Why Gwen Stacy Doesn't Work as a Character Anymore
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Why Gwen Stacy Doesn't Work as a Character Anymore | (Video Essay)
Spider-man character Gwen Stacy is the long lasting love interest of Peter Parker aka Spider-Man from the early Marvel Comic books from the 1960s. This video tackles the idea of why she doesn't work as a character anymore in Spider-Man media / adaptations.
Become a Member:
/ @lewisfilmsproductions
- - OTHER CHANNELS - -
LewisFiction: / @lewisfanfiction
LewisNews: / @lewisnews
Slightly Insulting: / @lewisnews
- - Social Media - -
Discord Server: / discord
Instagram: / lewisfilms2002
Twitter: / imadlewisyt
- - Copyright Stuff - -
All art is owened by it's respective owners and credit goes to the artists. I do not intend to claim any of it as my own, any art that is subsiquently used from Comic Books/Graphic Novels is purely for representational purposes. - Zábava
The great thing about the Ultimate Comics, is how easily he changed the character. It was a massively drastic change, but it worked because it wasn't the same Gwen. She still died, but her character had much more depth and was very different from the original character.
and i don’t think she should have died either, to me it felt like they were trying to hard to fit the old gwen story, even though she was a basically a new character.
Is it just me, or do I find it fascinating that ever since Emma Stone's version from the TASM movies, we are seeing more of Gwen Stacy in other Spider-Man media such as the other movies or TV shows rather than Mary Jane? Just a thought that came to mind.
Yeah and that she didn’t deserve to die because she was loyal to Peter unlike the other love interests
It's likely because Toby Maguire's movies had a pretty bad Mary Jane relationship.
Well in Spider-Man (2002), I thought she was OK. However when I watched Spider-Man 2 and 3, that's when I started to depise her.
@@ishaanallidina9848 the same
Oh the irony, because that Gwen (Emma) is just a blonde Mary Jane.
Spiderverse movies gave Gwen a great character arc that doesn't just make her a soulless love interest who's just there to please Spider-Man and die
To be fair, Gwen isn't such a bad character at all. Look at the TASM movies. They showed that you can write a good character when the story fits. And Emma Stone nailed the role as Gwen Stacy.
Spectacular Spider-Man also had an "amazing" adaptation of Gwen Stacy and given her some room to develop chemistry and a possible romantic relationship with Peter.
Plus, the Spider-Verse's version of Gwen Stacy has such an amazing character development in borh films, especially in ATSV, due to her chemistry with Miles. So there are moments where Gwen Stacy can work as a character, it just depends on the writers and which story that writer wants her to participate in.
Is it really a good adaptation of Gwen Stacy in the movies if they change her character completely and steal MJ traits?
@@XwoooahX it if if they didn't do that lmao, and focus on giving Gwen some new stories to tell like Spider-Verse for example. Perhaps maybe if we explore more of Gwen's world, we can learn a lot more of what this Gwen interesting, compared to the original Gwen Stacy.
@@Mr.Martin1996 Sure, I mean Spider-Gwen in comics and movies is like a completely different character than original Gwen. Kind of like MCU MJ is completely different than Mary Jane.
The fact that Gwen Stacy is terribly adapted isn't a knock against her, it's just a problem with the screewriters not doing the characters justice. The same is for Mary Jane, she has been horribly adapted on film.
Honestly it's sad that the horrible Spider-Man Lotus fan project is the most comic accurate and best portrayals of both Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane... even though that film is guilty of overblowing Gwen's importance too changing it to where Peter was going to propose and never talking about his feelings for MJ in it. In the comics, Peter was not about to propose to Gwen before she died, and it had previously been established that Peter had love at first site for MJ and almost forgot about Gwen over meeting MJ except that he thought MJ wasn't that into him, so he settled for dating Gwen instead.
I wish if anything we could see Gwen and MJ on a hollywood produced quality film portrayed accurately. That would actually make it worth it to have Gwen back again just to set the record straight on the characters.
@@XwoooahX People behind Spider-Man Lotus wasted so much time trying to prove Jon Watts, Marvel and Sony as to how to make a Spider-Man movie rather than developing characters, let alone respecting the source material. They had a chance to take characters like Peter and Gwen, and MJ and Harry and have fun with all of their relationships together, but even when they did so, they couldn't even half of that right lol
Especially for MJ, who, while looked and felt like Mary Jane, even they kinda wasted the character with how they've written the movie.
I HATED how much of a prick Peter was to her. Not even Raimi's MJ got that aggressive towards Peter, and neither should he vice versa.
We need more stories involving these two great love interests for Peter Parker/Spider-Man, but being done right. So I do agree with what you're saying on that though.
@@Mr.Martin1996 Cool, yeah agree on last part. I also think Lotus had a big miss with what it did even though the characters were accurate, it did not take advantage and show what it needed to show.
This is why I think it would be better to focus on a more grown and developed peter in media so we don’t have to worry about knowing this character is gonna die.
I 100% Agree With This. Like everytime I saw Gwen in any Spider-Man media, you know what is her fate's gonna end up... "Snap".
Just to rank some Gwen incarnations. Just my preferences.
1. Spider-Gwen: Basically a wholly different character in her own right, and is essentially only named Gwen Stacy for that whole role reversal aspect. Her first couple of issues are pretty fun, but I think I speak for a lot of people with saying her Spiderverse self has grown to become her definitive incarnation. Absolutely love her story, her development and her growing relationship with Miles.
2. TASM Films: Sweet, smart, yet stern. Really just for Emma Stone’s acting and her chemistry with Andrew. While those films were overly bloated and made some really odd writing decisions, her death in TASM 2 was still incredibly heartbreaking.
3. Spectacular: Not too dissimilar to the TASM incarnation. To be honest, I can find her just a tiny bit boring at times as a love interest (which could probably be bias for MJ being endgame), and the fact I was actually finding Liz to be a fair bit compelling. I’m sure when they were going to adapt her eventual death it would’ve been the most heartbreaking out of all her different incarnations, considering how much time we’ve spent with her.
4. Ultimate: Also a very different adaptation. I much prefer this Gwen over her original comic self and her and Peter’s relationship initially being kept platonic (until stupid happened). Had a couple of twists with the whole Carnage thing, but it worked out in the end. And I adore the fact May basically adopts her. Will say, this is one of those cases of her taking a couple traits from MJ, but to some degree I say it places them on equal footing for the series.
To be honest, I say ultimate for number 3, but other than that, cool list.
Ultimate was my favourite twist on Gwen
spider-verse gwen is not the definitive version of spider-gwen
@@BaconManGaming101 Neither of us make the rules, man. The Spiderverse films simply have done too much of a perfect job in adapting the character. For a lot of people, this is Spider-Gwen. Hell, for a lot of people this is the only Gwen Stacy, with the exception of Emma Stone’s, worth acknowledging.
