Homage Watch Brands Ranked Best To Worst: Pagani, San Martin, Islander, WMT, Seiko, Steinhart & More
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2023
- In this month's #WatchTalk episode, I'm once again joined by Marc Frankel of Long Island Watch for a chat featuring his expert engineering insight, reactions, and opinion on the most popular homage watch brands. We rank them from best to worst, and identify the eight key types of homage watch, as well as discussing what defines a homage watch, which ones we recommend, which we'd personally buy, those we avoid, and why. In this video, we take a look at a variety of watch brands including Pagani, San Martin, Islander, WMT, Invicta, Dan Henry, Steinhart, Squale, Seiko, Casio, and more. What do you think about homage brands, and what defines them? Please share in the comments!
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Thank you for watching The Urban Gentry channel, home of the #wristwatchcheck and #seikosaturday! Check out my other videos for more watch and lifestyle content.
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Great video educational right from the start! I had no idea about the UG and the PP Ellipse. Really entertaining and a fun topic 🙌
Thank you so much, that means a lot to me to hear that.
If you want to find out more about the UG White Shadow and in case you missed it, here you go:
czcams.com/video/9dSUA0JbkDg/video.html
Onwards, upwards and best regards!
TGV
Thank you 🙌 I will check it out I confess I have already been on Chrono 24 after this 😅
Y’all R so funnel & informational, that coming from budget watch collector ‼️🥴😎
I enjoy Pagani and Steeldive for being able to enjoy designs I'd never be able to access or, yes, afford. As a newer watch collector who initially fell in love with Casio, they've been awesome for me. Such terrific value, and a great opportunity to learn history. My Steeldive Captain Willard homage is one of my absolute favorite watches.
Same here. I have Steeldive SD1953 and absolutely love it. I'll never own the Rolex Submariner because it cost more than mine and my girlfriend cars. But to get just the touch of experience for a 100€ is enough for me. It doesn't says Rolex on the dial, and Rolex never lost me as client because of it, because I never was in the first place, and the only people that can see what you wearing is other enthusiasts like us. It gives me nice feeling because it well made and it has mechanical Seiko nh35 movement.
Stick with casios
I've tried two Pagani watches and I'm satisfied. It's mostly a good way of trying on the look of a more costly watch over time. When you try on a Speedy at the boutique you don't get to explore every nuance and light play of the case design. If you can find a decent homage watch, you'll be able to experiment for as long as you wish.
Same here with my Tuna and Willard Steeldive homages. Absolutely amazing, for 80-90 USD and NOT only.
Fake
San Martin and Steeldive are excellent quality watches and both have original designs available as well.
Quite right. I own 2 Steeldives (Tuna and Willard homages). Quality is outstanding: 316L steel, saphire, NH35 movement, perfect alignments, screw down crown, excellent straps or bracelet - everything for around 87 USD!! No doubt that Steinhart offers very good quality as well, but the price difference...................
@@codrupaun8070 I'd add Cronos, Borman, Thorn, and Seestern/Sugess to the list. As well, Addiesdive seems a close sister brand to Steeldive and is often priced just below SD.
Don't forget the Loreo Submarino Diver.
Top 3 for me have always been Cronos, San Martin & Steinhart... great value watches
What do you think about the Cronos l6005 or alternatively the l6015?
I ended up having to watch this over a few sittings. It was fascinating to see how you broke a complex and controversial issue into constitute parts. No-one has really tried to do that.
For me, I think the moonlighting category actually encompasses a majority of the brands discussed. Look at San Martin as an example, they have moved into original design in a similar path as Longislandwatch.
I think it is a relatively easily understood route. Start off with homages, build a baseline of quality and reliability. Build and establish your business and then move into more original designs.
Interesting point, that didn’t occur to me 🤔
Great comment that is true.
Pagani are awesome for the price and use Seiko movements. Got 3 and never had an issue with reliability, quality control, alignment etc. Yet more expensive brands I've had problems with.
Great to hear that. You are very lucky!
Enjoy and thank you for sharing,
Best regards,
TGV
Anecdotal.
I've got 6-7 Pagani's as part of my 60 watch collection that also includes luxury Swiss pieces(Tag, JLC, Hamilton), plus Seiko, Orient, Citizen, Casio, Timex, Vostok, 2 San Martins, Steeldives, Seesterns etc.
And I still love the Pagani's and have had no issues with any of them - they still get A LOT of wear without worrying if something happens to them.
I know Pagani's are not great, and for those who hate homages I get the dislike, but they are VERY good value for money with specs, decent movement and can give someone unattainable designs for a fraction of the price. I see them as good entry level watches .. as all of our collections evolve so does the quality and prices of the pieces we collect.
What Vostok ?
