The Problem with Spider Gwen
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
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Here's Her Story czcams.com/video/nRYmw9fYu2M/video.html and these are those Agent Venom thoughts I mentioned czcams.com/video/5qnTJf9EWxc/video.html
Hailee Steindeld.
Thanks Benny I'll take a look at it.
I actually kind of liked how Spider-Gwen was done in the Ultimate Spider-man show. She's in the same universe as Miles Morales, and after Miles disappears she takes it upon herself to become the next spider themed hero. She built technology to simulate spider powers such a digital Spider sense. It's essentially an extension of when Peter built his own Webshooters. Much more interesting and different than just being bitten by the same spider.
i hate his name is spin lol
The thing I said about Trans Gwen I still stand by. SpiderGwen is already like the fourth variant of main Gwen Stacy to exist. She is already a spin-off, of a spin-off. If they wanted to make a Trans Gwen and worked it, and made it a unique variant like they did with Ghost Spider, people would watch it. I don't think most actual fans of comics would complain but the studio would have to be willing to commit to that.
She's popular because she has honestly, one of the best looking Hero costumes i've seen, and her regular Gwen look is fire as well.
Also Gwen stacy is worth it
Then marvel not try Just bring original gwen from main universe back to alive permanently
PROBLEM SOLVED
@@yaqinmalul6467 Because the only people who even cared about gwen stacey were sad middle aged men who...welll..are the reason that marvel is basically unreadable now.
also gwen pool! i really think gwen pool is very underutilized...
@@incognit01233 Nobody, least of all us sad middle aged men who still buy comic floppies, cared about resurrecting Gwen Stacy because Peter and MJ were happily married and that was supposed to be the status quo *FOREVER.* But now that the company is staffed with obnoxious millennial wokescolds, the writers and editors spend their days thinking of new, creative, and ever-more-vicious ways to turn Spider-man into the universe's biggest cuckold. So why not? Go ahead and bring back Gwen. They can just have her bang Norman. _Again._
The problem with her is just that Marvel wants her to cross over with their 616 comics rather than just creating comics focused on her universe. It annoys me so much that they feel the need to merge everything into 616. Maybe they should pick a new mainline universe and start over from scratch. Do an Ultimate Universe again, but make it actually good. Then they could just bring in all the characters they want without the consequences.
Ultimate Marvel, MC2 (which was better imo)…
@@Jscallen13 MC2 was definitely better. Although I do wish they allowed main Avengers to have children of their own instead of being killed off. Would've been fun to see Captain America as a dad, and his kid interacting with Spidergirl.
And they don't even do anything interesting with Gwen being in the 616 earth. Like meeting Daredevil and comparing him to the Matt Murdock of her earth, who is a villain.
Funny you mention the ultimate universe cause that's coming back
Well, they ARE bringing back the ultimate universe. 👀👀👍🏼👍🏼
I’m 100% with you on the point of “if you don’t want a character called by a certain name, then don’t start off by calling them by that name in the first place”. Keep preaching the gospel of sanity.
I disagree because Luke cage won the title of Powerman in a street fight..... It can be done and it just has to be cool
That’s because Luke cage is his own character spider Gwen is one of many derivative characters of Peter Parker/ Spider-Man. She has nothing to go
For her.
it doesn’t help that they’re somehow making her trans for what reason? Marketing, representation, it’s not mentioned in the comics, or in other material. Why is she supposed to be explain this to me
@@nebriancoleman4704 That’s because Luke cage is his own character spider Gwen is one of many derivative characters of Peter Parker/ Spider-Man. She has nothing to go
For her. it doesn’t help that they’re somehow making her trans for what reason? Marketing, representation, it’s not mentioned in the comics, or in other material. Why is she supposed to be explain this to me. At least make it consistent
@@darkman452nobody made Gwen trans except Twitter don’t spread misinformation
@@darkman452 They're not making her trans its just single celled Twitter users screaming for more representation in across the spider verse
Firstly, she should be called spin because she wears ballet flats and dances, and miles should be called ghost-spider because he can turn invisible.
Nah nah nah. She is the only spider-based hero in her universe so she is simply The Spider. Miles is the last remnant from the ultimate universe so he retains the Ultimate Spider-Man tagline where peter keeps Spectacular/Amazing Spider-Man taglines.
@@Hadeks_Marow I'd agree with that, but in the show where they gave them those nicknames, they should have flipped them.
I've been having this conversation since my kids and their cousins started watching the show lol
@@slevemcdichael101 ok, fine, for a kid show made for preschoolers, I concede. xD
Miles can also be called The Phantom Spider
@@Arvyn992 Miles can also change his hero name into being Shadow-Spider or Crawler (Prowler + crawl like spiders do) when he's older.
I actually kind of liked how Spider-Gwen was done in the Ultimate Spider-man show. She's in the same universe as Miles Morales, and after Miles disappears she takes it upon herself to become the next spider themed hero. She built technology to simulate spider powers such a digital Spider sense. It's essentially an extension of when Peter built his own Webshooters. Much more interesting and different than just being bitten by the same spider.
Yeah she was pretty cool there
Also, her dad knowing that Gwen is Spider-Woman and is proud of her.
Also, her being voiced by Dove Cameron.
@@joshuaingobo1559 yeah, I liked that aspect as well. Also, I thought she was voiced by Olivia Holt?
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Spider-Gwen from the Ultimate Spider-Man TV series was voiced by Dove Cameron, while Olivia Holt voiced Petra Parker (a gender-swapped Earth-12041 Peter Parker) Spider-Girl.
@@joshuaingobo1559 oh, that's right. Totally flip flopped on that. Good casting on both.
Tbh, I can believe them trying to change her hero name in the comics. After all, what’s the point of a secret identity if *you put your actual name in your hero name?* Spider Gwen only works as a name for us because we know that she’s a spider man that is Gwen.
She doesn't have a secret identity in her universe so she could actual use spider-gwen there
I do think Ghost Spider is the best name for her, it differs her from all the other "spider-women" out there. And adds a bit more of an allure for the reader, similarly to that of Silk.
Yeah Ghost Spider is my favorite name for her.
The Latour run ends with her being publicly known, which does result in some people going from calling her Spider-Woman to Spider-Gwen. The Ghost-Spider name was only really a thing because Marvel wanted her on Earth-616 more often.