@@StevenJG you mean emma stone
also no they didn't do a perfect job of adapting spider-gwen
Great video! I’ve always thought the same thing. It’s funny how people who’ve never read the comics will praise Gwen for traits that MJ has and bash MJ for traits that Gwen has lol
They are the people who watched Raimi movies. And rn zeb wells is doing that too. He’s literally adapting Raimi movie. Peter calling Osborn father figure.
Zeb wells is literally ruining all ASM characters.
@@lolhaipop yes especially in the kindred saga that was never the case
I know, right. I can’t believe Sam Rami mistook MJ for Gwen.
@@kasam0308
Well can you blame him? MJ had waaay more story than Gwen, obviously because Gwen was killed off early on, where as MJ just kept going on and remains to this day. She basically became Lois Lane, the one and only for Peter, which ended up going sour now that she's more of a curse than a blessing in Peter's life.
I could be wrong but I. Personally the best way to fix this problem is to somehow merge the story of spider-Gwen and the original character of gene Stacey into one, and have her be one of Peter s first love interest and then maybe have them both drift apart and eventually have her become her own person and be a friend and ally to Peter.
Good Idea
@@spideyfan6441 thanks
@@ethandoyle4978 anytime
I get what you're saying, but I disagree. Although she's mainly just set up to pass away to progress Peter's character, she can still work as a character if you develop her enough as an individual, so that she isn't just a story prop for Peter. If I were adapting a Spider-Man story, I'd make Gwen just as much of a main character as Peter, maybe even show off the events of Spider-Man's villain battles from her innocent bystander point of view.
The other option, if they really wanted to be bold, is to have MJ offed in the movies and make Peter's "one true love" Gwen, thereby swapping out the characters like the Raimi movies already did.
Why do people Ignore the fact that spectacular spider-man was CANCELLED when talking about Gwen Stacy in the show. they were obviously planning for her to be killed. green goblin still being alive, Mary Jane becoming more involved/developed, the fact that Spectacular spider-man is comic accurate for the most part.
Not necessarily
I do believe it was stated that the eventual endgame plan for Spectacular was to have Peter marry Mary Jane, but besides that, we really don't know much about how the series intended to get to that point. I do agree it's hightly likely they intended to kill Gwen off, probably in one of the straight to DVD movies they had planned, but we don't know that for sure. I could also see a scenario playing out where they kept Gwen alive, but made it so that a romance between her and Peter just never came together, with something always getting in the way, and eventually Peter finds his way to Mary Jane, and decides to move on.
Doubt it. 'Spectacular Spider-Man' never touched upon a character dying on screen, specially a love interest. If she was meant to die, or fake it, it would've happened at the end of season 2, as that was literally the arc of the alleged death of Norman Osborn.
@@radrno7 Actually the creator of the show explained this in an interview for a podcast. The reason why they had no intention of killing Gwen in the TV show, at least according to him, was because the show takes place entirely in high school. Gwen isn't supposed to die until her college years. Supposedly the plan for spectacular was to have 5 seasons on TV that would cover all of Peter's high school career. Then after the show was over, they would release several straight to DVD movies that would cover Peter's college career. Since the audience for spectacular would have grown up some by this point, they could use the DVD movies as a way to tell some of Spider-Man's more mature stories. This would have been the point where they could actually cover the death of Gwen Stacy arc, and since we had way more time to get to know Gwen in this version of the story…that probably would have been the most heartbreaking version of the story ever told.
@@DevilHunter1994
Ok, yeah, that seems more plausible, but I still doubt a lot they would actually put on screen a scene of a love interest literally dying and Spider-Man having to deal with that. That would be something I could only see in 'Teen Titans' or 'X-Men', which we have as they had a heavier style for the most part. At best, I could imagine something like Norman's death and they ending up with her still alive, but she stays in a coma for a while.
I'll be honest, Gwen's death is partly why I think she'd be an interesting character to appear in the next MCU Spider-man films.
Her role has always been: the first love that was lost. But in the MCU films, Peter has already had and subsequently lost his first love.
The writers could use the audience's knowledge of Gwen's death and toy with us a little. Will Peter lose this as well? Will it work out in the end?
The writers actually committing to what NWH set up, and never bringing back MJ would be an interesting twist on the Spider-Man story
That’s actually a very good point
I agree with this! A lot of Gwen versions in comics just died, and the few that survived don't got together with Peter at the end (I believe only two or three versions of this couple actually got together).
It would a fun little twist if they bring Gwen to be the final girl in the MCU.
Speaking of No Way Home, I heard a weird rumor I’m curious if there’s any truth to it. Apparently when No Way Home was being made, the writers were considering making Variants of Ned and MJ the main villains of the film. I’m curious how the film would have turned out lol!
Gwen wasn't comic peter's first love that was betty brant
Thanks for talking about the differences in "spider-gwen". I do just love how Spider-gwen is a what if idea that took off, "what if Gwen was bit". well, does the comic do that? no, because Gwen Stacy in that universe is absolutely nothing like gwen in 616 or traditional media, she's that quirky, awkward shy teenager who just slouches her "gwen" life.
I honestly want to know what would've happened if the 616 Gwen who was "so beautiful, Parker would never have a change" was bitten as that would've been a more interesting story imo.
We have a glimpse of it with the crossover of the two Gwen in Spider-Gwen V.2 #29-31. At the end of the Gwenom ark, Gwen-65 felt in face of her 616 counterpart. While helping Gwen-65 at overcome her anger and then come at peace with her symbiote, this event changed the now E-617 Gwen too. She later bons with a symbiote, became a Spider-Woman herself and even founded the Council of Spider-Women. The fate of her Earth Peter is unknown.
The main problem that "what if Gwen was bit" is that Gwen didn't study at Midtown High in E-616. So creating a "true" Spider-Gwen comic would mean that you need a full cast of new caracter. And the fact that the comic appear only 3 years after the creation of Miles Morales, there was a risk probably that a smart girl in a new school would like too much alike. This is probably why they choose to go with a Spectacular/Ultimate Spider-Man high school casting.
Having read Original Gwen stuff yea she sucked. I think it's kinda interesting that MJ was a very progressive and subversive love interest for the time.
It's kinda why i prefer the ultimate comics version and the version we see in the spiderverse films where she's got abit of a punk edge. It's also why The whole GwenxMiles stuff doesn't bug me. I am just not attached to it and Marvel using Gwen as the reason Peter can't marry mj makes me resentful of it.
I think the big mistake people make with writing new iterations of Gwen is that they slavishly hew to the idea that her death HAS TO BE the most important thing about her. I honestly think if they'd kept Gwen alive at the end of TASM2 and made her one of Spidey's "people in the chair," she could have had a fantastic story that kept her alive and made it so that they lasted.