I’ve only had 1 Pagani and it actually felt low quality
I am undoubtedly against blatant copies and fakes. But the clear homage companies like Pagani or even San Martin and Invicta provide amazing value for the money to people who may never be able to afford the real deal. AND more importantly, they may be the spark that ignites someone’s interest into this wonderful world of watches and horology. My love was sparked from James Bond, my first watch was a blue faced fossil that 6-7 year old me thought looked just like Bonds at the time.
I would not put invicta and Pagani on a same category. Invicta have some homage models, but it's Not a homage company, it has Roots from 1837.
Invicta is worse, because its pretending to have heritage when it doesn't@@Rippeee . Someone brought the name of a Swiss heritage brand and is slapping it on Chinese swiss homage watches.
@@RippeeeInvicta is similar to Thomas Earnshaw watches. Someone buys a derelict brand and starts producing cheap watches.
I own more than a few luxury watches (e.g., Rolex, Glashutte, Breitling) and I also enjoy collecting and wearing watches from the likes of Steeldive, Cronos, San Martin, Thorn, Seestern. I find that expensive luxury brands are not always convenient to wear in certain environments and less suitable for everyday tool-watch activities. I can wear a Steeldive anywhere...and am less likely to "lose an arm" over it (both figuratively AND physically).
fake is no protection unfortunately @@jb678901
TGV and Marc… really enjoyed the video chaps. The transparency and the good humor with Marc and his brand was refreshing. Marc is such a humble and real guy. TGV, your deep dive scoring system was the most comprehensive way of looking at homages. I never even considered some of your points. Learned a bunch. Thanks guys.
🙌🙌🙌 Thank you so much Joe, you are kind and considerate as always. Have a great rest of your week.
Best regards,
TGV
Always a treat when you guys chat! And as someone who has more than a few of the watches from brands you describe in my collection it was educational. Thanks and look forward to the next time!
Thank you so much TGV for another wonderful discussion with Mark! I really enjoyed your perspectives and logic behind your watch rating discussion! I also really enjoyed your openminded perspective and willness to explore any brand and evaluate it deeply no matter the price or class! Stay healthy and wonderful as always! (Nick L) 🦖🦖🦖🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇮🇹🇮🇹🇮🇹👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I’ve brought several San Martins which could be classed as Tudor homages of the BB, they actually are better to wear as slimmer than the original. The finish and bracket much better than Seiko at £500 - £750 mark. The movement fitter are the ETA clone called the PT5000 which have all been under + or - 5 sec . Obviously no match for an original Tudor but if you want the look without the outlay.
I actually opt for the San Martin's utilizing Seiko movements as it makes them that much easier to service and enjoy long-term. Yeah, you're not getting the accuracy of the swiss movement clones, but much cheaper to fix should any issues occur out of warranty. GREAT watches all around.
Could not agree more. At this point they are offering good value. Don't know how long this would last however.
buy a Tudor mate
TGV, you really are an artist. I remember hearing about people going to the old James Bond movies just to see the intros because of how beautiful and creative they are. Your old intro was excellent, as is this new one. It suits you and and the general tone of the channel beautifully.
Good evening TGV! Looking forward for this video! It's always a treat for us viewers when you and Marc are having a conversation on watch topics. Best regards!
Evening Heiko! Enjoy and chin chin 🥂😎 Thank you as always.
Best regards to you too!
T.
Excellent video gents! I began my watch journey as a bit of a snob. Not only would I not buy digital, I wouldn't buy quartz analogue. No longer. My first watches were Seiko classics, Orient, Tissot, Longines and my most expensive, my Omega Seamaster. Now, I have Casio, G-Shock, microbrands AND I got some Ali Express watches including a Heimdallr Monster NH36, with a red dial and sapphire crystal, I have the original but Seiko never made red. Same with Tuna, as well as the original I have yellow dial Steeldive Tuna as Seiko never made the colour either. Both suitable for diving, I tried both. Also a Pagani. I bought the plastic Mission to Uranus Moonswatch as a summer watch, I got a blue wrist, a lost pusher, scratched glass, frayed strap. Ended up getting my money back only because of the blue wrist. They would have blamed me for the other things. I felt a bit foolish having bought it, like an adult wearing a child's watch. So...I got the stainless steel Pagani version with sapphire crystal, solid link bracelet, milled clasp, Seiko VK63 mecaquartz movement, for around $100 including import tax etc. It's 100 times better for less than half the price and you don't feel like an idiot wearing it. It's not a clone, because it's on a much higher level of quality than the plastic original. I have gone from watch snob to real watch enthusiast who never turns his nose up to quality commensurate with price. The two divers are different because Seiko never made the colours, or put sapphire on them come to think of it. Lol. Plus as Seiko have no problem selling their movements to these firms it gives them more acceptability.
Its always great seeing the great collaboration of you... TGV, Marc, and Hugo. As a watch collector I personally would buy a watch that is widely recognized. Cheers!
Have a Steeldive and a San Martin, both incredible. Have lots of other non homage watches, my Steeldive and San Martin however are better made than some of my non homage watches!