Except her name in the comics was Spider-Woman. Spider-Gwen was just used as a marketing tool so people knew which Spider-Woman
Wouldn't it have more sense if Miles was Ghost Spider because he can turn invisible?
Stop u making too much sense
@@MaxIronsThird the costume or him cause I guess there is a racial component there but that slur is deep cut stuff. Besides that, other than suit color nothing makes you think of a ghost with Gwen.
@@MaxIronsThird and?
@@BishopTDE I'm joking, but the Spider Ghost name was given to Gwen definitely bc of her predominantly white costume and the hood.
@@MaxIronsThirdlol no shit. Actually "fun" fact the slur I was referring to is "Spook". A lesser known one. Hence why I said deep cut referring to it being on a lesser known basis.
I guess the naming problem is that Marvel thinks people are stupid. Both Peter and Miles can be called Spider-Man. That’s fine. With Spider-Gwen, it makes sense to rename her because it wouldn’t make sense for her to go around her universe and calling herself Spider-Gwen, unless they do something like the Marvel’s Spider-Man (2017) show. Calling her Spider-Woman in her universe makes sense because there aren’t other Spider-People in her universe.
In universe jessica has a problem with people taking her identity so she actively takes out anything and anyone impersonating her she straight up kills skrulls on sight because of her secret wars experience
And gwen knows this and other characters who went by spiderwoman also know this thats why there names changed
Also in gwens universe she doesn't have a secret identity
So there she's can be called spider-gwen
Calling Miles Spider-man only really works when there is only 1 Spider-man around tho, when Peter is around too it just gets dumb...
@@V-Jes Like only having one Flash in DC---oh wait. It's fine to have multiple sharing the name, so long as it's written well. They are two distinctly different personalities, but share the same core value of helping because being good is good.
@@Bananahammock681 It's dumb with Flash too, as calling 2 super heroes the same name IS just dumb when there's nothing stopping them from just naming 1 of them different so you can tell them apart...
@@V-Jes completely agree. Just give then their own names.
I think Ghost Spider is a great name for Spider Gwen, especially with her standard costume.
Something I've noticed is that marvel really struggles with legacy type heroes while DC is like yea this is the 5th Robin or the 20th Green lantern and keeps it moving
DC's struggle with legacy characters is letting them grow and trying to remember how many family members there are. Marvels struggle is letting them be unique
@@HELLO_KORO character growth is a struggle for all comic characters tbh eventually they all revert
@@HELLO_KORO I don’t know. DC comics have not been perfect on legacy characters but they are leagues better than Marvel. It seems Captain Marvel and Wolverine are Marvel’s only truly successful legacy characters. Miles is not really legacy since Peter is very much around still. They did Kamala Khan dirty unfortunately.
@@majorlazor5058 Miles Legacy worked best when Peters outta comission either as a dad or dead
@@dragonwings123456789and then Tim Drake gets sideline for a decade, along with Bart and Kon, yeah great
Here's my hot take on Miles Morales "spider-man". I think Peter Parker should ALWAYS retain the "Amazing Spider-Man" and "Spectacular Spider-Man" taglines. HOWEVER, I think moving forward, Miles should be the ONLY spider who gets the "ULTIMATE Spider-Man" tagline since he is the last remnant from the ultimate universe. So whenever you hear "amazing" or "spectacular" it should refer to peter, but when you hear "ultimate" it should no longer ever refer to peter anymore and ONLY to miles.
Thoughts? Keep in mind, this is just for tagline branding, aka just brand association for the reader. It is not for naming purposes; would not be the in-universe name for the character (similar to how spider-gwen is a tagline and not the actual name, however, I would have named her "The Spider" since she is the only spider in her universe. Adding "girl" or "woman" is always derivative and dismissing in naming schemes, exception being invisible woman).
I'd like to see him develop his own identity or take up the Prowler mantle personally.
i do like miles as the ultimate spider-man
This is how I understood it. I thought miles was the new Ultimate I never gave it a second thought.
I do think within universe having two Spiderman isn't really a problem. I mean dc has two flashes with the exact same powers and suits and nobody seems to complain. But I do like the branding idea. Plus they're suits really highlight that their both different
@@MarxIsDeadAndRotting why not just call him the crawler instead? you know, the prowler + crawling which is what spiders do? or just pick a name based on existing spider names. isnt there a tarantula a character in the comics? why not have him take that mantle instead? or something weaver.
i also think he could make use of the prowler name. maybe nerf him a bit, and have him depend on tech to do his super heroics.
you could even do a in universe rebrand, have him talk with peter to come up with a new name for him, as people keep confusing them. maybe had a few arcs with lots of heroes going after him and finding peter, or wanting to talk with peter and instead meeting him. so he gets fed up with them always confusing them.
and since miles was the second spiderman in his universe and the 616, have him come to therms that he needs to change.
either that or throw him in a universe that doesnt has a spiderMAN. something like gwen's. and have him keep the mantle of spiderman there.
The problem is not the re-using of names - it’s that characters won’t stay dead. Wolverine, Robin, etc. Theses replacements were *supposed* to be replacing dead/retired characters.
loved the video, one thing i wanna mention is in the "Ghost Spider" series where she went to 616 for college, she still LIVED in 65. she went home via a dimensional-traveling watch. she just didnt wanna go to school there cuz her identity was outed and wanted a "normal" college experience, so she straightup commuted to 616.
the hilarious part is, SHE WAS OPEN ABOUT THAT WHEN SHE ENROLLED. Her being a trans-dimensional transfer student boiled down to having a member of faculty vouch for her (Peter) and filling out a FORM.
and this is stupid, but then i thought about all the crazy shit that happens in 616, and. yeah. why not have a form for "commutes from another dimension to go to school"???
it is what I call "Comic Book Dumb", and i personally love it but i fully understand how some may think it's TOO much stupid.
I'm just thinking about the management here. Now she has to get a PO box so the school can forward her mail somewhere, and maybe needs to get a new ID in the other dimension? Plus there's parent/guardian stuff that needs to be managed, and honestly it's funny to think about.
They should keep her in her universe, the best aspect of her first run is her relation with her supporting character like her father, Mary jane, Harry. They could try to expand her universe instead of putting her in 616
Yeah
I'd love to have her return to her universe but they'd have to finish the story arc that had her go to 616 which had her forced out by the Sue and Johnny Storm of her universe
Yeah, I don’t really get why they feel the need to bring characters into the 616 universe. Same goes for Miles, the coolest thing about being from a different universe is you’re not held back by the main continuity.
