smart man wowzer thanks ya all👍💙
So would you like to meet the missionaries or what? A lot of ex Catholics make their way into Mormonism, looking to make sense of a traditional religious worldview, and theological answers that the mainstream groups don't provide in their minds.
If you want to learn more about Catholicism, look for the bible in a year and catechism in a year on youtube and podcasts. I'm not trying to lead people down the road of Catholicism, just offering another option for learning more.
I'm really enjoying this series. I have it playing in the background while i'm doing repetitive chores or driving. I appreciate how much info is here and how well it's put together.
The Catholic church did many cruel and inhuman acts to the indigenous people of Canada. The Catholic Church helped in destroying the indigenous languages across the country of Canada.
Great content!
You speculated about the time frame for the Fannie Alger affair and I submit that it had to be prior to the Spring of 1835 because the original section 101 was a result of rumors of that relationship and the 1835 edition of the D&C contained that section.
I also think that it is likely that the affair was going on for a while before Emma busted them in the act.
Show me someone with a DUI and I will show you someone that has been drinking and driving for a while, prior to getting caught.
Thank you everyone for your kindness and support. I feel your love.
When I was invetigating the Church and having the discussions, I asked about Polygamy and was told that "In order for women to travel across the plains they had to married, there was not enough men to go around which is why they married more than one woman"
That’s exactly what I was told as well.
Endless theories concocted to justify whatever.
I was told similar BS when the missionaries taught me. They also said they were taking care of widows and the marriages were not sexual. What a load of whitewashed lies.
Great podcast! The content is important for every LDS, problematic is an understatement. I always feel physically sick after learning more about the Polygamy aspect of this church, though it doesn't mean I should avoid educating myself. You can bet I'll be watching again next week. Thank you for putting it together and putting it out there!
I sometimes wonder what a faithful Mormon would think if they heard the following story:
There once was a man named Joe who lived in a house that was located between a hard-working farmer on one side and a successful bakery on the other side. One day, he was angrily confronted at the same time by both the farmer and the owner of the bakery. The farmer accused him of stealing some of the farmer's watermelons. Joe was in a tricky situation because, when he opened the door to the farmer and the bakery owner, he was holding a slice of watermelon in his hand and three watermelons could be seen on the floor behind him. The owner of the bakery accused him of stealing two cherry pies. Again, Joe was in a tricky situation because not only was the fragrance of the cherry pies very deliciously present in Joe's home, two cherry pies could easily be seen on a countertop in Joe's kitchen.
"Well, what do you have to say for yourself, Joe?" the farmer and the bakery owner asked, virtually in unison.
Joe looked a bit nervous, but then pulled a piece of paper from his pocket and showed it to the angry neighbors. "This is a letter I got from the King of the World just yesterday. It says to me: "Joe, since you've been asking whether it's right or wrong to take your neighbors' watermelons and pies, I've decided to give you an answer. The answer is that it's okay for YOU to do it and in special cases for other people to do it if YOU tell them that I told you that it's okay for them to do it too. But otherwise it would ordinarily be bad for someone to do such a thing without my permission. As King of the World, I hereby confirm that you do have my permission and, furthermore, I command you to take your neighbors' watermelons and pies when you feel moved to do so because you are really important, Joe, and you've always been one of my most faithful and obedient subjects. And if your neighbors ever complain, you tell them that they will have to answer to me, the King of the World!!!" Joe then pointed to a signature at the bottom of the note. "Look right there! It's even signed by the King of the World!!!"
Of course I'm sure that any faithful Mormon would think that this is a ridiculous story and of course the point of the story would be that the character named Joe was (a) hoping to get away with bad behavior by claiming that a very high authority that nobody could see or contact directly not only told him that it was okay but even commanded him to do it and (b) hoping that his neighbors were gullible enough to be fooled by such a ridiculous story.
When it comes to the doctrine of polygamy in Mormonism, although it should be obvious to most people, it can be important to remind ourselves that God never said a word about any of it. The members of the church were simply told by a guy named Joe that God told Joe that having relationships with multiple women (young, older, married, unmarried) was a good thing for Joe to do. D&C 132 is basically Joseph Smith's equivalent of a letter from the "King of the World" saying that it was okay for him to steal his neighbors' watermelons and cherry pies. Then Joe used his letter to give similar license to key allies (such as Brigham Young) and so on...and the next thing you know you've got two whole generations living weird and often hellish lives based on a scam "revelation" from the "King of the World" because they took Joe and Briggy's word for it that it was genuine.
strange to think that i owe my very existence to this particular con.
@@senorbb2150 I haven't seen any official study on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of the Mormon population of the "Mormon Corridor" states (Utah, Idaho, Arizona) can trace their very existence back to Mormon polygamy on at least one parent's side of the family.
I am befuddled. I was born in 1960. I grew up here in the SL Valley. I was taught that Joseph Smith & Brigham Young were polygamists. The Jeff’s lived at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon .. they were Mormon Polygamists.
How did this polygamous history get buried. There are many many members my age. They KNOW this history.
I don’t understand how the history got lost.
