It's ironic that the video starts by saying that ancient Greek has a pitch accent, and then the speaker never (or rarely) uses the pitch indicated, uses a stress accent instead, and never gives the vowels their proper quantity or quality. A long vowel in ancient Greek is a different from a short vowel in DURATION, not in quality. A long vowel is roughly twice as long (two feet or moras) as its short vowel counterpart (of one foot or mora). Thus, η is the same sound as ε, but roughly twice as long in duration. The same is true of ω and ο. If one then understands that an accent cannot fall back further than three or four moras or feet (with some notable exceptions involving long vowels in the penultima), the whole issue of accenting becomes much easier to understand. The pitches are not that dramatic, and there is no excuse not to use them for ancient Greek. Aristotle even noted that some people thought that the pitches could be eliminated completely (which is probably why they eventually were eliminated in later centuries in favor of a stress accent). Aristotle did not agree with that view because a wrong pitch or absence of pitch in the spoken language could change the meaning of a word. The acute was a rising pitch of one foot or mora; the grave a lowering or flattening pitch of one mora or foot in length, and a circumflex is a rising then lowering pitch over two feet or moras. If you don't use these pitches with accurate timing, ancient Greek poetry loses its rhythmic structure. By the way, the letter υ is not pronounced like the sound "oo" in English. it is a front rounded vowel pronounced like the ü in über or the u in the French word "fut." The Greeks came up with the diphthong ΟΥ (ου) to render the sound "oo." Furthermore, ο is not pronounced like α. It is pronounced o, just like ω, only shorter in duration. This is the trouble with the Erasmian system. It only gets it half-right with regard to ancient (classical) Greek, and not at all correct for Koine Greek (which entirely lost pitch accent and the distinction between long and short vowels in pronunciation).
I just found this video and saw this comment, and it would have been much more helpful if you could have linked at least a single video with correct prounciation.
John Wadsworth Your comment is accurate. I used to read the descriptions of ancient Greek system and always wonder how people are assuming to determine it's correct pronunciation or not. They should study it at least. I know Koine Greek is different with Attic. Depending on so-called "Greek New Testament study" is kinda entrap. Pronunciations used to change through the centuries and I as frequent traveler do not so care about dialects if it is identical for us locals. Speaking "Kai" or "Kie" is not so important. So many anti-Erasmian-fundamentalists even don't have the knowledge of basic grammar of ancient Greek and presume this is correct pronunciation or not. I think that'd be dangerous. Moreover, being modern Greek native speakers does not mean that they can grasp ancient Greek. The same is other languages. For example, if I found a Japanese who said that he/she can understand perfectly ancient Japanese without dictionary, I'd 100% suspect and determine he/she is a liar.
John Wadsworth Your point of view is found also in Balkanian languages (so-called Yugoslovenski). The Pitch changes the meaning (Ex: Grad). It's the Same spelling. Japanese language also.
@@tomkot search on youtube the channel, "podium arts" and "polymathy" or his personal channel "scipiomartianus" (his greek videos, mainly he does latin)
Did you know that αι and οι used to have a letter as a whole in Linear B? That's strange, given that linear characters were about either a Vowel or a consonant and a vowel.
I think it is the greatest mistake in teaching Ancient Greek that the accents are not really PRONOUNCED. If you learn to pronounce them along with each new word you learn, half of the big problem is gone...
As I remember, the grave accent does not indicate falling tone in Ancient Greek. Circumflex indicate a falling tone instead. Grave accent means a lighter rise than the acute.
Can you do other Greek Diacritics, like the Prosgegrammeni, or Ypogegrammeni? The acute in Greek is called "Tonos" and the grave is called a "Varia." Some suggestions.
Do you pronounce the words with 'pitch accent'? Let's say that there is a word with 4 syllables and the second is accented. Do you assume that the pitch is low-high-high-high, low-high-low-low or something else?
So unfortunately most classicists don't really understand much about how pitch accent works functionally/how to pronounce it. Ancient Greek phonology is based on the mora rather than the syllable (you can find explanations online of the difference), and when a mora is accented it means that there is a drop in pitch in the following mora, not necessarily that the accented mora is the only high mora. So, if you have a four mora word and the second is accented, the following the accented mora there must be a drop in pitch. Whether or not the first mora is as high or lower than the accented mora actually doesn't matter. So it could be H-H-L-L or L-H-L-L. I suggest looking up explanations of Japanese pitch accent because it's actually a nearly identical system to ancient Greek.
It's funny! The accentuation of the Greek uses the terms "antepenultima", "penultima" and "ultima" just the same the Spanish language accentuation system uses (antepenúltima, penúltima and última properly written in Spansh). It also, counts the syllables in the same way. The difference is that the Spanish accent marks the stressed syllable instead of its length.
You know, it is just because these are Latin terms, and both Ancient (Modern too) Greek and Spanish have/had accent which can/could occur in three different positions... Nevertheless, ancient Greeks did not use these terms, it is a contemporary invention. So it is not so strange as it may look at the first sight.
In English teaching of classical Greek we traditionally refer to accent positions by these terms: oxytone = acute on last syllable; paroxytone = acute on penultimate; proparoxytone = acute on antepenultimate; perispomenon = circumflex on last syllable; properispomenon = circumflex on antepenultimate; barytone = grave on last syllable. That covers everything.
