Correct stack mounting is critical for Betaflight 4.3! A base nut can make all the difference...
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
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Oh! I've always used the "golden nut" method just for easier instalation and clearance under the esc for wire management. Glad I stumbled on the better way just cuz I'm crazy and like ultra clean builds 😁
Same here 🙂
This is nuts.
I do this to most of my builds more so to secure the stack and stop the stack screws from loosening. Glad to see this also improves the frame resonance.
Yeah I find a dot of threadlock/damping grease is good to stop those golden nuts from backing off.
It''s clear to see how the nut head "clanging" on the underside of the frame creates noise. Nice diagrams Chris. (Golden nuts 😁)
Oh I hope that name doesn't stick 🤣
@@ChrisRosser haha!😄
On a recent build I used nylon screw and nylon nuts and stand-offs, no rubber mount for ESC, just for FC, I also put a stand-off on top and sandwiched the mount pillars assembly between the two frame plates. I used nylon hardware to reduce weight not noise, but I think it dampens noise and shock in some cases too. I got 5db less noise with this system. The most noise-reducing method however is installing braces between the arms you can get up to 5-7db noise reduction. One more thing - tightening of the top nut matters since it controls the compression or dampening of the rubber FC holders. You can think of it as analog "D term" adjustment. On one end if it's loose they provide little fastening and a lot of noise , and on another end if they are tight you get something close to solid mounting , so again little dampening. I suspect there should be a middle sweet spot, would be curious if someone would like to experiment with tightening those screws more and more and record the results.
Got one flyaway and one rough motors for poor stack mounting in the last few months. This video was much needed Chris thanks for making this video.
Glad I could help!
@Seii-FPV Nylon nuts can't be done up tight enough without stripping. Metal nuts only for me steel, aluminium or titanium are good.
It's amazing to see the difference 😯
I've always mounted my stacks with the golden nut without even thinking about vibrations.
Critical yet highly overlooked detail! Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for your in-depth analysis. I’m not into tuning and blackbox at all but having a clean build is very important
Glad it was helpful!
Great work here. I appreciate how clearly you are able to explain this for us less tech savy pilots.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I will try it.
I had the same experience. Thanks for your comprehensive and scientific explanation.
I always thought this was the best way to mount the stack, all my quads have been mounted like this, now you have proven it's true. Thank you. I purchased the new AOS 5.5 v2 Gold just now. I just love your quad frames Chris and I thank you for that too.
I've been doing this for years as a way to keep the stack screw solid and tight... glad to see there's a bonus to it as well!!
Thanks for the video. Is a steel nut necessary? Or is a nylon nut also okay?
also ok
All my builds uses this method. Like a building facing an earthquake, the more flexible the base, the greater the amplitude and the lower the frequency of oscillation of the building. In this case the stack is the analog of the building. The amplitude on oscillations in the yaw axis is mainly because the center of mass of the stack does not coincide with the center of rigidity of the base, which generates torsion in the Z axis, just like a building. One way to improve this condition is by fixing the capacitor and power cable to the frame.
This might be my golden ticket! Thank you for this info.
Good demonstration, nice video.
Looks like I'm about to do a bunch of rebuilds. Thanks Friend! Great Info as always!
Brilliant! The new standard in builds.
Great find and in future I will use the extra nut. Thanks.
You're welcome!
So that's why my mark4 was having trouble with 4.3. Very hot motors after a first flight and added a low pass filter to fix the issue to 90Hz. I've just changed to golden nut configuration after your video now. The factory setup had rubber grommets for FC screws to the frame. Added two nylon nuts to both sides of the frame to secure the screw. Will fly and see if I can remove the newly added filter for 4.3. By the way mark5 has steel press nuts on the frame (GEPRC seems to be aware of the issue). My racer bcrow frame has also those metal press nuts on the frame and it has nearly no noise even without the filters. Now I understand. Thanks Chris for this wonderful insight.
You're welcome!
I have been doing it this way from day one. Good to know I figured it right.
Spot on. I've ben using long steel screws for a while but only recently discovered the base nut!