I just bought a Skmei Casioak homage lol.
@@brandonlanois1734 Ironically I suppose?
@@Horizontalvertigo yep
I have an Addiesdive bronze Willard that’s better than the original for $145
I never thought I'd hear TGV say the words "Pagani Design", "San Martin", and "Steeldive"! The Steeldive SD1970 is really good, I have it and it's awesome value for money. I have a Seiko King Turtle and I'd say it holds up pretty well against it. Not as good, of course, but it's close, and at around $75-90 it's not even in the same ballpark price wise.
San Martin is probably the king of Ali Express.
So excited for another episode of watch talk with Marc! 🥂 TGV!
Thank you Alex! 😎🙏🥂
Best regards,
TGV
Nice to see a genuine and adult discussion about this stuff, great topic and I'm glad you and Mark took the time to discuss it long form as it deserves
Adult?.. Like?.. "Adult" ..I haven't watched it Yet, but I thought they were just great Friends, Good Buddies and all that Malarkey?.. As long as it sticks to the conversation and not the Visual I could probably still stick around, thanks for the Warning though!
:D
Mark’s headphone/microphone combo KILLED me 😂 that’s just an awesome engineer making awesome engineer decisions.
Appreciate the candid conversation on this topic. Own Rolex and Tudor clomages by San Martin and Pagani. All are fun to wear and well done. For me, they aren’t special in the way my other watches are, but they do make fun beaters.
I began collecting in 1969 when I took an entire 2 week paycheck ($75.00…..yep, when $75.00 bucks would buy you something. At 15 my options were limited but Zales sold a bi-compax non, hacking, manual wind, BAYLOR chronograph. I only had the $75.00 bucks. If I had an extra $20.00 I could have owned a tri-compax with a 12 hour totalizer…same “Baylor” watch. It was literally made on the same line, same assemblers, exact same parts……made by Heuer. It was called the poor man’s Heuer. So yes, the “ made by the same assembly line” has been a thing for awhile. I wore that watch last week. Full Service in 2017. Super fine concept for the show TGV! Thanks Marc!
TGV and Marc. I’ve unloaded the luxury brands in my collection in favor of the San Martins and Orient Stars because they make excellent watches. Even Proxima are very acceptable. And I’m happy with performance and looks of all of them. Great video. You guys need your own show. So much fun!!
Great comment. I've also relatively recently discovered Baltany - beautiful and very well made watches.
Hey TGV, constructive criticism if you're gonna read it: I find it contradictory that you always talk about how you can't judge a watch you've never experienced, but here you're doing exactly that.
Some PD watches go for around $60. What's the worst that could happen if you bought one of them to try out? If you actually look into it, you're gonna realize that most people don't have any issues with them, and the ones who do are covered by buyer protection anyway.
I also find it rather strange that you have a video called "why the invicta pro diver is the best watch under $100", but rates chinese brands so low even when they're substantially better in every way aside from brand history. Plus, there are a lot of original designs from Chinese brands as well.
I think you're missing out on a lot of great stuff!
Agreed. I'm not sure what the problem is with these watches but you're right - it's starting to look like ignorance (which is something I never thought I'd say about this channel).
I love my Steinhart GMT. It has an ETA movement and it is bullet proof. I've abused this thing so much and it is a tank. I've owned the Rolex 16710 Pepsi and the Tudor GMT and it's hard to believe how well the Steinhart holds up. Both Rolex brands had issues and had to be serviced within two years of owning. I've had the Steinhart now going on 5 years with ZERO issues...
Love my Steinhart. Incredible piece for the price, the dimensions of their 39mm models are perfect for me, they're so accurate out of the box, and the bezel action is the best I've ever felt.
I have the Ocean Thirty-nine Adventure (explorer homage) and I think it is great. I have it running about -3s/d. It is comfortable, looks great, and is easy to read. I appreciate that it is a Rolex design and that they should get some credit for that, but I will not pay $8,000 for a watch. The Steinhart was $450. I'm not trying to fool anyone into thinking that I have a Rolex. Most people that I know wouldn't even recognize that an Explorer is a Rolex because it isn't very blingy.
Fake
@@sfstoltenberg I've got the same one,it's so good it's insane that it's only £450
@@jankay8569 so's your face
i have an ocean one 39mm as well, the premium blue/black version. it is my favourite watch, easily :-)
so much value for the price😊
Thanks for dropping this video. This is extremely educational and gives a different perspective. Amazing stuff💯
I have the PD1701 Mission to Alaska. For $80, amazing. Today, my Steeldive SD1970 arrived. Stunning for $74. Value for FUN. (Edit: The lume on the SD1970 is ridiculous. Ridiculously good.)
Proper banter, chaps! Enjoyed it very much and helped me discover some new brands, Lorier, San Martin, Steeldive, etc. Well done!