I also think original Gwen's relatively poor depiction in the comics is the fault of writers who didn't give her the development she needed to be interesting or compelling. I love Stan Lee, but it appears he was very much writing Gwen as a stand-in for his wife, and kept forcing that to happen, making her inconsistent and at times bland.
Amusingly, I recently covered (both big iterations of) Gwen Stacy a couple days ago on my podcast. I would have loved to have seen this video before then, but am glad you made it. I may not agree with everything you said, but I appreciate your approach to topics like this. 🙂
What's your podcast, if you don't mind my asking?
Imagine if the spider gwen comics was made back in 2012, Sony would've used her as way to bring in more spin offs in their own cinematic universe other than Andrew's spider-man.
@@jkjordon1
They had plans for that, but she would've been a clone.
Seriously, I don't see what's so special about Gwen Stacy. Like you said, in the comics, she's just a pretty girl who always feels sorry for herself, which is exactly like MJ from the Sam Raimi movies. In fact, it's the exact same problem with Serena from Pokemon. Everyone said that she is the perfect girl for Ash than Misty, even though she only met him for 5 minutes after he cured her stupid knee when they were kids.
Serena is Gwen Stacy of pokemon change my mind
The TASM movies really made people think Gwen and Peter were good couple together. In reality, in the comics, Gwen blamed Spider-Man for her father's death and swore she would hate Spider-Man until the day she died, leading Peter to fear telling her his secret and lying to her all the time which resulted in her crying and complaining all the time that he would run off unexplained.
Meanwhile, Peter and MJ not only shared Peter's secret but married and surpassed Peter and Gwen in every way in closeness and intimacy. The TASM movies are a good peak into what Peter and MJ are like in the comics, but bear no resemblance to Peter and Gwen's relationship, which is a real shame. It's sad people don't know what Peter and MJ are truly like vs. Peter and Gwen. Gwen is the most overrated Spider-Man love interest of all time due to her adaptations and not her actual real character in the comics. Almost everything people love about Peter and Gwen's relationship on film was stolen from Peter and MJ in the comics.
People who say that Gwen is the best for Peter has only watched movies and not the comics. Gwen loves Peter, not Spider-Man. Felicia loves Spider-Man, not Peter. MJ is the one who loves both.
@@jeppyjep Facts. Even Felicia, who people say love Peter now, showed her true colors by breaking up with Peter because he wasn't trying to get her not to steal things and she wasn't trying to corrupt him. She wants a toxic game of flirting with Spidey, not a real relationship with Peter Parker.
Also, I know MJ is currently with Paul, but now that the kids are gone and that magic is broken that Rabin prayed the gods for - for MJ to "accept her chains", she has been very miserable with Paul since then. I do not think it was ever true love with him, and it was all due to magic kids and the magic link created between her and the kids. Peter and MJ will be together again. \m/
I wouldn't ssy she's the most overrated love interest in Spider-Man media, more like the most important love interest. Just as important as MJ, although Peter and MJ were treated better.
And while I do agree that Gwen did blamed Spider-Man for her father's death, at least Gwen eventually was able to accept that it wasn't Spider-Man's fault later on, and gets back together with Peter before she died by Green Goblin.
And Gwen isn't such a bad character at all. Look at the TASM movies. Like you said, they did a good job of developing the relationship of Peter and Gwen, something the Raimi movies should've done with Peter and MJ.
Plus, the Spider-Verse's version of Gwen Stacy has such an amazing character development in borh films, especially in ATSV, due to her chemistry with Miles. So there's that lol
@@Mr.Martin1996 "Gwen eventually was able to accept that it wasn't Spider-Man's fault later on, and gets back together with Peter before she died by Green Goblin."
When did this happen? Gwen never learned Peter was Spider-Man because he never told her, so I do not recall her ever accepting it wasn't Spider-Man's fault.. in fact Clone Conspiracy shows she died hating Spider-Man still.
Gwen's importance lies in her death and "what could have been". Peter is more hung up about how he couldn't save her more than he actually loving her. Her top actual moments with Peter include sitting on a bench and saying she loves him - but still not ever know in who he was. If they had true love then there should have been no secrets, but Peter kept secrets until the day she died at her expense and her emotional turmoil.
Meanwhile MJ has married Peter, gotten pregnant with his child, had countless night of sex and Spidey talk with him, etc.
Based on their impact MJ his Peter's girl for life and Gwen is a girl he dated a couple years in college. Peter has told MJ flat out he loves her more than he ever loved Gwen, and there are multiple universes where Peter has a family and children with MJ like Spider-Girl, Renew Your Vows, and Life Story. The fact that people think Gwen is as important as MJ is where she is overrated... and the belief is not from the comics, it's in adaptations of her in movies where the relationship is changed completely to be like Peter and MJ's.
@@Mr.Martin1996sorry man, but that just isn’t true. Gwen is not as important as MJ. MJ is the love of Peter’s life and has had the bigger impact on the Spider-Man mythos. Her and Peter were married for 20 whole years. And Gwen was a pretty stereotypical love interest when it came to personality and characteristics. 616 Gwen just simply isn’t special outside of the fact that she’s dead
I’m so sick of Gwen Stacy. The fact that adaptations treat her with more respect than they do Mary Jane is absurd
Facts
Same
Polar Opposites
MJ: Best in comic, Bad in Adaptations
Gwen: Bad in comic, Better in Adaptations.
@@spider-man500 how bizarre
Gwen Stacy is way better than MJ and way more caring and actually useful and have a way better personality and cares about Peter more than she does. Spider-Man Mary Jane cares about Spider-Man more than Peter. She even said it
I still enjoy Gwen's character in things like Spectacular Spider-Man (my favourite version of the character) the TASM movies and Spider Gwen. Since in all those adaptions I just mentioned they make her an interesting and enjoyable character to me but I see your point
Yes
I honestly wonder if they would have even been able to kill off Gwen (and her father, for that matter) during Spectacular's run, had it been allowed to continue to that point. Wasn't Spectacular marketed towards kids, and don't the studios get squeamish about things like killing off characters when kids are the primary audience?
I guess we'll never know, but it's something I think about from time to time.
@@spideylibrarian Well, they did manage to keep the Harry's drug addicion plotline with some creative manuvering, So I think they could have made the deaths of Gwen and Capitan Stacy work too. This is probably why they were planning to tell the story of Peter's college years in straight to DVD films, after the main series was over. By then, the audience who had watched the show would have been older, and going straight to DVD, rather than public TV, would have likely given them the ability to remain more faithful to the darker and more mature elements of the story.
I would love to see you do a hypothetical video on how to fix Peter and MJ and a story arc to erase One More Day with a Mayday Parker in the mix.
