After playing for 6 years here is the best advice I can offer you. 1) Don't expect to remember it the first time. Don't expect to remember it the first 10 times. Repetition is how you will get the rules down and start to build an understanding of what you are expecting to do in the game. 2) Bring notes. If you are trying to execute a wombo combo that you know how it works, but aren't totally sure if you can remember all the pieces to it bring some notes. These can be flash cards, pieces of paper, a print out of the strategems highlighted so on and so forth. 3) Communicate at your speed. This is a big one. Communicate at the speed that you know both you and your opponent can make sense of what you are trying to say. The more time you get in with the game, the faster you will communicate. Don't be afraid to take your time and talk things out so you can keep track of what is happening. 4) Communicate everything. I mean EVERYTHING. Number of attacks, what they hit on, modifiers, how many hits , rerolls, why you are rerolling, strength of attacks, what you are wounding on, modifiers to wound, rerolls, why you are rerolling, AP, saves, modifiers to save, etc. Doing this isn't just excellent communication for your opponent, it makes sure you still know what is going on because you are going to be saying this every single time you do anything. It lets your brain follow along with the sequence of events. Hope this helps anybody who reads this and if you read the entire thing: have an awesome day. You deserve it.
It is so incredibly important to communicate and be ready to explain what you are doing. I played a guy that was bad at explaining things, and for other reasons I knew that he really wanted to win, despite not knowing the rules that well - this led to several times where he said he could reroll a bad roll, or got a free stratagem, but he didn’t explain where he got it from until I asked him several times to show me the rule on a data card or something so that I could read it for myself: most of the time it was completely fine, he did it as the rule stated, but he also got it wrong a couple of times as well (one time to his own detriment unless I had asked about it)
Been playing for two years, and after spending two years trying to learn the rules, I've found out it's easiest way to to just pick up a random amount of dice, point at random models, mumble some keywords, and pray my opponent doesn't notice. Hope this helps! 👍
rarely hear people talk about this but i find just setting my models up at home and running a few test scenarios can really help clear things up or at least give a better understanding for how models work
The Empyric guidance does affect the sorcerer himself, he is one of the models in the unit and from deployment they are all treated as one unit. So he gives himself lethal hits but only when he is in a unit, not if deployed alone Hang in there Paul
This sort of example is exactly why I say 10th is more complicated than 9th (which I never found that complicated to play anyway, so if someone who found 9th easy to play is finding 10th a slog then something definitely went wrong) 9th just had a lot of Stuff, but Stuff between armies or units was usually pretty uniform. Now everything in 10th needs to be its own unique thing so there is no consistency across an army or across its units anymore. I played a comp practice game vs GK last week and we both wondered why Razorbacks had twin-linked lascannons, but Land Raiders have 4 individual lascannons, despite both of them having physically and visually the same weapons. In 9th Tsons just cast a lot of powers, most of which were smite. It wasn't that difficult to understand what they were doing especially as it was all done in one phase. And yet now they have their own special brand of esoteric bullshit spread across multiple phases that isn't like anything else and follows all its own weird rules and exceptions, plus you have 5 different characters all with the same named ranged Psychic Attack that all have different statlines to that attack, in fact an Aspiring Sorc on foot and disc even has a different attack statline for that one psychic weapon despite JUST BEING THE SAME UNIT. Nids are also an army where this is an absurdity; does a tyranid monster with 4-6 arms with identical weapons get Twin-Linked or not? Well, the answer is that it depends on the unit for completely arbitrary reasons.
Agree with all you've said. Our group played lots of 10th when it came out and all of us think 9th was better. Currently we're beta testing the game instead of playing with the full system and after I saw the precentages of army win rates I just gave up that I will play games like 9th ed again, at least for a year. GW said units would be harder to kill so I thought that positioning would be the most important factor for winning games however the only change we got was tanks got tougher with better armor saves. Honestly tanks did need such a change, it would be more impactful if the strength of anti tank weapons was kept a bit lower so the vehicle/monster toughness change only matters if you're attacking them with your all rounder units becuase they have no other target. I've played a game with my eldar(I apologize for comitting heresy) vs my friends dark angels. I wiped out his army on turn 3 I never did such a thing in 9th ed even if I played very weird csm all in combo damage no objective minded lists. A single d-cannon took 9 wounds off the Lion, I rolled 6 for the D3 all my 3 shots hit and I wounded on 2+ because of Eldad so yeah all of them hit and he failed his inv saves so I just picked a 2 from my fate pool and made it a 6 with a farseer for damage then rolled a 6 and a 2(also Lion had -2 damage so my 2 6's were 4 and the 2 was 1. The D-cannon was my first in line to shoot Lion I had a unit of fire dragons, 2 falcons and a Night spinner to shoot as well. I know that example isn't applicable for the entire system but I had very similar experiences in the system like my Angron dying to 2 ravagers and returning the next turn and me proceeding to roll 3 6's every time( why can you bring a fucking primarch back if you just get lucky??) or you just roll very good with a sustained hits unit. The system feels very lopsided because of some armies being able to make lists with better combos and buffs than yours and this is coming from someone who played with 30 noise marines with full reroll hits and wounds and decimator soulburners with iron warrior buffs with that horrid 8th edition chaos book ( it was fun and very unbalanced ) The last 3 months of 9th edition when everybody got their codex and was able to make lists that functioned unique from any other army so match ups were very important to think about and you could win games agaisnt your worst match up if you had an unconventional list ( best example mordian glory with his weird af guard/tau lists ). That was the best time for 40k even better than the index times. I won't comment for 7th or previous editions I don't know anything about them and heard lots of people say 7th was just shit so whatever bro
I'm yet to play with my Thousand Sons in 10th, but glad I know what I have to look forward to. Plus a neat tip make it easier for me and especially my opponent.