@Fashy Goy Πιστευω ότι η Ερασμιακή εφευρεθηκε ούτως ώστε Αγγλοι και Γερμανοί λόγιοι να μπορουν να ακολουθησουν τις μελέτες της Καινης Διαθηκης στην κοινή αρχαία ελληνική χωρίς να ακούγονται σαν καθυστερημένοι ανεπίσημα, αλλα τουλάχιστον επισήμως. Αυτό γιατί δεν εχουν ευκολα καποιους ήχους όπως το μαλακό γγ ή σε καποιες περιπτώσεις γ (gh)+συμφωνο και φυσικά προτιμουσαν να ταυτιζουν την σειρα του αλφαβητου (β ως λατινικό b ηχο, δ ως d ηχο), ενώ παραλληλα τους ηταν πιο ευκολο να ακολουθουν την λατινική μεταφορα όπου πχ τα περισσότερα γ μεταφερθηκαν ως g καθως τους ηταν πιο ευκολο από το να αρχίζουν οι λεξεις με ημισυφωνα όπως το y ή w (το οποιο προφερεται από τα χείλια). Βεβαια το ελληνικό υ όντως προφεροταν σαν υψιφωνο ου και πιθανότατα όντως εως κ την κλασσική εποχή τα ει αι οι κλπ είχαν καπως διαχωριστική προφορα, αλλά πολύ πιο γρηγορα από ότι τα προφερουν οι ερασμιοι. Γι' αυτό και μεταλλάχθηκαν αργοτερα. Στην πραγματικότητα όμως κανεις δεν ξερει πως προφέρονταν ορισμενα γραμματα, ουτε καν αν συγκριθουν με άλλες διασκευασμενες γλώσσες της εποχης όπως τα Λατινικά. Εχουμε πολλα παραδείγματα που αντικρουουν την ερασμική αποψη, καθως και πολλα παραδείγματα ονομάτων και ηχων που μεταφέρονται διαφορετικά από γλωσσα σε γλωσσα και φωνητικά και γραμματικά. Αν θες δωσε καποιο παράδειγμα Ποντιακών σε συγκριση με την αρχαία Ιωνική
@Fashy Goy ευχαριστώ, παντως ποιος ξερει αν πρόκειται για ιδίωμα ή αν όντως μεταφερθηκαν έτσι από την αρχαία εποχη και αν ναι, από πότε ισχύουν. Γιατι και αυτοί δεν είμαστε σίγουροι αν ερχονταν σε επαφη για να επηρεάζονται από τις εκάστοτε αλλαγες. Γιατι κ το νυφε δεν φαινεται να το λενε Νυ(ph)ε. Τουλάχιστον στα παραδείγματα σου δεν βλέπω αυτό που μας απωθεί, δηλαδή τα απεχθή b, g, d & j). Και δεν βλέπω να κρατησαν και το υ (Νούφε), το οποίο επίσης ξενίζει κ καλώς αλλαξε στο βυζαντιο
@@TMPOUZI Παιδιά είστε και οι δύο πολύ λάθος στο θέμα. Απλά ψάξτε το κανάλι Podium-Arts και ακούστε την ανακατασκευασμένη αρχαία ελληνική προφορά με τα πιο σύγχρονα στοιχεία που διαθέτουν οι σχετικοί ιστορικοί γλωσσολόγοι. Η ερασμιακή προφορά μπορεί να σας ξενίζει, όμως έχει κάποια σωστά στοιχεία, αλλά και αυτή ωχριά μπροστά στο τέρας της ανακατασκευασμένης προφοράς, η οποία είναι τόσο περίπλοκη που δεν μπορώ καν να πω μία λέξη χωρίς να κάνω λάθος. Ο τύπος στα βίντεο του καναλιού που ανέφερα είναι Έλληνας και έχει κάνει τρομερή δουλειά την οποία σας συστήνω ανεπιφύλακτα. TL;DR: η ερασμιακή προφορά είναι ανακριβής, αλλά η πραγματικότητα είναι ακόμη πιο απίστευτη.
@@karlpoppins Τρίχες κατσαρές! Οι Έλληνες, μέσα στο πέρασμα των αιώνων αποφάσισαν την προφορά της γλώσσας τους. Είναι σημαντικό για τους γλωσσολόγους να ερευνούν την προφορά, αλλά για τον έλληνα της εποχής μας το να επιμένεις να μάθει τα αρχαία με την προφορά της αρχαίας εποχής είναι βλακεία.
@@acstamos Έλλην ή μη, αν θες να διαβάσεις αρχαιοελληνική ποίηση στο σωστό μέτρο πρέπει να τη διαβάσεις με την αρχαία προφορά. Για τους μαθητές στο σχολείο αυτό ίσως να μην είναι σημαντικό, αλλά θα πρέπει τουλάχιστον να διδάσκονται ποια είναι αυτή η προφορά, και να έρχονται σε επαφή με αυτήν έστω μία-δύο φορές, ώστε να γνωρίζουν πώς έχει αλλάξει η γλώσσα μας σε βάθος χρόνου και να μην αναπαράγουν ανακρίβειες όπως αυτές του τύπου που έγραψε το αρχικό σχόλιο.
To the disagreement about the accents: it is important to remember that there are no unanimity among scholars upon the general character of the accents. But there are many opinion that hold they are stress-accents often accompanied by tonal shifts. Greek and Latin are dead languages, ie. they haven't been spoken in a living culture for quite a while now, so clearly we cannot know for sure.
Sorry, but the ancient Greek pronunciation of η (the letter eta) is like the "ai" in wait and the ancient Greek pronunciation of the diphthong αι (alpha iota) is like the "ai" in aisle.