@@jeannemarie5908 The history of Brigham Young being a practicing polygamist was never really buried or forgotten. It was just de-emphasized and the topic studiously avoided by leaders for the past several decades. Most members from multi-generational Mormon families know that Brigham Young was a polygamist and also know that D&C 132 was the "revelation" that Joseph Smith came up with to justify polygamy. What is really weird, though, is that for much of the 20th century and into the current century, the church avoided any mention of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. It's one of those situations where two opposing ideas are held simultaneously and neither of them can be repudiated...so the answer is to avoid the subject altogether. On one hand the church and many members have always wanted to believe that Joseph Smith was too pure and righteous to engage in plural marriage and too honest to lie about not doing it while he was actually doing it. On the other hand, they had no choice but to admit that Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and many other of the top leaders of the Utah church were practicing polygamists and so they had to justify them based on teachings and revelations from...drum roll...Joseph Smith. They trace the origin of the practice back to Joseph Smith but don't want to think of Joseph Smith as actually having practiced it. It's truly a form of religious derangement. I suspect that there are many young Mormons who don't know the history. Most of the older Mormons do know it, but treat it like a crazy uncle hidden in the attic...i.e. something not to be talked about.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N
“A crazy uncle hidden in the attic.” Thanks for the chuckle. 🤭
Thanks for your explanation. I grew up understanding that polygamy was definitely part of the doctrine and it came from Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and other ‘off the beaten path’ beliefs (Mormon Doctrine) which caused friction where ever he moved his community to. The Mormons wanted to hold true to their beliefs so the kept looking for the right place to live in peace practicing their religion. Joseph Smith ended up dead at the jail. Brigham Young took over and moved the saints west until they came through the canyon .. looked out over the valley and he proclaimed, “This is the place!” Hence the monument there now.
The settlers practiced polygamy because they were not part of the US. They were free to live as they believed. Utah became a state and they had to make polygamy illegal. So, they did and in essence polygamy went underground for some and others refused to be told what to do by the government and lived polygamy in the open.
However, I always believed the doctrine was the same .. some people just didn’t practice polygamy, some practiced it covertly and some practiced it openly.
I can see where it becomes a problematic doctrinal issue not to be discussed. I guess I just always had the attitude of ‘live and let live’. Therefore, not giving it much thought. Except when some man wanted me to join his polygamous family. No. Didn’t join. But, that is how prevalent polygamy is ..
What’s interesting about the comment- if you feel good it comes from God, when you feel yucky it’s from Satan. I always truly believed that and it was also in my patriarchal blessing. That I would know when I was presented with something or a situation if it was good or bad.
In 2020 my son was on a mission and his mission President told them they could read the saints book. He emailed us asking us to send it to him for Christmas. Since we sent it to him, we decided- my husband and I, to also listen to it on tape. I am not super interested in church history books so I didn’t listen to it at all until one weekend we were at our cabin and my husband had it on full blast on our cabin speakers. It was right at the polygamy part and When I heard the part about him marrying the 14 year old girl and that he not only lied to Emma, but then lied to her again and in front of her had a fake wedding since he was already married and she didn’t know. I literally stopped the tape and said to my husband what?? What?? No, this is not okay, this makes me physically sick- this does not feel like it’s from god. God wouldn’t ask a man to lie to his wife or marry a girl in his home so young. Of course my husband said- well god told him to do it so we don’t question it”. Over the next two years that simple part of the saints book bothered me sooo badly and I finally came to the conclusion that the I was always told that I would know what was good and bad and that bad is from Satan and the saints book wasn’t a anti Mormon book, the church put it out. So what Joseph smith did WAS from Satan. I had even come to the conclusion that god has JS killed because he has led the church astray. Again, this is only based on knowing he married one person besides Emma and he lied to her. This summer- 8 weeks ago, I finally read the CES letter and I felt sooo dirty for doing it but I felt even more disgusting reading and finding out ALL of the polygamy and polyandry that JS did- of course I also searched the church essays and was appalled. So it was by the church’s own hand that I knew what I was reading was from Satan. That js was from Satan and what he did was. If I had never read the saints book 2 years ago, I would have never even been put on this journey- so i am grateful for the church for putting out a book- even if it was so white washed and soooooo not complete truth, but it is what ultimately brought me to the truth and I have now left the church. Ironically 4 of my 6 kids left before I had- and tried to tell me about the church essays before this summer and I said no- I don’t want to know. I have since apologized to them for not listening and also for raising them in a church that has done so much damage to them mentally. My husband and I are currently trying to figure out marriage out- he is a huge Joseph smith fan, like he believes all the things JS did was okay and he idolizes him. It makes me sick how much he’s doubled down on reading all the apologist books about him since I told him about what I found. I don’t know if our marriage will survive this - but we are taking the next year, while our second youngest son who is in a mission, to figure out if we can work through these issues now in our marriage- him being in and me being out. So far it’s not going well. 😢
I’m so sorry Christy.
Run fast and far from these doctrines; if your husband stays a Mormon, then there is your sign and walk away, and if he wants to follow the truth, he will follow you. Don't let this bogus church ruin your life, as it is idolatry to worship something, not of God. The Trinity is the absolute truth; Joseph signed his fate and the fate of any followers of him because of his lack of knowledge. It is why his people get destroyed, leaning way too much on their understanding 🤦🏼♂️
Have you considered asking Heavenly Father what you should do?
@@tamaraelsberry6630 of course. Why do you ask?