Just to try and help slightly, at 2:50 the Sorcerer in Terminator armor does actually benefit from his own Empryic Guidence buff, the reason is while he is leading a unit, models in that unit get lethal hits, and while he is leading that unit, he is a model in that unit so he does get the effects from the buff as well
Honestly. . . As much as I'd love to write another novel long comment on how to learn, manage and mitigate rules complexity. . . I got very little this time. All I did when I started playing was use an innately simpler army. Otherwise. . . I also watched alot of Battle Reports, but that helped me learn how to play other people's armies more than it helped me learn my own. Everything else just came more or less naturally to me until my brain became a small encyclopedia of rules knowledge.
Cut to me in a similar but just as awkward problem, my Thousand Sons player friend Went through this entire shebang against my lychguard, albeit a little easier because he just had to focus on one unit. I've got a Lord w/Orb to reanimate in his command phase and -1 to wound from a noble in the lychguard block, Technomancer with Ablator for -1 to hit with range and 5+++, a Reanimator and Spyder behind them for an extra d3 to reanimate and a 4+++ against psychic damage, cryptothralls for more bodies and a 4+++ stopgap before you actually start killing the Lychguard. After all was said and done, he killed 5 models (2 cryptothralls and 3 lychguard) and I got 3 back with the Undying Legion stratagem which is d3+1 wounds back but ot triggers reanimation so it was actually 2d3+1. Then I got topped back up at the beginning of my turn because he failed the charge. It was a solid 20-25 minutes of awkward numbers counting and awkward rules clarification.
I play Imperial Knight, and 10th is my first time playing warhammer. So i wrote everything down and laminated my stat cards to write on them for weapons and stats. I feel like every time I play is like a quiz to I remember EVERYTHING. And I don't, but after games, I try to write down "what did I learn this game to improve on the next"
I had this problem playing T'au in 9th, what with a Crisis Bomb with 4 different weapons and whatnot. I took old Magic cards (playing cards work well too) and wrote down all the weapons and their statlines on them (for Rapid Fire weapons, flip the card 180 degrees for them) and physically laid them out in piles for each set of attacks before rolling anything. That way I'm not using dice (and therefore possibly forgetting what they are for) and I'm clearly communicating what attacks are going where.
The sentiment that you should bring notes helped me immensely. When I switched to Ynnari in 9e, there was an entire backlog of eldar multi-unit combos spread across psychic powers, stratagems, and unit abilities. I did not execute a single one well or quickly until I wrote down the "effectively, do this:" notes for the unit groups. Almost like an algorithm for that specific combo group. "Move scorpions, then move buff farseer within 12" of them and warlocks within 18" of high priority target, and scorpions use this strat for 1CP for -1 to hit and..." It accelerates the mental process that you're building intuition for by preventing you from forgetting, and it's simple to take a sticky note and amend it on the fly.
1. Split firing is often dangerous, even though it's not "efficient", ensuring somethign dies is better than leaving 3 models at 1 wounds because I was playing the odds and either I rolled under average or my opponent rolled over average. I've killed vehicles the last wound on vehicles with storm bolter shots and my anti tank weapons have destroyed the last model on an objective. 2. Tell the general rule of how you'll split, and fire all the dudes firing in one model at once, then do the remaining, if it's hard to rmeember, mark which model has fired. 3. when rolling, say what matters. ie: rolling to hit on 3s, 6 matters or 5 matters. then remove the dice that matters from the pool and resolve them by themselves ie: so these 6s are sustaining, so imma add some dice to that wound roll or they are lethal hits, so they wound.
Great video can’t wait for my first game of thousand sons this weekend now!!! also please correct me if I’m wrong but I’m basically certain the leader buff is also given to any leader, although it says that unit, the leader is part of the unit they’re all classified as one unit until all the bodyguards are dead
This is something I'm still confused about. Because it is leading a unit and it gives its buff to "that" unit, I don't think it is given to him. However, the unit he is leading does give their buff to the leader because it says "this" unit of which the leader is part of. But I might be wrong on this it's very confusing. One of the less clear aspects of the rules because of the differential between this and that
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff standard GW writing, don't feel guilty. But yes, FloopLoop is correct, leaders become part of the unit they lead and thus benefit from their own buff
I would suggest , that you write down certain combos with All buffs attached, so See what you got, and dont need to remember All stuff, or make little paper sheets with "+1 wound" or "leathal hits" and lay them as Token next to your units
all the games i have played so far were against a friend who was adamant about certain core rules like saving throws which later turnoud out to be wrong. so i havent even gotten a game where the basic rules were being followed. but tbf the games were a lot of fun just by the sheer amount of dice we sometimes rolled
I've played in 10th against Marines, Custodes, Tyrannids and Sisters of Battle as Orks and Genestealer cult (but only meme builds like 30 Purestrain Genestealer). In none of these matches did I ever saw that many layers of Buffs and Debuffs. But then again I played a lot against Thousand Sons in 9e and the psyker phase boiled down to me waiting 20 minutes for calculations and asking how much damage I take.