@@Wiki1184 okay good to know
@@joshuahackshaw7703
Good to know what?
Im a preschool teacher, and I was super confused when my students would talk about Spiderman and say their favorite character was spin. Like “who the hell is Spin” 😂
It's funny that you mention Gwen, but Silk has the exact same problem, and she's IN the 616 universe! Constant mini-series reboots for Cindy Moon, and almost no advertisement for her. She could've been Peter's substitute in the MCU during the 5 year blip, but Marvel never considers it
The poor gwens... They never know what to do with them. Spider Gwen Gwenpool both good character ideas. The biggest issue I see with having a family of heroes like this is you get the outcasts.
Even you don't know, it's Gwen Poole
@@MaxIronsThird Frankly I'm not one to care. I mispell things all the damn time. If you wanna be such ass about it. Find someone who still gives a shit.
@@MaxIronsThird
You ever seen her Titled Covers? Because you come off like you've never seen Gwenpool's Promotional/Editorial Name is.
@@baligong3592 Gwenpool is the name of the comic, not the character's name, just like Spider-Gwen, she's called Spider-Woman/Ghost Spider.
@@MaxIronsThirdlmao bro must think Gwen Poole is either a Gwen Stacy variant or a Deadpool variant. In reality it’s just a girl from our dimension named Gwen Poole
I’m mostly upset that Spider-Gwen is getting the most attention compared to other spider women, especially Spider-Girl (Mayday Parker)
I don't want them to touch Mayday Parker. I'm afraid how they'll ruin that character.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp She's already ruined sadly. You can thank Dan Slott for that.
@@rhadamanthys649 What did he do to her?
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Murdered her parents and turned her into an edgelord.
@@rhadamanthys649WHAT?! The bastard!
I like Spider-Gwen a lot, but it makes me pretty sad that she's essentially taken the role of (and completely replaced) Ultimate Jessica Drew, who was probably my favorite of the reimagined characters in the Ultimate universe.
I’m loving the Problem with series, please keep them coming.
One of the best comic book movies I’ve ever experienced was watching Into the Spiderverse with my kids in the theater. The minute Gwen popped up her full costume and pulled that mask off my, at the time, 5 year old daughter’s eyes widened and face lit up. She’s been a massive Ghost Spider fan ever since. Spider-Man was my favorite comic book growing up, so getting to share that with her has been great and frustrating. Great to have a connection with my kid over a shared interest, frustrating because she is so damn under marketed. Across the Spiderverse hits and there’s no Ghost Spider/Spider Gwen/Spider Woman merch in sight. I dragged my old *** into a Hot Topic after seeing AtSV the other week looking for something, and the people working there said that they don’t get much stuff with Gwen on it and it always sells out immediately. There’s a bunch of fans, both new who love the character as her own thing and old who enjoy the inversion of the Peter/Gwen destinies, who want to see more of the character. But Marvel, Sony, and Disney don’t have any real plans for her.
The original Jason Latour run of Spider-Gwen was great and Matt Murdock of earth 65 was a great villain.
Following writers after Latour don't seem to know what to do.
Same thing that happened to Gwenpool. Only that to her it happened way faster than to Spider Gwen due to the lack of spider charisma
What you described was all the reasons that she isn’t well fleshed out. That there is a million different ways they’ve tried to flesh out her character. All of that to then say that she has been fleshed out and we know for certain she isn’t trans💀 like this is not a hot take. Queerness has been written into the subtext of media for decades which you would probably know better had you looked at literally any examples of this happening. You’re right that outright saying she was trans would’ve been a front page headline, it also would’ve distanced the huge number of fans who are not LGBT supportive… ie profit and ticket sales. I don’t feel like you have a well rounded understanding of queer representation vs diversity marketing tbh. All of that said, I do still support having your own interpretation of characters, that is what makes it art so I won’t disqualify the other things you HAVe done a good job pointing out in this. Across the spider verse is such a good film for a number of reasons, but the number one in my book, is that they have centered good representation without spoon feeding a diversity starved audience.
Love this series ❤. Keep it going. Also I just really hope they dont somehow force her into the 616 main universe because as nice as her relationship with Miles is it would be annoying to see the pattern of forcing characters into the main universe especially when its Gwen died.
I think part of the larger issue is that Marvel wants more legacy characters so that they can have the illusion of finality with characters like Captain America, Iron Man, etc. But don't have the established history of familiarity with the concept in a way that audiences understand. Because of this, naming patterns go all over the place because they try and distinguish legacy characters from the OG but dont want any confusion for licensing and production. Ironically, the best approach that can be seen is the one DC takes where legacy characters just go by their name. When fans discuss Green Lantern, Robin, Flash, Atom, Blue Beetle, or any multiverse character, all these characters have their identities as apart of their characters. (See Jon Stewart, Damian Wayne, Wally West, Ray Palmer, Ted Kord, and Thomas Wayne) Sure, some less popular characters will get traits and plot-points confused for a different version (see Hourman, Black Canary, or really anyone in JSA) but ultimately it's the best naming function to be used because at the end of the day, the character has more personality and can maintain more relevance if you just keep them associated with their original title in place of giving them some new "hero name" that will be forgotten and passed to the wayside (Sorry Tim Drake.)
hte real problem is that comics dont know how to do the whole "passing of the torch" that is needed to pull it off. even DC who has done it well in the past, was unable to fix that once they brought back barry allen as the flash, instead, they basically kicked wally to the curb.
I think the reason people aren’t talking about miles maybe being gay or any other character but are talking about Gwen being trans is because Gwen is constantly surrounded by the colors of the trans flag in her universe as well as the “protect trans kids” flag on her room and her dad having a trans flag in his uniform. The spider verse movies are more subtle than other media so it being a part of her that their making different without throwing it in your face does make sense. Also if they did mention she is trans people would say that their training lgbt and some stuff in the audience’s face
So because they use pink and blue shading she's trans? You know they didn't invent those colors right? And her dad's badge was not a trans flag it was a regular badge that looked pink and blue because of the color filters.
That and the fact that her plotline kinda resonates with many trans viewers.
That whole speech about only showing half of who you are, the fact that her plotline revolves around hiding her identity from her family for fear that her family would turn against her when she reveals the truth, the longing for a community to belong to, where they no longer need to hide, where people understand them.