@@tamaraelsberry6630 I guess I’m wondering why you assume I haven’t? Not all people who leave the church- leave God. A good majority still believe in a higher power. Do I believe god is a man? A women? Both? I don’t know that because I’ve never met God. But I do know there is one and I speak to God daily/ everyday. All day. I’ve never had a more spiritual connection to God then I do now and that only came from leaving a church that tried to tell me who God was on their terms. Not allowing me to find my own relationship with God & define it for myself.
I love hearing Mike & John. These conversations/discussions are fantastic and have been helping numerous people deconstruct bit by bit. I appreciate these episodes and I've heard from many who truly value these episodes.
1:38:36 I am disgusted by the idea of being , essentially, a breeding tool basically for some man in the eternities. They can sugar it up to be a goddess or whatnot but essentially I’m being passed around like an item you can own. And then used to populate …. Just doesn’t ring true and it’s pretty misogynistic
I agree disgusting
I recently went on a tour of Brigham Young's winter home in St. George. They only mentioned one wife the entire time. At the end I asked if any of his other wives came to visit and they finally acknowledged his polygamy. If it weren't for me bringing it up the other nonmormon visitors would have never known Brigham Young had more than 1 wife.
I went there last summer and thought the same thing. Glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed it. I didn’t get to ask the question because the missionary guide had a giant school group to attend to.
Lie upon lie...It's ery frustrating to hear how they try to pretend and cover up the real life of the early LDS prophets and leaders. Glad you asked:)
As one of your loyal, never Mormon subscribers, I wanted to mention something with regard to 2 of the cult leaders mentioned at about minute 26:00, David Koresh (Branch Davidian) and Wayne Bent. You mention they along with other cult leaders had “special revelation” from God about having sex with many women and children. These 2 that were mentioned were splinter groups from the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) church.
I was raised SDA. They had a female prophetess, Ellen G White. Ellen had her “first vision from God” at age 17 in the 1844 (an important year for Mormons).
As a side note, Ellen never taught polygamy, just the opposite, she seemed disgusted by sex, insisting that even married couples should only have sex for the purpose of having babies.
A major teaching of Seventh-day Adventists is that the “remnant church” (the one and only, true church in the last days) will be the “spirit of prophecy” (the gift of prophecy or a modern day prophet that hears directly from God).
SDAs believe to this day that EGW was that prophet, even though in the early 1980s it was discovered that she plagiarized much of her writings (66 books in total).
Well in the decades after EGW died, some began to wonder why the “remnant church” (SDAs) didn’t have a new prophet after she died.
A guy named Victor Houteff began to teach, as a member of the SDAs, that they SHOULD have a current prophet and he believed he was that guy. He splintered out of the SDA church with his followers and formed a movement which ultimately became the Branch Davidians.
David Koresh (born Vernon Howell) had a grandmother that was SDA and another was JW. He was most influenced by the SDA grandmother and became obsessed with the book of Revelation.
He heard of this splinter group from the SDAs and made a pilgrimage to Waco to learn more about the book of Revelations.
The movement had gone through several prophets as they grew old and died, by the time Vernon Howell gets to them, the widow of the latest prophet is leading the small group. He charmed her and she eventually declared him to be the next prophet. Most people know the rest of that story.
Wayne Bent was an ordained SDA pastor, that began to “hear directly from God” and his followers went with him to a remote area to await the soon return of Christ.
My point is, the SDA church prepared both of these cults to form by teaching that the “remnant church” would have a prophet.
Virtually all the followers of these men were from the SDA church. Some of the Branch Davidians were very educated people, but believed strongly in the SDA teachings about the remnant church and prophecy.
I found this podcast by listening to a year of polygamy. 46 yr member (from Utah) and never ever, ever, ever knew that polygamy started with Joseph Smith. I had been taught that it started with the saints coming across the plains because so many men died. Her podcast shook me.
The cult documentaries got me fixated with polygamy and the kingston clan. Found Lindsay's podcast because Amber Rae mentioned it. I wasnt searching due to a faith crisis. Yet here I am now. Its new to me and this podcast has been SO helpful. ❤
Hi John, how about interview us Filipinos here in the Philippines? We also need to be heard,
As you all know that the nature of being "mormons" is that, you are going to be cancelled right away when you speak the réal truth. THERE ARE SO MUCH REALLY POOR MEMBERS FROM REMOTED AREAS HERE WHO ARE STILL PAYING THEIR TITHES while they cannot feed themselves and yet they do not know the church owned a world class mall that costs BILLIONS!
I would love to interview you.
mormonstories@gmail.com
@@mormonstorieshello, I appreciate your reply, if ever I would be given à chance to be heard, would you accept to interview my Former LDS Bishop Uncle instead? :)
@@hazelynginet6867 of course he would!
When the founder of a religion has 40 wives +/- find me an argument that this person is not suffering (or rather making everyone else suffer) from their Narcissistic Personality Disorder and potentially even schizophrenia. "Hearing voices" says hi.
When you say “not a believer but still a member”, what does that mean exactly?
Do you still pay 10% of your income to the church, and in that case, why?
Someone in the comments said it appears that J. S. had a very strong interest in fanny, and not just Alger. Sometimes you have to concoct an elaborate tale in order to get a little more tail.