I'm just curious to see how you could do it if you were writing and editorial left you alone to do it.
I’ve already done a video similar but depending on how the run goes I may make another
@@LewisFilmsProductions
Cool, I'll look forward to it! 👍
Well Spider-Gwen is from a different world and different time line. So she will be a different yeah. Nothing stays the same. Maybe thats a good thing. So more character in her. By all means I would love see Gwen like Blossom from the classic 90's Powerpuff Girls. She is smart and a badass with a sweet heart. I would love to see that side of Gwen as a hero or just a Is person
To sum up, Spider-Gwen is the goat.
I mean Gwen Stacy dying was an end to her story so it doesn’t make sense to keep adding her to new movies
Hey Lewis I heard that in the 90s cartoon that Felicia Hardy's character was supposed to be Gwen but they decided to scrap it because of what you basically summed up in the video.
Fair enough then!
Look, I love Gwen Stacy and all, but they need to use someone else as the love interest for Spider-Man, bring back Mary Jane, bring Liz Allen, introduce Sophia Sanduval if you have to…Just take a break from Gwen Stacy for a while
To be fair gwen was only a love interest for Peter in 2 adaptations (3 if you count Sam raimi)
I honestly like how Ghost Spider is changing people's view on the idea behind 'The Death Of Gwen Stacy'. Although death should mean something, I argue sometimes ressurrection can make a character far better. I mean, who would've prefered to keep Bucky Barnes as Captain America's sidekick that died over the cool af Winter Soldier? Or how about Jason Todd as Batman's Robin over the badass Red Hood? Maybe it's time for us to see classic stories differently.
616 Gwen best known for hating Spidey so much she supported a LITERAL racist because he didn't like Spidey too and getting fridged.
3 comments (minus mine) and only 2 show up. I wonder what that missing comment said hmmmm 🤔
Wait, really? 0.0
Who was this character and what was he racist against?
@@scifiguy9000she wasn’t racist but she did work start working with a white supremacist after her dad died
@@scifiguy9000 The guy in question was Sam Bullit. A guy running for DA and roughed up Peter and Robbie for reasons that I don’t remember. Hell, Jameson even supported Bullit until Robbie revealed that asshole’s true colours. Bullit got arrested for his crimes later.
@@scifiguy9000 basically what the other comment said. He's anti civil rights, supports and is backed by hate groups, says very stereotypical things about left-wingers, and after being called out by Robbie he says "anyone tell ya you know too much, black man"
@@TheOvervoid No wonder people focus on the George's death bit and Gwen's but not the in-betweens! Man's an asshole and I bet he would hate mutantkind!
Peter Parker & MJ were always meant to be together. MJ is named drop by aunt May for Peter BEFORE Gwen Stacy’s appearance.
Another thing about Spectacular Spider-Man’s Gwen is that the show was cut in half and don’t get all its seasons. Gwen could’ve vary well died in season 3 or 4.
Gwen stacy is known for thr following :
1. Being peter's first true love; not only is she peter first true relationship where he genuinely considered giving up being spidey and live a normal life.
2 . Her death at the hands of green goblin; not only a defining moment for peters tenure a spiderman but also in mary jane character arc as gwen became not just a rival to mj but became a close friend who truly broke through to her and help her become the mj we all know and love. Not to mention the moment that brought forth the most horrendous reckon next to one more day.
3. Her connection to miles warren the jackal; given warrens obession with her and evntual breakdown upon learning of her death leading to the convulted and famous clone saga once but three times over.
4. Spider gwen arguebly her most recent role in the comica and one that has brought new life into gwen stacy as a character much like spider punk (hobbie brown).
Now then the problem much like spideys rogue is the is that writers tend to keep the more fan favorite constantly coming back for arcs and storylines with only a few returning forgotten rogues or create new one shot villians. Hell you know what wouldve been a good idea during the whole kindred saga instead of the stacy twins it shouldve been a resurected gwen controled by mephisto tying it as revenge for one more day. Now as to the idea it wouldve been fun to see gwen in a brbara gordon oracle situation; by this i mean both her an peter were brainiacs when it came to science it couldve been fun having and early spidey solving cases with gwens help when he was battling his rogues similar to mj's role in the ps4 game. It would allow for more time to expand on peter and gwen dynamic leading to her death. Honestly if id make my own take on spidey's universe thats one of the issues id try to adress.
I hate Zeb Wells for ruining my Favourite comic and Characters. This run really needs to be retcon.
Disagree a bit. I agree taking traits that MJ normally has and placing them onto Gwen hurts both characters in the end. But having her completely left out of future stories simply cause the most interesting thing about her is her death feels wrong. Gwen only existing to die is sad honestly. This is Peter's first love! The one that reienforced the idea that even Spiderman can't save everyone! And her no having much in her original comics is completely the fault of her creators! How can the people who made a girl with nothing to her also make a girl who is far more interesting and charming and better as a love interest/character herself in every way?! That's probably why many adaptations try to give MJ traits to Gwen; to even the two out so MJ doesn't overshadow Gwen completely, even if we as the audience already know the fates of each lover. Idk, leaving Gwen out feels wrong; her death maybe the most important thing about her but I feel its up to future creators to try and remedy that fact, make Gwen as good as she was always intended to be!
That’s fair enough. I’d like to add that I feel the same way however, the impact of her death becomes less the more it happens. I’d like it to be explored differently or other characters teach Peter that lesson
I was thinking about mentioning spider gwen while i was watching the video, but you already did it.
I definitely think spider gwen will become the more popular version of the character in the future! But we can't give up on regular gwen. You said yourself that spectacular spider-man deals with Gwen really well.
You need to make a video of comic MJ.
How she is the best girl ever.
To show that you need to look at pre-OMD, because the only thing after that is Spencer's run that even shows a glimpse of what she was like before the retcon of Peter and MJ's marriage. I would be happy to recommend Parallel Lives as well as Conway, Michelinie, DeMatteis runs Spider-Man runs in the 80s/90s and JMS in the 00s for peak MJ.
@@XwoooahX yeah man. She's just great and supportive. I hating how Zeb is ruined her in current run. I wish another writer recover her or this shit current run is retcon somehow.
It really is a shame that we never got to see what the plan was for Gwen Stacey in Spectacular Spider-Man. Apparently the creators have gone into some detail about what their general outline was, and according to them they planned 5 seasons that would contain Peter's high-school years, followed by several movies that would follow Peter in his college years. These movies would then end with Peter getting married to Mary Jane.
So we know the Peter and Gwen relationship was never intended to work out, but what we don't know is how exactly it would end up failing. Would Gwen inevitably be killed off in the college years movies? Or, would she be kept alive, only to have her and Peter remain star-crossed lovers, with their relationship never really coming together until Peter just eventually moved on, and found happiness with Mary Jane? I have to say, if the intent was to kill Gwen off in the college years movies, that might very well have ended up being the most heartbreaking Death of Gwen Stacey story ever seen in media, because they really went out of their way to make her super likable in that adaptation.