You can understand how a lot of queer folks might relate to that plotline
@@hamyman35 fr
@@cartoonishidealism582but isn’t that the exact same experience of every Spider-Man/women the struggle to hide their identities to protect the ppl they love as well as themselves ?
@@AMSky-kw4nj that was a military badge, tinted to the color of the environment. You can literally see it in any other scene he is in that it's not a trans thing. THAT is a fact.
When the panels for Gwen-65 in Peter's high school / university was pulled up, I remembered those panels during the original Spider-Verse event when they comforted and/or empathised with losing their versions of each other.
I think that moment was partially why I got into her world. Watching her struggle made me think that there was a disconnect with the current versions of Gwen-65. My first impression was a more mature Gwen who was basically 616 Peter but replaced, then she became her own character in her own world, like Kamala being in New Jersey for most of her run.
Now, Gwen's just everywhere and nowhere, and the first two iterations of her, which I enjoyed, seem so far away.
Spider-Gwen is not trans
never was
never will be
I’m dreading yet excited for a long long episode of this series for Barbara Gordon. Keep up the great work
I feel like people suggesting whether or not Spider-Gwen is trans not because "people don't know who she is in the comics" and more because of the movie versions are always separate from their comic portrayals so you have more leeway because it's not the prime version of her (like how 616-Peter can be himself in the comics while 616-Peter in Spider-Verse, because yes his world is Earth-616 in the Spider-Verse films, is a man in his 40s who's life changed for the better thanks to Miles)
Similarly I feel like they shouldn't advertise if Gwen came out as trans because (and admittedly this is absolutely based on past experience with Disney doing this shit) it'd absolutely only be for the headlines and not because Lord and Miller want to go that direction with the character because more often than not it's only so companies can make money off of headlines of being "their first LGBT+ character" and it doesn't matter in the film(s) themselves
Also I feel like you shouldn't have brought it up period if only because that absolutely feels like something that the comments are gonna be focusing on and having flame wars about because you essentially opened up Pandora's Box. I personally don't see Spider-Verse Gwen as trans but I can see why others would or at least see her arc in ASTV as a trans allegory (especially with the colors used in Earth-65 and whatnot)
@@SonicXeno right because controversy equels dont talk about it right? gotta love a whole sect of the human experience is shunned cause some rightwing facists are gonna whine and complain. who cares. they say its a free country right? so just talk about what you want i personally would like it if she was I find her experience "coming out" as spider woman to her father to be incredibly relatable having been rejected by my own family. the only way you could really see this as something that negatively impacts the character is if you actually think being trans is bad. who cares about back lash from bigoted fuck heads. they can eat paint for all i care.
I've loved Spider Gwen ever since she was first introduced. Such a cool character.
I hope they never get rid of the symbiote. I think it makes her standout more from the other spider people.
Throwing Spider-Gwen through the multiverse to keep her in print and give her something to do smacks of what DC did with that storyline where Jason Todd, Donna Troy, and Kyle Rayner (three notoriously misused characters at DC) went on a big, wild adventure for no reason at all.
The naming issues that miles and gwen and other legacies have could be its own video. While i consider miles his own spider-man, the fact that the red and black costumed hero never became scarlet spider III is beyond me cause for a while ben and kaine werent up to much lmao
Very well put-together discussion and well-researched. Another Benny banger 😎👍
Gwen was already my favorite love interest so Spider Gwen is easily my favorite Spiderwoman especially because she is also a drummer
@fn_cxrsed2984 your the guy from church that leaves scripture instead of tips at Dennys I bet.
@@ScandalousStarsshut up
Understandable I like her too after watching the movie although she was pretty interesting before even though I don’t think I really paid her any mind
Honestly I never considered how mishandled Gwen is, I didn’t even know her powers at some point are symbiote based which is cool. I have a series on my channel called A Better Fit For a Better Story series inspired by you Benny! Ideally I focus on where to place these characters who I feel are mishandled and have no permanent place in there own universe to set roots and make a unique difference in there world. I’ve made videos on Dick, Tim, and Jason while working now on Miles. I feel like since Gwen doesn’t even have a place in her own universe and that marvel is show horning her into the main 616 without a plan is crazy to do. A little bit of what I think should happen to help her is to get her to live peacefully in her own world again. An idea I have would be to get the help of Spider-Man Noir to help clear her name. Something needs to happen to help clear her name, then she needs to develop her rogues gallery a bit more, expand on her personal life, something that gets her story to live and breathe without feeling like a side piece of the main 616 universe. She has nothing to do in 616 and interesting storylines I think would better shit her universe, daredevil is now Kingpin?! Punisher is a regular ol detective?! That’s fucking awesome, imagine seeing Gwen dook it out with Matt Murdock at the top of there tower in a big ol finally? It would be amazing to see the 616 punisher side of Gwen’s version of Frank castle in a storyline where he is framed for murder?! That would be sick!!
That rant felt personal....
"People don't question if Robert Pattinson Batman is secretly gay"
Oh we run in very different circles
I really like the idea that when Gwen is in 616 or in a universe where Gwen Stacy is gone, she can just call herself "Spider-Gwen".
Also, I like to give readers credit (though I have been wrong to do so in the past). I don't think it's so completely confusing to have 2 guys named Spider-Man running around in New York. I say this because, to address the Miles in the room, I think it would set a bad precedent to be like "Like, I know the black-latino kid has lived in New York his whole life and earned the name 'Spider-Man' in his universe or whatever...but I think he should be the one to change his name/move away." Leaves a bad taste in my mouth for whatever reason.
I agree Miles earned the name spider-man and deserves to be called by that name. DC currently has 2 flashes and fans distinguish them by name I can't see why they couldn't do that for Miles and Peter
the flash......meaning there can be multiple.
qlso you always when there are multiple flashed they arent all called the flash
@@shadowspider9 Robins, Green lanterns, Blue Beetles, Dr Fates there's more than enough examples of it working than not
Problem is those 2 spider men almost never interact even through they’re right by each other and use the same name
Only thing I knew about her was she was "Spider" and she was "Gwen" and she wore white
In the name of deadpool, I cared so little for gwenpool that i thought for 4 years that gwenpool was a variant of gwen stacy.