Thanks for making the Melchizedek correction! That definitely shows integrity.
In this discussion it is mentioned that Mother Teresa is so righteous. I would suggest you listen on you tube to Christopher Hitchens point of view regarding the righteous Mother Teresa. I will go with Christopher Hitchens point of view. Mother Teresa, in spite of her image, is not righteous
I’m not particularly fond of her, but Christopher Hitchens is a terrible source for basically anything. r/badhistory has a great post full of helpful sources pointing to everything he got wrong.
Thank you for providing another avenue for me to hear. I’m a member but always felt uneasy about DC 132. Of course, I was warned not to read anything “ anti-Mormon.” I’ve known wonderful members who have been emotionally supportive, and fun to be around. I truly believe a lot of Mormons are willingly ignorant, because they believe it’s more dangerous to be secularly informed, rather than “spiritually” informed. My only hope is that they change the doctrine and/ or denounce it. But I don’t see that happening either. As long as you guys keep doing the work you are, I feel hope. I have a place to turn when I genuinely feel consciously unsafe. This is the point. If it’s unsafe to question, something is off. I thought I’d be repulsed but I’m truly relieved as at peace. Thank you. This has been been bothering me for years ❤
If the church denounces it they will, in many ways, denounce Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other church leaders that practiced it. And, they would also be denouncing the new and everlasting covenant…D&C 132. I don’t see them ever denouncing it because it’s so intrinsically tied to Joseph Smith and the early church.
Great intro. I’m glad this topic is going to get 5 separate episodes.
I joined late, so I'm only just catching up with the stream. Re: the subject of polygamy and Native American women - I learned recently that in the 1800s, many indigenous families were losing land ownership rights and the right to inherit land. One workaround for it was for Native American women to marry white men. So there was an incentive there for women to accept the situation of being some man's concubine - to keep their tribal lands.
Love your LDS discussions videos! Keep them up! Im excited every time I see a new episode drop
Mike, thank you so much for all your hard work. I’ve learned so much from every episode. I appreciate John comments as well. More power to all of you.❤
Just joining now. I appreciate this initial discussion. Well done and respect for acknowledging the Priesthood in Alma 13 and owning up to correction. That shows you aren't just trying to attack the church and intentionally misrepresent things, but are trying to be fair and transparent. In my own research, I realise there are some things I am learning and have gotten wrong due to being unaware of deeper research. We all come to our own conclusions and interpretations. But I 100% agree there should be awareness and transparency. There's no question the church taught a whitewashed version which caused me to lose my faith at age 22. I am now a nuanced believer. I agree you should look at both sides- critics and apologists. I am still learning from both sides and both perspectives should be considered as we navigate our way through. Open dialogue, transparency, humility is what is needed and understanding between both sides and less divisiveness, like we saw in the Mason interview. Ultimately we can't agree and we must decide our own conclusion and interpretation, but we can learn from each other. As I'm researching and navigating my way through things on my channel tackling the truth claims and history, the voice and perspective of John and Mike is an important one, which must be taken into consideration. Thanks for all you do! p.s I've done my own series on polygamy so I'm interested in these episodes!
I think your quote about history in your opening of this set should also be put at the very beginning of this lds discussion series just a thought I loved it
Mike thank you for all you bring to us, your knowledge, hard work we appreciate. Thank you both I wish I knew all of this many years ago, makes me sick and mad for all the lies and hidden truths .
And like many others, you may regret all the time, money, and emotion you invested in the denomination through the years, right? And then they wonder why "people leave the Church, but they can't leave the Church alone."
One of the fascinating things I'm realizing is how fantastic the church was and is at setting themselves above others, only to find out they're no different or better then the rest.
my husbands dad started a polygamist group in manti in the 90s. Joseph Smiths polygamist practices are still converting new people in modern times!
Was his name Harmston?
Haha yeah, I know about this group
@@Mikha335 it was pre Harmston. Harmston was just a scouts leader that would attend the meetings. It started as a BOM study group. Its a crazy story 😅
Astounding, but then again no. There is no shortage of naive, gullible, and delusional people in the world.
@@merivalefreya7064
I can only imagine. In 1992 Harmston told me personally he had no intention of starting a group. Within a year or so he did that very thing and seemed to gain all the power. And now you tell me someone else actually spearheaded the whole thing?
Hi
Sorry to intrude
Love the show
Thanks so much
You’ve helped me more than I can thank you for
I think maybe I can help with the “polyandry” and “endogamy” thing, so here I am
“Gamete” is a specialized cell that unites with another gamete from a second organism within a species, including sperm and egg
“Gamy” signifies a relationship of sufficient intimacy to imply the potential exchange of gametes. It helps to think of the number referring to the bond rather than the person, because otherwise it’s weird that there are 3 people in bigamy.
Monogamy = single bond: one partner per partner, pair bonded. Does not differentiate homo from hetero
Bigamy = double bond: one of one kind paired with two of the other kind
Polygamy = plural bonds
Poly-gyny = a variant of polygamy featuring one male and plural females
Poly-andry = a variant of polygamy featuring one female and plural males
Poly-amory, for semantic context, seeks by replacing the lexical root for a reproductive mating bond with the root for interpersonal affinity, commonly called love, to nullify the element of mandatory commitment and emphasize in its place continually refreshed consent rather than duty to bondage as the perpetuating force.