Long and short vowels exist only in metrical speech, such as song and poems. Ordinary speaking was straight. As we can read in homer the tones are completely random, depending on the emphasises which the poet wanted to give. Long and short vowels are a later misunderstanding of the scripts.
The pronantiation is problematic. at 4:42 the speaker instead of reading λύομεν (ly-o-men, the stress goes to the first sylable, which meens we solve) he says λούομεν ( lu-o-men, which means we shower). As a Greek native speaker I find it very hard not only to hear but also understand when someone tries to speak ancient Greek using erasmian pronantiation, whithout taking into consideration how for example the diphthongs, especialy double vowels, are pronounced. This kind of pronantiation has no rythm and no harmony in it.
@@Panemorphy το υ ειναι ημιφωνο στα αρχαια (οχι παντα αλλα στις περισσοτερες διαλεκτους) δηλαδη ακουγεται σαν γιου, βου, γου, ου, σου. Δεν εχει σταθερη προφορα οπως και το ιωτα. Σημερα το λεμε με τον ηχο που οι αρχαιοι ειχαν για το Ε/εψιλον. Γι αυτο το υ παντα δασυνεται. π.χ. η λέξη υετός σημαίνει υγρασια και ειναι η ιδια λεξη με την αγγλικη λεξη sweat που σημαινει ιδρώτας. Το δασυνόμενο υ στις αλλες γλωσσες γραφτηκε σαν σου, γιου, σβ και παρομοια. Οι λεξεις sub, super ειναι οι ιδιες με τις υπο, υπερ. Η αρχαια του προφορα (ή χρηση καλυτερα) έχει διατηρηθει εν μερει στα αυ-, ευ-. Το ου ακουγοταν σαν ουβ ή ουj ή βγιου στα αρχαια αναλογα με τη θεση του μεσα στη λέξη, μεχρι που αποσιωπηθηκε τελειως το υ και εμεινε το ου μονο με την αρχαια προφορα του Ο/ομικρον που ειναι ου οταν χρησιμοποιηται σαν φωνηεν και β οταν χρησιμοποιηται σαν συμφωνο. π.χ. η λέξη οίνος προφεροταν βίνους ή γουίνους. Γι αυτο και οι λατινικες λεξεις που προερχονται απο τα ελληνικα στη θεση του O εχουν V.
tiktaktik tamtamtam wow καταπληκτική εξήγηση. Σας ευχαριστώ. Το μόνο πράγμα είναι ότι είναι λίγο δισκολο να φανταστώ αυτή τη προφορά και τον τονισμό στ´αρχαια ελληνικά. Έχετε κανένα video η audio μ´αυτη τη προφορά;
@@Panemorphy ευχαριστω, οχι δεν εχω δει καποιο βιντεο με την κανονικη προφορα. Όλοι το μπερδευουν με το σημερινο ου ή το ü, ενω ειναι ξεκαθαρα ημιφωνο.
Im sorry but this is erasmian pronunciation which i believe is wrong. There is not enough proof about the validity of it and the greek language is latinised that way. Erasmus himshelf didnt use it and it was all about only the attic dialect of 5th century BC.
This speaker is terrible, but that's because he's not doing the real reconstructed pronunciacion. Look up the channel Podium Arts - he is a native speaker of modern Greek who does the reconstructed (not erasmian) pronunciacion more or less correctly. The erasmian pronunciacion is very different from the modern reconstruction of ancient greek phonology, of which we are 99% certain.
@@hmldjr Probably but for sure not like the renaissance Germanic or Latin speakers or modern English speakers. Just check out "Plato Cratylus (418c)" and you 'll see why!
“…The Error of Erasmus From the introduction of Greek learning to the West in the XIII-XIVth century and until the beginning of the XVIth century, Greek was universally pronounced in the manner in which Greeks pronounce it today. In 1528 the Humanist scholar Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam, who for a time happened to live in Leuven, in the Low Countries, composed a Dialogue in Latin between a bear and a lion 3, in which he set forth a novel way of pronouncing Greek, which has since come to be called the Erasmian pronunciation of Greek, or Etacism, and to be regarded by its proponents as the scientific pronunciation of Greek. The incentive to write this book came from a practical joke that was played on Erasmus by the Swiss scholar Henricus (Loritus of Glarus, hence) Glareanus. Glareanus, who had arrived from Paris, met Erasmus who, being inordinately fond of novelties and credulous, was eager to learn what was latest in the City of Lights; he told him that certain Greek scholars had arrived in Paris who pronounced Greek in a different fashion than the one received in Europe, and proceeded to give him an account of the new pronunciation. There was a verisimilitude in the new suggestions inasmuch as the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of ‘I’. Moreover, Latin transliterated e.g. the η of the second syllable of έκκλησία with ε (i.e. ecclesia ) rather than with i (i.e. ekklisia.), as the η is pronounced by the Greeks 4. In writing this dialogue Erasmus was motivated by an obvious interest in factual truth, and he initiated his novel pronunciation in the belief that it was actually used by Greeks. Not wishing to be anticipated, he immediately composed his Dialogus. Later, however, he found out the trick played on him, so he desisted from using the pronunciation he had concocted, abiding by the received pronunciation (and enjoined his closest friends to do the same), as did also his opponent Johannes Reuchlin and the latter’s nephew Philip Melanchthon as well as Martin Luther. But the "news" spread like wild fire, and after centuries of struggle with the traditional pronunciation, Erasmus’s error finally succeeded in ousting the Greek pronunciation of Greek and in establishing itself in all countries outside Greece (apart from a few exceptions) 5. This Erasmian pronunciation claims to represent a united system of pronunciation, but this is so only theoretically; in actual practice Greek is pronounced in conformity to German, English, French and so on, according to the mother tongue of the speaker 6 (hence in our international New Testament conferences we are often conscious of a Babel-like experience when trying to figure out which Greek word the speaker was trying to pronounce) -although a Finnish New Testament scholar once assured me that his pronunciation of Greek was identical with that of Socrates and Plato! This state of affairs, naturally, robs the Erasmian pronunciation of the right to being called scientific, hence the so-called scientific pronunciation of Greek is -to paraphrase Hirsch’s phrase 7- nothing but a chaotic democracy of un-Greek pronunciations of Greek, each conceived according to what is deemed natural in the speaker’s own tongue…”-Chrys C. Caragounis, The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek, 153-154 References: 3 De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronunciatione dialogus (Basiliae: Frobenius 1528). 