Benny breathe, cuz!!! Breathe
It's a problem that Marvel has where they (specifically the individuals who initially made these characters) make great starts to these characters, but they (mainline Marvel) dont really let them "run", which only slows the pace of what they could be doing or attention these characters could gain. Just like what happened recently with what they did to Kamala, or rather what they didn't know what to do with Kamala. Personally i do think she will pick up even more traction as time goes on, but it will take time and the movie has served as a jumping on point, she just need more of those in different mediums. Just like how even though Miles was around since 2011, people are just now no longer considering him as "a new character", he has been a bit more established in the public view.
With Miles they seem to refuse to build him his own little world, and just want to give him Peter's world/stories.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I would disagree but only half way. Miles does have his own challenges, villains, and world. But for good portions of his runs, this does happen. But in a justified way, if that makes sense? Miles is not like Gwen, gwen did her own thing since day one, because it was only her. Where as Miles' and Peter's stories are woven together, and that is how many people see it. He has the unique positions of being his own hero And also a mantle carrier.
@@darryljack6612 Except, Peter being dead is what had such a huge impact in him becoming the Ultimate Spiderman. Makes no sense that he's running around with Peter Parker who is also Spiderman, and completely alive. He shares the same superhero name. Also dated Gwen Stacy. Fights the same villains. Similar personality. They even had Miles go through his own version of the Clone saga. Aside from a few powers that are different, there's far too much that Miles shares with Peter to be considered his own character. A proper character.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I think you are looking at this the wrong way. The experiences that Miles had, arent negated by him being with a peter, nor does him trying to live up to that mantle negates his own identity as a spider-man. Miles fighting some villains that peter (and other spider people) fought doesnt negate anything, because again he not just a spider-man, but a mantle carrier. That is something that just exists in comics, and on top of that he still has his own villains. Miles experiencing an event that not just peter but other spider people go through, like clones doesnt negate his identity as his own spider-man, the reverse actually due to him handling it in his way. And most importantly him having the name Spiderman doesnt negate him being his own hero, the same way it doesnt for the other "spider- men" or for the other mantle carrying heroes like him. Peter is a character of experience and responsibility, miles is a character of divergence and choice. Rather if it's the diverging paths of his uncle and dad, the diverging paths of his generation of heroes and the ones the came prior, the diverging paths of his previous world and his current one, etc. That is what makes Miles different, the choice of the different paths already laid before him, and how he chooses to walk those paths.
@@darryljack6612 It does negate his experiences when the things he is experiencing are not actually his own. Its Peter's. It's sloppy seconds. Why shouldn't he have his own world to play in and his own stories that are unique to him within his world? It's holding him back as a character. He will constantly be in Peter's shadow because he shares too darn much with Peter. You're excusing them not trying anything new with Miles. He will stay stuck. Let him move forward. He should be like Terry Maguines from Batman Beyond. That's how you do taking up the mantle properly.
There is NOTHING wrong with Spider-Gwen.
they turned her into a transtard
gotta say, my favorite moniker for her is definitely Ghost-Spider. It makes her feel like more of her own thing imo
And her hood and her color ghosty too it's so cool
You know somethings that annoys me? The fact that there are now multiverses within multiverses makes things so much more confusing. Earth 65 has 2 different version of events. The MCU universe is both Earth 199999 and 616. The whole point is that it makes all your favorite versions of the characters possible to co-exist, but the comic and movie versions of Earth 65 literally cant co-exist.
Also, i feel like an insanely easy fix for the name issue is to do what Shattered Dimensons did:
Call 616 Peter the "Amazing Spider Man" and Miles "Ultimate Spider Man". Thats all they have to do.
DC has a thing called omniverses, it was a way to explain why there's a earth prime in live action shows and earth prime in comics. Separate multiverses that allow each adaptation to claim itself as the center of existence. I think marvels adapting this method since they've introduced like 3 Earth 616s
Spider-Gwen is by far my favourite spider person and it always depresses me how she gets shafted by marvel a lot. I like the idea of her being one of the few people to be able to travel the spiderverse but they just constantly bring in 616. Either keep her in 65 and make new stories there or send her to a wide range of different universes to give some flavour please
Yep!! All her comic stories are just crossing over. I love crossovers but I want Gwen to do her own things. I can’t wait to see the animated movie they’ll do about her.
I wish i could shaft spider gwen
Where are the amazon links? Did u mean gwen epic collection?
We just need a modern remake of Japanese Spiderman made by Toei
I work at a movie theater and we had a Spider-verse combo with little figurines of Miles, Miguel, and Gwen. I whole-heartedly believed that Gwen would have sold out before the other two but to my surprise it turned out that Gwen was the last set of figurines to sell. Prior to watching your video I had no idea that Spider-Gwen wasn't a super well-known character but I witnessed proof of that first-hand!
Spider Gwen and Miles worked best in their own independent Peterless universes. It's cool seeing Miles with Peter but that's a huge legacy to compete against.
Her problem can be summed up in ONE word..."Gwenverse". Seriously...the fact they did that AFTER Milesverse goes to show that Marvel is creatively BANKRUPT at this point
They have NO IDEA what to do with her or ANY of the Spider People.
These alternate reality characters can't really have long running events anyway since theyre based on anotuer more prominent character, so realistically they'll never get THAT much attention.
And in my personal opinion having longrunning stories that DONT end...has caused SEVERE DAMAGE to these companies. So let Gwen's have an ENDING. Hell 2099 had bit of an ending and it tied up nicely
I never gave Gwen much attention at all because I thought she was just some random what if like the multiple Flash Thompson, Betty Grant spider people...
BUT from I know they actually made so many MEANINGFUL changes to the lore that she feels mostly her own
Spider- Gwen is IRONICALLY more of an original character than Miles😭💀. She has her OWN villains, OWN stories from Origin to Motivations. And she isn't some SUPER SMART genius...she's a rockstar drummer😂. And when they noticed her powers were too similar to Peter's they gave her a pernanent controllable symbiote
I might actually give her comics a read now😂🤷♂️
@@ScandalousStarsagain shut up
I like M2 and May Parker Spider-girl
Yeah she’s pretty much different from miles in some ways like you described
The issue is her being shoved in the same universe universe as Peter's Spiderman case and point Disney's crappy Marvel Spiderman where there's 4 spider people attending the same school. Didn't even know there was some stupid baby version of it. Miles is also better off as a successor after Peter's death. Insomniac is doing the mentor and student relationship well enough as long as they don't add SpiderGwen
@@baki484 facts I really dont understand the need to lump ALL characters together just cause they're all popular😭. Like seriously nit even the Batfamily do this
I love these rant videos
my problem with gwen is reading it just feels like reading batgirl. a teenage heroine with her dad (stacey being commissioner gordon) chasing her down and then finding out her identity. its not as original as i wanted it to feel.