It wasnt as bad as this but i had a situation where i had Khorne Kasino buffs and stratagems on my master of executions who was charging a character. Got very tongue twisted explaining to my opponent all the buffs and rerolls.
Honestly, this is exactly what I want from my k sons, i get to build a crazy wombo combo that actually does something. Plus I'm incentivised to save CP for big plays instead of just rerolling and overwatching.
Depend as guard a lot of the times the units are just pure force of number of dices But other times betwen a lot of diferent profiles and diferent rules it takes time The funny ones where imo the ogryn bomb of 9 5 atacks of the ogryn +3 s6 fp -1 d1 1 extra of +3 s8 -2 d1 1 astropath atack of +4 f3 3 atacks of +3 f3 energy sword 2 atacks of +4 f3 energy sword 6 bayonet atacks it took always ages
I think T-sons are the exception to the rule Only real "combos" I've found after playing CSM, Death Guard and World Eaters is just simple "character + unit + maybe a strat" World Eaters have the most depth in this with the blessings I've found (it's almost like having an army rule that does something interesting helps) but even then it just boils down to advance and charge + movement or if I'm taking lots of damage 6++ feel no pain and fight on death
During a recent game of Age of Fantasy (OPR), I compared tabletop wargaming with banging rocks together. In OPR, you just bang the rocks together. In 40k, you are doing loops, dances and arcane rituals before the rock banging occurs. You may prefer either, but in the end, all we want to do is bang rocks together in a timely fashion.
Meanwhile AOS and Horus Heresy is out here with 90% of stratagems are universal stratagems so you only really need to remember 1 set for ***alll*** armies (and generally are just "+1 to hit.") Also can I suggest using tokens of some sort like counters with symbols painted on? Things like +1 to hit or buffs on a unit
I was under the impression that the leader of a unit falls under the umbrella term "models in that unit", otherwise wouldn't the text specify "the bodyguard unit"? Page 39, core rules: Leader rules "While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is known as an Attached unit and, with the exception of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed (pg 12), it is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes."
As far as I know the sorcerer in terminator armour does benefit from his own buff as he is part of the unit he is leading and would from the wording of his ability benefit from it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Full combo is 10 Combi bolters plus the Sorcerer in Terminators armour All within 12" equates 44 shots & Lethal Hits (from Sorcerer passive buff) 1 CP Ensorcelled Infusion so now they are S5 and Psyhic meaning the kindred sorcerey gives them either sustained hits 1 or devastating wounds If they are within 6 of Magnus add 1 to the hit and wound rolls 1 CP for Devastating Sorcery meaning reroll hit and wound rolls 9 Cabal points to use Twist of fate at the start of your shooting phase to remove all armour so sustained hits is better than Devastating wounds
if you want a good laugh look at the 8th/9th repulsor data sheet. multiple of the same weapons being swapped to different weapons on different pleases plus like 6 or so guns all with the same but slight different stats. also some weapons go from weapon A to weapon B. and then weapon C can change into weapon A
As an Ademch player, i would often place random trinkets near my units to signify which buffs they got Unfortunately i would sometimes forget what exactly did i put on them, but it was helpful
Me and my group talk so much during a match that it was an achievement to reach turn 2 last time so an interaction costing 15-20 minutes is the norm for me.
To be fair, your using thousand sons, who are a very crunchy complicated faction. Their pkaytyle IS layering buffs on for 15 minutes to achieve crazy combos. Playing World Eaters is almost like the opposite end of the spectrum. I have 2 buffs I get to choose and everyone in the army gets them. After that it's just data sheets. Most armies fall somewhere in the middle.
Tbf, I do think the best players do work that stuff out the way you did, though your solution is probably better for us casuals and for a number of reasons The best of the best can afford time to read every codex in the game several times over to gain insight into matchups and not be surprised by skew lists They also get in several games a week on either simulators or in local clubs; this gives them lots of experience against every faction and lets them build better synergies and battle plans They also spend lots of plans doing the math of certain combos against certain targets, giving them an even better idea on what the most efficient way to use actions is This pretty much means they can easily pull off very compmicated combos and with model by model being far slower, it's probably more efficient to use shortcuts by calculating for the whole squad Source: I asked a thousand sons GT player
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff checked the rules, it doesn't say anything specfically for this but it does say you have to roll for each weapon profiles at a time, maybe impliyng that weapons with the same profile roll all together and that you don't separate (sorry if bad english, not my main langage) for half range thingies. Not really sure but there isn't a GW spy looking if you're respecting the rules or not anyway, so wether you do model by model or by the unit, play however you want, this is only a silly table top game anyway
I have had no problems with 10th edition ... I simply don't play it! I am serious, I started playing Warhammer 40.000 at the start of 3rd edition, and back then it was simple, fast, and most importantly, FUN!
I play the better balanced smaller games, so this tends to be a lot less of a problem as you can't have all everything all at once (due to point limits)
Some armies have crazy complex stacking buffs creating super satisfying turns where you wipe out some big models and units in a single phase. Some armies have none of that.