Endo-gamy = cultural practice to marry inside a group.
Exo-gamy = cultural practice to seek mates from outside the group
Hope this helps
Love what you do! Thanks!
If God delayed the revelation because "the world wasn't ready for it," then why couldn't Joseph get a likewise revelation about the abolition of slavery or the admission of black men to the priesthood? Polygamy was probably the most shocking thing in the minds of 19th century people, you'd think the abolition of slavery and black men in the priesthood would be far more palatable! Yet nothing... this seems bizarre to me.
Important context also that wasn't touched upon - we have an idea today that people were getting married really young. That's untrue. The average age for brides in the late 1700s and well into the 1800s was 24 years old, and grooms would be about 27. SA of the servant class, whether that was paid domestic labor or enslaved domestic labor, was really common and at the same time, something people spoke about openly. There is no good explanation for an older married man having relations with an underage woman who is part of his household staff EXCEPT THAT IT IS AN AB*SE OF POWER - religious authority, holding economic wellbeing over her head etc. It could not have been an 'affair' it's ab*se.
💯. Very well said
💚 Just the fact that future prophets can/have disavowed the words of God from past prophets screams fraud.
1831 is an interesting year in context of Mary Rollins Lightner. She reports that Joseph Smith told her God wanted him to take her as his first plural wife when she was 12 years old, which could have been April of 1830 to 1831. But the balance of that probably goes to 1830, and she was 12, and he said that God had given her to him.
I find her story especially relevant because her testimony of polygamy in a BYU address is one of the most often cited sources about how women were defending it.
Ope---Nevermind! You cover that!
How do I find her story? Where is it published?
Hearing everything repeated three times helps when we are gearing up for the final test at the end of the podcast.
The reason they were discussing marrying Indian women was because they were kicked out of the Indian Territory bordering Missouri. The federal agents in charge threatened them with physical harm if they came back. They could enter if they were delivering goods or had family there, but that was it. As missionaries, they didn’t have goods to sell, but they could always marry someone, as described by Ezra Booth. Martin Harris was apparently told he should marry one even though he was still legally married, but he didn’t do it.
@@randyjordan5521 Hmm, I have never heard this story before. Do you have any sources I could look up to learn more about that?
@@randyjordan5521 Awesome, thanks! That's some fascinating information. I'll be sure to get that book too, "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri" by Stephen C LeSueur.
@@yorgasor wow, so many interesting stories just "popping up" that I've never heard before! Lol, and of course they must all be true, because no one would ever publish false information.
Definitely prefer the conversation with the two of you. Always appreciate John’s comments with his background in psychology. And props to Mike for all his thorough research.
You are right John . Jesus does not need priesthood.
Growing up in different religion. We were taught everything from the Bible some of the scriptures I found read in Book of Mormon is very familiar to the Bible
I think that when Emma caught Joseph the first time, and he went to Michigan and wrote the passage that polygamy was wrong was because Emma gave him an ultimatum, get polygamy out of the church or else.
All though he was able to make a big enough statement to get back in her graces, it didn’t last.
I think JS knew exactly what he was doing when he had Jacob include the exception about raising up seed. 2 Nephi likely came later chronically. He had plans, and found a way to allow it.
This thanksgiving remember to give thanks for the members of late 19th century US congress for putting a stop to this!
Wow wasnt expecting to hear my Webb family being quoted in this episode - thanks!
You say in this episode that episodes build on each other; how do I find episodes 1 - 23? Is it episodes 1649-1673? Are all episodes in this series about polygamy? How do I identify the episodes that came before this one? Is there a playlist? I didn't see one that seemed to be just about polygamy; if there is one, what is the name of it? Is it the shorts?
czcams.com/play/PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced.html
I've commented before about being a Presbyterian preacher's kid. My dad was a sociopathic charmer who was violently abusive at home. He was also a womanizer or perhaps a sex addict, who had affairs with sex workers, women in the congregation, and random women he met in the community. My mom didn't know (or was in denial) until the time he chose a congregant as crazy as himself who exposed him, and he lost everything.
This episode is painful to listen to; why are churches so often safe harbors for predators of this type?
1:37:00 This doctrine is something I wonder how many active members genuinely believe (or know about). Are most women, who are aware of the doctrine, hoping that it won't bother them to have to share a husband? I know a lot who are in denial or rely on that "it will all be worked out in the end" and their new eternal perspective that no longer sees through a glass darkly will help them accept it.
I use to think that my hubs would have to have my permission after we die to have a plural wife. And..... no would be my answer!
@@boysrus61 then you also learned that your husband ultimately doesn't need your permission to have more wives "given" to him in the next life. Haha, was it Joseph Fielding Smith that taught there's no genitalia in heaven? I know a lot of members who believe that, but it kind of goes against the heterosexual structure this doctrine is all based upon.
1:32:05 is the one minute version that sums things up nicely
More and more evidence is pointing to Mother Teresa not being a good person, so it might be worth looking into that before mentioning her in future videos. Love the stream otherwise, thank you for all the work you put into bringing us such vast quantities of information in one place.