and yea, this all just screams that they created a costume for gwen, she was just a concept, and they had NO IDEA of what to do, where to go with her, what her story was, even conceptional event ideas for her or arcs, there was almost nothing
I love Ghost-Spider. Loved her since her appearance since Edge of the Spider-Verse. However I have four issues with her series. First, I want her to get her original powers and not need the Symbiote. Second, I want the issue of Jackal in Earth 65 RESOLVED! Third, what happened to the Storm siblings? You know! Earth 65 Johnny and Susan Storm. The ones who FORCED Gwen to leave New York. And finally my fourth problem, are we sure that Earth 65 MJ isn’t still infected with the Carnage Symbiote. Seriously! Why won’t Marvel resolve these problems?
She’s pretty good too
Spider Gwen Is Cool
Marvel needs you. You’d be like Jiminy Cricket, serving as their common sense. They’re out of touch.
😂
RE: Trans Read -- I haven't heard anyone arguing her comics are a trans allegory, or that she's trans in the comics. The argument is about the movie, which I do read as a trans allegory, but also it's an adaptation and things can change or take on new meaning. Doc Ock was a cis woman in the previous film.
The comics I don't think have any trans material in them, but it's worth noting there's a lot of Rule 63 in that universe (gender swapped characters). Eddie Brock is a woman, Jesse Drew is a man, Captain America is Samantha Wilson, etc. So it makes sense to me that, when adapting this, someone would go "let's take this one step further."
Example -- the X-Men were never intended to be a metaphor for LGBTQ rights. They maaaaaaay have been inspired by the Civil Rights Movement (I'm not totally convinced this was intentional to be honest), and a lot of those same issues just naturally translated to an LGBTQ allegory. Then the Fox movies made this their central allegory, per the filmmakers' own words. Themes can change.
Anyway.... I had no idea she was in 616 now haha. I just caught up on Amazing and Miles and am now reading Champions. I guess I'll catch up on Spider-Gwen eventually, she's always been hit and miss (I didn't like the depowering). FYI, Latour was fired due to sexual harassment.
Pretty good video, and the naming shenanigans are really annoying, especially ghost spider because it has nothing to do with her, but i would like to point out that in 15:40 the 'flag' on her dad's uniform is actually a common badge and you can clearly see it in every other scene, but in that scene it looks weird because of the lighting, like most things Twitter misconstrued that for their own message
It was intentional. The badge became the flag, there’s literally a protect trans kids flag in her room.
exactly. they mostly took only that shot but because it doesnt suit them they ,,forget" about the other one obviously. They kinda keep pushing it like what he said in this video like ,,its allegory so she is trans" and Ive seen many comment on that. And when someone argued, well you guessed it. Many got called transphopic.. And thats when the explanation from this video comes up, they dont know the character really. They say her fear to reveal herself is allegory yet almost every other masked hero has that. totally no logic in arguments there.
Btw Im pretty sure that the flag is there just only by support from some of the creators and doesnt have anything to do with gwen
@@gurglinghermits3043 Literally look at any other scene with him in uniform, its a badge. Even in that scene the colors dont even match the trans colors.
The way Peter Parker was made a villain in the Spider Gwen arc was confusing. I primarily liked the series. One other challenge was the way they tried to add the venom suit into the comic.
I thought it was dope just sad that he died
@@theoutsiderjess1869 Same. He's my favourite hero and to see the script flipped, that hurt. But in a bittersweet way, I felt for Gwen, because I shared her pain of losing someone we both love. Helped me rapidly care about her as a character, even though I'm not her demographic a lot of writers would like to market her towards.
@@theoutsiderjess1869 I know
I actually loved it. It was beautiful in a tragic way.
@@raelee411 okay
@comicstorian Gwen was spider woman for a long time, but then in spidergeddon she was left behind in a desolate wasteland universe with no web watch to get back, she is gone for almost the entire rest of the story, but when she did get back, brining a cavalry of spiders with her, cosmic Spider-Man was like, “is it really you, and not some weird ghost or something?” And she was like “I kinda like that, GHOST SPIDER!” Yes, it was kinda shoehorned in, but it also fit for the ver major circumstance of the name’s origin.
Did you notice that Marvel released the first issue of Spider-Gwen last week and that Marvel is now making Spider-Gwen permanently stay in the main Marvel universe?
7:00 to be fair that cartoon avoids calling Peter Parker Spider-Man too. They just call him Spidey for the same reason, but that makes more sense than Spin.
This is what happens when writers and artists don't talk or lay out rules when creating characters.peepee 616 Spiderman has rules, thats why his plot has a bit more to it.
And it not just spidergwen/gwen. This is an issue for all throwaways that someone get more than they should have. Its like the creators go into panic mode
I know it is dated, but I was working on a Spider-Gwen universe fan creation with some details looking for artists who would be interested in working with me on it. I don't mind sharing some ideas but it kind of falls into a sense-
She accidentally kills her best friend, her mom developed a drug addiction and left, she is busted for his murder but that version of She-Hulk helps her not face punishment, people still distrust her cause ultimately her actions killed her best friend, flash forward she registered for Shield training, she crosses over through universes including a story where she has to insure her own death in the prime universe, gets her powers second hand from the ability to cloak from Miles through a blood transfusion, her inability to develop relationships, and eventually all in the first 2 years, eventually leading her facedown with the drug dealer who killed her mom. The story is still being wrote looking for a place to host the stories for people to read.. like what I shared so far, like it to motivate me to continue writing and searching for a place to host- it helps me out
Thank God Sony is over the Spider-Verse movies cause if this was Disney they would've ran with what people are saying on twitter and fuck up the last movie.
The issue with most heroes is that they dont have interesting interpersonal relationships, or villains that really sell the story
The Death of Croco-Pete is a hard sell. Do we believe anyone cared enough about it to convict her?
They keep leaning into her being super interactive with the multiverse. I personally think the restructuring of the universe is really cool, Matt Murdock being King Pin, S.I.L.K. being an organization rather than a person. Its like Jojo part 7. Then Gwen being all these heroes came like Gwenpool or the dumb Gwenverse. Earth 65's scramble is interesting on its own. I like that Gwen is now a symbiote user. I like that Venom isnt a klyntar. The universe she is in feels refreshing having us guess where every characters at.