Playing against Death Guard was upsetting. They had so few interactions vs the insanity of thousand sons and being able to delete everything with my combos
My my I do (seriously) love doing apparently pointless things, me giving them sense and purpose is all that it needs to be justified (which retroactively makes them not pointless). So don't worry, ye not alone 👊 Edit: plus, unless corrected by other gentlemen down here, I could swear a Character joining a unit makes it part of that unit for the purposes of buffs like Empyric Guidance Edit 2: as a proof of concept, in case there's some controversy about this, in the Hunt for the Fellwyrm scenario GW released (where you can only deploy Character units) there's an addendum that says all Characters are treated as leading a unit (the only utility of which is activating those buffs, which wouldn't matter if it was only for the attached unit)
I feel like this is a Tsons problem, and specifically because they were make for the kinds of players who love this kind of convoluted madness. Just my opinion.
I agree what you're saying here but I think that it'd be a bad idea for GW to make the game even simpler. This is Thousand Sons after all, which is imo one of the armies that should be as complex as the core rules allow it to be, same thing with AdMech. There's the simple armies like WE that literally just go and beat people up and then there's the complex ones like TS. Technically psykers have already lost their ability to actually spell cast with the removal of the psychic phase so in my opinion this type of buff layering is fine
Listening to the "Descent into madness..." part is making me reaaaaaaaal sad that I started 40K 2 months ago with Grey Knights instead of Thousand Sons. This looks like exactly what I wanted to have as an army....
10 man desolator , with Charakter that give sustain hits on a 5+, Shooting on an 10 man oath of Moment target (Hit + wound reroll) , with around 50 shots, gaining around 60 Hits.. lets put it short, in the 3 round i hated it :)
Hearing this makes me wonder why Warhammer 40,000 players call Infinity N4 as difficult and having too many rules to figure out when there's so many cross-interactions with things that seemingly make no sense...
ironically splitting fire was probably a mistake cos the characters are both pretty useless without a squad of PMs to lead. The PBC is the real threat lol
I'd like to say 2 things 1: The person who came up with the phrase "Simplified, not simple" is not only an idiot but a liar too because this game is not simplified compared to 9th, it just has less stratagems. All of the stratagems just moved to characters. 2: You have learnt something that I learnt a long time ago and so did Tau Nick from Playon Tabletop. DO NOT SPLIT FIRE! Who cares if it's overkill? embrace your slaanesh side and excessively kill something so you know it's dead. I always seem to roll poorly when I split fire (except for one time when a valkyrie killed 3 units in one shooting phase by split firing perfectly. That will never happen again) and I'm sure you do too. Tzeentch punishes you for your hubris.
Don't matter too much. Fighting against Death Guard is an instant win. It's like playing easy opponents on Command and Conquer /s Seriously though most armies did get Rules, Tsons being one of them. Admech, Votann, DeathGuard are very simple to play as they have no rules
just FYI, the sorcerer counts as part of the unit if he joins it. so he does benefit from his own buff :D
After playing for 6 years here is the best advice I can offer you.
1) Don't expect to remember it the first time. Don't expect to remember it the first 10 times. Repetition is how you will get the rules down and start to build an understanding of what you are expecting to do in the game.
2) Bring notes. If you are trying to execute a wombo combo that you know how it works, but aren't totally sure if you can remember all the pieces to it bring some notes. These can be flash cards, pieces of paper, a print out of the strategems highlighted so on and so forth.
3) Communicate at your speed. This is a big one. Communicate at the speed that you know both you and your opponent can make sense of what you are trying to say. The more time you get in with the game, the faster you will communicate. Don't be afraid to take your time and talk things out so you can keep track of what is happening.
4) Communicate everything. I mean EVERYTHING. Number of attacks, what they hit on, modifiers, how many hits , rerolls, why you are rerolling, strength of attacks, what you are wounding on, modifiers to wound, rerolls, why you are rerolling, AP, saves, modifiers to save, etc. Doing this isn't just excellent communication for your opponent, it makes sure you still know what is going on because you are going to be saying this every single time you do anything. It lets your brain follow along with the sequence of events.
Hope this helps anybody who reads this and if you read the entire thing: have an awesome day. You deserve it.
It is so incredibly important to communicate and be ready to explain what you are doing.
I played a guy that was bad at explaining things, and for other reasons I knew that he really wanted to win, despite not knowing the rules that well - this led to several times where he said he could reroll a bad roll, or got a free stratagem, but he didn’t explain where he got it from until I asked him several times to show me the rule on a data card or something so that I could read it for myself: most of the time it was completely fine, he did it as the rule stated, but he also got it wrong a couple of times as well (one time to his own detriment unless I had asked about it)
Never apologize for the Pump up the Jam joke!
And never apologise for Trolls 2
Can't ever get mad at a Cunk reference. :P
As a Necron player, I laugh at all the lesser armies who need an A4 page to explain their regular gunshuffler units
*cries in admech*
We love the thousands sons wombo combo.
It’s like, one of the 5 use of the terminators. Out of 10 useful units.
Been playing for two years, and after spending two years trying to learn the rules, I've found out it's easiest way to to just pick up a random amount of dice, point at random models, mumble some keywords, and pray my opponent doesn't notice. Hope this helps! 👍
rarely hear people talk about this but i find just setting my models up at home and running a few test scenarios can really help clear things up or at least give a better understanding for how models work
Yeah for sure. Now that I've sorted through this mess once I've learned for future so it's worth doing this at home for prep
Used to do this with my combo decks in yugioh and magic. Still do it in warhammer...