I think I've heard one of the creators say that Mary Jane would be the one to support Peter after a "great loss" in the following seasons/movies...
So yeah, we can assume they would've adapted her death and it would be heartbreaking... The only bright thing about the series cancellation is that we can kinda write our own headcanons for the following events. Well, except for Captain Stacy's death which was basically confirmed by Across The Spider-Verse...
Isn’t it weird, that Gwen Stacy (a character who’s just the bland girl next door type) acts like an emotional but confident girl, whereas Mary Jane Watson (a girl who’s emotional, and also confident) acts like a bland girl next door type?
What are you talking about, if Reimi's Mj is perfect in the comics, a b##### who only used men like Harry to get Peter's attention, she doesn't stand out in intelligence, in anything, other than being "pretty" "
Gwen Stacy never really worked as a character; at least not an 'evolving one'.
OG616Gwen is absolutely crucial to Peters psych as a person though, in the same way uncle ben formed his moral centre. To be fair, Marvel didn't really give her that much time as they killed her off before they could really do anything interesting with her, so the comparison to MJ is a little ridiculous. MJ & Peter have had so much more time to develop, you might as well compare an amateur basketball player to a seasoned NBA star.
I don't believe anyone who reads comics would ever say she's a better fit for Pete than MJ, but her influence over both their lives galvanised them to become the people they are to each other, today (excluding Joe Quesada and the travesty he imposed on the spidey canon). Peter & MJ matured together because of Gwen. They're better people as a result of her, and they have her to thank for becoming the people they needed to be in order to find comfort & acceptance & love in each other.
It is said that the greatest currency you can have is the impact you leave on others. If that is true, then Gwen is the gold standard.
I'm actually cool with Spider-Gwen, but you are correct, 616's Gwen's death is quite similar to Uncle Ben's conclusive end, that pushed Peter to grow from his lowest point and MJ helping him at his lowest, understanding his pain, Harry suffered as a result of Peter's pain and lost his father and eventually become the Green Goblin as a means to get revenge on Peter and get Mary Jane back, but his actions and his fate with the Goblin serum took his life. Gwen's sins past issue was bad, but it shows Gwen wasn't always perfect either and that Norman is a evil individual deep down. That's how I see it.
I still think Gwen Stacy is the overall best love interest for Peter. In Carl Potts Punishing Spider, Mary Jane Watson seemingly doesn't exist, and Peter stops all of his antagonists and actually kills Norman Osborn and saves Gwen Stacy from her fall and they go on to get married. So, this is a way for Peter to have it all.
I’d still love to see some more fan-service post-NWH. Where Emma Stone’s Spider-Gwen walks into a portal, to the TASM universe. Her Spidey-Sense leads her to meet Andrew Garfield’s Spider-Man. Similar to how Gwen met Miles in the Spider-Verse films. Of course Peter is feeling *beyond* shock & glee to see her again… But…Gwen has *no idea* who he is. They get to know each other all over again from there.
This, this is why CZcams commenters should never be given the chance to write a movie
@@orphanobliterater7027 By your logic, whoever wrote the Spider-Verse films or No Way Home, should never be given the chance to write again. You realize all three of those films include plot points of portals being used & Spider-People being in the wrong universe…right? And people *LOVE* them. They’re some of the best-selling films, and for a goddamn good reason.
@@ThorntonNoirpretty sure they’re not referring to the multiverse aspect but the “bringing gwen back into the Tasm universe”. Because objectively that’s a terrible idea
@@MrPringle I mentioned “fan-service” for a reason. It doesn’t have to be canon. Marvel loves money. People *love* crossovers. Even if they make zero sense. So, “objectively” it’s *guaranteed* to sell well.
Even the crossover films that fans deem the “worst”, plot/writing wise, make *bank.* BvS made $800M+ on a $200M Budget. NWH made $1.9B on a $200M Budget…. 🤷♂️
@@ThorntonNoir selling well ≠ good movie and that was what the original reply was trying to say.
While I do agree that a traditional Gwen is effectively "born to die," I think you're sevearly underestimating the impact that can have on a story. Saying that knowing a character is eventually gonna die ruins the story of that charcter is like saying that rewatching/reading any story becomes pointless because we know who's gonna die. If a story is written well, it shouldn't matter whether or not we know who's gonna die. Think about how much dramatic irony and tension could be created in story with a character who we (as the audience) know is gonna die (like Romeo and Juliet). More recently, this concept is even being used in Final Fantasy VII: Remake; Aerith's death is one of the most well know charcter deaths in video game history, so Remake is giving us all this extra time to spend with her and sprinkling in ominus foreshadowing to an inevitably painful end. The story is not only "not ruined" because we know Aerith will die, but activly enhanced. I understanding that Gwen's entire charcter shouldn't be her death, but to say that her death doesn't work anymore is a really flawed take in my opinion.
As predictable as Gwen's death is, I think the worse option is using her but NOT killing her off. In dying, Gwen's character has has been granted a unique role in Peter's development, and letting her live and have a happy ending gets rid of this uniqueness as well as the actual reason the franchise needs her.
Absolutely agree
If the traditional, in-comics version of Green Stacy is so uninteresting and limited, then movies SHOULD be abandoning that history and replacing it with something more interesting. It’s a good thing that Gwen Stacy adaptations aren’t very comics accurate, because the comics were bad in regards to Gwen’s character.
I prefer the Gwen Stacy from the comics, not spider Gwen from another dimension. And yes I feel like Gwen should have more to her character, like the backstory of Mj but not in the same way obvious. Like how she loss her mother, or almost lost her father?
Gwen in the amazing Spider-Man films was amazing because of Emma Stone. Emma was great in that role and had great chemistry with Andrew. She’s the comic adaptation with the personality of MJ. And she did it better than both Kirsten Dunst and Zendeya
Yeah more on Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man 3, Greg Weisman the producer of the Spectacular Spider-Man called out Raimi on those movies in an interview for turning his Gwen into MJ and his MJ into Gwen. The Raimi movies did a real disservice to MJ's character by not actually adapting Mary Jane. XD
So he thinks the Raimi trilogy is overrated
@@srstriker6420 No, he just correctly sees MJ in the Raimi films as not a good adaptation of her comic counterpart. That says nothing about the quality of the movies. They can be great movies even if the characters are not accurately portrayed. Hell MCU is very well received and those adaptations are even worse.
@@XwoooahX well I did see this video called Raimi doesn’t get Spider-Man 2 and I’m not making this up
1:27 there’s more to her than just her death. Look at spider-Gwen and god forbid the infamous run when Norman impregnated her and she gave birth to twins and the twins were told to take down spider-man
I mean that’s literally what I talk about in the video! SpiderGwen is the exception to this!