I like the Spider-Gwen is trans theory. It adds another layer of relatability to her character.
One of my favorite theories in One Piece is that Zoro is trans.
Kuina is a master swordswoman, she hates to lose, she hates being a woman.
Zoro has pronounced chest scars, has vowed to never lose again, he wields her sword,
and he is constantly striving toward his idea of peak masculinity, becoming better than Dracule Mihawk.
Until they show Spider-Gwen's birth certificate people can call her trans, I think it's neat.
Jackal ALWAYS has another Clone. Its just what happens
I haven't read the story, but... Uhm.... unless it still bonded with Cletus Cassidy first, why would the Carnage symbiote with MJ be evil? It was the bonding with Cletus Cassidy that made it insane in the first place. Actually, the idea of a Carnage multiversal counterpart being a hero would be interesting.
Because it's not actually a proper Carnage symbiote, but was actually just one of Knull's blank slate symbiotes that managed to get a piece of Gwen's artificial symbiote, merging with the piece and then latching on to Earth-65 MJ.
They don’t always immediately make headlines for situations like this, especially for media for kids. Like how Dumbledore was “gay” in hindsight, or Korra in LOK.
Not saying Gwen is trans, but there’s nothing stopping this version from being one
Plus, another major reason ideas like that tend to exist is very explicitly because someone being cisgender or heterosexual in fiction is so inherently assumed that no specification is made or deemed necessary compared to people, for some reason, absolutely NEEDING up front, no-subtext confirmation to believe a character doesn't fit those labels. So when you combine these allegories like this with an absence of context provided by the creator, you get something that may not have been intended but certainly looks obvious nonetheless.
I am trans, and I love Gwen, and I wish it were true, but I agree.
She can't be trans in the movie because she wasn't trans in the books. But I do think that the clues that my community have picked up were put there as a statement. And I dont begrudge anyone who head cannons her as trans because representation matters and trans representation is woefully non-existant.
If you see a trans person sharing this theory, please let them have it. There is no need for the argument, and life is really fucking hard for our community right now.
One counterpoint to "they have an established history. So we know they aren't gay." Iceman. 40 years later and he is suddenly closeted gay and Jean helps him come out. Now he is as gay as he can be, even dressing in drag for the Hellfire Gala.
Tbh I dont Spider-Gwen would have been that obscure without the movie because Disney also started to randomly push her into their animated shows while funny enough killing off the orginal idea of gwen stacy being a spiderman love interest.
Also funny enough Marvel got tired of the name thing so they made it canon that the people in her world know her identity so she can be known officially as Spider-Gwen 😂. Speaking of which the only name change I think you can give Miles is to call him Ultimate Spiderman or name him after a specific spider which would still be clunky tbh.
I want mayday parker back
Great Vid! Yes Yes and Yes!
Whole reason I even discovered Spider Gwen back during her first debut was cuz I searched up “Female Spider Man” in google for “research purposes”
Since there's a lot of superheroes with the same name example: Spider-Man (Peter Parker) and Spider-Man (Miles Morales) have the same name but by using nicknames referencing the places their from Queens being Peter since he's from Queens and Brooklyn Being Miles since he's from Brooklyn or where they live you can easily identify who's who and as for why they have same superhero name it's because they have the same powers their Spider-Men this also applies their counterparts in another dimensions such as those who have Spider-Woman and Spider-Girl as their names.
Another thing they have as identifiers is titles Like Ultimate Spider-Man is Miles and Amazing Spider-Man is Peter like how reverse Flash Hunter is Zoom and Reverse Flash eobard is Professor Zoom
Glad u brought up the crazy trans theory from twitter. Those people are insane, and she is a great character.
why is it insane tho? she can be trans. what's wrong with that? it's not even a crazy theory, she literally has a trans flag in her room and her entire story feels like a coming out story.
@@elektrasgf she could be trans if they wrote the character that way, but they didn't so she isn't. There's clearly no cap on the number of spider characters, why not make a trans spider person? Why change Gwen just to change her?
@@joshllorens4514 how do you know they didn't? they put the flags, they wrote the story of a trans person. i think the creators are aware that gwen feels like a trans person in the movie. and even if it's not canon, people are allowed to have headcanons. headcanons have always been a big part of fandom culture, why not just let people think whatever they want? if trans people feel connected to gwen and see her as a trans woman, let them. it doesn't hurt anyone.
@@joshllorens4514 I don’t necessarily think she’s trans, but she’s obviously a trans allegory in those scenes, and if trans people see those scenes and see her as one of them for it, that’s perfectly fine by me
@@elektrasgf never was
never will be
20:01 people argue based on what its shown in the movie even if the comics said that she wasn't trans the movie says otherwise
I’ve never seen you so angry
I feel sorry for both spider-gwen and miles morales.
They both deserve better right
atleast they're written very well in the movies
Honestly, Benny...you're NUTS.
I'm talking tin foil hat worn in church on a Sunday kinda Crazy.
But, when it comes to Spider-Gwen and what you said in this video? I 100% agree with you.
This was a job well done and something you should be proud of.
I also appreciate how you identify and resonate with Agent Venom.
And in mentioning that, I've never taken the time to say it and that's my bad, but with admiration and respect Thank you for your Service, Benny. I'm grateful for what you did before Comicstorian and the content you've shared with the world since then.
the same could be said about how Miguel O'Hara will always be Spider-Man 2099
The sad thing is, which I don't think they will, but Marvel could change Gwen to trans to pander to the people on Twitter claiming she is. It happened in the Papa food games. A character named Lizel has been a female since 2018. (or 2016) Only this year they release a Flipdeck of her now being "trans," even though she wasn't for years. Some fans in the fandom have been demanding more LGBTQ characters, so the developers listened and changed her.
I kinda like her. My favourite Spider-Woman.
I know the reason why…
@@saturnianrings3920 😂
I like her too especially after across the spider verse
overall let me say i love this video, been a fan of Spidergwen for ages. but with the trans thing I agree 99% of companies want to make stuff like being trans huge news, it's why disney has had 8 "first gay character" headlines. but a lot of the lgbt community don't want our identity to be everything, we want it to be just part of us. so a good writer will do that, make it a flag above a door or on a patch on a jacket. although that's just my opinion here.