4 Speculations along similar lines had been made earlier by the Spaniard Antonio of Lebrixa, the Venice printer Aldus Manutius, and the Italian Girolamo (Hieronymus) Aleander. 5 The story of the fraud (fraude) to which Erasmus fell victim is related in an account dated 27 October 1569, and cited in one of the fervent supporters of Erasmianism, in Gerardi Ioannis Vossii, Aristarchus, sive de arte Grammatica libri septem etc., (Amstelædami: I. Blaev 1635, Editio secunda 1662) 106f. My thanks are hereby due to de heer Martin Engels, Conservator of the Provinciale Bibliotheek van Friesland at Leeuwarden, Netherlands, who kindly send me photocopies of the relevant pages of this book. 6 This holds true also of the theorists. Cf., for example, the precepts of German theorists (e.g. F. Blass, E. Schwyzer) with those of American and British theorists (e.g. E. H. Sturtevant, W. S. Allen). 7 E. Hirsch, Validity in Interpretation (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1967) 5.
Just a tip, the letter "υ, Υ" in Greek (and Ancient Greek I believe) is pronounced as the English letter "E" and is some cases "V" therefore the correct pronunciation of the verb "λύομεν" would be lee-o-men and not loo-o-men.
In Ancient Greek it was pronounced like the French 'u' or German 'ü' (/y/ if you know IPA), so actually between the 'ee' and 'oo' sounds, he doesn't seem to be attempting the classical pronunciation in this video though
This speaker is terrible, but that's because he's not doing the real reconstructed pronunciacion. Look up the channel Podium Arts - he is a native speaker of modern Greek who does the reconstructed (not erasmian) pronunciacion more or less correctly.
Why don’t you people learn to pronounce Greek properly? I can’t imagine anyone really learns any Greek this way. It is λήγουσα, παραλήγουσα, προπαραληγουσα.
Correct. *Too much talking in this video* and not enough verbal examples. This is why people fall asleep in Language classes. My cousin is much better at music theory than I. But, I'm the better player.
![Learn Ancient Greek: Introduction to Accents [SUB ESP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z8gTz051euU/mqdefault.jpg)
I wish class could always start with that dramatic music.
Outstanding video. Logical presentation, clear voice, useful slides, helpful explanations. I hope you produce many more videos.
increadibly informative. im working the greek agora in the texas renissance festival i appreciate the time you put into this
This was very well done! Thank you! It's now clear!
Thank you. Very well explained. God bless you.
Thank you so much! Well explained 🙏🙏🙏
It's ironic that the video starts by saying that ancient Greek has a pitch accent, and then the speaker never (or rarely) uses the pitch indicated, uses a stress accent instead, and never gives the vowels their proper quantity or quality. A long vowel in ancient Greek is a different from a short vowel in DURATION, not in quality. A long vowel is roughly twice as long (two feet or moras) as its short vowel counterpart (of one foot or mora). Thus, η is the same sound as ε, but roughly twice as long in duration. The same is true of ω and ο. If one then understands that an accent cannot fall back further than three or four moras or feet (with some notable exceptions involving long vowels in the penultima), the whole issue of accenting becomes much easier to understand.
The pitches are not that dramatic, and there is no excuse not to use them for ancient Greek. Aristotle even noted that some people thought that the pitches could be eliminated completely (which is probably why they eventually were eliminated in later centuries in favor of a stress accent). Aristotle did not agree with that view because a wrong pitch or absence of pitch in the spoken language could change the meaning of a word. The acute was a rising pitch of one foot or mora; the grave a lowering or flattening pitch of one mora or foot in length, and a circumflex is a rising then lowering pitch over two feet or moras. If you don't use these pitches with accurate timing, ancient Greek poetry loses its rhythmic structure.
By the way, the letter υ is not pronounced like the sound "oo" in English. it is a front rounded vowel pronounced like the ü in über or the u in the French word "fut." The Greeks came up with the diphthong ΟΥ (ου) to render the sound "oo." Furthermore, ο is not pronounced like α. It is pronounced o, just like ω, only shorter in duration.
This is the trouble with the Erasmian system. It only gets it half-right with regard to ancient (classical) Greek, and not at all correct for Koine Greek (which entirely lost pitch accent and the distinction between long and short vowels in pronunciation).
I just found this video and saw this comment, and it would have been much more helpful if you could have linked at least a single video with correct prounciation.