Excellent, as always. Thanks for all of your work. 🙏
The discussion was potentially great - but the young man doesn't stop for breath! He is articulate on the content but I felt I was on a train speeding between stations,
He gets better. Lol he's a good guy.
I’m a descendant of polygamous Mormons but not Mormon myself. I am interested less in how Joseph Smith dressed up his extramarital affairs (I was convinced of that long ago) and more interested in how rank-and-file members were affected by trying to practice a sincerely held faith. I’m sure there were many early LDS members (my LDS ancestors came to Utah from the usual European countries in handcart companies) who fully believed they were doing God’s will in participating in polygamy.
My understanding of polygamy comes not so much from a study of LDS Church history or a deep dive into the doctrine but rather from the family history either recounted in journals, personal writings, and in the case of knowing the last LDS generation that was born into Polygamy, my two Grandfathers. I will state that I am not a member of the LDS Church. It is well-known and somewhat celebrated in the Ezekiel and Julia Hills Johnson family that Joseph Smith took one of their daughters as a plural wife; he asked for another daughter but turned him down as she was in love with another Man. Benjamin F. Johnson, recalls that when Joseph talked to his mother Julia Hills Johnson, about the revelation on plural marriage, he told her that the first thought was to come and ask her some of her daughters Benjamin wrote that "I can now understand that the period alluded was at Kirtland.
The other point I was always taught was that Joseph Smith and the early prophets practiced polygamy, and it always surprises me when people/members say they did not know. It has always been part of my heritage, as a matter of fact. I never was told to be ashamed of this heritage; my Grandfather was proud to be from a polygamous family and would talk lovely of the "first wife" as a second mother. To me, his half brothers and sisters were just called Aunt and Uncle. I will add that he would condemn those who practiced polygamy, like the Allred and LeBarron families, because they did not practice plural marriage as ordained by God.
Here is a quote from my 3rd Great Grandmother, Susan Ellen Johnson Martineau: "It was in Ramus that Joseph taught my father and grandmother, Julia Hills Johnson, the principal of plural marriage, both of whom accepted it.
To my certain knowledge, the Prophet married my Aunt Almera Johnson as a plural wife with my father's consent, living as such until his martyrdom. She died a few years ago in Parowan, Iron County, Utah, and was proud of her union with him.
Joseph desired my uncle to explain the law to another aunt of mine and have her consent to be sealed to him, but she refused, preferring to marry the young man and then paying her attention. She did marry the young man and, according to her conversation with me, regretted it all her life.
When I was but a child, I had a positive testimony that Joseph was a Prophet of God, and as I looked at him, he seemed to me like a heavenly being. And at the age of eighteen, I had a positive testimony that the principle of plural marriage, as revealed through Joseph, was a pure and holy one."
In conclusion, I declare myself a living witness to the fact that Joseph Smith, the Prophet, not only taught but also practiced plural marriage, anyone to the contrary notwithstanding."
Polygamy has never been a faith crisis for me; it is like the word of wisdom and the countless revelations that are found in the Doctrine and Covenants; you either believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet or he was not. From my Family History, I see the good, bad and ugly. I will say that, for the most part, my grandfathers did their best to love each wife equally and to be loving fathers. Yet I also can see where some wanted a young wife and how this changed their relationship with their wives. I also see the strength of my Grandmothers by either divorcing or demanding respect; some just left and went to live with their own children. Yet others have shown love for all the children born into their plural marriage and show charity towards the other wife. Having been raised by those from Mormon Colonies in Mexico, I see they were all trying to live the "Restored Gospel" and follow Jesus Christ as well as they could. They were honest men and women who had pure hearts.
Saying that each successive church president is a prophet who receives revelation / inspiration from deity could EASILY be interpreted as complete blasphemy, indicating that deity is very wishy-washy, indecisive, compulsive, capricious, and even flaky. Look at the history of not only polygamy, but also nature/makeup of the godhead, name of the church, race and related curses, Adam-God doctrine, blood atonement, ordinances for offspring of "gay" parents, etc., etc.
Next Thursday is too far away...!
Thanks for sharing God bless!
Constant contradiction can have the effect of increasing the propaganda value of any organization that depends on getting people's attention and THEN indoctrinating them and turning them into its slaves. Because when people get confused by contradiction they will probably go to the organization to have it explained. When that happens, indoctrination continues in response to this additional contact with the person to be turned into a slave.
So I've heard the situation with Fanny described as either a dirty "affair" and a dirty "scrape". Not sure which one is true
@@randyjordan5521 yup. Either way Joe is a creep. But I'm curious as to which one it was.
At about 100:40 in or just before. Comparing women to cattle. Johnny Lingo anybody?
Mike you are a gentleman and a scholar, and damn good at both!
Thanks!
My friends and family would say that Joseph being able to riff off a 3200 word revelation is the evidence that it came from god not that he had a gift and skills. Or they would say yea he was gifted… with the power of god.
I don’t know how to respond to that. How would you respond to that?
Have them read or watch this:
mormonstories.org/podcast/visions-in-a-seer-stone-joseph-smith-and-the-making-of-the-book-of-mormon-william-l-davis/
@@randyjordan5521 it’s definitely bogus
@@randyjordan5521 i guess your not familiar with the book of Daniel in the bible. Daniel and his fellow jewish brothers were trying to keep the law of worshipping their God, when conspiring men in the kings court made prayer illegal unless it was to worship the designated idol. They broke the law and hence Daniel was thrown to the lions. In Jesus day, it was against Jewish law to do anything on the sabbath, so Jesus purposely did healings (which were against the law)
Laws of God frequently are not the same as the "law of the land"
Because the government's of this world are mostly under Satans power.