I have to say, the way Mark dealt with the situation with the podcast you mentioned was very dignified. There is a man who doesn’t put the opinions of others above his own 👌😎
Great conversation! I have a pagani (paul newman homage), it absolutely rocks. I use daily to time my swim workouts
What i especially like are homage brands who do a better job than the original brand. Like my Heimdallr Monster (milled clasp and sapphire crystal) or Tactical frog VS75 v2 (Speedtimer/Daytonal) with a ceramic bezel and no ugly date cutout. All at 1/3 the price of a Seiko.
N at what fraction of a Daytona, eh? 😊
The Steeldive 1970 is pretty amazing for the money. I'm off on honeymoon to near Mombassa at the end of the month and the Steeldive will be on my wrist. Great to be able to appreciate a classic design without having to have a years wages of the guy serving you a beer sitting on your wrist
it's too big
@@garynico9872
Your wrist is too small.
@@e28forever30Now Now Children! Go sit in the corner!
Happy that Steinhart showed well on your ranking. I absolutely love the style (copied or not), quality and affordability of their line.
I have two, think they’re terrific value overall but misalignment seems to be quite common. Not that anyone else notices…
Seem to hold their value relatively well, too, surpricingly.
Sold both of mine after 5 or so years of ownership. Lost about $70-$80 on the diver, but gained about the same on the (discontinued) pilot.
So basically rented two watches for 5 years for free. Not bad for such cheap watches.
Got one as well, no issues whatsoever. my favourite watch
Just in time for another marc video! Man I watched all the old episodes twice already so it was great to see this!
Well, the various San Martin's of the world also do homages of vintage watches that we couldn't possibly buy (and only absolute watch geeks would recognize anyway) so I'd have to place those higher than 2 but otherwise I more or less agree.
This was definitely a fascinating video by two of my favorite YTIs. I very seldom watch 15 minute videos. I just don’t have the time, but this one intrigued me and I’m glad I watched it. I’ll start by saying that I watched many of both of your videos in the early days of my collecting and you both helped educate me and to influence my tastes in this hobby, so thanks to both of you for helping me to get started. I’ve also heard from many other people with similar experience with each of you. You’ve done a great deal to encourage people in this hobby and you should be proud.
I really liked the way you broke this down into the various categories and rated them. Obviously well thought out Tristano. As for my own choices, I’m pretty much in line with with both of you, I draw the line at fakes and have softened by stance on homage is over the years And have come to the same conclusion that Mark mentioned, “Let’s face, it all watches are homages to some extent.” I’ve been tempted a few times to buy complete homages to more expensive watches beyond my budget limits, but I’ve come to realize that every time I look at that watch, I’ll be thinking, “I wish it were…“.
Thanks again to both of you for a very interesting well thought out and well produced piece.
Great Intro, As Always! Amazing to see the team back in the Game!
Love the videos you make with mark. Amazing job!
Nothing like a great bond-like music intro! Love that! Harkens back to a better time! Thanks for the discussion! Mark mentioned Zelos and NTH as “better microbrands” but according to the final scoring, that would put them with Pagani in category 5. I would think they should rank a little higher since they are original designs but influenced by heritage styling, vs just straight copies, no? Especially since they’re not even moonlighting like category.
Funny I literally was just having the same debate over the new Steinhart Architect release and with all these new Genta influenced releases, you always have your finger on the watch communities pulse. This was Awesomely timed so glad you covered this subject.
I own a Steinhart Ocean one 39mm watch, one of their premium versions. it is easily my favorite watch. Impeccably build.
You guys are the best - love these episodes.
I’m not a collector at the expensive end of the spectrum, but I’m a bit weird about when and where I wear certain watches. For example, I’ll happily wear my Pagani Speedy at home all day long and I really love it; exceptional value and well executed. However, if I’m going out with friends or for dinner etc, I grab an original brand/design watch (anything from GShock to Tissot or a micro brand), to avoid having to explain that I’m not wearing an Omega, to anyone who happens to notice my wrist and says ‘nice watch’.
Maybe Pagani is my guilty pleasure 😊
this video feels so wholesome and warm, we call this kinda stuff "lampovo" from the word lamp. Like incandescent lamp with warm yellow light that gives you comfort and you talking with your friends this whole thing is really wholesome, that's what it is!
Appreciate you both. I've seen some watch reviewers with an inexplicable dislike for homages, something I don't understand. They have a place in my collection to represent pieces that I will never own either due to cost or sheer availability. San Martin and Steinhart are the quality sweet spot for me personally, I couldn't get passed the Pagani and Steeldive quality. The bracelet is what gives a cheap watch away. That said, San Martin has been impressing lately.
Never heard of WMT before but I appreciate learning about them!
I think there's a difference between homage brands referencing mass produced brands and referencing hand built/finished luxury watches. One's using modern tools to reduce margins, the other is taking the proverbial urine. Certainly makes me feel better about my Steeldive 1970, which is better than pretty much any Seiko at five times the price.