John Wadsworth Your comment is accurate. I used to read the descriptions of ancient Greek system and always wonder how people are assuming to determine it's correct pronunciation or not. They should study it at least. I know Koine Greek is different with Attic. Depending on so-called "Greek New Testament study" is kinda entrap. Pronunciations used to change through the centuries and I as frequent traveler do not so care about dialects if it is identical for us locals. Speaking "Kai" or "Kie" is not so important. So many anti-Erasmian-fundamentalists even don't have the knowledge of basic grammar of ancient Greek and presume this is correct pronunciation or not. I think that'd be dangerous. Moreover, being modern Greek native speakers does not mean that they can grasp ancient Greek. The same is other languages. For example, if I found a Japanese who said that he/she can understand perfectly ancient Japanese without dictionary, I'd 100% suspect and determine he/she is a liar.
John Wadsworth Your point of view is found also in Balkanian languages (so-called Yugoslovenski). The Pitch changes the meaning (Ex: Grad). It's the Same spelling. Japanese language also.
@@tomkot search on youtube the channel, "podium arts" and "polymathy" or his personal channel "scipiomartianus" (his greek videos, mainly he does latin)
@@tomkot See the videos by Ioannis Stratakis!
Clearly explained. Thank you!
Thanks, noted down.
Thank you so much 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Ancient greek is awesome. Thank you for demonstrating it.
Did you know that αι and οι used to have a letter as a whole in Linear B? That's strange, given that linear characters were about either a Vowel or a consonant and a vowel.
Hey, don't forget the exception's exception: αι and οι are long at the end of a word if it's in optative mood 😂😂😂
Very useful
Very usefull thanks a lot
I feel like I'm in my old Portuguese classes back in school. How amazing similarities we have with the greek language!
I think it is the greatest mistake in teaching Ancient Greek that the accents are not really PRONOUNCED. If you learn to pronounce them along with each new word you learn, half of the big problem is gone...
Nice video. One thing I noticed 13:40 the syllables are η-με-ρα
I did my secondary schooling in Greece and we were never really taught about the different accents having different sounds. That crazy.
Very good.
Do you have a video of exercises relating to accents?
HISTORICAL GREEK PRONUNCIATION by Dr Philemon Zachariou.
pritty confiúsing !
As I remember, the grave accent does not indicate falling tone in Ancient Greek. Circumflex indicate a falling tone instead. Grave accent means a lighter rise than the acute.
Can you do other Greek Diacritics, like the Prosgegrammeni, or Ypogegrammeni? The acute in Greek is called "Tonos" and the grave is called a "Varia." Some suggestions.
The acute in Greek is called "Oxeia". " Tonos" is the name of the stress mark in the monotonic system.
Do you pronounce the words with 'pitch accent'?
Let's say that there is a word with 4 syllables and the second is accented. Do you assume that the pitch is
low-high-high-high,
low-high-low-low or something else?
low-high-low-low
So unfortunately most classicists don't really understand much about how pitch accent works functionally/how to pronounce it. Ancient Greek phonology is based on the mora rather than the syllable (you can find explanations online of the difference), and when a mora is accented it means that there is a drop in pitch in the following mora, not necessarily that the accented mora is the only high mora. So, if you have a four mora word and the second is accented, the following the accented mora there must be a drop in pitch. Whether or not the first mora is as high or lower than the accented mora actually doesn't matter. So it could be H-H-L-L or L-H-L-L. I suggest looking up explanations of Japanese pitch accent because it's actually a nearly identical system to ancient Greek.
I think these rules would be simpler if you counted long vowels as two syllables.
True, but greeks themselves didn't think of them as two syllables. They are more precisely two morae.
It's funny! The accentuation of the Greek uses the terms "antepenultima", "penultima" and "ultima" just the same the Spanish language accentuation system uses (antepenúltima, penúltima and última properly written in Spansh). It also, counts the syllables in the same way. The difference is that the Spanish accent marks the stressed syllable instead of its length.
You know, it is just because these are Latin terms, and both Ancient (Modern too) Greek and Spanish have/had accent which can/could occur in three different positions... Nevertheless, ancient Greeks did not use these terms, it is a contemporary invention. So it is not so strange as it may look at the first sight.
@@mareksagrak9527 Good answer! Thank you!
Amazing video although I found it funny that you used the Spartan alternative θάλαττα! I use the Athenian, θάλασσα!
Why did you refer to the syllables as ultima, penultima and antepenultima and not with their Greek terms λήγουσα, παραλήγουσα and προπαραλήγουσα
In English teaching of classical Greek we traditionally refer to accent positions by these terms: oxytone = acute on last syllable; paroxytone = acute on penultimate; proparoxytone = acute on antepenultimate; perispomenon = circumflex on last syllable; properispomenon = circumflex on antepenultimate; barytone = grave on last syllable. That covers everything.
Just looked up barytone and Wikipedia contradicts me. You live and learn...