The Empyric guidance does affect the sorcerer himself, he is one of the models in the unit and from deployment they are all treated as one unit. So he gives himself lethal hits but only when he is in a unit, not if deployed alone
Hang in there Paul
Imagine using the rules instead of forgetting about them until the next turn and then studying the rules after the game only to forget them again
I haven't played in like 15-20 years and it's interesting to see how the game managed to get even more complex and convoluted.
I deff sometimes make "simple" squads as opposed to "optimal" ones just to help my smooth brain understand all the interactions
This is why I'm building a Chaos Knight army. Fewer models, fewer complex rules interactions, more fun for me.
Yeah I read the text block. Your effort is not only noticed but appreciated. Also informative.
This sort of example is exactly why I say 10th is more complicated than 9th (which I never found that complicated to play anyway, so if someone who found 9th easy to play is finding 10th a slog then something definitely went wrong)
9th just had a lot of Stuff, but Stuff between armies or units was usually pretty uniform. Now everything in 10th needs to be its own unique thing so there is no consistency across an army or across its units anymore. I played a comp practice game vs GK last week and we both wondered why Razorbacks had twin-linked lascannons, but Land Raiders have 4 individual lascannons, despite both of them having physically and visually the same weapons. In 9th Tsons just cast a lot of powers, most of which were smite. It wasn't that difficult to understand what they were doing especially as it was all done in one phase. And yet now they have their own special brand of esoteric bullshit spread across multiple phases that isn't like anything else and follows all its own weird rules and exceptions, plus you have 5 different characters all with the same named ranged Psychic Attack that all have different statlines to that attack, in fact an Aspiring Sorc on foot and disc even has a different attack statline for that one psychic weapon despite JUST BEING THE SAME UNIT. Nids are also an army where this is an absurdity; does a tyranid monster with 4-6 arms with identical weapons get Twin-Linked or not? Well, the answer is that it depends on the unit for completely arbitrary reasons.
Agree with all you've said. Our group played lots of 10th when it came out and all of us think 9th was better. Currently we're beta testing the game instead of playing with the full system and after I saw the precentages of army win rates I just gave up that I will play games like 9th ed again, at least for a year.
GW said units would be harder to kill so I thought that positioning would be the most important factor for winning games however the only change we got was tanks got tougher with better armor saves. Honestly tanks did need such a change, it would be more impactful if the strength of anti tank weapons was kept a bit lower so the vehicle/monster toughness change only matters if you're attacking them with your all rounder units becuase they have no other target.
I've played a game with my eldar(I apologize for comitting heresy) vs my friends dark angels. I wiped out his army on turn 3 I never did such a thing in 9th ed even if I played very weird csm all in combo damage no objective minded lists. A single d-cannon took 9 wounds off the Lion, I rolled 6 for the D3 all my 3 shots hit and I wounded on 2+ because of Eldad so yeah all of them hit and he failed his inv saves so I just picked a 2 from my fate pool and made it a 6 with a farseer for damage then rolled a 6 and a 2(also Lion had -2 damage so my 2 6's were 4 and the 2 was 1. The D-cannon was my first in line to shoot Lion I had a unit of fire dragons, 2 falcons and a Night spinner to shoot as well.
I know that example isn't applicable for the entire system but I had very similar experiences in the system like my Angron dying to 2 ravagers and returning the next turn and me proceeding to roll 3 6's every time( why can you bring a fucking primarch back if you just get lucky??) or you just roll very good with a sustained hits unit. The system feels very lopsided
because of some armies being able to make lists with better combos and buffs than yours and this is coming from someone who played with 30 noise marines with full reroll hits and wounds and decimator soulburners with iron warrior buffs with that horrid 8th edition chaos book ( it was fun and very unbalanced )
The last 3 months of 9th edition when everybody got their codex and was able to make lists that functioned unique from any other army so match ups were very important to think about and you could win games agaisnt your worst match up if you had an unconventional list ( best example mordian glory with his weird af guard/tau lists ). That was the best time for 40k even better than the index times. I won't comment for 7th or previous editions I don't know anything about them and heard lots of people say 7th was just shit so whatever bro
I'm yet to play with my Thousand Sons in 10th, but glad I know what I have to look forward to. Plus a neat tip make it easier for me and especially my opponent.
Honestly this is a reminder why older editions didn't allow split fire in most cases
15 minutes in generous. I'm pretty sure the heat death of the universe came and went
Time is a circle. That is why clocks are round
I always get confused I appreciate you talking about what we all struggle with 😂😂
Just to try and help slightly, at 2:50 the Sorcerer in Terminator armor does actually benefit from his own Empryic Guidence buff, the reason is while he is leading a unit, models in that unit get lethal hits, and while he is leading that unit, he is a model in that unit so he does get the effects from the buff as well
I caught the gun mistake but didn’t want to be that guy now I’m this guy explaining which guy I am not
This will definitely help me in the GT I'm going to later, as I will also be using Thousand Sons. Big thanks
Honestly. . . As much as I'd love to write another novel long comment on how to learn, manage and mitigate rules complexity. . . I got very little this time. All I did when I started playing was use an innately simpler army. Otherwise. . . I also watched alot of Battle Reports, but that helped me learn how to play other people's armies more than it helped me learn my own. Everything else just came more or less naturally to me until my brain became a small encyclopedia of rules knowledge.
As a Death Guard player we just move slow, and tickle.