Excellent video, as always, gentlemen. I have come close to buying Pagani, San Martin, Steeldive and Seestern on a few occasions, but have never been able to pull the trigger. Nonetheless, I love homage watches, most notably my Tudor Heritage Ranger and Heuer Autavia. In terms of affordable watches, Squale and Islander are at the top of my list as both offer something different and punch far above their price. Islander #3 is making its way to me right now! 😊
I just was rewatching a older watch talk. I’m very excited for this! Thankyou guys again, now I don’t have to listen to talk radio haha.
With regard to homages I would say 1) we should all appreciate watch enthusiasts no matter what watch they wear and 2) just because we own an homage (and please remember an homage is different than a fake i.e. not trying pass itself off as the original no matter how close it looks) it doesn't mean that we can't appreciate other more expensive, and or harder to obtain originals or don't aspire/ are working towards owning them. We are all at different income levels and different stages in our watch collecting journeys.
They're not really homages though. They're 1for1 fake copies with a different logo.
@@frankdux5693no. They are homages. Faithful homages.
This does go a bit past reality, bro. See, since we all got different income levels, I have to live with not being able to buy a Ferrari car, or a Lange & Söhne watch. I simply can't afford it. Now, what do I gain when buying a Fiat car with Ferrari emblem on it??? Not a true Ferrari anyway. It's just about being true, last not least to yourself. I recently heard a watch talk about a used car trader that advertised a car so the talk host, but wore a watch that was obviously not genuine. He said he could not take the seller serious from the moment he noticed. I see his point...
Often enough, yearning for brands like Rolex is waste of time anyway. Imagine having 10-15k cash at hand and walking into a Rolex store, and not being able to pass them your heaps of money that you want to part with because they can't give you what you want. I can't take such a brand serious, especially when what they deliver for their price is so much bread-and-butter. Look at what you get for that kind of money at Glashütte Original, for example... If you apreciate watches for their craft, your view on this topic will never be the same.
In addition, there are brands that I can afford and that are good brands, they work to create or maintain their heritage and their own designs. Look at Longines, for example, or get into microbrands. There is much to be apreciated, and earns to be bought more than a simple copy of a watch that is not even truly outstanding if it wasn't for the hype...
Great video, entertaining, and educational as always! I agree with Mark on what degree of homage I'm okay with. I don't like blatant copies, I prefer when there's enough changes to make it unique. My isl-20 and isl-38 are good examples. The diver looks similar to the skx, but has many upgrades and design tweaks. The Brookville also has many differences from a datejust (case size, case shape and finishing, no cyclops, display case back.)
I've bought my share of watches off AliExpress, and I wear my San Martin SN020 (the 39mm first gen "Explorer" homage with the printed dial and vintage lume) almost daily and love it. I also have the Steeldive 1970 and its a great watch for the money, hands down but the next watch I am saving for is the Seiko SNJ025, God knows I have watched a few reviews of that one lol Ali can be a great place to pick a watch up but when I add up the money spent I would have had that Arnie and more. I also own two Islanders that I really love and I recommend LIW to anyone who ask me about buying watches. Great video and glad to see the discussion!
A very informative and interesting video. Yourself and Mark gave me some food for thought on your scores regarding different watch 'types' Thanks.
So much good info on watches at the macro level from 2 guys who really know their stuff ❤
Little difference between Steinhart and San Martin , except price . San Martin put their own touches , construct and finish superbly and even do original designs or homages of deleted vintage watches. They are miles ahead of Pagani with quality and finish . You should check them out as most of us would never afford the original
Steinhart is a Swiss-made watch with some cachet, San Martin has none.
I try different china brands but for me definitely Steeldive and Cadisen are the best. I 100% recommend
do you think steeldive and addiesdive are related? because I don't have enough money, so I plan to buy a submarine model addiesdive
@@syahrulk9294Yes they have same suppliers in some cases offices located in same city.
I love my PD’s! Also mine citizen, casio, seiko’s and so on. First i didnt tought id like that and that they are bad. But i fell in love after a explorer hommage. My speedy hommages are amazing!
great video. The yin and yang of tgv against marks pragmatic, engineering, business side is gold. kudos to mark for doing this vid. it takes balls to participate when you have your own lines of watches. of my seiko's casio's Fortis, alpina, citizens, and squale.... the ice blue waffle dial islander samurai is still my fave. 👍 The islander monster sea foam is 2nd.
Very good video and spot in for where “types” of watches and not necessarily brands ranked.
A message/request for Marc…I have notification turned on for Islander watches and am waiting for ISL-155 to be in stock again…please make it soon 🙏❤
Nice one guys. Fun video!
Laughed out loud about the notifications at the end.
