Kunal Shah on winning in India, second-order thinking, the philosophy of startups, and more
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2024
- Kunal Shah is one of the most well-known and admired product leaders in India. He is the CEO and founder of CRED, an Indian-based fintech startup valued at over $6 billion. Prior to CRED, he founded three other startups, including Freecharge, which he sold for over $400 million to Snapdeal. He has also been an advisor to India’s most influential organizations. In our conversation, we discuss:
• The prevalence of successful Indian immigrants in top CEO roles across the tech industry
• Why companies in India can grow DAUs but not ARPU-and what that means for building products for India
• What most sets India’s market apart
• Challenges and opportunities in the Indian market
• The Delta 4 framework for building new products
• Lessons from building CRED so far
• The power of curiosity and second-order thinking
• Lessons from failure
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Find the transcript and references at: www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ku...
Where to find Kunal Shah:
• X: / kunalb11
• LinkedIn: / kunalshah1
• Podcast: / @cred_club
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: / lennysan
• LinkedIn: / lennyrachitsky
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Kunal’s background
(04:22) The Delta 4 framework
(11:00) The success of Indian CEOs in the U.S.
(19:55) Challenges and opportunities in India
(23:04) DAUs vs. ARPU in Indian markets
(25:50) The perception of time in India
(27:55) The curse of focus in Asian markets
(30:33) Challenges and opportunities in India (continued)
(33:23) Lessons learned from building CRED
(36:40) Profit pools can provide valuable insights into the values of a country
(37:55) Founders’ role in company growth
(39:55) Profitability and Indian business culture
(43:24) Advice for staying positive amid criticism
(44:41) The promising market in India
(47:35) The power of curiosity
(52:59) Who Kunal looks up to
(55:31) Kunal’s favorite sources of content
(58:42) Asking great questions
(01:02:54) Contrarian corner: Wealth is nothing but storage of energy
(01:05:26) Failure corner
(01:08:57) Closing thoughts: Share your learnings
(01:09:38) Lightning round
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
The longest-surviving species' analogy was amazing!
A masterclass in brevity and depth: the highest insight-to-minute ratio ever recorded!
True! What an insightful person he is. People just curse him for is loss making company.😢
Listening to Kunal every single time ends up with a paper of notes.. Great conversation Lenny!
True that sir.
The notepads in my phone are so full
is there anything about a business plan this idiots has for his company ???
Thanks Lenny, always love to listen Kunal.
Insights density / minute in this episode is > than most of your podcast episodes.Insights followed by 'for example'/ analogy is what nails this episode.
Thank you Lenny and Kunal.
Perhaps the best Lenny interview I've seen. Great chemistry between the host and guest, and it helps that Lenny understands the Indian psyche, lexicon and manner of speech very well. Kudos, and hope to see Lenny visit India sometime.
Thanks Lenny...
I explored your channel a few days back and It literally has a knowledge of billions of dollars...
Thanks for doing these things for Free.
Lenny you have nailed this podcast with your fabulous questions some of the podcast people have missed this opportunity with him of asking this deep questions great learned a lot
I believe...many of the global CEOs of Indian descent adhere to Ami Ganatra's Dharma principles, as outlined in her dharma based management principles. These principles provide significant guidance on ethical leadership, teamwork, governance, and decision-making. While they have their origins in historical texts, they hold great relevance for modern management practices by stressing ethics, integrity, and community well-being as crucial elements in accomplishing organizational objectives.
Its easy to get distracted at the phenomenal subject interviewed here in terms if Kunal Shah... But this is one where i could not in the midst of that be absolutely impressed witb the interviewer and how the interview was conducted! Simply brilliant from both people!
One of the best podcasts till date. Mindblown by every word kunal had to say in response. Hooked from start till end
I still have got to watch Kunal Shah's interview with Shreyas Doshi on "Product Sense", but I prioritised this podcast! Lenny! Long live you..Kunal Shah's emphasise on second order thinking, understanding the human behaviour and evolution were few great takeaways! God bless you both..
Absolute Gem 💎
Thank you so very much for the converstion.Its always time worthy litening to The Kunal Shah.
This is a fantastic talk. I can see Kunal's philosophy background right away
Treasure chest of knowledge, absolute golden worthy of our time❤🔥
every time I listen to Kunal speak, he comes up with sth surprising. loved the episode.