Cut to me in a similar but just as awkward problem, my Thousand Sons player friend Went through this entire shebang against my lychguard, albeit a little easier because he just had to focus on one unit.
I've got a Lord w/Orb to reanimate in his command phase and -1 to wound from a noble in the lychguard block, Technomancer with Ablator for -1 to hit with range and 5+++, a Reanimator and Spyder behind them for an extra d3 to reanimate and a 4+++ against psychic damage, cryptothralls for more bodies and a 4+++ stopgap before you actually start killing the Lychguard.
After all was said and done, he killed 5 models (2 cryptothralls and 3 lychguard) and I got 3 back with the Undying Legion stratagem which is d3+1 wounds back but ot triggers reanimation so it was actually 2d3+1. Then I got topped back up at the beginning of my turn because he failed the charge.
It was a solid 20-25 minutes of awkward numbers counting and awkward rules clarification.
I play Imperial Knight, and 10th is my first time playing warhammer. So i wrote everything down and laminated my stat cards to write on them for weapons and stats. I feel like every time I play is like a quiz to I remember EVERYTHING. And I don't, but after games, I try to write down "what did I learn this game to improve on the next"
I had this problem playing T'au in 9th, what with a Crisis Bomb with 4 different weapons and whatnot. I took old Magic cards (playing cards work well too) and wrote down all the weapons and their statlines on them (for Rapid Fire weapons, flip the card 180 degrees for them) and physically laid them out in piles for each set of attacks before rolling anything. That way I'm not using dice (and therefore possibly forgetting what they are for) and I'm clearly communicating what attacks are going where.
Me, a Necron player: *screenshots the datasheets, takes wntire turn in the time it took Paul to attack with one unit.*
I picked up Thousand Sons this year as a new project. Once I'd gotten over the amount of trim they need, actually playing them is equally taxing.
As a death guard player I honestly want to have some complicated rules so I'm s little envious
I have plans for a guard army built around an indirect fire artillery combo… at least I won’t have to measure range for most of it
@2:46
Damn, I got got. XD
Wow, I haven’t encountered this kind of problem yet
The sentiment that you should bring notes helped me immensely. When I switched to Ynnari in 9e, there was an entire backlog of eldar multi-unit combos spread across psychic powers, stratagems, and unit abilities. I did not execute a single one well or quickly until I wrote down the "effectively, do this:" notes for the unit groups. Almost like an algorithm for that specific combo group. "Move scorpions, then move buff farseer within 12" of them and warlocks within 18" of high priority target, and scorpions use this strat for 1CP for -1 to hit and..."
It accelerates the mental process that you're building intuition for by preventing you from forgetting, and it's simple to take a sticky note and amend it on the fly.
1. Split firing is often dangerous, even though it's not "efficient", ensuring somethign dies is better than leaving 3 models at 1 wounds because I was playing the odds and either I rolled under average or my opponent rolled over average. I've killed vehicles the last wound on vehicles with storm bolter shots and my anti tank weapons have destroyed the last model on an objective.
2. Tell the general rule of how you'll split, and fire all the dudes firing in one model at once, then do the remaining, if it's hard to rmeember, mark which model has fired.
3. when rolling, say what matters. ie: rolling to hit on 3s, 6 matters or 5 matters. then remove the dice that matters from the pool and resolve them by themselves
ie: so these 6s are sustaining, so imma add some dice to that wound roll or they are lethal hits, so they wound.
Great video can’t wait for my first game of thousand sons this weekend now!!!
also please correct me if I’m wrong but I’m basically certain the leader buff is also given to any leader, although it says that unit, the leader is part of the unit they’re all classified as one unit until all the bodyguards are dead
This is something I'm still confused about. Because it is leading a unit and it gives its buff to "that" unit, I don't think it is given to him.
However, the unit he is leading does give their buff to the leader because it says "this" unit of which the leader is part of.
But I might be wrong on this it's very confusing. One of the less clear aspects of the rules because of the differential between this and that
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff standard GW writing, don't feel guilty. But yes, FloopLoop is correct, leaders become part of the unit they lead and thus benefit from their own buff
Ans this is why the thousand suns combat patrol is always on sale
I would suggest , that you write down certain combos with All buffs attached, so See what you got, and dont need to remember All stuff, or make little paper sheets with "+1 wound" or "leathal hits" and lay them as Token next to your units
all the games i have played so far were against a friend who was adamant about certain core rules like saving throws which later turnoud out to be wrong. so i havent even gotten a game where the basic rules were being followed.
but tbf the games were a lot of fun just by the sheer amount of dice we sometimes rolled
I've played in 10th against Marines, Custodes, Tyrannids and Sisters of Battle as Orks and Genestealer cult (but only meme builds like 30 Purestrain Genestealer).
In none of these matches did I ever saw that many layers of Buffs and Debuffs.
But then again I played a lot against Thousand Sons in 9e and the psyker phase boiled down to me waiting 20 minutes for calculations and asking how much damage I take.
It wasnt as bad as this but i had a situation where i had Khorne Kasino buffs and stratagems on my master of executions who was charging a character. Got very tongue twisted explaining to my opponent all the buffs and rerolls.
But at least they got rid of armour facings and blast templates!
That really enriched the game and made it simpler!
Honestly, this is exactly what I want from my k sons, i get to build a crazy wombo combo that actually does something.
Plus I'm incentivised to save CP for big plays instead of just rerolling and overwatching.