The watches I like are the 'clomages' (collage) rather than the homage. I think this could have been another category 😉I would define it in three different ways with three San Martin watches. Firstly, putting together different features from a range of watches to form a new variant (Rolex 39mm Explorer but with submariner dial and boxed sapphire SN20G). Second, sympathetically modernise a vintage watch with new materials ( Rolex 5517, boxed sapphire and ceramic bezel insert, SN006G). Thirdly, fix what watch enthusiasts don't like about a particular model, (Tudor Pepsi GMT which is too big 41 x 15, SN0109 40 x 13) or (Tudor 42mm Pelagos which is too big, 42 x 15, SN0121G 39 x 13, no helium escape valve). Respectable watch companies do this a lot. For instance, the Omega pre-bond was a Rolex Submariner in an intergrated bracelet case. You also mentioned the moonwatch as an original design. Try googling Rodania Geometer than appears to have first been introduced in 1954. Uncanny I would say.
Love it. You guys are great. Keep up the great work!
ALWAYS AWESOME. Love you guys together. Thank you!
Thank you Gentlemen. That was immensely interesting.
I wasn't even interested in watch collecting, when I came across The Urban Gentry. I was looking for information about a Seiko SKX, and why they were so well known.
And now I just love listening to these guys talk about watches. The knowledge and history is so fascinating.
Thanks TGV
I always learn something from these.
👍
I must say that Lorier in hand at the recent show in San Francisco really impressed me. So did Nevada Grenchen and FEARS watches. And, VAER never ceases to impress me. My favorite homage that I own is the v1 of the dirty dozen by VAER with the hand wound movement. It faithfully expresses the design language of the original MOD contracted watch in modern materials and with 100m WR. The only niggle is that it doesn't have hacking. That is not really an issue. Back hacking is not brain surgery.
I was super excited to watch this video! I thoroughly enjoyed the process of talking it through from
a business aspect and design aspect. I’ve had a Pagani it was the BB Ceramic homage, it felt cheap and lightweight on wrist, so I sold it to a buddy who didn’t care as much😂. I do own both a Steeldive and San Martin and believe they showcase very good value for money. As someone who isn’t planning to own a Submariner or Speedmaster ‘57 I enjoy both of those watches because from $75-$400 I’m fine with paying for pretty good brushing and good lume. I’m a lume enthusiast, I pretty much won’t keep a watch that doesn’t have at least decent lume. I enjoy that I just have a handsome watch on my wrist. I can’t say enough good things about my San Martin maroon dial Speedmaster’57 it’s a handsome piece. Although it’s taken some get used too since it’s my first hand wind movement in my collection. Anyways Thanks TGV and Mark!!!
Excellent topic. Very applicable to the current watch scene. Insightful rationale for the rankings. Enjoyed! 😊
I appreciate the transparency and honesty of both of you guys.
I just bought my first automatic watch, an Aragon Dive Master 4 EVO. And it's amazing. I would really love to hear either one of your opinions on "affordable" brands like Aragon and Deep Blue. I understand that they make "big" watches, but I would like to hear what you guys think of the quality.
Hopefully you guys get to read and respond.
I have a Steinhart Premium vintage GMT and a Sugess Platona Homage and would reccommend the Steinhart as a great watch and Sugess as the cheap homages.
Really loving the intro TGV, your grandfather looked like a real Gentleman. Still inspiring you and the Gentry to this day 😊
Great education on homage watches, detailed and informative as usual, many thanks gentlemen.
Great one boys.. thanks always for the content!
I’m glad you mentioned Bamford, I’m a big admire of theirs and wondered what your opinion was and where you see them positioned.
Nice a video from TGV! So no bedtime now. I recently bought a flighmaster and a NDC strap. I am very happy with it. Best wishes from Switzerland!
Haha, thank you, enjoy and Buona Notte!
Best regards,
TGV
Great video as always. I agree with TGV in regards to Lorier doing vintage inspired pieces having owned a Falcon 2 model, they just do it so well.
Question: Other than Christopher Ward & Doxa, what other brands used an offset at the 9:00 for the name placement on the dial? Great vid! Thanks
Some coverage of Chinese watches on this channel is very welcome - thank you both. A few thoughts:
1 Marc did really well in this video considering the topic was a surprise.
2 I liked the scale of 'homageness' but, to illustrate the axiom that there's nothing new under the sun, your example 10 (a modern Speedmaster) may not be a 10. The original Speedmaster itself could be viewed as a homage to the Rodania Geometer circa 1950.
3 San Martin make many original pieces now. They followed the same path Marc did - learn by copying then do your own. SM clearly want to be a stand alone brand but they're struggling with identity and they need a really good designer. Right now they're morphing into a moonlight brand like Steinhart - except they're better quality and 1/4 the price.
4 SM, Baltany etc shouldn't be grouped with Pagani - especially in terms of QC as they're miles apart. On the flip side, SM et al cant do a ss sports watch with a Seiko movement for 50 quid. I would love you and Marc to cover this because I think it could be disruptive. If you're a 'normal person', why save up and spend more for a warranty etc - at 50 quid, is it essentially disposable?