Great analogy dissecting survival of the fittest 47.35
great podcast
Kunal Shah is a gem. so happy to see him on your podcast ❤🇵🇰
That was a fantastic episode with a lot of learning
Great ❤
Now I know why I used to avoid his interviews.
As soon as I hear Devdut Patnatk, I understood what I was getting into.
Can you explain?
@@kabbiraam2513 Devdutt Patnayak represents all Indian ancient history of Ramayan and Mahabharat as MYTHOLOGY. Moreover, he interprets many other scriptures incorrectly. And he is promoted as a leading authority in Bhartiya scriptures. DP is capturing the imagination of the newly awakened Bhartiya youth on the dharmik matters. And he is promoted by the left.
MYTHOLOGY - The study of Myths. This KS uses this word for our ITIHAAS.
ITIHAAS - As it was(history)
KS says that all Bhartiya people are dumb for criticizing his for his loss making venture. He is exactly how a business should not be done.
I hope this explains what I meant.
@@indiboy7 Gotcha
Lol. Good you avoid his interviews. You wouldn't understand just as you wouldn't understand what Devdutt is trying to tell.
@@soumen_das I have read a lot may of his books. He twists and turns facts, deviating from the essence of the text. I don't want others to learn about Sanatan from such biased interpreters.
Kunal, the smartest, greatest indian entrepreneur, continues to astonish us with more insights.
amazing! the parallels between mythology & state of founders was the most fascinating during this chat where i often got lost on a tangent with Kunal' response :)
Love to learn about the differences like the concept of time of other countries but this is very interesting.
Cool Tee Kunal 🤓😎
Envy is hyperlocal... true that
The only entrepreneur who could not generate even 1 $ profit, but still managed to get attention.
kya karega profit ka criticism add karke? lets debate
40:02
The only guy who just seeing the other side of coin and being a naysayer
This comment proves Kunal's theory about Indians with their peculiar kind of criticism, hyperlocal jealousy 😂
@@soniajha5320 : sir/madam : what makes u feel that the comment is a criticism?
This was great podcast ❤
Can you please invite CTO"s that would be great ?
Yet another super episode....Kunal Shah is always fun to listen to.
lennys reached kunal damn
This was great! 🙌
Super interesting guy & a multi-disciplinary thinker who comes across as genuine.
Nice one Lenny, enjoyed it! 🙏
What is the book name that you have talked about in lightning round?
I can watch Kunal Shah giving philosophical analogies with the business world for the whole day
I'd rather focus on India learning more and more to raise our Per-Capita-Income rather than just GDP! And also to raise employability of our youth! We have a mammoth population of 140 Crores, and we really need to make it our Asset than our Liability!
@kunal Shah -
Did you know that the Kannada word for "efficiency" is ದಕ್ಷತೆ (dakshate)?
Kunal Shah, considering the richness of Indian languages, it's worth delving into Kannada to appreciate its unique qualities.
Kannada stands out as a language that's nearly perfect, with a remarkable 99.99% accuracy. Its simplicity, precision, and sweetness make it truly exceptional. Unlike English or German, Kannada doesn't suffer from gender or tense ambiguities.
In comparison to other Indian languages like Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, Tamil, Telugu, and Marathi, Kannada shines for its consistency and phonetic correctness. Notably, it can accurately represent Scandinavian names and Mandarin without losing pronunciation, showcasing its versatility and classical roots.
It's never too late to explore the richness of Kannada and discover what you've been missing out on!
Why? I appreciate it but what’s the context. Every language is right in their own context.
@@kumargourav6791 appreciate your comment but I was talking to That person who is curious about knowledge.
Dakshate or dakshta in Hindi refers to skill level in doing a particular task & is related to quality while efficiency is different imo
Interesting point about utilitarian priducts and wastage of energy.
Great podcast lenny, thanks! What was the book which you talked about at the end of the podcast, just curious?
The Secret Life of Walter Mitty
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 *🌍 Impact of Indian Leadership in Global Corporations*
- Discussion on the success of Indian CEOs in major global corporations and their adherence to foundational principles.
- Indian leadership styles tend to sustain and expand upon the original vision of companies.
02:18 *🚀 Launching and Scaling in India's Unique Market*
- The unique challenges and opportunities of launching and scaling startups in India.