Are there any children resulting from Joseph's polygamy? My TBM husband likes to Argue that these were Nonsexual arrangements. However these poor teen girls were not allowed to date after being locked down.
I think that you raise a very important point about the lives of the girls/women who were married to Joseph Smith, which often gets lost in discussions of polygamy. While there is evidence from some of the girls'/womens' journals that the marriages were indeed consummated, EVEN IF apologists want to argue that the marriages were not sexual, they still have to be willing to endorse the idea that Joseph Smith was entitled to STEAL THE FUTURES of these girls/women. Joseph's wives couldn't date, or marry the men they wanted (even when some had pre-existing betrothals/marriages), or have children in marriages of their choosing. If the sealings of these girls/women were TRULY NON-SEXUAL in intent, then they should NOT have been done in the form of MARRIAGES that precluded marriage/sex with ANY OTHER PARTNERS. Instead, truly non-sexual sealings could have been done in the form of an ADOPTIONS, which would have allowed the girls/women to be sealed spiritually into Joseph's family WITHOUT their having to sacrifice their future ability to marry and live normal lives.
When apologists try to sugarcoat this issue, what they are really saying is that they not only deny the evidence that Joseph's marriages were consummated, but that they are also comfortable with the idea that the girls/women may have been pressured or coerced into nun-like celibacy and the denial of their sexual and reproductive agency and self-determination. That's an odd position to take, given that LDS theology places so overwhelming an emphasis on their concept of PROCREATIVE marriage.
To be clear, I do NOT believe, based on the evidence, that all of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were unconsummated; I just think that even that possibility does not solve the moral problem of Joseph's plural marriages for apologists, particularly when there is ample evidence of the coercive and spiritually abusive tactics that were used on many girls/women to force them into marriage with Joseph.
That's what I find really perplexing. I don't think they have found any children from other wives which makes no sense if the purpose was to bring spirits to earth. Given the lack of birth control at that time you would think he would have at least had one accidental pregnancy with one of them if he was having sexual relationships with them.
@@jenfoster128 another point I'd like to make is Brigham had tons of wives and they have that on full display at the Beehive House in SLC.
I don't think anyone will ever know for certain. A faithful Mormon-owned, BYU-connected "Molecular Genealogy Foundation" conducted some "DNA studies" (based on Y chromosome analysis) of just a few 19th century Mormons who were rumored to have been children of Joseph Smith and concluded that they were not. I have serious doubts about how reliable their findings were, or the provenance of the samples they used (and I don't think they were actually digging up the bodies of the actual rumored offspring, but rather were getting samples from living descendants a few generations removed). There seem to be many limitations that they glossed over when they announced their conclusions. Furthermore, I doubt that there is a Joseph Smith, Jr. marker that would simultaneously be sufficiently distinct from, for example, a Hyrum Smith or Joseph Smith, Sr. marker and also be inevitably and unmistakably present in any descendant of Prophet Joe to make it possible to conclusively rule out the possibility of a person being a descendant of Joseph Smith through a woman other than Emma.
The "non-sexual arrangement" thing literally makes no sense. First of all, what would be the purpose of entering into a non-sexual marriage arrangement with Joseph Smith? The Book of Mormon itself clearly states that the only exception to the monogamy requirement is to "raise up seed" (which inevitably would require a sexual arrangement). The "dynastic purpose" argument put forward unofficially by apologists makes no sense. If the idea is to seal families together for eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom, there is no logical reason why it would have to be done by way of Joe marrying a young daughter of that family. It could be done by way of an adoption sealing (adopted son, or adopted brother, etc.) or any other type of family relationship sealing. No need to mess up the life of a young woman by claiming her as an eternal bride (meaning that no other man could marry her for both time AND eternity). Furthermore, all of the subsequent polygamist prophets obviously had carnal relations with their plural wives. Why do so many Mormons think that was okay and based on a "revelation" that Joseph Smith delivered, while simultaneously thinking that Joseph Smith was somehow too pure to practice what he preached?
The Book of Mormon verses in Jacob sure seem to indicate that Joseph had polygamy on the brain from the start, to some degree. My theory is that he was wrestling with a desire for multiple women that he thought was unclean and initially tried to push it aside. But over time as he gained more and more followers and power, he found ways to justify giving in the urge. And eventually, he drank his own kook-aid and convinced himself that if the desire lingered it must be from God.
What is so crazy is the Bible says that God doesn't change, so he's not going to constantly be changing his guidelines to fit the law of the land, having prophets contradict instructions from previous prophets, like regarding the color of skin, of instructions on marriage from one man & one women to one man and multiple wives or one women and multiple men(polygamy, polyandry).
He's not going to create another text that contradicts the Bible he already (Numbers 23:19, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17), Jesus/Yeshua doesn't change: (Heb. 13:8, John 1:1-4). God clearly says not to add to or take away from scripture. (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Rev. 22:18-19). So JS already violated scripture. That must be why JS had to say all texts were corrupt so he could include new doctrines that suited him.