5 Riesling?????? 😁
Now you're half in this tent, reviews would be a good next step. Try San Martin's very loosely Submersible-ish SN049 or a Baltany - they specialise in small, vintage or military-inspired watches I think you would appreciate. Buy direct from them rather than AE. Take care both.
I really like Dan Henry because you can collect horological history.
I like Steinhart because you can own a dream watch that are worth their salt but not unreachable.
This works well with one big gun that is in the Rolex/ Breitling/Omega realm.
In the end 99,9% of people couldn’t care less if it’s not an Apple Watch. So do it for yourself. It’s a hobby.
I've always wanted a true flyback manual chronograph. So I just pulled the trigger on the Sugess homage of the Blancpain Air Command pilot watch. For 400 CAD it's the most I've ever spent on a watch. It's one of the best copies and has very positive reviews from everyone that's reviewed it I could never afford the 15,000$ for the original. I'm totally happy with this purchase and am greatfull for some of these homages. When the homage is built sloppily and with questionable movements that's when i would not consider buying one. Thanks for your informative videos. I've been a fan for at least 6 years.
Very interesting idea on homages by a defined level. I have both homage and name brand. I am starting to like Seiko and homages with NH movements more. they can be set for very accurate timing and in 5 years just replace the movement.
My experience of Pagani is not great but some people swear by them. I dabbled in homages for a while but always ended up selling them on with the exception of two San Martins I own. One is a sub homage and the other is their interpretation of the vintage Bond Rolex. Both are very well made and at under £200 each they are worth hanging on to.
Oh, he'll, I loved this (as usual). This one's rather timely, since I just purchased a Seiko 5 Sports GMT (which arrived PDQ from Island...thanks, Marc!), and came across a video comparing it (003/Blueberry/Batman, which was my choice) directly with Rolex' GMT Master II, with the creator of the video pointing out the strong individuality of each design: while some look atvthe colorway and shout "look who Seiko's slavishly apibg!", someone with even a passing interest in watches won't likely confuse one with the other. That has me putting Seiko fairly high in the "good-guy" digits on that list, though I doubt we could agree on an exact number 😅
The Boyz are back. My absolutely favorite show!!! ⌚
Excellent collaboration from 2 legends of the watch world. The best collaboration I'm hoping for is the Rangemaster 2 😉
My next watch and a homage will be a SteelDive 1964.
I've got a few that came out low on your lists - but a really reasonable and balanced discussion.
I think the thing that people tend to miss with the Pagani's and similar price range watches, is that they're not necessarily produced primarily for western markets. They obviously sell decent units in to it, but in massive markets like India where average buying power is low, often the option to just save up to the next tier isnt there, and in their price bracket, there are very few competitive main stream options in terms of spec-for-spec alternatives
Great information!
Great Information!
They are all aimed at the Chinese market tbh. That's why its almost always 90% rolex clones. I'd buy a San Martin but not a Pagani tbh. For a Pagani, you can get nicer Orients around the same price point which are probably better made. San Martin's ETA clone watches are more interesting than the NH-35 type stuff imho.
@@marcustulliuscicero9140An Orient for the same price as a Pagani that's better made? Nonsense.
I have a Mako 2 which was about $200. The bracelet is shit. Hollow endlinks, folded metal clasp, push pins for bracelet adjustment. The case itself is good, except for the shit plastic bezel insert that gets scratched easily.
I have a Pagani GMT which is very similar in style. Ceramic bezel, no scratches. But more importantly, the bracelet puts Orient to shame. Solid endlinks, milled clasp that's MILES AHEAD of Orient's clap. Screw in pins for bracelet adjustment.
I'll never buy another Orient again. Don't get me wrong, I like it. But at that price point, I'll just buy another Pagani. It's so much better.
@@marcustulliuscicero9140 Absolute nonsense. San Martin are shite; read any blog on Chinese watches, and see the complaints about them. For vfm, Pagani are miles ahead of the crap you listed. Jeezo...
Interesting discussion Gentlemen and can be very divisive this topic.
I recently got the Pagani "Mission to Alaska" after going back and forth on pulling the trigger. Was pleasantly surprised that Im very fond of it albeit after swapping the horrendous strap.
I do agree if Pagani would fix their distribution, up the QC control and come up with innovative and original designs and continue bringing value for money it can be potentially be a genuine "brand" to reckon with.
anyone know who that podcast they were talking about was? Mark you're the man!
I love Casio, but I certainly will be adding a Speedy and Sub homage to the collection from Pagani as an everyday durable work watch. I have my sights set on a Bulova Lunar Pilot this year and love “space” watches. I love the Citizen Group, Casio’s with Miyota movements, Citizen Eco-Drive’s, Bulova, and hopefully a cheap Alpina Startimer Quartz.