- The role of national pride and government support in fostering a startup ecosystem.
05:31 *🤔 Delta 4 Framework for Product Success*
- Kunal Shah introduces the Delta 4 framework as a measure of product success.
- Products must offer significantly higher efficiency to achieve user adoption and market success.
11:19 *🧠 Philosophy and Management Insights from Indian Mythology*
- Exploring Indian mythology's insights into leadership and management.
- The significance of sustaining founders' vision and philosophy in leadership success.
20:16 *💼 The Risk Aversion in Indian Entrepreneurship*
- How societal norms and the value system impact the risk appetite of Indian entrepreneurs.
- The evolving respect and recognition for startup founders in India.
23:18 *💡 Building for Scale vs. Revenue in India*
- Challenges in monetizing large user bases in India due to lower ARPU.
- The concept of time and efficiency in the Indian market and its impact on product development.
28:20 *📱 The Super App Strategy in Low Trust Markets*
- The necessity of offering multiple services within a single app in low trust markets like India.
- Trust concentration as a phenomenon in developing countries, leading to the success of super apps.
30:05 *📈 The Importance of Brand in Indian Markets*
- Brands with historical trust and personal names hold significant value in India.
- The oldest brands, emphasizing personal connection and trust, are crucial in the Indian market.
31:04 *🚀 Opportunities and Challenges for Tech in India*
- Addressing low female labor participation and leveraging AI for inclusivity and efficiency.
- The young demographic's potential versus the learning curve in entrepreneurship and risk-taking.
33:39 *💡 Evolving with CRED: Learning from Past Ventures*
- Insight into CRED's focus on a specific customer set and the challenges of scaling a startup.
- Lessons on adapting leadership styles and company culture through different stages of growth.
38:43 *🌏 Adaptability and Curiosity in Business*
- Curiosity as a driving force for adaptability and continuous learning.
- The discussion on adaptability traits of long-lasting species and their application in business strategy.
44:55 *🇮🇳 Unique Aspects of the Indian Startup Ecosystem*
- India as a vibrant and promising market for startups, with government support and a dynamic ecosystem.
- The importance of overcoming traditional business mindsets and embracing innovative models for growth.
47:42 *🧠 The Power of Curiosity*
- Emphasizes the importance of staying curious as a means to adapt and grow, both personally and professionally.
- Curiosity as a fundamental trait for successful problem-solving and innovation.
57:30 *🎯 Second-Order Thinking and Strategic Planning*
- Exploring the impact of second-order thinking on long-term success and strategic decision-making.
- Encourages asking "why" to understand deeper implications and fostering strategic thinking from a young age.
01:02:22 *🧠 Second-Order Thinking and Child Development*
- Discussion on developing second-order thinking through history and strategy games.
- Encourages using AI as a co-pilot for enhancing learning and insight derivation.
01:03:12 *🔄 Wealth and Energy Conversion*
- Wealth is viewed as a storage of energy, highlighting the non-zero-sum nature of wealth expansion.
- Argues against the pursuit of wealth equality, advocating for the natural concentration of wealth as a dynamic of economic physics.
01:05:27 *💡 Learning from Failure*
- Shares insights on the inevitability of failure and the importance of learning from it.
- Emphasizes the human ability to forget failures while retaining the lessons learned.
01:07:30 *🌱 The Gift of Struggle*
- Reflects on personal struggles and their role in driving success and motivation.
- Discusses the challenge successful parents face in providing their children with the valuable experience of struggle.
01:09:16 *📚 Importance of Sharing Knowledge*
- Encourages listeners to share their learnings and experiences to contribute to the collective knowledge pool.
- Highlights the value of understanding human behavior and evolutionary biology for personal and professional growth.
Made with HARPA AI
Whenever i listen kunal only one word i can say amazing!
Wayy too much ads in the beginning. Please spread them more throughout the video so we can get into the interview sooner
Bro.. stop the Delta4. There's life outside of Delta4😂
Kunal Shah is a gem he so full of knowledge that I can listen him for whole day.
27:50
Daksh = Efficiency
Kunal ji, hindi me hai ❤
❤❤❤
you should try with 2 guests, as experiment...
cute tee kunal👽
Absolutely, the podcast is a treasure trove of insights-thank you, Kunal and Lenny, for such valuable nuggets. Also, that Doraemon t-shirt is pretty cool!