Yeah it's a great combo and I love it but damn does my brain be small
Am I fucking glad, that I play chaos knights. They went from one of the most complicated armies to unga bunga.
Now I just charge up the board.
this is why I write charts pre-game
Depend as guard a lot of the times the units are just pure force of number of dices
But other times betwen a lot of diferent profiles and diferent rules it takes time
The funny ones where imo the ogryn bomb of 9
5 atacks of the ogryn +3 s6 fp -1 d1
1 extra of +3 s8 -2 d1
1 astropath atack of +4 f3
3 atacks of +3 f3 energy sword
2 atacks of +4 f3 energy sword
6 bayonet atacks
it took always ages
I think T-sons are the exception to the rule
Only real "combos" I've found after playing CSM, Death Guard and World Eaters is just simple "character + unit + maybe a strat"
World Eaters have the most depth in this with the blessings I've found (it's almost like having an army rule that does something interesting helps) but even then it just boils down to advance and charge + movement or if I'm taking lots of damage 6++ feel no pain and fight on death
During a recent game of Age of Fantasy (OPR), I compared tabletop wargaming with banging rocks together. In OPR, you just bang the rocks together. In 40k, you are doing loops, dances and arcane rituals before the rock banging occurs. You may prefer either, but in the end, all we want to do is bang rocks together in a timely fashion.
Meanwhile AOS and Horus Heresy is out here with 90% of stratagems are universal stratagems so you only really need to remember 1 set for ***alll*** armies (and generally are just "+1 to hit.")
Also can I suggest using tokens of some sort like counters with symbols painted on?
Things like +1 to hit or buffs on a unit
I was under the impression that the leader of a unit falls under the umbrella term "models in that unit", otherwise wouldn't the text specify "the bodyguard unit"?
Page 39, core rules: Leader rules "While a Bodyguard unit contains a Leader, it is
known as an Attached unit and, with the exception
of rules that are triggered when units are destroyed
(pg 12), it is treated as a single unit for all rules
purposes."
As far as I know the sorcerer in terminator armour does benefit from his own buff as he is part of the unit he is leading and would from the wording of his ability benefit from it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I have a pretty easy time remembering rules and how they interact after only a few times. Paint Magnus.
Agreed on scarabs
Full combo is 10 Combi bolters plus the Sorcerer in Terminators armour
All within 12" equates 44 shots & Lethal Hits (from Sorcerer passive buff)
1 CP Ensorcelled Infusion so now they are S5 and Psyhic meaning the kindred sorcerey gives them either sustained hits 1 or devastating wounds
If they are within 6 of Magnus add 1 to the hit and wound rolls
1 CP for Devastating Sorcery meaning reroll hit and wound rolls
9 Cabal points to use Twist of fate at the start of your shooting phase to remove all armour so sustained hits is better than Devastating wounds
Except he had 2 reaper autocannons in the unit
if you want a good laugh look at the 8th/9th repulsor data sheet. multiple of the same weapons being swapped to different weapons on different pleases plus like 6 or so guns all with the same but slight different stats.
also some weapons go from weapon A to weapon B. and then weapon C can change into weapon A
As an Ademch player, i would often place random trinkets near my units to signify which buffs they got
Unfortunately i would sometimes forget what exactly did i put on them, but it was helpful
I just had to face this at a RTT this weekend......so annoying and makes attacking any unit complex.
i just keep little tokens besides my minis to know what buffs they got
:D
i paused the video....but it was worth it 😀
Me and my group talk so much during a match that it was an achievement to reach turn 2 last time so an interaction costing 15-20 minutes is the norm for me.
To be fair, your using thousand sons, who are a very crunchy complicated faction. Their pkaytyle IS layering buffs on for 15 minutes to achieve crazy combos.
Playing World Eaters is almost like the opposite end of the spectrum. I have 2 buffs I get to choose and everyone in the army gets them. After that it's just data sheets. Most armies fall somewhere in the middle.
Tbf, I do think the best players do work that stuff out the way you did, though your solution is probably better for us casuals and for a number of reasons
The best of the best can afford time to read every codex in the game several times over to gain insight into matchups and not be surprised by skew lists
They also get in several games a week on either simulators or in local clubs; this gives them lots of experience against every faction and lets them build better synergies and battle plans
They also spend lots of plans doing the math of certain combos against certain targets, giving them an even better idea on what the most efficient way to use actions is
This pretty much means they can easily pull off very compmicated combos and with model by model being far slower, it's probably more efficient to use shortcuts by calculating for the whole squad
Source: I asked a thousand sons GT player
For the rapid fire thing, you don't just measure the distance from the model the closest to the target and keep that for all models in the unit ?
My understanding is that rapid fire is model by model
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff checked the rules, it doesn't say anything specfically for this but it does say you have to roll for each weapon profiles at a time, maybe impliyng that weapons with the same profile roll all together and that you don't separate (sorry if bad english, not my main langage) for half range thingies.
Not really sure but there isn't a GW spy looking if you're respecting the rules or not anyway, so wether you do model by model or by the unit, play however you want, this is only a silly table top game anyway
It does state in the rules it is model by model as the rapid fire rule itself specifies that model must be within half range.
nevermind you have to measure from the model and not the unit so you were right
I have had no problems with 10th edition ... I simply don't play it!