It's a good thing I've done this since day one. It just makes common sense :)
Luckily, I did this on my very first build; not realizing that I was reducing that much vibration. I had heard that there was some type of bad effect on the flight controller if it was able to move a lot, so I had decided to add nuts to the bottom of the screws. First I added the nuts to the screws, but didn't tighten them. Then I set the ESC over the screws to keep the tops of the screws lined up with the stacks holes, Then I tightened the screws down to the bottom plate. This allowed the ESC and FC to beable to easily slide on and off of the stack screws. It definitely kept the stack securly in place. Thanks for all of the technical info.
You're very welcome. 😁
Excellent video. Clear, concise, very informative. A lot of other presenters should take notes.
Textbook perfect! Kudos. A+
Thanks for this info. I've lucked into this best practice because I wanted to keep my screws/bolts from falling through the frame while I work. That is so annoying. Now that I know this, the nut is a double win.
I always thought this was common knowledge apparently not haha. I like to use the nylon nuts so if anything does happen to bump around on a crash it can't short if anything hits the nut.
this!
I love this
Maybe a nylon nut on a steel/titanium screw but that’s not really going to help with short-potential very much. Using nylon screws on a 5”? Absolutely not…
Agreed though. I’m a bit surprised to learn that anyone would be building stacks without deez golden nuts… I guess I just thought that was standard practice
Thats excellent...... I fly Apex frames on my 5 inch builds.
Nut as standard... 😀
Nice 👍
Booooooom!!! I’ve been doing this for a while and I’ve been saying the same thing. Your quad is quieter. Thank you for proving it Chris.
No problem 👍 If you have the discussion in future you can just link to this video for evidence 😁
@@ChrisRosser already spreading it like wildfire sir
@@ChrisRosser I know it wasn’t apart of your test but another thing I do is run short screws, stick a o ring on top of the nut, no gummy in the esc, o ring on top of the esc, then run rubber vibration dampeners. I need to look in black box to see how that would look. I wonder if it real is better
This video was truly neeeeeeded
Great job putting some results to this stuff Chris. It would be nice to see what happens if you use nylon nuts around the ESC instead of a gummy.
Nice knowing this. I've been using clinch nut in all my fc's
I've been using a nut under the esc forever, but never knew it was helping with vibrations... one of my first builds hit the ground hard (I was just starting out) and the ESC hit the carbon fiber enough to get through the coating and short out... I was looking for ways to elevate it off the frame a little and a nut was a good simple solution. Glad to hear it has additional benefits!!! Also, haven't shorted anything since.
Awesome, thanks you!
You're welcome!
That is great information
Glad it was helpful!
very interesting.
guess I'll order some extra nuts for my next build
Thanks!
* putting up my radio voice: This video is brought to you by Chris ''clean quad'' Rosser
I've done this for as long as I can remember, it just seemed to make sense.
You clearly saw the benefits! Hopefully this data shows just how much benefit there is.
I'm astonished 🙂
This was very informative, I've not seen this information before and it's such an easy thing. Are there any other small things that newer builders can do that make large differences like this?
Seems obvious now that I see you explain it , Thanks!
Glad to help 😁
Next nice comparison would be Nylon Screws VS Metal Screws for stack mounting. I always wondered which is the best method but never had the time to do the tests by myself
This might be the tip I was looking for. My drone has some strong noise on the yaw axis and less noise on the other axes, but I could find anything on the internet why. I also noticed that my stack is quite loose compared to my other drones. I tightened it already with a thicker screw, but the golden nut might be the solution! noise test on the desk looks already a lot better. Thanks!
Wow, good info... Was wondering why my AOS3.5 V2 had a bit more noise than expected and this could very well be it.. In fact all of my quads are missing that bottom stack screw and both have had noise issues at some point. Good video.
This is Nuts
Chris I noticed the same thing but I use the golden nut to lock the ESC in place and secure the FC with another nut. I can tune out vibration by the top nut on top of the FC by tightening or loosing it. Normally a snug fit the Kwad flies perfecting. In builds where I am concerned about stack coming in contact with the frame or screws I use the golden nut on the bottom.
i just got into this hobby, the fact the people have to be told this blows my mind...
I guess we think that what we know is obvious and what we don't know is obscure. But it's not always true. 😁👍
I'm rebuilding my stack ASAP!