@32:29 - Note to self - The Interview question of giving an interviewee a task that can only be done by an AI . As, if they cant do that, they will become a liability in 5 years anyway (Not sure why that exact period of time)
First of all I think this 'AI' is overhyped similar to Web3 a few years ago.
- Reasoning? I'm not sure just the following of a familiar pattern that I see.
- Second of all, this guy is not a techie but is also a successful founder, so I'm not sure whether to take his word or not
- Also, there is the understanding from Jonathan Blow's speech of how everything is dependent on hardware and how software is banking on the success of hardware meaning that AI will become redundant when people are forced to make more efficient software to account the lack of resources to make hardware which is a very major problem that is over the horizon and can only be done by scratching recent advancements and building from the ground up which is easier said than done. Asimov foundation.
So then at 17:20 when Kunal talks about Sustenance of Dharma theory, would it be good to say that Satya Nadella is an outlier because he had to change Microsoft’s culture and strategy radically to make what Microsoft is today. How can this theory apply to him then ?
un-edited version please
1. Hourly rate concept
2. Second order thinking questions with gpt, same with something else
@lennyspodcast I love the fact that you've been constantly insinuating viewers to like the video using the artwork hanging behind you. Have I got that right?
lol, hadn't thought about that. I assume you mean the big thumbs up?
@@LennysPodcast yes, the big yellow thumbs up. It's clever.
The right term is 'subliminal messaging'.
Kunal Shah is a great personality to learn from ...!
Efficiency = कुशलता …
A founder, deeply influenced by religion and adept at linking Hindu gods with CEOs, may soon regard himself as a deity. Undoubtedly, his success warrants his confidence in what he says.
Something I would disagree would be on the point with lack of the word efficiency in Indic languages. Rather I would extend Kunal's 2*2 of obedience and values to a 2*2*2 including efficiency, where Rama is high on value and obedience and low on efficiency. While Krishna is high on value and efficiency and low on obedience. Because in dharma, obedience and efficiency becomes almost inversely proportional with a fine balancing act to be optimal.
I am glad for your unconventional thinking.. could you please explain me a bit more on how we evaluate efficiency of Rama and kRishna .. so that I can resonate with your insightful thought..!!
@@rohithchanati as someone who is an obedient follower of Dharma, every action has to follow Dharma because process matters, which makes it inefficient but sustainable. That's how Ram is. Meanwhile if someone has complete focus on the protection of Dharma, and would contribute to the potentially most time efficient solution even if it means divergence from the then socially considered Dharmic conduct. And that's Krishna for you. Here values are subsumed into Dharma.
@@gokul1255 that's a great perspective and I think as obedience is directly related to efficiency there might not be use of one more parameter. As parameters must be independent of each other in a comparison I think it's 2*2. I may be wrong, if I am pls correct it.
@@rohithchanati I think I need to clarify better. Interdependence of obedience, efficiency and values come only when following Dharma. Because Yoga means unification and developing rhythm within. Otherwise they are all independent. Because one can be high on both efficiency and obedience but low on value, like Nazi Germany or most American corporations.
@@gokul1255thanks for clarification which enabled one more dimension of thinking. I believe the word efficiency is mainly termed in democratic era that too by capitalists. However in ancient India and large parts of world, the absolute monarchy tends to be significant where the heir of the king is declared unanimously the next ruler rather considering all the eligible citizens of country. So, the monarchs might never thought of efficiency. Pls tell me if I have gone wrong someewhere
name the book?
name the movie!
Cred losses are Rs 1,047 crore in FY23 that's this guy's true credibility...he made immense money though...
Which Devdutt Patnaik book was Kunal referring to?
I asked Kunal, and he's not actually sure. It’s from a video he watched.
That moment when the podcast you follow suddenly has a celeb ❤
Hindu diaspora is very successful in the US largely due to of our culture and dharma.
If talking in terms of low trust, well I think UPI was a game changer. If even the remotest of the villages confidently use upi, isn't that something amazing? How can that be low trust? Couldn't get the point
KUNAL SHAH SAID ONE THING ITS dharma CHASE YOUR DHARMA EVERYTHING FOLLOWS YOU
12 : 24 Indian Immigrant CEOs are a good mass recruitment strategy :0)
What kunal shah has accomplished i am yet to understand and find out..why he gives so gyan without any profit
I really like Kunal's Doremon tshirt 😂
kunal is a legend!
another byjus in the making. sold freecharge early when india was being hyped. now that the air is out of the balloon cred will fall soon, mark my words.