I am serious, I started playing Warhammer 40.000 at the start of 3rd edition, and back then it was simple, fast, and most importantly, FUN!
Yeah I agree. Not only is this stuff hard to work out when you're playing but I can't imagine GW has any idea how to balance it either
Imperial guard shooting phase takes 10 to 20 minutes 😂
Hahaha I was thinking of starting with a combat patrol in 40k but this is making me hesitant😅
I play TS and had a 90min shooting phase.
Well, TIL about Billy Mays…
I play the better balanced smaller games, so this tends to be a lot less of a problem as you can't have all everything all at once (due to point limits)
Some armies have crazy complex stacking buffs creating super satisfying turns where you wipe out some big models and units in a single phase. Some armies have none of that.
Playing against Death Guard was upsetting. They had so few interactions vs the insanity of thousand sons and being able to delete everything with my combos
2:46 I do so enjoy wasting my time, possibly just as much as you enjoy wasting your own.
Oh hell yeah Cunk on Warhammer😂
This dude picked the army of psychic wizards who prioritize knowledge above all else and expected an easy gameplay experience lmao...
Same...
>Inexpirienced player who doesn't know his army rules by heart gets confused
Would be a better video title
My my I do (seriously) love doing apparently pointless things, me giving them sense and purpose is all that it needs to be justified (which retroactively makes them not pointless). So don't worry, ye not alone 👊
Edit: plus, unless corrected by other gentlemen down here, I could swear a Character joining a unit makes it part of that unit for the purposes of buffs like Empyric Guidance
Edit 2: as a proof of concept, in case there's some controversy about this, in the Hunt for the Fellwyrm scenario GW released (where you can only deploy Character units) there's an addendum that says all Characters are treated as leading a unit (the only utility of which is activating those buffs, which wouldn't matter if it was only for the attached unit)
I feel like this is a Tsons problem, and specifically because they were make for the kinds of players who love this kind of convoluted madness. Just my opinion.
I agree what you're saying here but I think that it'd be a bad idea for GW to make the game even simpler. This is Thousand Sons after all, which is imo one of the armies that should be as complex as the core rules allow it to be, same thing with AdMech. There's the simple armies like WE that literally just go and beat people up and then there's the complex ones like TS. Technically psykers have already lost their ability to actually spell cast with the removal of the psychic phase so in my opinion this type of buff layering is fine
I don't think they should make it simpler either. I'm just bad at the brain thing lmao
Completely fair tbh, same lmaooo@@PaulIsBadAtStuff
Listening to the "Descent into madness..." part is making me reaaaaaaaal sad that I started 40K 2 months ago with Grey Knights instead of Thousand Sons. This looks like exactly what I wanted to have as an army....
You chose the wrong shiny psychic chonky bois
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff yeah I did. Kinda regret it now, it sucks.
10 man desolator , with Charakter that give sustain hits on a 5+, Shooting on an 10 man oath of Moment target (Hit + wound reroll) , with around 50 shots, gaining around 60 Hits.. lets put it short, in the 3 round i hated it :)
try playing 4 armies: Grey knights, imp guard, T sons, space wolves. I HATE MY LIFE.
Get ur minis painted
I solve this by playing Imperial Knights and only having at most 8 dudes to think about.
Work smarter not harder
Can you at least prime magnus red
I may or may not be starting to paint Magnus on stream tomorrow 👀
What a waste of time was the wall of text😂
Hearing this makes me wonder why Warhammer 40,000 players call Infinity N4 as difficult and having too many rules to figure out when there's so many cross-interactions with things that seemingly make no sense...
Its all alpha legion supremacy
ironically splitting fire was probably a mistake cos the characters are both pretty useless without a squad of PMs to lead. The PBC is the real threat lol
I didn't want to destroy the PBC - Chauncey hadn't had a snack and was hungry for melee!
Chauncey ate it. Tasty plague
@@PaulIsBadAtStuff 🤣🤣🤣 all hail chauncey
Just play Votann, then you have no complex rules interactions to worry about
I'd like to say 2 things
1: The person who came up with the phrase "Simplified, not simple" is not only an idiot but a liar too because this game is not simplified compared to 9th, it just has less stratagems. All of the stratagems just moved to characters.
2: You have learnt something that I learnt a long time ago and so did Tau Nick from Playon Tabletop. DO NOT SPLIT FIRE! Who cares if it's overkill? embrace your slaanesh side and excessively kill something so you know it's dead. I always seem to roll poorly when I split fire (except for one time when a valkyrie killed 3 units in one shooting phase by split firing perfectly. That will never happen again) and I'm sure you do too. Tzeentch punishes you for your hubris.
Don't matter too much. Fighting against Death Guard is an instant win. It's like playing easy opponents on Command and Conquer /s
Seriously though most armies did get Rules, Tsons being one of them.
Admech, Votann, DeathGuard are very simple to play as they have no rules
Unpainted terrain AND unpainted models? ;-; my eyes
Billy Mays, taking the credit for everything 🤌
Play blood bowl instead :D
Play kill team?
Meaningful tangible work is overrated...
Spent 12 minutes watching a 7 minute video because I needed to pause and read Paul's descent into madness. Time well wasted!
Man, this video makes me glad I don't play Warhammer.
Paint something >:((((((((((((
I waste just as much time as you do on pointless side tasks instead of doing some meaningful, tangible work
Sadly the only way to get better at IT is playing a lot