erasmian pronunciation sounds funny to us Greeks. This can't be right, at least to some extend
@Fashy Goy Πιστευω ότι η Ερασμιακή εφευρεθηκε ούτως ώστε Αγγλοι και Γερμανοί λόγιοι να μπορουν να ακολουθησουν τις μελέτες της Καινης Διαθηκης στην κοινή αρχαία ελληνική χωρίς να ακούγονται σαν καθυστερημένοι ανεπίσημα, αλλα τουλάχιστον επισήμως. Αυτό γιατί δεν εχουν ευκολα καποιους ήχους όπως το μαλακό γγ ή σε καποιες περιπτώσεις γ (gh)+συμφωνο και φυσικά προτιμουσαν να ταυτιζουν την σειρα του αλφαβητου (β ως λατινικό b ηχο, δ ως d ηχο), ενώ παραλληλα τους ηταν πιο ευκολο να ακολουθουν την λατινική μεταφορα όπου πχ τα περισσότερα γ μεταφερθηκαν ως g καθως τους ηταν πιο ευκολο από το να αρχίζουν οι λεξεις με ημισυφωνα όπως το y ή w (το οποιο προφερεται από τα χείλια). Βεβαια το ελληνικό υ όντως προφεροταν σαν υψιφωνο ου και πιθανότατα όντως εως κ την κλασσική εποχή τα ει αι οι κλπ είχαν καπως διαχωριστική προφορα, αλλά πολύ πιο γρηγορα από ότι τα προφερουν οι ερασμιοι. Γι' αυτό και μεταλλάχθηκαν αργοτερα. Στην πραγματικότητα όμως κανεις δεν ξερει πως προφέρονταν ορισμενα γραμματα, ουτε καν αν συγκριθουν με άλλες διασκευασμενες γλώσσες της εποχης όπως τα Λατινικά. Εχουμε πολλα παραδείγματα που αντικρουουν την ερασμική αποψη, καθως και πολλα παραδείγματα ονομάτων και ηχων που μεταφέρονται διαφορετικά από γλωσσα σε γλωσσα και φωνητικά και γραμματικά. Αν θες δωσε καποιο παράδειγμα Ποντιακών σε συγκριση με την αρχαία Ιωνική
@Fashy Goy ευχαριστώ, παντως ποιος ξερει αν πρόκειται για ιδίωμα ή αν όντως μεταφερθηκαν έτσι από την αρχαία εποχη και αν ναι, από πότε ισχύουν. Γιατι και αυτοί δεν είμαστε σίγουροι αν ερχονταν σε επαφη για να επηρεάζονται από τις εκάστοτε αλλαγες. Γιατι κ το νυφε δεν φαινεται να το λενε Νυ(ph)ε. Τουλάχιστον στα παραδείγματα σου δεν βλέπω αυτό που μας απωθεί, δηλαδή τα απεχθή b, g, d & j). Και δεν βλέπω να κρατησαν και το υ (Νούφε), το οποίο επίσης ξενίζει κ καλώς αλλαξε στο βυζαντιο
@@TMPOUZI Παιδιά είστε και οι δύο πολύ λάθος στο θέμα. Απλά ψάξτε το κανάλι Podium-Arts και ακούστε την ανακατασκευασμένη αρχαία ελληνική προφορά με τα πιο σύγχρονα στοιχεία που διαθέτουν οι σχετικοί ιστορικοί γλωσσολόγοι. Η ερασμιακή προφορά μπορεί να σας ξενίζει, όμως έχει κάποια σωστά στοιχεία, αλλά και αυτή ωχριά μπροστά στο τέρας της ανακατασκευασμένης προφοράς, η οποία είναι τόσο περίπλοκη που δεν μπορώ καν να πω μία λέξη χωρίς να κάνω λάθος. Ο τύπος στα βίντεο του καναλιού που ανέφερα είναι Έλληνας και έχει κάνει τρομερή δουλειά την οποία σας συστήνω ανεπιφύλακτα.
TL;DR: η ερασμιακή προφορά είναι ανακριβής, αλλά η πραγματικότητα είναι ακόμη πιο απίστευτη.
@@karlpoppins Τρίχες κατσαρές! Οι Έλληνες, μέσα στο πέρασμα των αιώνων αποφάσισαν την προφορά της γλώσσας τους. Είναι σημαντικό για τους γλωσσολόγους να ερευνούν την προφορά, αλλά για τον έλληνα της εποχής μας το να επιμένεις να μάθει τα αρχαία με την προφορά της αρχαίας εποχής είναι βλακεία.
@@acstamos Έλλην ή μη, αν θες να διαβάσεις αρχαιοελληνική ποίηση στο σωστό μέτρο πρέπει να τη διαβάσεις με την αρχαία προφορά. Για τους μαθητές στο σχολείο αυτό ίσως να μην είναι σημαντικό, αλλά θα πρέπει τουλάχιστον να διδάσκονται ποια είναι αυτή η προφορά, και να έρχονται σε επαφή με αυτήν έστω μία-δύο φορές, ώστε να γνωρίζουν πώς έχει αλλάξει η γλώσσα μας σε βάθος χρόνου και να μην αναπαράγουν ανακρίβειες όπως αυτές του τύπου που έγραψε το αρχικό σχόλιο.
To the disagreement about the accents: it is important to remember that there are no unanimity among scholars
upon the general character of the accents. But there are many opinion that hold they are stress-accents often accompanied by tonal shifts. Greek and Latin are dead languages, ie. they haven't been spoken in a living culture for quite a while now, so clearly we cannot know for sure.
Sorry, but the ancient Greek pronunciation of η (the letter eta) is like the "ai" in wait and the ancient Greek pronunciation of the diphthong αι (alpha iota) is like the "ai" in aisle.
Excellent video.
Why am i watching this when i already speak Greek 😂😂
Long and short vowels exist only in metrical speech, such as song and poems. Ordinary speaking was straight. As we can read in homer the tones are completely random, depending on the emphasises which the poet wanted to give. Long and short vowels are a later misunderstanding of the scripts.
It's not LOO-o-meh, it's LEE-o-meh.
thank you
The pronantiation is problematic. at 4:42 the speaker instead of reading λύομεν (ly-o-men, the stress goes to the first sylable, which meens we solve)
he says λούομεν ( lu-o-men, which means we shower). As a Greek native speaker I find it very hard not only to hear but also understand when someone tries to speak ancient Greek using erasmian pronantiation, whithout taking into consideration how for example the diphthongs, especialy double vowels, are pronounced. This kind of pronantiation has no rythm and no harmony in it.