He is good business philosopher than a good business man😅
Thumbnail pic looks like too old
Doraemon ❤
@lenny could you please name the book here you mentioned
he doesnt really name any book. He only mentions that read any book to its depth of the idea it has to offer. you need not read in its entirety.
its devdutt patnaik and duryodhana.
get an indian subtitler for gods sake
Fixed!
i love doraemon.
Would love a book on raising kids from Kunal Shah.
haha , not sure but the irony is he is childfree i believe
Kunal is a great philosopher and can speak well. But, that has not translated to his success as an entrepreneur/founder. 99% of the time the wisdom he shares online isn't used by his own venture. Cred is a laughable product that doesn't really solve a problem that can make money.
But, he's been successful as a sales person and is able to sell his brand and ideas and raise funds from VCs. So, hats off of that ability!
Cred to pay bills ✅
Cred to purchase goods❌
Kunal needs to work on his storytelling skills.
Well, talking about Indian CEOs of the US companies with their values and obidience, properly speaking, Sundar killed the heart and soul of Google. Completely. I don't know what Indian God or mythology he copies but, obviously, the wrong one.
Maybe! I am curious to understand why do you think sundar pichai has killed the heart and soul of of google. And what actions and impacts of Sundar Pichai killed the heart and soul of good.
Also, curious to know from whom the insight is coming from.. so would be great if you can mention whether you're an employee of google or worked with or close to Google in the past.
"I will take a bullet for Kunal" - An ex-colleague of Kunal said to me.
His podcast well justifies - his deep understanding of what people want & why people r ready to take bullet for him.
Wanting to build my Enterprise AI more after this podcast.
cz we are the first gen of founders doing this stuff that India has not done before.
west can learn from india that don't take unnecessary loans...
I wonder why Kunal came up with the 2nd order thinking question to be about people dying who have taken Covid Vaccine !!
Does he knows something that we don't :/
Kind of disrespectful to call it mythology. It’s Hindu scripture and legends. Please be more accurate.
What do you mean winning in india :D
cfbr
I disagree with kunal. we have word for efficiency in india. maybe he didnt know it
By the way, Devdutt Patnaik is highly discredited..
Devdutt Patnaik is at the top of intellectual dishonesty and no one avoides and dodges intellectual challenge like him. Being a humanities guy, im not at all surprised kunal quotes him, because Indian humanities is absoloutely 3rd rated.
Mr Shah, The very simple and straightforward reason why Indian origin CEO do well in the USA/ western markets is that they operate in. Christians based society that gives them the confidence to exercise their potential due to the Freedom and open / liberal mindset that exist which is the basis to grow in every sense. Conversely , Check the flip side of this argument, ask these same CEOs to come back to India and work and excel in the same way.. and I am sure they will tell you to go for a hike.. Nothing against the Hindu basics and explanations that you gave ... But this must make you start to think otherwise on this topic. The Rest is fine, keep up the good work. Cheers
The one who burns least amount of calories to get most amount of calories is a “predator”
Be a predator
Kunal's own start-up is a load of crap... None of his 'products' have any road to monetising....just enrich with investors money
Tujhe ghanta kuch nahi pata phir
You don't know shi*
@@kunal8050 why do jokers like you have to show their class at every opportunity?
@@himshaky Because idiots like you need people like me to keep things in check ✅
@@kunal8050 batade bhai revenue model cred ka
@@himshakylook who's talking about class 😂
OMG. This is the biggest nonsense
@kunal shah
What is the meaning of "samarthya"?
This is common word in any Indian language
Do you still think, there is no word for efficiency in indian dictionary?
Samarthya means ability right?
Samarthya means competence.
Thank you
Yes you both are right!
"Samarthya "means ability and also compitance with respect to "Time"
What is important here to note is underlying factor is "Time"
(we all know one sanskrith word cant not be directly matched with any one English word)
Thank you for your reply
Anyway enjoyed the podcast very much
Big fan of kunal shah👍
you are right! capability wrt time. but I its was baked in to our thinking we would have had an explicit work for it