It's not that deep
@@Marika_ER idk what you mean, what I said is pretty simple.
@@Marika_ER what dude said is easily digestible.
Benny 😂😂 you right..
Can't wait for a video entitled "The Problem with... Benny"
And it's starring Fang
I think that Spider-Gwen should have been a one off character. Her sticking around in comics kinda ruins her death. Gwens death is a defining for Peter. It showed the hero doesnt always win and started blaming himself for it.
Agreed, she is interesting in like a small dosage like Miles. They are now thrusted into every medium that is spider-man related: Ultimate Spider-man, Marvel's Spider-man. Personally believe that Into the spider-verse and Across the spider-verse would be better for Miles and Gwen if they were not previously just forced into every Spider related Medium.
Nah, what ruined her is how stories can't end and everything has to be connected. If she was allowed to be a self-contained storyline, unrelated to the rest of the marvel universe, they coulda done more with her. Tell a few arcs, finish your run, thats the end of the character, new writer, new story, not a continuation of the old story. This is how animated TV shows do it. It's the modern approach that every new take is a reboot.
That is interesting
@@Hadeks_Marow oh wow never would that is how reboots of old classic shows are done
@@Evorexwolf that would be cool
I think most people know of her, but just like you said its really hard to KNOW her (if that makes sense) because of all the reboots.
Most comic book readers know about her. The general public doesn’t. That’s where all this trans stuff came from.
@@christianrapper yeah I was completely confused why people were talking about this trans stuff after I had finished the movie. I think personally its a reach because I didnt even notice the sign she had in her room until I saw the movie a second time lol
Ben always spittin 🫡
This video is just 1000%, spot on. My bro and I were so hype for Spider-Gwen being picked up that it's the first time either of us subbed to an ongoing, ever. Then they did all the relaunch nonsense. When they said Spider-Gwen was cancelled I had no choice but to accept that as truth and cancelled my subscription, they tried to convince me to stay on because "something would replace it" but as a paying customer that was a crap offer. We swore never to subscribe again.
I would like to be a bit more generous to Spider-Gwen on a few points. I think her EoSV issue had more going on than just her costume. It was a nice, clean origin story and a very back to basics Spider-tale, without all the baggage and complexities of Peter Parker or even Miles (a kid of two realities at that point.) This is important because Marvel, Latour and Rodriguez took all the wrong lessons from Spider-Gwen's overnight success. Her book was flooded with multiverse mini-events and crossovers. Every other issue felt like an excuse to introduce some whacky new take on a classic character, such as Captain America (Samantha Wilson btw,) which could have been fine, but they introduced new characters so fast that they never focused on fleshing out anyone. Then Maguire shows up, and rather than fixing the prior problems, Gwen is just completely retooled into a cookie cutter melodramatic YA novel, with Ghost-Spider herself reading like an entirely different person from the one we just followed for all of Spider-Gwen.
I'm really thankful for the movies. She feels like the Spider-Gwen who was introduced in Edge of Spider-verse #2 and the original 5 issue run of Spider-Gwen. That's not the only book the films worked triage on either, the storyline where Gwen and Miles team up always felt like a forced, editorial level gimmick. The films make their relationship out to be incredibly rich, deep and complicated. Their chemistry in the films feels explosive where their chemistry in Sitting in a Tree was as explosive as a baking soda volcano, no vinegar.
*Symboite spider woman from another universe* sounds like the name I would use. Even traveling universes… lol
I really love the King of Black event. If you know me I love the Gwenom suit.
I know less about Gwen besides what the movie and event. That’s all…
Here something:
I was playing with a game with a friend.
It was a guessing game and I was thinking Spider-gwen, I was thinking Ghost Spider, and my friend said Spider Woman. When I thought I got them, technically we were both right…
We both know her Gwen but the name thing is annoying.
Enjoyed this video but I would like to throw in my perspective of Spider-Gwen being trans here. It goes a lot further than just her storyline being a trans allegory, on top of that being the case, which granted you can transfer that story to so many different marginalized groups, as a trans woman I’ve never met an ally who actually has a trans flag in their room unless they are actually trans, this doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist but it’s extremely rare. Aside from that she wears a trans flag pin on her jacket and the use of pink, blue, and white in her color palette when she’s coming out to her dad as Spider-Woman very much seems like an explicit choice by the filmmakers.
That said, whether she is or isn’t or whether the filmmakers state it outright her storyline does very much represent struggles that the trans community faces and in my eyes she will always represent the trans community. Thanks for your videos
Idk I'm not trans and I have a couple trans pins just to be supportive. I have some for lesbians too even though I'm bi. I guess I just saw it as the filmmakers wanting to sneak things in to be supportive, though I'm also a long time spider Gwen reader so how she is in my head is pretty fixed at this point. Totally love the way queerness is being more openly discussed when talking about comics now. I've been reading Superman as a queer allegory for years and back in the day people would refuse to see it, now it feels like people are really open to cool alternative readings.
@@asf8648 love this ❤️ I’m also loving the queer representation in comics lately. Thank you for being so openly supportive 🥰 ever since seeing ATSV I definitely see her as trans but a lot of that is how there is so little representation for trans characters in media. I could see it as just being an allegory but even if that’s the case I’m gonna head cannon her as trans in my head lol whether she is or isn’t though I love the use of the trans flag colors in her big scene and seeing the flag with protect trans kids 🥹
I hate that Marvel just decided to completely drop her continuity. The last ongoing book she had ended with her effectively being kicked out of Earth-65 by her version of Sue and Johnny Storm and going to college on Earth-616. King In Black happened and her MJ was brought to 616 and turned into Carnage and then... nothing.
Gwenverse happened which completely ignored everything I just mentioned and now "Shadow Clones" is happening where she's fighting clones of herself mixed with 616 Spider-Man villains
One important thing to say is that just because a character is a new iteration or is based on a pre-existing character, it doesn’t mean all traits are carried over. ITSV Miles is VASTLY different from ultimate Miles, even though some of the story beats or plot points are the same, and the same applies here. Just because the original or any later comic iterations of Spider Gwen aren’t trans doesn’t mean that this movie incarnation necessarily isn’t. While I do agree that her being trans should be more explicit, that doesn’t make the clear coding any less intentional on the part of the creators of the movie, as, completely ignoring the allegory argument, those visual details were clearly placed in an intentional manner.