Λυομεν is pronounced ljumen not looomain.
tiktaktik tamtamtam are you sure? As a Greek myself I would read the word as leeomain. Is there something I am missing?
@@Panemorphy το υ ειναι ημιφωνο στα αρχαια (οχι παντα αλλα στις περισσοτερες διαλεκτους) δηλαδη ακουγεται σαν γιου, βου, γου, ου, σου. Δεν εχει σταθερη προφορα οπως και το ιωτα. Σημερα το λεμε με τον ηχο που οι αρχαιοι ειχαν για το Ε/εψιλον. Γι αυτο το υ παντα δασυνεται. π.χ. η λέξη υετός σημαίνει υγρασια και ειναι η ιδια λεξη με την αγγλικη λεξη sweat που σημαινει ιδρώτας. Το δασυνόμενο υ στις αλλες γλωσσες γραφτηκε σαν σου, γιου, σβ και παρομοια. Οι λεξεις sub, super ειναι οι ιδιες με τις υπο, υπερ. Η αρχαια του προφορα (ή χρηση καλυτερα) έχει διατηρηθει εν μερει στα αυ-, ευ-. Το ου ακουγοταν σαν ουβ ή ουj ή βγιου στα αρχαια αναλογα με τη θεση του μεσα στη λέξη, μεχρι που αποσιωπηθηκε τελειως το υ και εμεινε το ου μονο με την αρχαια προφορα του Ο/ομικρον που ειναι ου οταν χρησιμοποιηται σαν φωνηεν και β οταν χρησιμοποιηται σαν συμφωνο. π.χ. η λέξη οίνος προφεροταν βίνους ή γουίνους. Γι αυτο και οι λατινικες λεξεις που προερχονται απο τα ελληνικα στη θεση του O εχουν V.
tiktaktik tamtamtam wow καταπληκτική εξήγηση. Σας ευχαριστώ. Το μόνο πράγμα είναι ότι είναι λίγο δισκολο να φανταστώ αυτή τη προφορά και τον τονισμό στ´αρχαια ελληνικά. Έχετε κανένα video η audio μ´αυτη τη προφορά;
@@Panemorphy ευχαριστω, οχι δεν εχω δει καποιο βιντεο με την κανονικη προφορα. Όλοι το μπερδευουν με το σημερινο ου ή το ü, ενω ειναι ξεκαθαρα ημιφωνο.
@@Panemorphy czcams.com/video/Q5FHZx0oOqs/video.html
Im sorry but this is erasmian pronunciation which i believe is wrong. There is not enough proof about the validity of it and the greek language is latinised that way. Erasmus himshelf didnt use it and it was all about only the attic dialect of 5th century BC.
The ancients didn't pronounce it like modern greek.
This speaker is terrible, but that's because he's not doing the real reconstructed pronunciacion. Look up the channel Podium Arts - he is a native speaker of modern Greek who does the reconstructed (not erasmian) pronunciacion more or less correctly. The erasmian pronunciacion is very different from the modern reconstruction of ancient greek phonology, of which we are 99% certain.
@@hmldjr Probably but for sure not like the renaissance Germanic or Latin speakers or modern English speakers. Just check out "Plato Cratylus (418c)" and you 'll see why!
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045 That's true too they lose the rhythm because they don't have the same rhythm in their languages.
“…The Error of Erasmus
From the introduction of Greek learning to the West in the XIII-XIVth century and until the beginning of the XVIth century, Greek was universally pronounced in the manner in which Greeks pronounce it today. In 1528 the Humanist scholar Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam, who for a time happened to live in Leuven, in the Low Countries, composed a Dialogue in Latin between a bear and a lion 3, in which he set forth a novel way of pronouncing Greek, which has since come to be called the Erasmian pronunciation of Greek, or Etacism, and to be regarded by its proponents as the scientific pronunciation of Greek. The incentive to write this book came from a practical joke that was played on Erasmus by the Swiss scholar Henricus (Loritus of Glarus, hence) Glareanus. Glareanus, who had arrived from Paris, met Erasmus who, being inordinately fond of novelties and credulous, was eager to learn what was latest in the City of Lights; he told him that certain Greek scholars had arrived in Paris who pronounced Greek in a different fashion than the one received in Europe, and proceeded to give him an account of the new pronunciation. There was a verisimilitude in the new suggestions inasmuch as the Greeks gave to several letters the sound of ‘I’. Moreover, Latin transliterated e.g. the η of the second syllable of έκκλησία with ε (i.e. ecclesia ) rather than with i (i.e. ekklisia.), as the η is pronounced by the Greeks 4. In writing this dialogue Erasmus was motivated by an obvious interest in factual truth, and he initiated his novel pronunciation in the belief that it was actually used by Greeks. Not wishing to be anticipated, he immediately composed his Dialogus. Later, however, he found out the trick played on him, so he desisted from using the pronunciation he had concocted, abiding by the received pronunciation (and enjoined his closest friends to do the same), as did also his opponent Johannes Reuchlin and the latter’s nephew Philip Melanchthon as well as Martin Luther. But the "news" spread like wild fire, and after centuries of struggle with the traditional pronunciation, Erasmus’s error finally succeeded in ousting the Greek pronunciation of Greek and in establishing itself in all countries outside Greece (apart from a few exceptions) 5.