Gwen in the ultimate 2000 comics was quite unique
I think that the way they can pull off Gwen in Insomniac universe is to introduce her as a science wiz in Miles' university, and then subvert our expectations by having Miles save her from the Goblin when Peter couldn't. Then later, she could get bitten by a radioactive spider and decide to move out of the city to become her own Spider-Woman.
bro really wants miles and gwen to be a thing, gwen isn't gonna be aged down for miles if she exists in the same universe as peter, who is much older than miles lol
@@BaconManGaming101 You never know.
@@BaconManGaming101 And who says she has to have any history with Peter?
@@kjdee140 ok you're weird then
@@BaconManGaming101 To each his own.
I disagree Gwen can work well it just kinda needs actual understand who Gwen is as a character and I think something that would be interesting is if in Sam raimis universe it’s Mary Jane that gets the Gwen treatment instead of actually Gwen I think that would be interested
Yeah that did happen with peter and mj years ago....But then paul happened
Wait u telling me rami was planning to kill off mj
Furthermore i dont know the full initial plot for spectacular because it got cancelled because of Disney, for all we know she couldve ended up with peter at the end
Me: What, you don't like Spider Gwen?!
This vid: She's a Gwen Stacy who's actually awesome, making her a completely different character
Me: Whew
What do you think about gwen warren from comic 616 or house of m gwen or heroes reborn nightgwen who i think was a reworked 616 gwen not a reworked 65 gwen?
I think the next mcu spider man trilogy should have gwen as the main love interest ( and not kill her)
If he didn’t get back with mj why would he get with Gwen?
Marvel milking, Gwen, Stacy till the cow dies
As always
I'm crying for the first 7 seconds 😂😂😂😂
I still want to see Spider-Gwen end up with Peter in the future (Not in the spider-verse movie) It doesn't matter how many guys/girls pass them both they dont make me feel like I feel when Gwen with Peter but sadly canon even bullsh-t took in i hope in the next movie mile can break canon even and end up with Gwen(only the main in movie) and hope gwen and peter in another verse have a good end
i Love this channel so much
2:12 kinda like Mary Jane
Honestly, though a good writer can make any character interesting and Gerry Conway is a HUGE MJ fan. He had a chance to delve into Gwen’s character more but simply chose to kill her off which is lazy in my opinion. I especially find it annoying how even Ultimate Gwen that wasn’t romantically interested in Peter still died though she did come back via clone shenanigans.
You can't be serious? you're going to call Gwen Stacy boring? The woman who defended Peter from jerks and yelled at Aunt May for her obnoxious smothering, not to mention she stood up against Kingpin. You're going to call her boring? Also no the moments between Peter and Gwen had a lot of depth and they were very nice together. Aunt May should have been the one they killed off not Gwen.
I agree with the video about Gwen, with her death being the only interesting thing about her. I do also see the Spider-Gwen version becoming the most popular version of her but I think Marvel doesn't know what to do with her character. You could do something with her but it involve adding and taking away traits. Look at Spectacular Spider-Man, as you mention they gave her a Mary Jane trait but took away the beauty trait she had. She was pretty much the ugly ducking but could be beautiful like Liz or MJ. Still main trait to take away is the death but if you do that then what would MJ's purpose be in the story. With the announcement of Ultimate Spider-Man we may see her again. They could a couple of things with her.
1. Kill her like the rest
2. She doesn't exist in the Ultimate Universe
3. She is older than Peter so no love interest
4. She is younger than Peter so no love interest
5. She lives but what do you do with MJ
6. You make her a B**ch
And what's so crazy is when they do try to add more nuance to the original Gwen like they did with sense past sins remembered the fans was like no Gwen is perfect she can't do nothing like that she would never do anything like that really because we only know Gwen from Peter's perspective when he met her in college So we don't know what she really is because like you said she was made to be the perfect girlfriend but when they do try to add flaws to the original Gwen Stacy most fans rejected and I think that's a major problem is we keep rejecting the nuance that they try to add to Gwen original nuances with Gwen Stacy because there has been stories where they try to go in more depth with the original win and fans rejected because for some reason they just can't believe that Gwen Stacy isn't perfect or something like that and that's a major problem but I am getting tired of seeing Wednesday see being adapted as a knockoff Mary Jane Watson it's just like no if that's the case just bring in Mary Jane Watson every time I watching an adaptation of Gwen Stacy outside of stupid spider Gwen I am reminded of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson and Mary Jane Watson and how I want Peter and Mary Jane to be together and how much I prefer Mary Jane over when Stacy and it's not Gwen's fault it's the fact that Mary Jane like is a more complex nuanced character if they want to do something with Gwen Stacy see like I said let the creators add the nuance that they had for the character where she wasn't as perfect as Peter thoughts she was into older men she had a secret affair You know what I'm saying You can get mad all you want to but I prefer that because it's adding a little bit more nuance on Gwen then just her being Spider-Man's perfect girlfriend that we know is going to die.
Know what you mean but I liked the amzaing version and don't liked it when they killed her of.
Sometimes I think comic should be comic and movie should be movie (with own intersting ideas or inspired by each other).
I feel Gwen Stacy deserves better.
More proof Ned is the best Spider-Man love interest
Steve Ditko created Gwen. Not Stan.
While I wouldn't change the death of Gwen Stacy, I definitely agree that she should have more to do before hand
I think if Gwen gets i todruced in Insomniacs spider man she A eather becomes Miles big spider man death by the Goblin or she is ...idk
I'll also be joining the membership once I start getting so more money. I'm broke, lol.
I'm sick and tired of Spider-gwen and people want her everywhere.
GWEN STACY LOVES THAT BLACK!!!!!!! She will give Miles Morales lots of black children. 😊
It’s never been just about Gwen’s death, it was about how much Peter loved her, and as a reader at the time, so did we. When she died we all felt it, yes MJ was there to pick up the pieces but we never really got over how much we loved the character in much the same way Peter did. Her life meant more to us then her death. I guess you had to be there.
It's stuff like this that makes me wish I had grown up reading comicbooks, all my knowledge comes from TV, movies, and video games, so I didn't know anything about Gwen Stacy until much later, my introduction to Spider-man, Batman, Superman, and superheroes in general came from cartoons, specifically the 90s cartoons, and because of that I can't identify with comics, but that's not to say I don't have any attachment to the character, granted I did not have the best introduction to her, that being the worst Spider-Man movie ever, Spider-Man 3, but since then I have come to love the character.