Then according to scripture, JS doesn't fit the requirements of a prophet because he made all kinds of proclamations that never happened. Scripture says if a prophet prophesies something and says it was of God and it doesn't come to pass, than, it's not of God.
Deut. 18:20-22 Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Really appreciate your content.
Jesus said, "You're neither married nor given in marriage. That settles it for me.
Stop hate. Just in every day word.
Please stop the lipstick on a pig reference. John you are using it every episode lately. The irony that this is an insult frequently used toward women who are not the standard of thin and beautiful on an episode about women's relations with the church seems to be lost. This episode really needs a woman's perspective.
Plurality of wives is a great crime 😱
Well if this is the past and its not practiced any more then they have corrected a wrong. Is that right or not. Joseph smith did wrong , Brigham Young done wrong they are answering to GOD for their Sins . We just have go make sure we do not continue this behavior going forward.
I do not believe in polygamy or polyandrous i believe we are to be married 1 man and 1 woman forever and do not cheat on each other and all that poly stuff is wrong and NOT what God teaches or taught. That is mans desires and its wrong.
In heaven.
Thanks Mike n John. Question Could the human practice of sex during pregnancy be the unconscious fetal memory fueling polygamy? All other mammals are programmed not to have sex after conception as an example to the free will wielding humans. The Original sin allegory brought the death sentence but no real explanation as to what this sin was. Delicious to the taste and very desirable sounds like something sexy to me. Our first impressions of the sexual energy inutero is fueling the resistance to two is company, three is a crowd that engaging in polygamy etc brings to the surface through the naval. Please. Dig deeper. Like Mike, I am a nonbeliever member and like John, milt generational mormon
What does "still a member but not a believer" mean? A non Mormon, curious.
It is a long drawn out paper process to be removed from church roles. In other words they make sure it is as miserable as possible. Most people just quit going to this satanic cult
So all the early saints were swingers.
Polygamy, polyandry and polygyny from the Greek words for many ( πολύς/polus) + marriage (γάμος/gamos) or man (ἀνήρ/aner [ᾰ̓νδρός/andros in genitive form]) or woman (γυνή/gyne [as in gynecologist])
Is there a way I can experience Mormon polygamy without actually becoming a Mormon? Just asking.
Your channel popped up on my feed. I thought at last SOMEONE besides Dr. Bryan Ardis would tell the truth about the Mormon cult. But NO! You are even still studying the phony doctrines and covenants and quoting them as fact. I am going to unsubscribe from your channel.
Fanny was true victimized by Joseph?
Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.
Sure didn't he was good at doing it. How about Fanny in the barn? Arrest records still available on line. Enjoy your satanic cult
“Melanin or melatonin or whatever” 😮😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😮😮😮😮😮😂😂😂😂😂😂 wowza
Joseph Smith the most righteous person besides Jesus😳🤔🤨
Hilarious 😂
Did I just like and subscribe to Polygamy? Are my plural wives arriving by Amazon or Wish?
😂
132 was not written by Joseph but manipulated by Brigham Young!!
How the Nauvoo Expositor places D&C 132 in Joseph's lifetime: czcams.com/video/6sQD17b991o/video.html
If Joseph was having all this sex with all of his plural wives, then where are the offspring? We know he wasn't sterile (Emma was seemingly always pregnant). My understanding is there has been DNA testing & research done too try and identify any potential offspring from him. My understanding is that the results of these DNA tests have all come back negative. Mabey the RLDS church's position should be taken more seriously.
The RLDS church has reversed their position based on the evidence.
What is the RLDS' position?
Good opening video! I think you've covered it well, Fanny Alger can be interpreted as a plural marriage or adultery depends on what you make of the documents, but either way is a troubling the way Joseph did it without Emma's knowing. Interesting theory that possibly Joseph married other men's wives incase children popped up, although that's speculation you could argue that it is a speculative theory that he did it to appease the angel and not break Emma's heart. I don't think there's any unambiguous evidence when it comes to polyandry. Probably the best evidence was Josephine Lyon being Joseph's daughter but DNA shows she's not. You could interpret it two ways that Sylvia had sex with both Joseph and Windsor and didn't know who the Father was or she's Joseph's daughter in a adopted spiritual sense and their marriage was just a sealing 'non sexual'.
I do disagree on the church teaching polygamy is required for exaltation. I've done some research on that one www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation
This site on fair shows early church leaders not teaching plural marriage will be required for exaltation but celestial marriage and the verses in D&C 132 talking about celestial marriage for exaltation does not mean plural marriage 'The revelation further explains how a husband and “a wife” will be exalted if they are sealed by proper authority and they live worthily: “Verily I say unto you, if a man marry A WIFE by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, . . . [it] shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things” (D&C 132:19). Modern polygamists are all condemned because their marriages are not authorized. See D&C 132:18, 38'
I interpret that you can be exalted without being married to multiple wives and we won't all be forced to be polygamists.
Very interesting point about Joseph dictating 3200 words without using the seer stone/urim and thummim and Joseph having this ability to memorise and dictate long scriptural text. I suppose an apologist could argue the Holy Ghost can bring all things to your remembrance, but it was a good observation nevertheless. I look forward to part 2