This Erasmian pronunciation claims to represent a united system of pronunciation, but this is so only theoretically; in actual practice Greek is pronounced in conformity to German, English, French and so on, according to the mother tongue of the speaker 6 (hence in our international New Testament conferences we are often conscious of a Babel-like experience when trying to figure out which Greek word the speaker was trying to pronounce) -although a Finnish New Testament scholar once assured me that his pronunciation of Greek was identical with that of Socrates and Plato! This state of affairs, naturally, robs the Erasmian pronunciation of the right to being called scientific, hence the so-called scientific pronunciation of Greek is -to paraphrase Hirsch’s phrase 7- nothing but a chaotic democracy of un-Greek pronunciations of Greek, each conceived according to what is deemed natural in the speaker’s own tongue…”-Chrys C. Caragounis, The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek, 153-154
References:
3 De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronunciatione dialogus (Basiliae: Frobenius 1528).
4 Speculations along similar lines had been made earlier by the Spaniard Antonio of Lebrixa, the Venice printer Aldus Manutius, and the Italian Girolamo (Hieronymus) Aleander.
5 The story of the fraud (fraude) to which Erasmus fell victim is related in an account dated 27 October 1569, and cited in one of the fervent supporters of Erasmianism, in Gerardi Ioannis Vossii, Aristarchus, sive de arte Grammatica libri septem etc., (Amstelædami: I. Blaev 1635, Editio secunda 1662) 106f. My thanks are hereby due to de heer Martin Engels, Conservator of the Provinciale Bibliotheek van Friesland at Leeuwarden, Netherlands, who kindly send me photocopies of the relevant pages of this book.
6 This holds true also of the theorists. Cf., for example, the precepts of German theorists (e.g. F. Blass, E. Schwyzer) with those of American and British theorists (e.g. E. H. Sturtevant, W. S. Allen).
7 E. Hirsch, Validity in Interpretation (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1967) 5.
4:05 what studies???
What the hell are you talking about? you don't know me!
You need to know this only if you plan to write a book in Ancient Greek.
Just a tip, the letter "υ, Υ" in Greek (and Ancient Greek I believe) is pronounced as the English letter "E" and is some cases "V" therefore the correct pronunciation of the verb "λύομεν" would be lee-o-men and not loo-o-men.
In Ancient Greek it was pronounced like the French 'u' or German 'ü' (/y/ if you know IPA), so actually between the 'ee' and 'oo' sounds, he doesn't seem to be attempting the classical pronunciation in this video though
Upsilion didn't take the EE sound until the 11th century.
Αργώ να μάθω να μιλάω σωστά τα αρχαία, να ξέρεις άμα γνωρίζεις μόνο αρχαία σχολείου, ξεχασε τα.
@@rw42000 See the videos by Dr Philemon Zachariou Historical Greek Pronunciation.
it is better to listen a modern greek speaking his or her ancient language than follow so strictly erasmian theories
This has nothing to do with Erasmus.
This speaker is terrible, but that's because he's not doing the real reconstructed pronunciacion. Look up the channel Podium Arts - he is a native speaker of modern Greek who does the reconstructed (not erasmian) pronunciacion more or less correctly.
Not every Koine reconstruction is Erasmian. You are simply ignorant.
Why don’t you people learn to pronounce Greek properly? I can’t imagine anyone really learns any Greek this way. It is λήγουσα, παραλήγουσα, προπαραληγουσα.
Correct. *Too much talking in this video* and not enough verbal examples. This is why people fall asleep in Language classes. My cousin is much better at music theory than I. But, I'm the better player.
Why study this on details when we don't write ancient Greek? We learn it only to read it. In modern Greek we use one accent to mark the stress.
Πρόκειται γιὰ μεγάλο λάθος· προτιμῶ τὴν ἱστορικὴ γραφή, ὄχι τὴν πολιτική. Τοῦτο διότι ἡ γλῶσσα πρέπει νὰ ἐξηγεῖται ἐν τῷ συνόλῳ καὶ ὄχι νὰ κολλᾶμε στὸ παρόν της. Οὐκ ἔστι τυχαία ἡ σημερινή μας ἔνδεια· αὐτὸ διότι ἔχουμε ἀποκοπεῖ ἀπὸ τὴν ἱστορία μας.
@@damongeo840 Είναι "ούκ έστιν" ή "δεν είναι", μισό μισό δεν γίνεται :) και συμφωνώ με τα υπόλοιπα που γράφεις!
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045, χαίρετε!
• Γιὰ πολυτονικὸ στὸ κινητό, χρησιμοποιῶ τὴν παρακάτω ἐφαρμογή· czcams.com/video/VU_3vbZnIgE/video.html.
• Γιὰ πολυτονικὸ στὸν ὑπολογιστή· czcams.com/video/DPkf4Nvev98/video.html
@@damongeo840 Καλησπέρα και ευχαριστώ!
Έχω λόγω ηλικίας διδαχθεί το πολυτονικό, απλά δεν το χρησιμοποιώ συχνά τα τελευταία χρόνια.
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045, παρακαλῶ!
Εἶμαι 26 ἐτῶν καὶ χρησιμοποιῶ ἀποκλειστικὰ τὴν ἱστορικὴν ὀρθογραφίαν τῆς γλώσσης μας-ἀκόμη καὶ τὶς ἐργασίες τοῦ μεταπτυχιακοῦ τὶς συνἐταξα χρήσει τῆς ἱστορικῆς ὀρθογραφίας.