In recent times i also always use lock nut and steel screws for the stack
I m not surprise, but the amplitude of this phenomen is really intersting !
Great Video! Oh and 4" rules 😅
Shocked!
tyvm, very valuable information. never occured to me to build it without the bottom nut, but nice to quantify the difference. do you also measured it against hard mounted without rubber mounts?
On the iflight xl frames there is a press nut for the stack screws in the middle plate, so it does this job by design, and I noticed this from the yaw data compared to the armattan badger.
That's NUTS!
For me it was obvious since i took a look at mounting diagram. But now I got more than intuitive understanding why most of good frames have pressnuts for fc stack mounting.
I'm not a hug fan of pressnuts for stack mounting as it makes it more difficult to have 30, 25 and 20mm (M2 and M3) mounting options in the same location. Adding a nut on the bottom of the stack achieves the same effect and you can use it no matter the stack size.
@@ChrisRosser yes, I agree, it's more customizable solution of course! But I mean, installing press nuts in the frame kits they kinda force us to mount stacks properly by default. Ideally they'd better point it out in manual and provide us with a number of additional nuts, but still it's better than none for ones, not subscribed to your channel :)
If the base plate uses press fit nuts (which help hole the screws in place), is the addition of a golden nut still required/recommened?
Hello Chris. Always very interesting contents. Maybe it’s a trivial thought, but have you ever tried (if possible) to invert Fc position with the Esc? I’m wondering if the higher position on the stack is more susceptible to vibrations? Wish you a nice day!
This is really good idea 🤔
Often thought having ESC's above FC would provide better cooling, as space above the stack is more than below.
Having FC lower (with inertia sensors) would move it closer to more ridge end of stack standoff (in the case of vibrations along the length of a standoff).
I've thought the same just never tested
Filed under 'things I already learned because I build horribly janky nonsense'... but it is right and completely relevant.
Yeah BF 4.3 really benefits from having low noise at low frequencies below 100Hz in particular. High frequency noise is handled well by the notches so is less of an issue.
I think the extreme response of the yaw axis is due to the entire stack being able to torsionally rack on that axis when the forces are applied to it. The gummies are only reducing the noise on the other axes because they can't move that way, but are able to slide across each-other between the FC and ESC. Seeing the physics playing out in the data, it definitely seems that way.
I agree, yaw is definitely the worst affected.
I always used the golden nut. Hold screws in place. Easy to get flight controller and esc In
That's why I like the diatone stacks the most as they provide this stackmount square to sandwich your frame and screws with
Is what that metal (or is it plastic or) plate is with Mamba stacks?! I’ve never been able to work out where they’re supposed to go :/
@@tmdhvn I think they were meant for going at the top of the stack but my builds never allowed for this. it has to be metal otherwise it's useless
@@RobertLeeuwerink Thanks - I was just trying to remember if the plate I had was metal or plastic, but yes, plastic makes no sense :)
I think I might be thinking of something else though. Thanks for the reply anyway! Happy flying
Equally important is the quality of screw to hole fit in a frame. Some frames use elongated holes to allow various size motors, or FCs to be used vs individual round holes. The fitness (lack of play) in frame hole vs screw diameter could also be a factor.
Have noticed a couple of frame kits hat have screws/bolts with M3 style heads on M2 threads. Not sure if larger head size would help provide more secure (less vibration fit), or is done from a style aesthetics design perspective.
I'm interested in the Nyquist plot of the sensitivity. The limiting factor of the controller bandwith is most likely the prop frequency or the poles frequency. Since you know how fast the prop is spinning, you could apply a notch that follows that frequency a priori.
Great video.
what are your thoughts on a stack installation with countersunk vs non-countersunk
(my guess is it is helping with horizontal YAW axis vibration ) as there is to the nut HEAD also a "stopper" vs only the scraw body.
I thought this was how everyone did it. I didn’t like mine all loosygoosy. Glad to see I got something right!
I wonder if wrapping the battery strap over the entire body vs wrapping just around the top / lower plate makes a difference in vibration as well.
I haven't noticed a big difference but I'll give it a go.
Great video!!!!
I have been very interested in this exact aspect for a couple years. I have a question when you say golden Nut what exactly do you mean?