I have the Pagani Speedy homage that I wear at work. It’s a very good watch and has held up perfectly. I work on a drill rig so it gets plenty of abuse. I also have the genuine Omega Speedmaster.
The Pagani looks similar at first glance but it is in no way a 1 to 1 homage. The Pagani is thicker, is bigger in general, wears bigger, the dial is very different, the bezel sits higher, the genuine Speedy has no rehaut where the Pagani does, the crystal has a completely different profile, and of course, the sub dials sit in different locations due to the use of a different movement. There really isn’t a 1 to 1 homage of the Speedmaster like there is for watches like the Sub, Daytona, Seamaster, ect.
With that said, I really enjoy my Paganis (I have the Daytona homage as well)
If you’re looking for a nice Sub homage, check out Sugess. They make a good one.
Great vid guys! Always got the best content when ya'll team up for one of these episodes. One thing regarding Islander, in the beginning, wasn't he making Islander watches that were like the recently DISCONTINUED SKX? I mean, he wasn't homaging a watch that was cheap and readily available anymore. Seiko discontinued it and the prices started to rise. SKX was never my thing, so I wouldn't have bought it or an Islander that was homaging it, but Islander's Northport & Port Jeff are definitely on my to buy list. But haters gonna hate, so F 'em.
Yes, that's how I remember it. SKX was discontinued and Marc had enough infrastructure there within his own supplier list to make entire watches with UPGRADED features that Seiko refused to give us. I certainly enjoy my $300 Islander more than I would a $400 non-hacking, mineral crystal SKX.
@@ErikL727 Facts! Exactly how I remember it. Upgraded with nh35s/356s, sapphire crystal, etc.
Good episode. I have a Pagani Daytona homage and a Pagani Speedmaster homage in my collection. They are both flawless and a pleasure to own and wear. I also have a San Martin 1016 Explorer homage that cost three times the price of either Pagani. The San Martin has problems with the movement, lume, caseback and clasp that have all detracted from my ownership experience.
There is nothing wrong with Pagani Design. Their value, build quality, and design are brilliant. Never been scammed, had excellent customer service, and now able to enjoy iconic watch styles that I can no longer afford since my entire Swiss watch collection was stolen by my ex-wife. The huge asset loss and trauma caused me to not wear a watch for a decade. Thank heavens for discovering Pagani Design to rekindle my passion for watches this year. I may have lost my Omegas and Rolexes, and numerous boutique marques, but now able to wear an Omega homage today, and be impressed for what it is. My PD-1685 Omega Seamaster 300M homage looks and feels amazing.
Never had a any issues with Aliexpress. I actually find them much better to deal with than Amazon or Ebay where I have been stung in the past and left in the lurch.
I started buying Ali-X watches because i love watches and got fed up of changing batteries on my quartz watches ever April / October clock change. Genuine Seiko NH35 movements with Sapphire glass and screw down crowns for under £80 in most cases. Not had a problem with any of them and once i change the straps on few ( there are a lot of very similar Oyster style cases with different dials) they start have their own personalities. My Pagani Explorer one homage improved so much when i put a black leather strap on it. Tempted by a PD Airking homage using probably the same case as the explorer for £42 delivered (using some Ali-X coins).
Well done, great discussion. The thing is for a replica homage watch is that I don’t want to buy an obvious homage that is more than 10-15% price of the watch it is homaging
The first automatic watch I bought was a Revue Thommen diver. I liked the look of the Rolex submariner, but could not afford it, and the RT diver looks just like it from across the room, so I bought it (severely discounted). It has a Sellita SW200 movement and actually keeps better time than my Tudor and Hamilton both of which have ETA movements. Given what I now know about watches, I wouldn't buy the RT again, but I have to admit that I still enjoy wearing it on occasion.
Like or loathe the advantage of Pagani is their watches are worn. Snobbery aside, Pagani produce a decent worth for the price for those on a budget. Get the look and feel of a Rolex today for 1/100th of the price. Clothes, shoes, fragrances, bags, watches - these issues have been there for a long time.
Massive San Martin fan here !!
Good video guys. I'm a 5 and up but my pocketbook wants to be higher. These days I'm looking at Seiko and Citizen. Till my degree is done. Then I have a shortlist and work toward the grail watch.
I had a Steeldive Squale homage - the bead blasted blue 1521. I bought it used for about £80, loved it for about 6 months then was lucky enough to get a Squale 152 bead blasted blue. I sold the Steeldive for £80... but I did get to look at them both side by side. very different watches in the flesh, different shaped crystal, different bezel insert. main thing is, the finishing on the Steeldive was every bit as good as the Squale (but very different), I loved every minute I wore the Steeldive, the Steeldive only encouraged my hunger for the Squale.
The Squale is a keeper for me. It was the first watch I seriously hungered for and the Steeldive homage i owned did nothing to change that.