Well who else do you think doesn’t work anymore in Spider-Man or other places because I could think of a few like 7:17 do you know who else feels like the same person Harry Osborn and Eddie Brock
Uhh yeah she does
I think the MCU Spider-Man should make Gwen Stacy his permanent love interest and have the MJ memory wipe thing act as his “loss of a loved one” instead
Don’t think that’s a good idea. The reason Peter didn’t go back with mj in nwh is because he doesn’t want his loved ones to be in danger. So why would he find another love interest and put them in danger?
@@NonyaBusiness-de4qg well you would obviously start the movie off with Peter not trusting himself, have him closed off from any and all connections. This clearly takes a physical and emotional toll on him. But there’s just something different about Gwen, about Harry, about Felicia, about Miles, about the new friends he’s going to make. His character arc will have to be about him finding ways to trust himself again so he can make a new family, so he can be happy again once and for all.
@@davidherasme5780 I can understand felicia because she’s black cat but why not just do that same character arc with mj and Ned? I just don’t think that makes sense
@@NonyaBusiness-de4qg because MJ and Ned will be in Boston, Peter is too broke to travel all those miles from NYC just for the purpose of saying “hey remember me?” and it very likely not working, just being a waste of money
@@NonyaBusiness-de4qg I also just think that him having a character arc like the one I previously mentioned does a better job at moving his character forward than undoing the ending of No Way Home
If anything, with the terrible Zeb Wells, run and Peter and Felicia breaking up in "AsM #31", maybe Spider-Gwen should be Peter Parker's new Girlfriend. Oh wait, she's Miles Morales's girlfriend/wife. What garbage. We date between the multiverse now? That must be an easier commute than going from Manhattan to Long Island, LOL!
Gwen Stacy's death in "ASM # 121" was over 50 years ago. Time and time again Marvel has brought her back as a clone or in the recent run to judge if Peter is worth keeping alive when the entity was judging if Earth is worth saving or some trash story arc. Everything is an event at Marvel these days. Maybe Lewisfilm's prediction of Spider-Gwen becoming more popular 10 to 15 years from now might be correct, but how do you know Marvel is going to exist 15 years from now>? The Company isn't making money. They hire talentless hacks to write storylines like Zeb Wells (and DC with Trini Howard).
I disagree. At some point, Spider-Gwen will become an obscure character who will not be in the Miles Morales storyline, or will die as implied in "Spider-Man Across the Spiderverse". The main flaw with the Miles Morales Spiderverse movies is Peter Parker/Spider-Man from Earth 616 is conspicuously absent from the story arc. Why? Miles Morales can't compare to the original Spider-Man. If you like "Elseworlds" or characters from different universes, that's fine, but that's not the main canon. Yes, Miles Morales is in Earth 616's universe now, but he's no Peter Parker and can't compare to him. Just like Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Woman, Marvel will continue to try and push Miles Morales in Marvel comics, and more than likely, his book will be successful for 25 to 50 issues, then they'll have to reboot his comic again because of low sales. Heck, they're doing that with ASM because Marvel and DC are failing and can't compete with Manga.
You know spider-Gwen is her own character and miles and her were really only a thing in the movies right? Also spider-Gwen is much younger than 616 peter
@@ascendedsavage7040 Thanks for the information and clarification. Unfortunately, I don't follow all the Marvel Multiverse. Supposedly Miles Morales is now in Earth-616 and Peter Parker/Spider-Man from Earth-616 isn't in the "Spiderverse" movies. On Earth-8, the possible future of Earth-65, Miles Morales marries Gwen Stacy of another world and she's supposedly Spider-Gwen of that universe and they become celebrities and possibly have a child. Like I said, I don't follow all the Spiderverse alternate universes and in the Spiderverse Franchise Films, the version of Spider-Gwen is from Earth -65. She might be from Earth 1610B. I only saw the 1st movie, so I don't know if it was clarified what alternate Earth she's from.
Older men date younger women, and vice versa, so anything is possible, even Spider-Gwen dating Peter Parker/Spider-Man. In the animated series "Marvel Spider-Man" Gwen Stacy is his classmate who gets spider powers, even though Spider-Man is still interested in Mary Jane Watson. Depending on which Spiderverse alternate Earth version of Gwen Stacy you like, that's your prerogative and that's fine. I'm in my 60's and the Gwen Stacy I identified with died in "ASM # 121" 50 years ago when I was 11. So it's cool who you like, but, I'm more of a traditional Spider-Man fan who would like to see SpiderCat together. If you can see the movie, check out "Spider-Man Lotus". It's interesting putting together "Spider-Mana Blue", "ASM # 120 through # 125", and "ASM # 248". If you see the movie, you'll have to decide if you like it or not. It's a subjective taste for this movie.
@@edg4441 don't worry about earth 8 lol that whole story isn't canon
@@BaconManGaming101 Thanks for the comment. I agree. I know it's not canon and I'm not interested or care about the Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen romance. I was replying to a comment.
@@edg4441 yeah personally I hated that shit
I don't like spider gwen Stacy anymore, plus her spiderverse movie design sucks for me, why only 1 sided hair
Regular Gwen Stacy is better
Maybe i should say design wise (spectacular spiderman still has a good gwen stacy cus thats just an overall great show)
She keeps the Spider-Verse hair because of Miles. She got the haircut when she first met Miles so its kinda romantic.
@@jeppyjep I don't care... Both sides hair looked better
@@blametheghost Spider-Verse Gwen is one of the best portrayals for Gwen Stacy since Spectacular's Gwen. I loved the way they written her in the sequel.
@@Mr.Martin1996 yea she is, but her hair.... It's just the hair
She looks like a disaster lesbian in those movies, which I really hate. I don't care about the "romance" she looks dumb
I think they should just keep doing what they've been doing since the original comics shes the high school and wether she dies or not peter should get with mj in the end and i wouldn't say peter was imporfect in EVERY single way i mean hes a cool guy mainly after getting his powers but still even before
In the Lee/Ditko ere, she was intruduce in the begin of Peter college years, not high school.
@@fralambert8377 yeah she was a bit of jerk towards Peter when he first arrived
I guess LewisFilms is a Disney hater now.
CAUSE SHE’S SUPPOSED TO STAY DEAD
Gwen > MJ. I’m sorry it’s just true.
No
@@MrPringle absolutely true
@@Conslappy not at all Mj>>>>> gwen
@@MrPringle factually incorrect. Gwen never cheated on Peter “willingly” if you want to count that terrible arc
@@Conslappy I’m not gonna count the arc because it got retconned but even if it wasn’t retconned it was consensual. And if you think being trapped in a post apocalyptic world with only one other person for 4 years with no hope of getting home and 2 kids (magically linked to you) is consensual then idk what to tell you
Hard disagree. MJ is the character that doesnt work anymore. She doesnt contribute anything to peter's life.
How so? I feel like Gwen’a character has such a predictable ending. And anything to deviate from that ending results in the character pulling traits associated with MaryJane.