I didn’t hear you clarify. I’m reviewing the video now but it doesn’t sound like you specify what the nut is made of that cinches the frame.
You did say that the top of the stack nut was a steel nut. I assume we could use an aluminum nut as well.
The reason I ask is because I think nylon would probably work best??? On the other hand aluminum or steel would be more secure letting more vibration through,I would think 🤔????
I wish I could’ve brought this up to you before you did the testing. This would have been easy to test during your test. lol ha ha.
Have a nice day Chris!!!!
Your videos are my favorite !!!!
I watch you & Bardwell & It’s Blunty as my comfort tv most of the time ha ha lol 😂
It’s got to have it’s Blunty though sometime Bardwell is a little opinionated. I’ve actually met him in person at the Washington DC FAA protest and the day after at the Rosedale park get together fly off.
I always use steel hardware. Nylon and aluminium strip too easily.
I always used a nut for the stack screws, lately locknuts, and I haven’t be able to mount the Fc over the esc so close, so I use nylon nuts between FC and nuts, that could be an interesting comparison too !
I use steel thin nuts (with damping grease as a threadlocker) because I find the plastic nuts strip quite easily. The thin nuts are good to minimise the stack height.
Isn't this how the apex has always mounted the stack? The countersunk stack screws are clamped tight onto the bottom plates using locknuts. Helps keep the ESC up and away from being too close to the carbon too!.
I use nut fix of stack screw in all my builds. Also the lower floor of the frame must be rigid. Low mount of battery may reduce noise too.
Nice one, did you put damping greace on all mating surface on your test? If not is it possible to add this information in a short video???
Thank you
Great work
Damping grease on the screws only in this build as it was a prototype.
That is a good idea and what I thought but last month I was building an AOS 3.5 with a base nut on the front stack until it tried to mount the camera. Then I had to take it apart to remove the bottom nut and fit a slightly shorter screw to be able mount the carbon pieces for the camera. OOPS
After watching your videos for my first legit build, I had this down intrinsically. No rocking long screws here
Chris, good detailed information. I use a single aluminum screw for the stack. I see your digram show steel. Do you think steel and aluminum have any significant difference for this task?
I don't think so.
Very interesting. Does this situation consider threaded inserts in the frame? For example my TBS source one frame allows me to screw the arms through tbe bottom plate and the exact same screws are used for stack if that makes sense
Hopefully you made the AOS 3.5 v2 a bit wider and fixed the issue of the front camera cage taking hight off the front stack.
I'm not sure if this affects vibrations, but a good tip is to use a washer between the bottom nut and the gummy so that the gummy is better supported and don't deform around the nut.
That's a nice idea. I fly quite slammed frames so I have to use a thin nut on the bottom. If someone is using a full size nut they could probably swap to thin nut+washer.
I just fitted mamba race stack and esc screws directly into frame.
It would be interesting to see how it perform in black box.
That was useful info. Thanks. Made me want to order AOS 3.5, but cncdrones is not delivering to my country :(
Great video ,i use tjese nuts on all my build ,mostly to let the esc not to be to close to the carbon frame.
I also do have one question, is it possi le to add ICELAND to the shipping lost for the aos frames?
Would really like to get me a 7" :-)
Thank you.
I've been doing this on all my builds for years. Always thought it was common practice.
It should be! I think most people have moved away from nylon standoffs to a long steel screw but the base nut is also very important as it turns out.
@@ChrisRosser I still have a large assortment pack of nylon standoffs, screws and nuts at the bottom of my parts bin where they will likely stay until the day I finally clean it out. Lately I've been using those anodized aluminum stack spacers in my builds. Looking forward to getting a AOS3.5 V2!
@@skree_fpv436 Yeah, I've actually started drilling out my nylon standoffs to use as spacers. I hope the AOS 3.5 V2 flies great for you. Design description video incoming.
Hi Chris, will using metal standoffs with this nut placement produce more vibration than that of a metal screw?
We knew that.
I think a lot of people did. My main goal was to show exactly how much difference the nut makes and to provide a reference to link to when someone asks "but does it really make that much of a difference?"
My buddy and I are actually both making this change today, then i see this video. 🤔
Well now you know what to expect!
👍👍
I've been using the golden nut since my first build without knowing it was actually that much more beneficial then just being able to run my Vista cable and other miscellaneous wires occasionally safely under the ESC. 😁
Question though, what about a frame that has that threaded insert? I still use the golden nut but is it necessary?
Out of curiosity, would you get the same effect if you had a bottom square, arms, then a button plate with an m3 press nut in it(30x30)? I designed a frame that way and I'm wondering if I'd get the "golden nut" effect with it
Yes I think so.
Would be interesting to compare countersunk screw(head) hardware vs. flat bottom heads?
How motor wires are secured to the frame near the ESC could another area to investigate. Limiting the length of wire that can flex near an ESC (FC stack) that can flex will reduce another vibration source. (both motor wires, and main battery wire)
THX bro!These day my 2.5inch FPV drone doesnt work as well as it use to，I replace some motor it doesnt work.The nut I use in my drone is made by plastic，Im going to buy some “golden nut”（of course metallic thisi time），hope it works！
It really work！
Great comparison, thanks! Next question, that I faced recently: if I use golden nut approach, and my steel screws are so long, that they touch top plate from left and right side (top plate is narrow) is it good or bad? Should I cut screws to be shorter?
Great info! As always!
I assume on AIO's there shouldn't be much of a difference (?).
Also, how much torque do you apply on those (and on general) screws/nuts? I tend to go overboard on the tightening and got a torque screwdriver to avoid damaging the parts...
Thanks in advance!
I have a rule. 2 fingers on the screwdriver (finger and thumb) for M2, 3 fingers on for M3. 👍
@@ChrisRosser thanks! Thats an easy one to remember!
Follow up question! I was watching the debut of the aos 5 "perfect build" yesterday and noticed you had tucked the esc wires between the fc and esc.... is this another Rosser practice? I have the mamba interference isolation stack so I worry about damaging that.
Does the noise reduction come from the gyro in the stack vibrating with a lower amplitude or the frame being more rigid over all if the stack screws contribute to pressing the frame plates together (in case the stack screws go through a bottom plate)?
the noise reduction comes from having the large bolts secured, wich transfers less motor vibrations into the gyro.
This example has nothing to do with frame rigidity.
I'd be interested in how this compares to a hard-mounted stack without rubber-gummis.
Gummies should perform better because they act as a natural lowpass filter. Less digital filtering needed in BF.
@@TimeFadesMemoryLasts Yes. But does it really make a difference?
I think the Butterflight people argued that if you are using Kalman filters hard mounting reduces phase delay without much of a downside. For Betaflight filters everyone suggests using soft mounting but I am curious if there is much of a measurable difference or if it is even detrimental.
@@uhu4677 Yes, it does 😃
@@Gosuminer in theory rubber should even stimulate very low frequencys and attenuate higher ones over the natural ressonance frequency of the system
I always use stacked nylon standoffs which I admittedly aren't as robust in hard crashes, but I imagine would be better for resonance since they isolate vibrations between layers of the stack. You should do a comparison sometime.
I've had issues with nylon standoffs stripping out. I think steel screw + gummy probably has more of a damping effect than a hard nylon standoff. Do you use gummies with your nylon standoffs?
@@ChrisRosser interesting, I've never had any of my M3 or M2 standoffs strip out, but they do break sometimes. I only use gummies on the FC, that way the ESC always has a rigid mount.
My matek f722 boards came with 3mm x 8mm vibration standoffs but i really think they are too weak and result in resonance problems on punchouts with inperfect props.
This is how the flightone guys recommended you build although they recommended not even using the top nut.
Maybe you could include ten nuts with your frames instead of the 5. Also if you could include the 6mm screws for the camera mount for the 03 as the 4mm stock ones don’t fit in the silicone spacers. Just a thought. Still look forward to the build.
i never had so much difference in vibration results because of mounting. coming from ages of old big FCs, we always mounted the FC from ESC seperate. if possible we still mount the esc and pdb together and the FC seperate to topplate. Biggest error in my builds was trying to damp out the fc from the frame with rubber and all sort of soft stuff. best results is a stiff frame and not a single cm of a loose cable or antenna. with the modern frames and filters alomost every build should fly well.