@@LewisFilmsProductions Mj is the mMOST stale character in spiderman comics. She has nothing to offer to peter. Gwen's death holds a big significance in peter's life. Mj is just an accessory in spiderman comics.
@@ravenouspuncher I have to disagree. The point I make in the video is that there’s nothing more to Gwen than her death. MJ however has so much more substance. I agree Gwens death is significant, but it’s been done to death (no pun intended 😂)
@@LewisFilmsProductions Even if you remove her death, gwen's character is much ore than damsel in distress mj. At least gwen has variations like spider gwen but mj remains the same old character
@@ravenouspuncherI disagree. I think you’re thinking more about Raimi MJ, which is a damsel, but In the many comics she’s more of an independent party girl with a traumatic past
Gwen is Atom Eve
Mary Jane Watson is Amber
No...i mean..no😂
No, Gwen is Amber.
MJ is Atom Eve.
@@mayotango1317 yes but still no I agree with you mj is the end game for peter always will be but nether are that stupid Amber in the show is so dumb
@@mayotango1317 is this when Gwen first appeared in the comics where she gives Peter cold shoulder?
Other way around
MJ has always seemed overrated to me lmao, I would say that she is with Peter not because she is a good woman, but because she is one of those flirtatious women, half a b#### who attracts reading men's attention due to fetishes, apart from that she seems to me a boring character and that She doesn't let Spiderman advance, they should kill her, not counting Paul, of course.
Because honestly, as a girlfriend, it never seemed like a big deal to me, there are countless women in Peter's history who are much better than her in every way, but the role is taken away so that the redhead is the star, she's not a good character, she's just it's status quo.
Most look down on Gwen for the bad writing she was given, especially for being Peter's love interest in the 1960s due to the stereotype of the hero's girlfriend and her barely 18 years of age before she died, but to this day I still think that a more developed Gwen would be much more useful to Spiderman than MJ, at least in the scientific or detective field. MJ, on the other hand, people always give the same argument as to why she is Spiderman's best girlfriend is simply: she's a party girl, she's flirtatious, it doesn't happen from there.
Most of Peter's girlfriends including Black Cat, Silk and Gwen are wasted characters, I also find it absurd that they compare Gwen with MJ in comics stories, when Gwen didn't have time to develop, she is an 18-year-old deceased and never had the opportunity to know that Peter was spiderman, MJ is already an old woman, she does not have great intellectual, technical or combat skills, there is nothing to talk about her anymore, her durability as a character ended a long time ago, that's why she seems like a character to me boring, black cat and silk is another example of a wasted character based on MJ's status-quo.
It’s funny because marvel has literally come out and said the reason they got rid of mj and their marriage was because it grew peter up too much. Most of peter’s biggest steps in has been because/with Mj, so saying she doesn’t let him advance is ironic. Mj is arguably the most important/impactful person in Spider-Man.
Mj was always liked more than gwen so saying “gwen didn’t have enough time to develop” when Mj was in the same boat is kinda weird. Peter has stated that Mj’s his preferred partner because she knows how to handle her self and best equipped to adapt to his lifestyle. Mj trained with captain America when they lived with the avengers and one of the most resourceful civilians in comics (she even has powers now). It seems like the comment lacks a basic understanding of the character
@@Lagoon-gl7wy Did they take away their marriage? What is that special about her, the same would happen with any woman, for Marvel to have children and marriage is to grow a lot, so there is nothing special in her argument.
I understand that you are a MJ fanboy, but these comics are called spiderman, not MJ, MJ is a character that if she is useless, she should not get in the way, and MJ is not useful for spiderman at all, she has no abilities of any kind other than acting, and that. How is it useful for spiderman? 0
Training with Captain America? HAHAHA. Now that we tell her Black widow? Black cat? Nooo, she can train with whoever she is but she's still a normal human, she's not useful to Peter no matter who it hurts and I wasn't referring exclusively to Gwen, who by the way, as I said, in her well-developed condition would be more helpful in every way than MJ, I also meant FELICIA O SIlK MJ
help Peter? Since I can remember it has been decades and she is not capable of doing anything so that Peter stops having the mentality of a child and stops being a poor man who has to pay rent or eat. That's how useless it is.
Are you talking about powers? That doesn't count, because that's very recently, which makes me right in what I said, as a character she was finished a long time ago to the point that Marvel no longer knew what to do with her and came up with this invention that now she has super powers.
PD: MJ x Paul lol
@@Lagoon-gl7wy The only thing special about MJ is that it satisfies the fetishes of readers who like to see a woman who acts like a flirtatious and rebellious b*****, nothing more.
PD: MJ x Paul lol
@@spartanjohn-1176
Yes marvel took away their 20+ year long marriage. You have a very weird way of viewing relationships, if you had to choose between Batman who’ve you’ve been friends with for a week or you mom (assume you have a good relationship with her) which one would you choose? You’d obviously choose you mom because there’s more to forming relationships then just material things.
You understand that the side cast of characters are probably the most important thing in a story right? (Especially someone who’s been your partner for over 20 years) abilities other than acting? Her acting allows her to read ppl better than anyone else, helps her go undercover and manipulate ppl(just went undercover as black cat recently), and a line they beat us over the head with constantly that she knows how to improvise(again peter stated she’s his preferred partner because she knows how to handle herself when needed and can adapt to his lifestyle the easiest)
Mj has helped him through so many mental breakdowns, helped him in multiple fights(like shooting the green goblin when he was getting overpowered or throw a Molotov on the hob-goblin) Pete’s been his most developed with Mj, happiest moments being because of Mj, and Mj has supported him through 95% of his hardest moments.
Silk barely liked peter they were just f*ck buddies(pheromone thing got retconned) and black cat has proven multiple times that’s she’s not compatible with Peter. Even if you don’t want to count her recent powers(which is incredibly disingenuous) her during the spider island event, her with the iron spider suit, her as spinneret are a few more example I could use unless you wanna continue to be disingenuous
Also Gwen x Norman Felicia x foreigner
@@Lagoon-gl7wy mary jane is trash for peter and you know it, you only want her because you're an old man who's used to her for decades, not because she's a good character for spiderman.
If you were a true Spiderman fan you wouldn't want to or you would be angry because a cheating girl is not in a relationship with Peter, you are not a spiderman fan, you are in love with MJ, it shows that you would forgive an infidel in real life.
You just like to satisfy your fetishes with a flirtatious party woman from comics, woman who never You would look for it in real life, no matter how much it hurts, MJ doesn't contribute anything to the plot and the day Marvel kills her, that day the spiderman comics will return to glory, I don't even know why I'm discussing a character she put on it cuckold peter🥱
She would have never been killed......I ruined everything for me.I was 14 at the time and it was never the same for me.